Bombay, Novewmber 20, 1975
Prabhupada: Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit of staying here.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: I must first of all imbibe the spirit. No?
Prabhupada: You have already. Otherwise how you are coming daily?
Dr. Patel: I don't know. I have got some...
Prabhupada: We don't pay you any fee.
Dr. Patel: I feel some sort of attachment to you. That is why I come.
Prabhupada: We don't pay you any fees, but why you come here?
Dr. Patel: That I don't know. (laughter)
Prabhupada: What do you charge when you go outside?
Dr. Patel: I charge, by night, hundred rupees, and day, sixty, fifty, sixty rupees, not much. I don't charge much here. Bombay people charge double than me. You mean you want to charge me? (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no. Hare Krsna. No, I mean to say, you are a professional man, you charge, but why do you come here free unless you have in mind?
Dr. Patel: I don't understand why I am attracted to you specially. I don't understand. I very much thinking, I have been thinking about it. There must be some purva-janma. We may be relatives. I don't know. No sadhu has been able to attract me as much as you have. Not even temples have attracted me, to tell the truth.
Yasomatinandana: There is no sadhu except Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] Dr. Karttika Chandra Bose, he was a very big man. I was, under him, manager of Bose's laboratory. So from the very beginning my father was paying him two rupees fees. But when he became very big, still my father was paying two rupees. He was friend. So he refused to take. "No, no, no, you must be paid something." So he used to accept that two rupees. [break]
Yasomatinandana: Two rupees in those days were lot of money.
Prabhupada: Yes. Two rupees, nowadays forty rupees at least. Twenty times. Just like ghee. You can... Ghee or gold. Gold standard. So in our childhood, I have seen our mother used to purchase gold for ornaments-twenty rupees.
Dr. Patel: Eighteen, twenty rupees.
Yasomatinandana: Now it is six hundred. Six?
Dr. Patel: Seven hundred.
Yasomatinandana: Thirty-five times.
Dr. Patel: When I was married, gold was at nineteen rupees and fifty paisa.
Prabhupada: No. No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930.
Prabhupada: Nineteen rupees?
Dr. Patel: Nineteen rupees and a half.
Prabhupada: Per tola?
Dr. Patel: Per tola.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: In 1930. 1930, yes.
Indian man (1): Sovereign cost eighteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because...
Dr. Patel: Sovereign was fourteen rupees.
Prabhupada: In our marriage in 1918...
Dr. Patel: It was more because the First World War. Then it slumped down.
Prabhupada: It dropped.
Dr. Patel: And the lowest was in 1930. Then it rose. Then in 1935 it was thirty rupees and in 1940 it was thirty-eight, and 1950 it was fifty rupees. And 1956 we bought at the rate of fifty-six rupees. I still remember that because we have been buying gold every year.
Indian man (2): 1959 or '60 the price was ninety-six rupees.
Dr. Patel: Then suddenly it rose. Now, because Americans are buying gold, the gold standard has been left out. They have taken, cornered the gold of the whole world. But I have heard that the Russians have got some gold mountains on the surface. They can take out gold very easily from there. Here you have to dig up deep down.
Prabhupada: No, in South Africa there is gold. In the city there are so many gold mines in South Africa.
Dr. Patel: Yes. South Africa is today supplying more than half of the world gold. Our mines are getting exhausted in Kolar(?) and all this, Mysore State. America, they have not been able to search out gold anywhere. Perhaps in South America they may be having some gold mines, but they have not made any survey. But the Russians, they say there are very huge mountains, gold on the surface.
Yasomatinandana: Sumeru is made of gold, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yasomatinandana: Where is that located? (laughter)
Dr. Patel: In your mind.
Prabhupada: No. Where is the sun located now?
Yasomatinandana: 93,000,000...
Prabhupada: No, no. Sun. Sun. Where is located now?
Yasomatinandana: Oh, it's out of my sight.
Prabhupada: You cannot see it.
Yasomatinandana: Sumeru we cannot see. It's not on the earth?
Prabhupada: You can, but you have no eyes.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) I call him also maharaja. He's a brahmana.
Yasomatinandana: Brahma-bandhu.
Dr. Patel: I don't know whether you are a bandhu or yourself. Well, I call you what I...
Nanda-kumara: In South America one man went up the Amazon River and he found a place where he could pick gold nuggets up out of the water.
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets are there in the rivers, so many, in Africa.
Prabhupada: Gold?
Dr. Patel: Gold nuggets. Because gold never get, I mean, oxidized. It is always in (unclear). So nuggets, they are available in big rivers even in Africa. Because when they come through the mountain, you know.
Prabhupada: There is one river in India also, Suvarna-rekha, between Orissa and Bengal.
Dr. Patel: The sand is of the...
Prabhupada: Yes. There you can find gold.
Brahmananda: The city of Johannesburg is built on a gold reef, a reef of gold. There's so much gold there, and to dig it up they will have to break the city streets. They have deliberately built the city on top of the gold.
Dr. Patel: That South Africa is in the belt of Brazil more or less. And Brazil is very difficult place to search about this because they are all jungle, no? Brazil and south of Brazil. [break]
Prabhupada: ...Russians do not utilize the gold...
Dr. Patel: They think gold has got no value so far as value... Because it is a stamping metal. Otherwise what use it can be made of? So far as the society is concerned, iron is more important than gold, to tell the truth.
Prabhupada: So let them exchange.
Dr. Patel: From the utility point of view.
Prabhupada: Let them exchange. We give them iron. (laughter) Let me...
Dr. Patel: They don't want to. They may use it at some future date.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals.
Dr. Patel: Karl Marx, Hegel, Engels, all these fellows were more materialist, all those three philosophers. And the philosophy of Karl Marx is the abstract materialism.
Brahmananda: Now one book has been published in Russia, An Appreciation of Nehru. All the...
Dr. Patel: He was a Marxist, you see. He went in 1912 to Moscow before the revolution to meet all those fellows.
Brahmananda: This book is stories of different Russian scientists and politicians, philosophers, giving their appreciation of how they knew Nehru and...
Prabhupada: Just to pacify Indira Gandhi.
Dr. Patel: Flattering.
Brahmananda: So they've just presented this book.
Yasomatinandana: Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih.
Prabhupada: Hm, yes. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharai samstuta purusa pasuh [SB 2.3.19].
Dr. Patel: How they smuggled away the secret of atom smashing from America, these Russians?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dr. Patel: They smuggled away the secret of atom bomb from America.
Prabhupada: The Germans.
Dr. Patel: No, the Russians smuggled away. Germans came to America, taking that...
Prabhupada: They understood from the Germans.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but it is said that the German scientist ran away to America because they were afraid of Hitler. If Hitler gets the secret of atom, he would bomb out the whole world.
Prabhupada: No, no. Hitler knew it.
Dr. Patel: No. They were not able to be successful to...
Prabhupada: No, no. He knew it, everything, but he did not like to do it. He said. He said. He was gentleman. But these people are not gentlemen. He knew it perfectly well. He said that "I can smash the whole world, but I do not use that weapon." The Germans already discovered. But out of humanity they did not use it. And all the, your American, other countries, they have stolen from German ideas.
Dr. Patel: I think, sir, German scientists ran away during the wartime to America.
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of them went to Russia, some of them-(aside) Hare Krsna -- to America.
Brahmananda: The German scientists, they went to America. But the plans for these things were left in Germany and the Russians came. The Russians got the plans, the Americans got the scientists.
Dr. Patel: I see. So the Russians, I mean, scientists produced from the plan the bomb.
Brahmananda: That's why the Americans got it first, because they had the scientists.
Dr. Patel: But that man was caught from America giving away secret to the Russians. He was electrocuted, no? The science does not belong to a single race or a nation.
Prabhupada: No, more scientists were there in Germany.
Dr. Patel: They say Germany could produce more scientists because they had all our, our Vedas and all our secret ancient books with them, the Sanskrit. They had read them.
Prabhupada: That is also fact.
Dr. Patel: And one Sankaracarya -- I don't know which -- who was the professor in one of the colleges of Madras, he went and met Professor Einstein and talked about... And then he gave out some, one sloka of two lines which actually depicted how atoms could be smashed. That is in our sciences.
Indian man (2): This is fact?
Dr. Patel: Yes, it's a fact. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: [break] ...ago, there was one Mr. Badhuri in Benares. He was a great astrologer. So he told me that from Benares the Germans have taken three books: one is Akasa-patola, one is Kapota-vahi and his Khapoda-vahi. Khapoda-vahi, this airplane. Kha means akasa. And there is another science, kapota-vahi, to carry man by the pigeons. That is not yet displayed. Kapota-vahi. And there is another, Akasa-patola. Any, any, even your chairs you sit down; by mantra it will go on.
Dr. Patel: We have in Mahabharata, that, I mean, Bhima threw away those elephants and rowing in the sky. And when Pariksit thought "How could it be?" then that elephants came down in the story. That means they were rowing about just like sputniks of today, perhaps. I don't know how they might have...
Prabhupada: No, three books they have taken. They paid some eight lakhs of rupees. That Mr. Badhuri told me. (aside) Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That means this civilization must have felt the pangs of the modern sciences and then they must have lost it. No?
Prabhupada: Not lost. It is there. You don't take it. That's it. What is there? One who can read... Hare Krsna. Jaya. Good boy.
Harikesa: They couldn't chant those mantras though, could they? If they tried... Even if they tried, they wouldn't be able to chant the mantras.
Prabhupada: Why? Nobody taught them. You are chanting. How you are chanting? Nobody taught them. That is the difficulty.
Jayapataka: Why the Germans are good Sanskrit scholars? Why?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because they had very good tendency for learning Sanskrit to know so many things. That was their research. They knew it that in Sanskrit language there are so many wonderful things.
Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they say that in American universities also, many universities have started teaching Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes. In every school, every college, every university, there is Sanskrit. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...was the real man who, when he started studying Vedas, he realized that in Sanskrit language there is a huge literature of great importance. He spread the things in Germany. No, he was staying in England.
Prabhupada: By international scholars' meeting these diacritic marks were discovered for studying Sanskrit. The diacritic marks which we use, that is international agreement of Sanskrit scholars.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. Those marks. A, and a and u and ai and these dots. Yes, that is international. Nobody can claim. That is long back, sir. I think Max Muller's time.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: There were so many scholars, even in Paris, Germany, and Italy.
Prabhupada: Professor Roe and Webb, they were professor in Presidency College when we were school children. They admitted Sanskrit is the mother of all languages.
Dr. Patel: In fact, Persian is the first letter of Sanskrit which looks like that. When you study Persian, so many words-Sanskrit directly taken Persian. In the Russian language, I mean, so many words are there of Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: No, whole world you'll find Sanskrit. The first word, mother and father, that is Sanskrit, matri and pitri.
Yasomatinandana: Ha, everywhere. Everywhere starts like that, all the languages.
Dr. Patel: Jna, to know, from that, knowledge, jna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Jaya. [break]
Brahmananda: ...mother is "mere" and father is "pere."
Prabhupada: [break] ...is madri? Ba, pha.
Brahmananda: In Spanish, father is "padre."
Dr. Patel: Latin and Sanskrit are more or less common. They have got those sapta-vibhaktis in Latin also.
Prabhupada: And this "Christ" has come from Kristo, Krsna. Yes.
Dr. Patel: The cow from... Gao from cow, and cow from gao. No? It is absolutely not..., so very easy.
Prabhupada: We are Krsnian, and they are Christian. There is similarity.
Dr. Patel: Nomenclature. Christ was really a bhagavata, I mean, in a true sense.
Prabhupada: Anyone who accepts God, he is bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Christ, sir, really taught absolutely bhagavata-dharma. The way... All his sayings, the New Testament and his Sermon on Mount, all is absolutely Bhagavata. I have studied it very, in great detail and compared the two myself. So Christ was the greatest Hindu, to tell the truth. But as those people in the Middle East were heathens and absolutely junglis, they crucified him. Had he been here he would have been a big saint and avatara.
Prabhupada: Recent history is that he did not die. He came to Kashmir.
Dr. Patel: Came to Kashmir. There is a tomb in Kashmir. I read some literature about it. His resurrection... They say that they smuggled him out of that cave. It is possible. When he was on the cross, he...
Prabhupada: No, even by yoga system...
Dr. Patel: He must have gone in a trance.
Prabhupada: He lived by trance.
Dr. Patel: He was a great devotee. There is no doubt about it.
Prabhupada: By trance.
Dr. Patel: When he... On the cross they say he uttered, "Father, don't forsake me." That is the time he went into trance most probably. Eh? He must have gone in trance when he uttered the last words, "Father, don't forsake me." And then when he was brought down in the lap of his mother and they took him in the cave, no? Under the guard of those Italian soldiers. Then there was a big hurricane or something like that and they all ran away. And after that he was smuggled away from that place. Christ has rebuilt his father's temple in true sense, the way he spread the Christianity. The churches have degenerated in his teaching, unfortunately. It is the church. That happens with every, in every, I mean, these things, teachings. Race, this race is very bold, indeed, that God choicest race, these Jews, somehow or other.
Prabhupada: Jews?
Dr. Patel: Really, it is God's choicest race. (laughter) They have produced wonderful people right from Christ up to Professor Einstein, very bold people, very bold indeed. They are truthful to their convictions. They would die for their convictions but they will not, I mean, budge an inch.
