June 13, 1974
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Prabhupada: He is the director of
Indology in Moscow.Church Representative: I see.
Prabhupada: So my talk with was published in some...
Church Representative: Yes, I have this book in my office in Paris.
Prabhupada: But he does not believe in incarnation and he still, he is professor of Indology. (French)
Karandhara: He doesn't believe in the soul. Professor Kotovsky, he doesn't believe in the existence of soul.
Church Representative: But I think that he is a Marxist.
Karandhara: Yes. Or at least he has to appear as one to maintain his position. Prabhupada's point is that...
Church Representative: There are many professor in Russia of religion, on the history of religion, but who don't believe in nothing.
Karandhara: That was Prabhupada's point that it's ironic that in modern societies men are called professors, or being proficient in knowledge, but yet they're ignorant of the soul, which is the most basic knowledge, the most fundamental knowledge. According to the Vedic system, Indian system, even a most ignorant man knows about the soul, what to speak of the great learned sages. But in this society, western society, the so-called learned men -- they're supposed to be the topmost learned men -- they don't even know of the soul. Therefore they're not even in the class of an ignorant man. They're lower than even ignorance.
Prabhupada: And according to Vedic understanding, one who does not understand what is soul -- he identifies himself with this body -- he is animal.
Church Representative: This is also a fundamental idea of Christian spiritual. (French)
Prabhupada: So in the Vedic language, one who has taken this body as self, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13], and sva-dhih kalatradisu, and own men, the family, society, community, national, not outside that, sva-dhih, "They are my own men." sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih, and the land of birth worshipable, nationalism, yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicit, and holy place, to take bath in the water of Jordan or Ganges, such persons are considered as go-kharah. Go means cow, kharah means ass. That means animals. What is your conception of the soul? Do you believe in the soul? (French)
Yogesvara: He understands English.
Church Representative: I understand. My conception of soul?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Church Representative: Could you (sic:) precise your question, because what do you mean by this...
Prabhupada: Soul...
Church Representative: Yes, I know... I cannot say that I know what is soul. I know that there are souls, that I have a soul. But I think that it's very difficult to give adequate... (French)
Yogesvara: He says he knows that he has a soul, but he thinks it would be hard to give an accurate definition of the soul.
Prabhupada: But if he knows what is soul, where is the difficulty to give definition? (French)
Yogesvara: (translating) So he says he can accept that he has a soul...
Church Representative: Certainly, I accept.
Yogesvara: But it would be hard to describe, he thinks, the nature of the soul. The body, which is something tangible, we can describe. But something of a spiritual nature like the soul must be much more difficult to describe.
Prabhupada: You can describe it by the negative way, that soul is not body. (French)
Yogesvara: (translating) Then we are still left with the problem: what is the relationship between the two?
Prabhupada: First of all let us understand what is the soul. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: na jayate na mriyate va kadacit, nityah sasvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Adahyo 'yam asosyo 'yam akledyo 'yam. Read those paragraphs.
Pusta-krsna:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]
Prabhupada: Translation.
Pusta-krsna: "Translation: For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (French)
Prabhupada: Next verse.
Pusta-krsna:
vedavinasinam nityam
ya enam ajam avyayam
katham sa purusah partha
kam ghatayati hanti kam
"O Partha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, unborn, eternal and immutable, kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (French)
Church Representative: I have nothing to say against. But I cannot say that it is a definition. Do you say in English, definition?
Prabhupada: Yes, definition.
Church Representative: I cannot say that it is a definition. It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith.
Prabhupada: No, it is characteristic. Definition means you mention the characteristic. That is definition. Definition, you mention the characteristic. So that can be mentioned directly, or if it is not perceivable, then you can define in opposite way. Just like we have got experience: everything in the material world, it is beginning. There is a beginning. Anything of this -- your body, my body, everything -- it has got a beginning, and it has got an end. So it is stated, na jayate na mriyate va: "It has no beginning, no end." And nityah, eternal, sasvatah, very old, puranah. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "It is not destroyed, annihilated, after the destruction of the body." So if we accept this definition, then we can understand the soul is eternal. Our characteristic, if we accept these characteristics, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20], after the destruction of body the soul is never destroyed, then you can understand the soul is eternal. And it is clearly stated, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "After the destruction of the body, it is not destroyed." So, it means it takes another body. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that's not necessarily the logical conclusion. He says he's familiar with that theory, but it's more a question of faith. He says it's not actually a logical conclusion that if the soul leaves this body it must take another one. (French)
Prabhupada: What does he mean by logic?
