"Primordial Criminality"

Mayapura, February 5, 1976



Hrdayananda: One theory is that there has always..., the material nature has always existed. It was never created, and it will never be annihilated, and there is no other cause. It's simply an eternal fact.

Prabhupada: But how always existed? Nothing here ever exists... This house was never existed. It's created.

Hrdayananda: But the elements existed.

Prabhupada: Elements exist, that's all right, but the format, how it is created?

Hrdayananda: They say it's not created. It's an eternal, unexplainable fact.

Prabhupada: Ha ha. That he is a foolish. That is rascal. Immediately rascal is captured.

Indian man: Srila Prabhupada? (Hindi)

Prabhupada: [break] Unexplainable, that means why he is trying to explain, rascal? Immediately captured.

Harikesa: You may all laugh now, but in the future we're going to find a solution.

Prabhupada: That is another rascaldom. "I am rascal, and future I am going to be very intelligent." Talk of presence. You are, at the present moment, you are rascal. That's all. Don't talk. Rascal cannot talk.

Hrdayananda: Another theory which is taught...

Prabhupada: So this theory is rascaldom. Then another theory...?

Hrdayananda: Is that actually God created everything, but after creation God is no lon...

Prabhupada: No, then... No, that's all right, "God created everything." That means acceptance of God. Then we come to the science of God, what is God.

Hrdayananda: Well, God created, but now God is...

Prabhupada: Don't imagine. I am asking what is the current theory.

Hrdayananda: Yes, that God is... God now is in a dormant condition.

Harikesa: God is dead.

Prabhupada: God is dead. After creating, He is dead.

Harikesa: He used Himself up.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: No, but, no, they say... No, that's not what they say. They say that God created, and now God is in a dormant condition.

Prabhupada: Whatever condition, there is God. That you have to accept.

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, what is that God?

Hrdayananda: Well, God does not directly take part in the material creation. He simply created...

Prabhupada: That's all right, but He creates by His energy. Just like I am creating this institution, but I am not doing directly, but my men or my assistants, they are doing it. (sound like conch) What is this sound?

Tamala Krsna: Intercom.

Prabhupada: So why this intercom? Inter...?

Hrdayananda: To speak from one room to another.

Tamala Krsna: It connects the pujari room and... It connects the pujari room, the office, your secretary, and up here, Bhavananda Maharaja.

Prabhupada: [break] ...accepted, now He created and that... What is that next? Explain.

Hrdayananda: Now God is dormant, in a dormant condition.

Prabhupada: What is that dormant?

Hrdayananda: He has no more activity. He simply created, and now He has no more activity.

Prabhupada: Well, "no more activities," that's all right, but He is active. Suppose I am walking. I may not walk half an hour. That means I have got the capacity of walking. That you cannot say, that my walk... Because I have now stopped walking, you cannot say that I cannot walk. Is another nonsense. How you can say "dormant"? He is active.

Tamala Krsna: Dormant implies He was active.

Prabhupada: Yes. Was active, He is active, but you, you rascal, you cannot see. You cannot say, "Once He was active. Now He is no more active. He has finished His activity." That you cannot say. Dormant? What do you mean by dormant? Huh? Dormant means potential. He can act. And He is acting. That acting you have to learn, how He is acting. He appears to be not acting, but He is acting. That is knowledge. Just like airplane is running. A intelligent man knows that "The pilot is there. He is acting. Therefore it is running." And a foolish man will say, "The airplane is going automatically." That is the question of observation. A foolish boy... I have given this example many times, that I was thinking that in the fan there is a ghost. But the idea is, there must be somebody. Although I was a child... I could not explain how the fan is running in my childhood. I was thinking there must be some ghost. And in the gramophone box I was thinking there must be one man within this box. So this is foolish thinking, but I was convinced that without somebody, it cannot sing or it cannot run. Even one is very innocent child, he can think like that. So whole thing is going on, prakrti, the activities of material nature... Just like there was cloud and rain. Now it is not raining. So there is activity already. It is being managed. So you cannot say that God is dormant. He is acting because His creation is acting, and God says that mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My direction the nature is working." How you can say He is dormant? The nature is working?

