"Greedy, Pushy Scientists"

Los Angeles, April 28, 1973



Prabhupada: Klisyamananam. It is a very important word. Everyone is suffering here. What the scientists can do that? Future. That's all. Bluff. But everyone is suffering here. That is the word. Bhave 'smin klisyamananam, avidya...

Devotee: Kama...

Prabhupada: Kama-karmabhih. Avidya-kama-karmabhih. They are creating a situation of suffering by unnecessary desire. That's all. So your scientific improvement means you are creating a situation of suffering. That's all. No improvement. You cannot. Kama-karmabhih, kama-karmabhih. They are working in such a way... Bhaktivinoda Thakura also says the same thing: anitya samsare moha janamiya jibake karaye gadha. The so-called scientific improvement means he's already an ass, and he's becoming more, better ass. That's all. Nothing more. He's already an ass because he's part and parcel of Krsna, and he has come to this material world to enjoy. That is ass mentality. There is no enjoyment. So he's already an ass. And this scientific improvement means he's becoming more attached to this material world to remain better ass. Avidya... anitya samsare, anitya. He cannot stay here. Suppose, working very hard like an ass, he gets a skyscraper building, throughout his whole life, laboring. But he cannot stay there. He'll be kicked out. Is it not ass? Is he not an ass? He cannot stay there. Anitya samsare. Anitya. Because it is not the permanent settlement. You are trying: dum dum. (sound imitation) Very strong foundation. That's all right. But your foundation is nothing. You'll be kicked out. Therefore he's an ass. That: "I'll stay here for twenty years." Why dum dum dum, foundation stone? Where is your foundation? Therefore he's an ass.

Svarupa Damodara: Anitya is temporary, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes, anitya means temporary. You cannot stay here. That they do not understand. They're making research, making research. And if we ask them: "What you are doing?" "For the next generation, future." And what about your, your...? You're going to be a tree next life. What you'll do with your next generation? But he's ass. He does not know. He s going to stand before that skyscraper building, a tree, for ten thousand years, and he's making: dum dum dum. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know where he's going. And he's making provision for the next generation. What is the next generation? If there is no petrol, what you'll do, next generation? And how the next generation will help you? You are going to be a dog, cat or tree. So next generation, how he'll help you? Jibake karaye gadha. Therefore he's an ass. He does not know his personal interest. And making research work. What research work? Simply srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply laboring, what is called? Labor of love? Or what is that?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore Bhagavata says: bhave 'smin klisyamananam avidya kama-karmabhih. Avidya. Avidya means ass, no intelligence. He does not know what is life, what is the course of life, how things are going on. He does not know. The more he is increasing his unnecessary desires, he's making himself entangled. That he does not know. He has to take freedom from the repetition of birth and death, but he's becoming more and more entangled. Avidya kama-karmabhih. This is Bhagavata. In one line, the whole material existence explained. This is literature. In one line, there is thousands years research work. In one line. Bhave 'smin. Now this bhave 'smin, you make research. Asmin, in this world, taking birth. So you have to learn so many things on these two words. How the living entities are taking birth in this world. Wherefrom he's coming, where he's going. What is his business. So many things in these two words. Bhave 'smin. Klisyamananam. Struggle for existence. Why? Avidya. Ignorance. What is that avidya? Kama-karmabhih.

Brahmananda: Desire.

Prabhupada: Activities of sense gratification. He's becoming entangled.

Svarupa Damodara: So the modern scientific research means to increase the demands of the body, the bodily demands.

