Jyotirmayi: Mr. (indistinct) has
made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist
Bhagavad-gita, and now you see he is wearing a dhoti, he's coming to chant Hare
Krsna, he's coming for Srimad-Bhagavatam classes, and he teaches personalist
Bhagavad-gita. But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is
something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter)Prabhupada:
Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahman, Paramatma... He
understands English?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramatma, and then Personality of Godhead.
(Jyotirmayi translates into French)
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are.
Jyotirmayi: Yeah, Mr. (indistinct) is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India, a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Krsna consciousness was...
Prabhupada: In India, where did you stay?
Priest: In Poona.
Prabhupada: Poona, oh. How long you were there?
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter)
Priest: Half of my time, yes, I was in India, half my life.
Prabhupada: Twenty-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally.
Priest: Did you come to Poona?
Prabhupada: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think.
Priest: Yes, not far.
Prabhupada: Poona is nice place. Climate is nice.
Priest: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many good scholars.
Priest: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maharastrian, they are educated, advanced.
Priest: How do you find your disciples here in Europe?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: I shouldn't ask personal question.
Prabhupada: No, it is not personal. It is..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone.
Priest: It does, it does.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only here in Europe -- in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center -- Australia.
Priest: In Bombay also you have got?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, Bombay just now we have got a very big place.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasadam. We are at Juhu quarter. (someone enters room) Hare Krsna. Jaya. So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here.
Bhagavan: You have been to India? You've worked there.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was twenty-five years there.
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: He is Indian. (laughter)
Priest: I was... I mean I am still a bhakta of Krsna, but not..., of the old tradition of Maharastra the (indistinct) of Pandarapura, Vithoba.
Prabhupada: Vaisnava.
Priest: (indistinct) Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna, that Viththala, Viththala. Viththala, there is... So they are Vaisnava.
Priest: And it's the main... (indistinct) center of Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Yes, Pandarapura.
Priest: When I went to India twenty-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage.
Prabhupada: What was your subject matter studying?
Priest: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brahmana pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharastra, Orissa, Jnanesvara.
Prabhupada: Tukarama, Tukarama.
Priest: Tukarama.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Priest: I have proceeded to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Tukarama is in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga, that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya.
Priest: It's a great bhakti tradition.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti.
Pradyumna:
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
[Bg. 18.55]
"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: So in another place also it is said, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mam evaisyasi, asamsaya. "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, always think of Me," man-mana, "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles, it is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Krsna. So by uttering the word Krsna, immediately you think of Krsna. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama... Just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama... What is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna, everyone can see how these young boys and girls, they are not very old, they have taken to it quite young, but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got -- Krsna dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life -- no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Krsna says that "Surely you come back to me." What is the second line? Man-mana...
Pradyumna: Mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam atmanam mat-parayanah.
Prabhupada: In another place it is said asamsaya, that is in the Eighteenth Chapter. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn; they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yukta(tamo matah)
[Bg. 6.47]
The first-class yogis. Actually no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Krsna, tongue, and hear with the ear. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir: by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending -- "we" means Caitanya Mahaprabhu -- He says that "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks "Krsna is Hindu God, why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name?
French Man: Jehovah.
Prabhupada: Jehovah?
French Man: He has no name in Christianity.
Prabhupada: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Krsna, what is the harm? Every religion believes..., not believes; it is fact that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion?
Bhagavan: Buddhist religion?
Priest: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament.
Prabhupada: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible.
Priest: You have got many idea of God.
Prabhupada: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God.
Priest: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: And this experience is different for many people.
Prabhupada: You experience... Because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect.
Priest: But who is to say...
Prabhupada: That is... Yes.
Priest: ...what is a perfect experience?
Prabhupada: No. Even we are imperfect, with our... As far as our knowledge goes, generally, just like the Christians, they say "God is great." Is it not?
Priest: That is rather the Muslims.
Prabhupada: Huh? That is Muslim.
Priest: Allah.
Prabhupada: Allah akbar. So what is the conception of God of the Christian?
Priest: As you said, it's impersonal, trans-personal, what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship.
Prabhupada: Yes, relationship means that He must be a person.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why? Otherwise how you can...
Priest: It is beyond a person.
Prabhupada: Beyond the person... Just like we have got experience: when you call relation, then relation means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation.
Priest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So relation means two person -- one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person.
Priest: Yeah, but what we don't... We don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself.
Prabhupada: What is that, relation itself? Explain.
Priest: It's when you are two together, when the master...
Prabhupada: Then two together means person. As soon as you...
Priest: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation.
Prabhupada: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two persons.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no?
Priest: You see, I have got relation...
Prabhupada: We are two person.
Priest: ...with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation as we have got relation?
Priest: Certainly.
Prabhupada: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise.
Priest: Yes, but I don't make God the object of relationship.
Prabhupada: Then what...
Priest: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship.
Bhagavan: A relation with who?
Priest: Relation with anything.
Bhagavan: That is God?
Priest: That is God.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: He thinks relationship with anything means God.
Prabhupada: Anything?
Bhagavan: Yes, anything.
Priest: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am (indistinct) relationship with you, then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter...
Prabhupada: But in your Bible you say, "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father.
Priest: But...
Prabhupada: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son.
French Man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the (indistinct) of this country. There are two main conceptions -- the Oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western...
Prabhupada: No, we are not talking of any particular church. We are just trying to understand the word relation. If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship. So in the Bible it is clearly said, "O Father," so the relation is father and son.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no?
Priest: You have to... I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced but what is my own experience.
Prabhupada: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that... It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is...
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion, that is a different thing.
Priest: But we have to have the opinion which we experience.
Prabhupada: What is that experience? You ask, "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityanam, the chief, the Supreme. In the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka, that one; God is one. Bahunam vidadhati kaman. He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the Vedas and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way -- as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are related with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife.
Priest: I don't think so. I mean...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But...
Priest: Not opinion; experience.
Prabhupada: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience?
Priest: That God is beyond all our experience.
Prabhupada: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience.
Priest: Personally, of course, but...
Prabhupada: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience.
Priest: But if you know what you can't explain...
Prabhupada: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know.
Priest: You don't think an illusion (indistinct) relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing, that is knowledge.
Priest: Yeah, but that knowledge is very (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach because you do not know, it is not within your experience.
Priest: That's why I don't preach.
Prabhupada: That's all right, then... (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: So you cannot explain. That is all right.
Priest: That means I have the experience...
Prabhupada: But...
Priest: ...that my experience is limited...
Prabhupada: But that's all right.
Priest: ...and God is unlimited.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That I admit.
Priest: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Just like you know...
Priest: And nobody can.
Prabhupada: ...you do not know me, you have no experience about me.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: But if I say, "I am like this," you will get experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: If I live with you for some time...
Prabhupada: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swamiji might have one thousand dollars," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say, "No, I have got one million dollars," then you get the experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: I will get the experience of you when we are living together.
Prabhupada: That means you cannot talk with God.
Priest: Of course not.
Prabhupada: But if anyone can talk?
Priest: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Priest: But my experience is that you cannot...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process.
Priest: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Krsna is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad-gita as it is. So direct experience. Taking experience "I am like this." Just like Krsna says,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-sa...
[Bg. 10.8]
Find out this verse.
Pradyumna:
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."
Prabhupada: Just see. This experience.
Priest: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: God.
Priest: I mean, you need to have faith for that.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why faith? God is God. Why faith?
Priest: Because, you know, I have been living in...
Prabhupada: No, no, you have no experience you have said. You have no experience.
Priest: No, I have not said. You said I did.
Prabhupada: No, you said that God is beyond your experience, you said.
Priest: A real swami listen first if he wants to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience.
Priest: That's right. That is my experience.
Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience.
Priest: Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: You say God is beyond your experience, you say.
Priest: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience, because I found out that all my experience does not mean God.
Prabhupada: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about?
Priest: No, you don't..., you see...
Prabhupada: Then it is a bit difficult.
Priest: I have always told that the duty of the swami is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand.
Prabhupada: No, no, I use... First of all let us... Why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God.
Priest: No, I never said that.
Prabhupada: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know.
Priest: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta, and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience.
Prabhupada: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you?
Priest: That the image of God, whether you call it Krsna or Rama or Nrsimha or any of the avatara... And you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar(?), there was a swami who called himself an avatara, and...
Prabhupada: That anyone can say. I can say third avatara, he can say fourth avatara.
Priest: So if anyone can say...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say "I am avatara."
Priest: Exactly.
Prabhupada: So...
Priest: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatara?
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatara. We have got documents who is avatara.
Priest: Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is... Krsna is avatari. He is the origin. That is stated here, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. You know Sanskrit? What is the meaning of aham sarvasya prabhavah? "I am the source of all avatara."
Priest: Yeah, but who has written that?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Priest: Who has written that? Srila Vyasa.
Prabhupada: Anywhere he has written. Krsna, Krsna has written. Krsna has spoken, Vyasadeva has written, and it is accepted.
Priest: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it (inaudible).
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress.
Priest: Ah, you have to go beyond.
Prabhupada: As soon as you... Just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother and you believe that "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect, that's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father.
Priest: Yeah, but you know...
Prabhupada: If you say, "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know.
Priest: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or (inaudible)...
Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say...
Priest: ...that "I am an avatara" or "I am Guru Maharaj-ji" or "I am," so to say, "Meher Baba or Satya Sai Baba," so many babas exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really baba. They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatara and they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: But we don't believe them.
Priest: No, but they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: Many disciples, that is another thing.
Priest: Millions.
Prabhupada: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody... So many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity.
Priest: And if I had said that...
Prabhupada: It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin vetti mam tattvatah
[Bg. 7.3]
Krsna does not say that "millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is parampara. Just like in India -- you have been in India -- there are acaryas: Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Caitanya. If the acarya accept, then we accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Ramanujacarya, high quality devotee; Madhvacarya, high quality devotee; Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says yes. So Sankaracarya says "Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Ramanujacarya says "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvacarya says "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Tarko apratisthah. Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna, nasav munir yasya matam na bhinnam. A muni, a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Big personalities, acaryas -- that is the process. Acaryopasanam. What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Acaryopasanam, we have to understand through the acaryas. That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. We accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Krsna in the Tenth Chapter. Find out, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Read it.
Pradyumna:
param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
[Bg. 10.12]
Prabhupada: What is that translation?
Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: So Krsna says, and He is confirmed by Vyasadeva, Asita, Narada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says "I am avatara, I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the acaryas, therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. When mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. Arjuna says that: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is all. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and Krsna comes and He is accepted by all the great acaryas, then our business is perfect. So give them prasada.
Bhagavan: Yes. I have prasadam in my office.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186].
Bhagavan: Have you seen our Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: He saw our all books. He is a scholar.
Devotee: This is a translation of Bhagavata Purana.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this.
Bhagavan: We have Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: Here it is.
Devotee: And the Caitanya-caritamrta, all volumes.
Bhagavan: Would you like to see some of the pictures?
Priest: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanatana Gosvami.
Prabhupada: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees.
Bhagavan: This is one of our other specialties.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asya upajayate.
Devotee: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. It's a description of the activities of Lord Krsna. That's in two volumes.
Priest: It's a tremendous work.
Prabhupada: Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world.
Devotee: This is Nectar of Devotion by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the Puranas, and he supports devotional service.
Priest: This is what you use for your devotional service?
Devotee: They're a model.
Bhagavan: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Krsna and distributing of prasadam. And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupada's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kirtana in the temple.
Priest: Yes. This is why I am coming,
Bhagavan: And no one is from India.
Priest: I could see, because in India you don't find that.
Jyotirmayi: Mr. Chenique(?) wanted to ask you some questions. (indistinct) French and I can translate.
Mr. Chenique: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching.
Bhagavan: Do you remember this gentleman?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bhagavan: He was the one who wrote that book.
Prabhupada: Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Mr. Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Mayavadi, he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But if he... He has already written one book. He has presented me, that Krsna...
Devotee: The Yoga of Love.
Prabhupada: The Yoga of Love. So he has many times repeated the word "Krsna." That will benefit him.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking...
Prabhupada: God is person, then? What did he say?
Jyotirmayi: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal. Like he said that in Sankaracarya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson...
Prabhupada: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence, just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person -- sun-god, Vivasvan, he is person -- he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna. Yasya prabha prabhavato [Bs. 5.40]. By expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna, this Brahman, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And in Bhagavata also it is stated,
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], "I am the origin of everything -- Brahman, Paramatma, everything, Bhagavan." Aham sarvasya prabhavah. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Visnu, myself, the world manifested, everything.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: You take that sweet preparation.
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians... Because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Krsna, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God, that in fact is not really a name, by the name Krsna, because according to what you are explaining, God is Krsna. So can they chant the name of Krsna?
Prabhupada: Krsna is God. Krsna is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means, the Sanskrit word is isvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore, there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "the Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, isvara, God. Everyone is God; that is another thing. But isvarah paramah, the Supreme God, is Krsna.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Supreme. We have got experience of isvara. Just like I said, everyone is isvara, everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also isvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is isvara. But these isvaras, they are controlled by another isvara. We are isvara, but I am controlled by another isvara. But isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1], He is isvara but He is not controlled by anyone. That is paramah, supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under..., being and Supreme Being. We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way, you go. If you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, he is Supreme Being. This is the idea.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more controller beyond Me." Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. And in Brahma-samhita, isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form, body. Govinda adi-purusam, sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes. Mattah parataram nanyat.
Yogesvara:
mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva
[Bg. 7.7]
"O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."
Prabhupada: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Krsna is not controlled by anyone. Therefore, He is isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. That is final God. Otherwise God... You will find, you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Krsna, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattah parataram. Parataram means better or higher principle, no.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam [Bg. 10.12]. "You are person" -- purusam means person -- sasvatam, "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyasadeva, by Devala, by Narada." Then it is final.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: The Vedas say, therefore, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru. Vyasadeva is the original guru. He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyasadeva, acaryas. So this is the instruction of the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham: in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet. And who is guru? Srotriyam, one who has heard from his guru, authorized person, srotriyam, brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], and firmly convinced in the science of God.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
(Prabhupada tells someone to open window)
Bhagavan: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God?
Prabhupada: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject, you did not hear?
Bhagavan: Oh, yes, I was just asking.
Prabhupada: You are asking me or asking him?
Bhagavan: No, for his benefit. You were talking experience.
Priest: Yes.
Bhagavan: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person.
Priest: No. I went through that experience, and I would like... May I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Krsna, I said I would like much more to do so. (Has brief conversation in French with Mr. Chenique)
Jyotirmayi: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Krsna consciousness what is missing in Christianity to help them in their own development.
Prabhupada: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity.
Jyotirmayi: (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here?
Prabhupada: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter)
Priest: But then there is no need to dress as you dress.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way?
Prabhupada: Then why Christian go there?
Priest: They should not.
Prabhupada: Then we should not.
Priest: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and (indistinct)? Anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say.
Priest: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian...
Prabhupada: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe?
Priest: True.
Prabhupada: Then you cannot say that "Why you have come here?" You cannot say.
Jyotirmayi: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians?
Prabhupada: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupada: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It's not wrong. It's funny.
Prabhupada: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your...
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhoti and...
Prabhupada: But we are not concerned with the dress, we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding, that's all.
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock?
Jyotirmayi: No, he's not here yet (indistinct).
Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: French literature. He's asking for French literature.
Jyotirmayi: He translated the Tukarama in French.
Prabhupada: Tukarama. Tukarama is great Vaisnava devotee of Maharastra. His movement was sankirtana movement.
Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: This was southern India?
Priest: Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Maharastra, yes. Southwest.
Priest: For the north it is south (indistinct).
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God. Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son?
Devotee: They talk about the trilogy -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is compared like the Father...
Prabhupada: Bhagavan, Paramatma, and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11], it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is not that explained?
Devotee: It's on His right hand.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated.
Prabhupada: Yes. These are all personal ideas.
Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Muhammadanism also Vaisnavism, because Muhammad says, "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dasya-rasa, dasya. Santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya. So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer -- both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam. So we don't say that this is bad and this is good. No. Both of them are bhakti. To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes,
sravanam kirtanam visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam
[SB 7.5.23]
Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrura, the example is given. Akrura got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this Hare Krsna? This is also prayer. Hare Krsna, "O Krsna, O the energy of Krsna, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna mantra. Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in your service." So that is vandana. So vandana, and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, Hare Krsna, asking something for satisfaction of Krsna, "Engage me is Your service," little advanced because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs.
So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, arto artharthi jnani ca catur-vidha bhajante mam. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, artah. Artah means distress, artah, one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say, "Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say, "No, sir." "Now pray to us." "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have got this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured; that is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you... Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman, He is supplying for everyone. So if He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Krsna or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gita: imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha [Bg. 4.1], "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god." The sun-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being, He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. He is the origin of everything. And He says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Find out this verse. Find out. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, tadatmanam srjamy aham.
Pradyumna:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself."
Prabhupada: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glanih, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihata [SB 1.2.6]. If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihata. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is sravanam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Adau gurv-asrayam, sad-dharma prcchat. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi... Find out this verse,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
This tattva-darsinah means experience. What is that?
Pradyumna:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pradyumna: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam hi saksad-bhagavat-pranitam -- the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect."
Prabhupada: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacari asrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavan: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You have got?
Devotee: I think so.
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Krsna will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion.
Prabhupada: No. We are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in Christianity God has no name.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jyotirmayi: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ.
Prabhupada: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But you said that His name be glorified.
Devotee: They say "Hallowed be Thy name."
Priest: But the name is not said.
Devotee: Yes.
Priest: Never said.
Devotee: Jesus said that "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says, "but there is more to be told."
Prabhupada: That's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Krsna"?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: What is the objection?
Man: (French)
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis.
namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis
tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah
etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi
durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah
Bahudha: God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Krsna is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-sakti tatrarpita. That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh [Cc. Madhya 17.133]. Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Priest: Yeah, but you can take "Rama," you can take "Parasurama," you can take (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, any name, any name.
Priest: Krsna has no special...
Prabhupada: No. Special there is. In this way, it is recommended in the sastra, recommended in the sastra: harer nama. Harer means of God. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. So this is the... We have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaisnava.
Priest: Does it matter...
Prabhupada: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra-nama, visnu sahasra. But in another place it is said, other Upanisad, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama... This name is recommended. Just like Agni Purana and Kalisantarana Upanisad, in this Vedic literature, this...
Priest: Yeah, but each Upanisad will recommend its own specific Deity, you know. Rama, as you say, Hare Rama. Or Siva.
Prabhupada: Yes, Rama is all right. Rama we chant. Hare Rama we chant. Hare Krsna and Hare Rama. Rama also we chant.
Priest: Or Siva. I mean, you see, in the Svetasvatara Upanisad.
Devotee: (Sanskrit)
Priest: I mean, what devotees? You have got bhakti also in the Saivite , all the others.
Pusta Krsna: The argument, if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name.
Priest: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: We say that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to...
Prabhupada: Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Harer nama means God's name.
Priest: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti, and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had that Jesus bhakti. And in your country, in America today, like you have got the Hare Krsna, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, this is also present in many places. And the name does not matter. There is no name who has got the... Because then you find again what...
Prabhupada: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing.
Priest: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point.
Prabhupada: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name?
Priest: Yeah, but this is another discussion (indistinct). What we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it...
Prabhupada: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says... Just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son.
Priest: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son?
Priest: No, it is not that question. The question is...
Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Krsna is a very common name...
Priest: Yeah.
Devotee: ...in the sense that many people may be called Krsna. But the Supreme God is also called Krsna. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme.
Priest: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name.
Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing.
Prabhupada: If you think that Jesus Christ's name is also, you can chant, we have no objection. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right.
Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: Name Krsna, Allah, Jesus, (indistinct), what is the...
Prabhupada: Allah is not name. That is... It is not the name. It is just like the idea of God.
Priest: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Allah means God, isvara.
Priest: Allah means also (indistinct).
Prabhupada: But that is not the name. That is... Just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So President is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name.
Priest: Do you know the Sufi?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims (indistinct).
Prabhupada: No.
Priest: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say...
Prabhupada: Allah means God.
Priest: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah the all-knowing is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that.
Prabhupada: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant.
Yogesvara: Yesterday, Srila Prabhupada, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the Padma Purana, about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram, which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting "ha rama," which means "where is Lord Rama," so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation.
Prabhupada: Although he did not mean Rama, he condemned the boar as haram, condemned. But the...
