Prabhupada: We think, according to
our philosophy, everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, and we are all
sons. So everyone has the right to use the property of the father. So that
consciousness should be spread. This barrier of nationalism is against Krsna
consciousness. Why there should be? Actually everything belongs to God.
Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. The sky, the land, the water, they are all
creation of God, God's property. But we should not take more than what is
allotted to us. That is real life. Otherwise, I have practically studied that
there is enough land. Just like in your country, in America, there is enough
land, not utilized. They can be properly utilized, and if food grains are
produced, there is no question of scarcity of food all over the world. Not only
in America -- in Africa, in Australia. [break] If we get nourishing food, every
one of us, so there is no economic problem.Mr. Boyd: How do we handle these
people who don't seem to want to carry their own weight, though, Prabhupada? The
ones who don't want to work and help produce this food?
Prabhupada: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brahmanas, and some of the brahmanas, they are sannyasis. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, ksatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Ksatriya, ksat means injury, and trayate, "one who saves people from injury." It is ksatriya's duty. So ksatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brahmanas, then ksatriya. Then vaisyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, krsi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk -- from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee -- then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called sudras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men. First class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division. Brahmana... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacari, student life; grhastha, married life; vanaprastha, retired life; and sannyasa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Krsna consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varna and asrama. And if you simply produce sudras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some sudras to act as ksatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?
Pusta Krsna: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.
Prabhupada: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are sudras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as ksatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not ksatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varnasrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Krsna consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varna and asrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Guna-karma, by quality. In India, the varnasrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brahmana, there is no need of ksatriya, simply sudras." Everywhere this is the position, the sudra population, kalau sudra sambhavah. In this age everyone is a sudra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born sudra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brahmana, how to become ksatriya, how to become vaisya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.
Vipina: His question is that now the government is corrupt, so what can be immediately done?
Prabhupada: How there can be, because the democracy? You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, sudra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a sudra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brahmana, he's not ksatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brahmanas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Ramacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently -- they were taking advice from learned brahmanas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brahmanas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be ksatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If sudras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhih. Rajanyair dasyu-dharmabhih. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues. So as the thieves and rogues capture you on the street and ask "Whatever you have got, give, otherwise I shall kill you," so this will be the position in the Kali-yuga. It is happening now. You cannot have any private property; everything you have to declare. Otherwise, it will be taken by force. So people will be very much embarrassed by two things: one thing is taxation, and another thing will be scarcity of food. In this way, all the people all over the world will be embarrassed, so much so that they will leave their home, hearth and home, acchinna-dara-dravina yasyanti giri-kananam. Being separated from family and property, they will take shelter in the hilly ranges or in the forest to get relief. This will be the position. Harassment, so much harassment, by nature, by government. So therefore for complete happy society, this Krsna consciousness movement is essential. All intelligent persons, they should join this movement and reform the present social, political, religious. All field of activities, they should reform. Then people will be happy. Not only happy in this life, but also next life. Unfortunately, the present education does not provide knowledge of next life. There is no such education. They are kept in darkness like cats and dogs. They do not know that there is life after death, and we get our next life according to our present activities -- karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. These things are unknown. Very risky life. If I am prime minister in this life or president, and if I am going to become a dog next life, then what is the benefit of becoming prime minister or president? And nature's law is that you get your next life according to the mentality at the time of death. So if I have acted like cats and dogs throughout whole life, naturally I shall think like cats and dogs at the time of death. Then next life is cats and dogs. So I may be worshiped here in a statue, that "Here is our beloved prime minister," and next life, I'm barking as a dog. Then what is the benefit?
Mr. Boyd: Well, that might depend on what kind of prime minister you were.
Prabhupada: No, that is possible, I can become prime minister or any big man. But if I do not work properly, if I work like animal, then my next life is animal. There is no consideration that "Here is a prime minister, why he should become a dog?" Nature will act. If you infect some disease, you may be prime minister or you may be a common man, if you have infected that disease, you must suffer from that disease. That is nature's law. There is no consideration that "Here is prime minister. He has infected the malaria germs. He should not suffer." Nature's law if not like that. Just like you say that in India there is malaria. So your daughter was not excused, that "Here is a girl coming of very respectable, good family. She should be excused." No excuse. You have infected malaria germ, you must suffer. So similarly, karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. We are associating with different modes of material nature, and according to our association, sat, asat, good birth or low-class birth is there -- either as demigods in the higher planetary system or human being in the middle planetary system or as animals, low class. There are three classes of birth. That depends on our association with the modes of material nature -- goodness, passion or ignorance. So at least in the human form of life nobody should be kept in ignorance. The facility must be given. That is civilization. Every human being should have the greatest opportunity to make his life successful. That is Krsna consciousness movement. Every human being is open to accept the principles of Krsna consciousness and make his life successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is our propaganda, to give everyone the facility of perfection of life. Now somebody may take or somebody may not take, but the basic principle of this Krsna consciousness movement is to offer everyone the best facility.
Vipina: Prabhupada, what about in the case where you have this ideal civilization with the brahmanas instructing, but the brahmanas don't agree? Just like in Bhagavad-gita, the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, there were many brahmanas, but they didn't agree.
Prabhupada: There were many brahmanas? Who said?
Vipina: Well there's..., well, there was, they were great kings, right? But they didn't agree on how..., who should have the kingdom? Arjuna and his relatives were in disagreement, great ksatriya leaders.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, they are not brahmanas. So when there is disagreement, there is fight. The battle will decide. That is always, at the present moment also. When there is disagreement between nation and nation, there is war declaration. That is natural.
Vipina: This is Mr. Furman and his wife, Prabhupada. Mr. Furman was the man who sold us this property.
Mr. Furman: Glad to meet you, Your Divine Grace. My wife, Lynn.
Prabhupada: I'm very glad to see you.
Mrs. Furman: We saw you on television today. Did you see? Was it Channel Four? The news has been on, it's on again at eleven. Very nice.
Mr. Furman: It was a very good representation.
Prabhupada: So it is not a sectarian religious sentimental movement. It is a movement for giving real education, knowledge, to the people all over the world without any discrimination. So at least those who are intelligent class of men, they should join and study this movement and try to broadcast for the good of the human society. The basic principles I have already explained.
Mr. Boyd: A statement was made some time ago in a conversation that somebody was looking for the Gita without the Rama. Could you explain what they might be meaning by that?
Vipina: The Gita without the...
Mr. Boyd: The Gita without the Rama, that's all the statement was, that kind of an indication.
Prabhupada: Gita without Rama?
Dr. Sharma: Perhaps they said Gita without Ramayana. (indistinct) said:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]
Which also, Hare Rama, Hare Krsna, includes Rama.
Prabhupada: Yes, there is no difference between Krsna and Rama.
Dr. Sharma: We do chant Rama and Krsna both.
Prabhupada: Krsna has said in the Gita, "I am Rama." "I am Rama."
Hari-sauri: Who made the statement?
Mr. Boyd: I don't think it makes any difference who made the statement, it was just a comment that somebody wanted the Gita without Rama, which indicated to me that they didn't want the whole picture, they didn't want the total fact. But otherwise I couldn't put the two together, because Barbara must have taken the Bhagavad-gita back to Germany with her.
Dr. Sharma: Actually here is a one-to-one translation. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupada: The Tulasi dasa's Ramayana means Rama-carita. It is not Ramayana. Rama-carita Manas. He was devotee of Lord Ramacandra. So as he was thinking of Lord Ramacandra, he has written. So he was a learned scholar, brahmana, he must have read Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavatam. So all his translation is there on the basis of the sastra, especially Bhagavata and Bhagavad-gita. You'll find many parallel passages. But Gita is the summary of all Vedic literature, and it is spoken by the Personality of Godhead. So if we fix up our attention on the Bhagavad-gita, then you can get advantage of all other sastras.
Vipina: Srila Prabhupada? This is Mr. Kruzowsky. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Maryland. He's very much interested in yoga and meditation. He invited us to speak earlier this year in his class, philosophy and religion.
Devotee (3): And this is Emmet Holman(?) who teaches philosophy at George Mason University. He's also very interested in Indian philosophy.
Prabhupada: We had some talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. Recently our representative went to Moscow for selling our book. They have highly appreciated our books. They have given in writing appreciation.
Mr. Boyd: Your Grace, in regards to the organization of the movement, as such, I somehow am led to believe that there's no coordination between, should I say, your office, in regards to the karmi world, and the different temples. Are each..., does each temple operate by itself, or each division operate by itself?
Prabhupada: No, (indistinct). There is separate arrangement for management, but the idea and philosophy is the same. Ultimately, I am managing. I have my twenty secretaries, they are called GBC, they are assisting me to manage. Every GBC has got a certain number of temples to supervise, and ultimately, I supervise everything. Therefore I come occasionally, stay for few days to see how things are going on. I have got hundred temples, big, big temples, very nice. They have organized palatial buildings, but I cannot stay anywhere. (laughter)
Mr. Boyd: That's the trouble with being boss. If you don't do it, nobody else will.
Prabhupada: As soon as I say, "Ah, it is very nice place," the time is over, they say "You please get out." (laughter and groans from devotees)
Mr. Boyd: The school in Vrndavana, is this, I assume this is to be out there in the yard that they were clearing. When do you anticipate that will be built?
Prabhupada: When they clear the land, we are going to construct a nice building for the school. As soon as it is done, then we will organize. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan... [SB 7.6.1]. From the very beginning of life, this Bhagavata principle should be trained. That is perfect. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. They should be trained up how to read at the house of the spiritual master. They should be trained up how to control the senses, danta. Danta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-samyami. That is the real yoga practice, not that I indulge in sense gratification as I like, and I become a yogi. This is all bogus. This is not yoga. Yoga means how to control the senses. Then I can concentrate my mind towards God realization and self-realization. If my senses are always disturbing, it is not possible to apply my mind for self-realization. That is not possible. Therefore the yoga practice, preliminary practice, is yama-niyama, controlling, niyama, under regulative principles. They are all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic literature also. And the ultimate end of yoga practice is to think of Krsna. That is perfection of yoga. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. By meditation, he always thinks... This morning I was walking near the (indistinct) falls, I told, "This is the best place for practicing yoga." Yoga cannot be practiced in a fashionable way in a big city with (indistinct) meditation. That is not possible. He must be free from everything, and in a secluded place, alone, he should meditate on the Supreme Lord. That is real yoga. Controlling all the senses, all disturbances of the mind. Then it is perfect yoga. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1].
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, how different is this Chapter Six different from the Patanjali's yoga-sastra and the raja-yoga?
Prabhupada: I don't think there is any.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupada: There is no fundamental difference. The same. Bhagavad-gita recommends that you should select a very secluded place in a solitary sacred place, you should make your asana, sit down perpendicularly, don't close your eyes completely, half open, and concentrate on the tip of the nose. Everything is there. "And then think of Me." But Arjuna said, he said, "Oh, it is not possible." He was a frank gentleman. He was not a hypocrite. He said that "You are recommending all these yoga practice, it is not possible for me. I am a politician, I have to execute so many other businesses. I cannot go to the secluded place and sit down like this. So you are recommending me for yoga practice, but I say I cannot." But at the present moment, they have become more than Arjuna. (laughs) What Arjuna denied, they want to practice. This is another hypocrisy. Arjuna was not an ordinary man. He was so exalted that he could speak with Krsna directly, and coming from royal family, and he's famous as great fighter. He refused, "I cannot do that." And we are taking to yoga practice. We have become more than Arjuna. This is going on. He does not think himself that "Arjuna is such a great personality, he thought himself to be incapable to practicing yoga, and we are making a show of yoga, paying somebody large amounts of money"? That's all. This is going on.
krte yad dhyayato visnum
tretayam yajato makhaih
dvapare paricaryayam
kalau tad dhari-kirtanat
[SB 12.3.52]
What was achievable by practicing yoga, that was possible... You are going?
Mr. Furman: Yes.
Prabhupada: Give him some prasada. Thank you for your kindness.
Mr. Furman: Pleasure meeting you.
Prabhupada: So in the Kali-yuga, this age, so many difficulties, social, political, religious, cultural. So in Kali-yuga the practice of yoga is not possible. It was possible in the Satya-yuga. Krte yad dhyayato visnum. That is meditation. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. But in Kali-yuga you can do that, the same achievement you can have by hari-kirtana, by chanting the holy name of the Lord. And factually you'll find our, these disciples, young boys and girls, they are not practicing in a secluded place the yoga system. They are chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. And bring any yogi in the world and talk with them and see the comparison. Because that is fashion only; it has no practical value. And here is practical value. Maybe one or two are successful, but mass of people, yoga practice is not recommended. That is not possible to be executed. But if you take to this hari-kirtana movement, Hare Krsna movement, very soon, ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati. You see practically. They are young boys and girls. At least, they have given up the four principles of sinful life and they are practicing, and they will improve. If they stick to the principles, they will improve.
Dr. Sharma: According to yoga, a yogi becomes
sama-duhkha-sukhah svasthah
sama-lostasma-kancanah
tulya-priyapriyo dhiras
tulya-nindatma-samstutih
Can it be achieved by sankirtana?
Prabhupada: Yes, everything will be achieved. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one becomes liberated from all sinful reaction of life, and he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Mukta-sangah param vrajet. That is the recommendation.
Dr. Sharma: Can I ask one more question, Swamiji? In chanting, they also say later on, gangamayi ki jaya, yamunamayi ki jaya. We also have in Ramayana jato jaya sankara sata nama haya(?) (indistinct). Sankara's kirtana in sankirtana. Some people, just like he was indicating, some people are more inclined to worship Rama, saying Hare Rama, Hare Rama instead of Hare Rama, Hare Krsna, both.
Prabhupada: There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupada: Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu krsnah svayam samabhavat [Bs. 5.39]. Rama is avatara and Krsna is svayam Bhagavan. There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: What would you classify as demigods, then?
Prabhupada: Demigod means just like you or me, ordinary living being, but they are very pious. On account of their piety they have got very good post. Just like janma... There are four: to get birth in very high, aristocratic family; to become very learned scholar; to become beautiful in bodily feature. Janmaisvarya-sruta-sri [SB 1.8.26]: high parentage, birth, to take birth in aristocratic family, in brahmana family, or very exalted royal family. This is janma. And sruta, to become very learned scholar. Janma, aisvarya, to become very rich. Janmaisvarya-sruta, sruta means education, and sri, bodily beauty. These things are obtained on account of piety, pious activities. And just the opposite, low-class family, lowborn, no money, always poverty-stricken, no education, no bodily beauty, these are the results of impious activities. So the demigods means on account of their pious activities they get the situation in higher planet where the duration of life is ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to our six months. Such ten thousands of years. Very beautiful body, facilities. There... The other day I was reading about the bodily construction of woman there. They are ever-young, the chest is very hard. (laughs) It is stated, yes. So such class of women is there, and aisvarya, nandana-kanana, so many things. The roads are paved with pearls and jewels, not these pebbles. In the higher planetary system there is facility for higher standard of material comforts. So they get there birth and enjoy for ten thousand of years. But it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, ksine punye punar martya-lokam visanti. As soon as they spend up their resultant action of pious activities, then again drop down, ksine punye punar martya-lokam visanti. And again begins life from the grass. They fall down with rains, and then they grow as grass. Then evolutional life begins, from plant life to insect life, to insect life to bird's life.
jalaja nava-laksani
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyayah
paksinam dasa-laksanam (?)
[break] Again he can make choice whether he goes to higher planetary system or lower planetary system or back to Godhead. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. He makes his choice. This is an opportunity. And the instruction is there in the Bhagavad-gita, whether you want again go to the higher planetary system, demigod's residence, yanti deva-vrata devan. Or you want to remain here, bhutejyah. Or you want to go down. Or you want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your selection. Make your selection. So you can do. Either you go again to this human form of life. This opportunity is there. If you want you can go again to the higher planetary system, live there for so many years, and again when your resultant action of pious activities is finished, you again come and become a grass, and again begin... This is going on. But where is the science to understand how the process is going on? Therefore people are kept in ignorance. They have dismissed the idea, that there is no life after death, that's all. (guest leaving) There is no education. They are kept in ignorance. That is the problem, risky civilization, that people are kept in dark ignorance about the problems of the life. They do not know. They are struggling from the beginning of life, but they do not know what is the problem of life. Neither they have any information what are all these different planets, how they are being used, who are using them. They have no information. They are making a show of going to the moon planet, Mars planet, useless attempt. And presenting some photograph from Arizona. That is going on.
Mr. Boyd: Can I ask a question? Am I to understand that women cannot go back to Godhead without being reincarnated to the male?
Prabhupada: No, not necessarily. Who says that?
Mr. Boyd: Well, for two and a half years I've been getting this from my daughter, that women cannot be reincarnated, and it didn't make sense to me. But I've asked questions and looked through the books as much as I could, and I haven't been able to find anything that said that.
Pusta Krsna: That verse, mam hi partha vyapasritya [Bg. 9.32].
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Krsna, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brahmana or... Everyone is spirit soul. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.
Guest (2): Your Grace? How can a person tell what his or her occupation or duty is supposed to be?
Prabhupada: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You have read Bhagavad-gita? So this is the duty. "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duties, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Krsna conscious...," as Arjuna was thinking. But Krsna gives you assurance, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up all other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty, how to surrender to Krsna and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty.
Dr. Sharma: What does it refer to, then, karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana?
Prabhupada: That is when you do not know what is the ultimate duty. Because you are thinking that you are Indian, somebody is thinking he's America, somebody is thinking he's this or that. So there the advice is try to relinquish the result of your action. Don't be attached to the resultant action of your duty. The idea is to become detached, but because you cannot do it immediately, therefore the advice is, "All right, you remain in your so-called duty, but don't be attached to the result of your actions." Then where the action will go? Suppose I am a businessman and I have earned, say, two million dollars. So ma phalesu kadacana, the result is already there, what shall I do it? Two millions of dollars, I shall throw it in the street? What do you think?
Dr. Sharma: Not to be attached to it.
Prabhupada: Not attached! It is attachment. "No attachment" means I have earned this two millions dollars, and I throw it away. That is no attachment. But that is also stated, yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi yat tapasyasi kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27], "Give that money to Me." Vamanadeva. "Maharaja Bali, you are so great personality. Give Me three feet of land." Then He covered the whole universe. So that is Krsna's policy. Ma phalesu kadacana. Then what shall I do with the result? "Give Me." That is bhakti. He'll not immediately give it up, but Krsna as a beggar, as Vamanadeva, He's asking, "Give Me." If you are actually following Krsna's instructions, you'll give it. The actual fact is that you become attached to Krsna and detached to everything. But as you cannot do it immediately, this is a policy. The same policy, Vamanadeva. He went to beg from Bali Maharaja. So Bali Maharaja was very munificent, he gave Him, "Yes, promise, whatever You want, I shall give." So He took everything.
Dr. Sharma: In the Eighteenth Chapter they say sve sve karmani.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: Sve sve karmani. "A man can become perfect by doing his prescribed duty."
Prabhupada: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brahmana, if you are thinking yourself as a brahmana, then you act as brahmana. You cannot act as a sudra. As a brahmana you cannot accept anyone's service, then you become sudra. You deviate from your own position. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the sudra. Paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brahmanas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a ksatriya, you can act as a vaisya, but never accept the position of a dog, a sudra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmani, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brahmana, then you must act as a brahmana. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brahmana and accept the business of a dog, that is not sve sve karmani. So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gita, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore (in) the sastra it is said kalau sudra-sambhavah. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a sudra. There is no brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau sudra-sambhavah. Everyone is a sudra. But this Krsna consciousness movement says striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah: [Bg. 9.32] never mind, even if you are sudra, take to Krsna consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaisya or sudra, it doesn't matter, or any other papa-yoni, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah, te 'pi yanti param [Bg. 9.32]. So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Krsna consciousness then you become perfect. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand. They vision everything from materialistic point of view. They have no idea of spiritual life, therefore they misunderstand. But if we read thoroughly Bhagavad-gita, then everything is clear. Sve sve karmani means he must act according to his position. If he claims to become a brahmana, he must act as brahmana. Guna-karma. If you actually have the brahmana's qualification, you must act as a brahmana. Otherwise, what is the use of claiming that "I am a brahmana"? That is not accepted.
Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada? The karmi is thinking that service to humanity is the real high platform because...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the best service to humanity, to raise them from gross ignorance of animal life. This is best service. People are in gross ignorance of animal life, and Krsna consciousness movement is trying to raise him from that animal life to spiritual life, that is the best service.
Guest (2): Prabhupada? Is Krsna right here in the room?
Prabhupada: Yes. Don't you see Krsna there? (laughter)
Guest (2): When I'm looking at the picture, is Krsna right here?
Prabhupada: Whether you look or not look, He's there. If you have got some eye disease, you cannot see. But He is there.
Dr. Sharma: Isvarah sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Hrd-dese, He is within your heart. He is within atom. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how maya works and how I might fall.
Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.
Pusta Krsna:
iccha-dvesa samutthena
dvandva-mohena bharata
sarva-bhutani sammoham
sarge yanti parantapa
[Bg. 7.27]
"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krsna, we suffer.
Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krsna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.
Vipina: So what is the choice?
Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krsna says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.
Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krsna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."
Vipina: We also say that Krsna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krsna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?
Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is maya it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.
Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.
Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.
Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the fact.
Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.
Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. What is that? Bhunjate te tv agham papah?
yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
[Bg. 3.9]
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
te pacanty atma-karanat
Pusta Krsna: Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Pusta Krsna:
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya
mukta-sangah samacara
[Bg. 3.9]
"Work done as a sacrifice for Visnu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage."
Prabhupada: Yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih. I think there you will find.
Pusta Krsna: Bhunkte stena eva sah? No? Oh, bhunjate te tv agham papah?
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat
[Bg. 3.13]
"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Vedic literature, even those who are meat-eaters, they are advised to sacrifice an animal before the deity Goddess Kali, not purchased from the slaughterhouse. That is a kind of yajna, pasumedha-yajna. That is for low-class men. But still, because he's performing the yajna, he's less sinful.
Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before I asked about a man not knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up all to Krsna and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose the question is What shall I become -- a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter?
Prabhupada: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Krsna. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya.
Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I dedicate my action to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you.
Guest (3): So I cannot know myself.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Guest (3): And intuition does not help.
Prabhupada: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all.
Guest (3): How does a man find out what his duty is?
Prabhupada: Duty is... The sastra is there. Bhagavad-gita is there. The Bible is there. So follow.
Guest (3): Whether a man should be a shopkeeper or a teacher or a carpenter, the Bible won't tell me that, and the Bhagavad-gita won't tell me that.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is there, the four divisions of human society, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brahmana's duty, ksatriya's duty, vaisya's duty, sudra's duty, brahmacari's duty, everything is there.
Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacari, then I should be a brahmacari. If I become a sudra, I act as a sudra.
Prabhupada: Yes, you act as a brahmacari, do your brahmacari work, you'll be successful.
Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?
Prabhupada: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the sastra, brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacari, grhastha or vanaprastha, sannyasi, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacari?
Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): But that's what my question is, how does one know.
Prabhupada: Then you have to go to the... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just like we were discussing Sanatana Gosvami, he has gone to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he said, "Sir, You have brought me from the entanglement of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going on. So you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is, how to act. If you want to act as a brahmacari, he'll give you direction, "You do this." If you want to act as a grhastha, he'll give you direction, "You do like this." That is wanted. The guru, the parents, the government, they should guide.
Guest (3): But it says that if I follow another person's occupation, even if I do it better than my own occupation, that is not as good as following what I ought to be doing.
Prabhupada: If you are unfit for that occupation, why should you imitate, waste your time? If you are, you are fit for becoming a carpenter, why should you imitate a brahmana? Better be expert carpenter and serve Krsna with the result of carpentry work. Then there is perfection. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam.
atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
[SB 1.2.13]
So suppose you are a carpenter. You earn something. So out of that your income, you offer something to Krsna. If, even you are poor man, you can bring some fruit or flower to Krsna. "Krsna, I am poor man, I can't give You anything more. But I have secured this fruit and flower. Kindly accept it." Krsna says, "Yes." Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati tad aham asnami [Bg. 9.26]. So where is the difficulty? Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. You remain a carpenter, but you worship Krsna. That is not a very difficult job, patram puspam phalam toyam.
Guest (3): But here in this country we have choices.
Prabhupada: In this country or that country, there is no such distinction. This patram puspam phalam toyam, any country you can get it. You cannot say in America there is no patram puspam phalam toyam, in India only. No. Everywhere it is available. Therefore this general prescription is there. Even Krsna does not say Ganga-jala. Because Ganga, if you say Ganga-jala, that is available in India. He says toyam, any jala, any water. Because any water, as soon as touches the lotus feet of Krsna, it becomes Ganga. Why Ganga is so adored? Because it is coming from the toes of Krsna. So any water touching Krsna's toes, that becomes Ganga.
Vipina: Srila Prabhupada, if we're born each with a qualification, how is this qualification developed in our early years?
Prabhupada: There is no question of developing any particular qualification. Whatever qualification you are, if you agree to surrender to Krsna, that is the best qualification. It doesn't matter what material qualification you have. It doesn't matter. You simply acquire this qualification, that "From this day I fully surrender to Krsna." That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. So that is intelligence. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Krsna. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. You can become immediately mahatma by surrendering to Krsna. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many many births to become a mahatma? Let me surrender immediately and become a mahatma. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah bhajanty ananya-manasah [Bg. 9.13] -- chant Hare Krsna, become a mahatma. It is not very difficult. You can become mahatma immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Krsna. That is the dangerous disease.
Dr. Sharma: When you say surrender, it means surrender of fruits of the action?
Prabhupada: No, surrender your life. That includes surrender of fruits and everything. Surrender your life.
Dr. Sharma: Surrender He uses many places, patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26], karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana.
Prabhupada: Yes, but that is not surrender. When you keep yourself in your so-called duty, that recommendation is there. But when you fully surrender, there is no more karma, everything is bhakti. And because you do not surrender, therefore He is recommending that you do your karma like this. But as soon as you surrender, you are above karma. Sa gunan sama-tityaitan brahma-bhuyaya, you are brahma-bhutah. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. So long you do not surrender, He is linking your activities with Krsna consciousness, "You do like this." Then one day you'll be able to surrender. Just like Dhruva Maharaja, he wanted the kingdom better than his father, grandfather. So he had to undergo so much severe austerities. He got Krsna. But when he got Krsna, he said svamin krtartho 'smi varam, "I don't want any benediction." So this position you can attain any moment, "My Lord, I surrender unto You. I don't want anything from You. Kindly give me shelter at Your lotus feet." This is the result of greatest tapasya. And Krsna gives you protection. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. So that is the highest perfection of life, to surrender to God without any reservations. Then life is perfect.
Vipina: Prabhupada, even if a person is not willing to hear spiritual knowledge, when you come and speak, a person, you know, can develop faith in Krsna or God. So why doesn't Krsna come and make it easy?
Prabhupada: Krsna has already come. What I am speaking? Krsna is there. But you have no eyes to see.
Vipina: All right, but we don't have any eyes, someone may not have eyes to see who you are, may not be willing, but when you come...
Prabhupada: Krsna and Krsna's word are not different. If you find it different, then you have no eyes to see. Krsna is absolute. When I quote Krsna's word, that means Krsna.
Vipina: But everyone sees it as different.
Prabhupada: Because he is a rascal. He has to become a sane man, then he will see. It requires tapasya. It is not so easy. That is called sahajiya. Why you want such exalted things so easily? Krsna and Krsna's words, they are the same. Vaco vacah.(?) The same thing. Why you are chanting Hare Krsna? If Krsna's name and Krsna is not the same, then what is the use of wasting time? Hm? What is that? Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh.
Pusta Krsna: Nama cintamanih krsnas?