Prabhupada: Yes, what they can do? Because they're rascal, foolish, just like children, they'll simply make their body dirty. That's all. He does not know anything. If you bring a small children, what they will do? They'll take this... You see. he does not know anything. He's a rascal. Similarly you scientists, you are all rascals. You do not know anything. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed, making research. What research you can do? You do not know anything. What research you can do? And Vedic injunction is: yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati (Mundaka Upanisad 1.3). If you know the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known. But you do not know what is Absolute Truth. Therefore you are in ignorance. If you know one thing, then you... Just like you are talking. We are not official scientists or philosopher or anything. But why you are challenging, you are talking so boldly? Because we know one thing, Krsna. Therefore we can say so boldly and challenge anyone. I'm not a D.A.C. like you. How I can challenge you? I'm challenging you. How? Because I know Krsna. That's all. That is the statement of Veda. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. If you know Krsna, the Absolute Truth, then all other things will be known automatically. It is such a thing. We are preaching Krsna consciousness, challenging all kinds of men in the society, so many scientists are coming, so many psychologists coming. So how we are confident to talk with him? Because we have learned little about Krsna. That's all. Is it not? You are a qualified scientist. Why I challenge you? Not that because you are my disciple, you are accepting all my challenges. You have got your reasons. You are not a fool. So how it is possible? Practically, how it is possible? Because we are trying to know little about Krsna. That's all. Therefore this Vedic injunction, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati, yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tatah. These statements are there. If you get Krsna, then you will not hanker after any more profit. Bas. All profit is there. Yam labdhva caparam labham. If you get Krsna, then all other kinds of profit, you'll not hanker after. And what kind of profit this is? Yasmin sthito na duhkhena gurunapi vicalyate [Bg. 6.20-23]. If one is situated in Krsna consciousness, in the greatest calamity of this world, he'll not be disturbed. This is the greatest profit. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. A big giant, Hiranyakasipu, is putting him always in difficulty, but he's confident: "Yes, there is Krsna." A five years old boy. He's not at all disturbed. Father is giving poison. "All right, give me poison." And throwing him from the hill on down. But he is steady. How it is possible? Na duhkhena gurunapi vicalyate. Guru. Guru means heavy, very heavy difficulties. But na vicalyate. He's not perturbed, not disturbed. How it is possible? It is such a thing, that if you know Krsna, you know everything. If you are in Krsna consciousness, then you are not disturbed in the heaviest type of calamity. So these things should be given to the human society. One thing. That will make his life perfect. Is it not?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now it is up to you, scientist, to explain. Yes, this is it.

Brahmananda: That is research work.

Prabhupada: This is research. Yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. Uttamasloka. Uttamasloka means Krsna. Gunanuvarnanam. Describing His qualities. Avicyuto 'rthah. This is success of life. Avicyutah. Avicyutah means infallible. And how it is ascertained? Kavibhir nirupitah. By great personalities. They have decided: "This is the perfection of life." Kavibhih. Yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam avicyuto 'rthah. This is Bhagavata. Each word, each line, volumes of volumes of philosophy. This is called perfection. This kind of writing required. Not that I have researched, find out, and after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not right." Another thing. This is not science. This is childish play. I say: "Today it is all right." And, after fifteen days: "No, no. It is not all right."

Svarupa Damodara: That we find in science.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: That is what we find in science.

Prabhupada: Yes. It is, it is a scientific or clever method of drawing money from others. That's all. In other words, simple words, cheating. That's all. They do not know anything, and they're teaching, scientific method. Now suppose here is big, big waves. You scientists, you say some jugglery of words, proton, atoms, this, that, and hydrogen, phoxygen, oxygen. But what benefit people will get? Simply they'll hear this jugglery of words. That's all. What else you can say? Now suppose it is hydrogen, oxygen, protons, neutrons, all these things. So your position, my position, where is the change? Still we do not get any profit by this jugglery of words.

Svarupa Damodara: Making more confusing to the innocent.

Prabhupada: That's all. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. One scientist explained to some extent. The matter remained the same. Another rascal comes. He explains again. And the matter remains the same. What advancement you have made? Nothing. Simply some volumes of books. That's all. Just like there is petrol problem. What your this explanation will help? You have created problem. Now you are dependent so much on petrol. If the petrol supply is stopped, then what these rascal scientists can do? They cannot do anything. It is stopped. Now there is scarcity of water in India. What the scientists can do? There is enough water. Why the scientists cannot throw this water where there is scarcity of water? It will require the help of cloud. That is God's manipulation. You cannot do anything. Water is here, so much water. Why don't you make this sand fertile by bringing this water? Fertilization made by supplying water in the desert.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: So here is water, here is desert. Why don't you do it? You cannot do anything. They are going to the moon planet, the dusty planet, to make it fertilized. Why don't you do here? Sahara desert, Arabian desert, or Rajasthan desert. And the sea water is there. Bring it, and make it fertile, fertilize. "Yes, in future." That's all. "We are trying." And immediately (indistinct): "Yes, yes, they are trying. Take all money. Take all money."

Svarupa Damodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They do not give up hopes.

Prabhupada: Even hope, there is no hope.

Brahmananda: Blind hope.

