Tamala Krsna: ...come Sunday
easily. Charge them.... You know like in Los Angeles, we used to charge a dollar
a...Prabhupada: The loan will be clear very soon.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. They have a.... They are very expert at financing now, these, the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easy.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) He is the right person.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also they have not advertised that, but every day about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average about $2.50.
Prabhupada: That's cheap.
Tamala Krsna: All you can eat for two dollars...
Prabhupada: And for public it is very cheap.
Tamala Krsna: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people who come. It's such a central location.
Prabhupada: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say, "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vrndavana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's.... People are coming by thousands. I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarama is so powerful, He's bringing: "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was.... What is that? Plowing? Yamuna was threatened.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, Balarama.
Prabhupada: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened.
Tamala Krsna: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant, businessmen, like that.
Prabhupada: And there is book display?
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display.
Prabhupada: They are purchasing book also?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead, complimentary copy...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Tamala Krsna: ...with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now.
Prabhupada: Oh, you are adding two more.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudvisa Maharaja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten.... I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarisa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant with waiters, and...
Prabhupada: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow.
Guru-krpa: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura-govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it.
Prabhupada: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosa, kachori preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Krsna conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program?
Tamala Krsna: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhrstadyumna Maharaja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as.... Some of the persons belonging to it are the chairman of Coca-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice president, First National City Bank vice president, all of these men.
Prabhupada: So you can contract with all big, big men.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And he's the president of the council.
Prabhupada: His father?
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then he is very influential man.
Tamala Krsna: Very. So he immediately got...
Prabhupada: So you should be like father like son.
Tamala Krsna: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him.
Prabhupada: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bapaka beta sepaika ghoda, kucha nehi to thoda thoda (indistinct), mean "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some, must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepaika ghoda. It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the.... Your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader.
Dhrstadyumna: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dhrstadyumna: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Krsna conscious. Bas. Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Krsna conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America.
Tamala Krsna: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern.... See, his father.... The company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas.
Prabhupada: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line -- they are all intelligent men-they'll get ideas, what is this Krsna consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not.... They may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success.
Dhrstadyumna: And their sons will also read it.
Prabhupada: Their sons also will read.
Dhrstadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too.
Prabhupada: Yad yad acarati sresthah, lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Krsna consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You.... Both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success.
Tamala Krsna: His father has been giving us.... Of course, it was.... We have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhrstadyumna.... Like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that.... He is encouraging him also because he's taking some, what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this.... We read about twenty-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China. It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history...
Prabhupada: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they?
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, many.... Their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially and they.... We have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman.
Tamala Krsna: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got.... We wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China, we read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution.
Prabhupada: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards?
Dhrstadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. There should be no...
Prabhupada: In that case, they should, if they have got sense.... Just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now?
Dhrstadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the...
Prabhupada: Materialism means capitalism.
Dhrstadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine.
Prabhupada: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia.
Tamala Krsna: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure.
Prabhupada: And similarly, they will have to condemn. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not...
Dhrstadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse Tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not..., or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. They are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others.
Tamala Krsna: Artificial, though.
Prabhupada: So that is artificial way of.... Unless one is prepared to.... Just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay.
Tamala Krsna: We also agree it's a failure.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: It is bound to fail.
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything.... Just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is.... Even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally himself, he is hiding. Why this defect?
Dhrstadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system...
Prabhupada: No, no, system.... If the.... You cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process.
Tamala Krsna: They say that will be corrected by education.
Prabhupada: Education.... That means what is that education?
Tamala Krsna: They say that the.... They don't.... Of course, we say education means Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost.
Tamala Krsna: They say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined.
Prabhupada: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body.... You can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body, individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one.... Works. Immediately the plane becomes.... It is.... So you must know where to touch. If.... I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down. "Ohhh." So finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you.... Just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point.
Dhrstadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is.... And they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied.
Prabhupada: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point -- that is natural -- where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment.... There are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point, that "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way. Nature's way is "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature.
Dhrstadyumna: They say that you can become above nature.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That will make them failure.
Dhrstadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail.
Prabhupada: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure. "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one.
Tamala Krsna: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature.
Prabhupada: No, that is the foolishness. Mudha. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mudha.
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, another problem...
Prabhupada: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature?
Tamala Krsna: They say, "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought."