Harikesa: Well, just like a man may make a chemical reaction in the beginning by mixing two or three chemicals, but then the reaction takes place by itself. It doesn't need the man once he started it.

Prabhupada: No, doesn't need the man... He is needed for another reaction. That will not take automatically.

Tamala Krsna: So another theory is why you have to say that there is a cause? It was always there. There was no cause. It was always there...

Prabhupada: No, it is caused. Why do you say "God created"?

Tamala Krsna: No, we say there is no God, and the creation was always there. There's no question of it not being there.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: There was always there. There was always...

Harikesa: It's eternal.

Tamala Krsna: It's eternal. There's no question of any creator being required. It is there.

Prabhupada: No. Then why do you say, "God created and He became...?"

Tamala Krsna: We don't say.

Prabhupada: He said.

Hrdayananda: He's another rascal. (laughter)

Tamala Krsna: He has... He is some sentimentalist, a fanatic, religious fanatic.

Prabhupada: Then you talk. He said "God created." You say not. Then you talk. Now you decide. Now he has accused you that you are a nonsense.

Tamala Krsna: He's a religious fanatic. I told him, he's a religious fanatic.

Prabhupada: Not fanatic. Hare Krsna.

Tamala Krsna: You have no explanation, so you're simply giving it the name God.

Prabhupada: No, why not explanation? Why not explanation, that "Nature is working"? He said that "God is dormant. God created," and he accepted. And "God is dormant. He is not doing anything." But no, that's not the fact. The nature's work is going on.

Tamala Krsna: Nature is going on.

Prabhupada: So the nature is directed by God.

Tamala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: Why not?

Tamala Krsna: It's not. It's moving of its own accord.

Prabhupada: Then he is another rascal. Nature cannot work automatically. Just like mother. Nature-mother. The mother cannot produce child without father.

Tamala Krsna: Right. Father and mother required.

Prabhupada: Yes. So how do you say, "The mother is producing child without any father"? That you cannot say.

Tamala Krsna: No, but why are you comparing nature to a father and mother?

Prabhupada: This is also nature. Everything is nature. Are you outside nature? That is another nonsense. Your body is nature; your activities are nature; everything is nature. How you can say you are out of nature? Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. He has got some intelligence, I have got some intelligence, but the intelligence is coming from nature. Otherwise how you are intelligent? Somebody is intelligent; somebody is dull. Unless there is some background, how do you find the difference? Here you see some flower is red, some flower... Why? How it is being done? You cannot say "automatically."

Tamala Krsna: No, we say... We agree, everything came originally from some elements.

Prabhupada: That "some" He has explained. He is God.

Tamala Krsna: No, we don't... We say that those elements were always there. There is no need of any creator of those elements. They were always there.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Tamala Krsna: They are the basic elements.

Prabhupada: Yes, "always there," but there must have been creation of these elements. Just like in the laboratory, you... Soda bicarb. Carbonate mixed with soda makes soda bicarb. Sulfuric acid. You take sulphur and turn into acid by mixing with something else. That is going on.

Tamala Krsna: But the original elements were there. There's no need of any creator.

Prabhupada: You are already... That you know, do not know, but the original elements also produced. That is not automatic. Anything you are taking...

Tamala Krsna: Well, we have no... How can you say what happened so many years ago?

Prabhupada: We don't say, "so many years." We say it is created by...

Tamala Krsna: What is your proof?

Prabhupada: Proof? What proof you want?

Tamala Krsna: Well, what is your proof of what happened millions of years ago at the beginning of creation? You say that...

Prabhupada: No, the same thing is going on. Millions of years there was sunrise. Now sunrise is still going on. Do you think that millions of years there was no sunrise? It is going on. The same thing is going on now here. Because you are foolish, you cannot see. Nothing has changed. The same thing is going on. Millions of years the father-mother combined and there was child, and that is going on still.