Prabhupada: Yes. Ask any doctor: "Now this patient is suffering. You are giving medicine, you are very expert. Life is guaranteed?" "No, that we cannot do. That we cannot do." "We are trying." Trying, everyone can try. Then what is your scientific knowledge? (pause)

Svarupa Damodara: So the real knowledge is taken away by ignorance?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: The real knowledge...is taken away by ignorance.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then it says: andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is claiming that: "I shall lead you, other blind men."

Brahmananda: Into the pit.

Prabhupada: That's all. (pause) And in Bhagavata, in one word, finishes all... Klisyamananam. You'll have to work hard, avidya kama-karmabhih, by your creating so many desires. By this process, you'll have to simply work hard. That's all. Because it is ignorance. You do not know what is the goal of life. So kama-karmabhih. You desire something: "Now we shall do like this." That means you create another problem. And you have to work very hard. That's all.

Prabhupada: What is the next line of that verse? Anyone remembers? No.

Svarupa Damodara: Yesterday's?

Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) This research work is kama-karmabhih. This, in the laboratory, research work, that is kama-karmabhih. They're planning something. That is kama-karma. He, he does not take the planning of Krsna. He makes his own plan. That is kama-karma. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.20]. In another place, it is said: When one is engaged in the matter of these unnecessary desires, he becomes lost of all intelligence. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.20]. (pause) It is like the child's crying. The child is crying, asking mother: "Give me that moon." The mother gives a mirror. "Here is moon, my dear son." He takes the mirror. He sees the moon. "Oh, yes..." He has got the moon. It is not story. Now these rascals are going to the moon planet. Why they have stopped talking anymore?

Karandhara: Well, after spending all that money and taking a few rocks, they decided there's nothing more to do there.

Prabhupada: Therefore, it is kept for future, or what?

Karandhara: I guess so.

Prabhupada: Or they've finished their money. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: They're trying to...

Brahmananda: They want to go to another one now.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, to another planet, Mars.

Prabhupada: It is, it is finished? The moon planet is finished?

Karandhara: For the time being.

Brahmananda: Yes, their, their travels there are finished.

Prabhupada: Simply by taking some dust?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: That's all. Just see how much...

Svarupa Damodara: Millions of dollars.

Prabhupada: How great asses they are.

Karandhara: Billions.

Prabhupada: You, you work very hard. This rascal government takes taxes and spend unnecessarily. That's all. This is their intelligence. A set of asses. That's all. They have no sympathy "that this hard-earned money is coming from the public, and we are spending like anything." But nobody can check. This is going on. And they're giving another bluff. "Don't worry. I am going another planet."

Brahmananda: Yeah, right. Another one.

Prabhupada: Yes. "From there, I shall bring more dust."

Brahmananda: Another future.

Prabhupada: More dust. Now you have got handful of dust. I'll bring tons of dust. Don't.... And if I... "Oh, yes, now we shall get tons of dust." The rascal does not know, dust is dust, and tons... What is the meaning?

Svarupa Damodara: They believe there may be life in Mars planet. So they are very hopeful...

Prabhupada: If they believe or not believe, what gain there is? Life is here also. You are fighting. This is your program. Here is life also. Here is human being. So suppose there is life. There is life, undoubtedly. But what he'll gain? What is your gain?

Svarupa Damodara: They're very curious to know what is going on there.

Prabhupada: That means for their childish curiosity they're spending so much money. Just see the fun. To satisfy their curiosity, they're spending so much money. And when they're asked that: "There are so many poverty stricken countries. Help them." "No. No money."

Nilakantha: Some people are very happy and they think: "Oh, my country has done this. They have gone to the moon. I am happy. I'm satisfied. I'm glad to be an American."

Prabhupada: What's that?

Nilakantha: Some people are very, the public, they're very satisfied: "Oh, I am an American, and we have done this. We have gone to the moon. We are so good."

Prabhupada: Why don't you say: "We have gone to Krsna-loka, Vrndavana, which you have no information"?

Brahmananda: Then all their curiosity will be satisfied.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: This is called "scientific advancement." (pause) Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: Can we hear a little bit from the Sankhya philosophy?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: Sankhya philosophy of Lord Kapiladeva? The creative elements.

Prabhupada: Sankhya philosophy is also analysis of the material elements. That's all. Your scientific research is also sankhya philosophy. San, sankhya, it comes from the word, "san-khya".

Svarupa Damodara: To count?

Prabhupada: Yes. Count, count. That's all. Analytically. What are the ingredients? Analytical studies. That is called san-khya, count. Suppose you take this sand. You count. It is called sankhya. So, from the sankhya, the word, it comes sankhya, knowing analytically. This is sankhya philosophy. So you are also sankhya philosopher. Everyone is sankhya philosopher. We are also sankhya philosopher. Because we are counting the material elements, as Krsna says: bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh [Bg. 7.4]. We are analyzing: "This is land, this is water, this is air, this is sunshine, fire." Then I am counting with my mind, intelligence, ego. And further, I do not know. Krsna says: "There is further." That is the living force. That they do not know. They are thinking: "Life is combination of these matters." But Krsna says: "No." Apareyam. This is inferior. The superior energy is living entity. So we are also sankhya philosopher. But we are taking direction from Krsna, and they're making their own attempt. That is the difference. They're depending on their own intelligence. We don't depend on my own intelligence. We depend on Krsna's intelligence. That is the difference. Then, if Krsna is perfect, then my intelligence is perfect. I may be not perfect, but because I take Krsna's intelligence, therefore I'm perfect.

Svarupa Damodara: The, the nature of the inferior and the superior energies...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: ...are also described in the sankhya philosophy?

Prabhupada: They do not know superior energy. They, they simply analyze the material energy, just you are doing. You do not know. The scientists, they do not know that there is spirit soul. Is it? Do they know?

Svarupa Damodara: No.

Prabhupada: So similarly the sankhya philosophy also, they do not know what is spirit soul. Simply they're analyzing the material.

Svarupa Damodara: So just the creative material elements?

Prabhupada: Yes. Material elements are not creative. Creative is the soul. Just like you make something with matter. Matter does not create itself. You living entity, you take them, hydrogen, oxygen, mix them, and becomes water. So matter it, itself, has no creative energy. You keep here one bottle of hydrogen and... Will they make water? Will they make?

Svarupa Damodara: Hydrogen, oxygen?

Prabhupada: Yes, if you keep here hydrogen bottle, oxygen. Will the combination come in contact?

Svarupa Damodara: Unless it is not mixed.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore you require a superior energy. This is inferior energy, and the superior energy comes, mixes. Then the fact is there. The inferior energy has no power unless the superior energy tackles. Just like this sea will remain calm and quiet. But another superior, air, when it pushes, it becomes high waves. It has no power. Another superior... Similarly another superior, another superior, another superior. So ultimately Krsna, the most superior. This is research. These waves are not moving by itself. Although the vast mass of water is there. When the superior energy, air, pushes it, it becomes big waves.

Svarupa Damodara: So the action of force is necessary?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: Force.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is some scientists' theory, Newton's? That originally there must be some pushing. What is it? Whose theory it is? To set in motion.

Devotee: Newton?

Prabhupada: I think Newton's.

Svarupa Damodara: The Newton has the laws of motion.

Prabhupada: Motion. So one must give the motion. Then another motion, another motion, another motion. Just like big, big, that trucks, railway, trucks. The engine pushes one truck. Have you seen shunting? The, the truck pushes. Another truck, another, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat, kat. Like that.

Brahmananda: Shunting, yeah.

Prabhupada: So who is giving the pushing? The living entity, driver. A big truck is being pushed: kata kak kata kak kata kak kata kak, one after another. Similarly the whole creation, Krsna is giving the pushing. Then one after another, one after another, one after another working. You see. mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is stated in the Bha... mayadhyaksena. Krsna gives the pushing first. Then everything comes, one after another. But His pushing capacity is so perfect that everything is coming out perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. Just like Krsna says: bijo 'ham sarva-bhutanam [Bg 7.10]. "I am the seed of everything created." Now take the seed of the banyan tree. Krsna has created. He says, "I am the seed." Now you sow the seed. A big tree will come out. Big tree will come out. Not only big tree. Many millions of seeds will come out of it. And each seed, again big tree. So the original seed, Krsna, pushes. Then one after another, one after another, one after another... So you are simply observing when the things are coming into existence by such pushing. But you are trying out, trying to find out who is the original pusher. That you do not know. That you do not know. Who has originally pushed this energy? That you do not know.

Svarupa Damodara: So the material elements...

Prabhupada: You are simply observing the immediate cause. You do not know what is the remote cause. There are two causes, immediate cause and remote cause. Another call: "Efficient cause and..."? The two words?

Brahmananda: Efficient cause is the ultimate.

Prabhupada: No, remote cause.

