Cardinal Danielou-Don't Kill

August 9, 1973

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Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And Jesus, Jesus is this. So I am very, very glad to meet you...Prabhupada: May, may I ask you one question? Jesus says: "Thou shalt not kill." So why Christian people are killing?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogesvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: It is forbidden in Christianity to kill. Surely. But chiefly we think that there is a difference between the life of man and the life the beasts. N'est ce pas? And that the life of man is sacred because man is the image of God. But we have not the same respect relating to the beasts, to the animals, and we think that the animals are at the service of man, and that it is legitime to man. For us, each life is not the same. What is really important is the life of man, and the human person is really sacred and it is forbidden to kill a human person...
Prabhupada: No, but Jesus does not says "human being". He just said generally: "Thou shalt not kill."
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French) In the Bible we have many example of, by example, we have many sacrifice in the sacrifice of animals. You know. Many sacrifice of animals in the Bible. Alors. This is not forbidden. It is sure that it is a great sin to kill a man, alors. There is surely the great question of the war, the war, the national war. And is, it is...
Prabhupada: You, you, you think that to kill an animal is no sin?
Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin. Because we think that the simple biologic life is not sacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, the human life. But not the life, ass.
Prabhupada: But I think that it is interpretation. Jesus Christ says generally: "Thou shalt not kill."
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not, the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old Testament, and it is a text...
Prabhupada: No, it is New Testament also.
Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament.
Prabhupada: No, is it not in the New Testament?
Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in the book of the Levitic.
Prabhupada: Ahhh.
Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word of the Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the Ten Commandments what God gave to Moses.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But Ten Commandments, one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill."
Yogesvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: (French) Mais, it is surely, I think, it is surely the killing of the man. I think, I have a great difficulty to understand why in Indian religion... Because it is impossible... By example, it is necessary, pour la nourriture?
Yogesvara: For food.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. For the food of man to eat, to eat, and...
Prabhupada: Man can eat grains, food grains, fruits, milk, sugar, wheat...
Cardinal Danielou: Not, not, (French)?
Yogesvara: No flesh?
Cardinal Danielou: No flesh?
Prabhupada: No. Why? Just like the fruits. The fruits are meant for human being. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. So tiger's food is another animal. Man's food is fruit, food grains, milk products. Just like fruit...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. I understand. It is why because grain and plants are also living beings.
Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right.
Cardinal Danielou: Living beings.
Prabhupada: That, that we also understand. But if, if you cannot live... Just like, generally, if I can live on fruits and grains and milk, why should I kill another animal?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes...
Prabhupada: Another thing is that how can you support that animal killing is not sin?
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Bhagavan: How do you justify it?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that there is a difference of nature between life of man, life of spirit, and biological, biological life. And we say... [break] ...not really exists, and we think so. We think that animals, plant are not real beings, are world of appearance and that you human person only is real being. And that in this sense, the material world is without importance.
Prabhupada: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living in this house. So you are not this house, that's a fact.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: But if I come and break your house, is it not inconvenience for you?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient.
Prabhupada: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is it not criminal?
Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is...
Prabhupada: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is it not criminal? Is it not sinful?
Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it is not the destruction of the spiritual man itself. By example, it is perfectly possible to use of the reality of the material world, of the natural world to the valuable finality of human vocation. We think that the question is a question of motivation. It could exist bad reason to kill an animal. But if the killing of animal is to give food to children, men, women, we ont faim. Qui...?
Devotee: Hungry.
Cardinal Danielou: Hungry, we are hungry, it is legitimate, legitimate... We have... It is difficult to admit that in India, comment dit-on les vaches?
Yogesvara: The cows.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the cows.
Prabhupada: One thing is...
Danielou: It is not permitted to kill a...?
Yogesvara: Cow.
Cardinal Danielou: ...a cow to give him to children who are hungry and the...
Prabhupada: No, no, from any other consideration, cows' milk we drink. Therefore she's mother. Is it not?
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui.
Yogesvara: N'est ce pas?
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, yes, surely, surely, but the...
Prabhupada: According to Vedic conversion, we have got seven mothers. Atma-mata, the original mother, guroh patni, wife of the master, spiritual master...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Bhagavan: Can you understand?
Yogesvara: (translates)
Prabhupada: Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wife of the priest.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou:
Prabhupada: Raja-patnika, the wife of king, the queen.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Prabhupada: Four. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhatri. Dhatri means nurse. Tatha prthvi. Prthvi means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupada: How can I deny that she's not mother? So how we can support killing of mother?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we think that...
Prabhupada: Therefore, in India, those who are meat-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction. Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up to buffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this. And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty...
Prabhupada: Yes, because the cow is mother.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes...
Prabhupada: You, you take the milk from the mother...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: And when she's old, she cannot give you milk, therefore she should be killed?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes.
Prabhupada: Is that very good proposal?
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, oui.
Yogesvara: He says yes, it is.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yogesvara: He says: "Yes, it is a good proposition."
Cardinal Danielou: If, if the men are hungry, it is the life of men is more important than the life of cow.
Prabhupada: Therefore, because we are propagating this Krsna consciousness, we ask people to, not to eat meat, any kind.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: But if, under certain circumstances, you are obliged to eat meat, eat the flesh of some lower animals. Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And so long one will be sinful, he'll not be able to understand what is God. But human being, main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if he remains sinful, neither he can understand God, and what to, what is the question of loving Him. Therefore at least from the human society, this cruel maintenance of slaughterhouses must be stopped.
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhaps not an essential point. I think that in this realm the uses of various religions can be good. The importance is to love God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Cardinal Danielou: But the commandment practical can be various.
Prabhupada: No. Just like God, if God says that: "You can do this," that is not sin. But if God says that: "You cannot do it", then it is sin.
Cardinal Danielou: When God says that it is not good to Indian, and says to the Jews that it is...
Prabhupada: No, no. Now take... Therefore I say that Jesus Christ, either you call him God, or confidential representative of God, both of them are one, when he says: "Thou shalt not kill," why should we interpret in an another way, to our convenience?
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, but Jesus eated (French, refers to passover lamb)
Yogesvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: Mutton, mutton.
Yogesvara: Oh, the sheep.
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the sheeps...
Prabhupada: That's all right, but Jesus Christ never maintained slaughterhouse.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Non, mais... He eated, he eated, he eated...
Prabhupada: In certain circumstances, when there is no other food, that a life must be saved. That is another thing. But why regularly slaughterhouse should be maintained for the satisfaction of the tongue?
Yogesvara: Is it clear? (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui. But I think there is, at first, a great duty to help men and women and children to live and actually it is the first duty. It is more important to help men and women to life. The life of beast is of minor importance than the life of men.
Prabhupada: From that point of view, you can kill lower animals. Why should you kill mother?
Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. Mother. Man, as human being is not the same that...
Prabhupada: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animals for maintaining your..., allowing that, there are many other, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at all require, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime, they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularly eat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So even animal killing is necessary for...
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is...
Prabhupada: ...for eating, then at least the mother animal should not be killed. That is from moral point of view.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view...
Prabhupada: So our point of view is that we don't allow killing any animal. Our Krsna says: patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Krsna says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these things should be offered to Me with devotion. And you should take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we take prasadam. And Krsna says: "Give Me foodstuff prepared from this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits, they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There are many fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree's not killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, one animal, one living entity is meant for being food for another living entity. Jivo jivasya jivanam. That we also accept, but that does not mean one living entity is the food for another living entity, that does not mean I can kill my mother, my child... That is not, sir. So at least this must be taken into consideration that cows, innocent, they give us milk, we take its milk, and we kill in regular slaughterhouse, this is not very good thing. It is sinful.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I understand that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much.
Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct)
Yogesvara: Does the fact that Christianity, does the fact that Christianity sanctions eating of meat mean that from the Christian viewpoint, lower species of life do not have a soul like human beings.
Cardinal Danielou: Dites en francais.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogesvara: (French)
Cardinal Danielou: Oui.
Yogesvara: He says: "No, that yes, this is the philosophy, that, that below the human level, the soul does not inhabit the body of other species."
Cardinal Danielou: The soul, the soul, the soul is, is human soul. In the animal you have some psychologic existence, but not life of spirit with freedom, with mind and with the reality of spirit. But you have the same idea because you said that there is a difference of nature between spiritual creation and the material world. You know, the material world is not of the same essence than the spiritual world. And the man, the man is a part of spiritual world.
Prabhupada: No. Our Bhagavad-gita says: sarva-yonisu. "In all species of life, as many forms are there, so the spirit soul is there." This outward body is just like a dress. You may have a very costly dress, and I may have a very shabby, poor dress, but both of us are human being, or living entities. Similarly these different forms of living entities, they are just like different types of dress. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you are in black dress. I am in saffron dress...
Cardinal Danielou: Yellow, yes.
Prabhupada: So this is external. But within the dress you are a human being, I am also human being. Similarly, there are eight million four hundred thousands of dresses. There are nine hundred thousand dresses within the water, aquatics.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Prabhupada: Similarly, two million kinds of dresses of the trees, plants, like that. In this way the Vedic literatures have calculated, there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of living entity. But they're all living entities, part and parcel of God. Just like one man has got ten sons. Not all of them equally meritorious. Not all. One may be high-court judge. And one may be ordinary clerk in the office. But father, both the high-court judge and the clerk in the office, father claims both of them as son.
Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, I agree.
Prabhupada: For father, there is no such distinction that: "This high-court judge is very important and the clerk in the office, my son, he's not important." So if the enlightened son, high-court judge, says to the father: "My dear father, your, this son, is useless. Let me cut him and eat." Will the father allow?
Yogesvara: (asks in French if this is clear)
Cardinal Danielou: Non.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Prabhupada: Apart from this consideration, at least this morality should be observed that cows, they're our mother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating the flesh.
Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea that it is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficulty is the metaphysic reason. You know.
Prabhupada: No, metaphysics, not...
Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life is parcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficult to admit. We can, there is a very great difference between the life of man who is really called to partake the life of God, and the animal life, who is (French)
Yogesvara: Temporary.
Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent. Life of man is permanent.
Prabhupada: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine.
Yogesvara: (translates)
Prabhupada: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there.
Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation?
Prabhupada: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life.
Yogesvara: Is it clear?
Cardinal Danielou: (French)
Yogesvara: (translates)
Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrow go to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I can tomorrow.
Yogesvara: (French) (end)

 

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© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

What is Sign of Love of God

June 29, 1976

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Pusta Krsna: Sometimes we meet people in our preaching activities. They may, of course, claim to be very devout Christian or Muslim, but at the same time they will blaspheme Krsna. Is it possible that such persons can actually be associates of God?Prabhupada: No, no. It is just like in our Krsna consciousness movement there are so many Christians, so many Jews, so many Mohammedan, and Hindus. Everyone is there. It is a question of understanding. So in the beginning if... But if he's serious to understand what is God, then he will accept Krsna the Supreme Lord. If he knows what is God, then he'll understand, "Here is God." If he remains in darkness, he does not know what is God, then how he'll understand Krsna? He'll understand Krsna as one of us. That's all. But if he knows what is God then he'll understand. Yes, here is God, Just like if a person knows what is gold, then anywhere gold, he'll understand, "Here is gold." It does not mean only gold, in certain shop only gold is available. But if he knows what is God, what is meaning of God, that he will find in Krsna in fullness. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The sastra says how He is Bhagavan, what is Bhagavan. You should understand and see from the activities of Krsna whether He is not Bhagavan. It requires brain to understand. I say, "Here is God." Now it is up to you. If you know what is God, then test it, and then you'll accept God. If you do not know how to test it, then you may refuse. That is another thing. You'll accept iron as gold. That is your ignorance. You do not know what is gold. But if you actually know what is gold, you will accept Krsna as God, there is no doubt about it. So this is the only platform, Bhagavad-gita. Everyone come and take to Krsna and understand God and learn how to love Him and your life is perfect.
Pusta Krsna: But if the Christians are saying that "This is the only platform, the Bible," and the Muslims are saying, "This is the only platform, Koran," and the community of followers of Bhagavad...
Prabhupada: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai pumsam paro dharmah. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof-say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love?There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, sad-aisvarya-purnah. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion. That is first class religion. Is that clear or not?
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: When there is question of love, then you must know what is God, then love. But if you do not know who is God, then how do you love Him?
Pusta Krsna: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion?
Prabhupada: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Krsna conscious people, Krsna is God, and we are worshiping Krsna. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think?
Kuladri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kirtanananda Maharaja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God.
Prabhupada: Then? What kind of love it is?
Kuladri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.
Prabhupada: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadati pratigrhnati bhunkte bhojayate caiva sad-vidham priti-laksanam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadati pratigrhnati. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadati pratigrhnati guhyam akhyati prcchati, and bhunkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love... The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God. There cannot be any other alternative. You must know the person who is God. Then you exchange. That we are teaching. We are asking our disciples to rise early in the morning, offer mangala arati, then bhoga arati. Are we so fools, rascals, that we are wasting time in worshiping a doll like that? Sometimes they think like that. But that is not the fact. You know definitely, "Here is Krsna. He is God, and we must love Him like this." That is the superexcellence of Krsna consciousness movement. We do everything definitely on positive platform. Is that clear? Huh? Or anyone, any question?
Pradyumna: Then... You said we must know God before we can love Him. So that means devotional service is preceded by knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad-gita. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Krsna, You are param brahma, param dhama [Bg. 10.12]," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Krsna proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible. So this is the science how to know God, Bhagavad-gita. The preliminary. If you want to know more, then read Bhagavatam. And if you are in intense love with God, then next, Caitanya-caritamrta, how the intensification can be more intensified. That is Caitanya-caritamrta. So Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary book to understand God and surrender. And from the surrendering point, further progress, that is Srimad-Bhagavatam. And when the love is intense, to make it more intensified, that is Caitanya-caritamrta. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, mad after God. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. "I find everything vacant without Krsna." That is the supreme ecstasy. So these things cannot happen (chuckles) without love. If you love somebody, then if he's not there you find everything vacant. Otherwise why? There are so many things. "How," people will say, "you are seeing vacant? Everything is filled up." That is another stage, transcendental platform. Lover and beloved, they can understand. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. That is the supreme stage of love. Is that clear or not?
Pradyumna: There's just one more thing. What's the minimum knowledge one must have to...
Prabhupada: God is great. That's all. God is great. Krsna proved that He's great. Therefore He's God. Everyone says, "God is great." Allah akbar, Muslims say. God is great. It is translated, "God is great." And Hindu says, param brahma. So God is great. So Krsna proved that He is all-great. Therefore He is God. Krsna, when He was present, He proved it that He is the great. Therefore He's God. If you accept God is great, and if you find somebody, he is great in everything, then he's God. How can I deny it? At least, you can see Krsna great by His Bhagavad-gita. It is still going on. Five thousand years passed, still Bhagavad-gita is accepted as the greatest book of knowledge all over the world. Even among the Christians, among the Muslims, those who are really learned, they take it, "Yes." That is greatness of Krsna, the knowledge. Who can give such knowledge? That is the proof that He is God. Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah... Jnana, knowledge. Where is such knowledge throughout the whole world? Everything, every line is sublime knowledge. If one studies scrutinizingly Bhagavad-gita, you find Krsna is Supreme Lord.