Brahmananda: But they're impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Very brave. Very brave race.
Brahmananda: They are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Today still, those people really very brave. Very brave. It is the choicest race from God. It's a fact.
Prabhupada: Brahmananda is very much pleased. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I don't know who are they, but that is a fact. When you look back to the history, it's the really choicest race.
Yasomatinandana: Giriraja is also from.
Dr. Patel: Whatever he may be. I don't know them, who are they. But historically we look back. They are really very brave people. They have died for the sake of their principle. Never budge an inch.
Brahmananda: But they are impersonalists.
Dr. Patel: Impersonalist or personalist is immaterial. (laughter) I mean I talk of boldness, very bold people. Truthful to their conviction. Truthful to their conviction, sir.
Prabhupada: They are so bold that, Shylock?
Brahmananda: Yeah, yeah, the flesh.
Dr. Patel: There are Shylocks everywhere. One Shylock does not mean a bad race. And that Shylock is the creation of that poet.
Prabhupada: No, the... In Europe the Jews are treated like that.
Dr. Patel: Are there not Shylocks in...
Prabhupada: And they are greatest scientist.
Dr. Patel: All the Marwaris, who are they? They are Shylocks. And they give you lot of money and you make them sit first before us, you know.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: I am... Don't say that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the richest in the world.
Dr. Patel: Maybe richer because they are very serious in... Wherever they are, they are serious. In collecting wealth also they are very serious. In collecting, I mean...
Giriraja: Life members.
Dr. Patel: ...them also they are serious. In knowledge also they are serious. And in preaching also.
Giriraja: Prasadam.
Dr. Patel: Look at the Christ. Look at the Christ. Against all odds he's, I mean, up to the end of his life he remained one, truthful to his convictions. [break]
Prabhupada: ...kesa-dharanam. Every young man is keeping big, big hair. Lavanyam kesa... That is the symptom of this age. It is written in the Bhagavata, lavanyam kesa-dharanam. Vipratvam sutram eva hi. Vipratvam sutram eva hi: "A man becomes brahmana simply by that thread."
Dr. Patel: They keep on the thread for cavi, for keeping key there so it may not be lost.
Prabhupada: And dampatye ratim eva hi: "Husband and wife means sex." Dampatye ratim eva hi. This, everything is there.
Dr. Patel: The ideals were established so high that it was difficult for the common folk to reach that.
Prabhupada: That is not for common folk. It is for the rajarsis-imam rajarsayo viduh -- not for the loafer class. Therefore the whole population was trained how to become rajarsi. Now the loafer class, they are taking the place of rajarsi. That is the difficulty. Krsna says that this science is meant for the rajarsi. Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. He did not go to preach to the loafer class.
Dr. Patel: That is why it became nasta.
Prabhupada: No. The system was nasta. A loafer class, he became a student of Bhagavad-gita. That is...Therefore it is nasta. Sa kaleneha yogo nastah parantapa. And anyone, any rascal, is commenting on Bhagavad-gita. But it was meant for the rajarsi.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I must have read at least, if not more, at least twenty commentaries on Bhagavad-gita. But I found the best by Acarya Ramanujacarya and yours.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: You are parallel, more or less. Your, I read in English, but that was in Sanskrit, the Sanskrit explained to English. Wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ramanujacarya has given Vedic quotation for each and every verse.
Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very easy also, Ramanujacarya's.
Prabhupada: Amongst the Vaisnavas, he was the greatest acarya, Ramanujacarya. And to kill the Mayavadis, he was the ablest person, Ramanujacarya. Still in South India, the Mayavadis and the Ramanujas, they have talks, and the Mayavadis are defeated always.
Dr. Patel: These acaryas, they are all Ramanujacarya followers that Tithi Krsnam Acari(?) and Rajgopal Acarya, and they are all these Vaisnavas of Ramanujacarya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya means Vaisnava. Ayar. Ayar. And avaisnava, Nayar, yes.
Dr. Patel: Nayars are non-Aryans. Then the... All Nayars are black, charcoal black, because they are not Aryans. Aryans have the white, light skin.
Prabhupada: Even in Madras there are many brahmanas, black.
Dr. Patel: Brahmanas, they are Ayars. They are quite... Even though they have settled in Madras for generations together, they are still having the color of... (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, no. Aryas, they are not Vaisnava, then. Ayar? Eh?
Indian man (1): Sankaracaryadi.(?)
Prabhupada: Acaryas, they are Vaisnava.
Dr. Patel: He is also nayara, Mr. Mennon.
Prabhupada: No, nayar is not brahmana.
Indian man (1): No brahmanas. No brahmanas.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (1): We have to serve the brahmanas.
Dr. Patel: Don't serve them now. They are rascals.
Indian man (2): (Hindi) [break]
Dr. Patel: ...mother died. Their relatives never came to lift her up. So himself dragged the dead body out and burned her just in front of his house.
Prabhupada: A brahmana says because he is sankara, varna-sankara. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya.
Dr. Patel: Was he? No, no. Both were brahmanas.
Prabhupada: He was born when his mother was widow, and she became pregnant by the priest. So she was going to kill herself. Then her father restrained her, that "Don't do it. Your... In the womb there is a big personality." So the brahmana community did not like her.
Yasomatinandana: Oh, I see.
Prabhupada: Therefore he is called Sankaracarya.
Indian man (2): Varna-sankara.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Sankara is the name of Sankara. I don't agree you have said correctly.
Prabhupada: Sankara... Sankara is Bhagavan. But because he is Sankara, therefore he is not accepted as Bhagavan. Hare Krsna.
Yasomatinandana: Sankara means mixed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained that ksiram yatha dadhi-vikara. Ksiram, milk, becomes dadhi-vikara.
Dr. Patel: Dahi.
Prabhupada: Dahi. So dahi is nothing but milk, but you cannot call it milk.
Dr. Patel: But he was a non-mudri-patha(?) brahmana and I think his father was not a priest but regular man.
Prabhupada: Your daughter?
Indian man (2): Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, where is your son? Huh? (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That was the case with the, this Nanesvara, Santak Nanesvara(?), that his father once became a sannyasi, and then he came back and had a grhastha-asrama with his wife before he was ordered by his guru...
Prabhupada: That is the case with Vallabhacarya also. He became sannyasa, then again back, guru.
Dr. Patel: The sannyasi cannot come back.
Indian man (2): Oh, Vallabhacarya.
Dr. Patel: Vallabhacarya. No, no, Vallabhacarya's whole position is like that. So many of them, all these brahmanas, they think themsevles to be... Some of them are even horrible people; still, they call them gurus.
Prabhupada: That was formerly also. Sukracarya: "Acarya by semina." Sukracarya.
Dr. Patel: Acarya of sukra.
Indian man (1): We have got our Pultasena.(?) Pultasena means he is a lower-class man. He has written the Ramayana in Malayalam. He was the son of a muhri(?) (indistinct), and the muhri was crossing a river, just when he came to a lake. That river he cannot cross because (indistinct). So he said, "There is an auspicious moment. If I get a son, he will be a wonderful chap." So he went and slept in somebody's veranda. That lady (indistinct) He was not getting sleep, walking up and down. He asked (indistinct) The lady of the house came back and told, "Oh, at this auspicious moment if I get a son he will be wonderful chap." So he got a son from that... And this man went away. After so many years, when he came, this boy, from the childhood he went to the temple. And when he goes there he says, "False, false." He used to say because these brahmanas are narrating the Vedas in such a bad way, it is all false only. It is all darkness. The muhri knew if they gave some (Hindi) after praying something, they (indistinct) The boy (indistinct) Then this amuhri came after so many years that way. He saw this boy, he understood it. Then he gave another... [break]
Dr. Patel: ...are rogues. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: And the Patel was subordinate to Nehru. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, no. Patel, for the sake of the country he accepted the subordination. Otherwise whole India, all provinces, selected him as the prime minister. But because this man would have spoiled the whole thing he said, "I don't mind if my country is getting weak." He had a greatness of vision and a big heart. These are all petty-hearted people.
Prabhupada: [break] Now in this age there is no brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. All sudras.
Dr. Patel: They're very arrogant community. Very arrogant community.
Prabhupada: Which?
Dr. Patel: The Kasmiri brahmanas. They had no guts to go against the Muslims there, but they showed their arrogance. Fools they are.
Prabhupada: [break] ...Caitanya Mahaprabhu was sixteen years old, He defeated one great Kasmiri pandita, Kesava Kasmiri.
Dr. Patel: Yes. Yes. I have read it.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...Digvijayi. And when he came to Nabadwip, then he was defeated by a boy, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nimai Pandita.
Dr. Patel: The ancient times, in Sankaracarya's time, Kashmir was supposed to be the...
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given the evidence of His scholarship in the argument with Kesava Kasmiri and Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Two places He has proved Himself as greatest scholar of the.... Hare Krsna. [break] ...read that portion, atmarama ca munayo?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. I have just day before yesterday. I am reading Bhagavata again. I am in the sixth adhyaya, after nearly finishing all the vrttanta of Narada Muni's previous birth and all this. Atmarama. Yes. That sloka is repeated by so many Vaisnavas everywhere.
Prabhupada: [break] You are going to canvass for books? No.
Devotee: I think it's a good idea but we don't have permission yet from the government to do that. We can't do that as yet. [break]
Prabhupada: Now we have to get permission for selling. We have got to.
Dr. Patel: What?
Prabhupada: These books.
Dr. Patel: I don't think there is any need of permission.
Prabhupada: No, we gave our promise... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 20, 1975, Bombay
Friday, April 30, 2010
Thursday, April 29, 2010
"Bhakta Is The Only Scientist"
"Bhakta Is The Only Scientist"
Bombay, Novewmber 18, 1975
Prabhupada: This is beginning of knowledge. Everyone is thinking that he is independent. But completely under the control of prakrti.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Then brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca.
Prabhupada: Where is the entrance? Here? This side?
Saurabha: This will be, there. This will be the entrance.
Prabhupada: A small door?
Saurabha: No, no. This three big space, about seven feet, seven feet, seven feet. There's three openings.
Prabhupada: [break] Scientists, do they accept this prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]?
Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darsana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom.
Prabhupada: No. What was the report?
Brahmananda: Of the books?
Prabhupada: No. The report, speak to him, that science...
Brahmananda: The reporter? Scientist?
Prabhupada: Scientist.
Giriraja: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we here?
Prabhupada: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God...
Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God?
Prabhupada: No, no. You say some of the scientists.
Dr. Patel: No, somebody else does not believe in God. Don't put me there. (laughter) He does not believe in God. Suppose he does not believe in God. (laughter) It is impossible for me not to believe in God, how much I may try even in my dream. It is impossible.
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking not you but a scientist, so-called scientist. So what did he say? That "There is no need of God"?
Giriraja: Yes. He said, "We don't know where the elements came from that made the creation, but we know that we don't require God to explain it."
Prabhupada: This is the reply. All the so-called scientists, their only point is how to deny the existence of God.
Dr. Patel: But how can you say, "All the scientists," sir? I strongly oppose this statement.
Giriraj: I have spoken to many...
Dr. Patel: I mean, all scientists
Prabhupada: Majority.
Dr. Patel: Some of them.
Giriraja: I have spoken to many students coming out of the Indian schools, and they all say that "The universe was created by a chunk and it exploded," and they have no training that God is there behind everything that you see.
Dr. Patel: Everything is occuring by explosions. In our mind an explosion occurs, and we start believing in God. So that is not that, sir. I think they are misguided. How can anything happen without a supreme power?
Prabhupada: If they are misguided, how they are scientists?
Dr. Patel: But we have all learned in the same schools of science, he, I and the rest, also scientists, here. We have learned the same way the science. But it all depends upon how he grasps it, how he thinks about it, how he understands it.
Prabhupada: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.
Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darsana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.
Prabhupada: There are some scientists...
Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: That doesn't matter if you call them "rascal" or no rascal, but that is their way. That's all. Our way is this; their way may be that. We must not... By many...
Prabhupada: No, no. God says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: How you can manufacture your own way? That is rascal.
Dr. Patel: But that is their bhakti.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That...
Dr. Patel: How can you say that? You may call them "rascal." Doesn't matter to them. But then that is their way, sir.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy.
Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood.
Prabhupada: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is...
Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi-purvakam. Avidhi-purvakam.
Prabhupada: Avidhi means rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or...
Prabhupada: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi...
Dr. Patel: But they are going to the same place.
Prabhupada: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." (laughter) He's another rascal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir.
Prabhupada: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...?
Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, I cannot hear this.
Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some...
Prabhupada: But you are not a junglis; you are a medical man, sir.
Dr. Patel: Please listen to me. I beseech you to hear me for a minute. They do some things which we cannot explain, and we do by their own ways.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: The scientists know it.
Prabhupada: As soon as you do in your own way, that is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Then we are rascals.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I am representative to all the rascals of the world here. (laughs) That way, if you say so.
Prabhupada: Anything which is really scientific, you cannot do in your own way. Two plus two equal to four is applicable everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to five. It is my own way." This is rascaldom. Scientific means "two plus two -- four." It is accepted everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to three. That is my own way."
Dr. Patel: So many phenomenas which are...
Prabhupada: No, no. This is rascaldom. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: We are not able to explaining...