Svarupa Damodara: The remote cause is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. Vedic literature: sarva-karana-karanam. The cause of all causes. That is remote cause. Therefore if you understand the sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes, then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati. If you know the original cause, the later, subordinate causes, you know. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. You do not know the original cause, and when we say... "We say" means when the Vedas says: "Here is the original cause," you won't take it. Although you are searching after the original cause. Is it not? But when Veda,... Veda means knowledge, perfect knowledge. But when gives you: "Here is the original cause." You won't take. You shall stick to your imperfect knowledge. This is your disease. Is it not a disease?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. You do not know what is the original cause, and if some person suggests... Some... Not ordinary persons. Authorized person. You won't accept.

Svarupa Damodara: The scientists do not know that there are two types of energies.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They do not know that there are two types of energies...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: ...inferior and the superior.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That they're actually seeing every day.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Handling every day. Still they'll not. Dog's obstinacy. That's all. They're seeing practically, that the material energy cannot work independently unless the spiritual energy joins. So how they can expect the whole cosmic manifestation, which is matter only, has come out automatically? We are practically seeing, a very nice car, Cadillac. But if there is no driver, what is the use of that car? A computer machine. Unless the man knows how to work it, pushes the button, it does not work. So practically we are seeing that without superior energy, the material energy does not act. Still they'll not believe it. Therefore in this wonderful cosmic manifestation, there must be handling of a superior energy. And that they do not know. They are amazed with this material arrangement. Just like a foolish person is amazed by seeing the mechanical, big machine. So many parts. But another person knows that, however wonderful machine it may be, unless the operator comes and pushes the button, it will not work. This is intelligence. Therefore who is important? The operator or the machine? So we are concerned with the operator, Krsna, not with the machine. If you say: "How do you know that He's the operator?" He says: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence, the whole cosmic manifestation is working." The difference is you don't believe. I believe. That's all. I take it immediately: "Yes, Krsna is operating." Therefore I have no problem. Somebody's operating, that you have to accept. But you do not know who is that person. At least, we have got knowledge, here is the person. That's all. Now if you say: "No, Krsna is not the person," then you have to accept another person. So present him, that "Here is the person, not Krsna. Another..." That you cannot. So in the absence of your knowledge, you have to accept my proposal. [break] Can you create a stem like this in your laboratory?

Svarupa Damodara: That's not possible.

Prabhupada: No, no. But see how Krsna's energy is working. You cannot create even a few grains of sand, and you are claiming that: "We have become more than God." How foolishness it is.

Svarupa Damodara: They will take the, the matter from Krsna, and they will manipulate, and they will claim that they have done it. For example, they can make some, some sands...

Prabhupada: That's all right. At least if you accept that "I have taken this matter from Krsna." That is also good. Just like we take. We take Krsna, from Krsna is coming everything. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: But they will not say that they are taking from Krsna. They'll say that they have created.

Prabhupada: How they have created? You take the sand and mix with some chemicals, make glass. So you have not created the sand. The chemicals, you have not created. You have taken from the earth. So where is your creation?

Svarupa Damodara: They will say that: "I have taken from the nature."

Prabhupada: Eh? Nature? That means you have taken from somebody. You have not created. You have stolen. Thief you are. And we say: "Yes, you have taken from the nature, but every property of nature, that belongs to Krsna." Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. Isavasyam, it is all God's creation. And that is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Yes... If one does not perform yajna, he's a thief. Yajna means acknowledging that things have been taken from Krsna. And we must satisfy Krsna. "Krsna, You have given so many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgement Krsna wants. That's all. Otherwise, what He can expect from you? What you are in His presence? Prasada. Prasada means acknowledging: "Krsna, You have given us this foodstuff. So first of all You taste. Then we take." This much. Krsna's not eating. He's not hungry. He's eating. Although He's not hungry, He can eat the whole world. Again produce it, as it is. That is Krsna's power. Purnat purnam, purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate [Iso Invocation]. Krsna is so perfect, that you take from Krsna, whole Krsna's energy, still the original energy's there. That is conservation of energy.

Svarupa Damodara: There is a very scientific journal called Nature, the title of the journal is called Nature. What they do is... Mostly they talk about the natural products like the plants, flowers, the natural living matters that we find. But they do not talk about God.

Prabhupada: So they...

Svarupa Damodara: But they say about nature.

Prabhupada: Nature, that's all right. You are observing the plants are being produced by nature. But who has produced the nature? This is intelligence.

Svarupa Damodara: They don't think about this.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Wherefrom the nature comes? As soon as we speak nature, then next question should be: "Whose nature?" Is it not? Just like I say: "It is my nature." You say: "It is my nature." Therefore as soon as you talk of nature, the next inquiry should be: "Whose nature?"

Karandhara: They don't want to think of that because they want to use it themselves.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: They don't want to think...

Prabhupada: Nature means energy. What is the definition of nature?

Svarupa Damodara: Somethings which are already existing.

Prabhupada: Yes, they're already existing. That's all right. But what is the nature's activities? It is some power. Is it not? So power means energy. As soon as you say energy, there must be some source of energy. Just like you say: electric energy. So there is source, the electric powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity's not coming automatically. You have to install powerhouse, machine, generating machine. Then the electricity will come. And the resident engineer. Who is the engineer? What is the machine? And then electricity, there is question of electricity.

Svarupa Damodara: From Gita we find...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Svarupa Damodara: In the Gita, we find that...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: And the... "This material nature is working under My direction."

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, as soon as you speak of energy, nature, there must be some background. Where is the source of this nature? (pause) What is this meant for?

Karandhara: Catches crabs. Catches little crabs. It's used for bait.

Prabhupada: Oh. (pause) [break] Scientists, they are studying... It is called stratum?

Svarupa Damodara: Layers. Yes.

Prabhupada: Layers. Such layers, thousands of layers being manufactured and vanished every moment. And they are studying. As these layers are, they're being created and broken every moment, so all these universal, so-called layers a few years. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: That is one of the tools...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: That is one of the tools that the geologists use to trace the origin of the earth.

Prabhupada: No, you can stress. But I mean to say these stratas?

Svarupa Damodara: Strata.

Prabhupada: Strata is being created and vanquished every moment.

Svarupa Damodara: So the, the background is not solid.

Prabhupada: No. Just like the one strata is like that. After an hour, it will be different. So what is the use of your studying this strata? Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means always changing. The material world is always changing. Your body. This body will stay, say, for fifty years, hundred years. Then you get another body. That's all. Another body. Jagat means changing. Now this color is there. Say, after one hour it will be white. You see. Then you study this black color. Again you study the white color. Again this black color. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Chewing the chewed. That is your business. Just like seasonal changes. Now it is cold. Any moment, you'll have to get out (of) these clothes. It is very warm. So these changes are going on. The whole material cosmic manifestation is subjected to different types of changes. Therefore it is called jagat. Jagat means going, changing. Your body's changing. Similarly everything is changing. What is the eternity behind these changes? That is knowledge. That, the eternity, they do not find. Therefore they are disappointed: "It is void, zero. Eternity is zero." That's all. And when they are asked wherefrom the zero, varieties come...? Zero means there is nothing. So how the varieties come? Therefore Vedic conclusion, the varieties, there is, eternity variety. And this is only shadow of that variety. It is not eternal because it is shadow. But the real variety spiritual world, is there.

Svarupa Damodara: So the material planet, material universe, is a real image.

Prabhupada: Yes. Image. Yes. Mirage.

Svarupa Damodara: Mirage.

Prabhupada: Yes, mirage.

Svarupa Damodara: No mirage is... Mirage is not the real image....

Prabhupada: No, it is illusory. Just like I see there is water in the desert. There is no water. This is illusion. But actually there is water. Therefore I get the conception that there is water. Water is there, but it is not there. Similarly these varieties is here, what we see, the varieties, enjoyment, that is only like that mirage. We have got the experience of water. But we are illusioned. We are seeing in a false place there is water. Similarly, we living entities, we are meant for enjoyment, but we are seeking enjoyment in a false place. Or illusion. Just like animal runs after that desert water. But the intelligent man knows: "Oh, that, there is no water. It looks like water."

Svarupa Damodara: It is a reflection from the sand.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, there is no, actually there is no water. But the animal runs after that water and dies out of thirst. Because they, he cannot satiate his thirst by such illusory water. Similarly we, ignorant, avidya kama-karmabhih, we are trying to manufacture so many things to satisfy our thirst of joyfulness, but we are being baffled. Because it is illusion. Therefore real intelligence is: "Then where is the reality? Where is real water?" That is intelligence. Bhagavata gives: vastava-vastu vedyam atra. Vastava vastu. "Real reality, you'll find here." (end)