"Darwin's Speculation..."

San Francisco, July 18, 1975


Tamala Krsna: ...hoping to bring the buses here to take a photograph with you, Srila Prabhupada, this morning. [break]

Sri Govinda: ...Mr. Candra Ahuja Tir(?). He has loaned us the Continental which we have been using to drive you in.

Prabhupada: Oh. You are medical practitioner? [break] Cooler, cooler nowadays? [break] Then other big, big telescope, how many miles it can see?

Jayatirtha: You can see millions of miles.

Prabhupada: How many million? (laughter)

Jayatirtha: You can see light years away. Many, many, many millions of miles with the big ones.

Prabhupada: They can see four billion?

Jayatirtha: Maybe not four billion.

Prabhupada: Then it is imperfect. The radius, what is called, radius?

Tamala Krsna: Diameter?

Prabhupada: Diameter is four billion miles, universe.

Tripurari: One universe.

Prabhupada: One universe. This is the smallest. Four-headed Brahma. [break] ...all universes taken together, that is one-fourth energy. And three-fourth energy is spiritual world. Ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42], one part. [break] ...asat koti-yojana, one yojana equal to eight mile. And one koti means ten million. So fifty into eight, two hundred, into..., ten into ten million..., it comes. I have calculated four billion. How many millions make a billion?

Harikesa: A thousand. [break]

Prabhupada: Sun is situated in the middle from this circumference, two billion up and down. And the moon is situated above the sun, 1,600,00 miles. How they can go to the moon?

Devotee: They think the moon is closer than the sun.

Prabhupada: They may think, but we are thinking in this way. Who is right?

Devotee: We are right, the Vedas.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...thinking is right because they could not go to the moon. They say they went, but actually they could not. Now they are disappointed. [break]

Devotee: ...Prabhupada? He had some question whether Lord Nityananda ever took sannyasa.

Prabhupada: No. [break] ...went with the sannyasis as brahmacari. [break] ...philosophy?

Tamala Krsna: Philosophy book.

Harikesa: Philosophy book is waiting until...

Brahmananda: No, Hayagriva is editing it now.

Harikesa: Oh, now? Jaya.

Satsvarupa: We're going to do some of the chapters in installments in Back to Godhead. We're going to do Darwin as soon as possible, in a month or two. [break]

Prabhupada: ...philosophy is the ultimate, Vedanta. Vedanta philosophy. And Bhagavata is the commentary on the Vedanta philosophy. [break] ...Darwin's theory. Wherefrom he begins?

Jayatirtha: He begins in the ocean. He says that some fish-type animal climbed out of the ocean and began to breathe the air.

Prabhupada: Then wherefrom the ocean came?

Devotee: He doesn't say.

Sri Govinda: In the beginning on the planet there was great turbulence and the oceans were stirring, and then there was some lightning charge.

Prabhupada: Wherefrom the lightning came? And wherefrom the ocean came? Where his philosophy is? It is a speculation.

Sri Govinda: It all began from a primeval explosion.

Prabhupada: Then same question, wherefrom the explosion came?

Satsvarupa: They say that explosion began at time zero.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Satsvarupa: Time zero. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Time zero?

Satsvarupa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question.

Prabhupada: Why?

Satsvarupa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked.

Prabhupada: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero?

Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then.

Prabhupada: So that is not philosophy.

Sri Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter.

Prabhupada: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?"

Harikesa: They say it's an accident.

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say?

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Aham evasam agre. And Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anadir adih: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. That adi is Govinda, person, Krsna. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. We find from the history. Brahma is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. So He is the cause of Brahma also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy.

Harikesa: Darwin never tried to understand the...

Prabhupada: No, no, he admitted that he speculated. He is not a philosopher, he is a speculator. He has admitted that "It is my speculation. I think like this."

Harikesa: He started his speculation from the creation of life. He didn't...

Prabhupada: Anywhere, speculation is not science nor philosophy. We don't admit. No hypothesis.

Satsvarupa: They call the Vedas speculation. They say the Upanisads are speculation.

Prabhupada: No, no, no, not speculation. Isopanisad, isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], everything beginning from isa, the supreme controller... Where is speculation?

Tamala Krsna: They say that the Vedas are written by man so they are imperfect.

Prabhupada: So you are less than a dog. It is written by man. That's all right. But you are less than a dog. You have no reason, no right. What is your philosophy? What is the value of your philosophy? It is speculation. We don't say, "It is written by man." Apauruseya. They may say whatever they..., we don't say. If somebody says, "Your father name is that," and I know my father's name. "What you are? You are not authority to say what is my father's name. I know very well." So it is their suggestion like that, "Your father's name is this." We don't say that "My father name is..." Is that very good suggestion? You don't know anything of my family. How you say that "Your father name is this?" Is it not another rascaldom? You do not know anything about my family, and you say that "Your father's name is this." What is this logic? You cannot say what is my father's name. You do not know about my family.

Harikesa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological...

Prabhupada: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?

Satsvarupa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.

Prabhupada: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it.

Satsvarupa: Just this year they found a skull that was millions of years older than any human skull they found before.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible.

Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture.

Prabhupada: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.

Harikesa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.

Prabhupada: Yes, of the monkey-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey."

Brahmananda: Actually they are simply interested in bones, but this is the activity of the dog. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, he finds, (laughter) like that. So it is dog's philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] ...history in the I.A., intermediate. So a big professor, Dr. Kalidasa Nath, he began to speak, "There was stone age, simply stone there was," in this way. And I immediately..., that "What nonsense you are speaking, stone? There was nothing?" According to the anthropology of Darwin... From the very beginning, when I was a student, I did not believe this Darwin's theory. [break] ...study one after another, chronologically, as Darwin says, skull, it is not possible at all. For any single man it is not possible.

Tamala Krsna: 8,400,000 species.

Prabhupada: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation.

Tamala Krsna: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study.

Brahmananda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit...

Prabhupada: So that is not science.

Harikesa: It's the most important part too.

Prabhupada: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe.

Jayatirtha: Once you said the missing link was your foot in their face. (laughter) [break]

Prabhupada: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; deductive logic is perfect. [break] ...logic means srota-pantha, parampara, sruti, Vedic language, sruti. Sruti pramana. Pramana means evidence, and sruti means Veda. Pratyaksa, anumana, sruti. Pratyaksa means direct, direct evidence, and anumana, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And sruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, sruti-pramana is accepted as supreme, neither anumana nor pratyaksa. Pratyaksa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumana, guessing, that is also not perfect. And sruti, we take sruti from the perfect person, Krsna. He says, aham evasam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply.

Laksmi-narayana: Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that in the beginning of creation He sent forth generations of men among the demigods. So the bones that they have found of those...

Prabhupada: Hm?

Laksmi-narayana: I said the bones that they have found so far...

Prabhupada: Who?

Laksmi-narayana: Of the men that were living so many thousands of years ago.

Prabhupada: But they are not demigods.

Laksmi-narayana: No. But who are the bones... Where are those living entities now? Where they have gone?

Prabhupada: You can go to the higher planetary system and try to see there, bones of the demigods. Besides that, according to our sastra, when Brahma dies, then everything is finished. So you have no chance to see. Where is your chance? Because everything will be finished, you will be finished, everything finished, with the death of Brahma, so you cannot study Brahma's bones. Just like taste of potassium cyanide. As soon as you taste, you are finished. (laughter) So you cannot say what is the taste.

Laksmi-narayana: But the bones of those people that they've found, where are their bodies now? Have they gone to some other...?

Prabhupada: No, no, you might have found in your country. But that is not final that you have seen all the bones. [break] Darwin has... He is now dead. Now, even nowadays they are finding new bones. So how he studies perfect? He is now dead and gone.

Brahmananda: Actually they are finding bones now, they claim, that challenge his theory. They are much older than what he ever thought. So they have to change all the calculations.

Laksmi-narayana: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Laksmi-narayana: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. [break]

Jayatirtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death.

Prabhupada: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now. [break]

Devotee: If the Vedic culture was a superior culture, how come man gave up the Vedic culture to take to the materialistic life? one

Prabhupada: No one has given up. You are taking up. No one has given up.

Devotee: But five thousands years ago...

Prabhupada: That's all right. Otherwise how you are getting if it was given up? How you are getting now? It was not given up. Who says it was given up?

Devotee: Well, America was formed on a materialistic society.

Prabhupada: America may say, but if it was given up, then how you are getting now?

Brahmananda: Now Americans are taking it up.

Prabhupada: Yes. How it is given up?

Laksmi-narayana: They will say that it became dormant. Not that many people liked it anymore so...

Prabhupada: Not dormant. It is coming. It is coming. We have not lost it. It may be that a few people know it, but it is not lost. It is not that missing bone; it is not like that.

Devotee: They say like in Chicago they're so prosperous, but they don't worship Krsna.

Prabhupada: Who?

Devotee: Here in Chicago, there's so many big buildings and there's so much money.

Prabhupada: So building, what you will do with building? You have to leave the building and go to hell. What you are doing for that? So long, fifty years, you can lick up the building. Then, after all, you will be thrown into the hell. Then what you are going to do about that? If you cannot stay in the building, then what is the use of constructing building? Suppose you construct one building here and the policeman..., "No, you cannot stay here." Still you construct building?

Devotee: They say they live for sixty years, so enjoy it while they can.

Prabhupada: So that is foolishness. You are making, (imitates piledrivers sound) "Dung! Dung!" very solid, but you are not going to live. The "Dung! Dung!" but that's all. This is called foolishness.