Prabhupada: Scientific means there cannot be two opinions. The same, that is scientific.
Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but...
Prabhupada: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go staight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mudha...
Prabhupada: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist?
Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what...
Prabhupada: If you say, "My scientific way is foolish way..."
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Mine is foolish way, according to you. But according to you... Just be very wise. What is truth only God knows.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is going on. That is your science.
Dr. Patel: What is truth, God knows.
Prabhupada: Everyone is... A dog is also thinking that he is very intelligent. That is going on all over the world. Ahankara-vimudhatma. That is rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. "Oh, I am all right. I am going on my own way." That is rascaldom. That we say, rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. This is rascal... Vimudhatma means rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: But the real scientists don't say this, that they are karta. That is the difference in the modern scientists and the little, hundred years back scientists.
Prabhupada: Here the scientists says, "There is no need of God."
Dr. Patel: That one man told you, and you have been, I mean, deriding all the scientists.
Prabhupada: No, no, mostly they are speaking that way.
Dr. Patel: You are very harsh to the scientists.
Prabhupada: But they have created havoc, godlessness, atheism, all over the world. That is our protest.
Dr. Patel: And we are taking the benefit of that science by flying by the plane, by going by train...
Prabhupada: It has become a difficult task.
Dr. Patel: ...by putting on these clothes, and so many things.
Prabhupada: Just like the students, they say... What do they say? The students?
Giriraja: That in the beginning there was a chunk, and it exploded, and there's no God.
Prabhupada: How they are spoiling the career. Whole life is spoiled. They are being taught in this way. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. This is going on, schools, colleges: "Don't believe in God." That has become a fashion, advancement. Yes. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: But all are not like that.
Indian man (1): Not all, but some. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Not some, ninety percent.
Dr. Patel: Some of the fools like him may be thinking like that. I have been right from the... I was born in science and I never thought that there was no God.
Prabhupada: No, no, you...
Dr. Patel: Do you call me an exception?
Prabhupada: I know that. I know. I know you.
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: No, no, but I am one of the scientists. He is one of the scientists. He has put on these clothes and...
Prabhupada: But you are supporting the rascal. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, but, I don't support a rascal. My explanations are... I strongly...
Prabhupada: No, no, you say that "He is trying to understand in his own way."
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. Now, this point, you go straight. I go this way if I am a mudha, but I go there. That's all right. I'm a mudha. You may call me a fool. I don't mind it. But that is my way, and I am adamant about it. You may call me ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham... [Bg. 3.27]. But he is not calling himself a karta. He goes his own way. That's all. I am sorry to say these words to you, but this is what they think.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. That is...
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Call them if you like. Those were the rascals before. Some of them are rascals before. Even then...
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not... I am not trying, but Krsna says. Krsna says, "mudha." Krsna says, "mudha."
Yasomatinandana: I was a rascal until I met Prabhupada.
Dr. Patel: You are now not a rascal. I have been watching you. Thing is this, that there are multiple ways of God. We don't know the greatness of God. We just... I feel aghast in thinking about greatness of God, simply.
Prabhupada: There is no multiple ways. That is...
Dr. Patel: There may be any number of ways, but I feel that there is what greatness of God. That's all.
Prabhupada: That is... We protest. There is no many number. There is only one.
Dr. Patel: That depends on his own way.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: But you must be benevolent to these people, at least to an extent, to the scientists, that all scientists are wrong, are they? All scientists are not gadhas. Some of them are good (Hindi) and some of them evolve into man even.
Prabhupada: But we say... If somebody says that "I have got my own way to understand," he is not scientist.
Dr. Patel: Their own way, a section of humanity's way. Not one man's. Science...
Prabhupada: There cannot be many ways.
Dr. Patel: You see, our sad-darsana. The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaisesikas also wanted, were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. (Hindi) Sad-darsana. Vaisesika is one of the recognized darsanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further.
Prabhupada: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...
Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaisesikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaisesika-sastra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.
Prabhupada: No...
Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science...
Prabhupada: Ravana was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as raksasa.
Dr. Patel: But we are not Ravanas, are we? We are Vaisesikas.
Prabhupada: No, anyone.
Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaisesika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaisesika scientists.
Prabhupada: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals.
Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta.
Prabhupada: That we don't say. Krsna says, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15].
Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not...
Prabhupada: These rascals. All these rascals.
Dr. Patel: Those who are not in search of Krsna.
Prabhupada: One who has not understood Krsna, they are all mayayapahrta-jnana. He may be Vaisesika, kanada, paramanuvada, mayavada. There are so... I know these.
Dr. Patel: Mayavada and these are all...
Prabhupada: They different, different philosophies.
Dr. Patel: Vaisesika is one of the six sciences, just like...
Prabhupada: No, mayavada is also one of them.
Dr. Patel: Mayavada does not belong to one of the six sciences, do they?
Prabhupada: Yes. Kanada, Gautama, Astavakra, then nastika Kapila. There are so many.
Yasomatinandana: Patanjali.
Prabhupada: Patanjali, yes.
Dr. Patel: Patanjali yoga is also... He said, isvarah pari danaiva. (?) Doesn't he say in the raja-yoga sutra that...
Prabhupada: He is suggesting, but he has no clear idea.
Dr. Patel: He definitely has said in thirty-fourth sutra, isvarah pari danaiva: "If you can't vacate your mind, put God inside." isvarah pari danaiva.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. Holiday Inn Hotel? [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...accept God. But if they do accept God, then none of their activity shows it. They're constantly trying to disprove God.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Indian man (2): Srila Prabhupada? This boy wants to go in gurukula school.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Jayapataka: In your prayer we say, pascatya-desa-tarine. But now don't you think we could say "visva"? (Prabhupada chuckles) I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world.
Prabhupada: I say that because my Guru Maharaja appointed me for that purpose. [break]
Jayapataka: There was a group of reporters who went to see the district magistrate, and they were asking him, taking interview about so many different things. So finally they kept asking about ISKCON because of our Mayapura center. So he said, "Well, I can't say anything about that. I can't say..." Finally one reporter asked another very direct question about their staying here, this, that. And he said, "I have order from Indira Gandhi that the officers, that matha gamrami na.(?) No one, officer, should worry about ISKCON. You just do your own thing. So I can say nothing about them. I have got no authority to say anything about them. We've got this order from Indira Gandhi." Then the reporter said, "Oh, we can print that?" He said, "Please don't print that. Otherwise I will lose my job." So when the local Congress people heard that, they were very happy, our friends. So I think your visit did a great benefit.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Jayapataka: I brought the letter that the district magistrate gave, recommending...
Prabhupada: I think, therefore, they are giving this concession, two years.
Jayapataka: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: [break] ...said that "Don't bother about ISKCON."
Jayapataka: Yes. In Bengali they were talking, matha gamrami na.(?)
Prabhupada: [break] ...you said somebody is coming?
Giriraja: Oh, the Maharaja of Udaipur.
Prabhupada: Ah. So?
Giriraja: I have to call him at nine o'clock and ask him to come earlier.
Prabhupada: No. You have already appointed time, you said.
Giriraja: No, he suggested eleven, and I said I would ask you and ring him back at nine.
Prabhupada: So the interview, you suggested or he suggested?
Giriraja: Mr....
Prabhupada: Udaipur.
Giriraja: He suggested. We suggested having a program at his house. So then he suggested that he wanted to meet you.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Jayapataka: [break]...now all the Caitanya-caritamrtas are printed.
Prabhupada: You have got all?
Jayapataka: No. I only have first, Adi-lila.
Prabhupada: So, you haven't got here? No? So they want book. So they are not dispatching Caitanya-caritamrta?
Gopala Krsna: They haven't dispatched latter volumes. They've done the first few but not the new ones which have come. But he is sending some for your room, to have a complete set in each of your rooms.
Prabhupada: No, no. It should be exhibited in Mayapura, especially.
Jayapataka: It would be nice to have a big book display, I think.
Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately ask them to dispatch to Mayapura all books for demonstration. That is the main item, and they have not sent in Mayapura? Caitanya?
Giriraja: Well, other than the Adi-lila, the later volumes only came within about a few days ago.
Prabhupada: No, no. In mayapura all the books should be displayed.
Gopala Krsna: Okay. We'll get a complete set for display also.
Prabhupada: Caitanya-caritamrta especially, it should be displayed in Mayapura. Immediately ask to send to Mayapura. And whatever books you have got already, you send them immediately. You select what books you want. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].
Gopala Krsna: [break]...from Hong Kong yesterday, and there's one Chinese producer who's making a Chinese movie and he wants our devotees to be in it for some time.
Prabhupada: To make some money out of all...
Gopala Krsna: It shows how a girl is going to different spiritual gurus for guidance. So they are sending the script first for approval.
Prabhupada: All right.
Gopala Krsna: They're going to show how Vaisnavas live.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Gopala Krsna: Devananda feels that will give us a lot of publicity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they paid good money.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they went in some movies. They got two, three thousand dollars. [break] ...buy kilos when they're that big. So many of them.
Prabhupada: That's nice. That will keep the water clean.
Jayapataka: Yes.
Prabhupada: But be careful that these rascals may not come and throw out(?), the Mohammedans.
Jayapataka: [break] ... is growing on the water. And in the hot days they go in there.
Prabhupada: No. That should be cleaned away.
Jayapataka: Taken off.
Prabhupada: Yes. You can eat it, kalmisan(?). It is very nice.
Jayapataka: Yes. We eat that. We shouldn't let it grow in the pukkur? It's growing in one little corner of the pukkur.
Prabhupada: So that should be cleansed and taken, and the sak can be eaten. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 18, 1975, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
Bombay, Novewmber 18, 1975
Prabhupada: This is beginning of knowledge. Everyone is thinking that he is independent. But completely under the control of prakrti.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Then brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca.
Prabhupada: Where is the entrance? Here? This side?
Saurabha: This will be, there. This will be the entrance.
Prabhupada: A small door?
Saurabha: No, no. This three big space, about seven feet, seven feet, seven feet. There's three openings.
Prabhupada: [break] Scientists, do they accept this prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]?
Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darsana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom.
Prabhupada: No. What was the report?
Brahmananda: Of the books?
Prabhupada: No. The report, speak to him, that science...
Brahmananda: The reporter? Scientist?
Prabhupada: Scientist.
Giriraja: Oh, yes.
Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we here?
Prabhupada: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God...
Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God?
Prabhupada: No, no. You say some of the scientists.
Dr. Patel: No, somebody else does not believe in God. Don't put me there. (laughter) He does not believe in God. Suppose he does not believe in God. (laughter) It is impossible for me not to believe in God, how much I may try even in my dream. It is impossible.
Prabhupada: No, I am speaking not you but a scientist, so-called scientist. So what did he say? That "There is no need of God"?
Giriraja: Yes. He said, "We don't know where the elements came from that made the creation, but we know that we don't require God to explain it."
Prabhupada: This is the reply. All the so-called scientists, their only point is how to deny the existence of God.
Dr. Patel: But how can you say, "All the scientists," sir? I strongly oppose this statement.
Giriraj: I have spoken to many...
Dr. Patel: I mean, all scientists
Prabhupada: Majority.
Dr. Patel: Some of them.
Giriraja: I have spoken to many students coming out of the Indian schools, and they all say that "The universe was created by a chunk and it exploded," and they have no training that God is there behind everything that you see.
Dr. Patel: Everything is occuring by explosions. In our mind an explosion occurs, and we start believing in God. So that is not that, sir. I think they are misguided. How can anything happen without a supreme power?
Prabhupada: If they are misguided, how they are scientists?
Dr. Patel: But we have all learned in the same schools of science, he, I and the rest, also scientists, here. We have learned the same way the science. But it all depends upon how he grasps it, how he thinks about it, how he understands it.
Prabhupada: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.
Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darsana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.
Prabhupada: There are some scientists...
Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: That doesn't matter if you call them "rascal" or no rascal, but that is their way. That's all. Our way is this; their way may be that. We must not... By many...
Prabhupada: No, no. God says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: How you can manufacture your own way? That is rascal.
Dr. Patel: But that is their bhakti.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That...
Dr. Patel: How can you say that? You may call them "rascal." Doesn't matter to them. But then that is their way, sir.
Prabhupada: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy.
Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood.
Prabhupada: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is...
Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi-purvakam. Avidhi-purvakam.
Prabhupada: Avidhi means rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or...
Prabhupada: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi...
Dr. Patel: But they are going to the same place.
Prabhupada: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." (laughter) He's another rascal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir.
Prabhupada: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...?
Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, I cannot hear this.
Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some...
Prabhupada: But you are not a junglis; you are a medical man, sir.
Dr. Patel: Please listen to me. I beseech you to hear me for a minute. They do some things which we cannot explain, and we do by their own ways.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: The scientists know it.
Prabhupada: As soon as you do in your own way, that is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Then we are rascals.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: I am representative to all the rascals of the world here. (laughs) That way, if you say so.
Prabhupada: Anything which is really scientific, you cannot do in your own way. Two plus two equal to four is applicable everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to five. It is my own way." This is rascaldom. Scientific means "two plus two -- four." It is accepted everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to three. That is my own way."
Dr. Patel: So many phenomenas which are...
Prabhupada: No, no. This is rascaldom. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: We are not able to explaining...
Prabhupada: Scientific means there cannot be two opinions. The same, that is scientific.
Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but...
Prabhupada: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go staight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mudha...
Prabhupada: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist?
Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what...
Prabhupada: If you say, "My scientific way is foolish way..."
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Mine is foolish way, according to you. But according to you... Just be very wise. What is truth only God knows.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is going on. That is your science.
Dr. Patel: What is truth, God knows.
Prabhupada: Everyone is... A dog is also thinking that he is very intelligent. That is going on all over the world. Ahankara-vimudhatma. That is rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. "Oh, I am all right. I am going on my own way." That is rascaldom. That we say, rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. This is rascal... Vimudhatma means rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: But the real scientists don't say this, that they are karta. That is the difference in the modern scientists and the little, hundred years back scientists.
Prabhupada: Here the scientists says, "There is no need of God."
Dr. Patel: That one man told you, and you have been, I mean, deriding all the scientists.
Prabhupada: No, no, mostly they are speaking that way.
Dr. Patel: You are very harsh to the scientists.
Prabhupada: But they have created havoc, godlessness, atheism, all over the world. That is our protest.
Dr. Patel: And we are taking the benefit of that science by flying by the plane, by going by train...
Prabhupada: It has become a difficult task.
Dr. Patel: ...by putting on these clothes, and so many things.
Prabhupada: Just like the students, they say... What do they say? The students?
Giriraja: That in the beginning there was a chunk, and it exploded, and there's no God.
Prabhupada: How they are spoiling the career. Whole life is spoiled. They are being taught in this way. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. This is going on, schools, colleges: "Don't believe in God." That has become a fashion, advancement. Yes. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: But all are not like that.
Indian man (1): Not all, but some. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Not some, ninety percent.
Dr. Patel: Some of the fools like him may be thinking like that. I have been right from the... I was born in science and I never thought that there was no God.
Prabhupada: No, no, you...
Dr. Patel: Do you call me an exception?
Prabhupada: I know that. I know. I know you.
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: No, no, but I am one of the scientists. He is one of the scientists. He has put on these clothes and...
Prabhupada: But you are supporting the rascal. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: No, but, I don't support a rascal. My explanations are... I strongly...
Prabhupada: No, no, you say that "He is trying to understand in his own way."
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. Now, this point, you go straight. I go this way if I am a mudha, but I go there. That's all right. I'm a mudha. You may call me a fool. I don't mind it. But that is my way, and I am adamant about it. You may call me ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham... [Bg. 3.27]. But he is not calling himself a karta. He goes his own way. That's all. I am sorry to say these words to you, but this is what they think.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. That is...
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Call them if you like. Those were the rascals before. Some of them are rascals before. Even then...
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not... I am not trying, but Krsna says. Krsna says, "mudha." Krsna says, "mudha."
Yasomatinandana: I was a rascal until I met Prabhupada.
Dr. Patel: You are now not a rascal. I have been watching you. Thing is this, that there are multiple ways of God. We don't know the greatness of God. We just... I feel aghast in thinking about greatness of God, simply.
Prabhupada: There is no multiple ways. That is...
Dr. Patel: There may be any number of ways, but I feel that there is what greatness of God. That's all.
Prabhupada: That is... We protest. There is no many number. There is only one.
Dr. Patel: That depends on his own way.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: But you must be benevolent to these people, at least to an extent, to the scientists, that all scientists are wrong, are they? All scientists are not gadhas. Some of them are good (Hindi) and some of them evolve into man even.
Prabhupada: But we say... If somebody says that "I have got my own way to understand," he is not scientist.
Dr. Patel: Their own way, a section of humanity's way. Not one man's. Science...
Prabhupada: There cannot be many ways.
Dr. Patel: You see, our sad-darsana. The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaisesikas also wanted, were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. (Hindi) Sad-darsana. Vaisesika is one of the recognized darsanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further.
Prabhupada: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...
Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaisesikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaisesika-sastra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.
Prabhupada: No...
Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science...
Prabhupada: Ravana was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as raksasa.
Dr. Patel: But we are not Ravanas, are we? We are Vaisesikas.
Prabhupada: No, anyone.
Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaisesika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaisesika scientists.
Prabhupada: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals.
Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta.
Prabhupada: That we don't say. Krsna says, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15].
Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not...
Prabhupada: These rascals. All these rascals.
Dr. Patel: Those who are not in search of Krsna.
Prabhupada: One who has not understood Krsna, they are all mayayapahrta-jnana. He may be Vaisesika, kanada, paramanuvada, mayavada. There are so... I know these.
Dr. Patel: Mayavada and these are all...
Prabhupada: They different, different philosophies.
Dr. Patel: Vaisesika is one of the six sciences, just like...
Prabhupada: No, mayavada is also one of them.
Dr. Patel: Mayavada does not belong to one of the six sciences, do they?
Prabhupada: Yes. Kanada, Gautama, Astavakra, then nastika Kapila. There are so many.
Yasomatinandana: Patanjali.
Prabhupada: Patanjali, yes.
Dr. Patel: Patanjali yoga is also... He said, isvarah pari danaiva. (?) Doesn't he say in the raja-yoga sutra that...
Prabhupada: He is suggesting, but he has no clear idea.
Dr. Patel: He definitely has said in thirty-fourth sutra, isvarah pari danaiva: "If you can't vacate your mind, put God inside." isvarah pari danaiva.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. Holiday Inn Hotel? [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...accept God. But if they do accept God, then none of their activity shows it. They're constantly trying to disprove God.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Indian man (2): Srila Prabhupada? This boy wants to go in gurukula school.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Jayapataka: In your prayer we say, pascatya-desa-tarine. But now don't you think we could say "visva"? (Prabhupada chuckles) I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world.
Prabhupada: I say that because my Guru Maharaja appointed me for that purpose. [break]
Jayapataka: There was a group of reporters who went to see the district magistrate, and they were asking him, taking interview about so many different things. So finally they kept asking about ISKCON because of our Mayapura center. So he said, "Well, I can't say anything about that. I can't say..." Finally one reporter asked another very direct question about their staying here, this, that. And he said, "I have order from Indira Gandhi that the officers, that matha gamrami na.(?) No one, officer, should worry about ISKCON. You just do your own thing. So I can say nothing about them. I have got no authority to say anything about them. We've got this order from Indira Gandhi." Then the reporter said, "Oh, we can print that?" He said, "Please don't print that. Otherwise I will lose my job." So when the local Congress people heard that, they were very happy, our friends. So I think your visit did a great benefit.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Jayapataka: I brought the letter that the district magistrate gave, recommending...
Prabhupada: I think, therefore, they are giving this concession, two years.
Jayapataka: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: [break] ...said that "Don't bother about ISKCON."
Jayapataka: Yes. In Bengali they were talking, matha gamrami na.(?)
Prabhupada: [break] ...you said somebody is coming?
Giriraja: Oh, the Maharaja of Udaipur.
Prabhupada: Ah. So?
Giriraja: I have to call him at nine o'clock and ask him to come earlier.
Prabhupada: No. You have already appointed time, you said.
Giriraja: No, he suggested eleven, and I said I would ask you and ring him back at nine.
Prabhupada: So the interview, you suggested or he suggested?
Giriraja: Mr....
Prabhupada: Udaipur.
Giriraja: He suggested. We suggested having a program at his house. So then he suggested that he wanted to meet you.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Jayapataka: [break]...now all the Caitanya-caritamrtas are printed.
Prabhupada: You have got all?
Jayapataka: No. I only have first, Adi-lila.
Prabhupada: So, you haven't got here? No? So they want book. So they are not dispatching Caitanya-caritamrta?
Gopala Krsna: They haven't dispatched latter volumes. They've done the first few but not the new ones which have come. But he is sending some for your room, to have a complete set in each of your rooms.
Prabhupada: No, no. It should be exhibited in Mayapura, especially.
Jayapataka: It would be nice to have a big book display, I think.
Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately ask them to dispatch to Mayapura all books for demonstration. That is the main item, and they have not sent in Mayapura? Caitanya?
Giriraja: Well, other than the Adi-lila, the later volumes only came within about a few days ago.
Prabhupada: No, no. In mayapura all the books should be displayed.
Gopala Krsna: Okay. We'll get a complete set for display also.
Prabhupada: Caitanya-caritamrta especially, it should be displayed in Mayapura. Immediately ask to send to Mayapura. And whatever books you have got already, you send them immediately. You select what books you want. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].
Gopala Krsna: [break]...from Hong Kong yesterday, and there's one Chinese producer who's making a Chinese movie and he wants our devotees to be in it for some time.
Prabhupada: To make some money out of all...
Gopala Krsna: It shows how a girl is going to different spiritual gurus for guidance. So they are sending the script first for approval.
Prabhupada: All right.
Gopala Krsna: They're going to show how Vaisnavas live.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Gopala Krsna: Devananda feels that will give us a lot of publicity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they paid good money.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they went in some movies. They got two, three thousand dollars. [break] ...buy kilos when they're that big. So many of them.
Prabhupada: That's nice. That will keep the water clean.
Jayapataka: Yes.
Prabhupada: But be careful that these rascals may not come and throw out(?), the Mohammedans.
Jayapataka: [break] ... is growing on the water. And in the hot days they go in there.
Prabhupada: No. That should be cleaned away.
Jayapataka: Taken off.
Prabhupada: Yes. You can eat it, kalmisan(?). It is very nice.
Jayapataka: Yes. We eat that. We shouldn't let it grow in the pukkur? It's growing in one little corner of the pukkur.
Prabhupada: So that should be cleansed and taken, and the sak can be eaten. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 18, 1975, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
Wednesday, April 28, 2010
"Become A Tree At University"
San Francisco, July 16, 1975
listen
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Dharmadhyaksa: ...Srila Prabhupada, more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. In the modern textbooks of psychology you find more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings.
Prabhupada: Why?
Dharmadhyaksa: Because they feel that they can study the behavior of rats and pigeons very easily, much more easily than a human being. They can manipulate them. And then they extrapolate from their data on the rats and pigeons as to what human behavior is.
Prabhupada: So, but they say that except man, there is no soul?
Jayatirtha: But now they say that no one has a soul.
Dharmadhyaksa: No, the modern psychological definition is that man is a flesh and blood organism and that you can know man by studying his bodily processes.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?
Dharmadhyaksa: That is a problem.
Prabhupada: Then it is foolishness.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, definitely.
Bahulasva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.
Prabhupada: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.
Bahulasva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.
Brahmananda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?
Bahulasva: Should have homosex.
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.
Jayatirtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?
Prabhupada: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?
Bahulasva: No.
Prabhupada: Then why they find difference in having soul?
Brahmananda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal.
Bahulasva: Actually psyche means soul.
Prabhupada: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. [break] ...keeping building department different.
Jayatirtha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...their opinion about birth, death?
Bahulasva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished.
Prabhupada: So why again body comes?
Bahulasva: What body is that, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come.
Dharmadhyaksa: That is the genes. Before a body dies, it produces some sperm or something and this by-product, and in this by-product there is the life principle, and it is transmitted just like a seed. So the body produces some seeds, and in the genes, in the genetic code, there is a program, and by chance a new being comes into existence.
Prabhupada: Again chance.
Bahulasva: This has become a very popular subject, psychology. About 80% of the students take a class in this. And they took a survey, and the reason most students take this class is to find out more about who they are themself. So it is the closest thing in the west to self-realization.
Jayatirtha: They've found out that "I am no better than the animal"? That's the conclusion?
Dharmadhyaksa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal.
Bahulasva: Bhagavad-gita gives the best psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: How to control the mind to uplift the self.
Prabhupada: [break] So why the dogs cannot construct such building? [break] ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all."
Prabhupada: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. [break] ...parataram nanyat. That is statement of Bhagavad-gita: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God?
Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed.
Prabhupada: Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Paramah, paramah means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Krsna. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Krsna. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so-called university professors.
Bahulasva: In this tower they had to put glass so the students wouldn't jump out. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Ohh! Just see.
Yadubara: In 1963 they had... I think they put these things up, but so many people were committing suicide by jumping.
Prabhupada: Why they were committing suicide?
Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed.
Dharmadhyaksa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.
Prabhupada: Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah: [SB 7.5.31] "Blind man is leading other blind men."
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, when the jiva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?
Prabhupada: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.
Dharmadhyaksa: So when the jiva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?
Prabhupada: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems.
Prabhupada: What do they define about transcendence?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, actually they give all the characteristics of transcendence that are found in the Bhagavad-gita but without saying that man is a spirit soul and without talking about Krsna. They believe man should overcome duality, should be beyond attachment, should work for a higher goal in life, things like this, all the characteristics that Krsna gives but without Krsna.
Bahulasva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, they must. What is this department? [break] ...cial science.
Bahulasva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society.
Prabhupada: And fall down from the tower? (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is part of the study, Srila Prabhupada. It's called alienation, why people are alienated.
Prabhupada: Now it is very peaceful, fall down and finish. That's all. Suicide.
Dharmadhyaksa: The reason they say that people are committing suicide is there is not enough meaning in life, and there's not enough meaning in life because the capitalists are exploiting all the people and making people work very, very hard.
