"Crossing The Ocean As Fish"

San Francisco, July 18, 1975



Prabhupada: ...many buildings like this.

Jayatirtha: Yes. [break]

Prabhupada: ...there is one word, sva-langulena atithi tirtva sindhum. We see sometimes the dogs are swimming. (greets someone:) Good morning. If somebody thinks, "Oh, the dog is swimming, so let me capture the tail, and I shall swim. I shall cross." So similarly, those who are thinking, the so-called scientists, philosopher, will solve the problems, it is exactly like to cross over the Pacific Ocean by capturing the tail of a dog. (laughter) If one thinks that "Dog is sufficiently strong to carry me. So he is swimming, so I shall swim also," so following the dogs, capturing their tail, if one thinks that he will cross over the Pacific Ocean... Similarly, these so-called scientists, philosophers, are like dogs, and if anyone thinks that he will cross by capturing his tail, he will be baffled. [break] ...bomb scientist still living?

Bahulasva: Yes, he's still living.

Prabhupada: So, what he is doing now?

Bahulasva: Now he is retired.

Prabhupada: Oh. No more swimming.

Bahulasva: No more swimming.

Nalini-kantha: He's taking money from the government for his work so that he can live.

Prabhupada: Well, money is everyone is getting. The dog is also getting. Sometimes dog is inheriting the property of his master. But that does not mean he is not a dog.

Paramahamsa: About one month ago there was a very big story in the newspapers about how this student who went to all the archives in the Washington D.C. library, and from known records he compiled enough information to construct an atom bomb. Did you hear about that?

Prabhupada: No.

Paramahamsa: He became world famous. So they concluded that anyone who wanted to could get normal information from normal sources and theoretically construct an atom bomb. But they don't have the equipment, but they have the knowledge now. So they're proposing in that sense that any terrorist organization within the next five years will be able to invent their own atom bomb.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.

Bahulasva: He was bribing one city in Florida that "You pay me so much money or else I'm going to blow up your city." And he sent them the plans, "Here is the bomb." So they became very frightened. And when they traced the letter, they found that it was only a sixteen year old boy who had done this. [break]

Prabhupada: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive.

Brahmananda: You want one like that for Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yadubara: They have an organ here, Srila Prabhupada, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower.

Prabhupada: Which tower?

Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies.

Devotee: As they fall off. [break]

Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. [break] This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.

Tamala Krsna: They are simply expert at accelerating death.

Prabhupada: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?

Paramahamsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.

Prabhupada: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. [break] ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. [break] ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Krsna puts it: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?

Paramahamsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...

Prabhupada: Everyone now. India has also.

Paramahamsa: They're all afraid of using them.

Prabhupada: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.

Paramahamsa: Yeah, right. History.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.

Tamala Krsna: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Siva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.

Prabhupada: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.

Bahulasva: That is why they have wars, just so they can use up the weapons.

Prabhupada: Oh yes.

Paramahamsa: The only difficulty is that if one person uses the atomic weapon, that means entire, it would be entire waste of mankind. So everyone's afraid of using the ultimate.

Prabhupada: Well, anyway, they must be used. There is no doubt about it. Therefore we can say there will be war. It is no astrology. It is natural conclusion.

Tamala Krsna: Common sense.

Paramahamsa: That'd mean total destruction.

Prabhupada: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used.

Bahulasva: Now they like to blow them up in the ground. The scientists like to play by blowing them up in the ground.

Tamala Krsna: Or in the sea.

Bahulasva: They create big disturbances.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend -- ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Krsna.

Tamala Krsna: But a pure devotee is a friend to all.

Prabhupada: Because he carries the message of Krsna. Krsna is friend, and he is carrying the friendly message. Therefore he is friend. If there is a nice friend and if somebody gives information of that nice friend, he is also friend. Therefore nobody can become friend except Krsna's representative. The material world is: "I am your enemy, and you are my enemy." This is the whole construction of the material world. So how the enemy can become friend? It is pretension, cheating.

Devotee: When we go out to distribute books, we try and show the karmis that the devotee is actually their friend also.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, certainly. That is the real friendship work. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole,

enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'

hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'

This is friendship. "You are sleeping under the spell of maya, and how long you will sleep and suffer in this material world? So I have brought this medicine. You take it and you will no more sleep."

enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'

hari-nama maha-mantra lao...

"Now take Hare Krsna mantra, this medicine."

hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'

Bahulasva: So all relationships in this material world are...

Prabhupada: Inimical.

Bahulasva: Based on this enemy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bahulasva: Even the so-called love.

Prabhupada: No, that is lust. That is not love. And as soon as my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then you are my enemy. [break] If we take shelter of any materialistic person, that is like to take the..., capture the tail of a dog and try to swim over the Pacific Ocean. It is like that. [break]

Nalini-kantha: ...ing that we should not give people anything other than Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: And what you have to give? First of all you consider what you have to give. What you have got to give?

Nalini-kantha: I was thinking that sometimes the devotees engage in business, selling so many things to help the temples, and you were saying that we should not do that?

Prabhupada: If you are business-minded, you can do that. Do business and give the result to Krsna. [break]

Brahmananda: ...planting a tree. And here are the animals. The tiger and the lizard, fish.

Prabhupada: So what is the meaning?

Bahulasva: This is zoology. They study all the animals.

Prabhupada: Not himself?

Bahulasva: Well, they think they get an idea of man by studying the animals.

