Prabhupada: But still, he did it.
Arjuna, in the beginning, thought that he should not kill. Come on.Devotee
(1): He's ready downstairs. [break]
Prabhupada: ...can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air.... You are.... Air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi.... Just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air. It is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist. Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second.... So why do you say, "Now, now the breathing is stopped." Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hm?
Guru-krpa: They have no answer.
Pusta Krsna: The cells have died.
Prabhupada: Seller?
Pusta Krsna: Tiny cells in the body have died.
Prabhupada: Then don't say that "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things.
Guru-krpa: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood.
Prabhupada: Nothing. Artificial blood.... Superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements, air, water.... Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future.... In inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare an ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say, "In future I shall do it"?
Pusta Krsna: Some of these creature don't even have hearts.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Pusta Krsna: Some of the insects don't even have hearts.
Prabhupada: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop. You cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation.
Pusta Krsna: You mean to say...
Prabhupada: I have seen very minute, walking very..., exactly like a big...
Guru-krpa: In Vrndavana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence.
Pusta Krsna: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies.
Prabhupada: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your vers.... I say that "When he is doing everything like a human being he has got everything." It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that.... Just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Krsna says, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61]. When Isvara is in everyone's heart, how you can.... Hrd-dese. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense.
Pusta Krsna: So this is speaking of the material heart.
Prabhupada: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent.
Pusta Krsna: (laughs) Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna said, sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese, specifically said, "within the heart." The.... Even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Krsna says, hrd-dese?
Pusta Krsna: Sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese. Every living entity.
Prabhupada: Eh? And you say there is no.... You are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read.
Pusta Krsna: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body?
Prabhupada: Then.... Heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution.
Harisauri: In the Katha Upanisad it describes how they're sitting side by side.
Prabhupada: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart.
Pusta Krsna: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also.
Prabhupada: Then what is the.... I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no.... And what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Krsna says clearly, hrd-dese 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra, machine. So as machine means, moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place.... Everything is there, machine.
Pusta Krsna: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart.
Prabhupada: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part(?). What is that? Spi...? Begins the word, the machine, the record?
Devotee (2): Spirograph.
Prabhupada: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine...
Devotee 2: Cardiograph.
Prabhupada: Cardiograph, like that.
Pusta Krsna: Cardiograph.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Sensation.
Prabhupada: No, no, the machine is called some special name.
Harisauri: The same idea as cardiograph.
Pusta Krsna: Spectograph?
Prabhupada: Spectograph, yes.
Pusta Krsna: Has to do with light?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine.
Pusta Krsna: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life have no such circulatory system, pumping blood or even oxygen.
Prabhupada: Why not?
Pusta Krsna: Well, that's the contention at present.
Prabhupada: Hm. But we can take that...
Guru-krpa: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Guru-krpa: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live.
Prabhupada: Yes. So what is the wrong there?
Guru-krpa: Then there's three hearts?
Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut a living entity, he can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hm? Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire: "Let the rooms be like this." Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother, mix. It creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now, according to the desire of the living being, he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing, earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body, a different body for the man, a different body for the animal.... (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you.
Mike Barron: A little crooked. Jaya. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Thank you.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here at home.
Prabhupada: You have seen this news?
Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mike Barron: Just along those lines.
Guru-krpa: What do you think of that article?
Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much.
Prabhupada: You liked?
Mike Barron: No.
Prabhupada: Why?
Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it.
Prabhupada: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence...
Devotee (3): Like to sit there?
Prabhupada: ...that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh?
Mike Barron: No.
Prabhupada: Then how do you say it is joking?
Mike Barron: Er, no, I.... The actual context.
Prabhupada: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference?
Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that.
Prabhupada: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding.... That is.... In Sanskrit word it is said, aham brahmasmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says, "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct?
Mike Barron: No. Does Krsna consciousness make you aware of this, though?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Krsna consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Krsna consciousness.
Mike Barron: How long.... It's hard to say. How long does it take for...
Prabhupada: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important; the pilot is important.
Mike Barron: The same with the body...
Prabhupada: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say, "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is.... You can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "Hans! Phans!" just like bellows. That's not possible.
Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Krsna consciousness? Can you without...
Prabhupada: No, that awareness means Krsna consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing.
Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Krsna movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it.
Prabhupada: The.... Our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, then, if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position. That is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body; he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog?
Mike Barron: None.
Prabhupada: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system, to understand what is that living force, without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education?
Mike Barron: What do you call that force?
Prabhupada: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing, the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding.
Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again?
Prabhupada: I have already explained that, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education.
Mike Barron: And how long.... You'll continue this until...
Prabhupada: Well...
Mike Barron: ...until you die.
Prabhupada: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to.... We have got so many books, eighty-four books, writing on this science. (aside:) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circle. [break] ...written not jokingly. It is a great science.
Mike Barron: Where do you.... You might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though?
Prabhupada: The Vedas, Vedic literature.
Mike Barron: What goes into this?
Prabhupada: Vedas. Vedic literature, Sama, Yajur, Rk, Atharva, Upanisad, then Bhagavata, Bhagavad-gita, so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge.
Devotee (3): If we could.... If we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike?
Mike Barron: Hmm.
Pusta Krsna: I'll do it.
Prabhupada: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously.
Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way.
Guru-krpa: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go.
Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we.... You know, what people consider to be the false guru, is that all right with you?
Prabhupada: Yes, any.... Guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher. He is cheater.
Mike Barron: And there are some around.
Prabhupada: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, ABCD. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge.
Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge?
Prabhupada: That is.... That you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant.... This is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed: "What is that living condition?" That is yoga or meditation, to find out what is the real.... Analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system, to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system.
Cameraman(?): Somebody move up.
Mike Barron: Yes. Do you have a two-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards?
Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep my front out as much as you can. Don't.... (talks about filming)
Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Krsna consciousness, what it does mean?
Prabhupada: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Krsna is the most important thing.
Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Krsna movement is progressing throughout the world and particularly throughout Australia?
Prabhupada: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and.... They are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient.
Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome?
Prabhupada: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education.
Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus.
Prabhupada: So why you bring guru? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do?
Mike Barron: But there are people...
Prabhupada: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want.
Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat?
Prabhupada: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupada: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life?
Mike Barron: To be happy in myself.
Prabhupada: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said "dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all.
Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out?
Prabhupada: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness?
Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that?
Prabhupada: Find out.... But then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness.
Mike Barron: Can you tell me?
Prabhupada: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die: you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man: you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This is unhappiness. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Mike Barron: And Krsna consciousness can help me attain this?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Krsna consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die; I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness.
Mike Barron: Thank you.