Prabhupada: Ah,
nama cintamanih krsnas
caitanya-rasa-vigrahah
purnah suddho nitya-mukto
'bhinnatvan nama-naminoh
[Cc. Madhya 17.133]
This is the realization of chanting Hare Krsna, when you understand that nama cintamanih krsnah, this name, Krsna, is Krsna. That is the perfection of chanting. Nama cintamanih krsnas caitanya-rasa-vigrahah. Full representation or full Krsna. Purnah suddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvat, Krsna and Krsna's anything. Just like we are worshiping Krsna. If you think this is a statue of Krsna, it is different from Krsna, then you are not worshiping properly. He is Krsna. Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-mati, these are instructions. So anyway, we may be in the imperfect stage of devotional service, but if you follow the instruction, then gradually you come to the perfectional stage. There is no hopelessness. Continue. It is not that immediately one becomes perfect. But if you continue with the process, then you'll become perfect.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, I was twenty-seven years old and I learned about God through Jesus. I was twenty-seven. For thirty-five years I thought I had a relation with... [break] ...and through your knowledge that you are writing. I'm a servant of the government right now, and will it take more love of Krsna for me to be devotee, or what...?
Prabhupada: No, you can become a devotee even if you are a government servant. It does not hamper.
Guest (2): So I can hear and I can chant and I can pray and I can serve and I can do all those and still...
Prabhupada: You become a devotee. Any material condition does not hamper your devotional life. Ahaituky apratihata. If any condition of life you remain a devotee of Krsna, that is success.
Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided? But it is not necessary, but if you can cent percent engagement in Krsna, that is better. Just like Sanatana Gosvami, he was a minister, so he resigned and became cent percent servitor of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. But if it is not possible, it does not hamper.
Guest (2): But I can retire in twenty days, and if that is possible, then I can make one more good step.
Prabhupada: Yes, oh, yes. So twenty days you are going. That means compulsory retirement?
Guest (2): No, my... I can retire or not retire. I can work until eight more years as a servant of the government. And at the same time...
Prabhupada: Don't retire sentimentally. Yes, don't retire.
Guest (2): But through Krsna's love I can retire...
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but not sentimentally.
Woman guest (2): Could you... Do you think you could explain to me about the Deities and how it's different from idol worship? Because no one has been able to explain that to my understanding.
Prabhupada: Idol means your imagination. And Deity is not imaginary. Deity is installed by the authorized person and it is worshiped according to authorized methods. So it is not idol. Idol worship, you imagine something and, some doll or idol, and do in your own way, that is idol worship.
Pusta Krsna: She's saying but it's manufactured, it's made, graven.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. But it is made according to the Vedic principles. Just like in the Vedas, Krsna's form is described, venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam [Bs. 5.30]. Krsna is playing on His flute, venum kvanantam. His eyes are like the petals of the lotus flower. So if you follow the description, then it is coming from the Vedic literature or Vedic knowledge. It is not that an artistic way of imagining some idol, the eyes are like this and He must play flute. It is not like that.
Woman guest (2): That's because it came from scriptures instead of from men's minds.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore it is authorized. When you take anything from the statute, book, that is law. And if you manufacture something, that is not law. Just like, I'll give you one very good example. Just like in your front of your house there is U.S. letterbox. So another man, he sees that the box is in front of his house, "Why shall I go so far? Let me manufacture a box here." So he's posting. After six months, he'll see all these letters are lying there. (laughter) And one who is posting that authorized box, his letter is going to thousands and thousands of miles away. So you cannot imitate. If you imitate U.S. letterbox in front of your house and post your letters, it will never go, it will remain there.
Guest (4): Your Grace? I don't understand how it can be all right for a person to lie, even if he is a shopkeeper or a diplomat.
Prabhupada: But you cannot do business without speaking lies; you have to do it. What can be done?
Guest (4): You can do business without speaking lies -- you just don't make so much money.
Prabhupada: That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita. What is that? Sa-dosam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48]. Even your profession is infected with so many faults, you don't agree, don't give it up. He's giving the example: the fire is so nice, purify, still there is smoke. So in the material world, whatever you do, there will be some fault. If you want faultless action, that is not possible. Therefore we cannot give up your occupational duty even there are some faults. Sa-dosam api na tyajet.
Pusta Krsna:
sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah
para-dharmat svanusthitat
svabhava-niyatam karma
kurvan napnoti kilbisam
[Bg. 18.47]
"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly."
Prabhupada: No, another, sa-dosam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48].
Pusta Krsna: Sa-dosam api na tyajet.
Prabhupada: Hm, what is that verse?
Pusta Krsna: Saha-jam karma kaunteya.
Prabhupada: Ah, saha-jam karma kaunteya. You are carpenter, do it. Don't try to become a goldsmith, because you cannot do that. Remain a carpenter.
Pusta Krsna:
sa-dosam api na tyajet
sarvarambha hi dosena
dhumenagnir ivavrtah
[Bg. 18.48]
Prabhupada: Anything you do, there is some fault. Even fire, there is smoke. Better in a particular type of occupation in which you are expert, do that, but with the result you serve Krsna.
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, it says also that having come to the material world -- I have forgotten the verse -- you cannot be without action, He says to Arjuna.
Prabhupada: Material world means you must act, then you can live. Otherwise you will die.
Dr. Sharma: Also since every action has some fault, we will be always doing some fault.
Prabhupada: Yes, so in spite of fault, you must act.
Dr. Sharma: There are two choices, either to surrender to God...
Prabhupada: Surrender to God, there is no fault. That is the highest faultless action. And so long you do not surrender, anything we do there is fault. Anything you eat... That is stated:
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat
[Bg. 3.13]
Even if you prepare vegetable, not meat, still you are sinful. It is not that those who are meat-eaters, they are only sinful, and you are eating vegetable, you are not sinful, no. Anything you cook for yourself without being offered to the Deity or Krsna, you are sinful. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. Now, pacanti, you may do whatever you like to eat, but if it is not prasadam, then you are sinful. It is not the question of... Sometimes they mistake the vegetable is good, meat is not good. May be, comparative. But either vegetable or meat, if you simply cook it for your tongue's satisfaction, then it is sinful. And if you offer to Krsna, maybe only little patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26], not very gorgeous, palatable dishes, and if you eat that, then bhunjate, again. Yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih, he becomes free from all sinful actions. As there is sin in cutting the throat of an animal, similarly, there is sin in destroying a vegetable. Maybe more or less sinful. But it is sinful.
Mr. Boyd: We can even offer a drink of water to Krsna before we drink it, can't we?
Prabhupada: Yes, you can think of Krsna. That is stated.
Pusta Krsna: Raso 'ham apsu?
Prabhupada: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh [Bg. 7.8]. When you drink water, you drink water for some taste, nice taste to quench your thirst. So that taste is Krsna. Krsna says raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Apsu does not mean only water. Suppose you are drinking, so you are getting some pleasure by the taste of the drinking, and if you think that this taste is Krsna, then gradually you'll give up this drinking. Because you'll be purified by thinking of Krsna. So some way or other think of Krsna and your life is successful. Yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet. So the process is given, you can think of Krsna twenty-four hours if you practice. Who can avoid drinking water? At least twice, thrice, we drink water, and if we think the taste is Krsna... Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. Who can avoid seeing the sunshine and moonshine? As soon as you see the sunshine and the moonshine, if we think "Here is Krsna," the sunshine is Krsna. So this thinking of Krsna, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg. 6.47]. He is first-class yogi who is always thinking of Krsna in every step of life. That is first-class yogi. He does not see anything except Krsna. And the process is there. If we adopt, we can think of Krsna. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. It is not difficult, simply it requires practice. (sound of thunder) Sabdah khe paurusam nrsu. Now this sound in the sky, that is recommended, that the sound in the sky, Krsna says, "I am the sound." So we can think of Krsna as soon as there is sound. Not only this sound, when the airplane goes, drurururururu, that is also Krsna. The practice. It doesn't require much learning, much education, simply take the words of Krsna and he becomes a vast learned person. Krsna is giving all the instruction. (sound of thunder) And actually, that is Krsna. You cannot create such sound. It is Krsna's management that there is sound while the cloud is rolling by air.
Guest (3): Prabhupada, here in the Western world, we're so caught up in sense enjoyment.
Prabhupada: We do not speak of Western world or Eastern world, we speak for all world. What we are speaking, that is for all world, not Western or Eastern. There is no such thing in the teachings of Krsna. He never says that it is meant for the Eastern or Western. He says sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [Bg. 14.4]. For everyone.
Guest (4): Your Grace, how is it that the devotees who run the great temple of Jagannatha refuse to allow foreigners and certain low-caste people, when this was the favorite place of Lord Caitanya, who, like you say, advocated that it should be taught in every town and village?
Prabhupada: Jagannatha Puri?
Guest (4): Are these administrators fallen?
Pusta Krsna: He's asking why can't your disciples from the West in particular, who are low-class particular people, like the Mohammedans, as traditional, they are not allowed in the Jagannatha Puri temple.
Prabhupada: That is their fault. They should not have done so. That is their, what is called? Sectarian prejudice.
Guest (4): Was that the policy when Bhaktivinoda Thakura ran the temple? I understand that he at one time was the main administrator. (loud crashing of thunder)
Prabhupada: So you don't take simply Jagannatha temple. There are many other temples, they allow. It is a particular management body, they do not allow. But that is not the sanction of the sastra. That is not the sanction. Suppose in your private house you make some private law. That is your business. But actually temple is open for everyone. That is stated. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Even one is born of low-grade family, he can accept. There is no injunction. That is sastra. But there are rascals who do not follow. They have their own imagination. That is another thing. Krsna never said that "Only the brahmanas or Indians or Hindus can take shelter of Me." Krsna never said. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh, whatever he may be. There is no restriction. Just like Ganges water, anyone can take bath. It is not that only a particular person or particular community can take bath. Anyone can take, and he becomes purified. There is an example, na hi harate jyotsna candras candala vesmani.(?) When there is moonlight, there is no discrimination that here is a bhangi's house, candala's house, there should be no moonshine. The moonshine is open in the palace of the king or in the house of a candala, na hi harate jyotsna candras candala vesmani. So Krsna's mercy is for everyone. It is not restricted to a certain community or class of people, no. Anyone can take advantage of Krsna consciousness. And that is, practically they are doing. Therefore in India, so they say that I am killing Hindu dharma, the Mayavadis, that Bhaktivedanta Swami hindu-dharma ka nasta. This is their...
Dr. Sharma: That is not true.
Prabhupada: But they are saying like that. This Karpathadaji(?) and others, they are against me.
Dr. Sharma: Mudha-mate.
Prabhupada: But they are big, big men. What can be done? Here also Christians are not very happy also. And there, Hindus are not happy. So where shall I go? (laughter) I cannot stay here, neither in India. This is my position. Neither in my temple. This is my position. Nor India, nor America, nor Europe, nor any place. So narada muni bhajaya vina. (laughter)
Dr. Sharma: Sarva-bhutanam.
Prabhupada: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If Krsna wants... In old age I was living a retired life in Vrndavana. He asked me "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But Krsna asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in Vrndavana, I cannot live there. But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with maya.
Devotees: Jaya.
Dr. Sharma: It is said in sastra that it is better to go out and find salvation for others than to find salvation for yourself.
Prabhupada: One who seeks salvation for others, he's already salvation.
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, how he can arrange salvation for others? So he hasn't got to seek for salvation.
Dr. Sharma: How these devotees are finding salvation for others?
Prabhupada: That means they are already in the platform of salvation.
Dr. Sharma: Through them, you are working for the salvation of others.
Prabhupada: Janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. That is the injunction, that first of all you become perfect, then try to make others perfect. So anyone is actually trying to do perfection for others, he is already perfect.
Dr. Sharma: The devotees are working for the salvation for everyone.
Prabhupada: He's already perfect. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. The one who's trying for others' salvation... That is a devotee's business. Ordinary man cannot do it. Because he's doing that, it is to be understood that he's already on the platform of... Because salvation means to remain his own position. Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih [SB 2.10.6]. Svarupa is to serve God. So if one is serving on behalf of God, then he's in svarupa, mukti. Others are acting for his own benefit, but a devotee is acting for others' benefit. Therefore he's already on the platform of liberation.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, should I have resigned my membership with the Christian organization? Should I have? I did. Could I serve Krsna just as well and also through a Christian? I don't see how I could.
Prabhupada: No, we don't say like that. (laughs) Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaisnava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect.
Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Krsna, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior.
Prabhupada: The thing is that sometimes we Indians come to Western country for better education. The university in India or the university in U.S. or in Europe is the same, but why does he go after Indian university education to foreign university? Why does he go?
Guest (2): Superior.
Prabhupada: That's it. God is there, the dictionary is there. Sometimes pocket dictionary, sometimes big national encyclopedia dictionary. The Christians, they have no idea what is God. They believe in God, but if you ask them what is God, who is God, they cannot say. But we can say. That is the difference.
Woman guest (2): It is not as good.
Prabhupada: So if you want more knowledge about God, then you must come to Krsna.
Guest (2): That's how I believe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve God as a Christian in a church?
Prabhupada: That is have already explained, that you serve God in any position, but if you want to know about God more, then you have to come here. Now ask any Christian what is God, who is God, what is His form, what He is doing. Can he answer? Nobody can answer. He knows God is great. How great He is, who is that God, they cannot answer. To some extent it is all right, but if you want to know full extent, then you have come to Krsna consciousness. "Two plus two is equal to four" is mathematics, but if you want to know higher mathematics, you have to go some higher college. "Two plus two" is also mathematics, is it not? Everyone knows two plus two equal to four. So when you go to higher university, that "two plus two" does not change, but you know more about it. Because one has gone to higher university, the previous education, "two plus two," has changed, it is not that. But as a Christian you understand God is great, "two plus two," but how He is great, that you have to learn in the Vedas. That is real education. Because you do not know how He is great, therefore you do so many sinful activities. Otherwise, how it is possible to maintain slaughterhouse? Christian doctrine says "Thou shall not kill." But he does not understand; therefore his business has become to kill only. This is the defect. Why you are disobeying the orders of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? Because you do not understand him properly.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, when we don't eat meat in the...
Prabhupada: No, I mean to say...
Guest (2): We didn't know why we didn't. But now I know why, because the animal is a living entity.
Prabhupada: No, God says "Everyone is My son."
Vipina: In the Bible, they don't accept that the animals and certain living entities are eternal, are going to go back to God.
Prabhupada: They may believe, but that is another thing. You may believe something blindly. Come to philosophy, come to science. Because you believe something, it is a fact -- that is not...
Vipina: But they base that belief on their scripture.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Vipina: The Bible.
Prabhupada: No, what is that belief?
Vipina: Can you explain it? That there are certain people, they'll be resurrected from the dead at the time of the coming of the Lord and others will not, or something?
Guest (2): Well, from my knowledge, I never knew that anyone but the human being would be resurrected. Now that's a point where the animal will be resurrected. I didn't know that.
Prabhupada: So what is that?
Hari-sauri: They think that transmigration only applies to human beings. Or in fact they don't even accept transmigration. They think that you've just got one lifetime.
Prabhupada: Why? Transmigration for everyone. The Darwin's theory, evolution, it is like that, transmigration. The living soul is changing bodies, that's a fact. We can experience in our own life. The child is changing body to boyhood. The boy is changing his body to youthhood. So therefore it's a fact. The living entity is there within the body, and the body is changed. This simple truth they cannot understand. When a child grows up to become a boy, so what is the change? The change is body. But everyone knows the same child has become boy. Is it not? What do you think?
Guest (2): Well, when you leave this planet you go to sleep.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is another thing. Studying, that a child is grown to become a boy, he has changed his body. Does it mean the living entity who was in the child's body is different from the living entity within the boy?
Guest (2): No difference.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is a fact that the living entity is eternal and the body is changed. So where is the difficulty to understand this?
Vipina: They can understand it, but their scripture doesn't accept reincarnation.
Prabhupada: Therefore you should give up your philosophy and science. That "Because my scripture does not allow me to become educated, I shall remain a fool." (laughter) What is this?
Guest (2): A beautiful example is where a caterpillar will be, a cocoon will form over a caterpillar, and when the cocoon breaks, it's a butterfly.
Prabhupada: That's all right, transmigration.
Guest (2): The living entity changed bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is common sense. If they cannot understand this commonsense affair, then how they are educated?
Dr. Sharma: Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22].
Prabhupada: Yes. Common sense. And we are practically experiencing. When the child has grown to become a young man, the mother does not cry, "Oh, my child is gone." She knows, she knows that "Here is my child. Simply he has changed his body." So this is a fact, that we are changing bodies but we are eternal. This is the conclusion. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So unless one is properly educated, where is the talk of advancing? So this is the beginning of spiritual education, to understand that the living entity is eternal and the body is changing. And then next question will be that if the body is changing, then this body will be changed, so after my death what kind of body I am going to accept? That is education. That is education. And if I remain blind, I do not care, and next life I become a dog, then what is the value of my present education? In spite of all education, next life I am going to become a dog or tree, then what is the value of my education? That education is not. Throughout the whole world perhaps we are giving this education. Throughout the whole world, find out any institution or university where this education is given. No. Simply big, big talks. And you talk something nonsense and take laureate, Nobel Laureate. That's all. It is going on. Somebody is talking nonsense that life is produced from matter, from chemicals, and if we challenge, "All right, combine some matter in egg form and bring life," that rascal will say, "No, it will take millions of years." And if the bird is giving life in five days, why you are taking doctorate title? Give the chicken doctorate title. The rascals are simply bluffing the people. This is going on in the name of education. Can anyone produce life by a combination of chemicals? And these rascals are advertising. We challenge, "All right, not very big thing. Egg, you can see there is some white substance and yellow substance, and you are very big scientist, you find out what are the chemicals and combine it and put it under legs of the chicken or in the incubator and bring life. Otherwise, why you are talking nonsense and cheating people?" Not only cheating people, people are becoming godless. Everything is science. And the science is this, cheating, that life can be produced by chemicals.
Dr. Sharma: The problem is the definition of life. It has not yet been defined, and the definition of life accepted by them is not the real definition of life.
Prabhupada: The definition of life they have given, resistance. If you want to come to kill me, I resist you. That is life. Everyone knows it.
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada, it's a quarter to nine.
Prabhupada: That is life. If I want to cut this table it will not resist. But if you want to kill me, I'll resist. That is life. Where is the difficulty?
Dr. Sharma: No, the way we understand, there is no difficulty. The way scientists understand there is a lot of difficulty.
Prabhupada: What is that scientist? What is their definition? What do they say?
Pusta Krsna: Svarupa Damodara?
Svarupa Damodara: Life is a..., they say the question "What is life?" you should not inquire. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Oh, that is... You keep yourself in darkness. You remain fool. That is scientific. So long you remain a rascal, it is scientific. This is their...
Svarupa Damodara: They say it is unscientific question.
Prabhupada: And because they cannot answer you, boba satru naya. In Bengali, if one is dumb, he has no enemy, but he cannot speak anything. Tavac sobhate murkha yavat kincin na bhasate murkha (?)(Bengali) So murkha, you remain murkha, then that is scientific.
Dr. Sharma: Kapila has said (Sanskrit).
Prabhupada: So don't ask for life, that is scientific. Do you think it is all right?
Dr. Sharma: No, as a scientist, I don't believe that.
Prabhupada: Then this is going on. They cannot do anything, and still they are drawing high salary. Especially when they say that life is made of chemicals and they cannot experimentally prove it. How bluffing it is. We say a simple thing, that "Don't talk of big, big life. You just produce from the egg, because egg you require so many chicken to cut their throat. So produce it from chemicals." Why do they not do it? Is anyone to answer this? If life is chemical combination, you see in the egg there is some white substance, some yellow substance, so you analyze and find out what are the chemicals and combine it and color it yellow and pack up in a cellulose cover, and then put it, bring life. Why they cannot do it? Where is the science? Simply talking big, big words? What do you think? Am I right or wrong?
Mr. Boyd: What do I think? Well, it's very difficult at this particular time. It hasn't been done yet; it's been claimed, as you say. Yet we as individuals request them to do that, for some reason.
Prabhupada: Yes, unless they do that, what is the use? What is the use of your big, big talking?
Vipina: He's thinking that sometime they'll do it in the future.
Prabhupada: Therefore he should not become scientist. The chicken is doing it within five days. (laughter) You transfer your doctorate, laureate to the chicken. You are cheating others. Give the title to the chicken.
Guest (2): If and when Krsna wants the scientists to come up with the answer, then is when, only when they'll have the answer.
Prabhupada: But Krsna has already given to the chicken. (laughter) He's so unfortunate that Krsna is not giving him the intelligence. He's so unfortunate. But the fortunate chicken has already got the intelligence. So at least the chicken is fortunate than these so-called scientists. That is our conclusion. He's so unfortunate that he doesn't get the fortune of the chicken. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. He's a mudha, rascal. That's all. He's claiming something which is impossible. That is mudha. If somebody, if a child, sometimes childish nature, "Mother, give me that moon." It is possible mother can give the moon to the child? So mother cheats him. She gives him a mirror, "You see, here is a mirror, moon here." That's all. But is that moon? So a child may be satisfied with this class of moon, but one who is sane man, his father will not be satisfied. It is impossible. We give this challenge to any scientist, that "You are unnecessarily, uselessly working to produce life from chemicals." That is our challenge. "You cannot do it." (Hindi) So we challenge the so-called scientists that "You rascal, you cannot do it." It is not possible. [break]
Mr. Boyd: ...this is ninety-six cents, so why put it back?
Prabhupada: That's all right, this is one way of studying, but when you have studied the chemicals, combine them and bring a human life. Science means observation and experiment. Simply observing, analyzing that it is a combination of chemi..., that is not perfect science. When you... This is theory. When you practically bring into action, that is called practical... What is called?
Svarupa Damodara: Experimentation?
Prabhupada: No, no, in science there are two con..., theoretical and practical. So theoretical knowledge is no perfect. When you bring it in practical action, then it is science. In the scientific laboratory, they do not simply theorize; they test it in the laboratory. That is science. If you cannot test it by combination of the chemicals which you have analyzed in your..., then it is failure, is it not?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.
Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Krsna consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8].
Svarupa Damodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Real knowledge is covered.
Prabhupada: Just like this planetary system. So many planets are there. They do not know anything. And they are going to the Mars. They are going to the moon. All bluff. Two things unsolved. They do not know what is life and they do not know what are these planetary system. And still, they are speaking on these two subjects as authority. That is bluff.
Svarupa Damodara: So we conclude that without understanding the existence of God, these two problems can never be answered.
Prabhupada: Never be. You hear from God; then you have got perfect knowledge. And if you want to become scientist more than God, then you'll never know it. But their real propaganda is "There is no God." That is their real propaganda.
Svarupa Damodara: That is the root cause of this illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes. They want to prove "There is no God. Everything is science." However rascaldom it may be, "It is everything." But we are preaching about God. How we can tolerate? We must expose them. That is our business.
Mr. Boyd: There's a saying that's printed on a piece of stationery I get from one of my supply houses of a particular piece of equipment this man designs and sells. And on the bottom he indicates, "Somebody has to lead."
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is a commonsense philosophy, that the earth is there, everything is coming out of earth. As mother is giving birth to so many children, similarly the earth is giving birth to so many children. So the children are there, the mother is there, and where is the father? But these rascals, they say "Without father." Is it possible for the mother to give children without father?
Mr. Boyd: Not legally. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Legally or illegally, there must be some father.
Mr. Boyd: I realize that.
Prabhupada: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children.
Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays.
Prabhupada: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?
Svarupa Damodara: It is by chance.
Prabhupada: "By chance," just see. Is that explanation? Hmm? If one head is bald-headed, why by chance it does not come again, hair? And these plants and creepers are coming by chance, just see. We have to accept this explanation? (aside:) You sit down. That is for the outsider. So this is explanation by the scientist, "By chance." Just see. How fools they are.
Svarupa Damodara: Chance is their instrument of explanation.
Prabhupada: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge. Wash out. But we know,
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
a nadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]
There is no question of chance. There is cause. So all right, thank you very much. (end)
Prabhupada: They should be trained up. Therefore Vedic civilization is training. Some section of the people, they should be very intellectuals, brain, just like to maintain this body we require first of all the brain. If the brain is not order, then other parts, they may be there, but they are also useless. So similarly, in the society, some intellectuals should be maintained. They are called brahmanas, and some of the brahmanas, they are sannyasis. They are simply meant for giving good instruction. They should personally become very good and intellectual, and they should give instruction to other people what is the value of life, how to live. This is one section. They should be free from the anxiety of maintaining themselves. The society should treat them as children and give them all necessities, bare necessities, not they are meant for living very luxuriously. No. Simple living. Then the next class, ksatriyas, the politicians, administrators, they are also required to give protection to the people from injury. Ksatriya, ksat means injury, and trayate, "one who saves people from injury." It is ksatriya's duty. So ksatriya should protect all the living entities, including the animals. They are also subjects. So the first, intellectual brahmanas, then ksatriya. Then vaisyas, their business is to produce food. Food production you can do by agriculture, krsi, and by giving protection to the cows. If you get sufficient food grains, like rice, wheat, pulses, and sufficient milk -- from milk you get yogurt, butter, ghee -- then your all food problem is solved. You must eat. You must eat, you must live properly. So this first, second, third, the intellectual class, the administrative class, and the productive class, these three classes must be there in the society. And those who cannot be grouped either of these three classes, they should generally help as workers. They are called sudras. So the workers means... Suppose you require a sitting place: the carpenter is there. Suppose you require a knife: so the blacksmith is there. You require clothing: the weaver is there. In this way, four classes of men. First class, second class, third class, or the intellectuals, the administrators, the producers and the general workers. This is Vedic system of division. Brahmana... This is for our living condition, and then human life especially meant for spiritual realization, self-realization. For that purpose, again, another four divisions. Generally, the brahmacari, student life; grhastha, married life; vanaprastha, retired life; and sannyasa, renounced life. So at the end of life one should be renounced from all other responsibilities and completely devote his life for Krsna consciousness, or God consciousness. In this way, when a person dies in God consciousness, his life is perfect. This is Vedic civilization. Eight divisions, varna and asrama. And if you simply produce sudras, working class, then you cannot have any happiness. That is not possible. And nowadays democratic, if you send some sudras to act as ksatriyas, they cannot do it. You have got practical experience. In Vietnam, what happened?
Pusta Krsna: The American soldiers, they were simply taking intoxication, hunting after prostitutes and running from the enemy.
Prabhupada: And when they were attacked, they were running away. Because they are sudras. How they can fight? They are not trained up as ksatriyas. Huh? Anyone who is unemployed, let him become a soldier, but he cannot fight. That is not possible. Neither this class of men can have good brain to give direction to the society. The democracy means anyone can go to the government, and because he's not ksatriya, his only business is how to get money so long he's on the post. Just like you did not like your President, Mr. Nixon. So that is the risk. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varnasrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Krsna consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varna and asrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Guna-karma, by quality. In India, the varnasrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brahmana, there is no need of ksatriya, simply sudras." Everywhere this is the position, the sudra population, kalau sudra sambhavah. In this age everyone is a sudra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born sudra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brahmana, how to become ksatriya, how to become vaisya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.
Vipina: His question is that now the government is corrupt, so what can be immediately done?