Harikesa: Oh, no. No, no, no. That's only been going on for about three thousand years.

Hrdayananda: No, no, even the scientists don't say that.

Harikesa: Yeah. Four or five thousand years.

Hrdayananda: No, no, no, scientists don't say that.

Harikesa: At most, fifteen thousand years, they say.

Hrdayananda: No, no, no, they don't say that. You have to keep up to date. It makes good arguments.

Harikesa: What do you mean?

Hrdayananda: They don't... They say now millions of years.

Tamala Krsna: What? Human beings?

Hrdayananda: Yes. How to present good arguments.

Harikesa: Millions of years?

Hrdayananda: Yes, they say that.

Jagadisa: One scientist said that.

Hrdayananda: No, no, no. It's accepted.

Harikesa: Really?

Hrdayananda: Yes, I've seen many quotes.

Tamala Krsna: I was in an anthropology department. They don't accept millions of years. They said forty thousand years ago there were no...

Prabhupada: And what was before forty thousand years?

Tamala Krsna: Apes.

Prabhupada: Yes. And wherefrom the apes came?

Tamala Krsna: Lesser..., lesser-mentality beings. Everything originated...

Prabhupada: So anything is a development. That is, therefore, called Darwin's theory of evolution. But where the evolution begins? That is the question.

Tamala Krsna: It begins from these primordial elements.

Prabhupada: So where that elements came?

Tamala Krsna: They were always there. They are eternal.

Prabhupada: Then? Then why you say, "From this time it begun"? Everything is eternal. There is no question of beginning.

Tamala Krsna: Why is because it developed?

Prabhupada: Yes. All rascals, simply rascals.

Tamala Krsna: Well, it's not very easy for us to give good argument with these bogus...

Harikesa: We can't even keep up with their theories.

Hrdayananda: The main argument among the philosophers, the atheistic philosophers, is that "God could not exist because if God existed, if God were good, then why would we be suffering? God would stop our suffering."

Prabhupada: Because you are criminal.

Tamala Krsna: Right. If your father's good...

Prabhupada: Eh? No, it is criminal. That is... You say that there are so many persons in the state. Not all of them are suffering in the prisonhouse. Only the criminals. So that is the proof that you are a criminal.

Hrdayananda: God could have... God could have created me in such a way that I would never have fallen down.

Prabhupada: He has created, but He has given you independence.

Jagadisa: God wants us to enjoy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Kasirama: Why has He given us that independence if in that independence we...?

Prabhupada: Then you are not living being. You are dull stone. God does not want that you remain a stone.

Tamala Krsna: "Free will" means living being.

Hari-sauri: But if he gave us the material world to enjoy, then why do we have to suffer here?

Prabhupada: No, no, enjoyments... You do not know what is enjoyment. You suffer. Just like you are voracious eater. You eat and then suffer. Then no eating. That means you are nonsense. You do not know how much to eat. Just like you require little salt with your food, and if you put one ser of salt, then that is your foolishness. Because salt has to be eaten, it does not mean that you bring the whole ocean to make it salty. Tena tyaktena bhunjitha [Iso mantra 1]. That is the instruction.

Tamala Krsna: So if you know how to...

Prabhupada: Whatever direction is there, you take that. The medicine is given. Doctor gives direction. "So many drops you can take." Now you say, "Oh, the good medicine. Let me eat the whole thing. I become cured immediately." Then you die. You have to take, enjoy, but according to direction. God does not say that "You don't enjoy." You are, what is called, anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). A living entity means anandamaya, enjoyment. But that ananda, where it is permanent ananda, how we have to reach that permanent ananda, that is being taught. Otherwise, you foolish, you'll eat the whole medicine and die. That's all. Therefore the varnasrama-dharma. Varnasrama-dharma means that is real human civilization. There is direction that "You enjoy like this." And if you become mlecchas and yavanas, then you'll not enjoy. You simply suffer. You do not know how to enjoy.