Guru-krpa: Jaya Prabhupada.
Mike Barron: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]
Devotee (3): ...which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it.
Prabhupada: Take that book. Take his book. No, I.... (tape of Prabhupada plays in background, laughter)
Mike Barron: I'll think about that.
Prabhupada: That is the lack of Krsna consciousness. (background talking, commotion) [break] Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this.
Harisauri: She's asking how many do we sell.
Prabhupada: Sell? That I have given, estimate.
Pusta Krsna: With our standing orders we sell them all.
Carol Jarvis (Woman Interviewer): Oh, no, I mean, how many do you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day?
Guru-krpa: Yeah, maybe.
Pusta Krsna: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands.
Prabhupada: Twenty thousand dollar daily.
Guru-krpa: Minimum.
Prabhupada: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars.
Carol Jarvis: A day?
Prabhupada: Day. All over the world.
Pusta Krsna: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking)
Prabhupada: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history.
Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries?
Prabhupada: All over the world. Especially in Europe, America.
Harisauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are also inquiring.
Guru-krpa: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Srila Prabhupada writes, there is standing order. Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California...
Pusta Krsna: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these...
Prabhupada: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: You have read that?
Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't.
Prabhupada: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture.
Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation-about filming? Machine makes whirring sound)
Prabhupada: It is breathing? (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.)
Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Krsna movement?
Prabhupada: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Maharaja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore...
Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life -- before this you were married. You were a businessman.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly?
Prabhupada: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress.
Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking?
Prabhupada: It is not my way of thinking; it is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking. It is natural demand of the body.
Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Krsna movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths?
Prabhupada: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking, that "I am hungry. I require..." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way.
Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Krsna movement?
Prabhupada: So if, if.... At least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boys. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men.
Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary?
Prabhupada: If you want real happiness.... That I have already explained. Real happiness -- to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Krsna consciousness.
Carol Jarvis: Insurance for what?
Prabhupada: No more.... No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness?
Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things, that "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don't's and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's.
Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: How old?
Prabhupada: I am eighty years old.
Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Krsna movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty year old?
Prabhupada: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And.... So I am moving still all over the world.
Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live?
Prabhupada: No, if.... You see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Krsna conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required.
Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Krsna movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial...?
Prabhupada: It doesn't.... The Krsna consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition.
Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.; there is begging in the street each day.
Prabhupada: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars?
Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life.
Prabhupada: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know?
Carol Jarvis: Well, the material...
Prabhupada: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual, but you have no eyes to see to it.
Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life.
Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...out of the sales of your books.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them?
Prabhupada: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free."
Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them.
Prabhupada: So when they pay for it.... When they pay for it, they will try to see "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the.... But after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money.
Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets?
Prabhupada: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit.
Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"
Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)
Prabhupada: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.
Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know.
Prabhupada: So why don't you manufacture pilot?
Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs.
Prabhupada: No, at the.... You talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post-dated check that "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or..." Shall I accept it?
Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions.
Prabhupada: All right.
Carol Jarvis: So for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview.
Prabhupada: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question.
Carol Jarvis: As I just said, they probably will some day.
Prabhupada: That "probably" again. That is not possible.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Prabhupada: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal.
Guru-krpa: Perhaps they can keep you young.
Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him...
Prabhupada: Who is.... Who is...
Carol Jarvis: ...giving him command, a free mind.
Prabhupada: So suppose if you say, "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible?
Carol Jarvis: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter)
Carol Jarvis: How do you know?
Prabhupada: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become...
Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared to not know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see...
Prabhupada: Then you can know from the experience that every.... Your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man, old woman.
Carol Jarvis: Yes.
Prabhupada: How do you know?
Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say, "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease."
Prabhupada: Now, if you say that "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy.
Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know...
Prabhupada: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't.... I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: Yes. So but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge.
Carol Jarvis: So your answer...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...is to work with nature.
Prabhupada: We can do that. We can do that, that...
daivi hy esa gunamayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]
You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Krsna says that if you become Krsna conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Krsna consciousness.
Carol Jarvis: Why.... Why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way?
Prabhupada: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination.
Carol Jarvis: Isn't it also your natural.... Isn't it natural to...
Prabhupada: It is struggle. Struggle means.... Struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is.... The whole world is going on, that.... They have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain.... But they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So, but they are not coming to the point of understanding that "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Krsna consciousness. Athato brahma jijnasa. If we remain dull -- "Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes" -- and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You can never stop it.
Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature at all?
Prabhupada: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young.
Carol Jarvis: No, no, no...
Prabhupada: Everyone...
Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them.
Prabhupada: That you are not working. That is.... That is your.... That is...
Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy.
Prabhupada: That's all.... You are not happy.
Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy.
Prabhupada: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is.... Then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain.
Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a mouth, and you do the same to them. You call them, and they jump.
Prabhupada: No.
Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master.
Prabhupada: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master.... Just like a physician. He is asking that "Come here. Lie down." He is knife.... He knows that he'll make surgical.... He agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says, "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing.
Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference...
Prabhupada: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning.
Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Give them some prasada. [break]...yogi(?). There are many animals. They are also doing.... (background conversation) And Garuda also, vegetarian.
Pusta Krsna: Garuda.
Prabhupada: Garuda. But he carries the Lord Visnu. That is not the point. How to become Krsna conscious, that is really.... To become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Krsna's prasadam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Krsnized. We take Krsna's prasadam. That is our.... We are servant of Krsna, so whatever is left over by Krsna, we take. If Krsna eats meat, we shall take Krsna prasadam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Krsna whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our.... Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26], so we offer Him. If Krsna says, "Mamsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take.
Guest: Thank you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye.
Pusta Krsna: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple...
Prabhupada: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Krsna, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Krsna, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?
Pusta Krsna: The activities inside.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Krsna, it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirvisesavadi and the sunyavadi, they: "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no..." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. The things which are usable by Krsna consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapancika, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rupa Gosvami's injunction. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah, mumuksubhih parityagah. Parityaga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, sunyavadi and nirvisesavadi. We are not such fools. Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Krsna convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gita, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Krsna explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Krsna's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Krsna induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's.... Actually that is good. Even if you enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Krsna, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Krsna. Then it is good; otherwise bad. Krsna says, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Krsna conscious, therefore they are all duskrtinah, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero-vadis or impersonal-vadis. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Krsna. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasadam.
Pusta Krsna: Just like we're getting some money for our books.
Prabhupada: The quality's changed.
Pusta Krsna: They take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now, no more money, no more anything.