Priest: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharastra of the hunter.
Prabhupada: Yes, may be the same story.
Priest: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then... It is a common story.
Prabhupada: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." (end)
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramatma, and then Personality of Godhead.
(Jyotirmayi translates into French)
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are.
Jyotirmayi: Yeah, Mr. (indistinct) is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India, a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Krsna consciousness was...
Prabhupada: In India, where did you stay?
Priest: In Poona.
Prabhupada: Poona, oh. How long you were there?
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter)
Priest: Half of my time, yes, I was in India, half my life.
Prabhupada: Twenty-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally.
Priest: Did you come to Poona?
Prabhupada: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think.
Priest: Yes, not far.
Prabhupada: Poona is nice place. Climate is nice.
Priest: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many good scholars.
Priest: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maharastrian, they are educated, advanced.
Priest: How do you find your disciples here in Europe?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: I shouldn't ask personal question.
Prabhupada: No, it is not personal. It is..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone.
Priest: It does, it does.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only here in Europe -- in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center -- Australia.
Priest: In Bombay also you have got?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, Bombay just now we have got a very big place.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasadam. We are at Juhu quarter. (someone enters room) Hare Krsna. Jaya. So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here.
Bhagavan: You have been to India? You've worked there.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was twenty-five years there.
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: He is Indian. (laughter)
Priest: I was... I mean I am still a bhakta of Krsna, but not..., of the old tradition of Maharastra the (indistinct) of Pandarapura, Vithoba.
Prabhupada: Vaisnava.
Priest: (indistinct) Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna, that Viththala, Viththala. Viththala, there is... So they are Vaisnava.
Priest: And it's the main... (indistinct) center of Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Yes, Pandarapura.
Priest: When I went to India twenty-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage.
Prabhupada: What was your subject matter studying?
Priest: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brahmana pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharastra, Orissa, Jnanesvara.
Prabhupada: Tukarama, Tukarama.
Priest: Tukarama.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Priest: I have proceeded to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Tukarama is in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga, that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya.
Priest: It's a great bhakti tradition.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti.
Pradyumna:
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
[Bg. 18.55]
"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: So in another place also it is said, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mam evaisyasi, asamsaya. "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, always think of Me," man-mana, "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles, it is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Krsna. So by uttering the word Krsna, immediately you think of Krsna. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama... Just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama... What is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna, everyone can see how these young boys and girls, they are not very old, they have taken to it quite young, but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got -- Krsna dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life -- no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Krsna says that "Surely you come back to me." What is the second line? Man-mana...
Pradyumna: Mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam atmanam mat-parayanah.
Prabhupada: In another place it is said asamsaya, that is in the Eighteenth Chapter. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn; they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yukta(tamo matah)
[Bg. 6.47]
The first-class yogis. Actually no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Krsna, tongue, and hear with the ear. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir: by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending -- "we" means Caitanya Mahaprabhu -- He says that "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks "Krsna is Hindu God, why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name?
French Man: Jehovah.
Prabhupada: Jehovah?
French Man: He has no name in Christianity.
Prabhupada: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Krsna, what is the harm? Every religion believes..., not believes; it is fact that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion?
Bhagavan: Buddhist religion?
Priest: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament.
Prabhupada: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible.
Priest: You have got many idea of God.
Prabhupada: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God.
Priest: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: And this experience is different for many people.
Prabhupada: You experience... Because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect.
Priest: But who is to say...
Prabhupada: That is... Yes.
Priest: ...what is a perfect experience?
Prabhupada: No. Even we are imperfect, with our... As far as our knowledge goes, generally, just like the Christians, they say "God is great." Is it not?
Priest: That is rather the Muslims.
Prabhupada: Huh? That is Muslim.
Priest: Allah.
Prabhupada: Allah akbar. So what is the conception of God of the Christian?
Priest: As you said, it's impersonal, trans-personal, what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship.
Prabhupada: Yes, relationship means that He must be a person.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why? Otherwise how you can...
Priest: It is beyond a person.
Prabhupada: Beyond the person... Just like we have got experience: when you call relation, then relation means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation.
Priest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So relation means two person -- one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person.
Priest: Yeah, but what we don't... We don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself.
Prabhupada: What is that, relation itself? Explain.
Priest: It's when you are two together, when the master...
Prabhupada: Then two together means person. As soon as you...
Priest: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation.
Prabhupada: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two persons.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no?
Priest: You see, I have got relation...
Prabhupada: We are two person.
Priest: ...with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation as we have got relation?
Priest: Certainly.
Prabhupada: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise.
Priest: Yes, but I don't make God the object of relationship.
Prabhupada: Then what...
Priest: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship.
Bhagavan: A relation with who?
Priest: Relation with anything.
Bhagavan: That is God?
Priest: That is God.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: He thinks relationship with anything means God.
Prabhupada: Anything?
Bhagavan: Yes, anything.
Priest: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am (indistinct) relationship with you, then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter...
Prabhupada: But in your Bible you say, "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father.
Priest: But...
Prabhupada: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son.
French Man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the (indistinct) of this country. There are two main conceptions -- the Oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western...
Prabhupada: No, we are not talking of any particular church. We are just trying to understand the word relation. If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship. So in the Bible it is clearly said, "O Father," so the relation is father and son.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no?
Priest: You have to... I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced but what is my own experience.
Prabhupada: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that... It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is...
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion, that is a different thing.
Priest: But we have to have the opinion which we experience.
Prabhupada: What is that experience? You ask, "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityanam, the chief, the Supreme. In the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka, that one; God is one. Bahunam vidadhati kaman. He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the Vedas and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way -- as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are related with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife.
Priest: I don't think so. I mean...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But...
Priest: Not opinion; experience.
Prabhupada: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience?
Priest: That God is beyond all our experience.
Prabhupada: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience.
Priest: Personally, of course, but...
Prabhupada: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience.
Priest: But if you know what you can't explain...
Prabhupada: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know.
Priest: You don't think an illusion (indistinct) relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing, that is knowledge.
Priest: Yeah, but that knowledge is very (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach because you do not know, it is not within your experience.
Priest: That's why I don't preach.
Prabhupada: That's all right, then... (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: So you cannot explain. That is all right.
Priest: That means I have the experience...
Prabhupada: But...
Priest: ...that my experience is limited...
Prabhupada: But that's all right.
Priest: ...and God is unlimited.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That I admit.
Priest: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Just like you know...
Priest: And nobody can.
Prabhupada: ...you do not know me, you have no experience about me.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: But if I say, "I am like this," you will get experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: If I live with you for some time...
Prabhupada: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swamiji might have one thousand dollars," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say, "No, I have got one million dollars," then you get the experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: I will get the experience of you when we are living together.
Prabhupada: That means you cannot talk with God.
Priest: Of course not.
Prabhupada: But if anyone can talk?
Priest: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Priest: But my experience is that you cannot...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process.
Priest: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Krsna is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad-gita as it is. So direct experience. Taking experience "I am like this." Just like Krsna says,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-sa...
[Bg. 10.8]
Find out this verse.
Pradyumna:
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
[Bg. 10.8]
"I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."
Prabhupada: Just see. This experience.
Priest: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: God.
Priest: I mean, you need to have faith for that.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why faith? God is God. Why faith?
Priest: Because, you know, I have been living in...
Prabhupada: No, no, you have no experience you have said. You have no experience.
Priest: No, I have not said. You said I did.
Prabhupada: No, you said that God is beyond your experience, you said.
Priest: A real swami listen first if he wants to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience.
Priest: That's right. That is my experience.
Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience.
Priest: Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: You say God is beyond your experience, you say.
Priest: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience, because I found out that all my experience does not mean God.
Prabhupada: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about?
Priest: No, you don't..., you see...
Prabhupada: Then it is a bit difficult.
Priest: I have always told that the duty of the swami is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand.
Prabhupada: No, no, I use... First of all let us... Why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God.
Priest: No, I never said that.
Prabhupada: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know.
Priest: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta, and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience.
Prabhupada: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you?
Priest: That the image of God, whether you call it Krsna or Rama or Nrsimha or any of the avatara... And you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar(?), there was a swami who called himself an avatara, and...
Prabhupada: That anyone can say. I can say third avatara, he can say fourth avatara.
Priest: So if anyone can say...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say "I am avatara."
Priest: Exactly.
Prabhupada: So...
Priest: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatara?
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatara. We have got documents who is avatara.
Priest: Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is... Krsna is avatari. He is the origin. That is stated here, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. You know Sanskrit? What is the meaning of aham sarvasya prabhavah? "I am the source of all avatara."
Priest: Yeah, but who has written that?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Priest: Who has written that? Srila Vyasa.
Prabhupada: Anywhere he has written. Krsna, Krsna has written. Krsna has spoken, Vyasadeva has written, and it is accepted.
Priest: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it (inaudible).
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress.
Priest: Ah, you have to go beyond.
Prabhupada: As soon as you... Just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother and you believe that "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect, that's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father.
Priest: Yeah, but you know...
Prabhupada: If you say, "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know.
Priest: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or (inaudible)...
Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say...
Priest: ...that "I am an avatara" or "I am Guru Maharaj-ji" or "I am," so to say, "Meher Baba or Satya Sai Baba," so many babas exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really baba. They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatara and they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: But we don't believe them.
Priest: No, but they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: Many disciples, that is another thing.
Priest: Millions.
Prabhupada: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody... So many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity.
Priest: And if I had said that...
Prabhupada: It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin vetti mam tattvatah
[Bg. 7.3]
Krsna does not say that "millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is parampara. Just like in India -- you have been in India -- there are acaryas: Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Caitanya. If the acarya accept, then we accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Ramanujacarya, high quality devotee; Madhvacarya, high quality devotee; Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says yes. So Sankaracarya says "Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Ramanujacarya says "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvacarya says "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Tarko apratisthah. Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna, nasav munir yasya matam na bhinnam. A muni, a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Big personalities, acaryas -- that is the process. Acaryopasanam. What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Acaryopasanam, we have to understand through the acaryas. That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. We accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Krsna in the Tenth Chapter. Find out, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Read it.
Pradyumna:
param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
[Bg. 10.12]
Prabhupada: What is that translation?
Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: So Krsna says, and He is confirmed by Vyasadeva, Asita, Narada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says "I am avatara, I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the acaryas, therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. When mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. Arjuna says that: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is all. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and Krsna comes and He is accepted by all the great acaryas, then our business is perfect. So give them prasada.
Bhagavan: Yes. I have prasadam in my office.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186].
Bhagavan: Have you seen our Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: He saw our all books. He is a scholar.
Devotee: This is a translation of Bhagavata Purana.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this.
Bhagavan: We have Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: Here it is.
Devotee: And the Caitanya-caritamrta, all volumes.
Bhagavan: Would you like to see some of the pictures?
Priest: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanatana Gosvami.
Prabhupada: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees.
Bhagavan: This is one of our other specialties.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asya upajayate.
Devotee: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. It's a description of the activities of Lord Krsna. That's in two volumes.
Priest: It's a tremendous work.
Prabhupada: Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world.
Devotee: This is Nectar of Devotion by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the Puranas, and he supports devotional service.
Priest: This is what you use for your devotional service?
Devotee: They're a model.
Bhagavan: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Krsna and distributing of prasadam. And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupada's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kirtana in the temple.
Priest: Yes. This is why I am coming,
Bhagavan: And no one is from India.
Priest: I could see, because in India you don't find that.
Jyotirmayi: Mr. Chenique(?) wanted to ask you some questions. (indistinct) French and I can translate.
Mr. Chenique: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching.
Bhagavan: Do you remember this gentleman?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bhagavan: He was the one who wrote that book.
Prabhupada: Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Mr. Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Mayavadi, he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But if he... He has already written one book. He has presented me, that Krsna...
Devotee: The Yoga of Love.
Prabhupada: The Yoga of Love. So he has many times repeated the word "Krsna." That will benefit him.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking...
Prabhupada: God is person, then? What did he say?
Jyotirmayi: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal. Like he said that in Sankaracarya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson...
Prabhupada: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence, just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person -- sun-god, Vivasvan, he is person -- he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna. Yasya prabha prabhavato [Bs. 5.40]. By expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna, this Brahman, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And in Bhagavata also it is stated,
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], "I am the origin of everything -- Brahman, Paramatma, everything, Bhagavan." Aham sarvasya prabhavah. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Visnu, myself, the world manifested, everything.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: You take that sweet preparation.
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians... Because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Krsna, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God, that in fact is not really a name, by the name Krsna, because according to what you are explaining, God is Krsna. So can they chant the name of Krsna?
Prabhupada: Krsna is God. Krsna is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means, the Sanskrit word is isvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore, there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "the Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, isvara, God. Everyone is God; that is another thing. But isvarah paramah, the Supreme God, is Krsna.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Supreme. We have got experience of isvara. Just like I said, everyone is isvara, everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also isvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is isvara. But these isvaras, they are controlled by another isvara. We are isvara, but I am controlled by another isvara. But isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1], He is isvara but He is not controlled by anyone. That is paramah, supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under..., being and Supreme Being. We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way, you go. If you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, he is Supreme Being. This is the idea.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more controller beyond Me." Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. And in Brahma-samhita, isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form, body. Govinda adi-purusam, sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes. Mattah parataram nanyat.
Yogesvara:
mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva
[Bg. 7.7]
"O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."
Prabhupada: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Krsna is not controlled by anyone. Therefore, He is isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. That is final God. Otherwise God... You will find, you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Krsna, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattah parataram. Parataram means better or higher principle, no.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam [Bg. 10.12]. "You are person" -- purusam means person -- sasvatam, "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyasadeva, by Devala, by Narada." Then it is final.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: The Vedas say, therefore, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru. Vyasadeva is the original guru. He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyasadeva, acaryas. So this is the instruction of the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham: in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet. And who is guru? Srotriyam, one who has heard from his guru, authorized person, srotriyam, brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], and firmly convinced in the science of God.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
(Prabhupada tells someone to open window)
Bhagavan: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God?
Prabhupada: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject, you did not hear?
Bhagavan: Oh, yes, I was just asking.
Prabhupada: You are asking me or asking him?
Bhagavan: No, for his benefit. You were talking experience.
Priest: Yes.
Bhagavan: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person.
Priest: No. I went through that experience, and I would like... May I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Krsna, I said I would like much more to do so. (Has brief conversation in French with Mr. Chenique)
Jyotirmayi: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Krsna consciousness what is missing in Christianity to help them in their own development.
Prabhupada: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity.
Jyotirmayi: (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here?
Prabhupada: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter)
Priest: But then there is no need to dress as you dress.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way?
Prabhupada: Then why Christian go there?
Priest: They should not.
Prabhupada: Then we should not.
Priest: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and (indistinct)? Anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say.
Priest: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian...
Prabhupada: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe?
Priest: True.
Prabhupada: Then you cannot say that "Why you have come here?" You cannot say.
Jyotirmayi: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians?
Prabhupada: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupada: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It's not wrong. It's funny.
Prabhupada: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your...
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhoti and...
Prabhupada: But we are not concerned with the dress, we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding, that's all.
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock?
Jyotirmayi: No, he's not here yet (indistinct).
Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: French literature. He's asking for French literature.
Jyotirmayi: He translated the Tukarama in French.
Prabhupada: Tukarama. Tukarama is great Vaisnava devotee of Maharastra. His movement was sankirtana movement.
Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: This was southern India?
Priest: Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Maharastra, yes. Southwest.
Priest: For the north it is south (indistinct).
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God. Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son?
Devotee: They talk about the trilogy -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is compared like the Father...
Prabhupada: Bhagavan, Paramatma, and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11], it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is not that explained?
Devotee: It's on His right hand.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated.
Prabhupada: Yes. These are all personal ideas.
Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Muhammadanism also Vaisnavism, because Muhammad says, "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dasya-rasa, dasya. Santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya. So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer -- both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam. So we don't say that this is bad and this is good. No. Both of them are bhakti. To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes,
sravanam kirtanam visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam
[SB 7.5.23]
Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrura, the example is given. Akrura got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this Hare Krsna? This is also prayer. Hare Krsna, "O Krsna, O the energy of Krsna, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna mantra. Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in your service." So that is vandana. So vandana, and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, Hare Krsna, asking something for satisfaction of Krsna, "Engage me is Your service," little advanced because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs.
So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, arto artharthi jnani ca catur-vidha bhajante mam. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, artah. Artah means distress, artah, one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say, "Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say, "No, sir." "Now pray to us." "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have got this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured; that is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you... Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman, He is supplying for everyone. So if He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Krsna or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gita: imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha [Bg. 4.1], "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god." The sun-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being, He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. He is the origin of everything. And He says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Find out this verse. Find out. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, tadatmanam srjamy aham.
Pradyumna:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself."
Prabhupada: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glanih, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihata [SB 1.2.6]. If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihata. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is sravanam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Adau gurv-asrayam, sad-dharma prcchat. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi... Find out this verse,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
This tattva-darsinah means experience. What is that?
Pradyumna:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]
"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pradyumna: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam hi saksad-bhagavat-pranitam -- the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect."
Prabhupada: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacari asrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavan: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You have got?
Devotee: I think so.
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Krsna will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion.
Prabhupada: No. We are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in Christianity God has no name.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jyotirmayi: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ.
Prabhupada: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But you said that His name be glorified.
Devotee: They say "Hallowed be Thy name."
Priest: But the name is not said.
Devotee: Yes.
Priest: Never said.
Devotee: Jesus said that "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says, "but there is more to be told."
Prabhupada: That's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Krsna"?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: What is the objection?
Man: (French)
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis.
namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis
tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah
etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi
durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah
Bahudha: God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Krsna is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-sakti tatrarpita. That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh [Cc. Madhya 17.133]. Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Priest: Yeah, but you can take "Rama," you can take "Parasurama," you can take (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, any name, any name.
Priest: Krsna has no special...
Prabhupada: No. Special there is. In this way, it is recommended in the sastra, recommended in the sastra: harer nama. Harer means of God. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. So this is the... We have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaisnava.
Priest: Does it matter...
Prabhupada: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra-nama, visnu sahasra. But in another place it is said, other Upanisad, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama... This name is recommended. Just like Agni Purana and Kalisantarana Upanisad, in this Vedic literature, this...
Priest: Yeah, but each Upanisad will recommend its own specific Deity, you know. Rama, as you say, Hare Rama. Or Siva.
Prabhupada: Yes, Rama is all right. Rama we chant. Hare Rama we chant. Hare Krsna and Hare Rama. Rama also we chant.
Priest: Or Siva. I mean, you see, in the Svetasvatara Upanisad.
Devotee: (Sanskrit)
Priest: I mean, what devotees? You have got bhakti also in the Saivite , all the others.
Pusta Krsna: The argument, if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name.
Priest: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: We say that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to...
Prabhupada: Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Harer nama means God's name.
Priest: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti, and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had that Jesus bhakti. And in your country, in America today, like you have got the Hare Krsna, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, this is also present in many places. And the name does not matter. There is no name who has got the... Because then you find again what...
Prabhupada: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing.
Priest: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point.
Prabhupada: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name?
Priest: Yeah, but this is another discussion (indistinct). What we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it...
Prabhupada: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says... Just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son.
Priest: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son?
Priest: No, it is not that question. The question is...
Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Krsna is a very common name...
Priest: Yeah.
Devotee: ...in the sense that many people may be called Krsna. But the Supreme God is also called Krsna. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme.
Priest: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name.
Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing.
Prabhupada: If you think that Jesus Christ's name is also, you can chant, we have no objection. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right.
Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: Name Krsna, Allah, Jesus, (indistinct), what is the...
Prabhupada: Allah is not name. That is... It is not the name. It is just like the idea of God.
Priest: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Allah means God, isvara.
Priest: Allah means also (indistinct).
Prabhupada: But that is not the name. That is... Just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So President is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name.
Priest: Do you know the Sufi?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims (indistinct).
Prabhupada: No.
Priest: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say...
Prabhupada: Allah means God.
Priest: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah the all-knowing is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that.
Prabhupada: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant.
Yogesvara: Yesterday, Srila Prabhupada, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the Padma Purana, about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram, which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting "ha rama," which means "where is Lord Rama," so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation.
Prabhupada: Although he did not mean Rama, he condemned the boar as haram, condemned. But the...
Priest: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharastra of the hunter.
Prabhupada: Yes, may be the same story.
Priest: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then... It is a common story.
Prabhupada: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974,
Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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