Hanuman: This gentleman is the
director of the Great Universal Fraternity here in Mexico. They're the biggest,
probably the biggest yoga society in South America. They are following one guru,
a European, it's called Bhakta (indistinct), and he's very interested to have
your darsana.Prabhupada: (indistinct) We are worshiping Krsna,
Yogesvara.
Hrdayananda: You speak English?
Director: No.
Hrdayananda: (Spanish) (translates throughout)
Prabhupada: ...master of all mystic yoga. Yatra yogesvaro harih. What is that verse? Yatra yogesvara, Bhagavad-gita. Who will find out? Yes, in the last portion of the Eighteenth Chapter. Yatra dhanur-dharah partho yatra yogesvaro harih. I think it begins with yatra.
Hrdayananda: Oh, I know where it is. Yatra yogesvaro harih. Here. This is yatra yogesvarah krsnah [Bg. 18.78]. Read that? Yatra yogesvarah krsno yatra partho dhanur-dharah, tat... (door opens)
Hanuman: This is Mr. Coruna Cortez. He's the administrator of the Institute of Science and Education. He said he is a philosopher.
Prabhupada: Karuna?
Mr. Cortez: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez.
Prabhupada: From India? Karuna?
Hrdayananda: Mexican.
Prabhupada: Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna.
Hanuman: And the lady here is a psychologist.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hrdayananda: I can explain to them what I'm doing. (Spanish)
yatra yogesvarah krsno
yatra partho dhanur-dharah
tatra srir vijayo bhutir
dhruva nitir matir mama
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: Krsna is the topmost yogi, Yogesvara. [break]
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) [break]
Hrdayananda: He said he has studied all of Western philosophy, he's not that familiar with Eastern philosophy, and his present interest is in the philosophy of anthropology. He's interested in studying man, his body, also the spirit, how man can transcend his body, and that he has come here because he wants to learn something about the philosophy of the East.
Prabhupada: And this girl is psychologist?
Psychologist (Lady): (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She works in an institute of psychology, and she is particularly studying human conduct, why people act the way they do, and she's also interested in learning something about our philosophy.
Prabhupada: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity?
Psychologist: No.
Prabhupada: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements -- earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body -- mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. Read it.
Hrdayananda:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: So the soul transmigrates to another body. That is the evolutionary process for anthropology, basic principle of anthropology. So in Darwin's theory there is no admission of the soul. Therefore it is imperfect. The soul transmigrates from one type of body to another type. And then there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So when we get this human form of body we get all intelligence. And we should utilize this intelligence how to stop this transmigration of the soul from one body to another. So what is your opinion?
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: (translating) If there's a certain criteria of proof or a certain evidence that we can know for certain that there actually is such transmigration of the soul?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like the baby is, the soul is, transmigrated from baby's body to child's body, child's body to boy's body, boy's body to youthful body, so the body vanishes, and because the soul remains, he gets another body. Now I am old man. I remember I had a child's body, I was lying down. I quite remember it. But that body is not existing. So this is the example. Everyone has experience. This is transmigration of the soul from one body to another. And at the time of death, the psychological condition of the mind will carry me to a suitable body, and I shall enter into the womb of my mother through the semina of the father, and the mother will give that a particular type of body, and when it is completely manufactured, then I come out and begin my again. Therefore we find varieties of forms, but in each and every form there is the soul. Now, in the human form of life, we should utilize our intelligence that "This constant change of body, how it can be stopped?" And we should remain in our eternal body because I am eternal, but psychologically I am simply changing different forms of body, and at the time of change of body I have to undergo so many sufferings. To remain within the womb of the mother for ten months in packed up condition, it is a very terrible punishment. But for each new birth, we have to undertake this terrible suffering. Sometimes nowadays they're being killed. So to avoid all these dangers, one should try to remain in his spiritual body so that there will be no more chance of accepting material... Find out this, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9].
Hrdayananda:
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Hrdayananda: (reads Spanish)
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She wants to know what disciplines we have, what practices we have. Also she had a misunderstanding. She said "for the beginners," so I was explaining it was the same for the beginners.
Prabhupada: The main principle is, to understand spiritual subject matter, one must be sinless. You find that verse,
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
[Bg. 7.28]
[break] ...ess, more we can understand spiritual matters. Therefore among our students, the four principles... [ Explain. Yes, are prohibited.
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: He says if to be sinless is not something more profound than simply restricting the body from some things, if there's not a more profound aspect of sinlessness.
Prabhupada: The body is consider... Just like if you have got high fever, you cannot act your brain.
Hrdayananda: You cannot?
Prabhupada: Act your brain. Similarly, this is also like fever, sinful fever, so you cannot act your brain for understanding higher spiritual matters.
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: He's saying, "What is sin, then?"
Prabhupada: That sin you have explained. These are the four principles of sinful life. This can be avoided. Just like these European, American boys. They were also addicted to these sinful activities, but now they have given up, and they are understanding Krsna consciousness very nicely. Material life means sinful life. Therefore we have to act materially under regulation. Just like a man suffering from some disease, he has to live under the direction of the physician. Otherwise his sufferings will continue. [break]
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of.
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita the social dimension is described, catur varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Find out this verse. You read.
Hrdayananda:
catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam
[Bg. 4.13]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments -- the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg -- so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Krsna consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: If our chanting is a form of prayer?
Prabhupada: Yes. Chanting is a spiritual method for cleansing our heart. Because all dirty things are there in the heart, if the heart becomes clean, then we can understand things as they are. The first misunderstanding, that everyone is thinking that he is this body, this is due to ignorance. So when one is cleansed he can understand that he is not this body; he is separate from the body; he lives within this body. Therefore when the person leaves this body it is dead lump of matter. So people are giving more importance to the lump of matter than to the real person within the body. Just like a bird is within the cage, the cage is being washed very nicely and no food to the bird. Therefore the bird is in disturbed condition, and he's crying, "Khan, khan, khan, khan." This is going on. They're giving stress on the cage, not the bird within the cage. Neither do they know that the living being is within this material body.
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: Can someone achieve self-realization without a guru or does he need a guru?
Prabhupada: How do you think like that? Is there anything within this you world which can be learned without guru? Even if you become an ordinary carpenter, you have to learn from an expert carpenter. So how you can imagine to learn the topmost subject matter without guru? This is... The Vedic injunction is, therefore, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], samit-panih, like that. We must have a bona fide guru to train us in the understanding of spiritual matter. Guru means who knows the thing, who can teach you. That is guru, not a humbug guru, but guru means one who knows. Tattva-darsinah, one who has seen the truth, he can become guru. Find this verse,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad-jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
Hrdayananda: (Spanish) Thank you.
Prabhupada: So I have to go, bathroom. Give them prasadam. (end)
Hrdayananda: You speak English?
Director: No.
Hrdayananda: (Spanish) (translates throughout)
Prabhupada: ...master of all mystic yoga. Yatra yogesvaro harih. What is that verse? Yatra yogesvara, Bhagavad-gita. Who will find out? Yes, in the last portion of the Eighteenth Chapter. Yatra dhanur-dharah partho yatra yogesvaro harih. I think it begins with yatra.
Hrdayananda: Oh, I know where it is. Yatra yogesvaro harih. Here. This is yatra yogesvarah krsnah [Bg. 18.78]. Read that? Yatra yogesvarah krsno yatra partho dhanur-dharah, tat... (door opens)
Hanuman: This is Mr. Coruna Cortez. He's the administrator of the Institute of Science and Education. He said he is a philosopher.
Prabhupada: Karuna?
Mr. Cortez: Cortez. Arjeo Coruna Cortez.
Prabhupada: From India? Karuna?
Hrdayananda: Mexican.
Prabhupada: Oh, Karuna is also an Indian name, Karuna.
Hanuman: And the lady here is a psychologist.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hrdayananda: I can explain to them what I'm doing. (Spanish)
yatra yogesvarah krsno
yatra partho dhanur-dharah
tatra srir vijayo bhutir
dhruva nitir matir mama
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: Krsna is the topmost yogi, Yogesvara. [break]
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish) [break]
Hrdayananda: He said he has studied all of Western philosophy, he's not that familiar with Eastern philosophy, and his present interest is in the philosophy of anthropology. He's interested in studying man, his body, also the spirit, how man can transcend his body, and that he has come here because he wants to learn something about the philosophy of the East.
Prabhupada: And this girl is psychologist?
Psychologist (Lady): (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She works in an institute of psychology, and she is particularly studying human conduct, why people act the way they do, and she's also interested in learning something about our philosophy.
Prabhupada: If you have studied about the subtle body of living entity?
Psychologist: No.
Prabhupada: First of all, this, this gross body made of five material elements -- earth, water, air, fire, like that. This we can see with our eyes, but we cannot see the mind, intelligence and ego. Although everyone knows there is mind, there is intelligence. So when this body is annihilated, the subtle body -- mind, intelligence, ego-carries the soul to another gross body. This is the process of transmigration of the soul. Now, what do you think of this process?
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She says in her... In the field of psychology also they admit also, they admit the existence of forces beyond the gross elements, and although ordinarily they do not deal with that, she is very interested to know about it.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the law. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, "The soul is not annihilated after the destruction of the body." You find out that verse, na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. Read it.
Hrdayananda:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: So the soul transmigrates to another body. That is the evolutionary process for anthropology, basic principle of anthropology. So in Darwin's theory there is no admission of the soul. Therefore it is imperfect. The soul transmigrates from one type of body to another type. And then there are 8,400,000 forms of body. So when we get this human form of body we get all intelligence. And we should utilize this intelligence how to stop this transmigration of the soul from one body to another. So what is your opinion?
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: (translating) If there's a certain criteria of proof or a certain evidence that we can know for certain that there actually is such transmigration of the soul?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like the baby is, the soul is, transmigrated from baby's body to child's body, child's body to boy's body, boy's body to youthful body, so the body vanishes, and because the soul remains, he gets another body. Now I am old man. I remember I had a child's body, I was lying down. I quite remember it. But that body is not existing. So this is the example. Everyone has experience. This is transmigration of the soul from one body to another. And at the time of death, the psychological condition of the mind will carry me to a suitable body, and I shall enter into the womb of my mother through the semina of the father, and the mother will give that a particular type of body, and when it is completely manufactured, then I come out and begin my again. Therefore we find varieties of forms, but in each and every form there is the soul. Now, in the human form of life, we should utilize our intelligence that "This constant change of body, how it can be stopped?" And we should remain in our eternal body because I am eternal, but psychologically I am simply changing different forms of body, and at the time of change of body I have to undergo so many sufferings. To remain within the womb of the mother for ten months in packed up condition, it is a very terrible punishment. But for each new birth, we have to undertake this terrible suffering. Sometimes nowadays they're being killed. So to avoid all these dangers, one should try to remain in his spiritual body so that there will be no more chance of accepting material... Find out this, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9].
Hrdayananda:
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Hrdayananda: (reads Spanish)
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: She wants to know what disciplines we have, what practices we have. Also she had a misunderstanding. She said "for the beginners," so I was explaining it was the same for the beginners.
Prabhupada: The main principle is, to understand spiritual subject matter, one must be sinless. You find that verse,
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
[Bg. 7.28]
[break] ...ess, more we can understand spiritual matters. Therefore among our students, the four principles... [ Explain. Yes, are prohibited.
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: He says if to be sinless is not something more profound than simply restricting the body from some things, if there's not a more profound aspect of sinlessness.
Prabhupada: The body is consider... Just like if you have got high fever, you cannot act your brain.
Hrdayananda: You cannot?
Prabhupada: Act your brain. Similarly, this is also like fever, sinful fever, so you cannot act your brain for understanding higher spiritual matters.
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: He's saying, "What is sin, then?"
Prabhupada: That sin you have explained. These are the four principles of sinful life. This can be avoided. Just like these European, American boys. They were also addicted to these sinful activities, but now they have given up, and they are understanding Krsna consciousness very nicely. Material life means sinful life. Therefore we have to act materially under regulation. Just like a man suffering from some disease, he has to live under the direction of the physician. Otherwise his sufferings will continue. [break]
Mr. Cortez: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: I'm going to translate piece by piece so I can tell you exactly what he's saying. He's saying that he understands perfectly well that a human being should look for a way for self-control and to control the physical force within him, but there's also another dimension in the human being which is a social dimension which also has to be taken care of.
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita the social dimension is described, catur varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Find out this verse. You read.
Hrdayananda:
catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam
[Bg. 4.13]
(Spanish)
Prabhupada: Social platform, there must be four classes of men, divisions. Just like this body is divided into four departments -- the brain, the arm, the belly and the leg -- so the society should be divided into four divisions: the brain division, the arm division, the belly division, and the leg division. Leg division means ordinary worker. And all of them should cooperate for keeping the body fit. If this system is followed, then the whole human society will be working very nicely. At the present moment there is no brain; therefore everything is chaotic. So our Krsna consciousness movement is creating some brain. If they follow, the whole society will be happy. A man may be very stout and strong, but if he has no good brain, it is useless. Similarly, at the present moment there is education, there is money and everything, but because there is no brain, the whole thing is in chaotic condition. The first defect is, in education, that the present leader, he does not know what is the aim of life. Neither the people know that there is reincarnation or transmigration of the soul after death. They do not know. So basically they are brainless. So they cannot give guidance, and therefore the whole society is in chaotic condition.
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: If our chanting is a form of prayer?
Prabhupada: Yes. Chanting is a spiritual method for cleansing our heart. Because all dirty things are there in the heart, if the heart becomes clean, then we can understand things as they are. The first misunderstanding, that everyone is thinking that he is this body, this is due to ignorance. So when one is cleansed he can understand that he is not this body; he is separate from the body; he lives within this body. Therefore when the person leaves this body it is dead lump of matter. So people are giving more importance to the lump of matter than to the real person within the body. Just like a bird is within the cage, the cage is being washed very nicely and no food to the bird. Therefore the bird is in disturbed condition, and he's crying, "Khan, khan, khan, khan." This is going on. They're giving stress on the cage, not the bird within the cage. Neither do they know that the living being is within this material body.
Psychologist: (Spanish)
Hrdayananda: Can someone achieve self-realization without a guru or does he need a guru?
Prabhupada: How do you think like that? Is there anything within this you world which can be learned without guru? Even if you become an ordinary carpenter, you have to learn from an expert carpenter. So how you can imagine to learn the topmost subject matter without guru? This is... The Vedic injunction is, therefore, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], samit-panih, like that. We must have a bona fide guru to train us in the understanding of spiritual matter. Guru means who knows the thing, who can teach you. That is guru, not a humbug guru, but guru means one who knows. Tattva-darsinah, one who has seen the truth, he can become guru. Find this verse,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad-jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
Hrdayananda: (Spanish) Thank you.
Prabhupada: So I have to go, bathroom. Give them prasadam. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- February 15, 1975, Mexico
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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