Mayapura, October 5, 1975
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Prabhupada: ...only here I have
seen. All the islands on the Pacific and Indian Ocean are all potential.
Philippines, very... The Philippine boys, I saw, very nice. They are not guided.
Fiji also.Prabhupada: Fiji. Fiji also. Fiji, mostly Indian, but the original
Fiji Fijians, they are also very nice.
Cyavana: What about Bali? There are also many...
Prabhupada: Bali, there are practically Hindus. Yes. Everywhere. The soul is pure. They have been made impure by misleading.
Cyavana: All the outside influences are also here trying to make propaganda.
Prabhupada: Just like here, this is maya influence. These things should be stopped.
Cyavana: The Chinese come and make propaganda. The Russians come and make propaganda. The Americans come and make propaganda. They become confused what to do.
Prabhupada: The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice.
Devotee: It is all volcanic. The soil here is all from volcano, volcanic soil, very rich.
Prabhupada: Oh? Volcanic or not volcanic, purnam idam [Isopanisad, Invocation]. When it is created by Lord, it is complete. You are originally from India? No.
Indian boy (2): No, Mauritius.
Indian boy (1): Our father from India.
Prabhupada: All of you? Bihar? No.
Indian boy (1): Bihar, yes, Bihar.
Prabhupada: [break] ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarasandha also belonged to Bihar. [ ...a great scientist?
Cyavana: Yes, I studied.
Prabhupada: How this sand is made?
Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory.
Prabhupada: No.
Pusta Krsna: Isn't it shells from the animals?
Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral.
Prabhupada: It is made from salt. It is called sodium silicate. (laughter)
Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral, and rocks, ground up.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Pusta Krsna: But if it's salt, Prabhupada, our experience of salt is generally that it dissolves in water, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Silicate there is.
Indian boy (2): Salt and silicate.
Prabhupada: You know something of science?
Indian boy (2): Some.
Prabhupada: It is melted in fire and glass is made.
Cyavana: It becomes clear.
Prabhupada: No, that you have to add chemicals.
Cyavana: Oh. [break]
Prabhupada: Hawaii, on the beach side, there are many, many coconut, eh?
Harikesa: Hm.
Cyavana: Many of them have been ripped up by the cyclone, pine trees and coconut trees.
Prabhupada: In Hawaii there is no cyclone, I think. Hm?
Harikesa: No.
Prabhupada: Why?
Harikesa: They have a volcano on one island. There is one volcano that goes every twelve years.
Prabhupada: Here there is any volcano, on this island?
Cyavana: Nothing left.
Indian boy (2): Only once. Once we had. The island has been created by a volcano itself. And then afterwards, they have no volcano. There are craters.
Cyavana: [break] ...volcano? There was a volcano here?
Indian boy (2): Yes.
Cyavana: When? Huh?
Indian boy (2): A crater, it...
Indian man (3): We are not so sure.
Cyavana: Recently it came up?
Indian man (3): No, we are not so sure because before human settlement in Mauritius.
Indian boy (2): No, but it is... [break] ...please tell us about the creation of the earth.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian boy (2): Creation, how... About the creation. I have read it from Bible too, about Adam and Eve. Do you think that it's true?
Prabhupada: What is the idea of Adam?
Indian boy (2): God has created him.
Prabhupada: So the same process is mentioned in Vedas. God created Brahma, and he created this universe.
Indian boy (2): All which we can see on the earth have been created by...
Prabhupada: Brahma.
Indian boy (2): Brahma. Who is Brahma?
Prabhupada: Brahma is the first creature in the universe, created by God. He came from the navel.
Indian boy (2): Therefore, by himself he could create everything, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Who?
Indian boy (2): Brahma himself? He is only one...
Prabhupada: Yes. He was empowered.
Indian boy (2): He was only one person.
Prabhupada: Empowered by God. God created Brahma, and he was empowered to create the universe.
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a female and male?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a male and a female, to create everything?
Prabhupada: Yes, male and female.
Indian boy (2): Then, apart from Brahma, there would have been something else.
Prabhupada: No, Brahma created male and female.
Indian boy (2): Oh, he himself created it from...?
Prabhupada: From his ear, from his eyes, from his..., like that. From many parts of his body.
Indian man (3): Swamiji, there is something quite confusing.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): Lord Krsna created Lord Visnu, and Lord Visnu in His turn created Lord Brahma. So...
Prabhupada: Not created, expanded. Just like one candle is burning, and you lit up another candle. So this candle is not created, it is simply power transfer. Expansion. You can call it expansion. Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya [Bs. 5.46]. Expansion of the light. This is, contains iodine, this ship. Iodine. That ship is going or coming?
Cyavana: Going. But he's sitting.
Prabhupada: Oh, it is standing.
Cyavana: It's sitting, yes.
Indian boy (2): Swamiji, do you think that Bible, about the Adam, Adam is Brahma? It has been copied from the Indian philosophy to put it there in different name?
Prabhupada: From historical point of view it is copied because Vedas are created by Brahma long, long, many millions, millions of years, and Bible is created two thousand years. So we have to take the original. All religious system of the world, they are taken from Vedas, from different parts. Therefore they are not complete. The age of Bible is not more than two thousand years. The age of Veda you cannot calculate, millions and millions of years.
Pusta Krsna: Why is it, Prabhupada, that in earlier parts of the Kali-yuga no one like yourself came throughout the rest of the world and preached Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: Huh? Preached? Caitanya Mahaprabhu preached. His descendant preached. Why do you say no one preached?
Pusta Krsna: But throughout the rest of the world, places like Japan and Australia...
Prabhupada: Your calculation of the world. If it is preached anywhere, that is preached on the world. It was not spread, you can say, but it was preached.
Cyavana: The seed was planted.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: They were saving it for you.
Prabhupada: For you also.
Pusta Krsna: I think they had their hands full with India. They had their hands full with India, all of the preachers.
Prabhupada: Yes. What they are collecting?
Harikesa: Crabs, I think. Crabs.
Indian man (4): Swamiji? It is prohibited to consume, consume flesh, meat. It's because there is soul in the body and if we kill it, therefore we are doing a sin. I think it's because that we can't consume meat according to the Vedic literature. But what about plants, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Plants also, you... They are also killed. They are also killed. But this is... Plants are killed by the order of Krsna. Therefore you are not responsible.
Indian man (4): Therefore, if we say that we can kill some animal by the order of Krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes, then you are not responsible. Suppose I kill one snake by the stick. The stick is not responsible; I am responsible.
Indian man (4): When do you think that you'd know that Krsna is responsible and not our...
Prabhupada: You learn from the sastra. You learn from Bhagavad-gita what Krsna says and do it. Then you are not responsible for anything. Just like there is lawbook. If you act... (aside:) Don't keep so near. ...act according to lawbook, then you are not criminal. If you violate the lawbook, then you are criminal. Similarly, what Krsna says, that is recorded in the sastra, especially in the Bhagavad-gita. So you act what is said in the Bhagavad-gita; then you remain free from all sinful reaction. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko ya karma-bandhanah. Yajnarthat means for Krsna. Whatever you do, that's all right. Otherwise you are become bound up by the reaction. Anyatra karma-bandhanah. Karma-bandhanah means you are bound up by the reaction. So therefore you have to act according to Krsna. That is Krsna conscious. If you act differently, then you are responsible.
Indian man (4): How would you know what to consume and what not, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: That is stated in the sastra. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Patram means vegetable, leaves; puspam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasadam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Krsna, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible. Just like a soldier. He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man. I am going to be hanged?" That is law. You cannot do anything on your own account, sense gratification. Then you are responsible. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'ya karma-bandhanah. Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gita very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying -- but according to Krsna's direction. Then it is Krsna conscious life and perfect life. And as soon as you do anything whimsically, at your will, then you are responsible. Krsna or His representative. Krsna is giving instruction, and His representative is explaining. In both ways Krsna is helping. So even so much facility being offered to you, if you don't take advantage, then you are committing suicide. Atmaha. Atmaha. Just like the sea is now calm and quiet. If you want to go somewhere, take advantage of it. And if you start your boat while it is cyclone, then you'll be drowned. So Krsna has left the book of instruction, Bhagavad-gita. It is favorable condition. And the spiritual master is the captain, and you take advantage. Your, this human body is a good boat. So good boat, favorable condition, good captain -- take advantage of crossing this ocean. Otherwise you are committing suicide. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult to cross over this ocean of nescience, but these are the favorable conditions. One should take advantage of these favorable conditions and cross over this ocean of nescience.
Devotee (5): Many people, they don't want to accept a captain. They want to go all alone.
Prabhupada: Let them be drowned. Who can check them? If they do not accept good captain, let them be drowned. There is no regret for them. Let them go to hell. They are going, actually. For their dog's obstinacy they are going to hell. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. This is stated. Because they cannot control their senses they are going to hell.
Indian man (4): Swamiji, is there any hell, or rather this is hell...?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why not? Why not?
Indian man (4): Above the world or in the world?
Prabhupada: Huh? You know everything, where, what is where? Do you know? Then why do you ask this question? There is. There is. There is planet, hellish planet.
Indian man (4): I don't know, I have thought about this, that the hell of the pradas(?) exists only in this world itself.
Prabhupada: Because you are the frog of the well. The frog of the well thinks, "This well is everything." And if you say, "There is Atlantic Ocean," he cannot imagine, the frog of the well. You know frog of the well?
Indian man (4): Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: A three-feet well, and a frog is there and he is thinking, "This is everything." And some friend comes and informs, "Oh, I have seen very big water, Atlantic." He simply imagines, "Oh? It's big? How much big? One feet more? All right, two feet. All right, three feet," like that. So the frogs in the well, they cannot understand. You should be not a frog in the well; you should be liberal to hear from the authorities, Vedas. Then you will understand. And if you remain a frog in the well... All these rascal scientists, they are all frog in the well. They have got little calculation of this planet, and they have no information of... There are so many millions of planets. What do they know? They cannot, could not study even this moon planet. Wrongly study. The moon planet is above the sun planet, 1,000,600,000 miles above. What do they know? They are thinking the moon planet is in between the earth and the... So the all wrong calculation.
Indian man (4): Swamiji, it has been said just as we act... We take birth according to our action. So if we have done something we must take birth according to the law of God.
Prabhupada: You must take birth. That is a fact. You cannot avoid it. But according to your karma you have to take birth.
Indian man (4): This means that you pay what you have wrote. Yes, eh? Therefore do you think that...
Prabhupada: Suppose when your, this shirt is torn, you have to purchase one shirt. Now, that shirt you have to purchase according to your price. If you have good price, then you get a good shirt. If you have no money, then you get a bad shirt. That's all.
Indian man (4): I wanted to say this, Swamiji, that hell also is situated in this world itself, because where do you think that we can pay our debt?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (4): The sin, the debt of our sin. Where do you think that we pay it? In the hell, which is not...
Prabhupada: Hell is the place for your punishment.
Indian man (4): Therefore it is on the earth itself.
Prabhupada: Why earth?
Indian man (4): In the planet earth, no?
Prabhupada: No. It can be...
Indian man (4): In any planets?
Prabhupada: ...many millions miles away.
Indian man (4): But it is not locate... Only hell is located in one place or a prada(?) is located in another place? Do you think so, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. There are different planets.
Indian man (4): There are many people who suffer in this world itself.
Prabhupada: So they are first of all trained up in that hellish planet and then they come here to suffer the same standard of life.
Indian man (4): When our soul gets out from our body, it goes to the hell or...
Prabhupada: Hellish planet.
Indian: ...hemisphere or it take birth immediately afterwards?
Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are sinful, they do not take immediately birth. They first of all trained up in the hellish planet how to suffer to become accustomed and then they are taken birth, then suffer. Just like you pass I.A.S. Then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are first of all transferred to the universe where Krsna is now present, and there you become accustomed. Then you go to real Vrndavana.
Indian man (4): Therefore, after our death...
Prabhupada: Every arrangement by God is perfect. Purnam. Purnam adah purnam idam purnat purnam.. [Isopanisad, Invocation]. Whatever is created by God, that is perfect.
Pusta Krsna: All the associates of Lord Caitanya also were in the same position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Liberated souls. Does Lord Caitanya always appear just after Krsna?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Pusta Krsna: In every universe.
Prabhupada: Hm. [break] All questions are answered or not yet? Make it clear.
Indian: Yes. I am thinking about it.
Prabhupada: [break] ...the science of Krsna consciousness and educate your men on this island and be happy. There is good potency for this island.
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Don't be misled by the misleaders.
Cyavana: There are many of them here also.
Prabhupada: [break] ...here in the understanding and help your people. That is good service.
Devotee (6): Srila Prabhupada, I was asked a question by a man. He asked that Lord Siva... Lord Ramacandra was praying to Lord Siva in the Ramayana, and so he's taking Lord Siva as being God. And we didn't have a clear answer to him.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee (6): Could you just instruct us on this matter, why...