Prabhupada: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Krsna. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Krsna within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Krsna. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all.... But we say that Krsna has manufactured. So they.... This philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Krsna. Everything.... Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Krsna, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Krsna, that is material, and when it is used for Krsna, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam. Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is.... Then why he's criminal. If you plea.... If you present this plea that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend...," but that is not the idea, that the money.... My money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Krsna. When it is utilized for Krsna, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Krsna, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending. I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me. You are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand?
Pusta Krsna: That last argument again? You're taking money?
Prabhupada: The money belongs to Krsna.
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: So if you spend it for Krsna, then it is spiritual.
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], bhoktaram yajna-tapasam [Bg. 5.29]. Repeatedly says. Krsna is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktaram yajna-tapasa... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhunjate te tv agham papam. You'll see this verse.
Pusta Krsna: Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9].
Devotee: It's gone, Srila Prabhupada(?).
Prabhupada: What can I do?
Guru-krpa:
istan bhogan hi vo deva
dasyante yajna-bhavitah
tair dattan apradayaibhyo
yo bhunkte stena eva sah
[Bg. 3.12]
"In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna, supply all necessities to man, but he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to other demigods in return is certainly a thief."
Devotee: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. (end)
Prabhupada: ...can you think about the living pulse which is beating, the heart, heart failure? Why don't you bring it into palpitation again? If you study that air.... You are.... Air you bring artificially. Push it. Why don't you do it if you are so great scientist? Is it very difficult? So in anything, air is fi.... Just like in the tire tube. Air is finished. Push it, air. It is all right. So do you think it is air, the palpitation? You are so foolish? And passing as a scientist. Air can be replaced. It is difficult? Just like tire tube air, a huge quantity to work. You immediately, within a second.... So why do you say, "Now, now the breathing is stopped." Breathing is stopped, air stopped. What is their answer? Hm?
Guru-krpa: They have no answer.
Pusta Krsna: The cells have died.
Prabhupada: Seller?
Pusta Krsna: Tiny cells in the body have died.
Prabhupada: Then don't say that "Breathing is stopped. Therefore he is dead." Don't talk nonsense. Why do you talk like that, "Now breathing is stopped. He's dead"? Talk in right language if you are scientist. Why you are talking like that, "The air is stopped. The breathing is stopped. Therefore dead"? That's not a fact. So you are stating which is not a fact. Why you claim that you are scientist? That is the challenge. Hm? Then again you come to the blood. What is blood? Red water. So if you say that this, that, so many jugglery of words, so manufacture. Water mix with the red color and give these, these so many rascal things.
Guru-krpa: They don't have artificial blood. I don't think they can make artificial blood.
Prabhupada: Nothing. Artificial blood.... Superficially it is red water. So if red water is the life, then why you are spoiling so much blood? Keep it scientifically and push it into the dead body. I say it is, that way, it is the red water, nothing but red water. Urine is white water. I am coming to the five elements, air, water.... Then what is this bone? Earth. You can manufacture bone, hard bone, with earth or wood or something plastic. So we are analyzing the combination of the body, so everything you can manufacture. But where is the life you can manufacture? Why do you say? That is our challenge. All the ingredients of the body you can manufacture exactly like that. Ultimately you can give the beauty also of the woman or the man. But where is life? Bring life by all these things. Then I will say that you are scientist. Otherwise cheater, simply bluffing people. This thing should be stopped. Where you get the information that this, from matter life is possible. "In future." But in future.... In inceptive condition you show something. Just like formerly they were flying balloons. So because they were flying, they could say that "Future we shall fly a big city." And in the history we can see that that is not impossible, because in the inceptive condition or initiative condition we see that big things can be flown. But here you cannot even prepare an ant. You have not been able to prepare even a small ant, germ. Show me. So why do you say, "In future I shall do it"?
Pusta Krsna: Some of these creature don't even have hearts.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Pusta Krsna: Some of the insects don't even have hearts.
Prabhupada: And how do you say? They have everything. You have no intelligence to understand. Everything, all anatomic physiology is there, even the small full stop. You cannot see even, microbe. That is God's creation.
Pusta Krsna: You mean to say...
Prabhupada: I have seen very minute, walking very..., exactly like a big...
Guru-krpa: In Vrndavana, when we were staying at Bon's place, there was big colony of ants. Ants, thousands of them.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have got all the sense, all the sympathy. For eating, sleeping, mating, they have got all intelligence.
Pusta Krsna: What I mean to say is, physiologically speaking, at least from biological viewpoint, some of these creatures don't even have hearts. They're much easier to manufacture, the parts of their bodies.
Prabhupada: You say there is no heart just like you say no soul. That is your vers.... I say that "When he is doing everything like a human being he has got everything." It is your insufficient knowledge that you say that.... Just like you say there is no soul. But that is your insufficient knowledge. That's not the fact. Krsna says, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61]. When Isvara is in everyone's heart, how you can.... Hrd-dese. How you say there is no heart? That is nonsense, another nonsense.
Pusta Krsna: So this is speaking of the material heart.
Prabhupada: Material, spiritual, you do not know anything. You don't talk. Better you become silent.
Pusta Krsna: (laughs) Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna said, sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese, specifically said, "within the heart." The.... Even a germlike, what is called, atom, less than atom, there is heart. Otherwise how Krsna says, hrd-dese?
Pusta Krsna: Sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese. Every living entity.
Prabhupada: Eh? And you say there is no.... You are our student. You are saying there is no heart. That means you do not carefully read.
Pusta Krsna: No, that's there, but is that the heart of the soul or the heart of the gross material body?
Prabhupada: Then.... Heart there is, as you have got heart. What you are? The same constitution.
Harisauri: In the Katha Upanisad it describes how they're sitting side by side.
Prabhupada: The same constitution of the body. Otherwise there is no question of heart.
Pusta Krsna: You've just challenged the whole field of biology also.
Prabhupada: Then what is the.... I say they're nonsense, rascals. They say that there is no.... And what is their knowledge? We don't give any value to their knowledge. Krsna says clearly, hrd-dese 'rjuna. And this body is just like a yantra, machine. So as machine means, moving machine means it must have wheel, it must have sitting place.... Everything is there, machine.
Pusta Krsna: That would mean that even the plants and trees also have a heart.
Prabhupada: Everything. That is proved scientifically. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved. There is a part(?). What is that? Spi...? Begins the word, the machine, the record?
Devotee (2): Spirograph.
Prabhupada: Yes, the word begins with s. Spirograph or like that. You do not know? They smear with black, what is called, carbon, and the fine...
Devotee 2: Cardiograph.
Prabhupada: Cardiograph, like that.
Pusta Krsna: Cardiograph.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Sensation.
Prabhupada: No, no, the machine is called some special name.
Harisauri: The same idea as cardiograph.
Pusta Krsna: Spectograph?