Prabhupada: How there can be, because the democracy? You are corrupt, therefore your government is corrupt. You correct yourself, the government will be automatically corrected. If you are rascals, the government will be rascals. The government means elected. So if you are not rascal, you'll not elect another rascal to take charge of the government affairs. But because you are rascal, you'll send another rascal. So how can you expect good government? You do not know whom to select. And besides that, the whole population is rascal, sudra. So anyone you elect, if he's by qualification he's a sudra, worker, he's not intelligent person, he's not brahmana, he's not ksatriya. Actually, the legislative assembly, or in your country, Senate? They should be all brahmanas. They give advice. Formerly this was the system. Although it was monarchy, even Lord Ramacandra or similar kings, they were not ruling independently -- they were taking advice from learned brahmanas, sages. So the legislative assembly should be composition of intellectual brahmanas. Then the other administrators, the President or the minister, they should be ksatriyas. In this way, if social organization is made, then there will be perfect peace. If sudras are allowed to rule over, what they know? Their only aim is that so long he is in the office, "Let me collect some money," that's all. And that will be the latest atmosphere, dasyu-dharmabhih. Rajanyair dasyu-dharmabhih. All the government men will become thieves and rogues. Dasyu, dasyu means thieves and rogues. So as the thieves and rogues capture you on the street and ask "Whatever you have got, give, otherwise I shall kill you," so this will be the position in the Kali-yuga. It is happening now. You cannot have any private property; everything you have to declare. Otherwise, it will be taken by force. So people will be very much embarrassed by two things: one thing is taxation, and another thing will be scarcity of food. In this way, all the people all over the world will be embarrassed, so much so that they will leave their home, hearth and home, acchinna-dara-dravina yasyanti giri-kananam. Being separated from family and property, they will take shelter in the hilly ranges or in the forest to get relief. This will be the position. Harassment, so much harassment, by nature, by government. So therefore for complete happy society, this Krsna consciousness movement is essential. All intelligent persons, they should join this movement and reform the present social, political, religious. All field of activities, they should reform. Then people will be happy. Not only happy in this life, but also next life. Unfortunately, the present education does not provide knowledge of next life. There is no such education. They are kept in darkness like cats and dogs. They do not know that there is life after death, and we get our next life according to our present activities -- karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. These things are unknown. Very risky life. If I am prime minister in this life or president, and if I am going to become a dog next life, then what is the benefit of becoming prime minister or president? And nature's law is that you get your next life according to the mentality at the time of death. So if I have acted like cats and dogs throughout whole life, naturally I shall think like cats and dogs at the time of death. Then next life is cats and dogs. So I may be worshiped here in a statue, that "Here is our beloved prime minister," and next life, I'm barking as a dog. Then what is the benefit?
Mr. Boyd: Well, that might depend on what kind of prime minister you were.
Prabhupada: No, that is possible, I can become prime minister or any big man. But if I do not work properly, if I work like animal, then my next life is animal. There is no consideration that "Here is a prime minister, why he should become a dog?" Nature will act. If you infect some disease, you may be prime minister or you may be a common man, if you have infected that disease, you must suffer from that disease. That is nature's law. There is no consideration that "Here is prime minister. He has infected the malaria germs. He should not suffer." Nature's law if not like that. Just like you say that in India there is malaria. So your daughter was not excused, that "Here is a girl coming of very respectable, good family. She should be excused." No excuse. You have infected malaria germ, you must suffer. So similarly, karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. We are associating with different modes of material nature, and according to our association, sat, asat, good birth or low-class birth is there -- either as demigods in the higher planetary system or human being in the middle planetary system or as animals, low class. There are three classes of birth. That depends on our association with the modes of material nature -- goodness, passion or ignorance. So at least in the human form of life nobody should be kept in ignorance. The facility must be given. That is civilization. Every human being should have the greatest opportunity to make his life successful. That is Krsna consciousness movement. Every human being is open to accept the principles of Krsna consciousness and make his life successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. This is our propaganda, to give everyone the facility of perfection of life. Now somebody may take or somebody may not take, but the basic principle of this Krsna consciousness movement is to offer everyone the best facility.
Vipina: Prabhupada, what about in the case where you have this ideal civilization with the brahmanas instructing, but the brahmanas don't agree? Just like in Bhagavad-gita, the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, there were many brahmanas, but they didn't agree.
Prabhupada: There were many brahmanas? Who said?
Vipina: Well there's..., well, there was, they were great kings, right? But they didn't agree on how..., who should have the kingdom? Arjuna and his relatives were in disagreement, great ksatriya leaders.
Prabhupada: Ksatriyas, they are not brahmanas. So when there is disagreement, there is fight. The battle will decide. That is always, at the present moment also. When there is disagreement between nation and nation, there is war declaration. That is natural.
Vipina: This is Mr. Furman and his wife, Prabhupada. Mr. Furman was the man who sold us this property.
Mr. Furman: Glad to meet you, Your Divine Grace. My wife, Lynn.
Prabhupada: I'm very glad to see you.
Mrs. Furman: We saw you on television today. Did you see? Was it Channel Four? The news has been on, it's on again at eleven. Very nice.
Mr. Furman: It was a very good representation.
Prabhupada: So it is not a sectarian religious sentimental movement. It is a movement for giving real education, knowledge, to the people all over the world without any discrimination. So at least those who are intelligent class of men, they should join and study this movement and try to broadcast for the good of the human society. The basic principles I have already explained.
Mr. Boyd: A statement was made some time ago in a conversation that somebody was looking for the Gita without the Rama. Could you explain what they might be meaning by that?
Vipina: The Gita without the...
Mr. Boyd: The Gita without the Rama, that's all the statement was, that kind of an indication.
Prabhupada: Gita without Rama?
Dr. Sharma: Perhaps they said Gita without Ramayana. (indistinct) said:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]
Which also, Hare Rama, Hare Krsna, includes Rama.
Prabhupada: Yes, there is no difference between Krsna and Rama.
Dr. Sharma: We do chant Rama and Krsna both.
Prabhupada: Krsna has said in the Gita, "I am Rama." "I am Rama."
Hari-sauri: Who made the statement?
Mr. Boyd: I don't think it makes any difference who made the statement, it was just a comment that somebody wanted the Gita without Rama, which indicated to me that they didn't want the whole picture, they didn't want the total fact. But otherwise I couldn't put the two together, because Barbara must have taken the Bhagavad-gita back to Germany with her.
Dr. Sharma: Actually here is a one-to-one translation. (Sanskrit)
Prabhupada: The Tulasi dasa's Ramayana means Rama-carita. It is not Ramayana. Rama-carita Manas. He was devotee of Lord Ramacandra. So as he was thinking of Lord Ramacandra, he has written. So he was a learned scholar, brahmana, he must have read Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavatam. So all his translation is there on the basis of the sastra, especially Bhagavata and Bhagavad-gita. You'll find many parallel passages. But Gita is the summary of all Vedic literature, and it is spoken by the Personality of Godhead. So if we fix up our attention on the Bhagavad-gita, then you can get advantage of all other sastras.
Vipina: Srila Prabhupada? This is Mr. Kruzowsky. He's a philosophy teacher at the University of Maryland. He's very much interested in yoga and meditation. He invited us to speak earlier this year in his class, philosophy and religion.
Devotee (3): And this is Emmet Holman(?) who teaches philosophy at George Mason University. He's also very interested in Indian philosophy.
Prabhupada: We had some talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. Recently our representative went to Moscow for selling our book. They have highly appreciated our books. They have given in writing appreciation.
Mr. Boyd: Your Grace, in regards to the organization of the movement, as such, I somehow am led to believe that there's no coordination between, should I say, your office, in regards to the karmi world, and the different temples. Are each..., does each temple operate by itself, or each division operate by itself?
Prabhupada: No, (indistinct). There is separate arrangement for management, but the idea and philosophy is the same. Ultimately, I am managing. I have my twenty secretaries, they are called GBC, they are assisting me to manage. Every GBC has got a certain number of temples to supervise, and ultimately, I supervise everything. Therefore I come occasionally, stay for few days to see how things are going on. I have got hundred temples, big, big temples, very nice. They have organized palatial buildings, but I cannot stay anywhere. (laughter)
Mr. Boyd: That's the trouble with being boss. If you don't do it, nobody else will.
Prabhupada: As soon as I say, "Ah, it is very nice place," the time is over, they say "You please get out." (laughter and groans from devotees)
Mr. Boyd: The school in Vrndavana, is this, I assume this is to be out there in the yard that they were clearing. When do you anticipate that will be built?
Prabhupada: When they clear the land, we are going to construct a nice building for the school. As soon as it is done, then we will organize. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan... [SB 7.6.1]. From the very beginning of life, this Bhagavata principle should be trained. That is perfect. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. They should be trained up how to read at the house of the spiritual master. They should be trained up how to control the senses, danta. Danta means to practice how to control the senses. That is the difference between human being and animal. Animal cannot be trained up how to control their senses. That is not possible. But a human being can be trained up to control his senses. The yoga practice is meant for controlling the sense. Yoga-indriya-samyami. That is the real yoga practice, not that I indulge in sense gratification as I like, and I become a yogi. This is all bogus. This is not yoga. Yoga means how to control the senses. Then I can concentrate my mind towards God realization and self-realization. If my senses are always disturbing, it is not possible to apply my mind for self-realization. That is not possible. Therefore the yoga practice, preliminary practice, is yama-niyama, controlling, niyama, under regulative principles. They are all described in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic literature also. And the ultimate end of yoga practice is to think of Krsna. That is perfection of yoga. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. By meditation, he always thinks... This morning I was walking near the (indistinct) falls, I told, "This is the best place for practicing yoga." Yoga cannot be practiced in a fashionable way in a big city with (indistinct) meditation. That is not possible. He must be free from everything, and in a secluded place, alone, he should meditate on the Supreme Lord. That is real yoga. Controlling all the senses, all disturbances of the mind. Then it is perfect yoga. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1].
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, how different is this Chapter Six different from the Patanjali's yoga-sastra and the raja-yoga?
Prabhupada: I don't think there is any.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupada: There is no fundamental difference. The same. Bhagavad-gita recommends that you should select a very secluded place in a solitary sacred place, you should make your asana, sit down perpendicularly, don't close your eyes completely, half open, and concentrate on the tip of the nose. Everything is there. "And then think of Me." But Arjuna said, he said, "Oh, it is not possible." He was a frank gentleman. He was not a hypocrite. He said that "You are recommending all these yoga practice, it is not possible for me. I am a politician, I have to execute so many other businesses. I cannot go to the secluded place and sit down like this. So you are recommending me for yoga practice, but I say I cannot." But at the present moment, they have become more than Arjuna. (laughs) What Arjuna denied, they want to practice. This is another hypocrisy. Arjuna was not an ordinary man. He was so exalted that he could speak with Krsna directly, and coming from royal family, and he's famous as great fighter. He refused, "I cannot do that." And we are taking to yoga practice. We have become more than Arjuna. This is going on. He does not think himself that "Arjuna is such a great personality, he thought himself to be incapable to practicing yoga, and we are making a show of yoga, paying somebody large amounts of money"? That's all. This is going on.
krte yad dhyayato visnum
tretayam yajato makhaih
dvapare paricaryayam
kalau tad dhari-kirtanat
[SB 12.3.52]
What was achievable by practicing yoga, that was possible... You are going?
Mr. Furman: Yes.
Prabhupada: Give him some prasada. Thank you for your kindness.
Mr. Furman: Pleasure meeting you.
Prabhupada: So in the Kali-yuga, this age, so many difficulties, social, political, religious, cultural. So in Kali-yuga the practice of yoga is not possible. It was possible in the Satya-yuga. Krte yad dhyayato visnum. That is meditation. That was possible in the Satya-yuga. But in Kali-yuga you can do that, the same achievement you can have by hari-kirtana, by chanting the holy name of the Lord. And factually you'll find our, these disciples, young boys and girls, they are not practicing in a secluded place the yoga system. They are chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. And bring any yogi in the world and talk with them and see the comparison. Because that is fashion only; it has no practical value. And here is practical value. Maybe one or two are successful, but mass of people, yoga practice is not recommended. That is not possible to be executed. But if you take to this hari-kirtana movement, Hare Krsna movement, very soon, ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati. You see practically. They are young boys and girls. At least, they have given up the four principles of sinful life and they are practicing, and they will improve. If they stick to the principles, they will improve.
Dr. Sharma: According to yoga, a yogi becomes
sama-duhkha-sukhah svasthah
sama-lostasma-kancanah
tulya-priyapriyo dhiras
tulya-nindatma-samstutih
Can it be achieved by sankirtana?
Prabhupada: Yes, everything will be achieved. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one becomes liberated from all sinful reaction of life, and he goes back to home, back to Godhead. Mukta-sangah param vrajet. That is the recommendation.
Dr. Sharma: Can I ask one more question, Swamiji? In chanting, they also say later on, gangamayi ki jaya, yamunamayi ki jaya. We also have in Ramayana jato jaya sankara sata nama haya(?) (indistinct). Sankara's kirtana in sankirtana. Some people, just like he was indicating, some people are more inclined to worship Rama, saying Hare Rama, Hare Rama instead of Hare Rama, Hare Krsna, both.
Prabhupada: There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: There is no difference.
Prabhupada: Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu krsnah svayam samabhavat [Bs. 5.39]. Rama is avatara and Krsna is svayam Bhagavan. There is no difference.
Dr. Sharma: What would you classify as demigods, then?
Prabhupada: Demigod means just like you or me, ordinary living being, but they are very pious. On account of their piety they have got very good post. Just like janma... There are four: to get birth in very high, aristocratic family; to become very learned scholar; to become beautiful in bodily feature. Janmaisvarya-sruta-sri [SB 1.8.26]: high parentage, birth, to take birth in aristocratic family, in brahmana family, or very exalted royal family. This is janma. And sruta, to become very learned scholar. Janma, aisvarya, to become very rich. Janmaisvarya-sruta, sruta means education, and sri, bodily beauty. These things are obtained on account of piety, pious activities. And just the opposite, low-class family, lowborn, no money, always poverty-stricken, no education, no bodily beauty, these are the results of impious activities. So the demigods means on account of their pious activities they get the situation in higher planet where the duration of life is ten thousands of years, and their one day is equal to our six months. Such ten thousands of years. Very beautiful body, facilities. There... The other day I was reading about the bodily construction of woman there. They are ever-young, the chest is very hard. (laughs) It is stated, yes. So such class of women is there, and aisvarya, nandana-kanana, so many things. The roads are paved with pearls and jewels, not these pebbles. In the higher planetary system there is facility for higher standard of material comforts. So they get there birth and enjoy for ten thousand of years. But it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, ksine punye punar martya-lokam visanti. As soon as they spend up their resultant action of pious activities, then again drop down, ksine punye punar martya-lokam visanti. And again begins life from the grass. They fall down with rains, and then they grow as grass. Then evolutional life begins, from plant life to insect life, to insect life to bird's life.
jalaja nava-laksani
sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyayah
paksinam dasa-laksanam (?)
[break] Again he can make choice whether he goes to higher planetary system or lower planetary system or back to Godhead. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. He makes his choice. This is an opportunity. And the instruction is there in the Bhagavad-gita, whether you want again go to the higher planetary system, demigod's residence, yanti deva-vrata devan. Or you want to remain here, bhutejyah. Or you want to go down. Or you want to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is your selection. Make your selection. So you can do. Either you go again to this human form of life. This opportunity is there. If you want you can go again to the higher planetary system, live there for so many years, and again when your resultant action of pious activities is finished, you again come and become a grass, and again begin... This is going on. But where is the science to understand how the process is going on? Therefore people are kept in ignorance. They have dismissed the idea, that there is no life after death, that's all. (guest leaving) There is no education. They are kept in ignorance. That is the problem, risky civilization, that people are kept in dark ignorance about the problems of the life. They do not know. They are struggling from the beginning of life, but they do not know what is the problem of life. Neither they have any information what are all these different planets, how they are being used, who are using them. They have no information. They are making a show of going to the moon planet, Mars planet, useless attempt. And presenting some photograph from Arizona. That is going on.
Mr. Boyd: Can I ask a question? Am I to understand that women cannot go back to Godhead without being reincarnated to the male?
Prabhupada: No, not necessarily. Who says that?
Mr. Boyd: Well, for two and a half years I've been getting this from my daughter, that women cannot be reincarnated, and it didn't make sense to me. But I've asked questions and looked through the books as much as I could, and I haven't been able to find anything that said that.
Pusta Krsna: That verse, mam hi partha vyapasritya [Bg. 9.32].
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna says that even women, he can go back to home, back to Godhead. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim. There is no such thing. Anyone who is devotee of Krsna, he or she will go back to home, back to Godhead. There is no such discrimination. Ordinarily it is supposed that woman is less intelligent than the man. That's a fact. But that is in bodily understanding. But in the spiritual platform, either woman or man or cat or dog or brahmana or... Everyone is spirit soul. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who is learned, he sees everyone on the same level of spiritual platform.
Guest (2): Your Grace? How can a person tell what his or her occupation or duty is supposed to be?
Prabhupada: Yes, duty is already prescribed, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. You have read Bhagavad-gita? So this is the duty. "You give up all other duties, you simply take to Me, surrender unto Me." This is duty. All other duties, they are temporary, and this is real duty, to surrender to God. If you think that "I am giving up all other duties, my family duties, my community duty, my national duty and so many..." Because you may think like that, that "Giving up all duties, I simply become Krsna conscious...," as Arjuna was thinking. But Krsna gives you assurance, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah: [Bg. 18.66] "Don't worry, I shall give protection. If you think that by giving up all other duties you'll be sinful, so I give you assurance that I shall give you all protection." It is clearly stated. So this is the only duty, how to surrender to Krsna and become His perfect devotee. This is the only duty.
Dr. Sharma: What does it refer to, then, karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana?
Prabhupada: That is when you do not know what is the ultimate duty. Because you are thinking that you are Indian, somebody is thinking he's America, somebody is thinking he's this or that. So there the advice is try to relinquish the result of your action. Don't be attached to the resultant action of your duty. The idea is to become detached, but because you cannot do it immediately, therefore the advice is, "All right, you remain in your so-called duty, but don't be attached to the result of your actions." Then where the action will go? Suppose I am a businessman and I have earned, say, two million dollars. So ma phalesu kadacana, the result is already there, what shall I do it? Two millions of dollars, I shall throw it in the street? What do you think?
Dr. Sharma: Not to be attached to it.
Prabhupada: Not attached! It is attachment. "No attachment" means I have earned this two millions dollars, and I throw it away. That is no attachment. But that is also stated, yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi yat tapasyasi kurusva tat mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27], "Give that money to Me." Vamanadeva. "Maharaja Bali, you are so great personality. Give Me three feet of land." Then He covered the whole universe. So that is Krsna's policy. Ma phalesu kadacana. Then what shall I do with the result? "Give Me." That is bhakti. He'll not immediately give it up, but Krsna as a beggar, as Vamanadeva, He's asking, "Give Me." If you are actually following Krsna's instructions, you'll give it. The actual fact is that you become attached to Krsna and detached to everything. But as you cannot do it immediately, this is a policy. The same policy, Vamanadeva. He went to beg from Bali Maharaja. So Bali Maharaja was very munificent, he gave Him, "Yes, promise, whatever You want, I shall give." So He took everything.
Dr. Sharma: In the Eighteenth Chapter they say sve sve karmani.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: Sve sve karmani. "A man can become perfect by doing his prescribed duty."
Prabhupada: Yes, it's a fact. If you work as a brahmana, if you are thinking yourself as a brahmana, then you act as brahmana. You cannot act as a sudra. As a brahmana you cannot accept anyone's service, then you become sudra. You deviate from your own position. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, they'll never accept anyone's service, only the sudra. Paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. When you live at the mercy of others, this is called dog's business. Just like a dog lives at the mercy of the master. So it is strictly prohibited for the brahmanas. Even in very difficult position, you can act as a ksatriya, you can act as a vaisya, but never accept the position of a dog, a sudra. This is the injunction. Sve sve karmani, you stick to your own business. If you claim as a brahmana, then you must act as a brahmana. Then you'll become successful. You cannot remain a brahmana and accept the business of a dog, that is not sve sve karmani. So everything, what is stated there in the Bhagavad-gita, that is perfect. People at the present moment, they are living at the mercy of others. That is dog's business. Therefore (in) the sastra it is said kalau sudra-sambhavah. In the Kali-yuga everyone is a sudra. There is no brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. That is generally accepted. Because at the present moment education means to get some service. What is the value of that education? If you become dependent on others, then what is the value of this education? Therefore kalau sudra-sambhavah. Everyone is a sudra. But this Krsna consciousness movement says striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah: [Bg. 9.32] never mind, even if you are sudra, take to Krsna consciousness, you'll become perfect. Either you become woman or vaisya or sudra, it doesn't matter, or any other papa-yoni, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah, te 'pi yanti param [Bg. 9.32]. So this is the most liberal movement, that it doesn't matter what you are, if you take to Krsna consciousness then you become perfect. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. He's on the Brahman platform, above all these different modes of material nature. These brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, these are differences on the material platform. But when you come to the spiritual platform, there is no such difference. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. So we are trying to bring everyone to that spiritual platform. Therefore they cannot understand. They vision everything from materialistic point of view. They have no idea of spiritual life, therefore they misunderstand. But if we read thoroughly Bhagavad-gita, then everything is clear. Sve sve karmani means he must act according to his position. If he claims to become a brahmana, he must act as brahmana. Guna-karma. If you actually have the brahmana's qualification, you must act as a brahmana. Otherwise, what is the use of claiming that "I am a brahmana"? That is not accepted.
Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada? The karmi is thinking that service to humanity is the real high platform because...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the best service to humanity, to raise them from gross ignorance of animal life. This is best service. People are in gross ignorance of animal life, and Krsna consciousness movement is trying to raise him from that animal life to spiritual life, that is the best service.
Guest (2): Prabhupada? Is Krsna right here in the room?
Prabhupada: Yes. Don't you see Krsna there? (laughter)
Guest (2): When I'm looking at the picture, is Krsna right here?
Prabhupada: Whether you look or not look, He's there. If you have got some eye disease, you cannot see. But He is there.
Dr. Sharma: Isvarah sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Hrd-dese, He is within your heart. He is within atom. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how maya works and how I might fall.
Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa? They were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or Hiranyaksa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.
Pusta Krsna:
iccha-dvesa samutthena
dvandva-mohena bharata
sarva-bhutani sammoham
sarge yanti parantapa
[Bg. 7.27]
"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.' These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me.' " Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krsna, we suffer.
Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krsna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.
Vipina: So what is the choice?
Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krsna says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.
Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krsna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."
Vipina: We also say that Krsna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krsna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?
Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is maya it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.
Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.
Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy-enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.
Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the fact.
Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.
Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk. What is that? Bhunjate te tv agham papah?
yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
[Bg. 3.9]
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
te pacanty atma-karanat
Pusta Krsna: Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Pusta Krsna:
loko 'yam karma-bandhanah
tad-artham karma kaunteya
mukta-sangah samacara
[Bg. 3.9]
"Work done as a sacrifice for Visnu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage."
Prabhupada: Yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih. I think there you will find.
Pusta Krsna: Bhunkte stena eva sah? No? Oh, bhunjate te tv agham papah?
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat
[Bg. 3.13]
"The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Vedic literature, even those who are meat-eaters, they are advised to sacrifice an animal before the deity Goddess Kali, not purchased from the slaughterhouse. That is a kind of yajna, pasumedha-yajna. That is for low-class men. But still, because he's performing the yajna, he's less sinful.
Guest (3): Your Grace, may I ask a question? Before I asked about a man not knowing what his duty was, and you spoke of the highest duty of giving up all to Krsna and becoming detached from the fruits of your action. But suppose the question is What shall I become -- a shopkeeper, a teacher, a carpenter?
Prabhupada: In any condition, you can surrender yourself to Krsna. Svakarmana tam abhyarcya.
Guest (3): Yes, but it sounds like it doesn't matter what I do as long as I dedicate my action to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Therefore you require spiritual master to guide you.
Guest (3): So I cannot know myself.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Guest (3): And intuition does not help.
Prabhupada: Intuition is wrong. It is a practice. A thief thinks "I should steal." His intuition says. He's practiced to steal and intuition says "You steal." That is not guide. Intuition means that things which you are practiced, that's all. You are accustomed, that's all.
Guest (3): How does a man find out what his duty is?
Prabhupada: Duty is... The sastra is there. Bhagavad-gita is there. The Bible is there. So follow.
Guest (3): Whether a man should be a shopkeeper or a teacher or a carpenter, the Bible won't tell me that, and the Bhagavad-gita won't tell me that.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is there, the four divisions of human society, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. So each one's duty is prescribed. Brahmana's duty, ksatriya's duty, vaisya's duty, sudra's duty, brahmacari's duty, everything is there.
Guest (3): But then you said before that if I think I'm brahmacari, then I should be a brahmacari. If I become a sudra, I act as a sudra.
Prabhupada: Yes, you act as a brahmacari, do your brahmacari work, you'll be successful.
Guest (3): But how do I know that I am thinking properly?
Prabhupada: Therefore I say it is mentioned in the sastra, brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. If you want to be a lawyer, you must know the law. Without knowing the law, how you become a lawyer? Without knowing the engineering art, how you become engineer? So either you become a brahmacari, grhastha or vanaprastha, sannyasi, or anything, you must know what you are meant for. Without knowing, how you can become brahmacari?
Guest (3): I must know what I am meant for.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): But that's what my question is, how does one know.
Prabhupada: Then you have to go to the... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Just like we were discussing Sanatana Gosvami, he has gone to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he said, "Sir, You have brought me from the entanglement of family life. Now tell me what is my duty." So that discussion is going on. So you should approach guru and take instruction from him what is, how to act. If you want to act as a brahmacari, he'll give you direction, "You do this." If you want to act as a grhastha, he'll give you direction, "You do like this." That is wanted. The guru, the parents, the government, they should guide.
Guest (3): But it says that if I follow another person's occupation, even if I do it better than my own occupation, that is not as good as following what I ought to be doing.
Prabhupada: If you are unfit for that occupation, why should you imitate, waste your time? If you are, you are fit for becoming a carpenter, why should you imitate a brahmana? Better be expert carpenter and serve Krsna with the result of carpentry work. Then there is perfection. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam.
atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
[SB 1.2.13]
So suppose you are a carpenter. You earn something. So out of that your income, you offer something to Krsna. If, even you are poor man, you can bring some fruit or flower to Krsna. "Krsna, I am poor man, I can't give You anything more. But I have secured this fruit and flower. Kindly accept it." Krsna says, "Yes." Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati tad aham asnami [Bg. 9.26]. So where is the difficulty? Svakarmana tam abhyarcya. You remain a carpenter, but you worship Krsna. That is not a very difficult job, patram puspam phalam toyam.
Guest (3): But here in this country we have choices.
Prabhupada: In this country or that country, there is no such distinction. This patram puspam phalam toyam, any country you can get it. You cannot say in America there is no patram puspam phalam toyam, in India only. No. Everywhere it is available. Therefore this general prescription is there. Even Krsna does not say Ganga-jala. Because Ganga, if you say Ganga-jala, that is available in India. He says toyam, any jala, any water. Because any water, as soon as touches the lotus feet of Krsna, it becomes Ganga. Why Ganga is so adored? Because it is coming from the toes of Krsna. So any water touching Krsna's toes, that becomes Ganga.
Vipina: Srila Prabhupada, if we're born each with a qualification, how is this qualification developed in our early years?
Prabhupada: There is no question of developing any particular qualification. Whatever qualification you are, if you agree to surrender to Krsna, that is the best qualification. It doesn't matter what material qualification you have. It doesn't matter. You simply acquire this qualification, that "From this day I fully surrender to Krsna." That everyone can do. Is there any difficulty? Simply he must agree, this qualification. That depends on him, agree or not agree. If you agree, then you become qualified. If you don't agree, you remain disqualified. So that is intelligence. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After many, many births of struggle, one who is fully in knowledge, he surrenders to Krsna. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan. Not the foolish. Foolish person cannot. But vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. You can become immediately mahatma by surrendering to Krsna. That is intelligence. Why shall I wait for many many births to become a mahatma? Let me surrender immediately and become a mahatma. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah bhajanty ananya-manasah [Bg. 9.13] -- chant Hare Krsna, become a mahatma. It is not very difficult. You can become mahatma immediately, within a second. But the disease is that you'll not agree to Krsna. That is the dangerous disease.
Dr. Sharma: When you say surrender, it means surrender of fruits of the action?
Prabhupada: No, surrender your life. That includes surrender of fruits and everything. Surrender your life.
Dr. Sharma: Surrender He uses many places, patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26], karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana.