Tamala Krsna: I think there was one great personality -- I forget his name -- he was going to live as long as how many millions of years that he had hairs in his head. What is that story?

Brahmananda: The story of the man who was on the beach...

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Romaharsana. Romaharsana Muni was standing on beach and was chanting. So Narada Muni was passing: "Then why don't you make a cottage here?" He was: "Oh, how long I shall...?" That, his life, was: when one hair will fall, one Brahma will die. (laughter) And in this way all the hairs, when they will fall -- all the Brahmas will die -- then he will die. And he was thinking, "How...?" Actually that is a fact.

Tamala Krsna: Who was that, Romaharsana Muni?

Prabhupada: Romaharsana. [break] ...basic principle of Vedic civlization. They did not... Vyasadeva, such a learned scholar, he was sitting in a cottage. Lord Siva, such a big powerful, and the whole material energy, Parvati, is his wife -- he is sitting under a tree.

Tamala Krsna: Therefore a sannyasi is always moving around, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. Vairagya. That is required. That is civilization. Vairagya and jnana. Jnana-vairagya, knowledge and renunciation, or detachment, this is the goal of human life. Because he is attached to this material world, he has to take birth after birth, birth after birth. So to save this botheration, one has to be detached. This is the basic principle of Vedic civilization, jnana-vairagya. And detachment is possible when one is in full knowledge, jnana. And this bhakti-yoga process is detachment. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. So it is a civilization of detachment, not attachment.

Tamala Krsna: That detachment is a form of wealth for the renounced order.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the gain of human life. Arthadam. This is meaning. Artha means meaning. Arthadam. Durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human life, form of life, is very, very rare. So one can say, "You will also die like cats and dog. How it is rare?" No, yes, adhruvam arthadam: "Although it is temporary, it will not stay, but you can have meaning of life." Adhruvam arthadam. Everything is there.

Tamala Krsna: The materialistic people say that... When they see someone in the detached position, they say, "He is impoverished." They are so confused that they conclude the opposite.

Prabhupada: Impoverished?

Tamala Krsna: Impoverished means they are poor.

Prabhupada: Then what is the poor? What you are rich? You are whole day working day and night, and we are not working, getting our prasadam. I am poverty-stricken, or you are poverty-stricken? You rascal, whole day you are working...

Brahmananda: For a dry biscuit.

Prabhupada: ...like an ass, and we are getting, sitting, chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So you are poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?

Tamala Krsna: A poverty-stricken man has to work very hard.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Laksmi-narayana: But they will say, "Well..."

Prabhupada: They will say... First of all you see. You try to understand that this rascal is working day and night twenty-four hours for getting his food, and we are simply chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So he is poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?

Brahmananda: That means we're the rich men.

Prabhupada: I am rich man.

Brahmananda: Rich man doesn't have to work, and everything comes.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is rich man. That is the explanation given by Marshall, a great economist. He says that unless one is obliged to work, nobody will work. That is his economic impetus. So the family affection gives impetus to work. He has to maintain the family. That is, he says, that is the beginning of economic development. Marshall theory. [break] ...krsna-sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. When there is attachment on account of Krsna, that is detachment. Yukta-vairagyam ucyate. He is attached to everything but not for his personal self. We are spending lakhs of rupees for constructing a temple, but we are not interested to construct a house or a skyscraper building. We are not interested. That is detachment. [break] We give up. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhe-vastunah: "No, no, we don't touch money." Why? If the money can be utilized for constructing a nice temple for Krsna, why we shall say, "We don't touch money"? Yes, give me as much money as you have got. Therefore you will find in India very, very big, big, costly temple, not skyscraper building. That is the sign. If any man had any money, he would spend it for Krsna, not for his personal self. Personally he would be satisfied with a cottage. That is India's civilization. You will find in South India one temple is more than a fort, bigger. It is impossible to construct such temple nowadays. Still you will find in Vrndavana that broken Govindaji's temple. If you construct such temple, even crores and crores of rupees will not be sufficient. That was done by Maharaja Mansingha, but you don't find any palace of Mansingha. He could have construct a palace there. No, he did not do. But for Govindaji, he spent so much money. There is no such thing, attachment, detachment. We must know that everything belongs to Krsna, and we are servants of Krsna. This knowledge is required. That is Krsna consciousness. And when you understand that everything is belonging to Krsna, then the next sense is that why not everything be used for Krsna? [break] ...theory is lost or not?

Tamala Krsna: Who?

Prabhupada: Bone theory, studying the bone.

Harikesa: I think you've broken the bone theory. (laughter) [break]

Prabhupada: (in car:) ...so where is your chance to study these colors?

Jayatirtha: That is a perfect explanation.

Harikesa: I'm going to send this tape and have them add that to the book. You defeated Darwin so quickly this morning it was wonderful.

Prabhupada: Yes, you can send. You have no chance to study. How you can theorize? (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 11, 1975, Chicago