Prabhupada: Spectograph, yes.
Pusta Krsna: Has to do with light?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it records how it is moving, how it is going up and down. So that has been proved. The machine is hanged in the tree, and the tree is cut, and immediately makes a mark. Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has discovered the machine.
Pusta Krsna: Generally at least, though, we associate the heart with an organ that simply pumps blood and oxygen throughout the body, but the biologists contend that certain bodies and certain species of life have no such circulatory system, pumping blood or even oxygen.
Prabhupada: Why not?
Pusta Krsna: Well, that's the contention at present.
Prabhupada: Hm. But we can take that...
Guru-krpa: Like a worm. If you cut a worm in half, both parts of the worm will go on living.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Guru-krpa: You take one worm, you cut it, and both parts will go on living. You cut it in three places, and it will all live.
Prabhupada: Yes. So what is the wrong there?
Guru-krpa: Then there's three hearts?
Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately manufactured as soon as the living enters. Their chemical composition is that, that even you cut a living entity, he can enter. The living entity enters through the semina of the father in the womb of the mother, the same process. Unless the living entity enters, the body does not form. It is matter only. When the living entity enters, then the formation takes place according to his mind. What do they know about it? Hm? Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. The matter simply is set up according to the desire. Just like we have constructed this big house according to my desire. The matter has not taken shape like this big house automatically. I am the proprietor. I desire: "Let the rooms be like this." Similarly, the material elements, the semina of the father and the ova of the mother, mix. It creates a suitable, what is called, cement, and now, according to the desire of the living being, he'll settle. Not that the cement automatically becomes a room or pipe or this or that. Cement is cement, the same thing, earth, water, air, fire. By mixture it becomes so convenient that it takes a shape and becomes a different body, a different body for the man, a different body for the animal.... (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you.
Mike Barron: A little crooked. Jaya. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Thank you.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, this is Mr. Mike Barron. He is from one of the television stations here, and he wants to do an interview on you for the news tonight, which is seen by many, many thousands of people here at home.
Prabhupada: You have seen this news?
Mike Barron: Yes, I've seen this morning's. Fairly similar, just to talk about the movement. Are you happy with the way it's going here?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mike Barron: Just along those lines.
Guru-krpa: What do you think of that article?
Mike Barron: A bit facetious. A bit facetious. I didn't like it very much.
Prabhupada: You liked?
Mike Barron: No.
Prabhupada: Why?
Mike Barron: Er, a bit facetious. They had a funny way of doing it.
Prabhupada: Funny way, but it is very serious. It requires little intelligence...
Devotee (3): Like to sit there?
Prabhupada: ...that this body is a lump of matter, and the consciousness, or the living pulse, that is different. Can you prove that they are not? Eh?
Mike Barron: No.
Prabhupada: Then how do you say it is joking?
Mike Barron: Er, no, I.... The actual context.
Prabhupada: The context is that if you cannot separate the living force, or the soul, from the body, then you are on the same position as the dog is thinking, "I am the body. I am a big dog. I can bark very loudly." And he's showing his capacity. And if we are talking big, big assembly, and in the same conception of life, that "I am this body," then where is difference?
Mike Barron: I cannot argue against that.
Prabhupada: That is the point. That is the point. We have to understand this point. If we want to become more than the dog, you must find out in which sense we are more than the dog. That sense is understanding.... That is.... In Sanskrit word it is said, aham brahmasmi: "I am Brahman. I am not this matter." That is knowledge. Actually knowledge begins from that point, that "I am not this body." Just like a big 747 plane is running on, but there is the intelligent pilot. If somebody says, "There is no pilot. It is flying automatically. The machine is supported," is it a correct?
Mike Barron: No. Does Krsna consciousness make you aware of this, though?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Krsna consciousness, when one understands that this big machine is useless without the pilot. That is Krsna consciousness.
Mike Barron: How long.... It's hard to say. How long does it take for...
Prabhupada: It takes immediately, provided a man is intelligent. Just like the same principle: If a man is intelligent, he can immediately understand that the machine is not important; the pilot is important.
Mike Barron: The same with the body...
Prabhupada: Yes. If you take this body as everything, then analyze part by part. Just I was talking about breathing. People generally say, "The breathing is stopped; therefore the man is dead." And that can be replaced, breathing. Breathing? What is this breathing? It is simply air. Just like in tire tube, when the air is lost, you can immediately replace it and take it into work. Similarly, if breathing is lost, therefore the man is.... You can replace it. You are big, big scientist. You replace it. Just find out some machine which will "Hans! Phans!" just like bellows. That's not possible.
Mike Barron: Can you become aware of this without Krsna consciousness? Can you without...
Prabhupada: No, that awareness means Krsna consciousness. We can describe it in different language, but the real thing is that we must be aware of this thing.
Mike Barron: So your teachings go much further than just being part of the Krsna movement. Everyone, whether they like it or not, are indirectly concerned with it.
Prabhupada: The.... Our movement is an educative movement to understand the real position of living condition, and then we act. Just like if you know your real position, then, if you act intelligently, then it is nice. If you do not know what is your position, what is the use of your education and acting? You do not know your real position. That is ignorance. And that is dog mentality. The dog cannot understand that he is not body; he is something else. But human intelligence is advanced. If they do not try to understand this fact, then what is the difference between him and dog?
Mike Barron: None.
Prabhupada: That is being misused. There is no institution, no university, no education system, to understand what is that living force, without which it is a lump of matter. Where is that education?
Mike Barron: What do you call that force?
Prabhupada: That is the soul, or consciousness. The same thing, the pilot. The pilot may be a small man, and the airship may be very gigantic. You can make still more. But the pilot is the same. So the body may be elephant or a small ant, but the pilot is the same. That is real understanding.
Mike Barron: Just getting off that, can I ask why you've come to Australia again?
Prabhupada: I have already explained that, that this is my mission, to educate people to understand himself. They are under this misconception that "Every one of us, we are this body." That is misconception. You must know who is within the body. That is real education.
Mike Barron: And how long.... You'll continue this until...
Prabhupada: Well...
Mike Barron: ...until you die.
Prabhupada: The knowledge is already there in the Vedic literature, but there was no discussion, at least in the Western countries. So I am trying to.... We have got so many books, eighty-four books, writing on this science. (aside:) Show him our books. They are being accepted by high learned circle. [break] ...written not jokingly. It is a great science.
Mike Barron: Where do you.... You might think this unusual. Where does it come from, though?
Prabhupada: The Vedas, Vedic literature.
Mike Barron: What goes into this?
Prabhupada: Vedas. Vedic literature, Sama, Yajur, Rk, Atharva, Upanisad, then Bhagavata, Bhagavad-gita, so many. There is no cultivation of this knowledge.