Prabhupada: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water.
Tamala Krsna: (laughs) It can't be done.
Prabhupada: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of.... The laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above.... This, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassed. That is following little properly. Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that? Ask them. We know that.
Dhrstadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the...
Prabhupada: Yes, it was.... The Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from.... Everyone was coming. So now argument that "If you are.... You are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."
Tamala Krsna: They can't do that.
Prabhupada: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument.
Dhrstadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all...
Prabhupada: This is not philosophy.
Dhrstadyumna: Yes. This is science.
Prabhupada: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted.
Tamala Krsna: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].
Tamala Krsna: They're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical.... They were very.... For instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius.... Up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God.
Prabhupada: That is good.
Tamala Krsna: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmana community. They called them scholars who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became...
Prabhupada: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same situation. You.... Your, what is that rascal's name?
Dhrstadyumna: Mao Tse Tung.
Tamala Krsna: Mao. Mao.
Prabhupada: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there.
Tamala Krsna: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but these classes must remain, the teacher class and the student class.
Tamala Krsna: Here's what they do. They take the teachers.... This is one of their program. Actually we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years.
Prabhupada: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there.
Dhrstadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher.
Prabhupada: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class.
Tamala Krsna: They say everyone should be teachers.
Prabhupada: That "should be" means not.
Tamala Krsna: No, they are making everyone teachers.
Prabhupada: And this "making" means not.
Dhrstadyumna: They are trying to make.
Prabhupada: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "Trying," "making," means two.
Hari-sauri: It's artificial.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Just like they let the students teach the teachers.
Prabhupada: That's right. So the teachers.... Sometimes you become teacher; sometimes I become teacher. What is this?
Tamala Krsna: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior-inferior.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: Classless society.
Prabhupada: They are taking themselves the superior position to make it one.
Tamala Krsna: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like some of the rascal swamis come here that "There is no teacher of.... No require teacher, no need of books."
Tamala Krsna: Then why do we need them?
Prabhupada: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book."
Tamala Krsna: That happened. One swami said, "Now you.... Meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said, "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said, "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?"
Prabhupada: So what was his reply?
Tamala Krsna: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply, so they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public.
Prabhupada: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, we did a report telling.... We wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Krsna consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: Okay, you want to read it, Dhrstadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future, because this report is based on a lot of research. Read. [break]
Prabhupada: ...that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals...
Tamala Krsna: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report.
Prabhupada: Then don't try. Don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: It's a.... The Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China.
Dhrstadyumna: Balloons.
Tamala Krsna: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there.
Prabhupada: That is also nonsense.
Tamala Krsna: No, it's nonsense, but the point is how difficult it is. We have...
Prabhupada: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Krsna conscious -- they are already -- that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not.... That is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals. Which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die?
Tamala Krsna: No, they'll still die.
Prabhupada: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them.
Tamala Krsna: One of your disciples, Praghosa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurari trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this.
Prabhupada: Now in India also they are trying. Yasomati.... Yasodanandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and...
Pusta Krsna: Karnataka.
Prabhupada: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much.
Pusta Krsna: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupada's books very favorably.
Prabhupada: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure."
Tamala Krsna: You can't approach those men.
Prabhupada: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: It's not only difficult, it's impossible.
Prabhupada: Then don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: Completely impossible.
Prabhupada: Give up this idea.
Tamala Krsna: It may be possible fifty years from now.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: We were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole.
Prabhupada: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it.
Tamala Krsna: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said, "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said, "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said, "You've come up against the Great Wall. You'll never cross it."
Prabhupada: No, they'll be.... Nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish.... They are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become, violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force -- that is futile. Is it possible, that "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Krsna says, "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Dhrstadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the...
Prabhupada: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisa, it has cost me one paisa. I shall make one paisa profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if (s)he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he, what was.... One pot was there. He kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination.... "I shall become so great that I shall kick Krsna's law," and whatever pot he had-broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya durat caitanya-candra-carane: "Oh, you are so nice. Therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bas. This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya. The books will sell, that "You rascal number one, you set aside whatever learned. Read this." He sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya: "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate: "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice sitting. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tavac ca sobhate murkhah. By their, these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountain with my head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dvisat. They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. [break] ...their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going.... I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person...?
Tamala Krsna: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here -- it was impossible -- we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's only one import...
