"Science vs. Veda vs. Religion"

May 15, 1973


Prabhupada: ...difficulty for the scientist to understand God? What is their difficulty? We understand God very easily.

Svarupa Damodara: They find it very hard to see the spirit, the soul in... It is very doubtful, they say.

Prabhupada: No, no, spirit you see or don't see, that is dif...

Umapati: He studies matter.

Prabhupada: No, that's all right.

Svarupa Damodara: No, once they see the spirit soul, they can detect somehow, then they are definitely convinced.

Prabhupada: So how you can see? It is... The measurement is given, 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair. So where is your seeing power?

Svarupa Damodara: Still they want to sense it by some...

Prabhupada: Sense, that is... Any rascal can sense that here is living energy. That is spirit soul. Just like if you inject one grain of poison and immediately he dies, does it require how he dies? That one, not one grain. Even one hundredth part of one grain, venomous poison, how it acts? So even nobody can see it, when the snake bites, nobody can see where is that... How he dies?

Svarupa Damodara: They will explain that by..., it blocks some of the metabolic paths...

Prabhupada: That's all right, but it is acting. That is my point. You can explain in your nonsense way, this, so many things. But I see that because that very little portion of poison is there, immediately he dies. Why don't you see the action?

Svarupa Damodara: Just like taking cyanide. Cyanide, they say cyanide blocks the...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, but the thing, we have to see by the effect. Similarly, if the small particle of... Therefore our knowledge is perfect. We take it from Vedas. The small particle of soul, because it is present there, you will see the whole thing is going on nicely.

Karandhara: But they say the soul is subject to material conditions. They are seeing the body as the soul; so they say because it is subject to material conditions, therefore it's not eternal.

Prabhupada: No, no. Maybe material conditions, that is... But soul you have to accept there is soul.

Svarupa Damodara: Once they accept the existence of the soul, then there is not much difficulty. Once they accept this, then automatically they have to accept.

Prabhupada: No, they have to accept. They have no explanation. All they explain foolishly. How the man is living, how there is consciousness, he cannot explain. Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. Consciousness, because the soul is there, if I pinch here, immediately I feel, I am conscious. Throughout the whole skin, I am conscious. Actually the soul is not there. If you cut it, chop it, nobody protests. Why this simple thing they do not understand?

Paramahamsa: That's the soul, Prabhupada, but about God...

Prabhupada: First of all let us understand the soul. Soul is the, a small God, sample God. If you understand the sample, then you can understand the whole thing.

Umapati: Some scientists are claiming that just because they haven't yet discovered how to create life, they are soon to, and...

Prabhupada: What is that?

Umapati: They are in the process of trying to create life.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That we kick out. That we kick on their face. You show what you have got just now. That we don't accept, that "We are trying."A rascal will say, "I am trying to be millionaire." When you become millionaire, then talk. Now you are a poor vagabond. That's all. That we shall accept. What... You are trying. Everyone will say, "I am trying." What you are now? That is our proposition.

Paramahamsa:. At the present they know how to kill very good.

Prabhupada: Yes. Nonsense. "We are trying." That any nonsense will say, "I am trying." What is this? That is not a scientific proposition.

Umapati: Well, the argument that has been presented is that "Well we don't have it now, but soon we're to have it. So..."

Prabhupada: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say, that "I am trying to..." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You as you don't trust, because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you?

Umapati: Give them a lot of credit.

Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past.

Prabhupada: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?

Paramahamsa: Helped death.

Prabhupada: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help?

Umapati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."

Prabhupada: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?

Umapati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...

Prabhupada: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?

Umapati: Well, I am not doing this.

Prabhupada: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian.

Paramahamsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Krsna consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now. Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only.

Umapati: That's their new religion.

Prabhupada: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?

Umapati: Sense gratification.

Prabhupada: That's all. Violating.

Paramahamsa: They have lost respect as well.

Prabhupada: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business?

Umapati: Somehow they think they have an answer.

Prabhupada: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?

Umapati: No.

Prabhupada: The earth was flat. They believed that the world is flat. So how much imperfect knowledge they have got. So imperfect knowledge, how long it can go? Just like we are going to challenge all these rascals that life is grown out of matter. We are going to challenge. It is not a fact. So how long you can cheat people? For hundred, two hundred, thousand years, but you cannot cheat for all the time.

Umapati: It has been going on from time immemorial. I guess they figure they can just keep going on for time immemorial.

Prabhupada: No time immemorial. You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all. Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two hundred years. That's all. So you are being cheated for the last two hundred years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another fifty years, everything will be finished.

Karandhara: Yes, they say now there is an anti-intellectual movement. People are rebelling to science and modern progress.

Prabhupada: What is that science? That is not science. That is ignorance. Ignorance. Simply ignorance. Ignorance is going as science. Irreligion is going as religion. So how long it will go? People are becoming intelligent.