Yogesvara: He says that means that it's not something that's very evident to me.
Prabhupada: It may not be evident to him, but why not others? (French)
Yogesvara: He says one thing is that he feels kind of glad that it's more or less a question of opinion because if it was Absolute Truth, then it would be too restricting for everyone.
Prabhupada: No, it is Absolute Truth. But there are different ways of understanding Absolute Truth. He is taking only one way, direct perception. (French)
Yogesvara: He said, if it were an absolute truth, it would be evident to everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. But everyone is not advanced in knowledge. (French)
Yogesvara: He says the question remains because there are other, very spiritually advanced men who don't accept that idea.
Prabhupada: No, somebody may be known as spiritually advanced according to the society, but he may not be. So another thing is that what is the way of understanding the Absolute Truth. Let him explain. What is the standard way of understanding Absolute Truth? (French)
Yogesvara: He says he doesn't have an answer in that kind of a context.
Church Representative: No context, problematic.
Prabhupada: It may be problematic to some, but Absolute Truth can be understood by sruti, authoritative hearing.
Karandhara: When the Absolute reveals Himself, then... Sruti means the absolute knowledge from the Absolute, from God.
Prabhupada: Yes, the Absolute Truth is known by the absolute method which is called sruti, hearing from the Absolute. Absolute cannot be imagined or speculated. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that is a fundamental point.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore we accept Absolute Truth from the Absolute.
Karandhara: And according to the Vedic system, in different times and different places, according to the mentality and the culture of the people, the Absolute has made Himself known on different levels, higher and lower levels. But that... The Absolute as revealed through the Vedas, specifically the Bhagavad-gita, is the most advanced level. It is the standard by which all other levels are judged. It is the most advanced, complete knowledge.
Church Representative: Yes, I know this. I know. I know this.
Karandhara: But it's not just an opinion. It's not just a secular idea. By scientific principle, if we consider the logic of all the propositions of Bhagavad-gita in relation to the Bible and Koran, if we're actually impartial and open, then we'll understand that truth. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of superior logic, extending the same basic truths to their highest perfection. So in discussing the merits of Bhagavad-gita versus another scripture, it's not that we're trying to argue just for the sake of polemics but to establish the real standard, what is the most elevated or advanced standard of the knowledge.
Bhagavan: But people are suffering due to lack of that accurate knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: And our Krsna consciousness movement is trying to make that knowledge available in practical activity to stop this suffering. It is not just a philosophy without practice. That is the reason why it is important for discussing, not just for the sake of discussing but for the sake of bringing out the highest principles for action.
Prabhupada: So according to Vedic way, Krsna is the Absolute Truth. Krsna is Absolute Truth, accepted by the acaryas. Indian civilization is carried on the advice of the acarya-sampradaya. So all the acaryas like Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, they all accept Krsna as the Absolute Truth. So when we hear from Krsna then we get absolute knowledge.
Karandhara: The reason why we gather like this to discuss these principles is that just like a group of scholars will gather to refine and crystallize their knowledge.
Guest: (French)
Yogesvara: He must excuse himself, he has a prior engagement.
Guest: I thank you so much for your... I must go now.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (some people leave)
Karandhara: I'd just like to finish the one point I was making, that the reason we gather like this and we desire to discuss with other personalities, other people with different views of religion, is for the sake of the edification of everyone, so that the highest principles can be isolated and so we can advance the purpose of religiosity. It's not simply for the sake of argument that we pose questions. But it's for the sake of the edification or the crystallization of the highest principles of religion.
Church Representative: I absolutely agree on this point, certainly. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he's familiar with this principle. He says he knows of it, but he doesn't consider himself to be an expert.
Pusta-krsna: But because you are part of God, you have real interest in this. Everyone.
Church Representative: Certainly. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he's willing to admit this philosophy even though he doesn't belong to it himself. He sees this as being...