Devotee (3): If we could.... If we put the stool up here, and then you can sit on facing that way, Mike?
Mike Barron: Hmm.
Pusta Krsna: I'll do it.
Prabhupada: How people are advanced? They should take very seriously.
Devotee (3): So he can sit and face that way.
Guru-krpa: Maybe you can take one picture of our books when you go.
Mike Barron: Yes, well, due to problems that do occur from time to time, we.... You know, what people consider to be the false guru, is that all right with you?
Prabhupada: Yes, any.... Guru means the teacher. So if the teacher does not give you real knowledge, then he is not teacher. He is cheater.
Mike Barron: And there are some around.
Prabhupada: Almost everyone, because they do not know what is the subject matter of teaching. The subject matter of teaching is beginning with this understanding, that life is different from matter. That is the beginning, ABCD. So if your basic knowledge is wrong, then what is the use of going further? It is all false knowledge.
Mike Barron: So there are a lot of these people who do that, false knowledge?
Prabhupada: That is.... That you have to consider, that it is a fact. And the yoga system is meant.... This is the real yoga system, that because we are on the false understanding, identifying with the body, so the bodily function should be controlled, and concentration or focus should be placed: "What is that living condition?" That is yoga or meditation, to find out what is the real.... Analyze this body and find out where is the living pulse. And that is real yoga system, to control the senses. The senses are working. Now we are getting knowledge through the senses. How to get this knowledge of the living force? That, a mechanical arrangement, that is called yoga system.
Cameraman(?): Somebody move up.
Mike Barron: Yes. Do you have a two-shot, or do you want to get that afterwards?
Cameraman: Yeah, I'll get to that. You're going to have to keep my front out as much as you can. Don't.... (talks about filming)
Mike Barron: Can you tell us a little bit about Krsna consciousness, what it does mean?
Prabhupada: Just like the living force within the body, that is the most important thing, similarly, throughout this creation, cosmic manifestation, Krsna is the most important thing.
Mike Barron: Are you happy with the way the Krsna movement is progressing throughout the world and particularly throughout Australia?
Prabhupada: Well, we are progressing very slow because the subject matter is so difficult that even big, big scientists, big, big professors, they are puzzled. So you cannot expect. But those who are fortunate and.... They are understanding. So this progress, we cannot expect a mass people will understand immediately, but if one person understands, he can act very tremendously to educate the people on this matter. Just like the example is that to illuminate the sky it does not require millions of stars. One moon is sufficient.
Mike Barron: What is the biggest obstacle for people to overcome?
Prabhupada: Their dullness. They are not being educated, but they are putting into the darkness of ignorance more and more. That is going on in the name of education.
Mike Barron: But some people are confused by the number of false gurus.
Prabhupada: So why you bring guru? You try to understand yourself. If you are fool, then what guru will do?
Mike Barron: But there are people...
Prabhupada: You should be intelligent. You should know that what is the subject matter of knowledge. Why do you accept so many fools and rascals as guru? First of all you know what is the subject matter of knowledge. Just like if you want to become a carpenter, you should go to an expert carpenter. If you want to be a medical man, here, if you want to become medical man, you must approach the medical college. So first of all, what do you want? You do not know what you want. Therefore you get so many cheaters. You do not know what you want.
Mike Barron: You do agree that there are many people who do try and cheat?
Prabhupada: No, first of all you agree that there is someone who cheats. First of all you agree that you do not know what is the aim of your life. Do you agree or not?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mike Barron: I think I know.
Prabhupada: You know? What is the aim? Tell me. What is the aim of human life? Tell me. We shall accept you as guru. Tell me. What is the aim of life?
Mike Barron: To be happy in myself.
Prabhupada: That, how dog is happy? Therefore I have said "dog mentality." You do not know what is happiness. You know simply by barking you'll be happy. That's all.
Mike Barron: Well, how do I find out?
Prabhupada: No, what is happiness? Do you know what is happiness?
Mike Barron: Perhaps not. How do I find out that?
Prabhupada: Find out.... But then why you are asking about guru? You do not know what is happiness.
Mike Barron: Can you tell me?
Prabhupada: Yes. Your happiness is that you do not like to die: you die. That is your distress. You do not like to become old man: you become old. So that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. This is unhappiness. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Mike Barron: And Krsna consciousness can help me attain this?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Krsna consciousness. He knows, "This dog's mentality of eating, sleeping, sex and defense is not my happiness. My real distress is that I do not want to die; I am being forced to die. So how to escape from this position?" That is happiness.
Mike Barron: Thank you.
Guru-krpa: Jaya Prabhupada.
Mike Barron: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]
Devotee (3): ...which is a topic on which they interview many personalities like yourself. And this is showing at seven o'clock tonight on television. There'll be many, many people watching it.
Prabhupada: Take that book. Take his book. No, I.... (tape of Prabhupada plays in background, laughter)
Mike Barron: I'll think about that.
Prabhupada: That is the lack of Krsna consciousness. (background talking, commotion) [break] Sixty, seventy, and another, small books. Sixty books like this.
Harisauri: She's asking how many do we sell.
Prabhupada: Sell? That I have given, estimate.
Pusta Krsna: With our standing orders we sell them all.
Carol Jarvis (Woman Interviewer): Oh, no, I mean, how many do you sell a day? For instance, how many of each book would you sell a day? Would it be thousands a day?
Guru-krpa: Yeah, maybe.
Pusta Krsna: Yeah, sometimes tens of thousands.
Prabhupada: Twenty thousand dollar daily.
Guru-krpa: Minimum.
Prabhupada: Minimum. Sometimes we go to fifty thousand dollars.
Carol Jarvis: A day?
Prabhupada: Day. All over the world.
Pusta Krsna: Devotees are working very hard to spread this consciousness, knowledge. (background talking)
Prabhupada: Religious book, selling daily so much, huge amount, that is unique in the history.
Carol Jarvis: Are they sold mainly in the Western countries?
Prabhupada: All over the world. Especially in Europe, America.
Harisauri: We even had some book orders just recently from Russia.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are also inquiring.
Guru-krpa: Every university in America takes complete book. Every book Srila Prabhupada writes, there is standing order. Oxford, Princeton, Harvard, UCLA, University of California...
Pusta Krsna: All of the leading professors also have written very favorable reviews, citing these...
Prabhupada: Where is that book, Professor Judah's book? Hare Krishna and Counterculture.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: You have read that?
Carol Jarvis: No, I haven't.
Prabhupada: Oh, he has written big book, Professor Judah. He has very much appreciated. And he has given statistics and everything, very scholarly book. Hare Krishna and Counterculture.
Carol Jarvis: Ah, yes. Yes, I have read it. (background conversation-about filming? Machine makes whirring sound)
Prabhupada: It is breathing? (more background conversation, machines whirring, etc.)
Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, what prompted you to start the Krsna movement?
Prabhupada: Well, the scientists make research. One does wrong thing to do that. So our process is to carry out the order of the higher authorities. So my Guru Maharaja, my spiritual master, asked me to do this. Therefore...
Carol Jarvis: But you led a rather normal life -- before this you were married. You were a businessman.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: What made you change suddenly?
Prabhupada: By this association. Just like we are holding meeting, and so many boys, girls, they come. If somebody is capturing the idea, he makes further progress.
Carol Jarvis: What was it that was different about your way of thinking?
Prabhupada: It is not my way of thinking; it is nobody's way of thinking; it is the natural way of life. Just like you eat. It is not a way of thinking. It is natural demand of the body.
Carol Jarvis: Well, why is it, can I ask, perhaps, that the Krsna movement is the natural way of living against, say, other religions, other faiths?
Prabhupada: It is not the question of religion or faith. It is the necessity. This already I have said, that you are hungry, and you require some food. It is not a way of thinking, that "I am hungry. I require..." It is the urge. You are hungry, and you require to eat. Similarly, people are making so many arrangements to become happy. So this is also another way, but this is the right way.
Carol Jarvis: You have now thousands and thousands of devotees all around the world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: A lot of them are very young people coming into the movement. Do you think they really understand what they're going into when they join the Krsna movement?
Prabhupada: So if, if.... At least they understand something about it. Otherwise how they are sticking to this movement? They are intelligent boys. They are coming from respectable family, educated. Why they should go after me unless they have got something? That you can ask them. There are so many. All of them are young men.
Carol Jarvis: They're forced to lead a very spartan way of life, though, aren't they? Why is this necessary?
Prabhupada: If you want real happiness.... That I have already explained. Real happiness -- to become free from the natural material laws, birth, death, old age and disease. This is real happiness. Suppose you are arranging for your happiness, and all of a sudden death comes. Then where is happiness? So how you can check? So the real impediment of our happiness is stated: birth, death, old age and disease. So if you want real happiness, then you have to first of all make arrangement that you'll not die or you'll not take birth, you'll not become old, you'll not be diseased. Just like insurance. They make insurance of life. So where is your insurance for these things? You do not want to die, but you are forced to die. Where is insurance? This is insurance, Krsna consciousness.
Carol Jarvis: Insurance for what?
Prabhupada: No more.... No more death, no more birth, no more old age, no more disease. This is insurance. And therefore it is the primary necessity for becoming happy. Otherwise you have made arrangement very nicely, and if all of a sudden you die, then where is your happiness?
Carol Jarvis: Do you think the type of life that your devotees must lead...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...is in fact a happy one, getting up very early in the morning...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is. It is. Just like if you are suffering from some ailments, so you have to follow some rules and regulation so that you may be cured. Do the doctor not prescribe so many things, that "You don't eat like this. You don't do this. You do this"? There are so many don't's and do's. So if you really want to become happy, you have to follow some don't's and do's.
Carol Jarvis: Your Divine Grace, can I ask you how old you are now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: How old?
Prabhupada: I am eighty years old.
Carol Jarvis: And do you think the Krsna movement has helped you? Are you a fit man for an eighty year old?
Prabhupada: At least all my contemporaries have gone away. (laughter) All my young friends and childhood friends, there are no more existing, my relatives. And.... So I am moving still all over the world.
Carol Jarvis: Can you see an age that you could live until? Could you predict how long you might live?
Prabhupada: No, if.... You see, this body is so made that it must end, but before ending, you must be competently Krsna conscious. Then, next life, you become permanent in life, in knowledge, in blissfulness. That is required.
Carol Jarvis: Many people find it very difficult to reconcile the spiritual way of life in the Krsna movement with the great financial resources the movement also has. Why do you need any great financial...?
Prabhupada: It doesn't.... The Krsna consciousness movement does not depend on any material condition, any material condition.
Carol Jarvis: But you make a lot of money out of the sales of your books, etc.; there is begging in the street each day.
Prabhupada: Yes. But there are many beggars. They do not get money. We get money. We are not beggars. We are giving books, knowledge. Do you think we are beggars?
Carol Jarvis: If I could use the example, perhaps, of your temple, which has a lot of very rich material things in it. I wonder what significance that plays in your spiritual life.
Prabhupada: So what do you mean by spiritual and material? Do you know the distinction? Then I'll show you spiritual. And do you know?
Carol Jarvis: Well, the material...
Prabhupada: I say that in the temple there is nothing material, all spiritual, but you have no eyes to see to it.
Carol Jarvis: I wonder if you could lead an equal sort of life without the richness of the temple.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can do. You can live at your home like us. We are giving the example. You can live also like that. That is spiritual life. If you follow the same rules and regulation and live like that, that is spiritual life.
Carol Jarvis: You told me earlier that you make thousands of dollars a day...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...out of the sales of your books.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: If you want your thoughts to be passed on to other people, why do you sell the books and make money out of them?
Prabhupada: Otherwise you'll not read it. If I give you free, then you'll think, "Ah, this is something nonsense. They are giving free."
Carol Jarvis: Not necessarily give them free, but perhaps sell them for a price that pays for the cost of producing them.
Prabhupada: So when they pay for it.... When they pay for it, they will try to see "What these books are saying? Let me see." And if you get free, then you may keep it in your rack for hundreds of years. So that is not the.... But after all, we have to print these books, so who will pay for that? We have no money.
Carol Jarvis: Well, what happens to the rest of the money, though, that is collected in the streets?
Prabhupada: We are increasing our movement. We are opening centers. We are printing more books. This is my books. I have made a Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. That is my will, and I have given my will that fifty percent of the collection should be spent for reprinting the books and fifty percent should be spent for spreading the movement. So there is no question of material profit.
Carol Jarvis: I wonder if I could ask you just finally, then, if you have a message.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the message, that people are under the impression that one is this body, but that is not the fact. The soul, or the man, he is within the body. Just like you are not your, this shirt and coat. You are within the shirt and coat. Similarly, the living entity, the living being, is within this body, the gross body and the subtle body. The subtle body is composed of mind, intelligence and ego, and the gross body is a composition of these material things, earth, water, air, fire, like that, five elements. Altogether, eight elements. This is inferior energy. And the superior energy is within these eight elements, five gross and three subtle. So we have to study about that thing. Just like I asked that boy that "You can manufacture a huge machine, flying in the sky, 747, but why don't you manufacture the pilot?"