Prabhupada: Yes, but that is not surrender. When you keep yourself in your so-called duty, that recommendation is there. But when you fully surrender, there is no more karma, everything is bhakti. And because you do not surrender, therefore He is recommending that you do your karma like this. But as soon as you surrender, you are above karma. Sa gunan sama-tityaitan brahma-bhuyaya, you are brahma-bhutah. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. So long you do not surrender, He is linking your activities with Krsna consciousness, "You do like this." Then one day you'll be able to surrender. Just like Dhruva Maharaja, he wanted the kingdom better than his father, grandfather. So he had to undergo so much severe austerities. He got Krsna. But when he got Krsna, he said svamin krtartho 'smi varam, "I don't want any benediction." So this position you can attain any moment, "My Lord, I surrender unto You. I don't want anything from You. Kindly give me shelter at Your lotus feet." This is the result of greatest tapasya. And Krsna gives you protection. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. So that is the highest perfection of life, to surrender to God without any reservations. Then life is perfect.
Vipina: Prabhupada, even if a person is not willing to hear spiritual knowledge, when you come and speak, a person, you know, can develop faith in Krsna or God. So why doesn't Krsna come and make it easy?
Prabhupada: Krsna has already come. What I am speaking? Krsna is there. But you have no eyes to see.
Vipina: All right, but we don't have any eyes, someone may not have eyes to see who you are, may not be willing, but when you come...
Prabhupada: Krsna and Krsna's word are not different. If you find it different, then you have no eyes to see. Krsna is absolute. When I quote Krsna's word, that means Krsna.
Vipina: But everyone sees it as different.
Prabhupada: Because he is a rascal. He has to become a sane man, then he will see. It requires tapasya. It is not so easy. That is called sahajiya. Why you want such exalted things so easily? Krsna and Krsna's words, they are the same. Vaco vacah.(?) The same thing. Why you are chanting Hare Krsna? If Krsna's name and Krsna is not the same, then what is the use of wasting time? Hm? What is that? Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh.
Pusta Krsna: Nama cintamanih krsnas?
Prabhupada: Ah,
nama cintamanih krsnas
caitanya-rasa-vigrahah
purnah suddho nitya-mukto
'bhinnatvan nama-naminoh
[Cc. Madhya 17.133]
This is the realization of chanting Hare Krsna, when you understand that nama cintamanih krsnah, this name, Krsna, is Krsna. That is the perfection of chanting. Nama cintamanih krsnas caitanya-rasa-vigrahah. Full representation or full Krsna. Purnah suddho nitya-mukto 'bhinnatvat, Krsna and Krsna's anything. Just like we are worshiping Krsna. If you think this is a statue of Krsna, it is different from Krsna, then you are not worshiping properly. He is Krsna. Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-mati, these are instructions. So anyway, we may be in the imperfect stage of devotional service, but if you follow the instruction, then gradually you come to the perfectional stage. There is no hopelessness. Continue. It is not that immediately one becomes perfect. But if you continue with the process, then you'll become perfect.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, I was twenty-seven years old and I learned about God through Jesus. I was twenty-seven. For thirty-five years I thought I had a relation with... [break] ...and through your knowledge that you are writing. I'm a servant of the government right now, and will it take more love of Krsna for me to be devotee, or what...?
Prabhupada: No, you can become a devotee even if you are a government servant. It does not hamper.
Guest (2): So I can hear and I can chant and I can pray and I can serve and I can do all those and still...
Prabhupada: You become a devotee. Any material condition does not hamper your devotional life. Ahaituky apratihata. If any condition of life you remain a devotee of Krsna, that is success.
Devotee (4): Must initiation be there, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Initiation must be there. Otherwise, how you'll be guided? But it is not necessary, but if you can cent percent engagement in Krsna, that is better. Just like Sanatana Gosvami, he was a minister, so he resigned and became cent percent servitor of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. But if it is not possible, it does not hamper.
Guest (2): But I can retire in twenty days, and if that is possible, then I can make one more good step.
Prabhupada: Yes, oh, yes. So twenty days you are going. That means compulsory retirement?
Guest (2): No, my... I can retire or not retire. I can work until eight more years as a servant of the government. And at the same time...
Prabhupada: Don't retire sentimentally. Yes, don't retire.
Guest (2): But through Krsna's love I can retire...
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but not sentimentally.
Woman guest (2): Could you... Do you think you could explain to me about the Deities and how it's different from idol worship? Because no one has been able to explain that to my understanding.
Prabhupada: Idol means your imagination. And Deity is not imaginary. Deity is installed by the authorized person and it is worshiped according to authorized methods. So it is not idol. Idol worship, you imagine something and, some doll or idol, and do in your own way, that is idol worship.
Pusta Krsna: She's saying but it's manufactured, it's made, graven.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. But it is made according to the Vedic principles. Just like in the Vedas, Krsna's form is described, venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam [Bs. 5.30]. Krsna is playing on His flute, venum kvanantam. His eyes are like the petals of the lotus flower. So if you follow the description, then it is coming from the Vedic literature or Vedic knowledge. It is not that an artistic way of imagining some idol, the eyes are like this and He must play flute. It is not like that.
Woman guest (2): That's because it came from scriptures instead of from men's minds.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore it is authorized. When you take anything from the statute, book, that is law. And if you manufacture something, that is not law. Just like, I'll give you one very good example. Just like in your front of your house there is U.S. letterbox. So another man, he sees that the box is in front of his house, "Why shall I go so far? Let me manufacture a box here." So he's posting. After six months, he'll see all these letters are lying there. (laughter) And one who is posting that authorized box, his letter is going to thousands and thousands of miles away. So you cannot imitate. If you imitate U.S. letterbox in front of your house and post your letters, it will never go, it will remain there.
Guest (4): Your Grace? I don't understand how it can be all right for a person to lie, even if he is a shopkeeper or a diplomat.
Prabhupada: But you cannot do business without speaking lies; you have to do it. What can be done?
Guest (4): You can do business without speaking lies -- you just don't make so much money.
Prabhupada: That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita. What is that? Sa-dosam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48]. Even your profession is infected with so many faults, you don't agree, don't give it up. He's giving the example: the fire is so nice, purify, still there is smoke. So in the material world, whatever you do, there will be some fault. If you want faultless action, that is not possible. Therefore we cannot give up your occupational duty even there are some faults. Sa-dosam api na tyajet.
Pusta Krsna:
sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah
para-dharmat svanusthitat
svabhava-niyatam karma
kurvan napnoti kilbisam
[Bg. 18.47]
"It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly."
Prabhupada: No, another, sa-dosam api na tyajet [Bg. 18.48].
Pusta Krsna: Sa-dosam api na tyajet.
Prabhupada: Hm, what is that verse?
Pusta Krsna: Saha-jam karma kaunteya.
Prabhupada: Ah, saha-jam karma kaunteya. You are carpenter, do it. Don't try to become a goldsmith, because you cannot do that. Remain a carpenter.
Pusta Krsna:
sa-dosam api na tyajet
sarvarambha hi dosena
dhumenagnir ivavrtah
[Bg. 18.48]
Prabhupada: Anything you do, there is some fault. Even fire, there is smoke. Better in a particular type of occupation in which you are expert, do that, but with the result you serve Krsna.
Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, it says also that having come to the material world -- I have forgotten the verse -- you cannot be without action, He says to Arjuna.
Prabhupada: Material world means you must act, then you can live. Otherwise you will die.
Dr. Sharma: Also since every action has some fault, we will be always doing some fault.
Prabhupada: Yes, so in spite of fault, you must act.
Dr. Sharma: There are two choices, either to surrender to God...
Prabhupada: Surrender to God, there is no fault. That is the highest faultless action. And so long you do not surrender, anything we do there is fault. Anything you eat... That is stated:
yajna-sistasinah santo
mucyante sarva-kilbisaih
bhunjate te tv agham papa
ye pacanty atma-karanat
[Bg. 3.13]
Even if you prepare vegetable, not meat, still you are sinful. It is not that those who are meat-eaters, they are only sinful, and you are eating vegetable, you are not sinful, no. Anything you cook for yourself without being offered to the Deity or Krsna, you are sinful. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. Now, pacanti, you may do whatever you like to eat, but if it is not prasadam, then you are sinful. It is not the question of... Sometimes they mistake the vegetable is good, meat is not good. May be, comparative. But either vegetable or meat, if you simply cook it for your tongue's satisfaction, then it is sinful. And if you offer to Krsna, maybe only little patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26], not very gorgeous, palatable dishes, and if you eat that, then bhunjate, again. Yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante sarva-kilbisaih, he becomes free from all sinful actions. As there is sin in cutting the throat of an animal, similarly, there is sin in destroying a vegetable. Maybe more or less sinful. But it is sinful.
Mr. Boyd: We can even offer a drink of water to Krsna before we drink it, can't we?
Prabhupada: Yes, you can think of Krsna. That is stated.
Pusta Krsna: Raso 'ham apsu?
Prabhupada: Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh [Bg. 7.8]. When you drink water, you drink water for some taste, nice taste to quench your thirst. So that taste is Krsna. Krsna says raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. Apsu does not mean only water. Suppose you are drinking, so you are getting some pleasure by the taste of the drinking, and if you think that this taste is Krsna, then gradually you'll give up this drinking. Because you'll be purified by thinking of Krsna. So some way or other think of Krsna and your life is successful. Yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet. So the process is given, you can think of Krsna twenty-four hours if you practice. Who can avoid drinking water? At least twice, thrice, we drink water, and if we think the taste is Krsna... Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. Who can avoid seeing the sunshine and moonshine? As soon as you see the sunshine and the moonshine, if we think "Here is Krsna," the sunshine is Krsna. So this thinking of Krsna, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg. 6.47]. He is first-class yogi who is always thinking of Krsna in every step of life. That is first-class yogi. He does not see anything except Krsna. And the process is there. If we adopt, we can think of Krsna. Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. It is not difficult, simply it requires practice. (sound of thunder) Sabdah khe paurusam nrsu. Now this sound in the sky, that is recommended, that the sound in the sky, Krsna says, "I am the sound." So we can think of Krsna as soon as there is sound. Not only this sound, when the airplane goes, drurururururu, that is also Krsna. The practice. It doesn't require much learning, much education, simply take the words of Krsna and he becomes a vast learned person. Krsna is giving all the instruction. (sound of thunder) And actually, that is Krsna. You cannot create such sound. It is Krsna's management that there is sound while the cloud is rolling by air.
Guest (3): Prabhupada, here in the Western world, we're so caught up in sense enjoyment.
Prabhupada: We do not speak of Western world or Eastern world, we speak for all world. What we are speaking, that is for all world, not Western or Eastern. There is no such thing in the teachings of Krsna. He never says that it is meant for the Eastern or Western. He says sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah yah [Bg. 14.4]. For everyone.
Guest (4): Your Grace, how is it that the devotees who run the great temple of Jagannatha refuse to allow foreigners and certain low-caste people, when this was the favorite place of Lord Caitanya, who, like you say, advocated that it should be taught in every town and village?
Prabhupada: Jagannatha Puri?
Guest (4): Are these administrators fallen?
Pusta Krsna: He's asking why can't your disciples from the West in particular, who are low-class particular people, like the Mohammedans, as traditional, they are not allowed in the Jagannatha Puri temple.
Prabhupada: That is their fault. They should not have done so. That is their, what is called? Sectarian prejudice.
Guest (4): Was that the policy when Bhaktivinoda Thakura ran the temple? I understand that he at one time was the main administrator. (loud crashing of thunder)
Prabhupada: So you don't take simply Jagannatha temple. There are many other temples, they allow. It is a particular management body, they do not allow. But that is not the sanction of the sastra. That is not the sanction. Suppose in your private house you make some private law. That is your business. But actually temple is open for everyone. That is stated. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Even one is born of low-grade family, he can accept. There is no injunction. That is sastra. But there are rascals who do not follow. They have their own imagination. That is another thing. Krsna never said that "Only the brahmanas or Indians or Hindus can take shelter of Me." Krsna never said. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh, whatever he may be. There is no restriction. Just like Ganges water, anyone can take bath. It is not that only a particular person or particular community can take bath. Anyone can take, and he becomes purified. There is an example, na hi harate jyotsna candras candala vesmani.(?) When there is moonlight, there is no discrimination that here is a bhangi's house, candala's house, there should be no moonshine. The moonshine is open in the palace of the king or in the house of a candala, na hi harate jyotsna candras candala vesmani. So Krsna's mercy is for everyone. It is not restricted to a certain community or class of people, no. Anyone can take advantage of Krsna consciousness. And that is, practically they are doing. Therefore in India, so they say that I am killing Hindu dharma, the Mayavadis, that Bhaktivedanta Swami hindu-dharma ka nasta. This is their...
Dr. Sharma: That is not true.
Prabhupada: But they are saying like that. This Karpathadaji(?) and others, they are against me.
Dr. Sharma: Mudha-mate.
Prabhupada: But they are big, big men. What can be done? Here also Christians are not very happy also. And there, Hindus are not happy. So where shall I go? (laughter) I cannot stay here, neither in India. This is my position. Neither in my temple. This is my position. Nor India, nor America, nor Europe, nor any place. So narada muni bhajaya vina. (laughter)
Dr. Sharma: Sarva-bhutanam.
Prabhupada: No, I have no, I mean to say, grudge against. If Krsna wants... In old age I was living a retired life in Vrndavana. He asked me "Get out, go to America." So I came. At the age of seventy years, actually nobody goes out of home. But Krsna asked me, "Get out and go." So I came. And although I have got the best temple in Vrndavana, I cannot live there. But a fighting soldier is honored by the government. He maybe dies, he is recognized by the government, "Here is a soldier, laid down his life by fighting." So we prefer that life. We shall die fighting with maya.
Devotees: Jaya.
Dr. Sharma: It is said in sastra that it is better to go out and find salvation for others than to find salvation for yourself.
Prabhupada: One who seeks salvation for others, he's already salvation.
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, how he can arrange salvation for others? So he hasn't got to seek for salvation.
Dr. Sharma: How these devotees are finding salvation for others?
Prabhupada: That means they are already in the platform of salvation.
Dr. Sharma: Through them, you are working for the salvation of others.
Prabhupada: Janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. That is the injunction, that first of all you become perfect, then try to make others perfect. So anyone is actually trying to do perfection for others, he is already perfect.
Dr. Sharma: The devotees are working for the salvation for everyone.