Pusta Krsna: Next question, Srila Prabhupada. Question nineteen. "Do you envisage or envision a different role for Hinduism in the Western countries where the influence of other great religions has been felt for centuries?
Prabhupada: No. There is no different role. God is one. God cannot be duplicate. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." That is God. Now people is to understand that Krsna is God. There is no different role. The role is the same. Five thousand years Krsna said that "I am the supreme authority. There is no more superior authority than Me." Still He is so. So we are simply attempting to introduce Krsna. Nobody attempted. Although five thousand years past, nobody attempted to introduce the supreme authority Krsna. We are just trying to introduce following the orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He, five hundred years appeared. He is Krsna. He wanted that this Krsna consciousness should be spread all over the world.
prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama
sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama
Krsna is not for India. He is for everyone because He is God. He claims that "I am the seed-giving father for all living entities." Not only the human society, but also other living entities like the aquatics, the insects, the plants, and the animals, all living entities. He says, aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Everything is there, but this cult of Krsna consciousness, or Bhagavad-gita as it is, was not preached properly. Everyone interpreted Bhagavad-gita in his own way to satisfy his own whims. We are just trying for the first time to present Bhagavad-gita as it is, and it is being effective. So it is not a different role. It is the actual role. Nobody tried for it. Therefore Krsna was unknown, but we are trying for this for the few years. But because it is reality, it is being accepted. It is being accepted. No attempt was made that. So it is not a new role. The role is already there: to preach. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's vision. He says especially to Indian people,
bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
 [Cc. Adi 9.41]
Indians are meant to do this business for para-upakara because all over the world they are unaware of Krsna. So anyone who is actually Indian, he should attempt to broadcast the message of Bhagavad-gita and Krsna. That is order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
 [Cc. Adi 9.41]
This is paropakara. They are suffering without any knowledge of Krsna. Give them this knowledge. That is para-upakara, doing welfare activities to others. So that attempt is now being made, and people actually accepting. So it not a new role. The role is already there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu five hundred years told, years before He told it. But the so many swamis and yogis, they came here, they never introduced Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now it is being done and people are accepting, naturally. This is Krsna consciousness movement. So if everyone joins, either Indian, non-Indian, in this movement there will be one religion and there will be peace. Peace will prevail. This is the only way.
bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
sarva-loka-mahesvaram
suhrdam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim rcchati
 [Bg. 5.29]
This is the way of santi, understand Krsna, that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend for everyone. Accept Krsna as your friend, you'll be happy. This is the message of Krsna consciousness.
Pusta Krsna: This next question is very closely related to the last question. Question twenty. "What is your view regarding proselytization or preaching? If you are..."
Prabhupada: It is not proselytization. Proselytization has no meaning. To bring one to the real understanding. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. All living entities are His part and parcel. He claims, sarva-yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. In all forms of life, as many living entities are there, aham bija-pradah, I am the seed-giving father. So the natural position is that every living entity, not only human being, but also animals, plants, everyone... So why not Indian, American, or Czechoslavakian, everyone is part and parcel of Krsna? So it not the process of proselytizing to convince the idea. It is actually bringing them to their real position, that they're all part and parcel of Krsna. It is not artificial proselytization that "You are Christian, now you are Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." "You are a sweeper, now you are harijana." It is not like that. It is actually bringing him to his own position, part and parcel of God. It is not... Proselytization will not stand. When one comes to the real understanding of his position, then that will continue. This Krsna consciousness movement is that. Bringing one to the original position. He's in diseased condition, he's thinking otherwise than servant of Krsna. Now this movement is trying to bring everyone to the position that he is eternal servant of Krsna. It is not a rubberstamp proselytization that "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." Or "You are Christian, now are Hindu." So if he does not know what is his position by simply stamping that he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, what benefit he will derive?
Pusta Krsna: The same ignorance.
Prabhupada: If you keep him in the ignorant platform, then what is the benefit of making a Hindu Muslim or Muslim Hindu? That was going on, "holy war," between Christians and the Muslims. Because both of them will die. (chuckles) And they are engaged in holy war. War, but "holy war." "Holy impiety." Artificial change of "ism" will not help. One must know the philosophy of life. One must know what is God. One must learn how to love God. That is real life.
Pusta Krsna: There is one more question, Srila Prabhupada. Question 21. "Are changes visible in Hinduism in its doctrinal content, mode of individual and collective worship as a result of Hinduism's contact with the West?"
Prabhupada: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Krsna consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaisnavism. Vaisnava means Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Visnu or loves God, he is Vaisnava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajanti anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshiper of demigods, they are lusty. Kamuka. And the kamuka platform is material world, lusty. Everyone is trying to enjoy sense gratification. So demigod worship is for sense gratification. If you worship Durga, then you pray, "Mother Durga, give me name, fame, wealth, good wife, and so on, so on." Dhanam dehi rupam dehi rupavati-bharyam dehi. Simply demanding for sense gratification. So that is not love of Godhead. That is to select one agent of God and exact from him as much as you can for your sense gratification. That is not recommended in the Vedic religion. Vedic religion, although there are demigods, but the ultimate is om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah. Those who are suraya, actually advanced, they see to the Visnu paramam padam. Visnor aradhanam param. The worship of Visnu is the supreme worship. So actually everyone should be worshiper of Visnu. And that is Vaisnavism. So Vaisnavism means for everyone or sanatana dharma. That I have already explained. The human.... The living entity is sanatana. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. He is sanatana. God is sanatana. The exchange between God and the living entity is called sanatana-dharma or Vaisnavism. So we are teaching that. We are not teaching Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. There is no question of proselytization. It is the natural. We are, by nature we are lover of God. Just like father and son. The love is already there. It cannot be extinguished. The father and son may be separated for many, many years, but when they come together the affection immediately revives. So we are teaching that, that we have got eternal relationship with God and revive it. We are embarassed by establishing artificial relationship with my family, country, and society, and so-called religions. These are all artificial. Real relationship, that "God is great and I am His servant," that is real religion. So we are teaching that thing.
Pusta Krsna: So the teaching is the same in India as it is in the Western countries.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is being proved. Otherwise how they are worshiping Krsna all over the world?
Pusta Krsna: This question here is "In doctrinal content and mode of individual and collective worship..." Is that to say that in your preaching in the Western countries and your preaching in India, you haven't attempted... In the Western countries where there is so many mlecchas, outcastes, so to speak.
Prabhupada: That is accepted by Krsna. Even one is mleccha. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. So there is no question. That is artificial. One is mleccha or one is brahmana, but that is artificial. That is skin. But within the skin of the mleccha or the brahmana the same spirit soul is there. Therefore those who are pandita, those who are learned,
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
 [Bg. 5.18]
One who is actually learned, he sees the same spirit soul within the brahmana, within the mleccha, within the cat. (end)

 

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Sanctity for the Sinful

June 29, 1976

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Smoke: this is tapasya. And they are smoking before teacher. No offense. What you'll expect from such student? Animal civilization. This is not civilization. No tapasya, no brahmacari. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. And tapasya begins from brahmacari. Tapasa brahmacaryena samena [SB 6.1.13], to control. Brahmacari guru-grhe vasan dantah. How to control senses, that is the beginning of life. Not ABCD learning and maybe your character may be less than an animal's, and you have got a degree of the university. You become a learned man. No. That is not accepted. Even from moral instruction, who is educated? That is described by Canakya Pandit.matrvat para-daresu
para-dravyesu lostravat
atmavat sarva-bhutesu
yah pasyati sa panditah
Here is pandita. That is learned man. Panditah sama-darsinah. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi [Bg. 5.18]. He is learned man. Not this degree holder. A degree holder, he has no tapasya, he has no character and his knowledge is called mayayapahrta-jnana. Although he has learned so many things, but maya has taken away his knowledge. He's a rascal. He's animal. This is Vedic civilization. [break]
Pusta Krsna: Question number twelve. "What is the role of rituals in religion? Are they to be discouraged as it is being advocated by some reformists or are they to be encouraged? If so, in what form? What is the role of rituals in religion?"
Prabhupada: Ritual is a practice based on tapasya. Unless one undergoes the ritualistic ceremony, he remains unclean. But in this age, because it is practically impossible to induce people to take all these ritualistic processes, therefore it is recommended that "Chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra." That is special advantage of this age, that by constant chanting of Hare Krsna maha-mantra he automatically becomes purified. That is recommendation given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The beginning is cleansing the heart, because we are impure on account of dirty things within our heart accumulated life after life in the animalistic way of life. So everything, advancement of spiritual life, culture, tapasya means cleansing the heart. So this process, chanting the maha-mantra, the first installment of benefit is cleansing the heart. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. And when the heart is cleansed, then he becomes eligible for being free from the clutches of maya or the materialistic way of life. When he understands that he is not this body, he's spirit soul, his business is different, and he understands that "I am engaged only in these bodily comforts of life, it is not at all essential because it will change. Today I am in American body, I have got so many duties as American. Tomorrow I may be American dog body. So immediately my duty changes. So that is not my real business. My real business is how to elevate myself as spirit soul to the spiritual world, back to home, back to Godhead." Then he changes his... Ceto... Bhava... Then this materialistic activity is stopped. He is no more interested, that "This is simply waste of time." That is knowledge, that "I am simply acting for the benefit and comfort of the body. This is simply waste of time. I must act spiritually." That is called ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. He is wrongly working on the basis of bodily concept of life. That illusion is over simply by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. This is the first installment, ceto-darpana-marjanam, and bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Then he is in the process to stop the blazing fire of material existence. Then vidya-vadhu-jivanam anandambudhi-vardhanam. Then the ocean of transcendental bliss increases. Anandambudhi-vardanam sarvatmanam snapanam. Wholesale blissful life. Param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. All glories to the chanting of Krsna sankirtana. Then the other processes... That is described in the Siksastaka. So this is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's gift, that kevalaya bhaktya. All the practices of austerities, penances, and mystic yoga, and so on, so on. There are so many things. Everything will be totally achieved simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Bhakti.
kecit kevalaya bhaktya
vasudeva-parayanah
agham dhunvanti kartsnyena
niharam iva bhaskarah
 [SB 6.1.15]
Just like when there is sunrise, immediately the all-pervading fog disappears. Now this Kali-yuga, by bhakti-yoga, especially by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one can be fully reformed and come to spiritual platform, and that is success of life.
Pusta Krsna: The next question kind of relates a little bit in the same direction. Question thirteen. "There are various samskaras prescribed in the life of a Hindu right from his birth to death."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: "Many of these samskaras are not being observed today. Should they be revived?"
Prabhupada: Samskara... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called samskara. Janmana jayate sudra. By birth everyone is the same, sudras, means without any knowledge. But the samskara means sudra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called samskara. And samskarad bhaved dvijah. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called samskara. So these samskara, there are dasa-vidha-samskarah... So in this age it is very difficult, but if one chants Hare Krsna maha-mantra without any offense, being trained up by the spiritual master, all the samskaras automatically become done and he comes to his original spiritual position, aham brahmasmi, "I am spirit soul. The Krsna is Param Brahman, and I am Brahman." As Arjuna said, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Krsna is also Brahman, I am also Brahman. But He's Supreme Brahman, I am minute Brahman. So my business is to serve Krsna. That is teachings of Lord Caitanya, jivera 'svarupa' haya (sic:) nitya krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. So if he engages himself in his original spiritual business, to act as the servant of Krsna, then all reformation is done. So that advantage is given in this age: kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param... [SB 12.3.51]. Reformatory process is meant for purifying him so he becomes mukta-sangah. Mukta-sangah means liberated from all this bad association of material existence. And he becomes eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. So this is the special advantage. The question is "Whether they should be revived?" They should be revived to the lowest necessity, but all of them cannot be revived in this age. But people should be induced to take to chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Then all reformation will automatically become manifest and he will come to spiritual platform, brahma-bhutah, the realization of Brahman. Then prasannatma, he'll be happy. There is no lamentation, there is no undesirable hankering. Na socati na kanksati. He sees everyone on the spiritual platform. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. In this way he comes to the platform of devotional service, and then his life becomes successful. Is that question answered or not?
Pusta Krsna: Yes. Just one question I have. You said that the samskaras should be revived to the lowest?
Prabhupada: The minumum possible way. Just like to make him a brahmana. So to become a brahmana these four things are essential: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. This must be there. You cannot avoid wholesale.
Pusta Krsna: Cannot avoid?
Prabhupada: Wholesale. You must avoid at least sinful activities.
yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
 [Bg. 7.28]
You cannot become a devotee unless you are completely sinless. So to become completely sinless you have to begin with these four prohibitory injunctions, or avoid sinful activities like illicit sex, meat-eating, smoking, intoxication and gambling. Then you'll be gradually completely sinless. One side, to practice things, and another side, to engage yourself in devotional service. To engage oneself devotional service under the order of spiritual master and the sastra means to remain on the transcendental platform. Transcendental platform means there is no sinful activity. It is above. Sinful.... Pious and sinful activities are there so long you are on the material platform. Good and bad. Piety and sinful. But when you are on the transcendental platform, then you are automatically without sin.
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
 [Bg. 14.26]
Sin, life of vice and life of piety, they are within this material world. But when one is spiritually engaged, he is above the spiritual plane. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. So one side, voluntarily accepting these prohibitory process.... You can keep it open. (the door)
Hari-sauri: Tell him to leave the door open.
Prabhupada: So the whole thing is that if you chant hare Krsna maha-mantra and give up these sinful activities, automatically you become reformed, come to the spiritual platform, and in this way your life will become successful.
Pusta Krsna: Can we go on to the next question, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Pusta Krsna: Question fourteen. "It is said that the karma-kanda in the Vedas has almost gone out of use, except for a few rites which remain in vogue for marriage, sraddhas, etc. Is it advisable to revive the karma-kanda with its stress on the performance of various yajnas?"
Prabhupada: So that is not possible in this... Taking consideration of the time, circumstances, it is not possible. There are different kinds of karma-kandiya-yajna. It is expensive also and there is no expert brahmana to guide how to perform this yajna. So Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform yajnas. Krte yad dhyayato visnum tretayam yajato makhaih [SB 12.3.52]. In the Treta-yuga yajnas were possible. Dvapare paricaryayam kalau tad dhari-kirtanat, that in this age of Kali-yuga the real yajna is hari-kirtana. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [SB 11.5.32]. Therefore those who are intelligent, having good brain substance, they take to this yajna, sankirtana-yajna. And practically we are experiencing, simply by sankirtana-yajna, even the lowest person in the sinful activities, he is becoming purified. So karma-kanda is, to revive them in this age is not possible. Neither jnana-kanda. That is also not possible. People are so fool and rascal that it is impossible. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said... He has condemned karma-kanda, jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done. Karma-kanda, by performing ritualistic ceremonies of karma-kanda, you can go to the heavenly planet. But what is the benefit there? You can enjoy there materialistic way of life in higher standard. That's all. You can live for a very, very long duration of period. But that does not mean that you become immortal. The demigods, they are called amara. Amara means they have got very long duration of life. Does not mean he is immortal. So by karma-kanda you can elevate yourself to the higher planetary system. Even it is properly done... And now it is not possible to do it properly. And even it is properly done, that is condemned. It is not required. Similarly jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done... You can merge yourself into the Brahman effulgence. But that is also not safe because in the sastra we see that aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32]. Even one merges oneself into the impersonal Brahman, he again falls down. Patanty adhah. We have seen practical, in India many sannyasis, they elevate themselves by jnana-kanda, but because they cannot stay, they again come to the karma-kanda, philanthropy activities and hospitals and schools. That is their fall down. So either in karma-kanda or jnana-kanda you cannot achieve the real purpose of life. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura has said, karma-kanda jnana-kanda sakali visera bandha. Either you accept karma-kanda or jnana-kanda, they're different pots of poison. Amrta boliya jeba khai. If by mistake you take poison, death is inevitable. Similarly, by karma-kanda, jnana-kanda nobody can derive any actual benefit. By upasana-kanda, that is the... The Vedas, Vedic ritualistic ceremony means there are three kandas: karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, and upasana-kanda. So upasana-kanda, there are recommendation of many, worship of many demigods. But the best upasana is Visnupasana. Visnor aradhanam sarvesam. Visnor aradhanam param. Om tad visnum paramam padam. There are different types of upasana recommendation, but the visnor aradhanam, worshiping Lord Visnu, that is the Supreme. That is Supreme. So gradually, there is elevation to karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, upasana-kanda, but in the Kali-yuga all these things are not possible to revive. Best directly give him the best upasana-kanda, Visnupasana, bhakti, everything will be automatically achieved by bhakti-marga.
Pusta Krsna: The next question, Srila Prabhupada, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life."
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varnasrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varnasrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varnas. Some of them selected, trained as brahmanas. Some of them trained as ksatriya, some of them as vaisya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are sudras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varnasrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. One may... Samskarad bhaved dvija. And Sanatana Gosvami says that
yatha kancanatam yati
kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah
tatha diksa-vidhanena
dvijatvam jayate nrnam
As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the sastra. If you are able to do it, you can do it, turn gold some of these bell metals. So the example is given that as the bell metal, base metal, can be turned into gold by chemical process, similarly, by diksa-vidhanena, by proper initiation by the bona fide spiritual master, everyone can be turned into dvija, twice-born. Dvijatvam jayate nrnam. Nrnam means all men. It is not there is no discrimination, that only the Hindus, only the Indians, or only the so-called brahmanas can be turned. Everyone can be turned. That is the injunction. So this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to do that, trying everyone to become a bona fide brahmana. Without becoming a brahmana you cannot become Vaisnava. So this reformatory process is recommended in the sastras. What is the question?
Pusta Krsna: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In...
Prabhupada: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the sastras one should be elevated to the position of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisyas, and sudra. Sudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Krsna says papa-yoni? Papa-yoni. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudras. They are also taken as papa-yoni. And what to speak of the sudras and candalas? They must be papa-yoni. Only the brahmana, ksatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau sudra-sambhavah. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brahmana, who is ksatriya, who is a vaisya, who is a sudra. It is accepted that everyone is a sudra because there is no reformation. So according to Pancaratriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaisnava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathad bhaved viprah. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brahmana. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Visnu, then he becomes a Vaisnava. That is perfection of life.
Pusta Krsna: Is this practical in the present context?
Prabhupada: Yes. We are doing it. See. If anyone has eyes to see they can see how we are accepting the papa-yoni, so-called papa-yoni to become the topmost Vaisnava, that is possible. Unless it is possible how it is being done all over the world? There is no consideration. The process is so effective that it is being done. They are taking it as a proselytization. But it is not proselytizing. Proselytization is superflous. If one is Hindu you make him a Christian, and you change the name. But what is the use of changing the name if you do not reform him about his character? Simply changing the name from Hindu to Muslim or Muslim to Christian, that does not make him better...
Pusta Krsna: This next question is rather interesting. Question sixteen. "Is it not possible for all sections of Hindus, be they Advaitans, Dvaitans, or visistadvaitans, to come together instead of remaining isolated as warring factions?"
Prabhupada: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. This is the process of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, to bring all the dvaitas and advaitas in one platform. To understand that he is essentially servant of God. The Advaitas, they are wrongly thinking that he is God himself. That is wrong, or not the proper way of thinking. How you can become God? God is sad-aisvarya-purnam, full with six opulences, all-powerful, all-strenght, all-beauty, all opulent. So this is artificial, to think to become God. And... This is Advaita. And Dvaitas, they think that one is different from God, God is separate from the living entity. But actually, from the Bhagavad-gita we understand that God is always the Supreme and the living entities, they are subordinate. And in the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). Both of them are living entities, but God is the chief. The difference between the two, that God maintains other living entities. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That is a fact. We are maintained and God is the maintainer. We are predominated, we are not independent, and God is predominator. But because the predominated living entities, they are part and parcel of God, therefore in quality they are one. This is acintya-bhedabheda, one and different. The living entity is one in the sense because he is part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, the living entity is also gold. That is one in quality. But god is great and we are minute, small. In that way we are different. Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has enunciated acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable, simultaneously one and different. That is real philosophy. So on this philosophy everyone can come if they are reasonable. If they remain unreasonably stuck up in their own concocted philosophy, then it is difficult. Otherwise this is the fact, that the living entity is eternally part and parcel of God. Sanatana. What is that verse? Find out. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. Fifteenth chapter.
Hari-sauri:
mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
 [Bg. 15.7]
"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind."
Prabhupada: So if he's eternal fragmental parts, how he can become one with the whole? The part is never equal to the whole. That is axiomatic truth. This is wrong conception, to become like God. The Mayavadis, they are trying to become God. That is impossible. They... Let them remain godly. Godly means servant of God. That will make him perfection, his life perfect. Vaisnava philosophy is to remain, to act as servant of God. That is perfect. And if the servant tries to become like the master, that is artificial. Although in the spiritual world there is no difference between the master and the servant... Just like the boys, Krsna's cowherd boy friends, they do not know Krsna is God. They are playing with Him on equal terms. When Krsna is defeated in the play He has to take His friend on His shoulder and he rides on the shoulder. So there is no such distinction who is God and who is not God. So that is spiritual conception. But the difference is always there. God and the part and parcel. Krta-punya-punjah. We can attain that position after many, many lives' pious activities. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
ittham (satam) brahma-sukhanubhutya
dasyam gatanam para-daivatena
mayasritanam nara-darakena
sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah
 [SB 10.12.11]
These boys are playing with Krsna. Who is Krsna? He is the essence of Brahma-sukha, Param Brahman. So these boys are playing with Param Brahman. Ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya dasyam gatanam para-daivatena. And for the devotees He's the supreme master, and for the ordinary man He is ordinary child. But these other children who are playing, they have got this position krta-punya-punjah. "After many, many births' pious activities, now I have got this position, playing with Krsna on equal terms." So this is the conception of devotional service, that when you go to the Goloka Vrndavana you cannot distinguish.... But they have got unflinching love for Krsna. That is Vrndavana life. The cows, the calves, the trees, the flowers, the water, the elderly men, Nanda Maharaja and Yasodamayi, everyone is attached, central point is Krsna. Everyone is loving Krsna. And there is no such knowledge that Krsna is the Supreme Personality.... Sometimes they see Krsna's wonderful activities and they talk on: "Krsna may be some demigod. He has come here." But they could never recognize that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Krsna passed some dangerous position, so many demons were coming, mother Yasoda was chanting some mantras to protect Krsna that "He may not be put into some calamity." They never understood that Krsna is the Supreme Personality. But their natural love for Krsna so intense. Therefore Vrndavana life is so exalted. Aradha... What is called? Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanaya tad-dhama vrndavanam. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that first of all Krsna, Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanada Maharaja, He is aradhya. Tad-dhama vrndavanam. And His dhama, His abode, Vrndavana, is also worshipable. They are equal. Vrndavana-dhama and Krsna, they are equal. So these are higher standard of understanding. Unless one is devotee, purified, he cannot understand that to become one with God is not the sublime idea. In Vrndavana one who wants to become the father or mother of God, to control God, that these Mayavadis cannot understand, Advaitavadis. This is to be understood by the pure devotion, devotees. What is the benefit to become equal with God? Just become.... equal.... Other Vaisnava philosophies they could not explain our relationship with God. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained the higher relationship with God. That is called vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Especially madhurya-rasa. Anarpita carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojvala-rasam sva bhakti sriyam. Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave information of the madhurya-rasa, that our relationship can be with Krsna in conjugal love. So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible.
Pusta Krsna: The next question, Srila Prabhupada, question 17. "What is the future of Hinduism?"
Prabhupada: There is no future. It is already gone. (laughter) The future is already there. And what do you want more future? A man was beaten with shoes, and again he said that "He has threatened me, to insult me." So if he is beaten with shoes, then what insult remains to be done again? So Hinduism now finished. Now take to the process of Krsna's order, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Teach this teaching of Bhagavad-gita to the whole world. Not only Hinduism; Christianism, and Muslimism, everything's gone. And even it is not gone, Krsna says, " Give up all this nonsense." Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. Simply surrender unto Me." That is to be preached all over the world, and that is being effective. So if the Hindus are interested in Bhagavad-gita, which was spoken in the Hindustan, in the land of Hindus, they must seriously take to this instruction of Krsna and combine together and preach all over the world and make others benefited and themselves benefited. That is the only way. There is no other second way.
Pusta Krsna: Next question. Question number 18. "As the world is coming to be divided into just two classes, atheist and theist, is it not advisable for all religions to come together, and what positive steps can be taken in this direction?"
Prabhupada: That is already taken, already explained. This Krsna consciousness movement. The atheist class and theist class, they will exist always. This is material world. Even at home the father is atheist, Hiranyakasipu, and the son is theist. So even at home the father and the son different. So that atheist class and theist class men will always exist in family, in community, in nation, in the... as you go on. But the theist class should take to the proposition of the Bhagavad-gita and take shelter at his lotus feet, giving up so-called religious principles. That is oneness. Religion without conception of God, conception of God is humbug, bogus. Religion means to accept the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know who is God, so there is no question of accepting His order. It is stated in the Vedic literature dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Find out this verse in the Sixth Canto. [break] ...Yamaraja's instruction.
Devotee: Yes. (pause)
Hari-sauri:
dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam
na vai vidur rsayo napi devah
na siddha-mukhya asura manusyah
kuto nu vidyadhara-caranadayah
 [SB 6.3.19]
"Translation: Real religious principles are enacted by..."
Prabhupada: Ha! Real.
Hari-sauri: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great rsis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyadharas and Caranas."
Prabhupada: Hm. [break]
Hari-sauri: This is Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, Text Nineteen. When challenged by the Visnudutas to describe the principles of religion, the Yamadutas said, veda-pranihito dharmah: the religious principles are the principles enacted in the Vedic literature. They did not know, however, that the Vedic literature contains ritualistic ceremonies that are not transcendental, but are meant to keep peace and order among materialistic persons in the material world. Real religious principles are nistraigunya, above the three modes of material nature, or transcendental. The Yamadutas did not know these transcendental religious principles, and therefore when prevented from arresting Ajamila they were surprised. Materialistic persons who attach all their faith to the Vedic rituals are described in Bhagavad-gita (2.42), wherein Krsna says, veda-vada-ratah partha nanyad astiti vadinah: the supposed followers of the Vedas say that there is nothing beyond the Vedic ceremonies. Indeed, there is a group of men in India who are very fond of the Vedic rituals, not understanding the meaning of these rituals, which are intended to elevate one gradually to the transcendental platform of knowing Krsna (vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]). Those who do not know this principle but who simply attach their faith to the Vedic rituals are called veda-vada-ratah.
Herein it is stated that the real religious principle is that which is given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That principle is stated in Bhagavad-gita. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] one should give up all other duties and surrender unto the lotus feet of Krsna. That is the real religious principle everyone should follow. Even though one follows Vedic scriptures, one may not know this transcendental principle, for it is not known to everyone. To say nothing of human beings, even the demigods in the upper planetary systems are unaware of it. This transcendental religious principle must be understood from the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly or from His special representative, as stated in the next verses.
Prabhupada: So, therefore... Next verse.
Hari-sauri:
svayambhur naradah sambhuh
kumarah kapilo manuh
prahlado janako bhismo
balir vaiyasakir vayam
 [SB 6.3.20]
Prabhupada: Vaiyasakir vayam.
Hari-sauri: Dvadasaite vijanimo...
Prabhupada: Dvadasaite.
Hari-sauri: Dharmam bhagavatam bhatah, guhyam visuddham durbodham yam jnatvamrtam asnute. "Lord Brahma, Bhagavan Narada, Lord Siva, the four Kumaras, Lord Kapila (the son of Devahuti), Svayambhuva Manu, Prahlada Maharaja, Janaka Maharaja, Grandfather Bhisma, Bali Maharaja, Sukadeva Gosvami and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhagavat-dharma or surrender unto the Supreme Lord..."
Prabhupada: So these people, these mahajanas, they know what is the principles of religion. Religion means bhagavata-dharma, to understand God and our relationship with God. That is religion. You may call it Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion, but real religion is that which teaches how to love God. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. If by following the religious system, you come to the platform of loving God, then your religious system is perfect. Otherwise it is a simply waste of time, bogus religion, without conception of God. So unless one understands what is God and what He says, and we have to abide by that order, then we are religious and there is religion and there is God, there is everything complete.
Pusta Krsna: This is off the record, but one may ask if someone like Christ or Moses was not mentioned amongst the mahajanas, present some sort of religion...
Prabhupada: No, mahajana there is in Christian messiahs. There is mahajana. And later on, after Christ, there was so many other. Saint Matthew, Saint Thomas, like that. Mahajana is mentioned there. How can you say there is no mahajana? Mahajana means who is strictly following the original religion. That is called mahajana. Or who know the things as they are. They are called mahajana. And that means parampara system. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is learning Bhagavad-gita directly from Krsna. He's mahajana. So you learn from Arjuna. And after hearing Bhagavad-gita, as Arjuna acted, as Arjuna understood Krsna, you follow that. Then mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Then you are following the mahajana. You are on the real path. Just like we are. Here it is said, mahajana, Svayambhu. Svayambhu means Brahma, Lord Brahma. So our, this sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya, is Brahma-sampradaya. And Svayambhu, Narada. Narada is also in the brahma-sampradaya. And Sambhu, Lord Siva, he is also mahajana. He has got his sampradaya, Rudra-sampradaya. And similarly, Sri-sampradaya. So all these sampradaya we must follow. Sampradaya vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If you do not belong to sampradaya, mahajana, then you are useless. You cannot concoct any religious system. So either you be Christian or Hindu it doesn't matter. You have to follow the mahajana. If a Christian says, "I don't believe in St. Thomas," what kind of Christian he is? Similarly, it doesn't matter who is a maha... But real mahajana is he who is strictly following the principle as enunciated by God. That is religious system. Otherwise there is no religion. There is no question of religion. It is simply concoction. Mano-dharmi, mental speculator. Mental speculation is not religion. Religion is the order of Krsna and one who follows that order, he is religious. That's all.
Pusta Krsna: This next question, Srila Prabhupada, question nineteen.
Prahupada: Now this question is clear?
Pusta Krsna: Yes. So far I can understand, you're saying that there's no need to label that there's one religion in the world. Rather, everyone can...
Prabhupada: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Saksad, Bhagavan Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this platform, how to love God. That is Krsna consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous.
dharmah svanusthitah pumsam
visvaksena-kathasu yah
notpadayed yadi ratim
srama eva hi kevalam
 [SB 1.2.8]
You are very good, you are following your religious principle very strictly, adherently. That's all right. But what about your love of God? "Oh, that I do not know." So sastra says, srama eva hi... It is simply waste of time, and simply laboring. That's all. If you have not learned to love God, then what is the meaning of your religion? Then, when you're actually on the platform of love of God, you understand your relationship with God, that "I am part and parcel of God. Not only I am part and parcel of God, this dog is also part and parcel of.... Every living entity." Then you'll extend love for animal also. If you actually love God, then your love for insect also is there because you understand that "This insect, it has got a different body only, but he is also part and parcel, or my brother." Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then you cannot maintain slaughterhouse. If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion. Then srama eva hi kevalam. Your going to the temple and church and everything is simply waste of time. Srama eva hi kevalam. Because you do not understand God. You have no love for God. That is going on, all over the world. They're stamping under some sect, but there is no real religion. So in order to bring them all in one platform, they have to accept the principles of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you do not accept in the beginning Krsna, that He is the supreme, then you try to understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is education. There is somebody supreme. So if I say, because I am Hindu, I am Indian, that "Krsna is the supreme," you may say, "Then why Krsna? Krsna is Indian." "No. He is God. Just like the sun rises first in India, then comes to Europe. But that does not mean the sun is different. Similarly, Krsna, although appeared in India, now He has come to Western countries, Krsna consciousness movement. You try to understand whether Krsna is not God or God. But He is God. There is no doubt about it. If you have got intelligence to understand what is God, then try to understand. But He is God undoubtedly. So take to Krsna consciousness and abide by the order of Krsna. Then everyone comes on the same platform, the religious platform, one religion, Krsna consciousness.
Pusta Krsna: Question 19, this is...
Prabhupada: Now, this is clear or not?
Pusta Krsna: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: Anyone? We are part and parcel of Krsna, our business is to surrender to Him. And Krsna personally advises that "You surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." This is religion.
Pusta Krsna: Sometimes we meet people in our preaching activities. They may, of course, claim to be very devout Christian or Muslim, but at the same time they will blaspheme Krsna. Is it possible that such persons can actually be associates of God?
Prabhupada: No, no. It is just like in our Krsna consciousness movement there are so many Christians, so many Jews, so many Mohammedan, and Hindus. Everyone is there. It is a question of understanding. So in the beginning if... But if he's serious to understand what is God, then he will accept Krsna the Supreme Lord. If he knows what is God, then he'll understand, "Here is God." If he remains in darkness, he does not know what is God, then how he'll understand Krsna? He'll understand Krsna as one of us. That's all. But if he knows what is God then he'll understand. Yes, here is God, Just like if a person knows what is gold, then anywhere gold, he'll understand, "Here is gold." It does not mean only gold, in certain shop only gold is available. But if he knows what is God, what is meaning of God, that he will find in Krsna in fullness. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The sastra says how He is Bhagavan, what is Bhagavan. You should understand and see from the activities of Krsna whether He is not Bhagavan. It requires brain to understand. I say, "Here is God." Now it is up to you. If you know what is God, then test it, and then you'll accept God. If you do not know how to test it, then you may refuse. That is another thing. You'll accept iron as gold. That is your ignorance. You do not know what is gold. But if you actually know what is gold, you will accept Krsna as God, there is no doubt about it. So this is the only platform, Bhagavad-gita. Everyone come and take to Krsna and understand God and learn how to love Him and your life is perfect.
Pusta Krsna: But if the Christians are saying that "This is the only platform, the Bible," and the Muslims are saying, "This is the only platform, Koran," and the community of followers of Bhagavad...
Prabhupada: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai pumsam paro dharmah. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof-say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love?There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, sad-aisvarya-purnah. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion. That is first class religion. Is that clear or not?
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: When there is question of love, then you must know what is God, then love. But if you do not know who is God, then how do you love Him?
Pusta Krsna: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion?
Prabhupada: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Krsna conscious people, Krsna is God, and we are worshiping Krsna. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think?
Kuladri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kirtanananda Maharaja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God.
Prabhupada: Then? What kind of love it is?
Kuladri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary.
Prabhupada: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadati pratigrhnati bhunkte bhojayate caiva sad-vidham priti-laksanam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadati pratigrhnati. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadati pratigrhnati guhyam akhyati prcchati, and bhunkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love... The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God. There cannot be any other alternative. You must know the person who is God. Then you exchange. That we are teaching. We are asking our disciples to rise early in the morning, offer mangala arati, then bhoga arati. Are we so fools, rascals, that we are wasting time in worshiping a doll like that? Sometimes they think like that. But that is not the fact. You know definitely, "Here is Krsna. He is God, and we must love Him like this." That is the superexcellence of Krsna consciousness movement. We do everything definitely on positive platform. Is that clear? Huh? Or anyone, any question?
Pradyumna: Then... You said we must know God before we can love Him. So that means devotional service is preceded by knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad-gita. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Krsna, You are param brahma, param dhama [Bg. 10.12]," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Krsna proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible. So this is the science how to know God, Bhagavad-gita. The preliminary. If you want to know more, then read Bhagavatam. And if you are in intense love with God, then next, Caitanya-caritamrta, how the intensification can be more intensified. That is Caitanya-caritamrta. So Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary book to understand God and surrender. And from the surrendering point, further progress, that is Srimad-Bhagavatam. And when the love is intense, to make it more intensified, that is Caitanya-caritamrta. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, mad after God. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. "I find everything vacant without Krsna." That is the supreme ecstasy. So these things cannot happen (chuckles) without love. If you love somebody, then if he's not there you find everything vacant. Otherwise why? There are so many things. "How," people will say, "you are seeing vacant? Everything is filled up." That is another stage, transcendental platform. Lover and beloved, they can understand. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. That is the supreme stage of love. Is that clear or not?
Pradyumna: There's just one more thing. What's the minimum knowledge one must have to...
Prabhupada: God is great. That's all. God is great. Krsna proved that He's great. Therefore He's God. Everyone says, "God is great." Allah akbar, Muslims say. God is great. It is translated, "God is great." And Hindu says, param brahma. So God is great. So Krsna proved that He is all-great. Therefore He is God. Krsna, when He was present, He proved it that He is the great. Therefore He's God. If you accept God is great, and if you find somebody, he is great in everything, then he's God. How can I deny it? At least, you can see Krsna great by His Bhagavad-gita. It is still going on. Five thousand years passed, still Bhagavad-gita is accepted as the greatest book of knowledge all over the world. Even among the Christians, among the Muslims, those who are really learned, they take it, "Yes." That is greatness of Krsna, the knowledge. Who can give such knowledge? That is the proof that He is God. Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah... Jnana, knowledge. Where is such knowledge throughout the whole world? Everything, every line is sublime knowledge. If one studies scrutinizingly Bhagavad-gita, you find Krsna is Supreme Lord.
Pusta Krsna: Next question, Srila Prabhupada. Question nineteen. "Do you envisage or envision a different role for Hinduism in the Western countries where the influence of other great religions has been felt for centuries?
Prabhupada: No. There is no different role. God is one. God cannot be duplicate. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." That is God. Now people is to understand that Krsna is God. There is no different role. The role is the same. Five thousand years Krsna said that "I am the supreme authority. There is no more superior authority than Me." Still He is so. So we are simply attempting to introduce Krsna. Nobody attempted. Although five thousand years past, nobody attempted to introduce the supreme authority Krsna. We are just trying to introduce following the orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He, five hundred years appeared. He is Krsna. He wanted that this Krsna consciousness should be spread all over the world.
prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama
sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama
Krsna is not for India. He is for everyone because He is God. He claims that "I am the seed-giving father for all living entities." Not only the human society, but also other living entities like the aquatics, the insects, the plants, and the animals, all living entities. He says, aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Everything is there, but this cult of Krsna consciousness, or Bhagavad-gita as it is, was not preached properly. Everyone interpreted Bhagavad-gita in his own way to satisfy his own whims. We are just trying for the first time to present Bhagavad-gita as it is, and it is being effective. So it is not a different role. It is the actual role. Nobody tried for it. Therefore Krsna was unknown, but we are trying for this for the few years. But because it is reality, it is being accepted. It is being accepted. No attempt was made that. So it is not a new role. The role is already there: to preach. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's vision. He says especially to Indian people,
bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
 [Cc. Adi 9.41]
Indians are meant to do this business for para-upakara because all over the world they are unaware of Krsna. So anyone who is actually Indian, he should attempt to broadcast the message of Bhagavad-gita and Krsna. That is order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
 [Cc. Adi 9.41]
This is paropakara. They are suffering without any knowledge of Krsna. Give them this knowledge. That is para-upakara, doing welfare activities to others. So that attempt is now being made, and people actually accepting. So it not a new role. The role is already there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu five hundred years told, years before He told it. But the so many swamis and yogis, they came here, they never introduced Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now it is being done and people are accepting, naturally. This is Krsna consciousness movement. So if everyone joins, either Indian, non-Indian, in this movement there will be one religion and there will be peace. Peace will prevail. This is the only way.
bhoktaram yajna-tapasam
sarva-loka-mahesvaram
suhrdam sarva-bhutanam
jnatva mam santim rcchati
 [Bg. 5.29]
This is the way of santi, understand Krsna, that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend for everyone. Accept Krsna as your friend, you'll be happy. This is the message of Krsna consciousness.
Pusta Krsna: This next question is very closely related to the last question. Question twenty. "What is your view regarding proselytization or preaching? If you are..."
Prabhupada: It is not proselytization. Proselytization has no meaning. To bring one to the real understanding. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. All living entities are His part and parcel. He claims, sarva-yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. In all forms of life, as many living entities are there, aham bija-pradah, I am the seed-giving father. So the natural position is that every living entity, not only human being, but also animals, plants, everyone... So why not Indian, American, or Czechoslavakian, everyone is part and parcel of Krsna? So it not the process of proselytizing to convince the idea. It is actually bringing them to their real position, that they're all part and parcel of Krsna. It is not artificial proselytization that "You are Christian, now you are Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." "You are a sweeper, now you are harijana." It is not like that. It is actually bringing him to his own position, part and parcel of God. It is not... Proselytization will not stand. When one comes to the real understanding of his position, then that will continue. This Krsna consciousness movement is that. Bringing one to the original position. He's in diseased condition, he's thinking otherwise than servant of Krsna. Now this movement is trying to bring everyone to the position that he is eternal servant of Krsna. It is not a rubberstamp proselytization that "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." Or "You are Christian, now are Hindu." So if he does not know what is his position by simply stamping that he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, what benefit he will derive?
Pusta Krsna: The same ignorance.
Prabhupada: If you keep him in the ignorant platform, then what is the benefit of making a Hindu Muslim or Muslim Hindu? That was going on, "holy war," between Christians and the Muslims. Because both of them will die. (chuckles) And they are engaged in holy war. War, but "holy war." "Holy impiety." Artificial change of "ism" will not help. One must know the philosophy of life. One must know what is God. One must learn how to love God. That is real life.
Pusta Krsna: There is one more question, Srila Prabhupada. Question 21. "Are changes visible in Hinduism in its doctrinal content, mode of individual and collective worship as a result of Hinduism's contact with the West?"
Prabhupada: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Krsna consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaisnavism. Vaisnava means Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Visnu or loves God, he is Vaisnava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajanti anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshiper of demigods, they are lusty. Kamuka. And the kamuka platform is material world, lusty. Everyone is trying to enjoy sense gratification. So demigod worship is for sense gratification. If you worship Durga, then you pray, "Mother Durga, give me name, fame, wealth, good wife, and so on, so on." Dhanam dehi rupam dehi rupavati-bharyam dehi. Simply demanding for sense gratification. So that is not love of Godhead. That is to select one agent of God and exact from him as much as you can for your sense gratification. That is not recommended in the Vedic religion. Vedic religion, although there are demigods, but the ultimate is om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah. Those who are suraya, actually advanced, they see to the Visnu paramam padam. Visnor aradhanam param. The worship of Visnu is the supreme worship. So actually everyone should be worshiper of Visnu. And that is Vaisnavism. So Vaisnavism means for everyone or sanatana dharma. That I have already explained. The human.... The living entity is sanatana. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. He is sanatana. God is sanatana. The exchange between God and the living entity is called sanatana-dharma or Vaisnavism. So we are teaching that. We are not teaching Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. There is no question of proselytization. It is the natural. We are, by nature we are lover of God. Just like father and son. The love is already there. It cannot be extinguished. The father and son may be separated for many, many years, but when they come together the affection immediately revives. So we are teaching that, that we have got eternal relationship with God and revive it. We are embarassed by establishing artificial relationship with my family, country, and society, and so-called religions. These are all artificial. Real relationship, that "God is great and I am His servant," that is real religion. So we are teaching that thing.
Pusta Krsna: So the teaching is the same in India as it is in the Western countries.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is being proved. Otherwise how they are worshiping Krsna all over the world?
Pusta Krsna: This question here is "In doctrinal content and mode of individual and collective worship..." Is that to say that in your preaching in the Western countries and your preaching in India, you haven't attempted... In the Western countries where there is so many mlecchas, outcastes, so to speak.
Prabhupada: That is accepted by Krsna. Even one is mleccha. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. So there is no question. That is artificial. One is mleccha or one is brahmana, but that is artificial. That is skin. But within the skin of the mleccha or the brahmana the same spirit soul is there. Therefore those who are pandita, those who are learned,
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
 [Bg. 5.18]
One who is actually learned, he sees the same spirit soul within the brahmana, within the mleccha, within the cat. (end)

 

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