Paramahamsa: He appreciates the fact that it has a coherent aspect, that it holds together logically. And this is what he appreciates.
Yogesvara: He respects the Vaisnava philosophy because it is substantial. It doesn't contradict itself.
Karandhara: So then the... If the Vaisnava philosophy has a systematic logic, then integrity would dictate that we have to surrender or accept that logic. If a logic is true, we can't stand apart from it and simply observe it. We have to accept it ourselves.
Church Representative: (French)
Bhagavan: You are right on the brink of Absolute Truth. Don't run away. (laughs)
Yogesvara: He says that even though he has a great interest in this discussion, because he has prior commitments, he's unable to stay.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all...
Bhagavan: Take some prasadam. (French)
Yogesvara: He already has the books.
Prabhupada: He has our...? He has got...? (French) That's all right. He has got.
Church Representative: I have, and I have read with great interest. Thank you very much. (French) I was thinking that it was only a formal visit.
Bhagavan: Tomorrow night we have very nice conference in Salle Pleyal.
Church Representative: I have seen in many places. I have seen you.
Bhagavan: So you're welcome to come.
Church Representative: Thank you. (leaves)
Karandhara: This man was... What is his position?
Bhagavan: He's the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Karandhara: He's the head of the church but he cannot... He feels he's not qualified to discuss spiritual matters.
Bhagavan: Once last year a man in London, a professor in a religious school, said the same thing, and you said that according to our Vedic philosophy, if a teacher doesn't know something, he should step down. And His answer was, "I can't do that." (Prabhupada chuckles)
Paramahamsa: It seems amazing that such fundamental questions, they remain mute, such people like this, who are supposed to be qualified to bring other people out of their distress.
Karandhara: That's why the church now has lost everyone, because even its leaders are saying, "I don't know anything. I'm just fumbling around like everyone else. I don't really know anything definite."
Prabhupada: Still, he is leader?
Karandhara: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: The impersonalists, Lord Caitanya said that they are the greatest offenders to Lord Krsna. So most of the so-called religious people of the world today, if they have a conception of God, it is that God is impersonal spirit. Does that mean they are to be classified, at least in terms of this understanding, amongst the demons and asuras?
Karandhara: No, in this instance this man is... It's not as much that he's an impersonalist as that he has no clear idea one way or the other. He's ignorant. An impersonalist is someone in the classic sense who has... He's aware of the Vaisnava philosophy, but he rejects that, that God is definitely not a person, and he takes that as being a lower conception.
Bhagavan: In ignorance, though, even though he's in ignorance, he is hurting people due to his ignorance by... He's claiming to be a teacher, and even though he may be innocent or ignorant, because he's in that position of leader, he's actually hurting people, wasting their life.
French Devotee: He left, Srila Prabhupada, because he was very afraid that we were right.
Bhagavan: He said he had another engagement.
Paramahamsa: In the world today it seems as if, just like men take advantage of women and make them topless and bottomless, also they try and encourage people like this to be leaders of religion. That way the mass of people don't take any real interest. They do this in Russia too. They kill the sincere religious leaders, and they put their own men as religious leader, and it just sort of undermines the whole purity and the importance in the instruction, and then no one repeats it.
Karandhara: In the West also, in the past ten years there's been a resurgence of what's called fundamentalism. For so long the Christian liturgy, the Christian doctrine, got so hodge-podge and so wishy-washy that people were leaving because there was simply nothing there solid for them to grasp onto. Now fundamentalism, or the very basic principles that God is the Almighty and that we are sinners and if we don't repent, God's going to strike us down with wrath and anger, that basic principle of fear of God, that is receiving new support. Many people are coming back to that because even though it's a very vague thing, still it's something definite. "God is there, and if I do something wrong, He's going to cut me down," rather than, "Well, nothing's wrong, nothing's right," it's all hodge-podge, wish wash. People can't grasp onto that. There's nothing for them to...
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada, "nothing wrong, nothing right. Everything is all right," Vivekananda's philosophy.
Bhagavan: Srila Prabhupada, I think we'll leave around 7:30, so perhaps you can take a little rest before the engagement.
Prabhupada: Hm. (end)
Prabhupada: So my talk with was published in some...