Prabhupada: No, let him. One?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. (end)
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. They have a.... They are very expert at financing now, these, the men who are in charge now. They're claiming that within two or three months all of the debt will be completely cleared. They have a plan, very easy.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) He is the right person.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And the restaurant is very successful. Also they have not advertised that, but every day about fifty people come for the lunch, and at least another seventy, eighty people come in the evening for dinner. For a full meal each person pays an average about $2.50.
Prabhupada: That's cheap.
Tamala Krsna: All you can eat for two dollars...
Prabhupada: And for public it is very cheap.
Tamala Krsna: Very inexpensive. And if they advertise it, they won't be able to handle all the people who come. It's such a central location.
Prabhupada: It will be automatically advertised. When people will say, "Oh, there is a nice ISKCON restaurant, and it is so cheap and so nice," people will come. Just like in our Vrndavana temple, we don't advertise. Of course, that's.... People are coming by thousands. I thought that so long distance from the city, nobody will come. But Balarama is so powerful, He's bringing: "Come out here." (laughter) Otherwise, I was.... What is that? Plowing? Yamuna was threatened.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, Balarama.
Prabhupada: And the whole Kuru dynasty was threatened.
Tamala Krsna: Very good class of people are coming to the restaurant, businessmen, like that.
Prabhupada: And there is book display?
Tamala Krsna: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, there's a book display.
Prabhupada: They are purchasing book also?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. They give them a Back to Godhead, complimentary copy...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Tamala Krsna: ...with the meal. And then they also purchase books. The buses are going on nicely. All the buses are out. Two more buses are being made now.
Prabhupada: Oh, you are adding two more.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Well, we had almost finished two. They'll be added in June, so that will make eight, a total of eight. And they're having a normal program going on nicely. And Madhudvisa Maharaja also went to visit the other temples. He said in Boston they've gotten.... I think they've already gotten it, right? That restaurant? Ambarisa Prabhu has gotten the most wonderful restaurant there, just around the corner from the temple. So it will be very, very high class restaurant with waiters, and...
Prabhupada: Now, this New York restaurant being organized, other restaurant will follow.
Guru-krpa: This restaurant down here, I just was there. Gaura-govinda, he's the one who decorated it. First class. People really like it.
Prabhupada: From the very beginning I was asking to open restaurant and farm. Produce ghee in the farm and send to the restaurant, and make nice samosa, kachori preparation, and there will be no scarcity of money. And if you organize in this way, your whole country will be transferred into Krsna conscious country. Whole country. So, what about your China program?
Tamala Krsna: Well, we went to New York to meet with Dhrstadyumna Maharaja's father, and he was very helpful. We approached him in a frank way, and he immediately got the help of his office. He's the president of this Far East American Council.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And not only China, this is for all of Asia. It includes as.... Some of the persons belonging to it are the chairman of Coca-Cola, the Bankers Trust Company first vice president, all of the big banks, Bank of America senior vice president, First National City Bank vice president, all of these men.
Prabhupada: So you can contract with all big, big men.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And he's the president of the council.
Prabhupada: His father?
Tamala Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then he is very influential man.
Tamala Krsna: Very. So he immediately got...
Prabhupada: So you should be like father like son.
Tamala Krsna: He has the same name. It's just "Junior" at the end, so they know him.
Prabhupada: No, intelligence also. Father's intelligence he must inherit. There is an Indian proverb, bapaka beta sepaika ghoda, kucha nehi to thoda thoda (indistinct), mean "The father's son and the soldier's horse, they acquire the quality, if not all, some, must." If one is good soldier, his horse is also trained up. There is a history in India. The horse has played heroic. The Queen of Jhansi's horse and this, our, what is called, Shivaji's horse, they have played unique part in the history. Sepaika ghoda. It is animal, but because it is the horse of a famous hero, it has played. Similarly, the son of father must be as good as father. If not, to some extent. Yes. So you are the.... Your father is the leader of so many big, big businessmen. You also become leader.
Dhrstadyumna: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dhrstadyumna: For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. And you have got the intelligence. I have seen. I have studied you. Now you combine. Both of you, you are intelligent. You turn the whole America Krsna conscious. Bas. Then success all over the world. America is the leader of the nations. Now, if the America becomes Krsna conscious, then our movement is perfectly successful. And you have got the potency in America.
