Prabhupada: Vairagya is
there.Dr. Patel: Sir, shall I say, vairagyam jneyam akati krsna
avasyati.(?)
Prabhupada: Yes, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. This is vairagya. So unless he has attained this stage, virakti, then where is bhakti? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairagya. But if there is no vairagya, where is bhakti? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairagya separately. But if you are actually bhakta, then vairagya is there. If there is no vairagya, there is no bhakti. It is sahajiya-bhava.
Guest: In other words, vairagya is a by-product of bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated,
kecit kevalaya bhaktya
vasudeva-parayanah
agham dhunvanti kartsnyena
niharam iva bhaskarah
[SB 6.1.15]
Vairagya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalaya bhaktya, simply by bhakti, vasudeva-parayana. Vairagya immediately comes. Agham dhunvanti kartsnyena niharam iva bhaskarah. If actually one is pure bhakta, then everything material finished. That is real bhakta. Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also. That is not bhakti. That is markata-vairagya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti. No, you take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairagya will come. The vairagya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta. That is adulteration. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. That is bhakti. And because there is not anyabhilasita-sunyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], it is adulterated.
Dr. Patel: Bhakti-avyabhicarini.
Prabhupada: Avyabhicarini, yes. Mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate. Avyabhicarena. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is above three gunas. So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicarini-bhakti. This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas.
Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving.
Prabhupada: Vedas, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with Vedas. "Vedas there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing Vedas, there is... He said, "I don't care for it."
veda na maniya bauddha haya ta nastika
vedasraya nastikya-vada bauddhake adhika
Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rupa Gosvami's advice, that "Here is Radha-kunda..." But whether you have followed other things.
Guest: Vaco vegam manasah...
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam, prthivim sa sisyat. Etan vegan yo visa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah [NoI 1]. Then for him Radha-kunda. Dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. He has got three dozen seva-dasi, and living in Radha-kunda. My Guru Maharaja wanted to publish Govinda-lilamrta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Thakura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Radha-kunda. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rasa-lila. Immediately..."
Acyutananda: Even in Krsna book rasa-lila should not be told in public.
Prabhupada: No, why? Krsna book must be there, in the book must be there.
Acyutananda: But in public...
Prabhupada: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Krsna, then krsna-lila. If you have not understood Krsna, then you'll think Krsna's rasa-lila is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Krsna. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Krsna understanding so easy? If you do not understand Krsna how can you go to the Krsna's confidential activities?
Acyutananda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated."
Prabhupada: Yes. Liberated for going to hell.
Devotee: In your Krsna book, Srila Prabhupada, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Krsna that it's very difficult to misinterpret, because you use such clear explanation.
Prabhupada: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand.
Yasomatinandana: Even theoretical understanding that Krsna is transcendental will not help unless one...
Prabhupada: Because Krsna will lift, samaste, Krsna lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Krsna?
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vrndavana...
Prabhupada: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all.
Devotee: And engage in practical service to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha mane asa **. Has he taken order from Guru Maharaja that "I am going to jump over Radha-kunda"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete, ara na kariha **. Why should he desire like that?
Gopala Krsna: There are some devotees who always want...
Prabhupada: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha mane **.
Acyutananda: They also wear the Radha-kunda mati, tilaka.
Prabhupada: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Radha-kunda and how to deal with Radha-kunda. Raghunatha dasa Gosvami showed how to live in Radha-kunda. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-
Yasomatinandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad-gita. Then gradually the First Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Then ultimately Caitanya-caritamrta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritamrta...
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhagavad-gita is the entrance. Then Bhagavata is graduate and Caitanya-caritamrta... This is the step by step. But if one is sincere everything becomes revealed. He does not commit mistake.
Gopala Krsna: Some devotees, especially in Vrndavana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannatha Puri, always parikrama of holy places.
Prabhupada: It is good to go to holy places.
Acyutananda: They go independently.
Yasomatinandana: Unauthorized.
Acyutananda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified.
Gopala Krsna: But there's no harm if they just...
Prabhupada: You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper... guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha **. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Krsna gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tatha kuru. "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete ara na kariha **. This is...
Acyutananda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use...?
Prabhupada: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tatha, he has got this.
Acyutananda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it?
Prabhupada: That depends on him. If one is determined that "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Maharaja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Otherwise he'll argue.
Devotee: Even nitya-siddha has guru.
Yasomatinandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya-siddha.
Prabhupada: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is God -- guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasan [Cc. Adi 7.71]. "My Guru Maharaja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Guru more murkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is murkha? Why He's posing Himself that murkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahaprabhu says guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasan? This is sahajiya-vada. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next acarya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Maharaja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru." Then he's finished.
Yasomatinandana: They kept fighting, and when the real acarya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is real acarya.
Gopala Krsna: The real acarya emerges by his own preaching?
Devotee: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (end)
Prabhupada: Yes, bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. This is vairagya. So unless he has attained this stage, virakti, then where is bhakti? Bhakti is so powerful that it brings automatically vairagya. But if there is no vairagya, where is bhakti? Understand it now? Yes. It does not depend that you have to practice vairagya separately. But if you are actually bhakta, then vairagya is there. If there is no vairagya, there is no bhakti. It is sahajiya-bhava.
Guest: In other words, vairagya is a by-product of bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated,
kecit kevalaya bhaktya
vasudeva-parayanah
agham dhunvanti kartsnyena
niharam iva bhaskarah
[SB 6.1.15]
Vairagya is to be practiced, but bhakti is so strong, kecit kevalaya bhaktya, simply by bhakti, vasudeva-parayana. Vairagya immediately comes. Agham dhunvanti kartsnyena niharam iva bhaskarah. If actually one is pure bhakta, then everything material finished. That is real bhakta. Now I have got some bhakti and some material desire also. That is not bhakti. That is markata-vairagya. That does not mean that I shall stop bhakti. No, you take bhakti to the principle, to the regulative principle, then automatically vairagya will come. The vairagya is not coming, that means you have not been a pure bhakta. That is adulteration. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. That is bhakti. And because there is not anyabhilasita-sunyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], it is adulterated.
Dr. Patel: Bhakti-avyabhicarini.
Prabhupada: Avyabhicarini, yes. Mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate. Avyabhicarena. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He is above three gunas. So if I am still under the modes of material nature, that means I'm not in avyabhicarini-bhakti. This is the warning. Therefore Lord Buddha rejected Vedas.
Dr. Patel: Because, sir, in the name of Veda people were misbehaving.
Prabhupada: Vedas, when Lord Buddha wanted stop animal killing, these rascals came with Vedas. "Vedas there is sacrifice, there is animal killing." So he thought that these rascals will create botheration. By bringing Vedas, there is... He said, "I don't care for it."
veda na maniya bauddha haya ta nastika
vedasraya nastikya-vada bauddhake adhika
Similarly, these rascals are giving evidence of Rupa Gosvami's advice, that "Here is Radha-kunda..." But whether you have followed other things.
Guest: Vaco vegam manasah...
Prabhupada: Yes. Vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam, prthivim sa sisyat. Etan vegan yo visa... You are manipulated by the udara-vegam, upastha-vegam. First there is test: etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah [NoI 1]. Then for him Radha-kunda. Dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. He has got three dozen seva-dasi, and living in Radha-kunda. My Guru Maharaja wanted to publish Govinda-lilamrta. He asked permission of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. So first of all Bhaktivinoda Thakura, "I'll tell you some day." And when he reminded, he said, "Yes you can print one copy. If you are so much anxious to print it, print one copy. You'll read and you will see that you have printed. Not for distribution." So we are printing all these books for understanding properly. Not that "Here is Radha-kunda. Let us go." Jump over like monkey. "Here is rasa-lila. Immediately..."
Acyutananda: Even in Krsna book rasa-lila should not be told in public.
Prabhupada: No, why? Krsna book must be there, in the book must be there.
Acyutananda: But in public...
Prabhupada: But you should go gradually. You should go gradually. You first of all understand Krsna, then krsna-lila. If you have not understood Krsna, then you'll think Krsna's rasa-lila is just like we mix with young women. And that becomes as polluted. Because they do not understand Krsna. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Krsna understanding so easy? If you do not understand Krsna how can you go to the Krsna's confidential activities?
Acyutananda: Some of the devotees, they said that it is for liberated souls. So they said, "Well, we are all liberated."
Prabhupada: Yes. Liberated for going to hell.
Devotee: In your Krsna book, Srila Prabhupada, you've given such clear explanations along with the stories of Krsna that it's very difficult to misinterpret, because you use such clear explanation.
Prabhupada: No, you read all the books first of all. Then you'll be able to understand.
