"Science Makes Everybody A Fool"

Mayapura, February 4, 1976


Prabhupada: Then, in the morning, it rises reddish. So why it does not look reddish always if it is fixed?

Harikesa: Well, the material scientists say it's because of the atmospheric condition. It refracts the light in such a way that it becomes reddish. That's what they say. Because it's thicker atmosphere. You have to look through more atmos...

Prabhupada: Then how it comes so high? After few hours it goes so high.

Harikesa: Well, there is less atmosphere to look through. Why it goes up there?

Prabhupada: So that means move?

Harikesa: No, no. Because we're moving this way. The earth is rotating.

Prabhupada: You are moving, but why you say sometimes this position and sometimes that position?

Harikesa: Because the earth also moves like this. It's going around the sun, and then every day it rotates once.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Harikesa: It rotates on an axis like this. So therefore the sun seems to go around, but actually it's the earth that goes around.

Prabhupada: Now, if you measure when this sun and when it comes meridian distance, so do you think the earth is moving so quickly? It is... According to their modern science, the earth is moving twenty-five thousand miles only throughout... No, within twenty-four hours.

Harikesa: That's around the sun.

Prabhupada: Huh? Then is it possible...

Jagadisa: Twenty-four-hour day, twenty-five thousand miles circumference.

Prabhupada: So how earth has gone so quickly round that it is seen, the different position of the sun? This means sun is not fixed. Sun is moving. And in the Bhagavata it is said that it is moving at the rate of sixteen thousand miles per second. I think I have calculated that. Sixteen thousand miles.

Hrdayananda: Prabhupada? Does that mean that the sun is going around the earth?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hrdayananda: Is the sun going around the earth?

Prabhupada: Sun is going around the whole planetary system.

Tamala Krsna: The scientists think the whole planetary system is going around the sun.

Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, earth is also moving?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bhavananda: Earth planet is also moving?

Prabhupada: Along with all other stars. That you can see at night.

Tamala Krsna: They are all moving around the polestar.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: So that means that the more we learn material education, (we're) just becoming more and more foolish.

Prabhupada: Yes. Material education means mudha. This is also material education, the movement of the sun. But they are not perfect.

Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, if the earth is moving so fast, why isn't everything blown off?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Bhavananda: Why are we not blown off the surface of this planet? Now it's moving so fast. How are we able to remain here and not be blown off?

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Bhavananda: The planet is moving...

Harikesa: He's saying, "We're moving, so therefore the wind should blow everybody off, the speed."

Hrdayananda: Why is everything so peaceful if we're moving so fast?

Prabhupada: Which is moving so fast?

Hrdayananda: Well, Bhavananda said...

Bhavananda: Planet, this planet is moving so fast, but it doesn't appear to be moving at all.

Prabhupada: Suppose a small ant is on some big wheel, does it feel anything, movement? A big wheel and a small ant. What he will feel? This is called relativity. Law of relativity. Why you are thinking that relatively you are very big? That is your foolishness. You are nothing, insignificant. Therefore you are surprised when Krsna appeared as Varaha-murti, to take the whole earth on His nose. Who will say it is mythology? You do not know how great Krsna can become. Mahato mahiyan. Anu... What is that?

Hrdayananda: Anor ani...

Sastriji: Anor aniyan anusmared yah.

Prabhupada: Anor aniyan mahato mahiyat. So He is greater than the greatest. Yasodamayi thought that "My child are eating earth? So show." She saw all the planetary system within His mouth. So she thought, "What is this? All right, don't do this." (laughs)

Hrdayananda: So to accept a spiritual master means that one has to learn everything again.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Hrdayananda: That to accept a spiritual master means that we have to learn everything over again. Practically everything we learned was incorrect.

Prabhupada: It is correct to some extent but... Just like you can see to some extent, but that does not mean you can see everything. You have got limited potency. This is called unlimited and limited. We are limited.