Prabhupada: He's already perfect. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. The one who's trying for others' salvation... That is a devotee's business. Ordinary man cannot do it. Because he's doing that, it is to be understood that he's already on the platform of... Because salvation means to remain his own position. Muktir hitvanyatha-rupam svarupena vyavasthitih [SB 2.10.6]. Svarupa is to serve God. So if one is serving on behalf of God, then he's in svarupa, mukti. Others are acting for his own benefit, but a devotee is acting for others' benefit. Therefore he's already on the platform of liberation.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, should I have resigned my membership with the Christian organization? Should I have? I did. Could I serve Krsna just as well and also through a Christian? I don't see how I could.
Prabhupada: No, we don't say like that. (laughs) Christian, actually one who is Christian, he's as good as Vaisnava. A Christian means he recognizes God is great. So we also accept God is great. Where is the difference? God is great in all circumstances. So if anyone accepts God is great, that is perfect.
Guest (2): That's what the church board said to me. They said, "You believe in Krsna, we believe in God. Why do you go? What's superior?" I feel that your knowledge is superior.
Prabhupada: The thing is that sometimes we Indians come to Western country for better education. The university in India or the university in U.S. or in Europe is the same, but why does he go after Indian university education to foreign university? Why does he go?
Guest (2): Superior.
Prabhupada: That's it. God is there, the dictionary is there. Sometimes pocket dictionary, sometimes big national encyclopedia dictionary. The Christians, they have no idea what is God. They believe in God, but if you ask them what is God, who is God, they cannot say. But we can say. That is the difference.
Woman guest (2): It is not as good.
Prabhupada: So if you want more knowledge about God, then you must come to Krsna.
Guest (2): That's how I believe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Woman guest (2): Is it not as good to serve God as a Christian in a church?
Prabhupada: That is have already explained, that you serve God in any position, but if you want to know about God more, then you have to come here. Now ask any Christian what is God, who is God, what is His form, what He is doing. Can he answer? Nobody can answer. He knows God is great. How great He is, who is that God, they cannot answer. To some extent it is all right, but if you want to know full extent, then you have come to Krsna consciousness. "Two plus two is equal to four" is mathematics, but if you want to know higher mathematics, you have to go some higher college. "Two plus two" is also mathematics, is it not? Everyone knows two plus two equal to four. So when you go to higher university, that "two plus two" does not change, but you know more about it. Because one has gone to higher university, the previous education, "two plus two," has changed, it is not that. But as a Christian you understand God is great, "two plus two," but how He is great, that you have to learn in the Vedas. That is real education. Because you do not know how He is great, therefore you do so many sinful activities. Otherwise, how it is possible to maintain slaughterhouse? Christian doctrine says "Thou shall not kill." But he does not understand; therefore his business has become to kill only. This is the defect. Why you are disobeying the orders of Christ, "Thou shall not kill"? Because you do not understand him properly.
Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, when we don't eat meat in the...
Prabhupada: No, I mean to say...
Guest (2): We didn't know why we didn't. But now I know why, because the animal is a living entity.
Prabhupada: No, God says "Everyone is My son."
Vipina: In the Bible, they don't accept that the animals and certain living entities are eternal, are going to go back to God.
Prabhupada: They may believe, but that is another thing. You may believe something blindly. Come to philosophy, come to science. Because you believe something, it is a fact -- that is not...
Vipina: But they base that belief on their scripture.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Vipina: The Bible.
Prabhupada: No, what is that belief?
Vipina: Can you explain it? That there are certain people, they'll be resurrected from the dead at the time of the coming of the Lord and others will not, or something?
Guest (2): Well, from my knowledge, I never knew that anyone but the human being would be resurrected. Now that's a point where the animal will be resurrected. I didn't know that.
Prabhupada: So what is that?
Hari-sauri: They think that transmigration only applies to human beings. Or in fact they don't even accept transmigration. They think that you've just got one lifetime.
Prabhupada: Why? Transmigration for everyone. The Darwin's theory, evolution, it is like that, transmigration. The living soul is changing bodies, that's a fact. We can experience in our own life. The child is changing body to boyhood. The boy is changing his body to youthhood. So therefore it's a fact. The living entity is there within the body, and the body is changed. This simple truth they cannot understand. When a child grows up to become a boy, so what is the change? The change is body. But everyone knows the same child has become boy. Is it not? What do you think?
Guest (2): Well, when you leave this planet you go to sleep.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is another thing. Studying, that a child is grown to become a boy, he has changed his body. Does it mean the living entity who was in the child's body is different from the living entity within the boy?
Guest (2): No difference.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is a fact that the living entity is eternal and the body is changed. So where is the difficulty to understand this?
Vipina: They can understand it, but their scripture doesn't accept reincarnation.
Prabhupada: Therefore you should give up your philosophy and science. That "Because my scripture does not allow me to become educated, I shall remain a fool." (laughter) What is this?
Guest (2): A beautiful example is where a caterpillar will be, a cocoon will form over a caterpillar, and when the cocoon breaks, it's a butterfly.
Prabhupada: That's all right, transmigration.
Guest (2): The living entity changed bodies.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is common sense. If they cannot understand this commonsense affair, then how they are educated?
Dr. Sharma: Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22].
Prabhupada: Yes. Common sense. And we are practically experiencing. When the child has grown to become a young man, the mother does not cry, "Oh, my child is gone." She knows, she knows that "Here is my child. Simply he has changed his body." So this is a fact, that we are changing bodies but we are eternal. This is the conclusion. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. So unless one is properly educated, where is the talk of advancing? So this is the beginning of spiritual education, to understand that the living entity is eternal and the body is changing. And then next question will be that if the body is changing, then this body will be changed, so after my death what kind of body I am going to accept? That is education. That is education. And if I remain blind, I do not care, and next life I become a dog, then what is the value of my present education? In spite of all education, next life I am going to become a dog or tree, then what is the value of my education? That education is not. Throughout the whole world perhaps we are giving this education. Throughout the whole world, find out any institution or university where this education is given. No. Simply big, big talks. And you talk something nonsense and take laureate, Nobel Laureate. That's all. It is going on. Somebody is talking nonsense that life is produced from matter, from chemicals, and if we challenge, "All right, combine some matter in egg form and bring life," that rascal will say, "No, it will take millions of years." And if the bird is giving life in five days, why you are taking doctorate title? Give the chicken doctorate title. The rascals are simply bluffing the people. This is going on in the name of education. Can anyone produce life by a combination of chemicals? And these rascals are advertising. We challenge, "All right, not very big thing. Egg, you can see there is some white substance and yellow substance, and you are very big scientist, you find out what are the chemicals and combine it and put it under legs of the chicken or in the incubator and bring life. Otherwise, why you are talking nonsense and cheating people?" Not only cheating people, people are becoming godless. Everything is science. And the science is this, cheating, that life can be produced by chemicals.
Dr. Sharma: The problem is the definition of life. It has not yet been defined, and the definition of life accepted by them is not the real definition of life.
Prabhupada: The definition of life they have given, resistance. If you want to come to kill me, I resist you. That is life. Everyone knows it.
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada, it's a quarter to nine.
Prabhupada: That is life. If I want to cut this table it will not resist. But if you want to kill me, I'll resist. That is life. Where is the difficulty?
Dr. Sharma: No, the way we understand, there is no difficulty. The way scientists understand there is a lot of difficulty.
Prabhupada: What is that scientist? What is their definition? What do they say?
Pusta Krsna: Svarupa Damodara?
Svarupa Damodara: Life is a..., they say the question "What is life?" you should not inquire. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Oh, that is... You keep yourself in darkness. You remain fool. That is scientific. So long you remain a rascal, it is scientific. This is their...
Svarupa Damodara: They say it is unscientific question.
Prabhupada: And because they cannot answer you, boba satru naya. In Bengali, if one is dumb, he has no enemy, but he cannot speak anything. Tavac sobhate murkha yavat kincin na bhasate murkha (?)(Bengali) So murkha, you remain murkha, then that is scientific.
Dr. Sharma: Kapila has said (Sanskrit).
Prabhupada: So don't ask for life, that is scientific. Do you think it is all right?
Dr. Sharma: No, as a scientist, I don't believe that.
Prabhupada: Then this is going on. They cannot do anything, and still they are drawing high salary. Especially when they say that life is made of chemicals and they cannot experimentally prove it. How bluffing it is. We say a simple thing, that "Don't talk of big, big life. You just produce from the egg, because egg you require so many chicken to cut their throat. So produce it from chemicals." Why do they not do it? Is anyone to answer this? If life is chemical combination, you see in the egg there is some white substance, some yellow substance, so you analyze and find out what are the chemicals and combine it and color it yellow and pack up in a cellulose cover, and then put it, bring life. Why they cannot do it? Where is the science? Simply talking big, big words? What do you think? Am I right or wrong?
Mr. Boyd: What do I think? Well, it's very difficult at this particular time. It hasn't been done yet; it's been claimed, as you say. Yet we as individuals request them to do that, for some reason.
Prabhupada: Yes, unless they do that, what is the use? What is the use of your big, big talking?
Vipina: He's thinking that sometime they'll do it in the future.
Prabhupada: Therefore he should not become scientist. The chicken is doing it within five days. (laughter) You transfer your doctorate, laureate to the chicken. You are cheating others. Give the title to the chicken.
Guest (2): If and when Krsna wants the scientists to come up with the answer, then is when, only when they'll have the answer.
Prabhupada: But Krsna has already given to the chicken. (laughter) He's so unfortunate that Krsna is not giving him the intelligence. He's so unfortunate. But the fortunate chicken has already got the intelligence. So at least the chicken is fortunate than these so-called scientists. That is our conclusion. He's so unfortunate that he doesn't get the fortune of the chicken. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. He's a mudha, rascal. That's all. He's claiming something which is impossible. That is mudha. If somebody, if a child, sometimes childish nature, "Mother, give me that moon." It is possible mother can give the moon to the child? So mother cheats him. She gives him a mirror, "You see, here is a mirror, moon here." That's all. But is that moon? So a child may be satisfied with this class of moon, but one who is sane man, his father will not be satisfied. It is impossible. We give this challenge to any scientist, that "You are unnecessarily, uselessly working to produce life from chemicals." That is our challenge. "You cannot do it." (Hindi) So we challenge the so-called scientists that "You rascal, you cannot do it." It is not possible. [break]
Mr. Boyd: ...this is ninety-six cents, so why put it back?
Prabhupada: That's all right, this is one way of studying, but when you have studied the chemicals, combine them and bring a human life. Science means observation and experiment. Simply observing, analyzing that it is a combination of chemi..., that is not perfect science. When you... This is theory. When you practically bring into action, that is called practical... What is called?
Svarupa Damodara: Experimentation?
Prabhupada: No, no, in science there are two con..., theoretical and practical. So theoretical knowledge is no perfect. When you bring it in practical action, then it is science. In the scientific laboratory, they do not simply theorize; they test it in the laboratory. That is science. If you cannot test it by combination of the chemicals which you have analyzed in your..., then it is failure, is it not?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: Here is a scientist. You have not studied properly. That is defect. So why defective knowledge you are declaring as knowledge? That is cheating. When you have perfect knowledge, then you declare. That is science.
Mr. Boyd: Then you advocate that Krsna consciousness should be practiced in every action that you take.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is practice. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8].
Svarupa Damodara: Scientists at the present time, they say like this because their knowledge is simply illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Real knowledge is covered.
Prabhupada: Just like this planetary system. So many planets are there. They do not know anything. And they are going to the Mars. They are going to the moon. All bluff. Two things unsolved. They do not know what is life and they do not know what are these planetary system. And still, they are speaking on these two subjects as authority. That is bluff.
Svarupa Damodara: So we conclude that without understanding the existence of God, these two problems can never be answered.
Prabhupada: Never be. You hear from God; then you have got perfect knowledge. And if you want to become scientist more than God, then you'll never know it. But their real propaganda is "There is no God." That is their real propaganda.
Svarupa Damodara: That is the root cause of this illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes. They want to prove "There is no God. Everything is science." However rascaldom it may be, "It is everything." But we are preaching about God. How we can tolerate? We must expose them. That is our business.
Mr. Boyd: There's a saying that's printed on a piece of stationery I get from one of my supply houses of a particular piece of equipment this man designs and sells. And on the bottom he indicates, "Somebody has to lead."
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is a commonsense philosophy, that the earth is there, everything is coming out of earth. As mother is giving birth to so many children, similarly the earth is giving birth to so many children. So the children are there, the mother is there, and where is the father? But these rascals, they say "Without father." Is it possible for the mother to give children without father?
Mr. Boyd: Not legally. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Legally or illegally, there must be some father.
Mr. Boyd: I realize that.
Prabhupada: Illegally or legally, without connection with the father there is no question of children.
Mr. Boyd: But even this is being done artificially nowadays.
Prabhupada: But artificially means that you accept the principle. So therefore we say that here is mother, land, and here is children, the plants, trees, birds, beasts, human beings. They are all coming from the earth. So mother is there, and the children are there. Then where is the father? You cannot say, "No, without father it has come." That is not possible. Then you are talking foolish. There must be father. This is conclusion. So how you can deny God? God is accepted in every religion as the supreme father or something like that, great. And God is there. But they say "Automatically coming" and big, big words. How do they explain? How things are coming from the earth, so many plants?
Svarupa Damodara: It is by chance.
Prabhupada: "By chance," just see. Is that explanation? Hmm? If one head is bald-headed, why by chance it does not come again, hair? And these plants and creepers are coming by chance, just see. We have to accept this explanation? (aside:) You sit down. That is for the outsider. So this is explanation by the scientist, "By chance." Just see. How fools they are.
Svarupa Damodara: Chance is their instrument of explanation.
Prabhupada: Just see how they are befooling persons. The law is cause and effect. Nothing is chance. There is cause, and there is effect. It is saying the same thing, that "This girl has produced a child by chance." It is not possible. Any sane man knows that she had connection with man, either legally or illegally. It is not chance. So there can... Nothing can happen as chance. That is imperfect knowledge. Wash out. But we know,
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
a nadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]
There is no question of chance. There is cause. So all right, thank you very much. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Evening Darsana -- July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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