Yasomatinandana: Even theoretical understanding that Krsna is transcendental will not help unless one...
Prabhupada: Because Krsna will lift, samaste, Krsna lifted the hill. Now how you can become equal with Krsna?
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what about if some devotees, I know they want to come to Vrndavana...
Prabhupada: Every devotee, they must follow the rules and regulations, that's all.
Devotee: And engage in practical service to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha mane asa **. Has he taken order from Guru Maharaja that "I am going to jump over Radha-kunda"? Why does he go? Daily singing, guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete, ara na kariha **. Why should he desire like that?
Gopala Krsna: There are some devotees who always want...
Prabhupada: They are not devotees. Rascals. Don't say "some devotees." Devotees will hear: guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha mane **.
Acyutananda: They also wear the Radha-kunda mati, tilaka.
Prabhupada: There is no harm, but they should understand what is Radha-kunda and how to deal with Radha-kunda. Raghunatha dasa Gosvami showed how to live in Radha-kunda. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-
Yasomatinandana: In other words, first one should understand Bhagavad-gita. Then gradually the First Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Then ultimately Caitanya-caritamrta. Without that, simply taking Caitanya-caritamrta...
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhagavad-gita is the entrance. Then Bhagavata is graduate and Caitanya-caritamrta... This is the step by step. But if one is sincere everything becomes revealed. He does not commit mistake.
Gopala Krsna: Some devotees, especially in Vrndavana, who will always try to run to Hardwar, Jagannatha Puri, always parikrama of holy places.
Prabhupada: It is good to go to holy places.
Acyutananda: They go independently.
Yasomatinandana: Unauthorized.
Acyutananda: They go more to avoid service than to become purified.
Gopala Krsna: But there's no harm if they just...
Prabhupada: You see you can become independent, nobody can check you. Everyone is independent. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. But one who wants to be regulated, he has to surrender. That is voluntary. Otherwise, everyone is free to do whatever he likes. And those who are surrendered souls, they will wait for the instruction of guru and do accordingly. That is the proper... guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete kariya aikya ara na kariha **. That is wanted. Otherwise, everyone can remain independent. All living beings are independent. Even if I say that you do not do it, you are independent, you can do it. Even Krsna gives independence to Arjuna. Yathecchasi tatha kuru. "I have told you everything. Now you do whatever you like." So that depends on the candidate. Everyone is free to do anything, but if he's actually serious then he has to do guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete ara na kariha **. This is...
Acyutananda: What prompts the soul to misuse his independence or improperly use...?
Prabhupada: Because he has got little independence. Yathecchasi tatha, he has got this.
Acyutananda: Why do some misuse it and some never misuse it?
Prabhupada: That depends on him. If one is determined that "I shall only act according to the advice of my Guru Maharaja," then he's perfect. One has to submit like Arjuna said, sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. Otherwise he'll argue.
Devotee: Even nitya-siddha has guru.
Yasomatinandana: Even the liberated soul, nitya-siddha.
Prabhupada: Liberated soul never says that "I am liberated." As soon as he says "liberated," he's a rascal. A liberated soul will never say that "I am liberated." That is liberated. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He is God -- guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasan [Cc. Adi 7.71]. "My Guru Maharaja saw Me a fool number one, and he has chastised Me." He's God. This is the example. If one remains always a servant ever-lastingly of guru, then he is liberated. And as soon as he thinks that he is liberated, he's a rascal. That is the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Guru more murkha dekhi'. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is murkha? Why He's posing Himself that murkha? "I am fool number one." That means that is liberation. You must be ready always to be chastised by guru. Then he's liberated. And as soon as he thinks that "I am beyond this chastisement, I am liberated," he's a rascal. Why Caitanya Mahaprabhu says guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasan? This is sahajiya-vada. He is thinking, "Oh I have become liberated. I don't require any direction of my guru. I'm liberated." Then he's rascal. Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that "This man should be the next acarya." But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, "Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?" They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection. And as soon as he learns the Guru Maharaja is dead, "Now I am so advanced that I can kill my guru and I become guru." Then he's finished.
Yasomatinandana: They kept fighting, and when the real acarya emerged they all became wonderstruck. They all became baffled. Now they all know in their hearts. They all know it. I can see. They all know that who is real acarya.
Gopala Krsna: The real acarya emerges by his own preaching?
Devotee: Yes. (devotees offer obeisances)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- August 16, 1976, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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