"Bhakta Is The Only Scientist"

"Bhakta Is The Only Scientist"

Bombay, Novewmber 18, 1975



Prabhupada: This is beginning of knowledge. Everyone is thinking that he is independent. But completely under the control of prakrti.

Dr. Patel: [break] ...avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. Then brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca.

Prabhupada: Where is the entrance? Here? This side?

Saurabha: This will be, there. This will be the entrance.

Prabhupada: A small door?

Saurabha: No, no. This three big space, about seven feet, seven feet, seven feet. There's three openings.

Prabhupada: [break] Scientists, do they accept this prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]?

Dr. Patel: I think many of those wise people do accept. But you have been harsh to all and none, all of them at par. But so many of them are really intelligent people who accept... Because we can't do so many things. Practically nothing we can do. Because we find out something here and there does not mean that we are perfect in knowledge. But the scientists nowadays are different than what the scientists were in those days when you were a student. And you think we are just like that. We are different today. He's a scientist. He will tell you. The scientists do see... Scientists do, does the darsana of God in every part of the science, in every cell of living cell, every atom.

Prabhupada: No. What was the report?

Brahmananda: Of the books?

Prabhupada: No. The report, speak to him, that science...

Brahmananda: The reporter? Scientist?

Prabhupada: Scientist.

Giriraja: Oh, yes.

Dr. Patel: Few scientists may be like that. That does not mean all scientists are like that. We are here. Half a dozen of us are scientists, aren't we here?

Prabhupada: No, no. Suppose you are a scientist, I am scientist, so if you do not believe in God, I believe in God...

Dr. Patel: How can I not believe in God?

Prabhupada: No, no. You say some of the scientists.

Dr. Patel: No, somebody else does not believe in God. Don't put me there. (laughter) He does not believe in God. Suppose he does not believe in God. (laughter) It is impossible for me not to believe in God, how much I may try even in my dream. It is impossible.

Prabhupada: No, I am speaking not you but a scientist, so-called scientist. So what did he say? That "There is no need of God"?

Giriraja: Yes. He said, "We don't know where the elements came from that made the creation, but we know that we don't require God to explain it."

Prabhupada: This is the reply. All the so-called scientists, their only point is how to deny the existence of God.

Dr. Patel: But how can you say, "All the scientists," sir? I strongly oppose this statement.

Giriraj: I have spoken to many...

Dr. Patel: I mean, all scientists

Prabhupada: Majority.

Dr. Patel: Some of them.

Giriraja: I have spoken to many students coming out of the Indian schools, and they all say that "The universe was created by a chunk and it exploded," and they have no training that God is there behind everything that you see.

Dr. Patel: Everything is occuring by explosions. In our mind an explosion occurs, and we start believing in God. So that is not that, sir. I think they are misguided. How can anything happen without a supreme power?

Prabhupada: If they are misguided, how they are scientists?

Dr. Patel: But we have all learned in the same schools of science, he, I and the rest, also scientists, here. We have learned the same way the science. But it all depends upon how he grasps it, how he thinks about it, how he understands it.

Prabhupada: So that we can understand, that he is grasping like a fool. Therefore we call them "fools, rascals." There was a newspaper interview with a so-called scientist.

Dr. Patel: The great-grandfather of modern science, Einstein, did he not believe in God? He made darsana of God everywhere. Even in explosion of atom he saw it. Even in his theory of relativity, he finally said it was wrong. "All things are relative to God." That is what he said. And I don't think there is a greater scientist than Einstein in the modern times.

Prabhupada: There are some scientists...

Dr. Patel: If other fellows say any damn thing, that does not mean... Even though he may be a Nobel Prize winner, that does not mean that he is really a true scientist. He may be all right. He is looking through a long narrow tube in his own subject, a specialist. I have my definition about a specialist is a one who sees through long narrow tube and he got this much vision of the horizon. Such a man may be saying like this to you. I don't think we should deride that science... Scientists are trying to approach God through their own way, sir. That is what I think.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: That doesn't matter if you call them "rascal" or no rascal, but that is their way. That's all. Our way is this; their way may be that. We must not... By many...

Prabhupada: No, no. God says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55].

Dr. Patel: That's right.

Prabhupada: How you can manufacture your own way? That is rascal.

Dr. Patel: But that is their bhakti.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That...

Dr. Patel: How can you say that? You may call them "rascal." Doesn't matter to them. But then that is their way, sir.