Paramahamsa: In Newsweek Magazine-it's the largest magazine in the United States -- there was an article about the degradation of Christianity, and they summarized it with a cartoon, a picture of the devil, you know maya. This is their image of maya. And he was causing earthquakes. There was a very large earthquake in South America. It killed many thousands of people. So they attribute this to maya. And right next to them was a picture of Richard Nixon, because he is a very famous, you know... He presents himself as a follower of Christ. And he's bombing Southeast Asia.

Prabhupada: "Thou shalt not kill."

Paramahamsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians."

Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Krsna consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati (Mundaka Upanisad 1.3). If you simply understand Krsna, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Krsna, Krsna is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gita -- you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati: "By knowing Krsna only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy. Now, our question was that we say that the man... I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say, "The man is made after God." Is it not?

Paramahamsa: "In the image of God."

Prabhupada: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God."

Umapati: The most ideal image of a human being is God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). So you take a perfect man. Just like Krsna, you take a perfect man, take him as man, you see that He is God. He has got all the perfections. Even if you take him as a man.

Paramahamsa: No competition.

Prabhupada: No competition. That is Bhagavan. Bhagavan means... We are giving this definition. Bhagavan means a perfect man. That's all. Now, just like man wants to wife, to have wife. So why there is, what is called, adulteration? He wants more than one wife. Just see, perfect Krsna, He has got sixteen thousand wives, which you cannot imagine. Here is perfection. You cannot say that a man has no inclination to have more than one wife. That is there. So that propensity is, in perfection, is there in Krsna. Therefore He is God.

Umapati: They refer to it as the Don Juan complex.

Prabhupada: Juan complex, what is that?

Umapati: It's a character in Spanish history, fictional history. The perfect lover, the image that all men would like to be, the perfect lover.

Prabhupada: Yes. So who can be perfect lover than Krsna? Krsna, He loves everyone. Where is that man, he loves everyone? The so-called patriot, they love their countrymen, but kill their animals. Why? Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen. Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Krsna is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Radharani also. That is perfection. That is perfection. Krsna talks with birds. These are there. One day on the bank of Yamuna He was talking with a bird. One old lady saw and said, "Oh, He's talking with a bird?" That is perfection.

Paramahamsa: He sounded like this? He talked like that, like the birds talk?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore Krsna's another quality is bahubhasajnah, He can speak in any language.

Umapati: Birds have language? Animals have their language?

Prabhupada: Oh yeah everyone has language. Everyone.

Umapati: Father, how is it that we can enjoy this energy we are in, Krsna's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Krsna's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Krsna's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk.

Prabhupada: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Krsna consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Krsna consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is maya. That is maya. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is maya.

Umapati: Just like the doctor's...

Prabhupada: Yes. This is maya. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these grhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?

Svarupa Damodara: Forty drops.

Prabhupada: Just see. And how many, how much drops of semen he is discharging... That means he's spoiling his blood. But he is thinking, "I am enjoying." Would you like to, by giving your blood to enjoy? Would you like?

Umapati: No, I don't think I'd like.

Prabhupada: But you are doing that, every night. And that is called maya.

Umapati: I'm a brahmacari, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No, you are...(laughter) I am giving an example. This is going on. He is going to die. He has adopted a process by which he will die, and he thinks that he is enjoying. This is called maya. Maya means things which is not, maya. Ma means not, ya means this. "What you are thinking, it is not that." That is called maya. So they are in maya means, they are thinking, these rascals, they are thinking, improving, becoming happy, advancing this maya word will finish everything, ma, ya: "Not this." Bhagavata says that "You are thinking you are becoming victorious, but you are being defeated." Parabhavas tavad abodha-jatah. These rascal, abodha-jatah, born fools and rascal, they are becoming defeated in every step. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So long he does not inquire about his self, "What I am," he is simply being defeated. That's all. This is the verdict.

Umapati: Walking further into the cave.

Prabhupada: He's working foolishly like animal. He does not know what is soul, what he is, nothing of the sort. He is working hard day and night and he is thinking, "I am becoming victorious." This is called maya. What victory? Have you won victory over birth, death, the real problem? "No. We have won victory. We can now, without horse, we can go with a car." So what is that? With a horse or without horse, you cannot go anywhere else. You will be here within this world. That's all. Just like these rascals, now they have invented car. You know that? Formerly they were walking.

Karandhara: Yes. Now he is pulling car.

Prabhupada: That's all. What is that? That within he's..., that golf area. (Apparently, a man is mowing grass on a machine in the background) That's all. (laughing) You know the cow? The cow is stuck up with a pole in India and long rope, and he's thinking, "I am free."

Krsna-kanti: They have made a longer rope.

Prabhupada: Yes. And he is thinking, "I am so free." Is not? This rascaldom is going on.

Paramahamsa: The one who wrote Paradise Lost, Milton, he also wrote a poem which said that, "A working man is nothing but a devil's slave."

Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.

Paramahamsa: "He works so hard for his money, but not his life can he save."

Prabhupada: No, what he will do with the money? He will satisfy his senses, that's all.

Paramahamsa: So he sells his life.

Prabhupada: So he's servant of the senses.

Umapati: He sells his energy...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Umapati: Krsna's energy that is in him, maya's energy.

Prabhupada: [break] ...transmigration of soul. Suppose this time I am very great scientist, and next life I become a tree like this. What is my advancement? Stand up for ten thousand years. What is the advancement?

Svarupa Damodara: Going backwards.

Prabhupada: Yes. Going to hell, that's all. You are trying to be naked; nature will say, "Yes, you stand here naked for ten thousand years." Yes. That is the punishment for being naked. Human life is not meant for becoming naked. That is according to Vedic civilization a great sin. You see. So their, their propensity they are increasing to become naked like our George... What's his name? Lennon, Lennon. So next time he is going to be tree, stand up. Otherwise wherefrom the trees come? They cannot explain. You become tree. That's all. Just like the Nalakuvara; they were taking bath naked without caring for Narada. All right, you become naked for one hundred years.

Svarupa Damodara: Among the trees also, there are different grades of trees, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety.

Svarupa Damodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are...

Prabhupada: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also.

Svarupa Damodara: Cows.

Prabhupada: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?

Umapati: Uncontrollable tongue.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now what is that bird who is killed in Christmas?

Devotees: Turkey.

Prabhupada: Turkey, you see. Now, Christmas, God's Christmas, Jesus Christ. He said, "Thou shalt not kill." But his birthday is observed by killing, killing, killing, killing, killing.

Paramahamsa: And ham. Ham is also cow, isn't it?

Karandhara: Pig.

Paramahamsa: Pig. Pig and turkey they have.

Krsna-kanti: Actually, they kill the turkey on Thanksgiving, which is the day that they acknowledge and give thanks to the Lord.

Umapati: For this great country.

Prabhupada: For giving them opportunity to kill? And where is the opportunity? The Lord said, "Thou shalt not kill." Where do they get the opportunity of killing? That is another blaspheme. Where do they get this opportunity? They manufacture.

Sukadeva: In Seattle not only do they eat cows, but they run out of cows and they start eating horses. It is very famous now to buy horsemeat. They have horse steaks instead of cow steaks. It has become so degraded now that they are eating horses.

Prabhupada: Why?

Paramahamsa: They ran out of cows. Cows cost too much.

Sukadeva: So now they are killing horses.

Prabhupada: So now they will eat their old father. Yes. No price. Home made. (laughter) Home made concession.

Svarupa Damodara: I think it's quite wet, Srila Prabhupada, this side.

Paramahamsa: Maybe drier over that way.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anywhere you go.

Svarupa Damodara: This side is better, actually.

Paramahamsa: Not only did Christ tell them not to kill, but he also, he himself said that all his disciples were like sheep and animals and he was their herder. So he gave the example that we are all like, we should be like innocent animals. So many examples he gave like that.

Svarupa Damodara: I remember this in Pittsburgh last year Srila Prabhupada, in that meeting with the bishops, there was a Christian father, a Catholic father. So the question raised that Srila Prabhupada said, "Thou shalt not kill," in the Bible, in the Commandments.

Prabhupada: Yes. I was invited by some Christian priest in Melbourne, very good gathering. I said also the same thing.

Svarupa Damodara: I think his answer was "When the Bible was written, Christ didn't mean this way." That was his answer.

Prabhupada: Oh, He used that part. He has found out. The rascal. Beat with shoes, that what "Christian, Christ could not find out, you have found out. You are so great. Thank you very much. You are more intelligent than Christ. Oh. So why Bible. Why not write your Bible? Let us follow."

Paramahamsa: Generally there are now something like 451 different translations. Just like the Gita. They interpret in so many ways.

Prabhupada: No Gita, or... Many translations, but the original Gita is perfect.

Paramahamsa: Yeah. Well they are not even sure that the Bible is (tape is very distorted) As a matter of fact it's a known fact that so many of the excerpts from Christ's disciples were, how you say, censored. There were parts taken out.

Prabhupada: Some Bible authorities say that there is no soul of the animal. St. Joseph or something.

Devotee: St. Thomas.

Karandhara:. That was St. Augustine.

Prabhupada: Just see. How great fool he was. And he's a saint. You see.

Krsna-kanti: Well the real in his book (tape distortions)

Prabhupada: Jivo jivasya jivanam.

Svarupa Damodara: One life is the food of another.

Prabhupada: Another. That is not the question. That is also science. And this is also science that every living entity has got... (distortions) You eat. That I have already said, but why do you say something which is not fact?

Devotee: They say what is the difference between an animal and a plant?

Prabhupada: Maybe different (distortion) difference between you and me. That difference you'll find amongst ourselves. We are all different. But that does not mean I have no soul. Any one of us has soul. (distortions till end of tape)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 15, 1973, Los Angeles