Brahmananda: Catching the tail of the dog.

Bahulasva: Of the crab. Then they come to conclude that since all the animals do is eat, sleep, mate and defend, man should also just do that.

Prabhupada: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the sastra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans" -- the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. [break]

Paramahamsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Krsna consciousness be more easy to spread?

Prabhupada: No, threat is already there. But they are so fool that they are not afraid of the threat. Threat is already there. Everyone will die. That is the problem. So who is caring for this? They are avoiding this. They cannot take any anti measures.

Yadubara: So it will take a war to bring them to their senses a bit?

Prabhupada: No, war is going on. But they are so senseless that they will not come to this, so rascal. Therefore they are described as mudha, all rascals.

Tamala Krsna: Very hard to preach to these fools, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: These people are so stupid, it is very difficult to preach to them.

Prabhupada: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Krsna. That will be...

Dhira Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dhira Krsna: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here.

Prabhupada: You think you will not die?

Dhira Krsna: I know I will, but how can we realize that, come to the platform of realizing?

Prabhupada: Everyone is dying, your father is dying, your mother is dying, your friend is dying, and still if you cannot understand, then how it will be possible to make you understand? Every day you see so many people are dying. Ahany ahani lokani gacchanti yamalayam iha. Every moment, every day, we see so many animals or men are dying. Sesah sthitam icchanti kim ascaryam... But those who are living he is thinking, "I will not die." Death is inevitable but still, he is thinking, "I will not die." Therefore that is the problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. This is the problem. Nobody wants to die, but everyone is dying. That problem this rascal scientist cannot solve. Therefore they are like dogs, and to catch their tail is like that. Yes. And that is the real problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die.

Jayatirtha: The Saivites go down to the burning ghatas. The Saivites, they go down to the place where the bodies are being burned in order to meditate on the fact that everyone is going to die.

Prabhupada: What is meditation? Without meditation even, one can understand, if he is intelligent.

Jayatirtha: Yes. So much trouble.

Bahulasva: So one must become convinced philosophically.

Prabhupada: Why philosophically? Philosophy means, at the present moment, mental concoction. We don't say that. Philosophy means to find out the reality. That is philosophy, not that "I think like this. He thinks like this. He thinks like this." That is not philosophy; that is mental concoction, hovering over the mental plane. Philosophy is here. Krsna says, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam: [Bg. 13.9] "Keep always in your front that there is death, there is birth, and try to save yourself from this." This is philosophy. What is this hot air?

Bahulasva: It is coming from the heating system of the university. They have a nuclear heating system.

Paramahamsa: Is that nuclear waste?

Bahulasva: Yes. They have a reactor on the campus. [break]

Prabhupada: ...they require so many scientist to get heat from the nuclear system, then who has created the sun to diffuse so much heat? How great scientist He is. They have no sense that who has created the sun's nuclear system, that heating the whole universe.

Bahulasva: They can't even measure how much heat is coming from the sun.

Jayatirtha: They say that the sun is inefficient because in some places it's too hot and in some places it's too cold, so therefore they have to make the adjustment by making the air conditioners and the heaters in order to make up for the sun's inefficiency.

Prabhupada: But who is getting this advantage?

Paramahamsa: Big businessmen.

Bahulasva: Actually, the fact is that now the scientists are spending so much money on this research, but the research is only being used in their personal homes. The common people have never seen any of these great devices. This one devotee, Jayarama, his uncle is a big scientist. He has created this radio telescope. So I saw pictures of his personal home, and it must cost about $300,000. All these scientific devices he has. But the people never see those things. [break]

Paramahamsa: ...and for all the success of scientific advancement, they have not created any love for God or their fellow man.

Prabhupada: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Krsna. Then their science is perfect. Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22], education, tapasya, svistasya suktasya ca buddha-dattayoh, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhih nirupito. Kavibhih, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vasudevah sarvam..., Krsna is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutah arthah kavibhir nirupito. Kavibhih means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Krsna is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhagavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original -- everything original. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. Govinda is the origin of everything. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Vasudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Krsna, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air?

Bahulasva: The scientists now, they have been studying the different atoms. They say that the origin is what they call pure energy. And they describe that as a disembodied electrical charge.

Prabhupada: Jugglery of words, that's all.

Bahulasva: Their idea is very close to the Brahman conception, though. They think that one pure energy is pervading the whole universe.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bahulasva: And it has no material properties.

Prabhupada: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh?

Bahulasva: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Then wherefrom this electric energy is coming? Where is the generating house? You cannot say that electric ener..., so many electrical light, they have come all of a sudden, no. There is a regular generating house. So where is that generating house? What is their reply?

Bahulasva: They have none.

Dhira Krsna: You may get some of them to admit that they don't know, but then they'll think, "No one knows." They will say, "Well, no one knows that."

Prabhupada: No, because you are rascal, therefore you cannot say that everyone is rascal. You rascal, you do not know. But we know because we are not rascals. We know. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So we know. You do not know, you rascal. But we know. Then what is the answer?

Dhira Krsna: Well, I said that once to a professor, and I was dressed in plain clothes, and then he became very upset, and he said, "I thought I was talking to a book salesman, and now I find out that you're a preacher."

Prabhupada: (chuckles) He is gentleman. He has admitted. A gentleman, if he commits some mistake, he admits, "Yes." He is gentleman. And if he persists on his mistake, he is rascal. He is a rascal. So he is a gentleman. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco