Yogesvara: Monsieur Mesman is the
chief of the law-house of Paris.Prabhupada: Law-house means legislative
assembly? No.
Yogesvara: It is part of the National Assembly?
M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National... Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like we have in our country, "Legislative Assembly".
Yogesvara: (French)
M. Mesman: (French)
Yogesvara: Yes, like that. (French)
Prabhupada: But they're not necessarily lawyers.
M. Mesman: (French)
Prabhupada: We are also lawyer. Not in the material sense. But we know what is the law of God. (French)
Yogesvara: He asks, "What are our activities in France?"
Prabhupada: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks what are we doing for that?
Nitai: What ways are we doing that?
Prthu-putra: In which way, what way, how?
Prabhupada: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. (French)
Prthu-putra: This gentleman asks if the disciples have to give up their religion, if, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee.
Prabhupada: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand, not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have temple in France or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it?
Prabhupada: Anyway. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is... You show Bhagavad-gita. And all other books also show him. (French)
Yogesvara: He says, unfortunately, he doesn't read English.
Prabhupada: Here is French. French language. (French)
Bhagavan: We have practical political philosophy.
Yogesvara: He asks what are our political principles in Krsna consciousness. Do we have a program?
Prabhupada: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, samo damas titiksa.
Yogesvara: You want to translate? (French)
Prabhupada: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes.
Yogesvara:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
Prabhupada: This is definition of the first-class man.
Yogesvara: Do you want me to translate?
Prthu-putra: (translates)
Prabhupada: With all these qualifications, one can become first-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class...
Bhagavan: (correcting translator): "These people should be..." Prabhupada said: "These people."
Prthu-putra: (corrects translation)
Prabhupada: A class of men, first-class men...
Yogesvara: He says "We say, 'They should be,' " which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation.
Prabhupada: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is..., Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first-class men, to lead the human society. Then next class... The head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated...
Yogesvara: Nitai?
Prabhupada: Teja... What is that?
Nitai: It's uh...
Prabhupada: Tejas. No?
Nitai: Sauryam,
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.43]
"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas."
Prabhupada: Next class, the vaisyas. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44].
Nitai:
krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
sudrasyapi svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.44]
"Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras, there is labor and service to others."
Prabhupada: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all sudras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.
Prthu-putra: He says this concept is against the...
Yogesvara: "Traditional western capitalism..."
Prthu-putra: The traditional western capitalists.
Yogesvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?
Prabhupada: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gita and...
Prabhupada: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages.
M. Mesman: English?
Prabhupada: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France?
Bhagavan: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple.
Prabhupada: Dedicated devotee, hundred. (French)
Yogesvara: If one is a full-time disciple...
Prabhupada: He's dedicated disciple.
Yogesvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here?
Prabhupada: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris or they are a little bit everywhere...
Yogesvara: Explain there's travelling parties.
Bhagavan: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have a school in France.
Prabhupada: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French)
Yogesvara: This school is for all ages or just for children?
Prabhupada: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are... Other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy. Ph.D. Beginning from A,B,C,D, up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books.
Yogesvara: Did you write all these books?
Prabhupada: That you can say. What can I...?
Yogesvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?"
Bhagavan: Prabhupada has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word-meaning. (French) Then I combine with reference to the modern society, how they can be applicable to the modern life. (French)
Yogesvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement?
Prabhupada: That I do not know, but many French men came to see me, and...
Yogesvara: Last year, at Hotel De Ville.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel De Ville.
Prabhupada: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publications that will come. Yes? Hmmm. (someone comes in with a plate of prasadam)
Prthu-putra: (explains about prasadam)
Prabhupada: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two three, things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparations out of that. From milk and grains and sugar... And? What else?
Prthu-putra: Fruit, vegetables.
Bhagavan: Fruits.
Prabhupada: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take.
Yogesvara: Maybe you can also explain that this...
Prabhupada: What is this preparation, explain. You explain.
Yogesvara: This is burfi.
Bhagavan: : This is cake, cookie.
Prabhupada: No, not cookie. It is burfi like... What is this made of?
Bhagavan: This is...
Girl: This is sandesa.
Prabhupada: Oh, sandesa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandesa, you give him one more. So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparations, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk, we make hundreds of preparations. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh, everything, whatever he likes. Because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free. Without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French)
Prthu-putra: He says there is a French...
Yogesvara: Saying.
Prthu-putra: A French saying that says, "We don't have to kill the cow's milk."
Yogesvara: The cow who gives milk.
Prthu-putra: The cow who gives milk.
Yogesvara: One should not kill... That's a French saying.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Yogesvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow?
Yogesvara: It's a proverb.
Prthu-putra: Proverb.
Prabhupada: Problem?
Yogesvara: Proverb.
Prabhupada: So put into action this proverb. So that is... You are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives...? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead, free of charges. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him.
Prabhupada: So kindly do this service. Krsna will bless you.
M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. (end)
Yogesvara: It is part of the National Assembly?
M. Mesman: Yes. It is in the National Assembly. It is National... Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like we have in our country, "Legislative Assembly".
Yogesvara: (French)
M. Mesman: (French)
Yogesvara: Yes, like that. (French)
Prabhupada: But they're not necessarily lawyers.
M. Mesman: (French)
Prabhupada: We are also lawyer. Not in the material sense. But we know what is the law of God. (French)
Yogesvara: He asks, "What are our activities in France?"
Prabhupada: The same thing: to induce people to become lawful to the laws of God. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks what are we doing for that?
Nitai: What ways are we doing that?
Prthu-putra: In which way, what way, how?
Prabhupada: This, we are chanting the holy name of Lord so that people may hear and their hearts be cleansed to understand what is God. (French)
Prthu-putra: This gentleman asks if the disciples have to give up their religion, if, for example, they are Christian, they have to give up Christianity to be devotee.
Prabhupada: Well, Christianity also, they are trying to understand God, and we are also trying to understand, not only understand, but we, we are trying others to understand what is God. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have temple in France or if we do in apartment or if we do in conference, private conferences. How we are doing it?
Prabhupada: Anyway. We welcome all, all learned men, or leading men, to understand this philosophy. And the book is... You show Bhagavad-gita. And all other books also show him. (French)
Yogesvara: He says, unfortunately, he doesn't read English.
Prabhupada: Here is French. French language. (French)
Bhagavan: We have practical political philosophy.
Yogesvara: He asks what are our political principles in Krsna consciousness. Do we have a program?
Prabhupada: Our... We have not only political program, but we have got political, and economical, intellectual, and ordinary. We think... Just like in your body, there are four divisions: the head, the arms, the belly and the leg. So this is complete. Head is the most important division. If you cut your head, then everything finished. Therefore head must be there. Head means first-class intelligent men. And their qualification is stated... Find out, samo damas titiksa.
Yogesvara: You want to translate? (French)
Prabhupada: So there must be four divisions of the society, the first-class men, the second-class men, the third-class men and the rest, fourth-class. The first-class men should be self-restrained, control over the senses... Hmmm. Read. Yes.
Yogesvara:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.42]
Prabhupada: This is definition of the first-class man.
Yogesvara: Do you want me to translate?
Prthu-putra: (translates)
Prabhupada: With all these qualifications, one can become first-class man. They should be the directors, or the brain of the society. The next class...
Bhagavan: (correcting translator): "These people should be..." Prabhupada said: "These people."
Prthu-putra: (corrects translation)
Prabhupada: A class of men, first-class men...
Yogesvara: He says "We say, 'They should be,' " which indicates that perhaps now we do not have that situation.
Prabhupada: No. Practically none. That is the defect of the modern society, that there is no brain. Therefore the whole world is in chaotic condition. In your country also, it is famous for so many revolutions. And whole Europe is..., Russia and other countries, because there is no brain. So there is need of these qualified first-class men, to lead the human society. Then next class... The head is first class, and next class: arms, protector, administrator. Their qualification is stated...
Yogesvara: Nitai?
Prabhupada: Teja... What is that?
Nitai: It's uh...
Prabhupada: Tejas. No?
Nitai: Sauryam,
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.43]
"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas."
Prabhupada: Next class, the vaisyas. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44].
Nitai:
krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
paricaryatmakam karma
sudrasyapi svabhava-jam
[Bg. 18.44]
"Farming, cattle-raising and business are the qualities of the work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras, there is labor and service to others."
Prabhupada: At the present moment, the people in general, they are engaged in service, in factories, in big, big office, big, big establishment. So they're all sudras, fourth-class men. And the fourth-class men select their representative. So they must be also fourth-class. Democracy means selected, I mean to..., voted, elected. So because they are being elected by the fourth-class men, the leaders are also fourth-class men. The fourth-class men cannot appreciate the first-class men. And there is lacking of second-class men. So the result is that at the present moment, the whole world is being managed by the fourth-class men. Therefore, there are so many anomalies.
Prthu-putra: He says this concept is against the...
Yogesvara: "Traditional western capitalism..."
Prthu-putra: The traditional western capitalists.
Yogesvara: It is against capitalism, this idea?
Prabhupada: No. It is the movement to qualify men to their respective positions. It is an educational system to divide first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class. They all required, but at the present moment, the fourth-class man is occupying the first-class man's place. We want to divide the society into real first-class, second-class, third-class... They're all required, but they have got their respective positions, not topsy-turvied. As the, as to keep the body fit, we require the head, the hands, the belly and the legs. If we simply keep legs, it is useless. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks what language we use when we read Bhagavad-gita and...
Prabhupada: No. This is in Sanskrit language, but we translate into different languages.
M. Mesman: English?
Prabhupada: English, French, German, Spanish, and other languages. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have to be disciple, do we have to know Sanskrit or to learn Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. Because it is published in other languages. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks how many disciples there is in France?
Bhagavan: Tell him there's hundred devotees, but there's hundreds who come to the temple.
Prabhupada: Dedicated devotee, hundred. (French)
Yogesvara: If one is a full-time disciple...
Prabhupada: He's dedicated disciple.
Yogesvara: Does that mean he must give up his family, and come and live here?
Prabhupada: No, he can live with his family. It is to take up the cause, not to give up the family. We don't believe in giving up. We believe in engaging them properly. That is our philosophy. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if the hundreds devotee are all in Paris or they are a little bit everywhere...
Yogesvara: Explain there's travelling parties.
Bhagavan: No, we're centered in Paris, and they travel all over France. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if we have a school in France.
Prabhupada: We have got a school in Dallas, America, but we are trying to open a school here, also. (French)
Yogesvara: This school is for all ages or just for children?
Prabhupada: No, all ages. Children means they learn Sanskrit and English. And they are taught our books. You show our books, all books. These are... Other books. We have got eighty books like this. So if a student reads all these eighty books, he becomes Doctor of Philosophy. Ph.D. Beginning from A,B,C,D, up to Ph.D., all, everything is there. (French)
Prthu-putra: He asks if you wrote all these books.
Yogesvara: Did you write all these books?
Prabhupada: That you can say. What can I...?
Yogesvara: Yes, our spiritual master has translated these books. (French) He asks, "These are the ancient Sanskrit books then?"
Bhagavan: Prabhupada has not just translated. He's given commentary, purport.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can show the nature, translation, word-meaning. (French) Then I combine with reference to the modern society, how they can be applicable to the modern life. (French)
Yogesvara: Have we interested any of the leading French citizens in our movement?
Prabhupada: That I do not know, but many French men came to see me, and...
Yogesvara: Last year, at Hotel De Ville.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: Last year, you were received by the Mayor at Hotel De Ville.
Prabhupada: No, but in America we have reception from highly scholarly people, university heads, like that. Our books are being read in universities, colleges, and they're accepted in big, big libraries. Not only accepted what is published, but they have forward order for all the publications that will come. Yes? Hmmm. (someone comes in with a plate of prasadam)
Prthu-putra: (explains about prasadam)
Prabhupada: They have learned this preparation, these girls. We have taught them. We are strictly vegetarian. From grains, from milk and sugar, and just two three, things, we require, and we can prepare thousands of preparations out of that. From milk and grains and sugar... And? What else?
Prthu-putra: Fruit, vegetables.
Bhagavan: Fruits.
Prabhupada: Fruits, vegetable, we can prepare thousands of preparations, very palatable. Some of them you can taste. Yes, take. Whatever you like, take.
Yogesvara: Maybe you can also explain that this...
Prabhupada: What is this preparation, explain. You explain.
Yogesvara: This is burfi.
Bhagavan: : This is cake, cookie.
Prabhupada: No, not cookie. It is burfi like... What is this made of?
Bhagavan: This is...
Girl: This is sandesa.
Prabhupada: Oh, sandesa. It is milk preparation. Give him one more. No, no. This sandesa, you give him one more. So our recommendation is, "Don't kill cow." Take milk and make thousands of preparations, all nutritious and very healthy. They do not know how to use cow. Instead of killing, if we take, let the animal live and give us milk, and from the milk, we make hundreds of preparations. The milk is nothing but blood, transformation of blood. So we take the blood by killing the animal, but we do not wish to kill such an important animal, but they take the blood in form of milk and make preparation. And those who are flesh-eaters, let them wait for the death of the cow. Then let them eat the flesh, not living condition. So we are making preparation that keep the cows, protect the cows, and when the cow dies, the flesh-eater may take it away. So he can take the skin, he can take the hoof, he can take the horn, he can take the flesh, everything, whatever he likes. Because when it is dead, it is no more useful for us. So the others, who are interested with the skin, in the flesh, in the hoof, they can take it. And they get it free. Without any cost. Because after death, we don't want it. So this is our program. Let the cows live. We take sufficient milk. We are getting milk, one thousand pounds. One thousand pounds daily in our, one center, New Vrindaban, Virginia. So we are making various preparations from the milk, and they are very happy, and the cows are also happy. So this is one of our programs, to stop killing this important animal. And the flesh-eaters may wait a little until the cow dies. Then he gets the opportunity. Why there should be slaughterhouse maintained? As you are one of the leading citizens of Paris, we appeal to you to take up this consideration seriously. Why we should maintain slaughterhouse? If we want to eat the flesh, let us wait till the death. And there will be death. There is no doubt about it. So why they should maintain slaughterhouse? And this is most cruelty. A animal which is giving milk, so important foodstuff, and that is being killed, it does not suit any moral sense of any human being. On the contrary, according to Vedic system, there are seven mothers. And cow is accepted one of them. Because she gives milk, and we take her milk, therefore she's our mother. So this is our philosophy. (French)
Prthu-putra: He says there is a French...
Yogesvara: Saying.
Prthu-putra: A French saying that says, "We don't have to kill the cow's milk."
Yogesvara: The cow who gives milk.
Prthu-putra: The cow who gives milk.
Yogesvara: One should not kill... That's a French saying.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Yogesvara: That one should not kill the cow that gives milk.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Very good philosophy. Why don't you follow?
Yogesvara: It's a proverb.
Prthu-putra: Proverb.
Prabhupada: Problem?
Yogesvara: Proverb.
Prabhupada: So put into action this proverb. So that is... You are one of the leading mayor. That is our appeal. What is unreasonableness in our proposal that so long the cow lives...? Cow, every cow gives milk. So it fulfills your proverb also. So under the circumstances, let the cows live peacefully, take milk and make this preparation of cow's milk, and when it is dead, free of charges. (French)
Yogesvara: He says he will try to take to heart what you have told him today, and he thanks you for having received him.
Prabhupada: So kindly do this service. Krsna will bless you.
M. Mesman: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation with Monsieur Mesman, Chief of Law House of Paris -- June 11,
1974, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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