Harikesa: Actually I think it makes much more sense, because when the scientists say that the earth spins around this way very quickly, then his point is valid. Why we don't fall off or why we don't feel good?

Prabhupada: It is not quickly. It is only...

Harikesa: But when the Bhagavata says the whole thing moves, then there is no friction.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: Therefore it is still. It's not rubbing against everything because everything is moving.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this earth also. According to them it is going around the sun. But we don't feel anything. According to them. And according to..., it is running at the rate of twenty-five thousand miles, and if you, in airplane, it is going six hundred miles per hour, and still there is so many jerking. That is your creation, tiny machine. And God's creation, it is moving. Even it is moving, you cannot understand. That is perfect creation. Purnam. The word is purnam idam, everything perfect. Purnam idam purnam adah purnat purnam udacyate [Iso Invocation]. Because God is all-perfect, whatever He has created, they are all-perfect, relatively, all perfect. Just like this earth. It is all-perfect. Whatever you want, you inhabitants of this earth, they are all there. You want air, water, light? Everything is there. Purnam idam. Purnat purnam udacyate, purnasya purnam adaya. So you are using so much water, so much light; still, it is perfect. Just like the cultivation. Every year you are taking so much production. Still, again you can take. This is purnam idam, perfectly done. That is God's creation. This is body, you see. You have to capture something. You require some solid thing here. It is there. If it is..., it was soft, only skin, then you could not catch this. How perfectly it is done. It is required here, not the whole finger. This is called perfect creation. The sensation of sex is in a particular position, not everywhere, because if that sensation were not there, then nobody would feel sex, and there would be no creation. This is called perfect creation. The same sensation could have been here, there. No. That particular sensation is there to induce him. Similarly, everything is going on. How to fix it? Every body is made... Every body is made according to the work it has to do. You see? The pig, it has to eat stool. His mouth is made in a different way. The tiger has to eat meat; his mouth is made differently. This is called perfect creation.

Hrdayananda: And also among human beings, different human bodies are made differently.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. According to... Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu [Bg. 13.22]. So according to the guna he's infecting, the body is made. If you infect some disease, smallpox, then you must get the disease. There is no excuse.

Hrdayananda: So a devotee... It is said in Bhagavad-gita that a devotee is above the modes of nature.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hrdayananda: It is said in Bhagavad-gita, sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. So when a devotee becomes very advanced, does that means that he should not feel a particular, an inclination to do a particular work but simply want to serve Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise how they can give up sex life? Unless he is liberated, how he can give up sex life?

Harikesa: That's something which puzzles all the materialists.

Prabhupada: Mater... They are rascals, mudhas. Their only title is "mudha," ass. Visvanatha Cakravarti has described the karmis as mudhas. Karmis are lowest grade of mudhas. And above them the jnanis. And above them, muktas, liberated. And above them, bhakta. And above all bhaktas, krsna-bhakta. This is the graduation. So karmis, they are all mudhas.

Bhavananda: There are other kinds of bhaktas other than krsna-bhaktas?

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. Narayana-bhakta, visnu-bhakta. They are all Krsna, but above all of them is krsna-bhakta.

Bhavananda: Many people in India, they say they are siva-bhaktas.