Carol Jarvis: Thank you. (background conversation about filming, recording)
Prabhupada: So that is intelligence, that if in spite of your manufacturing such a huge machine, without the help of a pilot you cannot fly it.
Carol Jarvis: Yes, I know.
Prabhupada: So why don't you manufacture pilot?
Carol Jarvis: Probably someday they may.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Carol Jarvis: At the moment we're just taking some photographs.
Prabhupada: No, at the.... You talk at the moment, sir. You don't give me post-dated check that "In future I shall be millionaire. Now you take a check of million or..." Shall I accept it?
Carol Jarvis: No, at the moment we're just taking some photographs. We can't let you talk at the moment. You're supposedly listening to my questions.
Prabhupada: All right.
Carol Jarvis: So for the moment I'll pretend to be asking you some questions for the purposes of cutting the interview.
Prabhupada: No, you note down that we are asking that you are so expert in manufacturing big, big machine. Why not manufacture a pilot? That is my question.
Carol Jarvis: As I just said, they probably will some day.
Prabhupada: That "probably" again. That is not possible.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, I don't know. I don't know.
Prabhupada: You do not know. That is I say. Therefore I say you cannot do it. You do not know it. You cannot manufacture even a small germ, what to speak of pilot. That is the problem. The modern education is they do not know it. "Perhaps," "maybe," this is not scientific proposal.
Guru-krpa: Perhaps they can keep you young.
Carol Jarvis: That's just what I was going to say. Perhaps they can build something without giving him...
Prabhupada: Who is.... Who is...
Carol Jarvis: ...giving him command, a free mind.
Prabhupada: So suppose if you say, "Perhaps I'll be able to keep my young age continually," is it possible?
Carol Jarvis: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Then? You don't know. Then learn it. It is not possible. You must become an old lady. (laughter)
Carol Jarvis: How do you know?
Prabhupada: Yes, I know. You know also. You are denying only. You know that you shall become...
Carol Jarvis: No, but I don't know anything. I'm prepared to not know anything. I'm prepared to wait and see...
Prabhupada: Then you can know from the experience that every.... Your grandmother was young lady some years ago. Now she's old man, old woman.
Carol Jarvis: Yes.
Prabhupada: How do you know?
Carol Jarvis: But, you know, you could use that argument and say, "Yes, but I also know that they weren't able to cure a single disease."
Prabhupada: Now, if you say that "My grandmother has become old lady. I'll not become," that is lunacy.
Carol Jarvis: No, no, no. I'm not suggesting that I'm not going to become old. I'm simply saying that I don't know...
Prabhupada: So therefore, therefore you cannot stop the nature's process. You are dependent. You should first of all understand that you are dependent on nature's process. That is intelligence. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani... [Bg. 3.27]. If you extravagantly say that "I shall stop this nature's process," that is lunacy, craziness. It is not possible. You have to accept that you are under the stringent laws of nature.
Carol Jarvis: Oh, I couldn't.... I agree with everything that you're saying about the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: Yes. So but therefore how you can make a plan of happiness? Nature is baffling your plan. That you have to understand, "Why nature is baffling me?" That is real knowledge.
Carol Jarvis: So your answer...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol Jarvis: ...is to work with nature.
Prabhupada: We can do that. We can do that, that...
daivi hy esa gunamayi
mama maya duratyaya
mam eva ye prapadyante
mayam etam taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]
You cannot combat with the nature's law, but Krsna says that if you become Krsna conscious, you can do that. You can stop nature's law acting upon you. And that is Krsna consciousness.
Carol Jarvis: Why.... Why would you want to stop nature's law acting in its natural way?
Prabhupada: Because I don't want to be old man, but I am being forced. Therefore I want to stop this force of the nature. That is my natural inclination.
Carol Jarvis: Isn't it also your natural.... Isn't it natural to...
Prabhupada: It is struggle. Struggle means.... Struggle for existence means there is something against my will, and I want to stop it. This is called struggle for existence. And that is.... The whole world is going on, that.... They have started that United Nation. Why United Nation? You remain.... But they are trying to stop war. "Let us struggle unitedly." So that is going on. You don't want war, but the war is inevitable. Even the United Nation is there, still war is going on. That is struggle. So, but they are not coming to the point of understanding that "We are trying so much, so hard, to become happy, but nature is not allowing me." This is real intelligence. And that is Krsna consciousness. Athato brahma jijnasa. If we remain dull -- "Let the nature's law act upon me as it likes" -- and we go on struggling to stop it, it will never stop, because nature's law is so powerful. You can never stop it.
Carol Jarvis: But why do you want to fight nature at all?
Prabhupada: Then you want happiness. Again I am repeatedly saying that you don't want to stop your old age. You want to remain young.
Carol Jarvis: No, no, no...
Prabhupada: Everyone...
Carol Jarvis: I'm saying I think I can be happy by working within nature's laws rather than trying to fight them.
Prabhupada: That you are not working. That is.... That is your.... That is...
Carol Jarvis: But I'm not unhappy.
Prabhupada: That's all.... You are not happy.
Carol Jarvis: No, I'm not unhappy. I'm perfectly happy.
Prabhupada: No, that is your ignorance. Nobody is happy. That is.... Then it is the happiness of the dog. He is also thinking happy. The hog is also thinking happy. That is another illusion. The dog may be a very big dog, and he can bark very nicely, but he is not happy because he has got a master. As soon as the master, "Come here," "Yes." Chain.
Carol Jarvis: But all of these people have a mouth, and you do the same to them. You call them, and they jump.
Prabhupada: No.
Carol Jarvis: That's the same as a dog coming to its master.
Prabhupada: Yes. But to have a real master and to have a false master.... Just like a physician. He is asking that "Come here. Lie down." He is knife.... He knows that he'll make surgical.... He agrees. But if somebody, rogue, says that "I shall cut your throat," he'll not agree. That is intelligence. A physician is also with the knife, and the rogue is also with the knife. When the physician says, "You lie down. I shall have some surgical operation," he agrees to ply on his body the knife. But he'll never agree if he knows that "He is a rogue. He'll simply cut my throat." That is the difference. But superficially you see, "Both of them are with knife," but one for real happiness, one for false thing.
Carol Jarvis: I find it hard to see the difference...
Prabhupada: Yes, you find out how to go to a physician, agree to his proposal. Then you'll be cured. Otherwise you'll have to suffer with that boil, always burning, burning, burning, burning.
Carol Jarvis: Thank you for your time.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Give them some prasada. [break]...yogi(?). There are many animals. They are also doing.... (background conversation) And Garuda also, vegetarian.
Pusta Krsna: Garuda.