Prabhupada: No, no. Yes... That is obstinacy.

Dr. Patel: That... Obstinacy or no obstinacy, that is their way. That's all. Truth has to be understood.

Prabhupada: You cannot understand God in your own way. That is not possible. Everyone is...

Dr. Patel: "Those also come to Me," avidhi-purvakam. Avidhi-purvakam.

Prabhupada: Avidhi means rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: You may call them rascal or rogue or...

Prabhupada: No, no. Avidhi, avidhi...

Dr. Patel: But they are going to the same place.

Prabhupada: You are a medical man. If somebody is doing wrongly, you must say it is a rascaldom. Yes. You cannot accept, "Oh, you are all right. You are all right. You are doing in your own way." (laughter) He's another rascal.

Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right, sir.

Prabhupada: That's right? You are a medical man and you'll, you'll...?

Dr. Patel: Still I say... You'll hear.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, I cannot hear this.

Dr. Patel: You see, we don't understand the working of those people in Africa, those junglis. But they do some...

Prabhupada: But you are not a junglis; you are a medical man, sir.

Dr. Patel: Please listen to me. I beseech you to hear me for a minute. They do some things which we cannot explain, and we do by their own ways.

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: The scientists know it.

Prabhupada: As soon as you do in your own way, that is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: Then we are rascals.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I am representative to all the rascals of the world here. (laughs) That way, if you say so.

Prabhupada: Anything which is really scientific, you cannot do in your own way. Two plus two equal to four is applicable everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to five. It is my own way." This is rascaldom. Scientific means "two plus two -- four." It is accepted everywhere. You cannot say, "Two plus two equal to three. That is my own way."

Dr. Patel: So many phenomenas which are...

Prabhupada: No, no. This is rascaldom. That is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: We are not able to explaining...

Prabhupada: Scientific means there cannot be two opinions. The same, that is scientific.

Dr. Patel: Aren't there multiple ways of approaching the same truth? One may be more straight. Bhakti may be more straight, according to us, but...

Prabhupada: No, no. But we are... Truth is one. Truth is one. You cannot say that "I have got my own way of understanding truth." That is not possible.

Dr. Patel: Well, then I honestly have a little difference, and that is that truth is one point and we want to approach it. You go staight, directly. Yours is the shortest cut. I may be a fool, or a what you call, mudha...

Prabhupada: So how you can remain...? If you are fool, how you can become a scientist?

Dr. Patel: But our science is taught to us, that's all. You may say anything about it, but that is what...

Prabhupada: If you say, "My scientific way is foolish way..."

Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. Mine is foolish way, according to you. But according to you... Just be very wise. What is truth only God knows.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is going on. That is your science.

Dr. Patel: What is truth, God knows.

Prabhupada: Everyone is... A dog is also thinking that he is very intelligent. That is going on all over the world. Ahankara-vimudhatma. That is rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. "Oh, I am all right. I am going on my own way." That is rascaldom. That we say, rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma. This is rascal... Vimudhatma means rascaldom. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. That is rascaldom.

Dr. Patel: But the real scientists don't say this, that they are karta. That is the difference in the modern scientists and the little, hundred years back scientists.

Prabhupada: Here the scientists says, "There is no need of God."

Dr. Patel: That one man told you, and you have been, I mean, deriding all the scientists.

Prabhupada: No, no, mostly they are speaking that way.

Dr. Patel: You are very harsh to the scientists.

Prabhupada: But they have created havoc, godlessness, atheism, all over the world. That is our protest.

Dr. Patel: And we are taking the benefit of that science by flying by the plane, by going by train...

Prabhupada: It has become a difficult task.

Dr. Patel: ...by putting on these clothes, and so many things.

Prabhupada: Just like the students, they say... What do they say? The students?

Giriraja: That in the beginning there was a chunk, and it exploded, and there's no God.

Prabhupada: How they are spoiling the career. Whole life is spoiled. They are being taught in this way. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. This is going on, schools, colleges: "Don't believe in God." That has become a fashion, advancement. Yes. (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: But all are not like that.

Indian man (1): Not all, but some. (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Not some, ninety percent.

Dr. Patel: Some of the fools like him may be thinking like that. I have been right from the... I was born in science and I never thought that there was no God.

Prabhupada: No, no, you...

Dr. Patel: Do you call me an exception?

Prabhupada: I know that. I know. I know you.

Indian man (1): (Hindi)

Dr. Patel: No, no, but I am one of the scientists. He is one of the scientists. He has put on these clothes and...

Prabhupada: But you are supporting the rascal. (laughter)

Dr. Patel: No, but, I don't support a rascal. My explanations are... I strongly...

Prabhupada: No, no, you say that "He is trying to understand in his own way."

Dr. Patel: No, that's right. Now, this point, you go straight. I go this way if I am a mudha, but I go there. That's all right. I'm a mudha. You may call me a fool. I don't mind it. But that is my way, and I am adamant about it. You may call me ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham... [Bg. 3.27]. But he is not calling himself a karta. He goes his own way. That's all. I am sorry to say these words to you, but this is what they think.

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. That is...

Dr. Patel: (laughs) Call them if you like. Those were the rascals before. Some of them are rascals before. Even then...

Prabhupada: No, no. It is not... I am not trying, but Krsna says. Krsna says, "mudha." Krsna says, "mudha."

Yasomatinandana: I was a rascal until I met Prabhupada.

Dr. Patel: You are now not a rascal. I have been watching you. Thing is this, that there are multiple ways of God. We don't know the greatness of God. We just... I feel aghast in thinking about greatness of God, simply.

Prabhupada: There is no multiple ways. That is...

Dr. Patel: There may be any number of ways, but I feel that there is what greatness of God. That's all.

Prabhupada: That is... We protest. There is no many number. There is only one.

Dr. Patel: That depends on his own way.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: But you must be benevolent to these people, at least to an extent, to the scientists, that all scientists are wrong, are they? All scientists are not gadhas. Some of them are good (Hindi) and some of them evolve into man even.

Prabhupada: But we say... If somebody says that "I have got my own way to understand," he is not scientist.

Dr. Patel: Their own way, a section of humanity's way. Not one man's. Science...

Prabhupada: There cannot be many ways.

Dr. Patel: You see, our sad-darsana. The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the modern science. The Vaisesikas also wanted, were going in search of God by their own way, were they not? The Vaisesika sastra is nothing but the physics and chemistry and mathematics, in true sense. (Hindi) Sad-darsana. Vaisesika is one of the recognized darsanas of our ancient, glorious past. I think I am not wrong, sir, in that way. You will pardon me if I say, and I mean, press my point further.

Prabhupada: No, you will say it is in your own way, even if it is wrong...

Dr. Patel: No, no. These are Vaisesikas. They are Vaisesikas. Sudras you may call them, but Vaisesika-sastra was also found out by ancient civilized Indians in search of God.

Prabhupada: No...

Dr. Patel: And the physics, chemistry, biology, science...

Prabhupada: Ravana was the greatest civilized man, but he is considered as raksasa.

Dr. Patel: But we are not Ravanas, are we? We are Vaisesikas.

Prabhupada: No, anyone.

Dr. Patel: We are scientists, Vaisesika scientists. We may not be bhakta scientists, but Vaisesika scientists.

Prabhupada: Bhakta is the only scientist. All others rascals.

Dr. Patel: That you may say, but, well... We are also bhakta.

Prabhupada: That we don't say. Krsna says, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15].

Dr. Patel: But who? Those who are not...

Prabhupada: These rascals. All these rascals.

Dr. Patel: Those who are not in search of Krsna.

Prabhupada: One who has not understood Krsna, they are all mayayapahrta-jnana. He may be Vaisesika, kanada, paramanuvada, mayavada. There are so... I know these.

Dr. Patel: Mayavada and these are all...

Prabhupada: They different, different philosophies.

Dr. Patel: Vaisesika is one of the six sciences, just like...

Prabhupada: No, mayavada is also one of them.

Dr. Patel: Mayavada does not belong to one of the six sciences, do they?

Prabhupada: Yes. Kanada, Gautama, Astavakra, then nastika Kapila. There are so many.

Yasomatinandana: Patanjali.

Prabhupada: Patanjali, yes.

Dr. Patel: Patanjali yoga is also... He said, isvarah pari danaiva. (?) Doesn't he say in the raja-yoga sutra that...

Prabhupada: He is suggesting, but he has no clear idea.

Dr. Patel: He definitely has said in thirty-fourth sutra, isvarah pari danaiva: "If you can't vacate your mind, put God inside." isvarah pari danaiva.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. Holiday Inn Hotel? [break]

Yasomatinandana: ...accept God. But if they do accept God, then none of their activity shows it. They're constantly trying to disprove God.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Indian man (2): Srila Prabhupada? This boy wants to go in gurukula school.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Jayapataka: In your prayer we say, pascatya-desa-tarine. But now don't you think we could say "visva"? (Prabhupada chuckles) I think that there's no place... You've not only covered Western world but practically whole world.

Prabhupada: I say that because my Guru Maharaja appointed me for that purpose. [break]

Jayapataka: There was a group of reporters who went to see the district magistrate, and they were asking him, taking interview about so many different things. So finally they kept asking about ISKCON because of our Mayapura center. So he said, "Well, I can't say anything about that. I can't say..." Finally one reporter asked another very direct question about their staying here, this, that. And he said, "I have order from Indira Gandhi that the officers, that matha gamrami na.(?) No one, officer, should worry about ISKCON. You just do your own thing. So I can say nothing about them. I have got no authority to say anything about them. We've got this order from Indira Gandhi." Then the reporter said, "Oh, we can print that?" He said, "Please don't print that. Otherwise I will lose my job." So when the local Congress people heard that, they were very happy, our friends. So I think your visit did a great benefit.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Jayapataka: I brought the letter that the district magistrate gave, recommending...

Prabhupada: I think, therefore, they are giving this concession, two years.

Jayapataka: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: [break] ...said that "Don't bother about ISKCON."

Jayapataka: Yes. In Bengali they were talking, matha gamrami na.(?)

Prabhupada: [break] ...you said somebody is coming?

Giriraja: Oh, the Maharaja of Udaipur.

Prabhupada: Ah. So?

Giriraja: I have to call him at nine o'clock and ask him to come earlier.

Prabhupada: No. You have already appointed time, you said.

Giriraja: No, he suggested eleven, and I said I would ask you and ring him back at nine.

Prabhupada: So the interview, you suggested or he suggested?

Giriraja: Mr....

Prabhupada: Udaipur.

Giriraja: He suggested. We suggested having a program at his house. So then he suggested that he wanted to meet you.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Jayapataka: [break]...now all the Caitanya-caritamrtas are printed.

Prabhupada: You have got all?

Jayapataka: No. I only have first, Adi-lila.

Prabhupada: So, you haven't got here? No? So they want book. So they are not dispatching Caitanya-caritamrta?

Gopala Krsna: They haven't dispatched latter volumes. They've done the first few but not the new ones which have come. But he is sending some for your room, to have a complete set in each of your rooms.

Prabhupada: No, no. It should be exhibited in Mayapura, especially.

Jayapataka: It would be nice to have a big book display, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately ask them to dispatch to Mayapura all books for demonstration. That is the main item, and they have not sent in Mayapura? Caitanya?

Giriraja: Well, other than the Adi-lila, the later volumes only came within about a few days ago.

Prabhupada: No, no. In mayapura all the books should be displayed.

Gopala Krsna: Okay. We'll get a complete set for display also.

Prabhupada: Caitanya-caritamrta especially, it should be displayed in Mayapura. Immediately ask to send to Mayapura. And whatever books you have got already, you send them immediately. You select what books you want. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].

Gopala Krsna: [break]...from Hong Kong yesterday, and there's one Chinese producer who's making a Chinese movie and he wants our devotees to be in it for some time.

Prabhupada: To make some money out of all...

Gopala Krsna: It shows how a girl is going to different spiritual gurus for guidance. So they are sending the script first for approval.

Prabhupada: All right.

Gopala Krsna: They're going to show how Vaisnavas live.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Gopala Krsna: Devananda feels that will give us a lot of publicity.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they paid good money.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Jayapataka: In Los Angeles they went in some movies. They got two, three thousand dollars. [break] ...buy kilos when they're that big. So many of them.

Prabhupada: That's nice. That will keep the water clean.

Jayapataka: Yes.

Prabhupada: But be careful that these rascals may not come and throw out(?), the Mohammedans.

Jayapataka: [break] ... is growing on the water. And in the hot days they go in there.

Prabhupada: No. That should be cleaned away.

Jayapataka: Taken off.

Prabhupada: Yes. You can eat it, kalmisan(?). It is very nice.

Jayapataka: Yes. We eat that. We shouldn't let it grow in the pukkur? It's growing in one little corner of the pukkur.

Prabhupada: So that should be cleansed and taken, and the sak can be eaten. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- November 18, 1975, Bombay

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