Church Representative: Yes, I have this book in my office in Paris.
Prabhupada: But he does not believe in incarnation and he still, he is professor of Indology. (French)
Karandhara: He doesn't believe in the soul. Professor Kotovsky, he doesn't believe in the existence of soul.
Church Representative: But I think that he is a Marxist.
Karandhara: Yes. Or at least he has to appear as one to maintain his position. Prabhupada's point is that...
Church Representative: There are many professor in Russia of religion, on the history of religion, but who don't believe in nothing.
Karandhara: That was Prabhupada's point that it's ironic that in modern societies men are called professors, or being proficient in knowledge, but yet they're ignorant of the soul, which is the most basic knowledge, the most fundamental knowledge. According to the Vedic system, Indian system, even a most ignorant man knows about the soul, what to speak of the great learned sages. But in this society, western society, the so-called learned men -- they're supposed to be the topmost learned men -- they don't even know of the soul. Therefore they're not even in the class of an ignorant man. They're lower than even ignorance.
Prabhupada: And according to Vedic understanding, one who does not understand what is soul -- he identifies himself with this body -- he is animal.
Church Representative: This is also a fundamental idea of Christian spiritual. (French)
Prabhupada: So in the Vedic language, one who has taken this body as self, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13], and sva-dhih kalatradisu, and own men, the family, society, community, national, not outside that, sva-dhih, "They are my own men." sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih, and the land of birth worshipable, nationalism, yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicit, and holy place, to take bath in the water of Jordan or Ganges, such persons are considered as go-kharah. Go means cow, kharah means ass. That means animals. What is your conception of the soul? Do you believe in the soul? (French)
Yogesvara: He understands English.
Church Representative: I understand. My conception of soul?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Church Representative: Could you (sic:) precise your question, because what do you mean by this...
Prabhupada: Soul...
Church Representative: Yes, I know... I cannot say that I know what is soul. I know that there are souls, that I have a soul. But I think that it's very difficult to give adequate... (French)
Yogesvara: He says he knows that he has a soul, but he thinks it would be hard to give an accurate definition of the soul.
Prabhupada: But if he knows what is soul, where is the difficulty to give definition? (French)
Yogesvara: (translating) So he says he can accept that he has a soul...
Church Representative: Certainly, I accept.
Yogesvara: But it would be hard to describe, he thinks, the nature of the soul. The body, which is something tangible, we can describe. But something of a spiritual nature like the soul must be much more difficult to describe.
Prabhupada: You can describe it by the negative way, that soul is not body. (French)
Yogesvara: (translating) Then we are still left with the problem: what is the relationship between the two?
Prabhupada: First of all let us understand what is the soul. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: na jayate na mriyate va kadacit, nityah sasvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Adahyo 'yam asosyo 'yam akledyo 'yam. Read those paragraphs.
Pusta-krsna:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]
Prabhupada: Translation.
Pusta-krsna: "Translation: For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (French)
Prabhupada: Next verse.
Pusta-krsna:
vedavinasinam nityam
ya enam ajam avyayam
katham sa purusah partha
kam ghatayati hanti kam
"O Partha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, unborn, eternal and immutable, kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?" (French)
Church Representative: I have nothing to say against. But I cannot say that it is a definition. Do you say in English, definition?
Prabhupada: Yes, definition.
Church Representative: I cannot say that it is a definition. It is a sort of creed, a profession of faith.
Prabhupada: No, it is characteristic. Definition means you mention the characteristic. That is definition. Definition, you mention the characteristic. So that can be mentioned directly, or if it is not perceivable, then you can define in opposite way. Just like we have got experience: everything in the material world, it is beginning. There is a beginning. Anything of this -- your body, my body, everything -- it has got a beginning, and it has got an end. So it is stated, na jayate na mriyate va: "It has no beginning, no end." And nityah, eternal, sasvatah, very old, puranah. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "It is not destroyed, annihilated, after the destruction of the body." So if we accept this definition, then we can understand the soul is eternal. Our characteristic, if we accept these characteristics, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20], after the destruction of body the soul is never destroyed, then you can understand the soul is eternal. And it is clearly stated, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. "After the destruction of the body, it is not destroyed." So, it means it takes another body. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that's not necessarily the logical conclusion. He says he's familiar with that theory, but it's more a question of faith. He says it's not actually a logical conclusion that if the soul leaves this body it must take another one. (French)
Prabhupada: What does he mean by logic?