Prabhupada: Garuda. But he carries the Lord Visnu. That is not the point. How to become Krsna conscious, that is really.... To become vegetarian, nonvegetarian, that is not very important. But we are interested in Krsna's prasadam. We are not in the group of vegetarians or nonvegetarians. We are Krsnized. We take Krsna's prasadam. That is our.... We are servant of Krsna, so whatever is left over by Krsna, we take. If Krsna eats meat, we shall take Krsna prasadam. What can we do? Therefore we offer Krsna whatever He wants to eat, and we take the remnants. That is our.... Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26], so we offer Him. If Krsna says, "Mamsa, eggs, give Me," then we shall offer Him and take.
Guest: Thank you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Carol Jarvis: Thank you very much. Bye bye.
Pusta Krsna: They all take that this is some kind of a materialistic business, selling books and collecting money, and we purchase a beautiful temple...
Prabhupada: Therefore I said that we are not material; it is all spiritual. That they do not know. Where is material? If everything is prepared and everything, there is Krsna, then where is material? When it is misused, other than Krsna, then it is material. Now, just like the university department and the criminal department. Where is the difference superficially? That's a building; that's a building. There are officer; there are officer. There are rooms; there are rooms. Why it is called criminal, prison house?
Pusta Krsna: The activities inside.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is the activity which concerns. In the university there is only activity of education, learning. And here, all the criminals are violating the laws, they are put together. But superficially they look the same room, same food, same office, same typewriter. So it is the question of understanding why it is called criminal department and why it is called university. So as soon as it is university department, that is good. The same building, the same dictaphone, the same typewriter, same table, same chair, when they are used for Krsna, it is spiritual. The same money, everything, it looks like that. Therefore they cannot understand. The nirvisesavadi and the sunyavadi, they: "Spiritual means these things should be zero." They say it should be zero. "No table, no chair, no house, no, no, no, no..." But that is (laughs) ignorance. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. The things which are usable by Krsna consciousness movement, if we give up them, prapancika, as material, that is foolishness. That they do not know. They have yet to learn. It is Rupa Gosvami's injunction. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah, mumuksubhih parityagah. Parityaga means giving up: "Oh, it is material." So we are not such fools, sunyavadi and nirvisesavadi. We are not such fools. Arjuna, he thought that not killing is better than killing, but Krsna convinced him, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Therefore he, after reading Bhagavad-gita, he took it, "Yes, killing is better than not killing." Generally people understand not killing is better than killing. But Krsna explained to Arjuna, "No, if there is My desire, then killing is better than not killing." And that is knowledge. Therefore we have to carry out simply Krsna's order or His representative's order. Then it is all good. Either killing or not killing, it doesn't matter because it is coming directly from the Supreme. And that is spiritual. Otherwise why Krsna induced Arjuna to kill? He was presenting as very good man, that "I shall not kill." And that's.... Actually that is good. Even if you enemy excuse him, that is very good idea. But if it is not desired by Krsna, then it is bad. So our principle is: We have to act according to the desire of Krsna. Then it is good; otherwise bad. Krsna says, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So in spite of advancement of knowledge, because they are not Krsna conscious, therefore they are all duskrtinah, all sinful men. That is the test. So it is very difficult to understand this philosophy, but this is the fact. We are not going to be followers of zero-vadis or impersonal-vadis. We remain completely in the varieties, but these varieties are usable only for the satisfaction of Krsna. That is spiritual. You cannot stop the varieties. You have to change the quality of the varieties. Just like we are eating. It is not possible to stop eating. Why shall I stop eating? But the quality is changed. It is prasadam.
Pusta Krsna: Just like we're getting some money for our books.
Prabhupada: The quality's changed.
Pusta Krsna: They take that spiritual life is negation of anything that they're doing now, no more money, no more anything.
Prabhupada: For our personal comfort, we, our students are lying on the floor. They are not using the money for purchasing nice furniture. No personal comfort. But if you say that "You are purchasing big, big car," yes, for going quickly to serve Krsna. Our service is main point. If I can go and serve Krsna within a minute, why shall I wait for one hour? So we take all advantages. After all, it belongs to Krsna. They say that "We have manufactured." That's all.... But we say that Krsna has manufactured. So they.... This philosophy, it is little difficult to understand by the dull men, that nothing is without Krsna. Everything.... Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. Sarvam, when we say sarvam, how we can exclude this and that? Everything is in relationship with Krsna, sarvam. Sarvam means everything. So how can you discriminate, "This is material; this is spiritual"? The discrimination is that when it is not used for Krsna, that is material, and when it is used for Krsna, that is spiritual. That is the explanation of sarvam. Just like a thief has stolen my money. The money will be utilized. He'll spend it. I am spending, and he is.... Then why he's criminal. If you plea.... If you present this plea that "Money's for spending, so either you spend or I spend...," but that is not the idea, that the money.... My money means the money should be spent for my purpose, and because you have taken the money and spending for your purpose, therefore you are criminal. That is the distinction between material and spiritual. Money, or everything, belongs to Krsna. When it is utilized for Krsna, this is spiritual, and when it is not utilized for Krsna, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? You cannot say that "Yes, I have taken your money, so you are also spending. I am also spending. So why do you call me a criminal?" The answer will be: "Yes, you are not spending for me. You are spending for you. Therefore you are criminal." Is it very difficult to understand?
Pusta Krsna: That last argument again? You're taking money?
Prabhupada: The money belongs to Krsna.
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: So if you spend it for Krsna, then it is spiritual.
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: And if you spend for your benefit, that is material. Where is the difficulty to understand? Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], bhoktaram yajna-tapasam [Bg. 5.29]. Repeatedly says. Krsna is the supreme proprietor. So when everything is used for the fulfillment of the will of the proprietor, that is proper use. Otherwise improper use. Just like we have given several times this example, "Keep to the right," "Keep to the left." So you are driving your car. The will is, government will is, "Keep to the right." As soon as you keep to the left, immediately you are criminal. You cannot put this argument, "What is the wrong? I am driving." "No, because you have violated my will, therefore you are..." The government will see. That is criminal. So everything.... Bhoktaram yajna-tapasa... He is the proprietor. He is the enjoyer. So because you have enjoyed without His permission, therefore you become criminal. You are punishable. Bhunjate te tv agham papam. You'll see this verse.
Pusta Krsna: Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9].
Devotee: It's gone, Srila Prabhupada(?).
Prabhupada: What can I do?
Guru-krpa:
istan bhogan hi vo deva
dasyante yajna-bhavitah
tair dattan apradayaibhyo
yo bhunkte stena eva sah
[Bg. 3.12]
"In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna, supply all necessities to man, but he who enjoys these gifts without offering them to other demigods in return is certainly a thief."
Devotee: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- April 20, 1976, Melbourne
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