Tamala Krsna: So if one abides by the law of God, then he can become happy.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Tamala Krsna: God has made that arrangement.

Prabhupada: That is stated in Visnu Purana.

varnasramacara-vata

purusena parah puman

visnur aradhyate pantha

nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

[Cc. Madhya 8.58]

That is said, varnasrama-dharma. Therefore, according to Vedic civilization, unless one comes to the regulation of varnasrama-dharma, that is not human civilization. That is actually the fact. That is the same dog's society. That is going on. If there is no brahmana, qualified brahmana, who will give direction? There is no... If there is no ksatriya, then who will give protection? If there is no vaisya, then who will produce food? And if there is no sudra, then who will work for general assistance? This is scientific.

Harikesa: You have defeated us all again.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Harikesa: We are all defeated.

Prabhupada: You?

Harikesa: Everyone.

Prabhupada: Without varnasrama-dharma there is no civilization. Yes. They are trying to abolish this under the name of "caste system." It is not caste system. Caste system, or whatever you call, there must be these four division. Not four, eight. This is general, that brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Then, according to the brahminical culture, the spiritual, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. And after sannyasa, then spiritual life, complete, suddha-sattva. Hare Krsna. So you have to establish varnasrama. Varnasramacara. Acara. Acara. Varnasrama acara. Yes. Because the aim is... Again we come to the... Just like state affairs going on, but ultimate aim is to keep the government satisfied. Then you'll get everything nicely. Similarly, the supreme government or supreme governor is God. That is your duty, to keep Him satisfied. Then you get all direction, all facilities and life. That is the aim. But these rascals, they do not know what is government or who is the governor. They are doing anything whimsically, and they're punished. Prakrti is there. Prakrti is there. Government does not want that you suffer, but you violate the government's law. Therefore you suffer. That these rascals do not understand. They declare, "There is no government." So this is foolishness, ignorance, mudha. There is government, he sees, and still he is rascal. He says, "No, no, I don't care for anyone. There is no government." That is atheism; that is hooliganism.

Hrdayananda: So the so-called...

Prabhupada: He is dying. He doesn't want to die, but still he says, "There is no authority." He's suffering. He is becoming old. He doesn't want to become old, but he is so rascal, he does not question, "Why I am becoming old?" So therefore they are all rascals. He says, "I am independent," but he is forced to do something, and still he is independent. What is the remedy? Just like prisoner. He doesn't want to obey. The... A constable comes and kicks him, slaps him. Still, he says, "No, I am independent. I don't care for you." What is this? Hm? (Bengali?)

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, it's time to go downstairs, if you want to walk outside...

Prabhupada: What is the time?

Tamala Krsna: Five minutes past seven now.

Prabhupada: So they have not come, the workers?

Jagadisa: They are there. [break]

Hari-sauri: ...without birth, death, disease and old age, then we can simply say that "You already were like that before, but you gave it up because of your mentality."

Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?

Hari-sauri: A person already has the position where he doesn't have to experience birth, death, old age, like that. So if they argue like that, "Why doesn't God give us that position where we can enjoy without God consciousness...?"

Prabhupada: God has given, giving you the position that "You obey Me, and you get the position," but because you are rascal -- you are not obeying -- you are suffering.

Tamala Krsna: Just like a hog takes stool instead of sweetmeat. The hoggish mentality.

Prabhupada: That is God's mercy that he wants to eat stool, and God has given you, "All right, you eat stool. Take this body."

Tamala Krsna: Not that God is not offering him sweetmeats, but the rascal won't eat them.

Prabhupada: Yes. He has got such a body that he does not relish sweetmeat.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada! Haribol!

Kasirama: Srila Prabhupada, why do we have this rascal propensity?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Kasirama: Why do we have this rascal propensity?

Prabhupada: Because you are rascal. That is the only reason. Because you are rascal.

Gurukula boys: Prabhupada! Prabhupada! (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- February 5, 1976, Mayapura