Yogesvara: He says that means that it's not something that's very evident to me.
Prabhupada: It may not be evident to him, but why not others? (French)
Yogesvara: He says one thing is that he feels kind of glad that it's more or less a question of opinion because if it was Absolute Truth, then it would be too restricting for everyone.
Prabhupada: No, it is Absolute Truth. But there are different ways of understanding Absolute Truth. He is taking only one way, direct perception. (French)
Yogesvara: He said, if it were an absolute truth, it would be evident to everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. But everyone is not advanced in knowledge. (French)
Yogesvara: He says the question remains because there are other, very spiritually advanced men who don't accept that idea.
Prabhupada: No, somebody may be known as spiritually advanced according to the society, but he may not be. So another thing is that what is the way of understanding the Absolute Truth. Let him explain. What is the standard way of understanding Absolute Truth? (French)
Yogesvara: He says he doesn't have an answer in that kind of a context.
Church Representative: No context, problematic.
Prabhupada: It may be problematic to some, but Absolute Truth can be understood by sruti, authoritative hearing.
Karandhara: When the Absolute reveals Himself, then... Sruti means the absolute knowledge from the Absolute, from God.
Prabhupada: Yes, the Absolute Truth is known by the absolute method which is called sruti, hearing from the Absolute. Absolute cannot be imagined or speculated. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that is a fundamental point.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore we accept Absolute Truth from the Absolute.
Karandhara: And according to the Vedic system, in different times and different places, according to the mentality and the culture of the people, the Absolute has made Himself known on different levels, higher and lower levels. But that... The Absolute as revealed through the Vedas, specifically the Bhagavad-gita, is the most advanced level. It is the standard by which all other levels are judged. It is the most advanced, complete knowledge.
Church Representative: Yes, I know this. I know. I know this.
Karandhara: But it's not just an opinion. It's not just a secular idea. By scientific principle, if we consider the logic of all the propositions of Bhagavad-gita in relation to the Bible and Koran, if we're actually impartial and open, then we'll understand that truth. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of superior logic, extending the same basic truths to their highest perfection. So in discussing the merits of Bhagavad-gita versus another scripture, it's not that we're trying to argue just for the sake of polemics but to establish the real standard, what is the most elevated or advanced standard of the knowledge.
Bhagavan: But people are suffering due to lack of that accurate knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: And our Krsna consciousness movement is trying to make that knowledge available in practical activity to stop this suffering. It is not just a philosophy without practice. That is the reason why it is important for discussing, not just for the sake of discussing but for the sake of bringing out the highest principles for action.
Prabhupada: So according to Vedic way, Krsna is the Absolute Truth. Krsna is Absolute Truth, accepted by the acaryas. Indian civilization is carried on the advice of the acarya-sampradaya. So all the acaryas like Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, they all accept Krsna as the Absolute Truth. So when we hear from Krsna then we get absolute knowledge.
Karandhara: The reason why we gather like this to discuss these principles is that just like a group of scholars will gather to refine and crystallize their knowledge.
Guest: (French)
Yogesvara: He must excuse himself, he has a prior engagement.
Guest: I thank you so much for your... I must go now.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (some people leave)
Karandhara: I'd just like to finish the one point I was making, that the reason we gather like this and we desire to discuss with other personalities, other people with different views of religion, is for the sake of the edification of everyone, so that the highest principles can be isolated and so we can advance the purpose of religiosity. It's not simply for the sake of argument that we pose questions. But it's for the sake of the edification or the crystallization of the highest principles of religion.
Church Representative: I absolutely agree on this point, certainly. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he's familiar with this principle. He says he knows of it, but he doesn't consider himself to be an expert.
Pusta-krsna: But because you are part of God, you have real interest in this. Everyone.
Church Representative: Certainly. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he's willing to admit this philosophy even though he doesn't belong to it himself. He sees this as being...