Prabhupada: But they have meaning, life. You have no meaning, but they have meaning. Some section have meaning. They are accusing capitalist. So they have meaning. Why you say there is no meaning? You have no meaning. You have no money -- you have no meaning. (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is their feeling, that if everyone had equal...
Prabhupada: No, therefore you cannot say life has no meaning. You have no meaning, but others may have. You cannot say, generalization, that life has no meaning.
Bahulasva: We can say your life has no meaning.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are unfortunate. You have no meaning. We have meaning. We are going back to home, back to Godhead.
Dharmadhyaksa: Jaya. Another reason they feel very depressed is that they feel powerless, that they have no power to control their destiny, that all the big social forces, all the big social powers, they're controlling their lives, and...
Prabhupada: Then why you are so much proud of having all the knowledge? Then you admit that you are a rascal. You have no... You are dependent, and you are trying to be independent. That is not being possible, therefore you are rascal. Your education has no meaning because you are dependent and you are trying to be independent.
Dharmadhyaksa: Most professors nowadays, they will admit that they have no absolute knowledge, that everything they know is relative and that there might be something much better than what they are teaching.
Prabhupada: There might... There is. But you rascal, you do not take it. That is your fault. There is, not "There might be." Here is Bhagavad-gita. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita it is said, etat jnanam: "This is knowledge, and all other things, they are not knowledge." Etat jnanam.
Bahulasva: Anything other than this is ignorance?
Prabhupada: Ignorance.
Citsukhananda: Your teachings, the teachings of Bhagavad-gita as it is, had not come here before. So these people are misled. So just recently you have presented. So in a sense it is not their fault because they have had not the chance to hear Bhagavad-gita as it is. They have got many Bhagavad-gita, but they were not able to understand. But now by your grace, maybe we'll see the reaction in a few years. Maybe all this will change.
Prabhupada: Do they say like that or you are saying?
Citsukhananda: Well, some people have said. Not widely yet. The work must go on. There's much to go. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: Bacteriology, study of germs. So Srila Prabhupada, the reason one person gets a disease from a germ and another person doesn't get a disease, it is karma?
Prabhupada: No, that is infection. If you are weak, you are infected. That is the science. One who is not weak, he does not become infected. Just like in your country there are so many liquor shop, but you are not interested. So it is like that.
Dharmadhyaksa: We have a little strength through your divine grace.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are so many slaughterhouses, but we are not infected. So it is the strength that saves one man from infection. [break] ...learned scholars, they are astonished that I have hypnotized. Otherwise how it is possible? What that Judah's, "charis"...?
Brahmananda: Charismatic.
Prabhupada: Charismatic.
Bahulasva: They say that we're becoming brainwashed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Why you cannot do? It is brainwash, yes, all dirty things you are...
Bahulasva: Are being cleansed.
Nara-narayana: Brainwashed and also heartwashed.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ceto-darpana-mar... That is our process, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the mirror of heart. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. This is our process, cleansing. Tato rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas [SB 1.2.19]. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: In modern psychology, Srila Prabhupada, only until very recently, they did not even want to talk about consciousness. There was no mention of consciousness because it was not a scientific thing that they could observe.
Prabhupada: Scientific... It is the most crude thing. Everyone knows. Even the animal, even the ant, they have got consciousness.
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, it embarrassed them that they know everyone has consciousness but there was no way they could measure it or, according to gross science, get some factual information about it. So it embarrassed them so much, they tried to avoid the subject, hush it up, not speak about it.
Prabhupada: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. [break] ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department?
Dharmadhyaksa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude."
Prabhupada: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is actually... The whole goal of modern psychology is to make people adjust to the fact that they must stay in this material world and that if you have some desire to leave the material world, they will tell you you are crazy. "No, no. Now you must adjust more again to the material condition."
Bahulasva: They teach you to accept the frustrations of life.
Prabhupada: Why frustration? You are big, big scientist. You cannot solve?
Dharmadhyaksa: They cannot solve because they have the same problems.
Prabhupada: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duhkha-nivrtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Krsna: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanu... [Bg. 13.9]. These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.
Bahulasva: They do that also. They have a fad now. It's called streakers.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore their punishment is to become tree, to cat, dog, like that. That they cannot explain, why there is cat life, dog life, human life, rich(?) life. That they cannot do. All big questions, they have avoided. And they remain perpetually a rascal. That is their education. Mudha, Krsna says, mudha, naradhama: "Lowest of the mankind." Human life was meant for real education. They remain the same rascal and dies very happily. Mudhas. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: In the pictures of the acaryas sometimes yourself and Bhaktisiddhanta has their left hand touching the ground. Is there any meaning to that?
Prabhupada: Touching?
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes. There's a picture, and your hand is like this.
Prabhupada: No. [break]
Bahulasva: Many students are here during the day. They come and set up the Deities and then do kirtana and give out prasadam.
Prabhupada: Do that. Continue that. They will be infected.
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Infect them.
Bahulasva: Their brains will be washed. We will have big success with this new temple here, Srila Prabhupada. Many of these students will come and visit us. People like us very much here, at least the students.
Prabhupada: That is very good. Students are the future hope, young students.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we should teach them to live very simply, to give up all of this complexity that is causing them so much agitation and depression and just live very simply, chant Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is greatest common factor. Whatever he may be, if he is induced to chant, that is very good, and take prasadam. [break] ...canvas(?) pasted there? Granada? Granada.
Bahulasva: This is a hotel.
Prabhupada: Hotel. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco
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Dharmadhyaksa: ...Srila Prabhupada, more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings. In the modern textbooks of psychology you find more pictures of rats and pigeons than human beings.
Prabhupada: Why?
Dharmadhyaksa: Because they feel that they can study the behavior of rats and pigeons very easily, much more easily than a human being. They can manipulate them. And then they extrapolate from their data on the rats and pigeons as to what human behavior is.
Prabhupada: So, but they say that except man, there is no soul?
Jayatirtha: But now they say that no one has a soul.
Dharmadhyaksa: No, the modern psychological definition is that man is a flesh and blood organism and that you can know man by studying his bodily processes.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you give life to the flesh and blood?
Dharmadhyaksa: That is a problem.
Prabhupada: Then it is foolishness.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, definitely.
Bahulasva: In California they have passed a law that homosexuality is legal. So the psychologists say that they see the dogs and the hogs and monkeys having homosex relationships, so on that grounds, they say, it should be legal.
Prabhupada: They have got homosex? Dogs, hogs, I don't think.
Bahulasva: Yeah, dogs, they say. We were preaching in this one convention that the dogs are also fighting. So therefore fighting and murder should be legal too because the dogs do that also.
Brahmananda: Their argument was because the dogs have homosex, therefore the man should have...?
Bahulasva: Should have homosex.
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes, if an animal does it, then a human being should have the same right to do it also.
Jayatirtha: Then they can pass stool in the street also?
Prabhupada: Then what is the difference between man and animal? They do not find any difference?
Bahulasva: No.
Prabhupada: Then why they find difference in having soul?
Brahmananda: Well, that is the Christian. But these modern psychologists, they don't even think that the human being has soul. That he's the same as the animal.
Bahulasva: Actually psyche means soul.
Prabhupada: Psyche means mental activities, thinking, feeling, and willing. [break] ...keeping building department different.
Jayatirtha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...their opinion about birth, death?
Bahulasva: They think that birth is the beginning of the body and that when death comes everything is finished.
Prabhupada: So why again body comes?
Bahulasva: What body is that, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Just like you take fruits from the tree. Again fruits come.
Dharmadhyaksa: That is the genes. Before a body dies, it produces some sperm or something and this by-product, and in this by-product there is the life principle, and it is transmitted just like a seed. So the body produces some seeds, and in the genes, in the genetic code, there is a program, and by chance a new being comes into existence.
Prabhupada: Again chance.
Bahulasva: This has become a very popular subject, psychology. About 80% of the students take a class in this. And they took a survey, and the reason most students take this class is to find out more about who they are themself. So it is the closest thing in the west to self-realization.
Jayatirtha: They've found out that "I am no better than the animal"? That's the conclusion?
Dharmadhyaksa: One school. Then there's another school. They say, "How can you base a theory of human nature on animals?" They do not like this. They are revolting against making man an animal.
Bahulasva: Bhagavad-gita gives the best psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: How to control the mind to uplift the self.
Prabhupada: [break] So why the dogs cannot construct such building? [break] ...psychology? Why they haven't got the same psychology?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, the scientists would say that "We have the same psychology. We have a material psychology, the dog has a material psychology, but we're just a little more advanced, that's all."
Prabhupada: So similarly, there may be others who are still advanced. Therefore the most advanced is God. This should be the psychology. As we see there is difference between dogs and hogs and man, so go on. Search out. So when you find out the most intelligent person, then he is God. [break] ...parataram nanyat. That is statement of Bhagavad-gita: "No more intelligent. Here, ultimate. I am God." So from psychological point of view how they can deny God?
Yadubara: No one is teaching that in this big university. Therefore the students are very discouraged, depressed.
Prabhupada: Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Paramah, paramah means the Supreme. Our definition of God is that supreme in every respect. What man can do, the dog cannot do. What the dog can do, the cat cannot do. What the cat can do, the rat cannot do. So we see so many differences. Therefore there must be others who are more intelligent than man. That is demigod. And there must be others most intelligent than the demigods. In this way when you come to the final, that is Krsna. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Go on finding out more, more, more. When you come to the final, that is God or Krsna. So we take instruction from Him. Therefore we are better than the so-called university professors.
Bahulasva: In this tower they had to put glass so the students wouldn't jump out. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Ohh! Just see.
Yadubara: In 1963 they had... I think they put these things up, but so many people were committing suicide by jumping.
Prabhupada: Why they were committing suicide?
Yadubara: Because everyone was very depressed. This is supposed to be enlightenment, a place of knowledge. But everyone was very depressed.
Dharmadhyaksa: Being taught that they are the body. I went to a Catholic university and they taught me in psychology, and it was a priest. And they were teaching this, that I am a bodily process. And he never challenged the textbook. So when one thinks he's the body and if he's intelligent, a very depressing thought. Even in the Catholic universities they use these textbooks that teach this materialism.
Prabhupada: Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah: [SB 7.5.31] "Blind man is leading other blind men."
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, when the jiva soul desires to enter the material world, is that an illusory desire?
Prabhupada: Yes. Desire means he wants to enjoy, but he is not enjoyer. When he comes to enjoy, he becomes servant. That is illusion.
Dharmadhyaksa: So when the jiva soul descends into the material world, it is like a hallucination?
Prabhupada: Yes. We get experience daily. In the daytime we have forgotten the night dream, and night dream we forget in this daytime existence. So which is correct? Therefore it is hallucination. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: ...one psychologist who believes man is his body but he talks very much about transcendence. Even the materialists now, they realize that the present condition is very miserable and this false ego is the cause of all problems, so they are seeking some form of transcendence. And many psychologists are talking about transcendence nowadays as the solution to life's problems.
Prabhupada: What do they define about transcendence?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, actually they give all the characteristics of transcendence that are found in the Bhagavad-gita but without saying that man is a spirit soul and without talking about Krsna. They believe man should overcome duality, should be beyond attachment, should work for a higher goal in life, things like this, all the characteristics that Krsna gives but without Krsna.
Bahulasva: It appears that they have taken these things from Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, they must. What is this department? [break] ...cial science.
Bahulasva: How to live in peace. How to live, peaceful society.
Prabhupada: And fall down from the tower? (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is part of the study, Srila Prabhupada. It's called alienation, why people are alienated.
Prabhupada: Now it is very peaceful, fall down and finish. That's all. Suicide.
Dharmadhyaksa: The reason they say that people are committing suicide is there is not enough meaning in life, and there's not enough meaning in life because the capitalists are exploiting all the people and making people work very, very hard.
Prabhupada: But they have meaning, life. You have no meaning, but they have meaning. Some section have meaning. They are accusing capitalist. So they have meaning. Why you say there is no meaning? You have no meaning. You have no money -- you have no meaning. (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is their feeling, that if everyone had equal...
Prabhupada: No, therefore you cannot say life has no meaning. You have no meaning, but others may have. You cannot say, generalization, that life has no meaning.
Bahulasva: We can say your life has no meaning.
Prabhupada: Yes. You are unfortunate. You have no meaning. We have meaning. We are going back to home, back to Godhead.
Dharmadhyaksa: Jaya. Another reason they feel very depressed is that they feel powerless, that they have no power to control their destiny, that all the big social forces, all the big social powers, they're controlling their lives, and...
Prabhupada: Then why you are so much proud of having all the knowledge? Then you admit that you are a rascal. You have no... You are dependent, and you are trying to be independent. That is not being possible, therefore you are rascal. Your education has no meaning because you are dependent and you are trying to be independent.
Dharmadhyaksa: Most professors nowadays, they will admit that they have no absolute knowledge, that everything they know is relative and that there might be something much better than what they are teaching.
Prabhupada: There might... There is. But you rascal, you do not take it. That is your fault. There is, not "There might be." Here is Bhagavad-gita. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita it is said, etat jnanam: "This is knowledge, and all other things, they are not knowledge." Etat jnanam.
Bahulasva: Anything other than this is ignorance?
Prabhupada: Ignorance.
Citsukhananda: Your teachings, the teachings of Bhagavad-gita as it is, had not come here before. So these people are misled. So just recently you have presented. So in a sense it is not their fault because they have had not the chance to hear Bhagavad-gita as it is. They have got many Bhagavad-gita, but they were not able to understand. But now by your grace, maybe we'll see the reaction in a few years. Maybe all this will change.
Prabhupada: Do they say like that or you are saying?
Citsukhananda: Well, some people have said. Not widely yet. The work must go on. There's much to go. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: Bacteriology, study of germs. So Srila Prabhupada, the reason one person gets a disease from a germ and another person doesn't get a disease, it is karma?
Prabhupada: No, that is infection. If you are weak, you are infected. That is the science. One who is not weak, he does not become infected. Just like in your country there are so many liquor shop, but you are not interested. So it is like that.
Dharmadhyaksa: We have a little strength through your divine grace.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are so many slaughterhouses, but we are not infected. So it is the strength that saves one man from infection. [break] ...learned scholars, they are astonished that I have hypnotized. Otherwise how it is possible? What that Judah's, "charis"...?
Brahmananda: Charismatic.
Prabhupada: Charismatic.
Bahulasva: They say that we're becoming brainwashed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Why you cannot do? It is brainwash, yes, all dirty things you are...
Bahulasva: Are being cleansed.
Nara-narayana: Brainwashed and also heartwashed.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ceto-darpana-mar... That is our process, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the mirror of heart. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. This is our process, cleansing. Tato rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas [SB 1.2.19]. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: In modern psychology, Srila Prabhupada, only until very recently, they did not even want to talk about consciousness. There was no mention of consciousness because it was not a scientific thing that they could observe.
Prabhupada: Scientific... It is the most crude thing. Everyone knows. Even the animal, even the ant, they have got consciousness.
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, it embarrassed them that they know everyone has consciousness but there was no way they could measure it or, according to gross science, get some factual information about it. So it embarrassed them so much, they tried to avoid the subject, hush it up, not speak about it.
Prabhupada: That is their disease. When they cannot make any solution, they avoid it. [break] ...touch the real point, that why there is death. Nobody will touch because they cannot make any solution. Why do they not have a department?
Dharmadhyaksa: Nowadays they're actually realizing their error and they're studying death more, trying to prepare people for death more. But the only thing they can tell them is, "Accept it." The only thing they can do is say, "You are going to die. So just accept it with a cheerful attitude."
Prabhupada: But I do not wish to die. Why shall I be cheerful? You rascal, you say, "Become cheerful." (laughter) "Cheerfully, you become hanged." (laughter) The lawyer will say, "Never mind. You have lost the case. Now you cheerfully be hanged." (laughter)
Dharmadhyaksa: That is actually... The whole goal of modern psychology is to make people adjust to the fact that they must stay in this material world and that if you have some desire to leave the material world, they will tell you you are crazy. "No, no. Now you must adjust more again to the material condition."
Bahulasva: They teach you to accept the frustrations of life.
Prabhupada: Why frustration? You are big, big scientist. You cannot solve?
Dharmadhyaksa: They cannot solve because they have the same problems.
Prabhupada: The same logic, "Cheerfully be hanged." That's all. As soon as there is some difficult subject, they give up. And they speculate on some nonsense thing. That's all. This is their education. Education means atyantika-duhkha-nivrtti, the ultimate solution of all unhappiness. That is education, not that after coming to some extent, "No, you can die happily." And what is duhkha, unhappiness? That is presented by Krsna: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanu... [Bg. 13.9]. These are your unhappiness. Try to solve it. And that they are carefully avoiding. They cannot stop death, neither birth, nor old age, nor disease. And during the short period of life, birth and death, they are making big, big buildings, and next time he is becoming one rat within the buildings. (laughter) Nature. You cannot avoid the nature's law. As you cannot avoid death, similarly, nature will give you another body. Become a tree in this university. Stand up for five thousand years. You wanted to be naked. Now nobody will object. You stand here naked.
Bahulasva: They do that also. They have a fad now. It's called streakers.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore their punishment is to become tree, to cat, dog, like that. That they cannot explain, why there is cat life, dog life, human life, rich(?) life. That they cannot do. All big questions, they have avoided. And they remain perpetually a rascal. That is their education. Mudha, Krsna says, mudha, naradhama: "Lowest of the mankind." Human life was meant for real education. They remain the same rascal and dies very happily. Mudhas. [break]
Dharmadhyaksa: In the pictures of the acaryas sometimes yourself and Bhaktisiddhanta has their left hand touching the ground. Is there any meaning to that?
Prabhupada: Touching?
Dharmadhyaksa: Yes. There's a picture, and your hand is like this.
Prabhupada: No. [break]
Bahulasva: Many students are here during the day. They come and set up the Deities and then do kirtana and give out prasadam.
Prabhupada: Do that. Continue that. They will be infected.
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: Infect them.
Bahulasva: Their brains will be washed. We will have big success with this new temple here, Srila Prabhupada. Many of these students will come and visit us. People like us very much here, at least the students.
Prabhupada: That is very good. Students are the future hope, young students.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we should teach them to live very simply, to give up all of this complexity that is causing them so much agitation and depression and just live very simply, chant Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is greatest common factor. Whatever he may be, if he is induced to chant, that is very good, and take prasadam. [break] ...canvas(?) pasted there? Granada? Granada.
Bahulasva: This is a hotel.
Prabhupada: Hotel. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 16, 1975, San Francisco
Tuesday, April 27, 2010
"Aryan Blood--A Misnomer"
Bombay, November 21, 1975
Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.
Prabhupada: Civilization means advance from animal life.
Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.
Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.
Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo.
Prabhupada: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group.
Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...
Prabhupada: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Krsna chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anarya justam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Krsna. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Visnu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato va imani (indistinct) bhutani jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent.
Prabhupada: Hm? We don't say.
Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it.
Prabhupada: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected.
Dr. Patel: Hm?
Prabhupada: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it.
Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known.
Prabhupada: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans.
Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumi.
Prabhupada: Yes. Patala bhumi means just opposite the eastern hemisphere.
Yasomati-nandana: Just opposite the?
Prabhupada: Eastern hemisphere.
Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break]
Yasomati-nandana: ...that Ravana's brother, Mahiravana, was in...
Prabhupada: Brazil.
Yasomati-nandana: Brazil?
Prabhupada: Yes. From the description it appears.
Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of...
Prabhupada: By Suranga.(?)
Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia.
Prabhupada: Underground.
Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past.
Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way.
Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on.
Prabhupada: Islam is also...
Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism.
Brahmananda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is right.
Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa.
Prabhupada: Today the whole world is dominated by demons.
Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons.
Prabhupada: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one...
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brahmana can be generated to Ravana state.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Aryan culture.
yasya hi yad laksanam
proktam varnabhivyanjakam
yady anyatrapi drsyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiset
[SB 7.11.35]
That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Narada. Yady anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brahmana, they are brahmana. This is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally.
Prabhupada: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin.
Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing.
Dr. Patel: All the Aryans have got B blood group in majority of them.
Prabhupada: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner.
Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else.
Prabhupada: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization.
Dr. Patel: Atma-nistha and isvara-nistha.
Prabhupada: Hm. And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal.
Dr. Patel: Kunape is a dead body. Kunape tri-dhatuke.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. This is going on, loka-ranjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. Na te vidu svartha-gati hi visnu durasay ye bahir-artha-maninah. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahih. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-maninah. These rascals are bahir-artha-maninah, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-maninah. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die.
Prabhupada: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without... Asango 'yam purusah. "The soul has nothing to do with this material world."
Dr. Patel: That's right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body?
Prabhupada: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless.
Dr. Patel: It dies.
Prabhupada: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot...
Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen...
Prabhupada: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body.
Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill...
Prabhupada: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asango 'yam purusah. And that is self-realization.
Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the lila of...
Prabhupada: No lila. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupada: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his lila. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupada: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not lila. Nobody says, "Let me play this lila and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakrti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakrti." Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah.
Dr. Patel: Prakrtir me astadha. It is God's prakrti.
Prabhupada: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. That he does not know. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netrena. Karmana daiva netrena jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing.
Prabhupada: No, no. Sastra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the sastra. Sastra-caksusat. "Your eyes should be the sastra, not conjecture." Sastra says, karanam guna-sango 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The sastra-caksusat: karanam guna-sango 'sya. Sastra says, Krsna says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that.
Dr. Patel: Karanam ganga.
Prabhupada: Karanam. Karanam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can... By analysis, you can say. So therefore sastra-caksusat. Sastra says, "You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there." That is sastra, not conjecture. You don't diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the sastra the symptoms are there, analytical, that "This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this." That is sastra, not conjecture. Karana guna-sango 'sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that "This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature." In the smrti-sastra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different papa. [break]
Brahmananda: ...culture should be designed to cure the material disease.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Aryan culture. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Aryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that's all, jumping, very busy. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That's all. Immediately the verdict: "Oh, he does not know anything. He's as good." So? Everything is going nice?
Mahamsa: Yes, Prabhupada. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was... He had that Sunday -- that is tomorrow -- he was fixed on going to Sai Baba's conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vrndavana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased and he said, "Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba's program and come to your program."
Devotee: Jaya. (laughter)
Gopala Krsna: That's the governor of Karnataka?
Mahamsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajastan previously.
Prabhupada: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard.
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Aksayananda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good.
Mahamsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees' worth of books, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: In Bangalore?
Mahamsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. Everyone, everyone is buying. (Prabhupada laughs)
Gopala Krsna: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gopala Krsna: We can get it printed in India now.
Prabhupada: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin's theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very.
Mahamsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart sankirtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Why?
Mahamsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.
Prabhupada: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahamsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahamsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kirtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kirtana together.
Prabhupada: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahaprabhu's prediction, prthivite ache yata nagaradi.
Mahamsa: Grama, yes.
Prabhupada: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.
Mahamsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day.
Prabhupada: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it.
Mahamsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax.
Prabhupada: They want money, that's all.
Mahamsa: So they want to encourage.
Gopala Krsna: And now they're bringing prohibition.
Mahamsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now.
Prabhupada: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. If the government simply prohibits these four things -- meat-eating, and drinking, gambling, and illicit sex -- the whole country will change immediately.
Mahamsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities.
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Mahamsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities.
Gopala Krsna: Did he reply?
Mahamsa: No, he never replied.
Prabhupada: This animal civilization, go-kharah, is going as civilization -- drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling.
Yasomati-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either.
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, drinking.
Prabhupada: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes.
Mahamsa: Yes. Molasses.
Prabhupada: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Krsna. And then wine, and they must be sold.
Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then.
Prabhupada: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand.
Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of...
Prabhupada: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So we can return. [break] ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson.
Devotee (2): What is that?
Prabhupada: Kejiya? Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Yan-maithunadi grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break]
Mahamsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.
Prabhupada: So your invested money is realized?
Mahamsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.
Prabhupada: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.
Mahamsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam daily. So they are coming for kirtana?
Mahamsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...
Prabhupada: Organize.
Mahamsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits.
Prabhupada: Then how we are going to organize?
Mahamsa: Well, Hamsaduta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.
Prabhupada: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.
Mahamsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.
Prabhupada: Train them, train them.
Gopala Krsna: To give a manager right way, Hamsaduta said.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Gopala Krsna: He can give a manager for the farm.
Mahamsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.
Prabhupada: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasadam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasadam? Every day there must be huge prasadam distribution.
Mahamsa: Many people?
Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasada distribution. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...thing produced, that should be used as prasadam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Krsna. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?
Mahamsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fine.
Mahamsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers.
Prabhupada: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasadam and chant.
Mahamsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm.
Prabhupada: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasadam and chant Hare Krsna. [break] ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth.
Devotee (2): Oh, yes.
Mahamsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?
Mahamsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter.
Giriraja: For two dhotis you'd need fifteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Fifty?
Giriraja: Fifteen.
Prabhupada: Fifteen. Yes.
Giriraja: For the good quality.
Prabhupada: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?
Prabhupada: Banana leaf.
Harikesa: Cooking utensils.
Brahmananda: Clay cups.
Prabhupada: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] ...temple. Huh?
Mahamsa: The structure is over, Prabhupada. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don't know if we'll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] ...fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghosa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that "You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put." So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees' worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting.
Prabhupada: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter)
Mahamsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutananda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Krsna is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying.
Gopala Krsna: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing.
Mahamsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,2500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it's an enclosed hall, so we can't fit in more people. It's packed up.
Gopala Krsna: It's a lot bigger than it was three months ago?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages.
Prabhupada: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoda Bhave.
Mahamsa: A businessman?
Giriraja: Bajaj.
Prabhupada: Bajaj, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] They are quite friendly with us. There is one (indistinct) Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book... There was a picture with devotees doing kirtana in the Dharma-prakash.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr....
Mahamsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao.
Prabhupada: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break]
Mahamsa: Prabhupada, how can we cooperate with them?
Prabhupada: With (indistinct)?
Mahamsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect.
Prabhupada: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gita, then there is cooperation.
Mahamsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gita, but he never mentioned the name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Mahamsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that "We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them." He wants to reject Krsna's authority.
Prabhupada: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Mayavadis, they know that if they accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then their Mayavadi philosophy is finished.
Mahamsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna asrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now, he is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath.
Prabhupada: Oh, Ranganath, yes.
Mahamsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Krsna?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people?
Prabhupada: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Jaya.
Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad-gita in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gita and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Krsna is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gita in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?"
Mahamsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Sankaracarya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Sankaracarya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Sankaracarya, he didn't say anything, but he had one pandita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So...
Prabhupada: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)
Mahamsa: So first of all Acyutananda... I wasn't there, but Acyutananda and Yasodananda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharman... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Krsna. And then it went on, who is Krsna. And then finally Acyutananda and Yasodananda were quoting so many slokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every sloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said -- he could not fight back -- so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our slokas.
Prabhupada: This is Krsna's mercy.
Mahamsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit slokas from so many different scriptures.
Prabhupada: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Krsna movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Mahamsa: [break] Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. "Oh, yes, Hare Krsna. You all do bhajan..." They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really, they were shocked. They said, "Oh, we never knew you were doing so much." And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kirtana group, bhajan mandali.
Prabhupada: [break] What did he speak?
Mahamsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. Every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is "Krsna means black. Black means unknown. Therefore Krsna is unknown. Krsna is unknown. We cannot know Krsna."
Prabhupada: And what about others' version who knows Krsna? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu or all the acaryas? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay
Dr. Patel: Sir, let us first describe what is civilization.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dr. Patel: Let us, I mean, think about what is first civilization.
Prabhupada: Civilization means advance from animal life.
Dr. Patel: That is the difference between other civilizations and Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: Huh? So what is that difference, that I am asking.
Dr. Patel: You are advanced from animal life to a higher life, spiritual life. That is Vedic civilization.
Prabhupada: That is I am asking. Civilization means not animal. Man, human being, must not be animal. This is the basic principle of civilization.
Dr. Patel: Primary all are animals. They have to advance from animal life to further up. That is the civilization as you say.
Prabhupada: Yes, that I say. So not to remain animal.
Dr. Patel: Yes, not to have status quo.
Prabhupada: Still it is going on. The junglis, they are not called civilized. They are as good as animals. In India we say jungli he, jungli. And others say uncivilized. So Aryan, Aryan means the most civilized group.
Dr. Patel: But presently, sir, the Aryan race are spread the world over.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Right from... Aryans are spread the world over right from South America to...
Prabhupada: They were, they were belonging to the Aryan family. The Europeans, they were also Aryan family, and Indians, the Arabians, Persians, they were all Aryan family. And the Americans they also migrated from Europe. They are also Aryans. But that is familywise. But actually Aryan means one who is advanced in civilization. That is Aryan. Therefore when Krsna chastised Arjuna, He addressed him, "non-Aryan." "You are not talking like Aryan." Anarya justam. "You are talking like non-Aryan." (aside:) Hare Krsna. So Aryan means advanced. The first-class civilized men are the Aryans. So that standard of Aryan civilization is to understand God, Visnu, and go back to. This is perfectional. Yato va imani (indistinct) bhutani jayante. To understand it. And again return back to Him. The modern civilization, they are completely unaware of God, neither they know it that going back to home, back to Godhead, is perfection of civilization. This is the defect.
Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that the Aryan civilization, cradle of Aryan civilization near the North Pole, is somewhere in Russia. From there they started transmigrating. People went to Europe, from there to America, then south down to Iran, and then to India and all that. When they have such extreme cold they were able to civilize themselves to that extent.
Prabhupada: Hm? We don't say.
Dr. Patel: The Eskimos are not able to do it.
Prabhupada: No. Civilization means they must live in a nice place like India. That is civilization. The America in those days, they were neglecting. Nobody was living there. Gradually they advanced. Otherwise these tracts of land were rejected.
Dr. Patel: Hm?
Prabhupada: These tracts of land, North America, that was rejected by the Aryans. They knew it.
Dr. Patel: They say the Mexico was known.
Prabhupada: Mexico, they are less civilized. They are not Aryans. They are not Aryans.
Dr. Patel: That is patala bhumi.
Prabhupada: Yes. Patala bhumi means just opposite the eastern hemisphere.
Yasomati-nandana: Just opposite the?
Prabhupada: Eastern hemisphere.
Dr. Patel: But they had, sir, a very big Inca civilization in southern part of the American, I mean, continent, South America, that had been ransacked by these fellows, Spaniards. [break]
Yasomati-nandana: ...that Ravana's brother, Mahiravana, was in...
Prabhupada: Brazil.
Yasomati-nandana: Brazil?
Prabhupada: Yes. From the description it appears.
Dr. Patel: They could have gone via the Berings, on other side of...
Prabhupada: By Suranga.(?)
Dr. Patel: Bering, Bering, just near on the eastern end of Russia.
Prabhupada: Underground.
Dr. Patel: There is just next, I mean, Alaska and Bering, opposite each other. They could have gone by that place to American continent in past.
Devotee: That's what the scientists say. They are saying that they migrated by the northern way.
Dr. Patel: Yes. That is the only way. Otherwise seas are very big waves. The small crafts could not travel on that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...proposition is not migrating. That is due to increase of population. The civilization means the culture. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: [break] ...really spread toward the east in Indonesia and Indochina, all those places, which were again overtaken by Islam later on.
Prabhupada: Islam is also...
Dr. Patel: History, it has spread. Even Bali Islands today are practicing Hinduism.
Brahmananda: Aryan means change in consciousness to God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: This means all over the world there can be an Aryan culture.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is right.
Dr. Patel: Today the world is dominated by Aryans, all over practically. Except in Central Africa.
Prabhupada: Today the whole world is dominated by demons.
Dr. Patel: Today. The Aryans have become demons.
Prabhupada: Yes. That... Anyone can become demon. A demon can become Aryan, and Aryan can become demon by culture. That is one...
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. A brahmana can be generated to Ravana state.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Aryan culture.
yasya hi yad laksanam
proktam varnabhivyanjakam
yady anyatrapi drsyeta
tat tenaiva vinirdiset
[SB 7.11.35]
That who is Aryan? These are the symptoms of Aryan. If the symptoms are found in Mexico, they are Aryan. That is verdict of Narada. Yady anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset [SB 7.11.35]. We are doing that. They are coming from mleccha family, but they have practiced to become brahmana, they are brahmana. This is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: But they are Aryans originally.
Prabhupada: No, no. This you are calculating from the skin.
Dr. Patel: No, no skin. From the blood group. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Blood or skin, the same thing. The same thing. The same thing.
Dr. Patel: All the Aryans have got B blood group in majority of them.
Prabhupada: Skin comes from the blood. You know better than..., medical practitioner.
Dr. Patel: Skin is nourished by blood. It comes from something else.
Prabhupada: So that is not the way. When there is symptoms... The symptom is... First symptom is that he must know that he is not body, and he must know what is God. Then it is Aryan civilization.
Dr. Patel: Atma-nistha and isvara-nistha.
Prabhupada: Hm. And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That is animal.
Dr. Patel: Kunape is a dead body. Kunape tri-dhatuke.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is dead. What is this body? It is already dead. Just like motorcar. It is dead lump of matter. So long the driver is, it is moving. Similarly, the body is dead. So without understanding of spiritual identification, simply decorating this body means apranasya hi dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. This is going on, loka-ranjanam, just to captivate some foolish person that they are advanced in civilization. What is that civilization? But we can understand, this civilization and the dog, there is no difference. There is no difference.
Dr. Patel: Now there will be no difference because there is just like dogs, the society, no marriages and all those... We talked yesterday. There are facts. That is going on everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. Na te vidu svartha-gati hi visnu durasay ye bahir-artha-maninah. Bahir-artha, bodily concept, this is bahih. And antar is the soul. So they are bahir-artha-maninah. These rascals are bahir-artha-maninah, simply studying this body externally, bahir-artha-maninah. Very nice words, selected words, are used in Bhagavata.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, this body and the soul are complimentary. If there is no body, soul cannot reside anywhere. And if there is no soul, body will die.
Prabhupada: No. That is another side of bodily conception. Soul is without... Asango 'yam purusah. "The soul has nothing to do with this material world."
Dr. Patel: That's right. You are absolutely right, sir. But if there is no soul in the body, what will happen to the body?
Prabhupada: No, no. If there is no soul in the body, then body is useless.
Dr. Patel: It dies.
Prabhupada: That's all. That we are pointing out, that without soul, this body has no meaning. It is a lump of matter. But you are saying that without this lump of matter, the soul cannot...
Dr. Patel: No, no. I don't say that. But so far as the body is living, soul has got to be there.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: If there is no soul inside, what will happen...
Prabhupada: No, no. Body requires the soul for movement, but soul does not require the body.
Dr. Patel: Soul creates a body to fulfill...
Prabhupada: No, no. Soul creates in this sense: by his karma he has to accept, accept a certain type of body. But originally he doesn't require this material world. Asango 'yam purusah. And that is self-realization.
Dr. Patel: The production of the body in the cosmos is the lila of...
Prabhupada: No lila. It is compulsory.
Dr. Patel: Why compulsory?
Prabhupada: Just like if a man is beaten with shoes, that is not his lila. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: What it is?
Prabhupada: It is force, that "You must be beaten with shoes." That is not lila. Nobody says, "Let me play this lila and you beat me with shoes." (laughter) No sane man will do that. When a man is punished, that is by force, superior force. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. This is force, prakrti, nature's. You cannot say that "I don't care for the prakrti." Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah.
Dr. Patel: Prakrtir me astadha. It is God's prakrti.
Prabhupada: Yes. The matter, material nature, is forced upon him. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. He is accepting different bodies according to the contamination of material nature. Karanam guna-sango 'sya. That he does not know. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. He does not know that there is a superior karta, daiva netrena. Karmana daiva netrena jantu deha upapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. So he is forced to accept a certain kind of body by the material nature. That he does not know. This is non-Aryan. Like dog. He does not know that why he has got this dog's body. He simply has learned how to bark, that's all.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I have my doubts. How can we know that he is not knowing or knowing? It is our conjecture that he is not knowing.
Prabhupada: No, no. Sastra says. You conjecture, but we don't conjecture. We simply repeat what is said in the sastra. Sastra-caksusat. "Your eyes should be the sastra, not conjecture." Sastra says, karanam guna-sango 'sya. He has become a dog on account of his infection with certain type of material qualities. That is our eyes. We don't conjecture anything. It is naturally may be inquired that "Why one living entity has got this body of a dog and why one living entity has got the body of King Indra?" The sastra-caksusat: karanam guna-sango 'sya. Sastra says, Krsna says. So it is, reason is, that he has infected the certain type of material modes of nature; therefore he has got. It is very easy. As you, medical man, you know how the disease has come, you have infected the disease. It is that.
Dr. Patel: Karanam ganga.
Prabhupada: Karanam. Karanam, yes. I am layman. I cannot say why I have got this fever. You can... By analysis, you can say. So therefore sastra-caksusat. Sastra says, "You analyze his blood, and if these symptoms are there, therefore this disease is there." That is sastra, not conjecture. You don't diagnose by simply imagining. No. That is not scientific treatment. You analyze blood, stool and this, and find out what is the germ. Then you analyze. And in the sastra the symptoms are there, analytical, that "This kind of disease, the symptoms will be this, this, this, this." That is sastra, not conjecture. Karana guna-sango 'sya, very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that "This rascal has infected this body on account of his particular connection with the modes of material nature." In the smrti-sastra it is stated how one gets tuberculosis, how one gets this disease, that disease, different papa. [break]
Brahmananda: ...culture should be designed to cure the material disease.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Aryan culture. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Aryan culture. But they do not know what is punar janma, how we can stop this birth and death, nothing of the sort. Simply dogs and cats, that's all, jumping, very busy. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. That's all. Immediately the verdict: "Oh, he does not know anything. He's as good." So? Everything is going nice?
Mahamsa: Yes, Prabhupada. I just came from Bangalore last night. They are having a very big program there and a lot of publicity from the newspapers with pictures and nice articles, big articles on the front page of the newspapers there. And tomorrow the governor is coming as the chief guest for the program. He was... He had that Sunday -- that is tomorrow -- he was fixed on going to Sai Baba's conference, but when we went to see him he was very pleased because he had gone to our Vrndavana temple just ten days back, so he was very much enthused with our activities and he liked the temple very much. So he was very pleased and he said, "Yes, I will cancel Sai Baba's program and come to your program."
Devotee: Jaya. (laughter)
Gopala Krsna: That's the governor of Karnataka?
Mahamsa: Yes. He was the chief minister of Rajastan previously.
Prabhupada: Yes, some governor went to our temple, I heard.
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Aksayananda wrote to me. Governor of Karnataka State.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is a good response, that after seeing our temple he decided to attend our conference. That is very good.
Mahamsa: The boys are selling more than fifteen hundred rupees' worth of books, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: In Bangalore?
Mahamsa: Yes. And the most popular book there now is that Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. Everyone, everyone is buying. (Prabhupada laughs)
Gopala Krsna: They wanted us to print lakhs of copies of that book.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gopala Krsna: We can get it printed in India now.
Prabhupada: Yes. And in that book we have mentioned that Darwin's theory is completely bogus. In Europe and America also we are getting good response, very.
Mahamsa: Also another party of five devotees, they have started on the bullock cart sankirtana, going village to village. But it's very austere. They were... I told them, "You go for two months, come back after two months." But they returned in six days. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Why?
Mahamsa: Because first of all, they did not know how to ride the bulls, so the bulls gave a lot of trouble.
Prabhupada: Then there is no professional driver?
Mahamsa: Well, now we are going to hire one driver to take care of the bulls. And secondly, even the axle of the cart was a little defective. Otherwise the program was a great success.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is success. People were coming.
Mahamsa: Yes. And one person came to the temple in Hyderabad and met me. He said that "After your devotees had a program in our village, the farmers in the evening they were coming and doing kirtana instead of just..." Previously they were not doing anything, but now they are coming after farming. In the evening they are collecting and they are doing kirtana together.
Prabhupada: Just see how quickly there will be response. Therefore I was insisting, "Go village to village, town to town." Caitanya Mahaprabhu's prediction, prthivite ache yata nagaradi.
Mahamsa: Grama, yes.
Prabhupada: So it will never be foiled. Let us now begin village to village.
Mahamsa: People in the villages, they are innocent, but they have been infected with so many vices. They are all drinking toddy every day.
Prabhupada: They'll... If they chant, they will forget it.
Mahamsa: Yes. And the government is pushing toddy sales because they make money on it. They make tax.
Prabhupada: They want money, that's all.
Mahamsa: So they want to encourage.
Gopala Krsna: And now they're bringing prohibition.
Mahamsa: Where? Only in Madras there is now.
Prabhupada: No, the government is now thinking of seriously, to stop. If the government simply prohibits these four things -- meat-eating, and drinking, gambling, and illicit sex -- the whole country will change immediately.
Mahamsa: A couple of months back there was an article in the papers that the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is going to ban all gambling activities.
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Mahamsa: So I wrote back a letter to the chief minister requesting him that he has made a very good step and he should try and restrict all the four sinful activities.
Gopala Krsna: Did he reply?
Mahamsa: No, he never replied.
Prabhupada: This animal civilization, go-kharah, is going as civilization -- drinking, meat-eating, gambling. This is less than animal civili... Animals do not play gambling, at least. They have illicit sex, but no gambling.
Yasomati-nandana: They cannot have intoxication either.
Mahamsa: Oh, yes, drinking.
Prabhupada: That sugar, they say that the ants they are very intoxicants; therefore they like sugar. Sugar is intoxication. Wine is made from sugar. Yes.
Mahamsa: Yes. Molasses.
Prabhupada: Molasses. Ferment molasses with sulphuric acid and then distill. It is wine, liquor. People are producing unnecessary quantity of sugarcane; therefore the drinking habit is increasing. Because from sugar the molasses is the by-product, so they have to use. They are finding out what is next industry, and the next industry is liquor, wine. So when they produce more wine, then they must sell, and the people must drink. This is going on, one after another. And in Hawaii, Mauritius and in so many other places we see they have produced unnecessary quantity of sugarcane. And then molasses... (aside:) Hare Krsna. And then wine, and they must be sold.
Devotee (2): So this is sinful activity, then.
Prabhupada: All sinful activity. Ugra-karma. And if you drink wine, then you must require meat. Otherwise your liver function will be bad. There must be lump of meat. And as soon as wine and meat combine, then you require illicit sex. It is one after another. This is scientific. So we stop immediately: "Stop these four principles." Then one will be free from sinful life. Then he'll understand what is God. Otherwise not possible. A sinful man cannot understand what is God. Why the whole world is godless? On account of the sinful life, they cannot understand.
Devotee (2): So the means of production have to be changed into pious type of...
Prabhupada: No. If you stop sinful activities, the production will automatically stop. If there is no market for wine, then it will stop automatically. So you stop drinking, and the market for liquor will stop. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So we can return. [break] ...has not come today? He is entangled with his grandson.
Devotee (2): What is that?
Prabhupada: Kejiya? Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Yan-maithunadi grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. (laughs) Beginning, sex. Again sex, again sex, again sex. [break]
Mahamsa: ...now we have about sixteen to eighteen thousand kg's of rice stocked up. We just harvested all the rice. We got a fairly good yield, not exceptionally good because it was our first attempt.
Prabhupada: So your invested money is realized?
Mahamsa: Yes. If we sell that, we can get at least double.
Prabhupada: "If we sell" means you sell it. First of all take whatever you invested, money.
Mahamsa: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Sell what we invested and distribute the rest.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam daily. So they are coming for kirtana?
Mahamsa: Few people are coming, but there are not so many devotees there to have a...
Prabhupada: Organize.
Mahamsa: ...big program. Yes. And all the devotees who are there are very new, all new recruits.
Prabhupada: Then how we are going to organize?
Mahamsa: Well, Hamsaduta said as soon as the land is transferred he would send ten devotees for the farm. So then I think it will start.
Prabhupada: So we have to import devotees. You cannot create devotees.
Mahamsa: We have got about eight devotees there who are new, but they are not experienced.
Prabhupada: Train them, train them.
Gopala Krsna: To give a manager right way, Hamsaduta said.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Gopala Krsna: He can give a manager for the farm.
Mahamsa: Yes. If we get a manager, then we can manage.
Prabhupada: No. If you do not get a manager, then what is the use of taking the land? If you cannot manage, then what is the use of taking? Give them prasadam. They will come. So why you are not giving that prasadam? Every day there must be huge prasadam distribution.
Mahamsa: Many people?
Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever you grow, you use it for prasada distribution. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...thing produced, that should be used as prasadam. And they will chant. (aside:) Hare Krsna. If that program is not done, then what is the use of taking?
Mahamsa: We have plenty of rice now, and also the dahl will be harvested in about fifteen, twenty days. And the village people, this is their normal food, rice and dahl.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fine.
Mahamsa: So we can distribute to all the villagers.
Prabhupada: Distribute rice and dahl and little vegetables, and they will come, take prasadam and chant.
Mahamsa: Also this bullock cart party can recruit many persons from villagers to come and stay at the farm.
Prabhupada: That is first business, that they should join this movement and eat prasadam and chant Hare Krsna. [break] ...food, they have begun spinning their own cloth.
Devotee (2): Oh, yes.
Mahamsa: Most of the land at the farm is black cotton soil, very favorable for growing cotton. So a piece of that we can take, ten acres or so for growing cotton, and spin our own cloth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is required. Why purchasing cloth, twenty-two rupees per pair? No? What is the charge nowadays?
Mahamsa: It's about three, four rupees per meter.
Giriraja: For two dhotis you'd need fifteen rupees.
Prabhupada: Fifty?
Giriraja: Fifteen.
Prabhupada: Fifteen. Yes.
Giriraja: For the good quality.
Prabhupada: So if we produce our own cloth, there is no su... (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Harikesa: What do they use for utensils in a self-sufficient society?
Prabhupada: Banana leaf.
Harikesa: Cooking utensils.
Brahmananda: Clay cups.
Prabhupada: Cooking, of course, you can get pots, brass pots. [break] ...temple. Huh?
Mahamsa: The structure is over, Prabhupada. Now the ornamental work is started since last fifteen days. They said they could finish it by March, but I don't know if we'll be able to push it before that. Since last one month the collections have also increased. So if the collections go on in the same speed as we are going now, it may be finished by March. But otherwise definitely by August it will be complete. [break] ...fifteenth of this month Indira Gandhi was in Hyderabad. I got a letter from Praghosa that there were lakhs of people there to see her, and we have printed up coupons which we go shop to shop and tell everyone that "You buy one brick for the temple. So eleven rupees is the cost of one brick. So in your name one brick must be put." So we have these coupons, and they distributed six thousand rupees' worth of coupons in that program. Six hundred coupons they distributed in that meeting.
Prabhupada: "Sell well." You know he is "sell well" man. (laughter)
Mahamsa: Sell a brick for the temple. Well, one person got the book, and he came the next day and he wanted to become a member. He was convinced. And Acyutananda says that this is for the atheistic people who cannot understand God, so here we are proving scientifically that God exists and how Krsna is the supreme scientist. So materialists, there are so many materialistic people, they always like these kind of books, so they are buying.
Gopala Krsna: The next book will also be a big hit, I think, that these scientists are preparing.
Mahamsa: Daily there are at least 2,000 to 2,2500 people coming to the program. There would be more if there was more space, but it's an enclosed hall, so we can't fit in more people. It's packed up.
Gopala Krsna: It's a lot bigger than it was three months ago?
Mahamsa: Oh, yes. We have very big publicity. And we get letters from different parts of Karnataka inviting us for programs in their villages.
Prabhupada: Yes, you do that. [break] Some big man came to see me for cooperating with others like Chinmayananda and Vinoda Bhave.
Mahamsa: A businessman?
Giriraja: Bajaj.
Prabhupada: Bajaj, yes.
Mahamsa: [break] They are quite friendly with us. There is one (indistinct) Swami, he likes our movement very much. And they have written in their book... There was a picture with devotees doing kirtana in the Dharma-prakash.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I sometimes wrote article. That Dr....
Mahamsa: Nagar. Nagar and Rao.
Prabhupada: No, not Nagar. He is a devotee. [break]
Mahamsa: Prabhupada, how can we cooperate with them?
Prabhupada: With (indistinct)?
Mahamsa: No, the Chinmayananda and this sect.
Prabhupada: No, cooperation on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. If they are actually serious preaching Bhagavad-gita, then there is cooperation.
Mahamsa: Recently Chinmayananda had a big program in Hyderabad for twelve days. He spoke on the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gita, but he never mentioned the name of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Mahamsa: And last year when he had come, he said in his first lecture that "We will accept those verses now which are suitable, and those which are not suitable, we will reject them." He wants to reject Krsna's authority.
Prabhupada: Then we reject them. At once we reject it. Yes. These Mayavadis, they know that if they accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then their Mayavadi philosophy is finished.
Mahamsa: And those of the Vivekananda or Ramakrishna asrama, there is only one senior devotee that they have now, he is the president of the Hyderabad branch. His name is Ranganath.
Prabhupada: Oh, Ranganath, yes.
Mahamsa: And one day one of our regular devotees, he went to see him and said, "What about in America there are so many people, they are chanting Hare Krsna?" So he says, "In America also there are many fools." So he is blaspheming like this, how can we cooperate with such people?
Prabhupada: No, we cannot cooperate. But if there is meeting we can prove them that they are fools. (laughter) That's all. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Jaya.
Indian devotee: That is required. Actually, that is the potency of your teaching is so powerful. I have seen that every time someone makes this poor excuses in front of people... Just like yesterday I was in the train, and one guy was saying exactly the same thing, that "I believe in the Bhagavad-gita in my own way." So I opened up Bhagavad-gita and I showed to four people, "Look here, just see what Krsna is saying here." And all of them agreed. They said, "Yes, yes. You are right and he is wrong." All of them. He said that "I believe in Bhagavad-gita in my own way." I said, "Are you the controller of the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets?"
Mahamsa: Oh yes, we all... Just two, three days back we went to see that Sankaracarya of Kamakochi(?), and the old Sankaracarya, he was very nice. He said, "Oh, you are doing very nice work," and he liked us very much. But then the young Sankaracarya, he didn't say anything, but he had one pandita near him who started, who first questioned us that "Do you know Sanskrit?" So...
Prabhupada: Why did you not, "Do you know English?" (laughter)
Mahamsa: So first of all Acyutananda... I wasn't there, but Acyutananda and Yasodananda said, "No, we don't know much San... A little bit. We don't..." So he quoted, "Sarva dharman... Do you know that verse?" So they said, "Yes." So he said, "Explain what is the meaning of that verse." He started the whole conversation. We didn't want to get into any philosophical argument. So they started explaining what is the meaning, one must surrender to Krsna. And then it went on, who is Krsna. And then finally Acyutananda and Yasodananda were quoting so many slokas that they were completely baffled, and the whole crowd that was there, they were appreciating, and we were defeating them. By every sloka we were defeating them, and they were completely baffled. Ultimately he said -- he could not fight back -- so he said, "Swamiji, you are right," and he wanted to close the whole conversation because the people were gaining our side. They were being convinced by our slokas.
Prabhupada: This is Krsna's mercy.
Mahamsa: They were completely shocked that they knew so many Sanskrit slokas from so many different scriptures.
Prabhupada: The Western learned circle, they are admitting that the greatest contribution of Hare Krsna movement is these authentic translation of Vedic literature. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Mahamsa: [break] Many people in Bangalore, when I went to see them, they knew about our movement. "Oh, yes, Hare Krsna. You all do bhajan..." They call us bhajan mandali. Then when we started preaching to them, showing them the philosophy, the books and all the activities that we are doing all over the world, they were really, they were shocked. They said, "Oh, we never knew you were doing so much." And they said there is no other organization which is comprising of all the different kinds of activities, all kinds of welfare and spiritual activities that we are doing. If we just had many preaching parties and go all over and show people what all the activities that we are doing, people will accept us. They will know more about our movement. Otherwise right now they just think that we are just a kirtana group, bhajan mandali.
Prabhupada: [break] What did he speak?
Mahamsa: He spoke on different verses, one by one, of the twelfth chapter. But no conclusion. Every lecture there was no conclusion. So he leaves the people in a blank. There is no conclusion to any of his lectures. And his philosophy is "Krsna means black. Black means unknown. Therefore Krsna is unknown. Krsna is unknown. We cannot know Krsna."
Prabhupada: And what about others' version who knows Krsna? Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu or all the acaryas? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 21, 1975, Bombay
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