Go to the Real Guru

June 28, 1976 download  Players   Take a test You must inquire about the Absolute Truth. In the next verse it is explained, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam [SB 1.2.11]. Tattva. Tattva means truth. The truth is explained by the tattva-vit, one who knows the truth. How? Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. He is explained as Brahman, as Paramatma, or as Bhagavan. This is Vedanta-sutra. Now one should learn what is Bhagavan, what is Brahman, what is Paramatma. In this way one should make advancement of his spiritual consciousness. That is the purpose of Vedanta-sutra.Pusta Krsna: Can I ask another question, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Hm. Yes. The Vedantists they have come from the impersonal explanation of Sankaracarya. Sariraka-bhasya. But they simply give stress on the Sariraka-bhasya, but there are other bhasyas. Bhasyas means commentary. And the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the natural commentary by the author himself. Besides that, there are Vedanta-bhasyas written by the Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, and all the Vaisnava acaryas. Unfortunately, they do not care to read all these Vedanta-bhasyas. They simply take Sariraka-bhasya and become impersonalist and call themselves as Vedantist. Pusta Krsna: What is the reason for that? Prabhupada: Reason means people do not know. They cheat. Suppose I present something, a misconception, and if there are others also who can speak something on the... There are two lawyers. One is speaking one point of law, another lawyer is speaking. So if you take one side only, then how you will understand? So they are simply reading this Sariraka-bhasya. They are not reading other bhasyas, just like the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is natural. And they are cheating people. That's all. Why there are two lawyers? Two opposite parties, there are two lawyers. One lawyer says this law is like this, and the other party says, "No, it is this." And the judge is there, he will take what is the real meaning. But this interpretation is required when things are not clear. Now the Vedanta-sutra says, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything comes in, emanates." Now, here is... In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna said that aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Clearly. That "I am the origin of everything, and everything comes from Me." So why don't you take it? Why simply you remain theoretically understood that Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates. But when the Absolute Truth comes before you and says that "I am the origin of everything. Everything comes from Me." Why don't you accept Krsna as Absolute Truth? Why do you take the so-called impersonalist view only, that God has no form? Here is God speaking, person. Why don't you take it? If you want to be cheated, then who can stop you? Here Krsna says, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto [Bg. 15.15]. Find out this verse. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca... Hari-sauri: Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo... Prabhupada: Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham. Read it? Hari-sauri: sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham  [Bg. 15.15] Prabhupada: Vedanta-krd, I am the compiler of Vedanta. Why these rascals do not take who compiled Vedanta? Vyasadeva is the incarnation of God. He compiled Vedanta. Why he does not take the original Vedantist. Here it is clearly stated, vedanta-krd. Read the purport. Hari-sauri: "Translation: I am seated in everyone's heart and from Me comes remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas am I to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta and I am the knower of the Vedas." Prabhupada: So they do not go to the compiler of Vedanta. They go to a rascal. How they will understand Vedanta? Suppose I have written this book. If you cannot understand something, if you come directly to me, that is real. Why do you go to a rascal who has nothing to do with this book? If some rascal claims that "I am Vedanti," so your description should... Why shall I not go to the real compiler of Vedanta. Why shall I go to a rascal? That means they are rascals. They are being cheated. Let them take to Bhagavad-gita and let them take to Srimad-Bhagavatam. They will understand Vedanta. They're real Vedantist. But these rascals, they're avoiding Bhagavad-gita and avoiding Srimad-Bhagavatam and claiming themselves as Vedantist. So if you go to a cheater you'll be cheated. That is your business. Read the purport. Hari-sauri: "The Supreme Lord is situated as Paramatma in everyone's heart and it is from Him that all activities are initiated. The living entity forgets everything of his past life, but he has to act according to the direction of the Supreme Lord, who is witness to all his work. Therefore he begins his work according to his past deeds. Required knowledge is supplied to him and remembrance is given to him and he forgets also about his past life. Thus the Lord is not only all-pervading, He is also localized in every individual heart. He awards the different fruitive results. He is not only worshipable as the impersonal Brahman, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the localized Paramatma, but as the form of the incarnation of the Vedas as well. The Vedas give the right direction to the people so that they can properly mold their lives and come back to Godhead, back to home. The Vedas offer knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, and Krsna in His incarnation as Vyasadeva is the compiler of the Vedanta-sutra. The commentation of the Vedanta-sutra by Vyasadeva in the Srimad-Bhagavatam gives the real understanding of the Vedanta-sutra. The Supreme Lord is so full that for the deliverance of the conditioned soul, He is the supplier and the digester of foodstuff, the witness of his activity, the giver of knowledge in the form of Vedas, and as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, the teacher of the Bhagavad-gita, He is worshipable by the conditioned soul. Thus God is all good, God is all-merciful. Anantah pravistah sasta jananam. The living entity forgets as soon as he quits his present body, but he begins his work again initiated by the Supreme Lord. Although he forgets, the Lord gives him the intelligence to renew his work where he ended his last life. So not only does a living entity enjoy or suffer in this world according to the dictation from the Supreme Lord situated locally in the heart, but he receives the opportunity to understand Vedas from Him. If one is serious to understand the Vedic knowledge, then Krsna gives the required intelligence. Why does he present the Vedic knowledge for understanding? Because a living entity individually needs to understand Krsna. Vedic literature confirms this. Yo'sau sarvair vedair giyate. In all Vedic literature, beginning from the four Vedas, Vedanta-sutra and the Upanisads and Puranas, the glories of the Supreme Lord are celebrated. By performing Vedic rituals, discussing the Vedic philosophy and worshiping the Lord in devotional service, He is attained. Therefore the purpose of the Vedas is to understand Krsna. The Vedas give us direction to understand Krsna and the process of understanding. The ultimate goal is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Vedanta-sutra confirms this in the following words: tat tu samanvayat. One can attain perfection by understanding Vedic literature, and one can understand his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by performing the different processes. Thus one can approach Him and at the end attain the supreme goal, who is no other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this verse, however, the purpose of the Vedas, the understanding of the Vedas, and the goal of the Vedas are clearly defined." Prabhupada: He clearly says, vedanta-krd. "I am the compiler of..." So why one should go to learn Vedanta from others? Pusta Krsna: How does bhakti tie into the Vedantic, the conclusion of Vedantic knowledge or wisdom? He says here that bhakti is the most suitable and easiest path of God realization. This is proclaimed, but the Vedantic teachings... He says in the Vedantic teaching the stress is on jnana. Is that a fact? Prabhupada: Jnana, what is jnana? Jnana means... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So unless one surrenders to Krsna, there is no jnana. This is all nonsense. And they're passing as jnana. There is no knowledge at all. Vedanta means the ultimate knowledge. So ultimate knowledge, the subject matter of ultimate knowledge is Krsna, God. So if one does not know who is God, who is Krsna, then where is knowledge? This is fact, the knowledge, but if a rascal claims that "I am man of knowledge," then what can be done? Knowledge is explained, that when one understands that Krsna is everything.... Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. When one understands that Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything, then that is knowledge. Before that, there is no knowledge. It is simply misunderstanding. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. One may begin with impersonal Brahman by the speculative method or one can realize the, what is called, Paramatma, localized aspect. That is the secondary stage. The final stage is understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. That is the final knowledge. But if you do not understand Krsna, then where is your knowledge? Knowledge, half-way knowledge is not knowledge. Complete knowledge. That complete knowledge is possible, as it is said in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. Those who are striving to acquire knowledge, such persons, after many, many births, when actually by the grace of God and by the grace of a devotee comes to the knowledge, then he agrees, "Oh, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], everything is Krsna." Sa mahatma, that mahatma, great soul is very rare to be found. Sudurlabhah. Durlabhah means very rare to be seen but the word is used sudurlabhah, very, very rare. So you cannot find such a mahatma who understands clearly Krsna. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye, yatatam api siddhanam kascin... [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means liberated. So one may become liberated even that.... but from that liberated position again he falls down unless he understands the Supreme Person, Krsna. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah [SB 10.2.32]. Unless he comes to the final understanding of the Absolute Truth, Krsna, he'll fall down. Therefore so many Vedantists, they first of all, they give up this world brahma satyam jagan mithya, this world is false. But again they come down and they become busy in doing some philanthropic work, opening hospitals.... Why? If the world is false, why you are coming down again on this platform? That means they could not get any substance by their so-called renouncement of this world. Aruhya krcchrena, for going to that platform of siddhi, liberation, they had to undergo so much difficulties and austerities but still, even going there.... Just like these people are going to the moon planet and.... Actually whether they have gone or not, that is a doubtful thing, but the thing is, why they are coming down again? That is our challenge. If you have gone to the moon planet then colonise there. But why you have come down again and do not talk anything about. What do you think? Brahmatirtha: Well I couldn't say. They've been there they say. Prabhupada: They say, you believe, but we are common man, lay man, we say that if you have gone there, why you do not live there? Brahmatirtha: Yes, they just bring back rocks to show us, we have rocks here. Prabhupada: If there is rock, if there is sand, then why don't you colonise there? What is their answer? If there is same sand, same rock there, then why not... [break] ...some money and can bring some sand and bluff people that you have gone to moon planet. And people are satisfied, they're paying for another excursion to the Mars. This is going on. If you have gone there, there is land. If you fly in the sky and if you get a land then you can stay there. And because you cannot stay there, you come back again. So their... The Mayavadis position is there, aruhya krcchrena param, they merge into the impersonal Brahman but there is no place to stay, they come down again to this material world. You may go many thousands and millions of miles in the sky but you want to stay somewhere. But if you cannot get any place to stay then again you come to this Moscow and New York. So our enquiry is that if you have gone there, then why don't you stay there? What is the answer? Hm? Kirtanananda Maharaj? Kirtanananda: They say the atmosphere is not suitable. Prabhupada: Then why rascal, you go there? (laughter) And spend so much money, rascal? You could not understand the atmosphere is not good for us, go there and spend so much money? Brahmatirtha: They impress the people. Prabhupada: That means they are bluffer and they bluffing the all fools and rascals. That's all. He could not understand before going there, before spending so much money the atmosphere is not good? Hari-sauri: But without personal, direct experience they... Prabhupada: For your direct whims you have to spend so much money? The people are so befooled they do not challenge them. Yes. Everyone knows, suppose one is coming to the western country, Europe and America, we knew it, that it is cold country, we must take proper dress. And we have come and we are staying. So this is knowledge. So if you do not know what is the atmosphere there, what do you spend so much money? And again you are going to the Mars. Are you fixed up what is the position there? Then you'll again bring something, some dust and rock. (laughter) This business will go on at the expense of the... You can do. You have got money. You can do that. But we are Indians, we are coming from poor country. If you spend so much money for nothing, that is very, not very palatable for us. If one tenth of the expenditure you would have given to us for spreading this Krsna consciousness movement... No. Not a single paisa they will give. And they'll spoil money for going to the moon planet and bring some dust. That's ... Kirtanananda Maharaja is struggling to construct a small residential quarter here, and he has to beg, he has to collect, he has done... Why the government does not pay? "Here so many people are living. Let them live comfortably." But they'll spend this money, millions of dollars, and to bring some dust. Is that very sane government? And people are so fool that they do not challenge the government, "Why you are spending for nothing?" They can do that. They brought back Nixon. Why not stop this unnecessary expenditure? Hm? Kirtanananda Maharaja? Kirtanananda: It makes perfect sense, Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Yes. For nothing. And it is sure certainly you can write down, their Mars going also will be failure. Let it, you take in writing. I may die. I am old man. Take it down. It will be failure. I told ten years before that "It is childish." One press reporter inquired in San Francisco, what is your... "No, this is childish, wasting money." The reporter came to see me in Los Angeles. He remembered that. If you want to spend for nothing like that, you can do that. You have got money. Brahmatirtha: If you say to a politician, "Give Srila Prabhupada money..." Like I said to one man running for governor of this state, I said, "Why can't you help the community in New Vrindaban?" Prabhupada: Oh, you said? Brahmatirtha: He cited to me so many rules and regulations. They're not interested. They're interested in pleasing themselves. A man runs for government, his whole position to run for governor is to please himself so that he can become rich. Prabhupada: That's it. Here, you are right. Sense gratification. Nobody wants to do anything. Nixon captured the presidential post for his own satisfaction. And when the people found that "Here is a trick," they agitated and got him down. So this is the difficulty, that andha yathandhair upaniyamanas the 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah [SB 7.5.31]. We are blind and we are being guided by blind men. So the result is catastrophe. Pusta Krsna: Can I ask another question, Srila Prabhupada? Question number nine. Is a guru essential to one to enter the spiritual path and attain the goal, and how does one recognize one's guru? Prabhupada: Yes. That is explained, that guru is necessary. In the Bhagavad-gita when Krsna and Arjuna were talking as friend, there was no conclusion. The talking was going on but no conclusion was made. Therefore Arjuna decided to accept Krsna as his guru. Find out this verse. Karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah. Hari-sauri: karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam  [Bg. 2.7] "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking you to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am your disciple and a soul surrendered unto you. Please instruct me." Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore guru is necessary. Everyone is perplexed. Nobody can decide himself. Even a physician, a medical man, when he is sick, he does not make his own treatment. He calls for another physician because he is sick, his brain is not in order. How he can prescribe the real medicine for himself? That is natural. So similarly, when we are perplexed, bewildered, we cannot make any solution, at that time the right person, guru, is required. It is essential. You cannot avoid it. So in our present existence we are all perplexed. Arjuna is representating the perplexed position of the materialistic person. And we are actually all perplexed. So under the circumstances, to give us real direction a guru is required. Now, here is the example that Arjuna decided Krsna as guru. He did not go to anyone else to accept as guru. The explanation is there. Find out. Na hi prapasyami. "Without you I don't find anybody..." Hari-sauri: Na hi prapasyami mamapanudyad yac chokam ucchosanam indriyanam, avapya bhumav asapatnam rddham rajyam suranam api cadhipatyam [Bg. 2.8]. "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth..." Prabhupada: No. There is another verse that "Without You I do not find anyone else who can give me real..." Hari-sauri: You know that one? Pusta Krsna: No. Devotee: The doubt when... The fallen yogi. "Who else can...? I think so. Hari-sauri: I'll look it up in the... Prabhupada: In the, is the,... There is... What are you finding? Hari-sauri: I'll look it up in the Sanskrit index. Prabhupada: What is the sloka? The sloka I do not remember exactly, but there is continuation. You read the whole thing. What is that chapter? Hari-sauri: This is Chapter Two. Prabhupada: Begin it. Hari-sauri: Start at the beginning of the chapter? Prabhupada: Um, hm. Hari-sauri: "Seeing Arjuna full of compassion and very sorrowful, his eyes brimming with tears, Madhusudana, Krsna, spoke the following words." Prabhupada: One translation of every verse, go on, read. Hari-sauri: "The Supreme Person Bhagavan said: My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy. O son of Prtha, do not yield to this degrading impotence. It does not become you. Give up such petty weakness of heart and arise, O chastiser of the enemy. Arjuna said: O killer of Madhu, Krsna, how can I counteract with arrows in battle men like Bhisma and Drona who are worthy of my worship? It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, our spoils will be tainted with blood. Nor do we know which is better, conquering them or being conquered by them. The sons of Dhrtarastra, whom if we killed we should not care to live, are now standing before us on this battlefield. Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivalled kingdom on the earth with sovereignty like that of the demigods in heaven. Sanjaya said: Having thus spoken, Arjuna the chastiser of the enemies told Krsna, Govinda, I shall not fight, and fell silent. O descendant of Bharata, at that time, Krsna, smiling in the midst of both the armies spoke the following words to the griefstricken Arjuna." Prabhupada: So he has said already that "I do not find any other means to pacify me, and You are the only..." The purport is that Arjuna is accepting Krsna as guru to instruct him how to get relief from the perplexed position. So in this sense the real guru is Krsna. Krsna is guru. Not only for Arjuna, for everyone. So if we take instruction from Krsna and abide by that order, instruction, then our life is successful. That is our mission. Krsna consciousness movement means accept Krsna as guru. We don't say... Don't divert your attention. We don't say that "I am Krsna." We never say that. We simply ask people that "You abide by the order of Krsna." Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], and we say that "You surrender to Krsna. Give up all other ideas of so-called dharma or religiosity." The same thing. But we don't say that you or me, "I am the authority." No, we don't say that. We say, "Krsna is the authority, and you try to understand Krsna." This is Krsna consciousness movement. Therefore the question is guru. So here, from the behavior of Arjuna, we see that guru is necessary. Arjuna was talking with Krsna as friend, but Arjuna saw that "This is, there is no good talking like this. We can continue talking.... Because we are equal status. Krsna is my friend. I am also His friend. So He's answering, I am giving something. If this talking will go on, there will be no fruit." Therefore he said, "Now, Krsna, I am becoming Your disciple." Disciple means there is no argument. Whatever the guru will say, you have to accept. That is disciple. That is final. There is no argument. So Arjuna put him into that position that "I cease to talk with You on equal level of friends. Now I accept You as guru." Therefore the guru is necessary, undoubtedly, because every one of us in perplexed position. But who is guru? Guru means Krsna or Krsna's representative. And all others are bogus. If one does not say on the standard of Krsna, then he's not guru. He's a bogus. In that way everyone can become guru. I have got some opinion, I can say. But unless.... Just like a lawyer is he who follows the standard law. If a lawyer says that "I have manufactured my own laws," so who will hear him? And what will be the use of becoming lawyer? No. You have to follow the standard law. Then you are a lawyer. And a big lawyer means who knows the standard laws very well. Similarly, guru is Krsna and guru is necessary. But one must surrender to Krsna or Krsna's representative. Then he will be successful. So so far.... Now, one can say that Krsna is not present. But Krsna is not present, how you can say? Krsna's instruction is there, Bhagavad-gita. How you can say that.... Krsna, absolute, means the Supreme Lord is not different from His words also. The words of Krsna and the Krsna, they are the same. That is Absolute Truth. In the relative world the words "water" and the substance water are different. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," my thirst will not be satisfied. I require the real water. That is relative world. But in the spiritual world.... Just like we are chanting Krsna, Hare Krsna. If Krsna is different from Hare Krsna, then how we are satisfied chanting whole day and night? This is the proof. The ordinary thing, if you chant, "Mr. John, Mr. John," after chanting three times you'll cease. But this Hare Krsna maha-mantra, if you go on chanting 24 hours, you'll never be tired. this is the spiritual Absolute Truth. That is practical. Anyone can perceive. So Krsna's present by His words, by His representative. Why don't you take? You have to take guru. Why do you go to the pseudo guru who will mislead you? Why don't you take to the real guru? That is your mistake. Therefore you are now disappointed. Now you are in doubt whether guru is needed. Yes, guru is needed, but you go to the real guru. That is instruction in the Bhagavad-gita. Just find out this verse. tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti tad-jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah  [Bg. 4.34] Pusta Krsna: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." Prabhupada: So this is guru. What, is that? One who has seen the truth. Pusta Krsna: Yes. Jnaninas tattva-darsinah. Prabhupada: So one who has seen... Just like Arjuna has seen Krsna. That's a fact. He was talking. How that if you take instruction of Arjuna, then you understand. So what is the instruction of Arjuna? Find out in the Tenth Chapter. Pusta Krsna: arjuna uvaca param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusam sasvatam divyam adi-devam ajam vibhum  [Bg. 10.12] ahus tvam rsayah sarve devarsir naradas tatha asito devalo vyasah svayam caiva bravisi me  [Bg. 10.13] "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier." Prabhupada: And that Vedanta-sutra says, athato brahma jijnasah. Now here Arjuna is experienced, "You are the Supreme Brahman." So he has seen the Supreme Brahman. So you make Arjuna guru, Krsna guru. Arjuna is representative of Krsna, friend of Krsna. So why do you go to a bogus guru? You must be cheated. Guru is essential. It is necessary. But take the real guru. But if you go to the bogus guru, you must be disappointed. For your treatment you need to go to a physician. That's all. When you are diseased you cannot say, "No, no, I don't want to..." It is necessary. But go to the real physician. Don't go to a cheater. He has no knowledge in the medical science, and he places himself as "I am physician, MD." Then you'll be cheated. The guru is necessary, that's a fact. But go to the real guru. Who is real guru? Real guru is Krsna or one who has seen Krsna, Arjuna. Take them. Then you'll be benefitted. And if you go to a bogus man who does not know Krsna, who does not know what is Krsna's instruction, then you must be cheated. So the answer is guru is absolute necessary. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic injunction, that one must go. But he must go to the real guru. And who is real guru? Who knows Krsna. Take, for example, Arjuna, how he studied Krsna. And he says, param brahma param dhama [Bg. 10.12]. Read the translation. Pusta Krsna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa, proclaim this of You and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." Prabhupada: Arjuna is rectifying this because people may say, "Arjuna was Krsna's friend, he is accepting Him as guru." No, Arjuna says, "Not only I, but other authorities, they also accept." So it is..., everything is clear, that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and He should be accepted as guru or His representative should be accepted guru. Then it will be... So our, this Krsna consciousness movement is that we are presenting Krsna as the supreme guru. You take instruction from Him and be benefited. But one who is carrying this message, he is also authorized. Just like one money order, it is coming through the post office, but an ordinary peon is handing over the money. But he is representative of post office. Actually, the money order is being delivered by the post office, general post office. But it is coming through an ordinary peon. But because he is authorized to deliver you, he is also post office. He's as good as the post office. Just you have got a letter box, a small box, but if you put your letter there, your letter will surely go ten thousand miles away. Therefore, although it is a small box, you don't think it is small box. It is whole post office. Similarly, anyone who is carrying the message of Krsna, don't think that he's ordinary man. If you imitate one box like that post box and put your letter, for thousand years it will lie down there. Because it is not authorized. So if somebody says this small box, red box, is as good as the post office, one may say, "Huh, this is small box. How it can be as good as the post office?" But you see. You post your letter, it will go. Therefore, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. Guru is directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why? Because he is presenting the words of Supreme Personality of Godhead without any deterioration. Therefore he is so honored. So therefore the conclusion is guru is necessary and guru is he who is representative of Krsna. Otherwise he's bogus. Pusta Krsna: What about the so-called gurus that take a little bit here and a little bit there? Prabhupada: So-called gurus, they are so-called gurus. They are not gurus. That is already explained. If one does not speak what Krsna speaks, he is not guru. If you accept so-called guru, that is your misfortune. What can be done? Pusta Krsna: Some of them will say some things that Krsna says, but they'll take from other places also. What is the position of such persons? Prabhupada: He's most dangerous. He's most dangerous. He is opportunist. He's finding out customer, something here... According to the customer he is giving something, as the customers will be pleased. So he is not guru. He's a servant. He wants to serve the so-called disciples so that he may be satisfied and pay him something. He's servant. He's not guru. Guru is the master. You cannot disobey guru. But if you become a servant, you want to please the disciple by flattering him to get his money, then you are not guru, you are servant. Just like a servant pleases the master. He's not guru. He's servant. So our position should be servant, yes, but servant of the Supreme. So guru means heavy. You cannot utilize him for satisfying your whims. That is not guru. (pause) Now? What other question? Pusta Krsna: It's about eight o'clock, Srila Prabhupada. Should we go on? Prabhupada: No. Tomorrow. (devotees offer obeisances -- break) Pusta Krsna: So we're continuing with this questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal in Bombay. This is question number ten. Question number ten, Srila Prabhupada, is "Will mantras lose their sanctity if they are not in Sanskrit?" Prabhupada: Hm? Pusta Krsna: Will mantras lose their sanctity or holiness if they are not in the Sanskrit language? Prabhupada: Mantra in Sanskrit language, it may... The letters may be different, but it is a transcendental sound. The sound must be vibrated. You cannot translate it. The sound as it is... Just like Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the sound must be produced. You cannot translate. Then it will be artha, arthavad. That is prohibited. You cannot interpret or do other way... The sound vibration must be there. Then it will continue in sanctity. Pusta Krsna: Is that to say the mantras can be written in Devanagari script or in Roman letters, but... Prabhupada: It doesn't matter. Pusta Krsna: But the sound must be the same. Prabhupada: Yes. The sound is important. Pusta Krsna: So the sanctity is in the sound vibration and not so much that it's in the Sanskrit letters itself. May I ask another question, Srila Prabhupada? "Are fasting and other dietary regulations necessary for leading a spiritual life?" Prabhupada: Certainly. tapasa brahmacaryena samena damena va tyagena sattva-saucabhyam yamena niyamena va  [SB 6.1.13] To advance in spiritual life these things are essential, tapasya. Tapasya means voluntarily accepting something which may be painful. Just like we are recommending no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating. So those who are accustomed to these bad habits, for them, in he beginning it may be a little difficult. But in spite of becoming difficult, one has to do it. That is called tapasya. To rise early in the morning, those who are not practiced, it is a little painful, but one has to do it. So this is called tapasya. So according to the Vedic injunction, there are some tapasyas that must be done. It is not, "I may do it or not do it." It must be done. Just like in the Mundaka Upanisad it is ordered that one must go to the spiritual master. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. So there is no question of voluntarily, but it must be. And one must carry out by the order of a spiritual master and the order of the sastra. That is called tapasya. Just like in our line ekadasi is compulsory. One may feel some inconvenience fasting or simply eating fruits. No. It must be done. There are so many rules and regulations which is essential. It must be done. That is called tapasya. Without consideration whether it is convenient or inconvenient for you, which is, must be done, that is called tapasya. Tapah, divyam... Just like Rsabhadeva orders that this human life is meant for tapasya. Therefore in our Vedic civilization we find so many rules and regulations. This is tapasya. From the very beginning of life, brahmacari, to go to the spiritual master's place and act like menial servant. Nicavat. It is said. If the spiritual master says that "You go and pick up some wood from the forest," and one may be a king's son, but he cannot deny it, the spiritual master's order, "You must go." As Krsna, He was ordered to go and pick up some dry wood from the forest. So He had to go. Although He was, His father was Nanda Maharaja, a village vaisya king, and Krsna was Personality of Godhead, but He could not deny. He had to go. Nicavat. Just like menial servant. That is called brahmacari. This is tapasya. So tapasya is so essential that one has to do it. There is no question of alternative. Then brahmacari, then.... If he marries, then grhastha. That is also tapasya. He cannot have sex life whenever he likes. No. The sastra says, "You must have sex life like this: once in a month and only for begetting children." So that is also tapasya. They do not follow, people do not follow any tapasya at the present moment. But human life is meant for tapasya, regulative principles. Even in ordinary life.... Just like you are driving your car, you are going to some urgent business, and you saw the red light. You have to stop. You cannot say, "I have to leave by this time. I must go." No. You must. That is tapasya. So tapasya means to follow the regulative principles strictly by the higher order and that is human life. And animal life means you can do whatever you like. They keep to the right, keep to the left, it doesn't matter. But their offense is not taken because they are animals. But a human being, if he does not follow the regulative principles, it is sinful. He'll be punished. The same principle. Just like when there is red light, if you do not stop, you'll be punished. But a cat and dog, if he transgresses, "Never mind red light, I shall go," he's not punished. So tapasya is meant for the human being. He must do it if he wants at all progress of life. That is essential. Pusta Krsna: In terms of diet, dietary regulations, eating... Prabhupada: That is also tapasya. That is also tapasya. Just like we are prohibiting meat-eating. So in your country this is little troublesome. From the very beginning of his life he is, I mean to say, habituated to eat meat. The mother purchases powdered meat and mix with... I have seen it. And by force. So he has been trained up eating meat, and I say, "Don't eat meat." So therefore that is troublesome. And if he's serious, he must accept the order. That is tapasya. Tapasya means in diet, in practice, in behavior, in dealing, and so on, so on. Everything there is tapasya. That is all described. Mental tapasya, bodily tapasya, and what is called? Word? Just like vaco-vegam, this is tapasya. You cannot talk nonsense. You want to talk something nonsense, but according to... So they don't talk nonsense. Sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvar... If you talk, you must talk about Krsna. That is tapasya. "Sastra has ordered me not to talk loosely anything, only talk of Krsna." So if he does that, that is tapasya. Tapasya in the matter of words. Tapasya in connection with body. Tapasya in connection with mind. Vaco-vegam krodha-vegam. One has become angry and he wants to express it by beating or something doing very..., but tapasya will restrict him. "No, don't do it." "I want to kill you." Tapasya will restrict. Vaco-vegam krodha-vegam manasa-vegam udara-vegam. "I am sexually inclined, but I cannot do it. This is not the time." That is tapasya. I am restricted. In this way, tapasya in every way, bodily, mental, words, practice, dealing. So these have to be learned. That is called tapasya. And that is human life. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. If you want to make progress in spiritual life and you are human life, human being, you must act according to the sastric injunctions. That is called tapasya. Brahma, before creation he had to undergo tapasya. Is it not stated? Yes. So tapasya is essential. You cannot avoid. Yes. Hari-sauri: This is a listing of the three tapasyas in the Gita. Prabhupada: Yes. Read it. Hari-sauri: deva-dvija-guru-prajna- pujanam saucam arjavam brahmacaryam ahimsa ca sariram tapa ucyate "The austerity of the body consists in this: worship of the Supreme Lord, the brahmanas, the spiritual master, and superiors like the father and mother. Cleanliness, simplicity, celibacy, and nonviolence are also austerities of the body." Shall I do the purport? Prabhupada: Words? Hari-sauri: Purport? Prabhupada: No. Tapasya, words, not there? Hari-sauri: Oh. anudvega-karam vakyam satyam priya-hitam ca yat svadhyayabhyasanam caiva van-mayam tapa ucvyate "Austerity of speech consists in speaking truthfully and beneficially and in avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly." Prabhupada: Tapasya. Hari-sauri: manah-prasadah saumyatvam maunam atma-vinigrahah bhava samsuddhir ity etat tapo manasam ucyate "And serenity, simplicity, gravity, self-control and purity of thought are the austerities of the mind." sraddhaya paraya taptam tapas tat tri-vidham naraih aphalakanksibhir yuktaih sattvikam paricaksate "This threefold austerity, practiced by men whose aim is not to benefit themselves materially, but to please the Supreme, is of the nature of goodness." Prabhupada: That's it. The aim is to please the Supreme through the spiritual master. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado **. This is the idea. Now, who is teaching this tapasya? Where is the school, college? Smoke: this is tapasya. And they are smoking before teacher. No offense. What you'll expect from such student? Animal civilization. This is not civilization. No tapasya, no brahmacari. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. And tapasya begins from brahmacari. Tapasa brahmacaryena samena [SB 6.1.13], to control. Brahmacari guru-grhe vasan dantah. How to control senses, that is the beginning of life. Not ABCD learning and maybe your character may be less than an animal's, and you have got a degree of the university. You become a learned man. No. That is not accepted. Even from moral instruction, who is educated? That is described by Canakya Pandit. matrvat para-daresu para-dravyesu lostravat atmavat sarva-bhutesu yah pasyati sa panditah Here is pandita. That is learned man. Panditah sama-darsinah. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi [Bg. 5.18]. He is learned man. Not this degree holder. A degree holder, he has no tapasya, he has no character and his knowledge is called mayayapahrta-jnana. Although he has learned so many things, but maya has taken away his knowledge. He's a rascal. He's animal. This is Vedic civilization. [break] Pusta Krsna: Question number twelve. "What is the role of rituals in religion? Are they to be discouraged as it is being advocated by some reformists or are they to be encouraged? If so, in what form? What is the role of rituals in religion?" Prabhupada: Ritual is a practice based on tapasya. Unless one undergoes the ritualistic ceremony, he remains unclean. But in this age, because it is practically impossible to induce people to take all these ritualistic processes, therefore it is recommended that "Chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra." That is special advantage of this age, that by constant chanting of Hare Krsna maha-mantra he automatically becomes purified. That is recommendation given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The beginning is cleansing the heart, because we are impure on account of dirty things within our heart accumulated life after life in the animalistic way of life. So everything, advancement of spiritual life, culture, tapasya means cleansing the heart. So this process, chanting the maha-mantra, the first installment of benefit is cleansing the heart. Ceto-darpana-marjanam. And when the heart is cleansed, then he becomes eligible for being free from the clutches of maya or the materialistic way of life. When he understands that he is not this body, he's spirit soul, his business is different, and he understands that "I am engaged only in these bodily comforts of life, it is not at all essential because it will change. Today I am in American body, I have got so many duties as American. Tomorrow I may be American dog body. So immediately my duty changes. So that is not my real business. My real business is how to elevate myself as spirit soul to the spiritual world, back to home, back to Godhead." Then he changes his... Ceto... Bhava... Then this materialistic activity is stopped. He is no more interested, that "This is simply waste of time." That is knowledge, that "I am simply acting for the benefit and comfort of the body. This is simply waste of time. I must act spiritually." That is called ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart. He is wrongly working on the basis of bodily concept of life. That illusion is over simply by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. This is the first installment, ceto-darpana-marjanam, and bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Then he is in the process to stop the blazing fire of material existence. Then vidya-vadhu-jivanam anandambudhi-vardhanam. Then the ocean of transcendental bliss increases. Anandambudhi-vardanam sarvatmanam snapanam. Wholesale blissful life. Param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. All glories to the chanting of Krsna sankirtana. Then the other processes... That is described in the Siksastaka. So this is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's gift, that kevalaya bhaktya. All the practices of austerities, penances, and mystic yoga, and so on, so on. There are so many things. Everything will be totally achieved simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Bhakti. kecit kevalaya bhaktya vasudeva-parayanah agham dhunvanti kartsnyena niharam iva bhaskarah  [SB 6.1.15] Just like when there is sunrise, immediately the all-pervading fog disappears. Now this Kali-yuga, by bhakti-yoga, especially by chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one can be fully reformed and come to spiritual platform, and that is success of life. Pusta Krsna: The next question kind of relates a little bit in the same direction. Question thirteen. "There are various samskaras prescribed in the life of a Hindu right from his birth to death." Prabhupada: Yes. Pusta Krsna: "Many of these samskaras are not being observed today. Should they be revived?" Prabhupada: Samskara... The real aim is to bring the rascal to the platform of knowledge. That is called samskara. Janmana jayate sudra. By birth everyone is the same, sudras, means without any knowledge. But the samskara means sudra, rascal, without any knowledge of spiritual life, to gradually bring him to the spiritual platform. That is called samskara. And samskarad bhaved dvijah. That is essential. The human life is the opportunity for understanding what he is and what is the aim of his life. The aim of life is back to home, back to Godhead. We are part and parcel of God. Somehow or other we are in this material existence. So aim is again come to our spiritual life, spiritual existence, where there is no struggle for existence, blissful, happy life. Because actually we want happiness, blissful life. That is not possible in the material world. That is in the spiritual world. That is the aim. So every human being should be given chance. That is real education. That is called samskara. So these samskara, there are dasa-vidha-samskarah... So in this age it is very difficult, but if one chants Hare Krsna maha-mantra without any offense, being trained up by the spiritual master, all the samskaras automatically become done and he comes to his original spiritual position, aham brahmasmi, "I am spirit soul. The Krsna is Param Brahman, and I am Brahman." As Arjuna said, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Krsna is also Brahman, I am also Brahman. But He's Supreme Brahman, I am minute Brahman. So my business is to serve Krsna. That is teachings of Lord Caitanya, jivera 'svarupa' haya (sic:) nitya krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. So if he engages himself in his original spiritual business, to act as the servant of Krsna, then all reformation is done. So that advantage is given in this age: kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param... [SB 12.3.51]. Reformatory process is meant for purifying him so he becomes mukta-sangah. Mukta-sangah means liberated from all this bad association of material existence. And he becomes eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. So this is the special advantage. The question is "Whether they should be revived?" They should be revived to the lowest necessity, but all of them cannot be revived in this age. But people should be induced to take to chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Then all reformation will automatically become manifest and he will come to spiritual platform, brahma-bhutah, the realization of Brahman. Then prasannatma, he'll be happy. There is no lamentation, there is no undesirable hankering. Na socati na kanksati. He sees everyone on the spiritual platform. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. In this way he comes to the platform of devotional service, and then his life becomes successful. Is that question answered or not? Pusta Krsna: Yes. Just one question I have. You said that the samskaras should be revived to the lowest? Prabhupada: The minumum possible way. Just like to make him a brahmana. So to become a brahmana these four things are essential: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling. This must be there. You cannot avoid wholesale. Pusta Krsna: Cannot avoid? Prabhupada: Wholesale. You must avoid at least sinful activities. yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drdha-vratah  [Bg. 7.28] You cannot become a devotee unless you are completely sinless. So to become completely sinless you have to begin with these four prohibitory injunctions, or avoid sinful activities like illicit sex, meat-eating, smoking, intoxication and gambling. Then you'll be gradually completely sinless. One side, to practice things, and another side, to engage yourself in devotional service. To engage oneself devotional service under the order of spiritual master and the sastra means to remain on the transcendental platform. Transcendental platform means there is no sinful activity. It is above. Sinful.... Pious and sinful activities are there so long you are on the material platform. Good and bad. Piety and sinful. But when you are on the transcendental platform, then you are automatically without sin. mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena yah sevate sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate  [Bg. 14.26] Sin, life of vice and life of piety, they are within this material world. But when one is spiritually engaged, he is above the spiritual plane. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. So one side, voluntarily accepting these prohibitory process.... You can keep it open. (the door) Hari-sauri: Tell him to leave the door open. Prabhupada: So the whole thing is that if you chant hare Krsna maha-mantra and give up these sinful activities, automatically you become reformed, come to the spiritual platform, and in this way your life will become successful. Pusta Krsna: Can we go on to the next question, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Hm. Pusta Krsna: Question fourteen. "It is said that the karma-kanda in the Vedas has almost gone out of use, except for a few rites which remain in vogue for marriage, sraddhas, etc. Is it advisable to revive the karma-kanda with its stress on the performance of various yajnas?" Prabhupada: So that is not possible in this... Taking consideration of the time, circumstances, it is not possible. There are different kinds of karma-kandiya-yajna. It is expensive also and there is no expert brahmana to guide how to perform this yajna. So Kali-yuga, it is not possible to perform yajnas. Krte yad dhyayato visnum tretayam yajato makhaih [SB 12.3.52]. In the Treta-yuga yajnas were possible. Dvapare paricaryayam kalau tad dhari-kirtanat, that in this age of Kali-yuga the real yajna is hari-kirtana. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [SB 11.5.32]. Therefore those who are intelligent, having good brain substance, they take to this yajna, sankirtana-yajna. And practically we are experiencing, simply by sankirtana-yajna, even the lowest person in the sinful activities, he is becoming purified. So karma-kanda is, to revive them in this age is not possible. Neither jnana-kanda. That is also not possible. People are so fool and rascal that it is impossible. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said... He has condemned karma-kanda, jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done. Karma-kanda, by performing ritualistic ceremonies of karma-kanda, you can go to the heavenly planet. But what is the benefit there? You can enjoy there materialistic way of life in higher standard. That's all. You can live for a very, very long duration of period. But that does not mean that you become immortal. The demigods, they are called amara. Amara means they have got very long duration of life. Does not mean he is immortal. So by karma-kanda you can elevate yourself to the higher planetary system. Even it is properly done... And now it is not possible to do it properly. And even it is properly done, that is condemned. It is not required. Similarly jnana-kanda. Even it is properly done... You can merge yourself into the Brahman effulgence. But that is also not safe because in the sastra we see that aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32]. Even one merges oneself into the impersonal Brahman, he again falls down. Patanty adhah. We have seen practical, in India many sannyasis, they elevate themselves by jnana-kanda, but because they cannot stay, they again come to the karma-kanda, philanthropy activities and hospitals and schools. That is their fall down. So either in karma-kanda or jnana-kanda you cannot achieve the real purpose of life. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura has said, karma-kanda jnana-kanda sakali visera bandha. Either you accept karma-kanda or jnana-kanda, they're different pots of poison. Amrta boliya jeba khai. If by mistake you take poison, death is inevitable. Similarly, by karma-kanda, jnana-kanda nobody can derive any actual benefit. By upasana-kanda, that is the... The Vedas, Vedic ritualistic ceremony means there are three kandas: karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, and upasana-kanda. So upasana-kanda, there are recommendation of many, worship of many demigods. But the best upasana is Visnupasana. Visnor aradhanam sarvesam. Visnor aradhanam param. Om tad visnum paramam padam. There are different types of upasana recommendation, but the visnor aradhanam, worshiping Lord Visnu, that is the Supreme. That is Supreme. So gradually, there is elevation to karma-kanda, jnana-kanda, upasana-kanda, but in the Kali-yuga all these things are not possible to revive. Best directly give him the best upasana-kanda, Visnupasana, bhakti, everything will be automatically achieved by bhakti-marga. Pusta Krsna: The next question, Srila Prabhupada, fifteen. "Hinduism has been defined as a way of life." Prabhupada: Yes. Actually it is the way. That, I have already described it. It is not a sectarianism like Muslimism, Christianism or "Thisism..." Hinduism also now one of them. Actually, it is a way of life, varnasrama-dharma, how to become elevated to the spiritual platform. So that begins by the varnasrama-dharma, to select persons according to his capacity to different varnas. Some of them selected, trained as brahmanas. Some of them trained as ksatriya, some of them as vaisya, some of them as, remain... Those who cannot take any training, they are sudras. So in the ways (indistinct) there must be social division not by birth, but by education. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. That we have lost. The so-called Hinduism they have lost. And because they did not follow real varnasrama-dharma, therefore India, so many renegades, Muslim became... Once they become Muslim, there was no reformation. But according to Vedic principle, even one is fallen, he can be raised to the highest standard. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. One may... Samskarad bhaved dvija. And Sanatana Gosvami says that yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam As by chemical process the bell metal can be turned into gold by adding with the mercury.... This is a chemical process. If you can add in the bell metal proportionately mercury, then it will turn into gold. Here is the process given in the sastra. If you are able to do it, you can do it, turn gold some of these bell metals. So the example is given that as the bell metal, base metal, can be turned into gold by chemical process, similarly, by diksa-vidhanena, by proper initiation by the bona fide spiritual master, everyone can be turned into dvija, twice-born. Dvijatvam jayate nrnam. Nrnam means all men. It is not there is no discrimination, that only the Hindus, only the Indians, or only the so-called brahmanas can be turned. Everyone can be turned. That is the injunction. So this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to do that, trying everyone to become a bona fide brahmana. Without becoming a brahmana you cannot become Vaisnava. So this reformatory process is recommended in the sastras. What is the question? Pusta Krsna: Hinduism has been defined as a way of life. In... Prabhupada: Yes, this is the way of life, that by reformatory process recommended in the sastras one should be elevated to the position of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisyas, and sudra. Sudra means one who cannot take any reformation. But one who can take up the reformation, he can be situated as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya. This is not by birth, but by education, by training. That is recommended for the all human society. Not for the Hindus or... Otherwise, why Krsna says papa-yoni? Papa-yoni. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudras. They are also taken as papa-yoni. And what to speak of the sudras and candalas? They must be papa-yoni. Only the brahmana, ksatriya, they are taken as highly elevated. But nowadays, kalau sudra-sambhavah. In this age you cannot distinguish who is brahmana, who is ksatriya, who is a vaisya, who is a sudra. It is accepted that everyone is a sudra because there is no reformation. So according to Pancaratriki-vidhi everyone should be given the chance of becoming a Vaisnava, a dvija. And that is recommendation in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, that by the proper initiation process everyone can be brought into the platform of dvija, twice-born, and then he becomes... After initiation, his second birth is there. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. Then he's allowed to read the scripture. Veda-pathad bhaved viprah. He becomes vipra. Then when he really comes to the knowledge of Brahman, his relationship with Brahman, and acts accordingly, then he is brahmana. And when he is perfectly situated in the eternal relationship with God, Visnu, then he becomes a Vaisnava. That is perfection of life. Pusta Krsna: Is this practical in the present context? Prabhupada: Yes. We are doing it. See. If anyone has eyes to see they can see how we are accepting the papa-yoni, so-called papa-yoni to become the topmost Vaisnava, that is possible. Unless it is possible how it is being done all over the world? There is no consideration. The process is so effective that it is being done. They are taking it as a proselytization. But it is not proselytizing. Proselytization is superflous. If one is Hindu you make him a Christian, and you change the name. But what is the use of changing the name if you do not reform him about his character? Simply changing the name from Hindu to Muslim or Muslim to Christian, that does not make him better... Pusta Krsna: This next question is rather interesting. Question sixteen. "Is it not possible for all sections of Hindus, be they Advaitans, Dvaitans, or visistadvaitans, to come together instead of remaining isolated as warring factions?" Prabhupada: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. This is the process of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, to bring all the dvaitas and advaitas in one platform. To understand that he is essentially servant of God. The Advaitas, they are wrongly thinking that he is God himself. That is wrong, or not the proper way of thinking. How you can become God? God is sad-aisvarya-purnam, full with six opulences, all-powerful, all-strenght, all-beauty, all opulent. So this is artificial, to think to become God. And... This is Advaita. And Dvaitas, they think that one is different from God, God is separate from the living entity. But actually, from the Bhagavad-gita we understand that God is always the Supreme and the living entities, they are subordinate. And in the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). Both of them are living entities, but God is the chief. The difference between the two, that God maintains other living entities. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That is a fact. We are maintained and God is the maintainer. We are predominated, we are not independent, and God is predominator. But because the predominated living entities, they are part and parcel of God, therefore in quality they are one. This is acintya-bhedabheda, one and different. The living entity is one in the sense because he is part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, the living entity is also gold. That is one in quality. But god is great and we are minute, small. In that way we are different. Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has enunciated acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable, simultaneously one and different. That is real philosophy. So on this philosophy everyone can come if they are reasonable. If they remain unreasonably stuck up in their own concocted philosophy, then it is difficult. Otherwise this is the fact, that the living entity is eternally part and parcel of God. Sanatana. What is that verse? Find out. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. Fifteenth chapter. Hari-sauri: mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati  [Bg. 15.7] "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." Prabhupada: So if he's eternal fragmental parts, how he can become one with the whole? The part is never equal to the whole. That is axiomatic truth. This is wrong conception, to become like God. The Mayavadis, they are trying to become God. That is impossible. They... Let them remain godly. Godly means servant of God. That will make him perfection, his life perfect. Vaisnava philosophy is to remain, to act as servant of God. That is perfect. And if the servant tries to become like the master, that is artificial. Although in the spiritual world there is no difference between the master and the servant... Just like the boys, Krsna's cowherd boy friends, they do not know Krsna is God. They are playing with Him on equal terms. When Krsna is defeated in the play He has to take His friend on His shoulder and he rides on the shoulder. So there is no such distinction who is God and who is not God. So that is spiritual conception. But the difference is always there. God and the part and parcel. Krta-punya-punjah. We can attain that position after many, many lives' pious activities. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. ittham (satam) brahma-sukhanubhutya dasyam gatanam para-daivatena mayasritanam nara-darakena sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah  [SB 10.12.11] These boys are playing with Krsna. Who is Krsna? He is the essence of Brahma-sukha, Param Brahman. So these boys are playing with Param Brahman. Ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya dasyam gatanam para-daivatena. And for the devotees He's the supreme master, and for the ordinary man He is ordinary child. But these other children who are playing, they have got this position krta-punya-punjah. "After many, many births' pious activities, now I have got this position, playing with Krsna on equal terms." So this is the conception of devotional service, that when you go to the Goloka Vrndavana you cannot distinguish.... But they have got unflinching love for Krsna. That is Vrndavana life. The cows, the calves, the trees, the flowers, the water, the elderly men, Nanda Maharaja and Yasodamayi, everyone is attached, central point is Krsna. Everyone is loving Krsna. And there is no such knowledge that Krsna is the Supreme Personality.... Sometimes they see Krsna's wonderful activities and they talk on: "Krsna may be some demigod. He has come here." But they could never recognize that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Krsna passed some dangerous position, so many demons were coming, mother Yasoda was chanting some mantras to protect Krsna that "He may not be put into some calamity." They never understood that Krsna is the Supreme Personality. But their natural love for Krsna so intense. Therefore Vrndavana life is so exalted. Aradha... What is called? Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanaya tad-dhama vrndavanam. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that first of all Krsna, Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanada Maharaja, He is aradhya. Tad-dhama vrndavanam. And His dhama, His abode, Vrndavana, is also worshipable. They are equal. Vrndavana-dhama and Krsna, they are equal. So these are higher standard of understanding. Unless one is devotee, purified, he cannot understand that to become one with God is not the sublime idea. In Vrndavana one who wants to become the father or mother of God, to control God, that these Mayavadis cannot understand, Advaitavadis. This is to be understood by the pure devotion, devotees. What is the benefit to become equal with God? Just become.... equal.... Other Vaisnava philosophies they could not explain our relationship with God. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained the higher relationship with God. That is called vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Especially madhurya-rasa. Anarpita carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau samarpayitum unnatojvala-rasam sva bhakti sriyam. Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave information of the madhurya-rasa, that our relationship can be with Krsna in conjugal love. So unless one comes to the platform of devotional service, one cannot understand. But for general understanding this philosophy of acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.... That is explained in this verse. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. The living entities are part and parcel of God. So if God is gold, then living entities are also gold. This is equality in quality. But God is great, and we are always subordinate. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. We are protected, we are maintained, we are predominated. That is our position. We cannot attain the position of predominator. That is not possible. Pusta Krsna: The next question, Srila Prabhupada, question 17. "What is the future of Hinduism?" Prabhupada: There is no future. It is already gone. (laughter) The future is already there. And what do you want more future? A man was beaten with shoes, and again he said that "He has threatened me, to insult me." So if he is beaten with shoes, then what insult remains to be done again? So Hinduism now finished. Now take to the process of Krsna's order, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Teach this teaching of Bhagavad-gita to the whole world. Not only Hinduism; Christianism, and Muslimism, everything's gone. And even it is not gone, Krsna says, " Give up all this nonsense." Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. "Give up Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. Simply surrender unto Me." That is to be preached all over the world, and that is being effective. So if the Hindus are interested in Bhagavad-gita, which was spoken in the Hindustan, in the land of Hindus, they must seriously take to this instruction of Krsna and combine together and preach all over the world and make others benefited and themselves benefited. That is the only way. There is no other second way. Pusta Krsna: Next question. Question number 18. "As the world is coming to be divided into just two classes, atheist and theist, is it not advisable for all religions to come together, and what positive steps can be taken in this direction?" Prabhupada: That is already taken, already explained. This Krsna consciousness movement. The atheist class and theist class, they will exist always. This is material world. Even at home the father is atheist, Hiranyakasipu, and the son is theist. So even at home the father and the son different. So that atheist class and theist class men will always exist in family, in community, in nation, in the... as you go on. But the theist class should take to the proposition of the Bhagavad-gita and take shelter at his lotus feet, giving up so-called religious principles. That is oneness. Religion without conception of God, conception of God is humbug, bogus. Religion means to accept the order of God. So if you have no conception of God, if you do not know who is God, so there is no question of accepting His order. It is stated in the Vedic literature dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Find out this verse in the Sixth Canto. [break] ...Yamaraja's instruction. Devotee: Yes. (pause) Hari-sauri: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam na vai vidur rsayo napi devah na siddha-mukhya asura manusyah kuto nu vidyadhara-caranadayah  [SB 6.3.19] "Translation: Real religious principles are enacted by..." Prabhupada: Ha! Real. Hari-sauri: "Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great rsis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyadharas and Caranas." Prabhupada: Hm. [break] Hari-sauri: This is Sixth Canto, Third Chapter, Text Nineteen. When challenged by the Visnudutas to describe the principles of religion, the Yamadutas said, veda-pranihito dharmah: the religious principles are the principles enacted in the Vedic literature. They did not know, however, that the Vedic literature contains ritualistic ceremonies that are not transcendental, but are meant to keep peace and order among materialistic persons in the material world. Real religious principles are nistraigunya, above the three modes of material nature, or transcendental. The Yamadutas did not know these transcendental religious principles, and therefore when prevented from arresting Ajamila they were surprised. Materialistic persons who attach all their faith to the Vedic rituals are described in Bhagavad-gita (2.42), wherein Krsna says, veda-vada-ratah partha nanyad astiti vadinah: the supposed followers of the Vedas say that there is nothing beyond the Vedic ceremonies. Indeed, there is a group of men in India who are very fond of the Vedic rituals, not understanding the meaning of these rituals, which are intended to elevate one gradually to the transcendental platform of knowing Krsna (vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]). Those who do not know this principle but who simply attach their faith to the Vedic rituals are called veda-vada-ratah. Herein it is stated that the real religious principle is that which is given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That principle is stated in Bhagavad-gita. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] one should give up all other duties and surrender unto the lotus feet of Krsna. That is the real religious principle everyone should follow. Even though one follows Vedic scriptures, one may not know this transcendental principle, for it is not known to everyone. To say nothing of human beings, even the demigods in the upper planetary systems are unaware of it. This transcendental religious principle must be understood from the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly or from His special representative, as stated in the next verses. Prabhupada: So, therefore... Next verse. Hari-sauri: svayambhur naradah sambhuh kumarah kapilo manuh prahlado janako bhismo balir vaiyasakir vayam  [SB 6.3.20] Prabhupada: Vaiyasakir vayam. Hari-sauri: Dvadasaite vijanimo... Prabhupada: Dvadasaite. Hari-sauri: Dharmam bhagavatam bhatah, guhyam visuddham durbodham yam jnatvamrtam asnute. "Lord Brahma, Bhagavan Narada, Lord Siva, the four Kumaras, Lord Kapila (the son of Devahuti), Svayambhuva Manu, Prahlada Maharaja, Janaka Maharaja, Grandfather Bhisma, Bali Maharaja, Sukadeva Gosvami and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhagavat-dharma or surrender unto the Supreme Lord..." Prabhupada: So these people, these mahajanas, they know what is the principles of religion. Religion means bhagavata-dharma, to understand God and our relationship with God. That is religion. You may call it Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion, but real religion is that which teaches how to love God. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. If by following the religious system, you come to the platform of loving God, then your religious system is perfect. Otherwise it is a simply waste of time, bogus religion, without conception of God. So unless one understands what is God and what He says, and we have to abide by that order, then we are religious and there is religion and there is God, there is everything complete. Pusta Krsna: This is off the record, but one may ask if someone like Christ or Moses was not mentioned amongst the mahajanas, present some sort of religion... Prabhupada: No, mahajana there is in Christian messiahs. There is mahajana. And later on, after Christ, there was so many other. Saint Matthew, Saint Thomas, like that. Mahajana is mentioned there. How can you say there is no mahajana? Mahajana means who is strictly following the original religion. That is called mahajana. Or who know the things as they are. They are called mahajana. And that means parampara system. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is learning Bhagavad-gita directly from Krsna. He's mahajana. So you learn from Arjuna. And after hearing Bhagavad-gita, as Arjuna acted, as Arjuna understood Krsna, you follow that. Then mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Then you are following the mahajana. You are on the real path. Just like we are. Here it is said, mahajana, Svayambhu. Svayambhu means Brahma, Lord Brahma. So our, this sampradaya, Gaudiya sampradaya, is Brahma-sampradaya. And Svayambhu, Narada. Narada is also in the brahma-sampradaya. And Sambhu, Lord Siva, he is also mahajana. He has got his sampradaya, Rudra-sampradaya. And similarly, Sri-sampradaya. So all these sampradaya we must follow. Sampradaya vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If you do not belong to sampradaya, mahajana, then you are useless. You cannot concoct any religious system. So either you be Christian or Hindu it doesn't matter. You have to follow the mahajana. If a Christian says, "I don't believe in St. Thomas," what kind of Christian he is? Similarly, it doesn't matter who is a maha... But real mahajana is he who is strictly following the principle as enunciated by God. That is religious system. Otherwise there is no religion. There is no question of religion. It is simply concoction. Mano-dharmi, mental speculator. Mental speculation is not religion. Religion is the order of Krsna and one who follows that order, he is religious. That's all. Pusta Krsna: This next question, Srila Prabhupada, question nineteen. Prahupada: Now this question is clear? Pusta Krsna: Yes. So far I can understand, you're saying that there's no need to label that there's one religion in the world. Rather, everyone can... Prabhupada: One religion is there already, that how to love God. This is one religion. Will the Christian say, "No. We don't want to love God"? Will the Christians say? Will the Mohammedans say, "No, no. We don't want to love God"? So religion means how to love God, and any religion which teaches how to love God, that is perfect. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian or Muslim or Hindu. It doesn't matter. You have to be educated to take your degree. It doesn't matter from which college you take degree. Similarly, religion means you have to learn how to love God. If you have no love for God, it is all useless. That is not religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Saksad, Bhagavan Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." You cannot surrender until you love. You are surrendered to me, I am also an Indian. Because you have love for me, therefore there is surrender. If I say that "You die," you'll die. Why? Because you love me. So when there will be surrender? Unless one loves God. Unless that platform is not there, that "I love you, I can sacrifice everything for you." That is on the the basic principle of love. Therefore that religion is perfect which teaches the followers how to love God. This is religious principle. So let everyone come to this platform, how to love God. That is Krsna consciousness. We are teaching nothing, but training them how to love God, how they can sacrifice everything for God. So that is religion. Otherwise a bogus waste of time, simply following the ritualistic ceremonies. That is not religion. That is superfluous. dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah notpadayed yadi ratim srama eva hi kevalam  [SB 1.2.8] You are very good, you are following your religious principle very strictly, adherently. That's all right. But what about your love of God? "Oh, that I do not know." So sastra says, srama eva hi... It is simply waste of time, and simply laboring. That's all. If you have not learned to love God, then what is the meaning of your religion? Then, when you're actually on the platform of love of God, you understand your relationship with God, that "I am part and parcel of God. Not only I am part and parcel of God, this dog is also part and parcel of.... Every living entity." Then you'll extend love for animal also. If you actually love God, then your love for insect also is there because you understand that "This insect, it has got a different body only, but he is also part and parcel, or my brother." Samah sarvesu bhutesu. Then you cannot maintain slaughterhouse. If you maintain slaughterhouse and disobey the order of Christ, thou shall not kill, and you proclaim yourself as Christian or Hindu or this.... That is not religion. Then srama eva hi kevalam. Your going to the temple and church and everything is simply waste of time. Srama eva hi kevalam. Because you do not understand God. You have no love for God. That is going on, all over the world. They're stamping under some sect, but there is no real religion. So in order to bring them all in one platform, they have to accept the principles of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If you do not accept in the beginning Krsna, that He is the supreme, then you try to understand that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is education. There is somebody supreme. So if I say, because I am Hindu, I am Indian, that "Krsna is the supreme," you may say, "Then why Krsna? Krsna is Indian." "No. He is God. Just like the sun rises first in India, then comes to Europe. But that does not mean the sun is different. Similarly, Krsna, although appeared in India, now He has come to Western countries, Krsna consciousness movement. You try to understand whether Krsna is not God or God. But He is God. There is no doubt about it. If you have got intelligence to understand what is God, then try to understand. But He is God undoubtedly. So take to Krsna consciousness and abide by the order of Krsna. Then everyone comes on the same platform, the religious platform, one religion, Krsna consciousness. Pusta Krsna: Question 19, this is... Prabhupada: Now, this is clear or not? Pusta Krsna: Oh yes. Prabhupada: Anyone? We are part and parcel of Krsna, our business is to surrender to Him. And Krsna personally advises that "You surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection." This is religion. Pusta Krsna: Sometimes we meet people in our preaching activities. They may, of course, claim to be very devout Christian or Muslim, but at the same time they will blaspheme Krsna. Is it possible that such persons can actually be associates of God? Prabhupada: No, no. It is just like in our Krsna consciousness movement there are so many Christians, so many Jews, so many Mohammedan, and Hindus. Everyone is there. It is a question of understanding. So in the beginning if... But if he's serious to understand what is God, then he will accept Krsna the Supreme Lord. If he knows what is God, then he'll understand, "Here is God." If he remains in darkness, he does not know what is God, then how he'll understand Krsna? He'll understand Krsna as one of us. That's all. But if he knows what is God then he'll understand. Yes, here is God, Just like if a person knows what is gold, then anywhere gold, he'll understand, "Here is gold." It does not mean only gold, in certain shop only gold is available. But if he knows what is God, what is meaning of God, that he will find in Krsna in fullness. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. The sastra says how He is Bhagavan, what is Bhagavan. You should understand and see from the activities of Krsna whether He is not Bhagavan. It requires brain to understand. I say, "Here is God." Now it is up to you. If you know what is God, then test it, and then you'll accept God. If you do not know how to test it, then you may refuse. That is another thing. You'll accept iron as gold. That is your ignorance. You do not know what is gold. But if you actually know what is gold, you will accept Krsna as God, there is no doubt about it. So this is the only platform, Bhagavad-gita. Everyone come and take to Krsna and understand God and learn how to love Him and your life is perfect. Pusta Krsna: But if the Christians are saying that "This is the only platform, the Bible," and the Muslims are saying, "This is the only platform, Koran," and the community of followers of Bhagavad... Prabhupada: But we have to see by the result. The result is... Only platform, that only platform, that is decided... Sa vai pumsam paro dharmah. That is actually religion. How? Yato bhaktir adhoksaje. If one has learned how to love God. If there is no love of God, then what is the use of claiming that this is the only platform? Where is the sign of love of Godhead? That is to be seen. Simply if you say... Everyone will say, "This, my, this property is the best, or my understanding is..." But there must be practical proof. The practical proof-say how to love God, what is the process of loving God? If you do not know your relationship with God and other's relationship with God, then how you know God? That is lacking. Nobody can give clear conception of God. Can the Christians give? Then where is love of God? If you have no understanding of what is God, where is the question of love? Love is not fictitious. You cannot love air. You love a person, a beautiful person, a beautiful woman. If you say, "I love air. I love the sky..." Where there is question of love?There must be a person. So who is that person we want to love? But they have no personal conception of God, neither they can describe the personal beauty, capacity, strength, sad-aisvarya-purnah. There is no such description. So they have got the conception of God, but actually they do not know what is God. But religion means you must know God and love Him. That is religion. That is first class religion. Is that clear or not? Pusta Krsna: Yes. Prabhupada: When there is question of love, then you must know what is God, then love. But if you do not know who is God, then how do you love Him? Pusta Krsna: Are these actually the tangible signs by which one can judge what is real religion? Prabhupada: Yes. Real religion is how to love God. And love cannot be done without knowing the person whom you love. That is the criterion, test. So if you have no conception, God, His personality, then how you'll love? Where is the question of love? Love is something tangible. It is not fictitious. So we accept, Krsna conscious people, Krsna is God, and we are worshiping Krsna. And we are making progress. Just see our behavior and other persons behavior and judge. Hm? What do you think? Kuladri: We had one priest who came. He was discussing with Kirtanananda Maharaja. He did not know what God looked like, he never gave anything, never talked about God, but he said he loved God. Prabhupada: Then? What kind of love it is? Kuladri: Nor did he say his people ever came to church. He said, "At best they come once a week." He said that's all that is necessary. Prabhupada: Well, love does not mean that you come once in a week at my house. Love means you come to my house, give me some presentation, and take something from me. Dadati pratigrhnati bhunkte bhojayate caiva sad-vidham priti-laksanam. Love means if you love somebody, then you must give him something, you must accept something from him. Dadati pratigrhnati. You must disclose your mind to him and he should disclose his mind to you. Dadati pratigrhnati guhyam akhyati prcchati, and bhunkte bhojayate. If you love somebody, you give him something eatable and whatever eatable he offers you accept. These six kinds of exchange makes love. But if you do not know the person, the boy or the girl, then where is the question of love? Love begins... If you love some girl, if you love some boy, then you give something, some presentation, and he gives you some presentation. That develops love. You give something to eat and whatever he gives you to eat, you eat. You disclose your mind, "My dear such and such, I love you. This is my ambition." He dis... These are the exchange of love. So if there is no persons to person meeting, where is the question of love? That is not love. If I love somebody and weekly I visit that house, "This is the house," that's all. Where is the exchange of love? Love means there is exchange. If you love somebody, if you have not given anything to that somebody, neither you have taken something from him, where is the love? Is that love? Means imperfect knowledge. You love... The conclusion is religion means to love God, and to love God means you must know who is God. There cannot be any other alternative. You must know the person who is God. Then you exchange. That we are teaching. We are asking our disciples to rise early in the morning, offer mangala arati, then bhoga arati. Are we so fools, rascals, that we are wasting time in worshiping a doll like that? Sometimes they think like that. But that is not the fact. You know definitely, "Here is Krsna. He is God, and we must love Him like this." That is the superexcellence of Krsna consciousness movement. We do everything definitely on positive platform. Is that clear? Huh? Or anyone, any question? Pradyumna: Then... You said we must know God before we can love Him. So that means devotional service is preceded by knowledge. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes, that is the process in the Bhagavad-gita. There are 18 chapters. The whole 18 chapters is the education how to know God. And when Arjuna completely in awareness he accepted, "Krsna, You are param brahma, param dhama [Bg. 10.12]," that is understanding. Then surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Unless you know God, how you'll surrender? If some third class man comes, "You surrender unto me." Will you do that? Why shall I surrender to him? You must know, "Now, here is God. I must surrender." The 18th Chapter is described to know God, and then Krsna proposes, "Surrender unto Me." Then Arjuna did it, "Yes." So without knowing, how you can surrender? Know God. Then you surrender. Otherwise how, blindly, you can surrender? That is not possible. So this is the science how to know God, Bhagavad-gita. The preliminary. If you want to know more, then read Bhagavatam. And if you are in intense love with God, then next, Caitanya-caritamrta, how the intensification can be more intensified. That is Caitanya-caritamrta. So Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary book to understand God and surrender. And from the surrendering point, further progress, that is Srimad-Bhagavatam. And when the love is intense, to make it more intensified, that is Caitanya-caritamrta. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, mad after God. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. "I find everything vacant without Krsna." That is the supreme ecstasy. So these things cannot happen (chuckles) without love. If you love somebody, then if he's not there you find everything vacant. Otherwise why? There are so many things. "How," people will say, "you are seeing vacant? Everything is filled up." That is another stage, transcendental platform. Lover and beloved, they can understand. Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. That is the supreme stage of love. Is that clear or not? Pradyumna: There's just one more thing. What's the minimum knowledge one must have to... Prabhupada: God is great. That's all. God is great. Krsna proved that He's great. Therefore He's God. Everyone says, "God is great." Allah akbar, Muslims say. God is great. It is translated, "God is great." And Hindu says, param brahma. So God is great. So Krsna proved that He is all-great. Therefore He is God. Krsna, when He was present, He proved it that He is the great. Therefore He's God. If you accept God is great, and if you find somebody, he is great in everything, then he's God. How can I deny it? At least, you can see Krsna great by His Bhagavad-gita. It is still going on. Five thousand years passed, still Bhagavad-gita is accepted as the greatest book of knowledge all over the world. Even among the Christians, among the Muslims, those who are really learned, they take it, "Yes." That is greatness of Krsna, the knowledge. Who can give such knowledge? That is the proof that He is God. Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah... Jnana, knowledge. Where is such knowledge throughout the whole world? Everything, every line is sublime knowledge. If one studies scrutinizingly Bhagavad-gita, you find Krsna is Supreme Lord. Pusta Krsna: Next question, Srila Prabhupada. Question nineteen. "Do you envisage or envision a different role for Hinduism in the Western countries where the influence of other great religions has been felt for centuries? Prabhupada: No. There is no different role. God is one. God cannot be duplicate. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." That is God. Now people is to understand that Krsna is God. There is no different role. The role is the same. Five thousand years Krsna said that "I am the supreme authority. There is no more superior authority than Me." Still He is so. So we are simply attempting to introduce Krsna. Nobody attempted. Although five thousand years past, nobody attempted to introduce the supreme authority Krsna. We are just trying to introduce following the orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He, five hundred years appeared. He is Krsna. He wanted that this Krsna consciousness should be spread all over the world. prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama Krsna is not for India. He is for everyone because He is God. He claims that "I am the seed-giving father for all living entities." Not only the human society, but also other living entities like the aquatics, the insects, the plants, and the animals, all living entities. He says, aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4]. Everything is there, but this cult of Krsna consciousness, or Bhagavad-gita as it is, was not preached properly. Everyone interpreted Bhagavad-gita in his own way to satisfy his own whims. We are just trying for the first time to present Bhagavad-gita as it is, and it is being effective. So it is not a different role. It is the actual role. Nobody tried for it. Therefore Krsna was unknown, but we are trying for this for the few years. But because it is reality, it is being accepted. It is being accepted. No attempt was made that. So it is not a new role. The role is already there: to preach. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's vision. He says especially to Indian people, bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara  [Cc. Adi 9.41] Indians are meant to do this business for para-upakara because all over the world they are unaware of Krsna. So anyone who is actually Indian, he should attempt to broadcast the message of Bhagavad-gita and Krsna. That is order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. bharata bhumite manusya-janma haila yara janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara  [Cc. Adi 9.41] This is paropakara. They are suffering without any knowledge of Krsna. Give them this knowledge. That is para-upakara, doing welfare activities to others. So that attempt is now being made, and people actually accepting. So it not a new role. The role is already there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu five hundred years told, years before He told it. But the so many swamis and yogis, they came here, they never introduced Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now it is being done and people are accepting, naturally. This is Krsna consciousness movement. So if everyone joins, either Indian, non-Indian, in this movement there will be one religion and there will be peace. Peace will prevail. This is the only way. bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram suhrdam sarva-bhutanam jnatva mam santim rcchati  [Bg. 5.29] This is the way of santi, understand Krsna, that He is the supreme enjoyer, He is the supreme proprietor, and He is the supreme friend for everyone. Accept Krsna as your friend, you'll be happy. This is the message of Krsna consciousness. Pusta Krsna: This next question is very closely related to the last question. Question twenty. "What is your view regarding proselytization or preaching? If you are..." Prabhupada: It is not proselytization. Proselytization has no meaning. To bring one to the real understanding. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. All living entities are His part and parcel. He claims, sarva-yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. In all forms of life, as many living entities are there, aham bija-pradah, I am the seed-giving father. So the natural position is that every living entity, not only human being, but also animals, plants, everyone... So why not Indian, American, or Czechoslavakian, everyone is part and parcel of Krsna? So it not the process of proselytizing to convince the idea. It is actually bringing them to their real position, that they're all part and parcel of Krsna. It is not artificial proselytization that "You are Christian, now you are Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." "You are a sweeper, now you are harijana." It is not like that. It is actually bringing him to his own position, part and parcel of God. It is not... Proselytization will not stand. When one comes to the real understanding of his position, then that will continue. This Krsna consciousness movement is that. Bringing one to the original position. He's in diseased condition, he's thinking otherwise than servant of Krsna. Now this movement is trying to bring everyone to the position that he is eternal servant of Krsna. It is not a rubberstamp proselytization that "You are Hindu, now you are Christian." Or "You are Christian, now are Hindu." So if he does not know what is his position by simply stamping that he is Hindu or Muslim or Christian, what benefit he will derive? Pusta Krsna: The same ignorance. Prabhupada: If you keep him in the ignorant platform, then what is the benefit of making a Hindu Muslim or Muslim Hindu? That was going on, "holy war," between Christians and the Muslims. Because both of them will die. (chuckles) And they are engaged in holy war. War, but "holy war." "Holy impiety." Artificial change of "ism" will not help. One must know the philosophy of life. One must know what is God. One must learn how to love God. That is real life. Pusta Krsna: There is one more question, Srila Prabhupada. Question 21. "Are changes visible in Hinduism in its doctrinal content, mode of individual and collective worship as a result of Hinduism's contact with the West?" Prabhupada: Yes, they are worshiping... This is... First of all, you must forget that this Krsna consciousness movement is not Hinduism. It is Vaisnavism. Vaisnava means Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and one who loves Visnu or loves God, he is Vaisnava. So Hinduism is not like that. Present conception of Hinduism, they have got so many demigods. Demigods are there in the Vedas, but demigod worshipers, they are all materialistic persons. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajanti anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are worshiper of demigods, they are lusty. Kamuka. And the kamuka platform is material world, lusty. Everyone is trying to enjoy sense gratification. So demigod worship is for sense gratification. If you worship Durga, then you pray, "Mother Durga, give me name, fame, wealth, good wife, and so on, so on." Dhanam dehi rupam dehi rupavati-bharyam dehi. Simply demanding for sense gratification. So that is not love of Godhead. That is to select one agent of God and exact from him as much as you can for your sense gratification. That is not recommended in the Vedic religion. Vedic religion, although there are demigods, but the ultimate is om tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah. Those who are suraya, actually advanced, they see to the Visnu paramam padam. Visnor aradhanam param. The worship of Visnu is the supreme worship. So actually everyone should be worshiper of Visnu. And that is Vaisnavism. So Vaisnavism means for everyone or sanatana dharma. That I have already explained. The human.... The living entity is sanatana. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatana [Bg. 15.7]. He is sanatana. God is sanatana. The exchange between God and the living entity is called sanatana-dharma or Vaisnavism. So we are teaching that. We are not teaching Hinduism, Muslimism, Christianism. We are teaching how to love God. That's all. There is no question of proselytization. It is the natural. We are, by nature we are lover of God. Just like father and son. The love is already there. It cannot be extinguished. The father and son may be separated for many, many years, but when they come together the affection immediately revives. So we are teaching that, that we have got eternal relationship with God and revive it. We are embarassed by establishing artificial relationship with my family, country, and society, and so-called religions. These are all artificial. Real relationship, that "God is great and I am His servant," that is real religion. So we are teaching that thing. Pusta Krsna: So the teaching is the same in India as it is in the Western countries. Prabhupada: Yes. That is being proved. Otherwise how they are worshiping Krsna all over the world? Pusta Krsna: This question here is "In doctrinal content and mode of individual and collective worship..." Is that to say that in your preaching in the Western countries and your preaching in India, you haven't attempted... In the Western countries where there is so many mlecchas, outcastes, so to speak. Prabhupada: That is accepted by Krsna. Even one is mleccha. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. So there is no question. That is artificial. One is mleccha or one is brahmana, but that is artificial. That is skin. But within the skin of the mleccha or the brahmana the same spirit soul is there. Therefore those who are pandita, those who are learned, vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmane gavi hastini suni caiva sva-pake ca panditah sama-darsinah  [Bg. 5.18] One who is actually learned, he sees the same spirit soul within the brahmana, within the mleccha, within the cat. (end)   >>> Ref. VedaBase => Answers to a Questionnaire from Bhavan's Journal -- June 28, 1976, Vrndavana HOME

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Innocent, Classless -- No Class

June 29, 1976

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Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. Krsna says -- God says -- catur-varnyam maya srstam: [Bg. 4.13] "For spiritual and material progress, the four occupational divisions of society have been set up by Me." So that is obligatory, just as the state law is obligatory. You cannot say, "I don't accept this law." No. You have to accept it if you want to have a happy life. You cannot become an outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished.Now, God says, maya srstam: "This varnasrama system is given by Me." So how can we refuse to follow it? that means we are denying the real religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [SB 6.3.19] real dharma, real religion, means the order given by God. And God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: [Bg. 4.13] "For the proper management of human society, I have created these four social divisions, based on people's qualities and actions." So you have to accept it.
Pusta Krsna: This would be the prescription for all people?
Srila Prabhupada: For everyone. At the head of the social body there must be the intelligent class of men, who will give advice; then there must be the administrative and protective class, the farming and mercantile class, and the laboring class. This is all given in the Bhagavad-gita: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra.
But when you fully surrender to Krsna, you can give up all the regulations pertaining to these four social classes. That is why Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "In the ultimate issue, My instruction is to give up all religious formularies" -- including even Vedic formularies -- "and simply surrender to Me." "Brahmana-dharma," "ksatriya-dharma,""Hindu dharma," this dharma, that dharma -- give all these up and simply surrender to Krsna, because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Krsna. "You directly come to Me; then everything is all right."
Disciple: So many people concoct their own system and say, "This is the way to go to God."
Srila Prabhupada: Then let them suffer. What can be done? If you don't accept the laws of the state and you manufacture your own laws, then you'll suffer. The state says, "Keep to the right." But if you make your own law -- "No, I will keep to the left" -- then you'll suffer. It's a fact.
Krsna is personally advising: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all your concocted religions and surrender to Me alone." take His advice and be happy.

 

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Society Going to the Dogs

June 29, 1976

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Pusta Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, this questionnaire was sent to you by Bhavan's Journal, a cultural and religious magazine in Bombay. They are questioning various religious and spiritual leaders, trying to get the answers to some of the important questions that are perplexing people today. So there's a list of questions, and the first is this: "Is the influence of religion over the masses on the wane?"Srila Prabhupada: Yes. This is predicted in Srimad-Bhagavatam [12.2.1]:
tatas canu-dinam dharmah
satyam saucam ksama daya
kalena balina rajan
nanksyaty ayur balam smrtih
"In Kali-yuga, this age of quarrel and hypocrisy, there shall be a waning of these qualities: religiosity, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, memory, bodily strength, duration of life, and mercy." These are the human assets -- qualities which make a human being distinct from the animals. But these things will decline. There will be almost no mercy, there will be almost no truthfulness, memory will be shortened, duration of life shortened. Similarly, religion will practically vanish. So that means gradually human beings will descend to the platform of animals.
Especially when there is no religion, human beings are simply animals. This any common man can distinguish -- that a dog does not understand what religion is. The dog is also a living being, but he's not interested in what is being discussed here about Bhagavad-gita or Srimad-Bhagavatam. That is the distinction between man and dog: the animal is not interested. So when human beings are becoming uninterested in religion, then they're becoming animals.
And how can there be happiness or peace in animal society? The big leaders want to keep the citizenry as animals, and at the same time they are striving to make a United Nations. How is it possible? United Animals? Is it possible? Society for United Animals. [Laughter.] In the science of logic it is said, "Man is a rational animal." So when rationality is missing, one becomes simply an animal. What is the possibility of being a human being?
In human society, whether you are a Christian or a Muhammadan or a Hindu or a Buddhist, it doesn't matter. But there must be some system of religion -- that is human society. And human society without religion -- animal society. This is the plain fact. Why are people unhappy now? Because they are neglecting religion.
One gentleman has written me that Marx said, "Religion is the opium of the people." That means the Communists are very adamant against God consciousness because they think that religion has spoiled the whole social atmosphere. Religion might have been misused, but that does not mean that religion should be avoided. Real religion should be taken. Simply because religion has not been properly executed by the so-called priests, that does not mean religion should be rejected. If my eye is giving me some kind of trouble on account of a cataract, that doesn't mean my eye should be plucked out. The cataract should be removed. So that is the idea of the Krsna consciousness movement -- to remove the cataract from people's religious vision.
Generally, modern so-called religious leaders have no conception of God, and yet they are preaching religion. What good is that religion? People are simply being misled. Real religion means God's order: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. If your religion has no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Still, without any conception of God, they are professing some religion. How long will it go on artificially? It will deteriorate. That ignorance about God has resulted in the present condition.
Religion means the order of God, just as law means the order of the state. Now, if in your social system there is no state, where is the question of the state's order? You will simply manufacture your own order. Today that is going on in the field of religion: there is no conception of God and therefore no following of God's order.
But we devotees of Krsna have a clear conception of God. Here is God: Krsna. And He's giving orders. We accept those orders. So it is clear religion. But if there is no conception of God, no order of God, then where is the question of religion? Ask someone in some other religious system what their conception of the form of God is. Can anyone tell clearly? Nobody can say. But we shall immediately say,
venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam
barhavatamsam asitambudha-sundarangam
kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept at playing on His flute, whose eyes are like petals of a blooming lotus, whose head is bedecked with a peacock's feather, whose figure of beauty is tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and whose unique loveliness charms millions of Cupids." [Brahma-samhita 5.30]
Immediately, description -- "Here is God." Then there is religion. And if there is no conception of God, where is the question of religion? Bogus. That is why religiosity and the other noble human qualities are declining. People have no conception of God, and therefore there is no understanding of religion. As a result, the whole human civilization is declining. And because it is declining, human beings are becoming more and more like animals.

 

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Zen And Aimless Blind Man

June 13, 1974

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Deshimaru: (French)Yogesvara: (translating for Deshimaru) He suggests that perhaps this force is something more than person. Since it is in all people, it is something that all people share, but it's beyond them.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but in all people the force is a person. Just like the force is in him, force in me, but we are person. (French)
Yogesvara: This force is the soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. So soul is a person. (French)
Yogesvara: He's confused: what do you define by person then? Because our experience is this person.
Prabhupada: Just like I am a living being; I have got living force. You have got living force. But we are talking as person.
Yogesvara: His question is: how is it that the soul is also a person?
Prabhupada: Because I am soul, you are soul, we keep our person. That is person. (French)
Yogesvara: He suggests that we are only individuals, distinct, because of the bodily difference, that now we are persons, but afterwards we become one.
Prabhupada: Not bodily. Because you are individual, therefore you have got individual body. Just like my coat. It is cut according to me, not I am according to the coat. The dress is made according to the person, not the person becomes according to the dress. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that to... He doesn't see the application. He says if we're just...
Prabhupada: Why not application? Why not application?
Yogesvara: He says it's more important to resolve the problems of why man is suffering rather than discuss whether the soul is a person or not.
Prabhupada: Because he has got different dress, different person. (French)
Yogesvara: So he's asking: therefore, what is the conclusion? If the soul is a person, how does that help us to solve the problem of the man's suffering?
Prabhupada: That is another thing, why man is suffering. First of all... Just like we have to find out the disease, why he is suffering, and if the disease is cured, the suffering is cured. (French) (aside:) Why the others, they do not come? Why is that? What kind of GBC?
Yogesvara: Because there's an old Buddhist saying that no matter what kind of body you have, whether it be made of feathers or flesh or whatever kind of body you have, the problem is how to get out of it.
Prthu Putra: (correcting Yogesvara's translation) No, it's not question of body. If you receive an arrows. You have to translate clearly. If you receive an arrows, it doesn't matter if the arrow is made with wood, with iron, with anything. But just to take out the arrows of your body because that's the cause of suffering.
Prabhupada: Why the GBC men are not interested in these talks?
Satsvarupa: I'm interested, I was just doing secretary work.
Prabhupada: That's all right. How you will do secretary work if you do not hear? These are the important philosophy is going on. Where is the other man Bhagavan dasa? These important talks going on and you do not..., you think that you have learned everything. What is this?
Yogesvara: This young gentleman's question is: if you are pierced with an arrow, it's not so much important to discuss how the arrow has got there. Just like you suggest we define the disease before we try to cure it.
Prabhupada: No, we are not caring how the arrows, but you have got the arrows, you must take out the arrows.
Yogesvara: That is his point also.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the disease is because he has forgotten his own self, therefore he is suffering. (French)
Yogesvara: He says that actually that is the actual problem, to find out our real self.
Prabhupada: Suppose a man, a sane man, has become insane. That insanity should be cured. Then he becomes a sane man. (French)
Yogesvara: Yes, he must understand that he is crazy.
Prabhupada: Yes. He must know... He may understand or not understand. Somehow or other, he has become crazy. So if the craziness is cured, then he is normal man.
Bhagavan: Yogesvara, let Prthu translate.
Prthu Putra: His point... He says if a man understands that he is crazy, then he is not crazy any more.
Yogesvara: Prabhupada says somehow or other, if he understands or not, if he gets cured of his insanity...
Prabhupada: So the insanity is just like you are dressed and if you identify yourself with the dress, that is insanity. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says he agrees. That means to be identified with the appearance.
Prabhupada: So that is insanity. We are actually the living force, soul, but we are identifying at the present moment with the material body. Everyone is thinking, "I am Japanese, I am Englishman, I am German, I am Indian, I am white, I am black," but that is his insanity. So this insanity should be cured, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul." And when he understand that he is spirit soul, he should be engaged in the business of the spirit soul. And because he is misidentifying himself with this body he is engaged with the bodily activities. So when he stops his bodily activities and he begins his spiritual activities, then he will be cured. So far bodily, I mean to say, pains and pleasure, that will be automatically cured when he understands that he is not body. Just like I feel heat and cold on account of this body. (French)
Prthu Putra: They believe that the soul and the body is one thing.
Prabhupada: How it is one?
Prthu Putra: He says we have one body, we have the soul, and these two things cannot be separated.
Prabhupada: How the man becomes dead? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the man is like a phenomenon. He appears and he disappears. And when he disappears, he merge in this cosmic force.
Yogesvara: Like anything. Like a flower that grows and dies and merges again into the earth.
Prabhupada: Merges?
Yogesvara: Just like a flower grows from the earth...
Prabhupada: They do not believe in the reincarnation, next birth? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says there is no personal reincarnation of the soul. When the body dies... [break] (French) He says, himself, he has no answer, but the Zen philosophy has one answer.
Prabhupada: Zen philosophy answer? (French)
Yogesvara: He was that cosmic force. Before birth, man was the universality of everything.
Prabhupada: And what you are now?
Yogesvara: And now he is himself. Now he is different.
Prabhupada: So how you became from zero?
Prthu Putra: No, he don't say he is different. He says, "Now I am myself." (French) His point is that he doesn't think that man is more important than the flower or the table. It's all the same.
Prabhupada: Then why he is anxious for man's suffering? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the man is there. The suffering is there.
Prabhupada: No. So why he is bothering about suffering? He was zero, beginning, and he will be zero and now he is also zero. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says there is two aspect. There is this aspect: everything is zero. But there is another aspect. There is a man who is always searching after to find the solution to his problem.
Prabhupada: Why solution? He will automatically become zero. Then finish everything. (laughter)
Karandhara: Just dying that solves all the problems.
Prabhupada: No, he said that is natural. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says religious life is a very deep thing on man and he has to search out, and that must be his goal. Even if there is no reason, it doesn't matter. He has to search.
Prabhupada: No. Then how he can explain from zero something so important come into existence? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says actually he doesn't start from zero. He starts from the cosmic force.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prthu Putra: He says it's something we cannot define what is it. A man is not able to define this force.
Prabhupada: That means... You cannot define: that means your knowledge is imperfect. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says his knowledge is imperfect, that's for sure, but he says to define this cosmic force with the human mind is to bring down...
Yogesvara: He says actually a human mind cannot define it. A human mind can't actually encompass the whole of the cosmic force.
Prabhupada: If you cannot define, there is no remedy for your suffering. Just like a disease, unless the physician knows what is the infection, he cannot treat. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says one thing: we don't have to put name on disease or we don't have to know this name is called like that, this name is called like that, to cure it.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the system. If you go to a physician, he will try to understand what is the cause of the disease. Then he makes treatment. (French)
Prthu Putra: They agree about knowing the cause of the disease, that it's necessary to know.
Prabhupada: Yes. That, what is the cause of the suffering? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says ignorance of himself. The man suffer because he's ignoring himself.
Prabhupada: So let him become in knowledge. (French)
Karandhara: How does the cosmic force become ignorant of itself and fall into this condition? If before he was this form he was the cosmic energy, how he can fall down into ignorance and become an individual, limited, conditioned soul? (French)
Yogesvara: I'm finding it hard to be able to translate because he says that we're ignorant and he says at the same time we're not ignorant.
Prabhupada: What is this? When you speak of ignorance, that means he has fallen down from knowledge. That is ignorance. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says this knowledge is there anywhere for everyone, but the men take it or don't take it, ignore it or get themself interested.
Prabhupada: No, why...? As soon as you say ignorant, that means he has lost his knowledge. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says there is ignorance, there is knowledge, but there is something beyond this knowledge and this ignorance.
Prabhupada: What is that something? Do you know it? (French)
Prthu Putra: He called this things God. That is God.
Prabhupada: So therefore we are suffering forgetting God. (French)
Yogesvara: He says, "Well, all right, that's O.K. You can say that we're suffering because we forgot God. The important thing is that we're suffering."
Prabhupada: Yes, that we also say. But we know the cause. (French)
Yogesvara: He says but you are suffering still.
Prabhupada: I may suffering, but I am under treatment. But you are not under treatment. You will die. (French)
Yogesvara: He says Zen Buddhism is also a kind of treatment.
Prabhupada: But if you do not know what is the goal of the treatment, then how the treatment will be successful? (French)
Yogesvara: He says we may choose a goal for ourselves spiritually, but after all, we're the ones who chose the goal, so it's all an individual question.
Prabhupada: No, we are not choosing, God is asking to do this. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says therefore we don't have to worry about what's the result. We just have to practice without being attached to the result.
Prabhupada: No, without result, why should I practice unnecessarily? (aside) Go. Take sleep. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the religious life is not a bargain between God and him. He says we just have to practice without gaining, without waiting for any result, without praying...
Prabhupada: No, no, we are not so fool, without any result we are going to do anything. We are not so fool. (French)
Bhagavan: According to their philosophy, if whether you practice or you don't practice you get the same result in the end, what's the use of doing anything? If at death everything merges back, what's the use of doing anything? Why not commit suicide? (French)
Prabhupada: No, the idea is that when you know that you will be cured, then I take the medicine. And if I do not know whether I will be cured or not, why shall I take the medicine? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says from the medical point that's all right. But from the religious point...
Prabhupada: So you are talking about medical point. Why you place something utopian? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says this example of medical point we made is just an analogy. But the religious life...
Prabhupada: Their analogy must be perfect in all points, otherwise it is no analogy.
Karandhara: Prabhupada, the premise of Zen is that the cosmic force falls into misery when it develops an individual desire. So an individual, as long as he has desires and he wants things, then he's forced to suffer, to take on a body and to suffer. So the Zen satori is to give up all desire, not care one way or the other what happens.
Prabhupada: That is also desire, to give up all desire.
Karandhara: Yes, it is.
Prabhupada: That is also desire. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says that the person who is practicing without goal, without desire, without getting the satori without anything, then he is practicing the satori.
Prabhupada: Where is the point of no desire? (chuckles)
Karandhara: No point. It's ambiguous. (French)
Prthu Putra: For himself it's just to practice zazen, to meditate on Zen.
Prabhupada: That is also desire.
Prthu Putra: He says that's for sure. In the beginning when they are practicing zazen is always some material desire. We desire that, we desire that. We would like to know God or something like that. But by practicing zazen finally we just come to the point -- we don't have any more desire, just by practicing zazen.
Prabhupada: Then what is that position of no desire?
Karandhara: The real position is to eliminate the self. The only possible way that they can achieve no desire, no initiative, is to eliminate the self altogether, to make the self become eliminated and just be the cosmic one again without any self.
Prabhupada: Yes, that will be done automatically. Why you practice so much? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the practice of zazen harmonize the self in this cosmic force.
Bhagavan: Does that harmony means to merge?
Prabhupada: Now let me explain. Suppose the material elements are there. Somehow or other, combined together they have become this body. Is it not? Now, this body, when I am dead body, automatically it again becomes dispersed to the different elements. So this is taking place for even cats and dogs. Then what is the value of my meditation? (French)
Yogesvara: Actually, Srila Prabhupada, you've defeated him. He doesn't really have an answer.
Prthu Putra: He says so then I am practicing like a cat and dog, but the deep goal...
Prabhupada: But I mean to say what result you will get more than the cats and dogs?
Karandhara: Why practice? (French)
Bhagavan: What happens to the cat and the dog in the end?
Karandhara: Actually, Zen philosophy, they accept reincarnation, that the self keeps on taking bodies until he becomes selfless, and it's only in the human form that he can develop that selflessness.
Prabhupada: Then they have to accept good work and bad work.
Karandhara: Yes, they do. They have a similar understanding of karma so far as the material self is concerned, and that the soul or the self takes on different forms until it becomes perfectly selfless. And then it merges back into the nondescript, the cosmic force. So I don't know if this young man's versed in Zen philosophy...
Prabhupada: That is our definition, anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Sunyam means, you have to give up all material desires. Jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. But the desire should be synchronized. Anukulyena krsnanu..., you have to desire to satisfy Krsna.
Karandhara: Well, they come to the point of trying to give up all material desires. But at that point they say there's nothing, there's no self...
Prabhupada: That is their ignorance, or they do not understand, or they do not try to explain because the followers will not understand. That is our also point, anyabhilasita-sunyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], to become desireless. But after becoming desireless, what is it? Just like you become painless from the disease. That means painless means everything finished? Then let me enjoy this pain. After being painless means everything is finished. No. Painless means no material pain but spiritual life. That is painless. (French)
Karandhara: Their point is they come... Zen Buddhism or Buddhism goes as far as trying to obliterate the material ego.
Prabhupada: No, it is clear as you said, as you said that unless he becomes desireless. That desire means material desire.
Karandhara: Yes. That's actually what they're speaking about when they say desire.
Prabhupada: So they are not so advanced that there is spiritual desire. That they do not understand. But so far the material desirelessness, that is accepted by us also. (French) It is something like this. Just like a child without education at home is simply doing mischief. So the parents want to make him  mischievousless. But if the parent does not know that he should be given better engagement, otherwise it cannot be mischievousless, that he does not know. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says there is something beyond material desire and spiritual desire.
Karandhara: No, he doesn't understand the definition when we say spiritual then. He's confusing spiritual with something like esoteric. Spiritual is the opposite of material. And beyond material desire, that means beyond gross and subtle desire, when we say spiritual we mean transcendental, the opposite of material.
Prabhupada: Purified, purified.
Yogesvara: Purified desire. (French)
Bhagavan: Prabhupada says spiritual means pure desire, not that it's opposite but it's pure desire. (French)
Yogesvara: He says it's still a desire. It may be a pure desire, but...
Prabhupada: Because he has no information what is spiritual desire, he thinks material desire is as good as spiritual desire. (French)
Karandhara: They don't have a conception of spiritual. To them everything is material.
Prabhupada: No, it is ignorance. Just like a man is suffering from disease. He is also lying down. He is also eating. He is also passing stool. And if he is informed that "After your disease is cured, you will also nicely sleep, you will also nicely walk, you will also nicely eat," but he is thinking, "Again eating? Again sleeping? Again...?" This is something like this. "So I don't want to be cured."
Karandhara: Yes, that's actually the psychology behind Zen philosophy.
Prabhupada: That is the trouble, yes. He does not know what is the sleeping in healthy condition and what is the eating in healthy condition. He thinks this eating and that eating the same. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says for him, spiritual and material, they are going together. In spiritual is something material, and in material is something spiritual. And they are... Together they form harmony, and this harmony is the goal.
Prabhupada: But he has no knowledge that although... Just like here is my leg, and here is my nail. Now when I cut the nail I don't feel, and as soon as you come little later, the skin, you feel pain. So they are one. But why there is no sensation, and why there is sensation? (French)
Yogesvara: He doesn't understand the analogy. He doesn't understand the example, how that explains spiritual life as compared to material life.
Prabhupada: Then why... How he will understand? Let me know. I will tell him. Let me know how he will understand.
Yogesvara: He doesn't understand the example of the skin and the nail. How does that explain...
Prabhupada: Why? It is everyone understands. Why he does not understand? Here is the nail; here is the skin. As soon I prick the nail cutter here, oh that "Ooooo!" And (chuckles) while it is cutting on, it is going on nicely. Why he does not understand?
Prthu Putra: The thing is he doesn't understand the analogy with spiritual and material.
Prabhupada: Analogy is, means where there is no spiritual sensation, that is matter. (French)
Karandhara: It's just merely meant to be an illustration, not that you're supposed to compare everything all the way around. The body is also material; the nail is also material. The point is that that which is not sensed spiritually by the true identity of the soul, that which is experienced outwardly by the material body and the senses, that is matter. But the basic element, or the basic consciousness is spiritual, and that's eternal. Whereas the sensation from outward, like what I see today and taste today, that is temporary, but the taster, the seer, he is eternal, the self. (French)
Prabhupada: As soon as that spirit soul will be off from this body, this part of the body also will be without any sensation. Therefore the distinction of sensation and no sensation is due to the presence of the spirit soul. (French)
Yogesvara: He says the important thing is the basic principles. If you accept the basic principle, for example that the soul has a form, then we can discuss many many things afterwards.
Prabhupada: Yes, soul has a form. (French)
Yogesvara: He's asking is the form of the soul material?
Prabhupada: No, spiritual. (French)
Yogesvara: He says it's an idea that he finds difficult to understand, spiritual form.
Prabhupada: Yes, that requires knowledge. That requires how to get that knowledge. He has no such knowledge. (French)
Karandhara: You explain to him the basic difference between the Buddhist concept and our concept is that after the material, the ignorance of the material body and the material self, is cleared away and eliminated, there is still a self. There's still a body, but it's spiritual. It's opposite from material. Whereas the material body is simply temporary and liable to suffer, the spiritual body is eternal and never suffers. It's just the opposite of material. Buddhists go towards... They get to the point of eliminating the material, but then they don't, they don't have the next step, or the spiritual.
Prabhupada: No understanding of the spiritual. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the concept of Zen is to see spirituality in matter and something material in spirit, in spirituality. That is the concept of Zen, to realize spiritual life according to matter.
Karandhara: What that means... That's just an expression of the idea that everything is ultimately one. You don't have to make value judgments, you shouldn't make value judgments or say one thing is better than the other, that everything is ultimately the same, and the self is also the same as everything. So there's no distinction and there's no objective or conscious awareness of anything because everything is everything.
Yogesvara: There's no discrimination.
Karandhara: Yes, there's no self. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says in the daily life there is varieties. If something wrong, we do something right. But when we are speaking about spiritual elevated life, everything is one.
Prabhupada: Yes, when the spirit is gone, then your daily life is also gone. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says yes, for sure, we all die.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore daily life means so long the spirit is there. As soon as the spirit is gone, there is no more daily life. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says but the goal...
Prabhupada: Has the dead man has any daily life? (French)
Yogesvara: He says his daily life is just lying in his coffin.
Prabhupada: That is daily life? That is perpetual life. (chuckles)
Karandhara: No, ask him is death always the solution? If we're in ignorance or we're suffering, when I die, even if I don't attain Zen within this life, when I die, does that solve all the problems? (French)
Prabhupada: That I said already. The cats and dogs, they are also having the same result without any Zen philosophy. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says death is a part of life. The question is not to die or not to die. He says the question is not to know we are going to get salvation by going to die or not. The important is just life, and the death is part of life. Here and now, what's happening here, in the instant, here, now, that's important for him.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Prthu Putra: What is important for him is here and now what he's doing in the instant. He says death is just part of life.
Bhagavan: So what difference does it make if someone becomes religious or if someone becomes a demon? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says in a demoniac person there is some religiosity, and in a religious person there is some demoniac qualities too.
Bhagavan: Are you a demon? (French)
Prthu Putra: As we want.
Prabhupada: No, so far we know, Lord Buddha is considered as incarnation of God. He was sympathetic with the animal-killing. So he wanted to stop this animal-killing. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says he thinks that Buddha was just a man who was searching how to solve the problems of death and life, and when he got some experience he preached this message.
Karandhara: Yes, the Zen school don't accept the preeminence of the personality of Buddha. They say Buddha is just a state of mind, and various men in history have attained that state of mind, that no one particular man was the Buddha, set apart from everyone else.
Prabhupada: At least, he set the example before others. That is not wonderful, but he set the example. Therefore he is original Buddha. (French)
Prthu Putra: He doesn't deny the personality of Buddha, and he says the most important thing they are following is some kind of disciplic succession from Buddha until now. He says the most important thing is the relation with the disciple and the master who is in affiliation from Buddha.
Karandhara: But they don't have the same historical... I don't think they're considered the same historical personality. I studied Zen myself a number of years, and they don't distinguish one particular individual in one particular period of time as being the Buddha. All the way back in history as long as history goes, any man who's come to the state of enlightenment has become a Buddha. It didn't begin anywhere. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says he doesn't give any special meaning to Buddha. Sometimes Buddha is with them, sometimes Buddha is a concept of God like the Christianity they call God, or Buddha is all this disciplic succession. He doesn't give any special meaning to the word Buddha.
Prabhupada: No, no, buddha, actually buddha means knowledge, "one who knows," that is the meaning. So that is existing always. Now, we are talking your (sic:) Jain Buddha. Jain Buddha. No? What is the...?
Karandhara: Zen. Zen's a later development. The school of Zen started...
Prabhupada: So we are trying to study this Zen Buddha. Buddha means, ordinarily, knowledge. Budha bhava-saman... [break] (French)
Karandhara: The Zen school is a liberalization of the old Buddhist doctrines. Previously, hundreds of years ago, to completely follow the Buddhist path one had to renounce all activity. He had to go away from civilization and live in hermitage. Zen...
Prabhupada: Nirvana. Finish everything.
Karandhara: Yes. Zen allows a man... According to the precepts of Zen, you can act within the world. You can be a businessman, you can be a soldier, you can be anything, and still attain the same state of perfection by acting without desire, by acting unattached to the results.
Prabhupada: So that is our philosophy. We... Arjuna acted as soldier, and still, he was recognized as devotee. (French)
Bhagavan: What is the use of practice, if you practice or you don't practice you still get the same result?
Prabhupada: No, practice must be there. You cannot avoid practice. We also practice.
Karandhara: What he says is the form of the practice doesn't really matter, but the inspiration or the motivation to practice, to try and become desireless, that is the dynamic thing. It doesn't matter what form it takes.
Bhagavan: The problem is still death, though.
Prabhupada: No, practice without any aim...