Paramahamsa: He appreciates the fact that it has a coherent aspect, that it holds together logically. And this is what he appreciates.
Yogesvara: He respects the Vaisnava philosophy because it is substantial. It doesn't contradict itself.
Karandhara: So then the... If the Vaisnava philosophy has a systematic logic, then integrity would dictate that we have to surrender or accept that logic. If a logic is true, we can't stand apart from it and simply observe it. We have to accept it ourselves.
Church Representative: (French)
Bhagavan: You are right on the brink of Absolute Truth. Don't run away. (laughs)
Yogesvara: He says that even though he has a great interest in this discussion, because he has prior commitments, he's unable to stay.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all...
Bhagavan: Take some prasadam. (French)
Yogesvara: He already has the books.
Prabhupada: He has our...? He has got...? (French) That's all right. He has got.
Church Representative: I have, and I have read with great interest. Thank you very much. (French) I was thinking that it was only a formal visit.
Bhagavan: Tomorrow night we have very nice conference in Salle Pleyal.
Church Representative: I have seen in many places. I have seen you.
Bhagavan: So you're welcome to come.
Church Representative: Thank you. (leaves)
Karandhara: This man was... What is his position?
Bhagavan: He's the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Karandhara: He's the head of the church but he cannot... He feels he's not qualified to discuss spiritual matters.
Bhagavan: Once last year a man in London, a professor in a religious school, said the same thing, and you said that according to our Vedic philosophy, if a teacher doesn't know something, he should step down. And His answer was, "I can't do that." (Prabhupada chuckles)
Paramahamsa: It seems amazing that such fundamental questions, they remain mute, such people like this, who are supposed to be qualified to bring other people out of their distress.
Karandhara: That's why the church now has lost everyone, because even its leaders are saying, "I don't know anything. I'm just fumbling around like everyone else. I don't really know anything definite."
Prabhupada: Still, he is leader?
Karandhara: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: The impersonalists, Lord Caitanya said that they are the greatest offenders to Lord Krsna. So most of the so-called religious people of the world today, if they have a conception of God, it is that God is impersonal spirit. Does that mean they are to be classified, at least in terms of this understanding, amongst the demons and asuras?
Karandhara: No, in this instance this man is... It's not as much that he's an impersonalist as that he has no clear idea one way or the other. He's ignorant. An impersonalist is someone in the classic sense who has... He's aware of the Vaisnava philosophy, but he rejects that, that God is definitely not a person, and he takes that as being a lower conception.
Bhagavan: In ignorance, though, even though he's in ignorance, he is hurting people due to his ignorance by... He's claiming to be a teacher, and even though he may be innocent or ignorant, because he's in that position of leader, he's actually hurting people, wasting their life.
French Devotee: He left, Srila Prabhupada, because he was very afraid that we were right.
Bhagavan: He said he had another engagement.
Paramahamsa: In the world today it seems as if, just like men take advantage of women and make them topless and bottomless, also they try and encourage people like this to be leaders of religion. That way the mass of people don't take any real interest. They do this in Russia too. They kill the sincere religious leaders, and they put their own men as religious leader, and it just sort of undermines the whole purity and the importance in the instruction, and then no one repeats it.
Karandhara: In the West also, in the past ten years there's been a resurgence of what's called fundamentalism. For so long the Christian liturgy, the Christian doctrine, got so hodge-podge and so wishy-washy that people were leaving because there was simply nothing there solid for them to grasp onto. Now fundamentalism, or the very basic principles that God is the Almighty and that we are sinners and if we don't repent, God's going to strike us down with wrath and anger, that basic principle of fear of God, that is receiving new support. Many people are coming back to that because even though it's a very vague thing, still it's something definite. "God is there, and if I do something wrong, He's going to cut me down," rather than, "Well, nothing's wrong, nothing's right," it's all hodge-podge, wish wash. People can't grasp onto that. There's nothing for them to...
Prabhupada: That is Mayavada, "nothing wrong, nothing right. Everything is all right," Vivekananda's philosophy.
Bhagavan: Srila Prabhupada, I think we'll leave around 7:30, so perhaps you can take a little rest before the engagement.
Prabhupada: Hm. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Russian Orthodox Church Representative -- June 13, 1974,
Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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