Prabhupada: They are all in the material world, karmis. Karma-kanda, ritualistic ceremonies. Prahlada Maharaja has described them. What is that very word used? And meaning is "one who cannot control their senses." Avijita-indriya. Ajitendriyanam, ajita, "one who could not conquer the senses," they are called karmis. Ajitendriyanam. So all these penances, silence, meditation, then studying the Vedic literature, and so many things are there. Prahlada Maharaja, in one word he says, "They are meant for ajitendriyanam, one who could not conquer over the senses, for them." And for a devotee, one who is actually pure devotee of Krsna, he is sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Not that a tiny devotee can claim that he has overcome the influence of this world. No. This is called paramahamsa. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Not that because you have taken to devotional..., you have become immediately. The process has begun immediately, curing process. But we should not think that we have become perfect. That is wrong. Yajna-dana-tapah-karma na tyajyam. Therefore you must follow the regulative principles. As soon as you become a rascal -- "Now I have become advanced. I don't require to chant sixteen rounds. I can do whatever I like" -- then he has gone to hell. Upstart, immediately he becomes paramahamsa. He's a rascal. He was given the path of becoming paramahamsa. One is admitted in the school, he must learn, and one day he will become M.A. But simply by entering in the school, if he says, "I am M.A.," that is rascaldom. This is a chance. To become jitendriya is very difficult task. But it is easy if he immediately becomes a pure devotee. Anyabhilasita-sunyam: [Brs. 1.1.11] "Everything make zero, all desire, except Krsna consciousness." That is wanted. But that does not become very easily done. One has to try very rigidly; then he'll be paramahamsa. Therefore amongst the devotees, there are three grades: kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari, and uttama-adhikari. So if the kanistha-adhikari thinks that "I have become uttama-adhikari," then he's a rascal. He's a rascal. If he wants to imitate the uttama-adhikari, then he's a rascal.

Hrdayananda: Is that cheating propensity?

Prabhupada: Not cheating. Foolishness. It may not be cheating, but he does not know. Arcayam eva haraye pujam yat sraddhayehate... What is that? Na tad-bhaktesu canyesu...

Hrdayananda: Bhaktah prakrtah.

Prabhupada: Sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah. The beginning is arca, arcana. And because he was given the chance of arcana, if he thinks that "I become paramahamsa," then he's a foolish. It will take time. The process is there. Therefore preaching is madhyama-adhikari. One should take to preaching work gradually. When the preaching... Preachers, they have got discrimination, "Here is abhakta; here is bhakta." But in the paramahamsa stage, uttama-adhikari, he sees "Everyone is devotee. I am not devotee." That is uttama-adhikari. Just like Kaviraja Gosvami said, purisera kita haite muni se laghistha [Cc. Adi 5.205]. Sanatana Gosvami said that "I am born in low-grade family. My work is low grade." [break] ...issued that complaint? "I am the counterpart."

Sastriji: Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

Prabhupada: The laborers have not come yet? [break] ...Bhagavad-gita verse? Punyo gandhah prthivyam ca? What is the full sloka? Punyo gandhah prthivyam ca. That this flavor of the rose...

Tamala Krsna: "Original fragrance of the earth"?

Prabhupada: Yes. Out of that, most fragrant flavor, Krsna says, "I am directly that." So if you are Krsna conscious, having this flavor, he'll understand, "Here is Krsna." This is Krsna consciousness. Punyo gandhah prthivyam ca. This flavor is there all over this earth, but you cannot see it. That does not mean there is no God. But He is there.

Visvakarma: It would be easier for them if they didn't live in the cities, because the cities make it so hard for anybody to understand there is a God.

Prabhupada: After all, understanding... Therefore they are mudhas. They have to understand. If they do not understand, they remain mudha. That is human life. The human being should understand that "I am mudha, so I'll have to learn." And the Vedas says, "Then go to guru." Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "You must go if you want to learn." And if he remains mudha and speculates, then he remains mudha. He never gets the enlightenment. He remains continually... Mudha janmani janmani mam aprapyaiva [Bg. 16.20]. He cannot get God. Life after life, he will go on like that, mudha. Asurisu-yoni. Asurika-yoni. He'll remain completely ignorant about God, what was his function, only function to understand God during this life of human form of life. And so-called science wants to keep him rascal and mudha, that's all. Therefore we fight so much with these rascals, big rascals. They want to keep them. He is mudha, he is blind, and he's trying to lead other blind men. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam [SB 7.5.31]. Rascal does not know that he is hand and bound..., hand and leg, bound up by the laws of material; still he denies, that "I am independent. I can think independently. I can avoid God," and so many things. Therefore they are mudhas. He cannot do it. In every inch he is bound up, and still he is thinking, "independent." That is the first-class mudha. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. Every... Dark, darkness. He keeps himself in darkness. This life was given to him by nature to become liberated by understanding God, but he does not take care of. He is making plan: "We shall be happy like this. We shall be happy like this. We shall be happy like this." Therefore they are mudhas. That will not help him. He does not know that. And if he simply tries to understand Krsna, he becomes immediately liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah tyaktva deham punar janma naiti.. [Bg. 4.9].. Everything is there. But he will do so many plans, and nothing will be successful. He'll avoid Krsna. This is the first-class mudha. Athato brahma jijnasa, the Vedanta philosophy's first instruction: "Now you inquire about God. This is the only chance. As cats and dogs you cannot do that. Now, atha, atah. You have enjoyed your senses so much as cats, dogs, tigers, so on, so on. Now you devote to understand, inquiry." Athato brahma jijnasa.

Tamala Krsna: It's about five minutes to seven, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: We shall go? No.

Tamala Krsna: If you like. It's a little early still. You could walk out to the front gate today and see how they are painting.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Yes. So let us go. [break] ...says, uttisthata jagrata prapta-varan nibodhata.(?)Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, jiv jago, jiv jago. Still he will sleep in this human form of life and remain animal, cat and dog. A simple word, jiv jago, jiv jago. This is Vedic instruction. Uttisthata jagrata: "Get up. Be awakened. You have got this body. Try to understand God." That they will not do. They'll come to fight: "Oh, you are playing mrdanga at four o'clock and disturbing my sleeping?" This is going on. "Let me go to the police. You are trying to awaken me from my sleeping? You are trying to make me intelligent? Let me remain fool. Why you are disturbing me?" Maya's influence. Kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole. Simply wasting of time. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. The Gosvamis, they conquered over sleeping first, nidra, then eating. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau. What is this?

Bhavananda: It says, [break] "...when not in use."

Prabhupada: What is this?

Tamala Krsna: It's for the gate.

Prabhupada: So why it is like that? People may fall down.

Tamala Krsna: In other words, it should be up there in the day.

Prabhupada: [break] ...again mudha.

Sudama: [break] ...speaking about how they are complaining that we are waking them up. A very interesting story... In Hawaii for one year every day this one man living next door to us every morning would call the police force at guru-puja. So many cars would come, three, four police cars. So finally, after one or two weeks' coming, they would come very happily, and they would take prasada. So they came because he called, they had to follow his complaint, but they told me personally, "We are coming not to arrest you or complain. We like your activities. Please give us some prasadam."

Hrdayananda: Also in Caracas many, many police cars come to the temple for prasadam.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, I think your dhoti is pulling...

Hrdayananda: [break] ...that the people against us were trying to prove that we're not actually a real religion. So the judge became very angry at the other lawyer and stood up on his bench. The judge stood up and said, "Are you trying to say that these people are not a bona fide religion?" And the lawyer said, "No, your honor. No." (laughter)

Hari-sauri: In Sydney they spent ten thousand dollars, the council, compiling a case against us. Every day they used to come and film us and take names. And we didn't contest the case but just carried on sankirtana, and the judge threw them out of court. They spent ten thousand dollars -- it was a big scandal -- and lost the case. The judge said, "Why not let them go on the streets? They add a lot of color to the city."

Hrdayananda: [break] People are always asking about you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hm. [break] No, I shall go now. Is it direct flight? No.

Hrdayananda: It is very far away. Everyone is... Even the guests, everyone is always asking about Srila Prabhupada.

Tamala Krsna: I was wondering whether -- I was speaking with Sudama Maharaja -- whether it would be possible for him to come and be in the boat program with Sudama Maharaja. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- February 4, 1976, Mayapura