Karandhara: They say the aim is the practice itself. Just like we say the aim of devotional service...
Prabhupada: No, no, the aim is there. Aim is there. He says that to become desireless. That is the aim. So why does he say that there is no aim?
Prthu Putra: When he is talking about practice, he's talking about special practice, the zazen practice. And his concept in zazen, his concept of Buddha, is this disciplic succession, that to practice under the guidance of the spiritual master of this disciplic succession of zazen from Buddha. That is his practice.
Prabhupada: No, if he says that "There is no aim; you go on practicing," so aim is there, he says, that to become desireless. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says zazen is in himself the satori, is the practice. We don't practice to get the satori, but the satori is going automatically with the practice.
Prabhupada: No, no, the aim of practice is to become desireless. Is it not? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the goal of the practice is to become without goal.
Prabhupada: Oh, it is nonsense. (chuckles) What is this nonsense? Goal is without goal. Then what is this? These are vague terms.
Karandhara: It's like saying nothing is true, but then that's a truism.
Prabhupada: It is darkness.
Pusta-krsna: They want to become minus.
Prabhupada: But he is plus always. (French) No, if you have no goal... There is example: "Man without any aim is ship without any rudder." What is called? So suppose if the ship goes... (others are talking at the same time) Aeroplane is going with a aim to land in some country, but if he goes on simply without any aim, then there will be disaster.
Karandhara: Well, they have an aim. But the aim is... Because they haven't...
Prabhupada: That you say they have got; he does not say. You say.
Karandhara: No, but I mean philosophically considering, they have an aim, but it's very obscure. The substance and the significance of that aim is without form or conception.
Prabhupada: So without aim, what is the use of practice? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says he likes the practice without goal, and he doesn't give any value to the practice because there is goal.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Without goal, practicing something, it is foolishness. (French)
Karandhara: No, he is also working for a goal. He just differs semantically with what we say.
Prabhupada: No, he does not know what is that goal. No, he does not know what is that goal.
Karandhara: Well, he says the goal is to become goal-less.
Prabhupada: We give the goal... We give the goal, yajnarthe. Yajnarthe karma. We give the goal: for satisfying the Lord Visnu, Yajna, yajna-purusa. We know the goal. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says, "Who is Visnu?"
Prabhupada: Visnu is God. (French)
Prthu Putra: And how we can satisfy God?
Prabhupada: That you have to learn from me. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says yes.
Prabhupada: "Me" means from the spiritual master. If you don't work for Visnu, Yajna, yajnarthe karmanah anyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9], then you will be entangled in this birth and death. Just like if I do not know what is healthy life, then, if I live whimsically then I will infect so many contaminous disease, and I will have to suffer one after another, one after another, one after another. Therefore the aim is Visnu. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. These people, they do not know that what is the aim of life, the aim is Visnu. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah. They are implicated with the external energy, therefore very much anxious to mitigate this suffering, mitigate that suffering, mitigate that suffering, that suffering, that suf... The suffering will never end. Simply they will be bewildered, one after another, one after another, sometimes man's life, sometimes a dog's life, sometimes cat's life. That's life. So this kind of philosophy is propounded by blind men. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. One blind man is guiding another blind man without knowing the strict, stringent laws of nature. (aside:) There is one bead lying for three hundred years there. Whose? He has taken initiation. He does not know where is the bead? On the... There is a bead. Just see.
Karandhara: On the heater there's someone's beads.
Prabhupada: So I see it was lying on the bathroom. Then I brought it here, and it's still lying unused. Whose it is?
Bhagavan: It is mine.
Prabhupada: You are so forgetful?
Bhagavan: No, I was looking for them.
Prabhupada: Why? Why did you...?
Bhagavan: I left them on your bathroom door, I think.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) Hmm. So this kind of leadership will not make any solution, if you do not know what is the real goal. (French)
Prthu Putra: He doesn't agree if a man create or imagine a goal, he says, the real goal, the real things...
Prabhupada: No, it is not imagination. That is another foolishness, to imagine a goal. If we imagine some goal, that is another rascaldom. We have to understand what is the goal of life from superior. Just like a child. He does not know what is the goal of life, but his parents know he must be educated. So goal has not to be imagined. Goal has to be understood from superior. So if the superior man is also blind, then he cannot lead other blind forward. If a blind man takes the position of superior, then he will lead these followers to the ditch only. That's all. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says who can understand that someone is blind or not blind?
Yogesvara: Who can judge.
Prabhupada: But because he has no eyes, he cannot see. Therefore he has to hear. He has to hear. (French)
Pusta-krsna: How can one discriminate what is a real authority and who is a blind person posing as an authority?
Yogesvara: How can we tell a real authority?
Pusta-krsna: As opposed to someone who is posing as an authority?
Prabhupada: This authority means just like you follow somebody. You are going to somewhere by aeroplane. You do not know. But others are purchasing ticket and going there, so you have to follow them. That's all. So the authority is if he does not know... Therefore we are giving the chance, the association of the devotee. The devotee, they are practicing something for going back to home, back to Godhead, so you have to mix with the devotees and then gradually understand.
Karandhara: No, what he's saying is: what is the standard of measurement? There are so many people saying they are the authority. How does one individually judge which one is the best or proper?
Prabhupada: So that he has to judge himself. It is like this: just like if you eat, then you judge yourself whether you are satisfied or not. (French) The process is described. No, no, the process is described. First of all, the thing is that he is inquisitive to know the ultimate goal. That is first qualification, that he is actually searching after the goal of life, the actual. That is first qualification. If he has no such aim, that "I must find out the actual aim of life," then he will remain always in darkness. Then next thing, next process will be that he has to associate with person, those who are also actually the goal of life. And then next process is, as Bhagavan was telling last night, that we have no problem. Then next process will be how we have become free from all problem. Then he will say, "You do like this." Then, acting according to him, one who says that I have no problem, "So let me act like him," when he feels, "Yes, I have no problem," then it is fixed up. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says in the Buddhist philosophy there is these three things. There is these three steps.
Prabhupada: No, no, apart from this philosophy, we are talking general, general talk. So when he understands, "Yes, I have also no problem," then he is fixed up. Then spiritual life begins. Yes. When he becomes problemless, no more problem, then spiritual life begins. So long he is busy to solve the problems of the material, that is no spiritual life. Find out this verse, yam hi na vyathayanty ete purusam purusarsabha, sama-duhkha-sama... Yam hi na vyathayanty ete purusam purusarsabha. Y-a-m, yam.
Pusta-krsna: Yam hi na vyathayanty ete...
Prabhupada: Ete, yes.
Pusta-krsna: 2.15.
Prabhupada: Sah amrtatvaya kalpate.
Pusta-krsna:
yam hi na vyathayanty ete
purusam purusarsabha
sama-duhkha-sukham dhiram
so 'mrtatvaya kalpate
"Translation: O best among men (Arjuna), the person who is not disturbed by happiness and distress and is steady in both is certainly eligible for liberation."
Prabhupada: Yes. So long these material disturbances disturb him, he cannot get any spiritual life. Fixed up, that is the position of fixed up. (French)
Prthu Putra: He's all right with this point. He agree with this point.
Prabhupada: He will agree with all the points provided he is fixed up. (French) Not, (sic:) after death, in this life you can be fixed up, provided you associate with the persons who are fixed up. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says we have to be constantly fixed up, not only one moment and after it's slowing. We always have to be fixed up each time, each time, all the time, all the time.
Prabhupada: Not each time. Just like our devotees. They come in the sankirtana once, twice, thrice. He becomes interested. Then he becomes fixed up. (French)
Prthu Putra: He says to want to become fixed up, that is important, just on the moment.
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless one is fixed up, his spiritual life does not begin. Spiritual life means fixed up, who is not agitated. Sama-duhkha-sukham duhkham. What is that? Same verse.
Pusta-krsna: Sama-duhkha-sukham dhiram. "unaltered in distress or happiness."
Prabhupada: Is there any purport?
Pusta-krsna: "Anyone who is steady in his determination for the advanced stage of spiritual realization and can equally tolerate the onslaughts of distress and happiness is certainly a person eligible for liberation." (French)
Prthu Putra: He says so we then just have to practice now.
Prabhupada: Yes. Goal must be fixed up, practice must be there, and one must be fixed up. Then it will be... (French)
Prthu Putra: He says it's very simple.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is simple. It is simple. First thing to know that I am not this body. Because within this body there is the living force. I am that living force. Then he will understand that there is living force in this big cosmic gigantic manifestation. There is a living force. So what is the relationship with that living force and this living force? Then when it is understood that "Living force is great, and I am small," then what is my duty? Here we see that the great takes service from the small. Therefore my business is to serve the great. That is final. In three lines you can understand the whole truth, provided you understood. But if you become rigid to your understanding, own understanding, then it is very difficult. Otherwise it is very simple. You are a living force. There is no doubt. Is there any doubt? You are a living force. (French)
Prthu Putra: No, he has no doubt.
Prabhupada: Then there must be one living force for the whole cosmic manifestation. So He is also individual; I am also individual. But He is great; I am small. The small business is to serve the great. If the small falsely thinks himself that he is as great, that is ignorance. So one has to get out of this ignorance that he is thinking falsely that he is as great as the big. Then he is in fixed up. Yes. Then further progress.
Bhagavan: Then we can ask, "What is that great?"
Prabhupada: Yes, that we are doing! You can understand very easily. Just like you want money. You are in need of money, but you have no sufficient money. So greatness means he has more than sufficient money. That is greatness. Suppose you are weak, and if He is like you, no. He is unlimitedly stronger than you. You have got knowledge, but not perfect knowledge. But He has got unlimited knowledge. In this way you can understand greatness. (French)
Prthu Putra: He understands the point.
Prabhupada: Greatness should be understood, comparing my position. We can understand, "This man is greater than me. He is superior than me." That we can understand. Similarly, we can understand. Just like we human being, we are floating, flying one biggest airplane, 747, and we are thinking we are very wonderful, but that great is floating millions of planets in the air. But the foolish man cannot see the process. He can see that a pilot is floating this airplane, so there must be one big pilot who is floating all these things. But he cannot see. Therefore he says, "Nature." So he cannot see. Just like a child he cannot see that within the plane there is a pilot (pronounces pee-lot, French pronunciation of "pilot") or pilot. He is thinking that the plane is moving automatically. So one who is foolish, he sees the cosmic wonderful work only. He does not know there is a pilot. And in the absence of that knowledge he is thinking that I am also being moved in that way. So so long I do not see the pilot of the cosmic movement, I am fool. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says, na mam duskrtinah mudhah. (laughs) Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15]. His knowledge is lost.
Pusta-krsna: "Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest amongst men, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons, do not surrender unto Me." (French)
Prabhupada: So naradhama, means lowest of the mankind. In the human form of life one could understand that as there is a pilot in the aeroplane, there is a pilot on this big cosmic manifestation.
Yogesvara: Yes, but his last reaction to that was that he always finds Indian analogies amusing.
Prabhupada: But he has no other knowledge. Without analogy he cannot understand. Then it will be dogmatic. So if you go this way you are dogmatic, and if you this way, analogy. Then what way he will take? (French)
Prabhupada: But you are a fool. In your own way means foolish way. You do not know. (French)
Pusta-krsna: The example is that this body, there is a living force within the body which is causing it to move and to work, and that living force is the soul. And when the soul leaves this body, then the body is no longer moving and eating and talking and hearing and seeing. So in the same way in this universe there is a greater spiritual person, and His body, in a sense, is this whole universe, and it is moving on the same principle because He is the supreme consciousness.
Deshimaru: But what do you know about the soul leaving the body? Maybe when the body leaves the soul, the soul also dies.
Pusta-krsna: The point is that body and soul are two things.
Deshimaru: I think it is same thing.
Prabhupada: You think, but how you can prove?
Deshimaru: How you can prove that the body...?
Prabhupada: Yes, you cannot prove. When the soul is gone...
Yogesvara: He's asking how can we prove our point?
Prabhupada: Yes, I can prove that the body is dead because the soul is gone. (French)
Yogesvara: He says, "Oh, I can also say that when the body is dead, the soul is dead."
Karandhara: No, but at the time of death the body is still there. Just like your body is there, at the time of death your body will still be there, but it won't be the same, something is missing. Something's gone away. What's the difference between a dead body and a living body?
Prabhupada: How you can explain? Why the body's hand is there, leg is there, head is there, why it stopped working? (French)
Yogesvara: He says that when there is no longer any movement in the cells, scientific explanation.
Prabhupada: So why don't you... If you know that, then replace that cell.
Karandhara: The scientists don't have a perfect explanation either. They don't know exactly what death is.
Deshimaru: They cannot know also what life is.
Karandhara: They do. They know this much, that life is what is not present in a dead body. So it must be different than the body.
Deshimaru: But the death is... You can change also what you say.
Prabhupada: How you can change? Can you make the dead body alive? (French)
Karandhara: I can say that life is not present in a dead body, but you can't say that death is present in a live body. (French)
Prabhupada: No, he says that the living force and the body is the same.
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: Does he not say? But why the body becomes dead, and the living force go on? Why? Why the body is no more moving? (French)
Prthu Putra: He says when the body is dead, everything is gone, but what is still existing is the karma.
Prabhupada: Is the karma.
Prthu Putra: The karma. What is still existing when a body is dead and when the soul is gone, the something is still there, still existing, is the karma.
Pusta-krsna: Let's say if your hand is cut off, and it's lying there. Why is it that you are not conscious of that hand? (French)
Prthu Putra: Because the nerves are just cut.
Prabhupada: No, no, if the body and the hand is the same, when it is cut, then it is lying down on the floor. So why there is no consciousness. His question is very intelligent.
Deshimaru: Because the hand is cut.
Prabhupada: But it is hand. Why there is no consciousness?
Karandhara: It's part of the body. It should have its own consciousness if the body and consciousness is the same.
Prabhupada: You say the consciousness and body is the same. So when it is cut, why there is no consciousness? Therefore the body is different from consciousness. Therefore body is different from consciousness. (French)
Devotee: And also if he says that the soul and the body are the same, then what is the cause of death then? Then what is death?
Prabhupada: No, we say the soul goes away from this body. Just like if I am sitting here, I can go away from this room, so similarly, the soul is within the body, he goes away, and therefore the body is dead.
Devotee: That's our explanation, but what is his explanation of death? If the soul and the body are the same then what is the cause of death.
Prabhupada: That he does not know, he cannot explain.
Devotee: Is it that the soul gets old, and then because the soul dies, then the rest of the body doesn't work? (French)
Prabhupada: (aside:) Take it. Make arrangement within. (French) (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Mr. Deshimaru -- June 13, 1974, Paris

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