Tamala Krsna: These men are all in Asia, though. His father's biggest concern.... See, his father.... The company is divided into two: the American branch of Seagrams, and the overseas, which incorporates the whole world outside of America. His father is the president of overseas. So his father has all connections with all of the embassies overseas, all of the big corporations overseas.
Prabhupada: So all these big, big men, let them have one set of books and study. It is not any expenditure for them, but if at their leisure hour they read some of the line -- they are all intelligent men-they'll get ideas, what is this Krsna consciousness. So through the influence of father, just try to introduce our books to these big men. It is not.... They may keep them in library, and at leisure hour, if they simply glance over the line, oh, it will be great success.
Dhrstadyumna: And their sons will also read it.
Prabhupada: Their sons also will read.
Dhrstadyumna: Already my father has noticed in his travels that some of his friends, their sons have joined our movement now too.
Prabhupada: Yad yad acarati sresthah, lokas tad anuvartate [Bg. 3.21]. If these big men of the world, they take it, "Oh, yes. Krsna consciousness movement is genuine," then naturally it will be followed by the others. So here is a good opportunity to contact big men of the world. So utilize it properly. You.... Both of you are intelligent. Very cautiously deal with them. They will understand that "Oh, these people are very honest men of character and high knowledge and God conscious." That will make our movement success.
Tamala Krsna: His father has been giving us.... Of course, it was.... We have been approaching him through the aspect of doing business in China. His father is encouraging us in the sense that he is seeing Dhrstadyumna.... Like whenever we visit him, we come in our suits, and his father is seeing that.... He is encouraging him also because he's taking some, what he calls a very, what would you say, a responsible position, attempting to do some business. So he's been giving us letters on his company's letterhead. Just like this is a letter to the director of the Department of Commerce of the United States. We've seen a number of people. We've been visiting different directors. First thing we did when we went back is after meeting him, we got many books on China. Some of the examples are, just like this.... We read about twenty-five books. We've studied up very thoroughly and researched everything about China. Here is a book, The Religious Policy and Practice in Communist China. It describes everything about religion there. So we thoroughly read this book. Then there's other books, books on education, we read books on history...
Prabhupada: Chinese people, they are trying to raise their standard of civilization. Do they?
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, many.... Their philosophy is called dialectic materialism. They want to advance materially and they.... We have prepared one report of an interview with the president of a committee on United States and China relations. He's one of the leading experts in China. So after researching and studying all the educational, the libraries, all the different functions in China, we went and spoke with this gentleman.
Tamala Krsna: First we got a lot of information ourselves, so we'd be knowledgeable. We read for one month. We got.... We wrote away to all the councils, we got hundreds of books like this, special reports about China, we read them, and then we went to meet this man, because he is the most knowledgeable expert person on China in the United States. And we made up a report which we wanted to read to you, because it gives everything very nicely. It tells what China is doing now, and what our program can be for book distribution.
Prabhupada: No, what is their aim? After studying all these books, what do you think? What is the aim of China? What is the objective they are making progress towards?
Dhrstadyumna: Their aim is that everyone should be materially comfortable. There should be no...
Prabhupada: In that case, they should, if they have got sense.... Just like in the whole world, these American people are materially comfortable. But why they are producing hippies now?
Dhrstadyumna: They see this as a fault of the system, capitalism. They say that capitalism means the enjoyment of the few at the...
Prabhupada: Materialism means capitalism.
Dhrstadyumna: Well, they want communistic materialism. In other words, by creating, forming communes, everyone will get equal portion of food and bedding and clothing and medicine.
Prabhupada: No, that is not the fact. A man's tendency is that everyone wants to get more. So how they will check it? This is already proved in Russia.
Tamala Krsna: They condemn Russia. They say Russia is a failure.
Prabhupada: And similarly, they will have to condemn. If they follow the wrong path, they will have the wrong result. This is not...
Dhrstadyumna: Their leader, Mao Tse Tung, he was very austere, and he is very moral, and he has these purges where he takes the men who he sees are not..., or who are trying to use their position for their own power, and he takes it away from them. They are constantly going through these purges of their system to insure that no one enjoys more than others, at the expense of others.
Tamala Krsna: Artificial, though.
Prabhupada: So that is artificial way of.... Unless one is prepared to.... Just like why they are inducing persons to sacrifice their accumulated wealth for the state? Why? Communistic idea that everyone should be equal. So if somebody has more than others, they want to take it away. Just like in India this policy is now growing. So everyone should give away, but now it is being done by law, by force. But that will not stay.
Tamala Krsna: We also agree it's a failure.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: It is bound to fail.
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you voluntarily give, it will be failure. You will try to find out ways how you can take everything.... Just like income tax. The government is trying to take more money from the public, and public is hiding them in black market. This is going on. Nobody is.... Even your Nixon, he also hidden some money from the income tax. Why? He is the head of the government. So one side, he is head of the government, try to take money from the public, but he personally himself, he is hiding. Why this defect?
Dhrstadyumna: They will say that the system encourages man's greed, whereas their system...
Prabhupada: No, no, system.... If the.... You cannot change the mind. If you have got mind to enjoy more, by force if I try to force you not to enjoy more, give to the state, this is a struggle. This is not perfect process.
Tamala Krsna: They say that will be corrected by education.
Prabhupada: Education.... That means what is that education?
Tamala Krsna: They say that the.... They don't.... Of course, we say education means Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. Education means they must learn to sacrifice everything for the topmost.
Tamala Krsna: They say the topmost is the general mass of everyone, the proletariat, all people combined.
Prabhupada: That's all right, general. But you know how to make general mass of people happy. That example we give, that the whole body.... You can make the whole body happy simply by supplying food to the stomach. That is the best way. And if you want to make happy every part of the body, individual, that will never be successful. You must know where to touch. Just like the huge machine is going on by the expert manipulation of the pilot. He is pushing one.... Works. Immediately the plane becomes.... It is.... So you must know where to touch. If.... I am layman, I am put into that, then, instead of putting here, I shall put my here, and then it will go down. "Ohhh." So finished. So this is nature's way, that you supply food to the stomach, and the energy will be distributed every part. You supply water to the root of the tree, it will be supplied everywhere. That you must know. Otherwise, if you.... Just like if you do not know, a expert, not expert, so he's advised, "Give to, the food to the stomach." "And in where?" "No, in the hole of the body." If he does not, which hole, then he will put somewhere, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here, sometimes here. It will never act. Then you must know the science how to make everyone happy. If you do not know that, then your imperfect imagination will never be done, and that has become everywhere. Why there is difference of opinion even both of the communistic countries? Why there is difference of opinion between Russia and China? Because both of you do not know how to make everyone happy. That is the point.
Dhrstadyumna: China has achieved great material strides in the last twenty years. There is no prostitution. They have wiped out flies, no more flies causing disease. There is.... And they look to a very bitter past of exploitation at the hand of foreigners and internal civil war and great suffering and starvation. So when they look back over twenty years they see, "Oh, we have advanced greatly." So they are very satisfied.
Prabhupada: No, if they actually progressing, they will have to come to that point -- that is natural -- where, placing your service, you can serve everyone. That is the right conclusion. But we have got that right conclusion. If you take from us you can make immediately. But if you want to wait by your research work, then you can waste your time. But you have to come to this point. That is a fact. Just like you have to give food to the mouth. If you do not know, out of rascaldom you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment here, you experiment.... There are so many holes. You go on experimenting, and waste your time. But unless you come to this point, that "Food has to be supplied here," your all attempt will be failure. That you have to tell them. And because you cannot supersede nature's way. Nature's way is "The food must go through here." You cannot change it. You are not above nature.
Dhrstadyumna: They say that you can become above nature.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That will make them failure.
Dhrstadyumna: Oh, yes, they will fail.
Prabhupada: That will make them failure. Tell them, then this will make them failure. "If you are so foolish that you want to go above nature, then you are fool number one." Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. It is not possible. That is not possible. Then you are following wrong path. If you are imagining like that, that "We have surpassed the laws of nature," then you are fool number one.
Tamala Krsna: In that respect they are like the Americans and Russians. They think that we can overcome the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Tamala Krsna: They are just like the Americans and Russians in the same way. They are thinking we can overcome the stringent laws of nature.
Prabhupada: No, that is the foolishness. Mudha. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. So long they will have this impression that they can overcome the laws of nature they will continue to become mudha.
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, another problem...
Prabhupada: In which way you have surpassed nature? First of all, if you are thinking like that, in which way you have surpassed the nature?
Tamala Krsna: They say, "For example, before we began our agricultural development, there was very poor agricultural produce all over the country due to lack of proper water. Now we have laid huge irrigation systems, and there is no more drought."
Prabhupada: Therefore that is nature's way. Nature supplies you water. That is nature's way. That means you are making perfect according to the nature's way. But nature give you water; you produce profusely. But if you want to go above the nature, you produce without water.
Tamala Krsna: (laughs) It can't be done.
Prabhupada: Then we shall see that you have surpassed the laws of.... The laws of nature is there must be water. Nature is supplying. And you are trying to imitate. But if you say that "We can overpass the nature's law," then you produce without water. Then you'll be able. Then we shall see that you have gone above.... This, you are following the nature's. That is not surpassed. That is following little properly. Now you have arranged for water. That's very good. But if nature pours water, then you save so much labor. Do you know that, how nature will supply water profusely? You haven't got to make artificial arrangement for water. Do you know that? Ask them. We know that.
Dhrstadyumna: Formerly their society was very much like the Vedic culture. There was the emperor and the...
Prabhupada: Yes, it was.... The Chinese people were coming, taking knowledge from.... Everyone was coming. So now argument that "If you are.... You are following the nature's way. Nature supply water. That is a fact. Here is cloud. Nature will supply. Now, if you want to surpass nature, then you produce in the factory, without water, food grains. Then we shall understand that you can surpass. As you are producing instruments and so many other motorcars and this, that, so many, in the factory, that's all right. In the factory you produce food grains without water. Then you have surpassed nature."
Tamala Krsna: They can't do that.
Prabhupada: Then where is the question of surpassing nature? Make them fool in every point, these rascals, by argument.
Dhrstadyumna: Unfortunately, they do not teach any philosophy anymore. They have done away with all...
Prabhupada: This is not philosophy.
Dhrstadyumna: Yes. This is science.
Prabhupada: This philosophy, it is science. Without water you cannot produce. This is science. This is not imagination. So if you want to surpass nature, then you do practically. Why should you try to bring canal water or well water? Don't bring. You cannot surpass the laws of nature. That has to be accepted.
Tamala Krsna: Their main point is that they want to manipulate expertly the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: That means let them waste their time. Therefore it requires many births to understand this law. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].
Tamala Krsna: They're going away from this kind of understanding. They had a heritage of philosophical understanding, correct philosophical.... They were very.... For instance, their whole system during the time of Confucius.... Up until two or three hundred years ago their system was they had a monarchy, a king, an emperor, and the emperor was believed to be the representative of God.
Prabhupada: That is good.
Tamala Krsna: And it was Vedic. They had a brahmana community. They called them scholars who were advising. And they had administrators, and they had workers. Now the current Communists, they are against that system. They say this system was the worst system of all because it made some big and some small. Because naturally it became...
Prabhupada: But you are doing the same thing. Otherwise why you are reforming? Who is reforming unless the one class is very intelligent? The same situation. You.... Your, what is that rascal's name?
Dhrstadyumna: Mao Tse Tung.
Tamala Krsna: Mao. Mao.
Prabhupada: So he is supposed to be intelligent. He is supposed to be intelligent. So the two classes already there.
Tamala Krsna: Well, he says everyone can be equally intelligent.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but these classes must remain, the teacher class and the student class.
Tamala Krsna: Here's what they do. They take the teachers.... This is one of their program. Actually we have written a report which explains. They take the teachers, and they send the teachers out into the factory and into the farms for years.
Prabhupada: So anywhere you send, the student and teacher class is there. You change the name, you change the process, it doesn't matter, but the student class and teacher class will always remain. That is your foolishness. You are simply changing different names. But originally, as planned by nature, that is always there.
Dhrstadyumna: They say let the factory worker teach the teacher.
Prabhupada: Anyway, teacher class, rascal, it is teacher class. You make a teacher class.
Tamala Krsna: They say everyone should be teachers.
Prabhupada: That "should be" means not.
Tamala Krsna: No, they are making everyone teachers.
Prabhupada: And this "making" means not.
Dhrstadyumna: They are trying to make.
Prabhupada: That is all right. The classes, two classes, are there. You cannot change that. "Trying," "making," means two.
Hari-sauri: It's artificial.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Just like they let the students teach the teachers.
Prabhupada: That's right. So the teachers.... Sometimes you become teacher; sometimes I become teacher. What is this?
Tamala Krsna: They're trying to create a society where there are no superior-inferior.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: Classless society.
Prabhupada: They are taking themselves the superior position to make it one.
Tamala Krsna: (laughs) Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like some of the rascal swamis come here that "There is no teacher of.... No require teacher, no need of books."
Tamala Krsna: Then why do we need them?
Prabhupada: And these rascals are writing books, that "There is no need of book."
Tamala Krsna: That happened. One swami said, "Now you.... Meditation means don't think of anything." So then one of our men at the meeting raised his hand and said, "Then why do we need you?" So he got very angry. He said, "If the mind should do nothing, what do we need you for?"
Prabhupada: So what was his reply?
Tamala Krsna: He told his men to usher our man out. His men got very agitated because there was no reply. He couldn't give a reply, so they asked our man to leave for disturbing the sleeping of the public.
Prabhupada: Anyway, the whole world is rascal. They will manufacture and spoil time, their own time and others' time.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, we did a report telling.... We wanted to read this to you. It gives you an idea of what are the possibilities of spreading your books or Krsna consciousness in China. We made up a report for you. Do you want to hear it?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Tamala Krsna: Okay, you want to read it, Dhrstadyumna? 'Cause it is actually very useful, if not now, in the future, because this report is based on a lot of research. Read. [break]
Prabhupada: ...that if they are rascals, then don't try. You see? Reject them. But there is good potency in your country. You do peacefully here. If they are rascals, means stubborn rascals...
Tamala Krsna: You cannot imagine how rascal they are. That's why we wrote this report.
Prabhupada: Then don't try. Don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: It's a.... The Christians, they have a boat two hundred miles off the China coast, and they put little Bibles in cellophane bags and let the Bibles float into China.
Dhrstadyumna: Balloons.
Tamala Krsna: Balloons. That's how hard it is to preach there.
Prabhupada: That is also nonsense.
Tamala Krsna: No, it's nonsense, but the point is how difficult it is. We have...
Prabhupada: Then don't try. Don't waste time. Don't try. Better try in your country. You have got enough field, and they are intelligent and they are favorable. So why should we waste our time? There is no need. If you make your country, America, God conscious, Krsna conscious -- they are already -- that will be example to the whole world. These men, rascals' program, will be failure, finished, this, today or tomorrow. They'll never be successful. It is not.... That is not possible. If they have so foolishly declared that "We are going above the laws of nature," they're first-class rascals. Which is impossible. What they have conquered over the nature? These rascals will not die?
Tamala Krsna: No, they'll still die.
Prabhupada: Then? Then what is this? The rascals will not become old men? So what they have surpassed, laws of nature? What way? Simply making the teachers student and student teacher. Simply wasting time. Better you utilize your father's position, but for introducing our books to these high class men. Just you are trying to introduce books in the university libraries, similarly, you try to introduce these books to the high class. And that is not difficult. These men, they have got enough money. If they spend one thousand dollar for our books, that is nothing for them.
Tamala Krsna: One of your disciples, Praghosa, he's the biggest book distributor, practically. Tripurari trained him up. He is now starting a program of meeting with these executives and doing just this. He is working in New York, and he's developing a program like this.
Prabhupada: Now in India also they are trying. Yasomati.... Yasodanandana's report is that he approached one head librarian in Andhra Pradesh and...
Pusta Krsna: Karnataka.
Prabhupada: Karnataka. Karnataka province, educated province, Karnataka, South India, Karnataka, very educated. So he has immediately ordered thirty sets of books in different libraries. He has appreciated so much.
Pusta Krsna: The professors in Bombay, some of them are already reviewing Prabhupada's books very favorably.
Prabhupada: So you just touch the topmost men. But if, somehow or other, if you see some of the topmost men of the China, "You kindly read our books at your leisure."
Tamala Krsna: You can't approach those men.
Prabhupada: Then give it up. If it is too difficult, don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: It's not only difficult, it's impossible.
Prabhupada: Then don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: Completely impossible.
Prabhupada: Give up this idea.
Tamala Krsna: It may be possible fifty years from now.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Our descendants will try for that. But let us try where it is favorable. Don't waste time.
Tamala Krsna: We were really, you know, just looking for any loophole, but there is no loophole.
Prabhupada: No hole. That's all right. We don't care for it.
Tamala Krsna: The man we spoke to, when he heard what we wanted to do, he said, "Boys, you're up against the wall." He said, "You're up against the Great Wall." China has a wall called the Great Wall. He said, "You've come up against the Great Wall. You'll never cross it."
Prabhupada: No, they'll be.... Nature's law is so strong that they are also trying to knock their head in the wall. They will themselves break their head. The laws of nature is the same. If you try to break the walls from this side and if they try to break the walls from that side, both of them will lose their head. So if they are so foolish.... They are foolish. Everywhere such foolish men are there. They are trying to overcome the laws of nature. That is the greatest foolishness. That is the greatest foolishness. Just like government has got police force, military force, and if somebody tries to become, violate the laws of government by defying police force and military force -- that is futile. Is it possible, that "I shall defy the government laws"? No, there is police force. There is military. "I don't care for that." It is foolishness. It is simply foolishness. Similarly, these laws of nature means the force of the Supreme. So if you want to defy, you may waste your time. It is not possible. And practically, Krsna says, "Here I have enforced this miserable condition of material life." Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
Dhrstadyumna: Their goal is not so broad. They just want to control the...
Prabhupada: That means the little children's policy. Children, just like imagining so many things, "I shall do that. I shall do." The potter's imagination. You know that? Potter's imagination? You do not know the story? One potter is selling earthen pots, and he is saying that "Now, these two paisa, it has cost me one paisa. I shall make one paisa profit. Then I can make such profit. I shall invest again. I shall make another profit, another profit. In this way I shall become millionaire. Then I shall marry, and my wife shall be very obedient. And if (s)he does not become obedient, I shall give him a kick like this." And he, what was.... One pot was there. He kicked that pot and broke. (laughter) It broke. "Oh, again I am poor man." So this is going on, imagination. Imagination.... "I shall become so great that I shall kick Krsna's law," and whatever pot he had-broken. That's all. Rascals, simply rascals. If anyone thinks like that, that "I shall surpass the laws of nature," then he's madman. He's madman. So what is the use of dealing with madmen? And as soon as you challenge them that "Show us that you have surpassed the laws of nature," "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do." That's all. This is their reply. So it is better to avoid such men. But if you peacefully you can introduce, "All right, you will do. You are wonderful men, so kindly if you read some pages of this, it is not very costly. You can keep. At leisure hour you can read," in this way, imploring, then they will be benefited. That much we can do to any rascal. He sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya durat caitanya-candra-carane: "Oh, you are so nice. Therefore I am flattering you. I humbly obeisance. Kindly hear one thing. Keep some books. It is not very costly." Bas. This much you can do. And let them become puffed up by their false notions. But if they keep some books, sometimes they will read or their sons will read. That's all. Therefore I am stressing so much on books, that if the puffed-up rascals take some book and sometimes, if they read, he'll be benefited, perfectly benefited. So distribute these books anywhere possible. It doesn't matter where it is. The same process. Dante nidhaya trnakam padayor nipatya. The books will sell, that "You rascal number one, you set aside whatever learned. Read this." He sadhavah sakalam eva vihaya: "You are very learned, but forget what you have learned, all rascaldom. Try to read this book." Tavac ca sobhate murkho yavat kincin na bhasate: "A rascal fool is very beautifully dressed, very nice sitting. But his rascaldom will be disclosed as soon as he will speak." So these rascals, as soon as they speak, "We shall surpass the laws of nature," then we can understand what kind of rascals. Tavac ca sobhate murkhah. By their, these words we can take, "Oh, rascaldom," at once. "I shall break the wall. I shall push the mountain with my head." It is like that. If somebody is thinking that "I shall push the Himalayan mountains by knocking with my head," then we can understand. So where it is? A rascal, the innocent, he is also rascal. But innocent is eager to become intelligent, so there we shall deal. And the stubborn atheists, they are dvisat. They cannot be corrected immediately, unless they become ruined. [break] ...their standard of life. Try for that. Concentrate in your country. There is no need of going.... I was written, asking you that, that "If it is very hard job, don't try for that, useless waste of time." Incorrigible. So what is the use of going to a person...?
Tamala Krsna: We also researched a little bit about Russia. After we saw how it looked here -- it was impossible -- we were looking towards Russia. So we did some research on Russia also. There it's a little bit more open, but it's also, in terms of any kind of broad program, it is practically impossible. For example, distribution of books in Russia, there's only one company that buys the books. There's only one import...
Prabhupada: No, let him. One?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Room Conversation -- May 4, 1976, Honolulu
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