Prabhupada: Lord Ramacandra worshiped His devotees. Just like sometimes Krsna worships Radharani and touched His feet..., Her feet. That does not mean that Krsna... Just like Krsna was tolerating ear pulling by mother Yasoda. That does not mean that mother Yasoda is the Supreme. Hm? Krsna was carrying the wooden shoes of Nanda Maharaja. So that does not mean Nanda Maharaja is greater than Krsna. It is Krsna's pleasure. Just like sometimes a father takes the son on the shoulder, carries. Does it mean the father is inferior than the son? So this is third-class man's conclusion. They do not know what is Krsna, what is Rama. Krsna says that aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. So He is the origin of Lord Siva. So how Siva can be the Supreme? We have to consult sastra. Krsna does not say that Siva is Supreme. So if a third-class man says Siva is Supreme, we have to accept it? We are preaching Krsna consciousness. Whatever Krsna says, that is Supreme, not a third-class man's version. Is it clear? Yes. We should not take a third-class, fourth-class man's version. We should take from the sastra.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, Siva is not another name of God?
Prabhupada: Yes. Siva is next to God. Just like yogurt, dahi. You know dahi? What is this dahi? Milk. But it is not milk. Dahi is not anything but milk, but it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Siva is nothing but Visnu, but it is not Visnu. Is it clear now? You can say, "Well, dahi is nothing but milk." Yes. But it is not milk. If instead of milk you take dahi, the result will be different. And if you take milk instead of dahi, that is..., that will be different, although the milk and dahi is the same thing, same ingredients. So you have to understand in that way. Lord Siva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Everyone is nondifferent from Supreme Lord, but he's still different. This is the perfect philosophy, acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, in all the temples in Mauritius, the supreme deity...
Prabhupada: Supreme Deity is Visnu.
Indian man (7): But we consider Lord Siva to be the supreme deity because we...
Prabhupada: But that is your lack of knowledge. I have already explained that, that yogurt is not different from milk. It is milk but still, it is not milk. You have to understand like that. Lord Siva is not different from Visnu, but he's still not Visnu.
Indian man (7): No, but do we offer the prayer first to Siva...?
Prabhupada: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Siva is also called Mahadeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Siva... We also worship Siva. It is not that we disrespect Siva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Siva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swamiji...
Prabhupada: Difference I have already explained. You cannot understand?
Indian man (7): No, no, we pray Siva first and then we go to pray Krsna.
Prabhupada: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Siva and what is Visnu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Siva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh. He is our spiritual master. He is Vaisnava. Why not offer first respect to him? But if you take Lord Siva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Siva is Vaisnava. He is the greatest devotee. He is the number-one demigod, and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that.
Devotee (6): Also one other question came up from this man.
Prabhupada: A man may ask so many nonsense. A man is that, imperfect man. Why you bother about that? Man is imperfect. You have to take conclusion from the sastra. A man may say anything nonsense. What we have got to do with him? He is a man, after all, imperfect man. So what is the value of his statement?
Indian man (7): So he's a man and he's imperfect that he asks questions from you... No, Swamiji.
Prabhupada: No. If he submissively asks to know, then we can explain. If he challenges, then he should be avoided. He's a rascal. He does not know what is what.
Brahmananda: Yesterday at that meeting they were challenging.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: Some of the men yesterday...
Prabhupada: So I replied in that way, yes, that "Why you put these ridiculous questions?"
Cyavana: Yes. Before he asked it.
Harikesa: That's what he could not understand, that you knew he was a... (laughter)
Prabhupada: The other man I said, "Why do you bring India? Never... Krsna never said, 'yada yada hi Hindu dharmasya glanir...' (laughter) Nonsense, what is this? Dharmasya glanir bhavati. Why do you bring 'Hindu dharma,' India?" That is their imperfectness of knowedge. We are not talking of Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, this dharma. We are talking of what is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the law given by God. You should know what is God, what is that law. That is religion.
Devotee (6): They all think we are propagating Hindusim because we're wearing dhoti...
Prabhupada: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated.
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Krsna said that there should be four divisions, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13], He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Krsna does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.
Pusta Krsna: It's in the American Constitution that all men are created equally.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real idea!
Pusta Krsna: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity."
Prabhupada: Yes. You can become a brahmana. Equal oppor... We are giving. Any man, he may be candala but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brahmana." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a candala family. You cannot become brahmana." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. [break] ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.
Pusta Krsna: It has been misrepresented.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brahmana can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this maya, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13] -- brahmana can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brahmana can be prepared..., brahmana is manufactured in India and the son of a brahmana is a brahmana.
Pusta Krsna: This is propagated by the brahmanas themselves, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, this is the current idea. [break] ...culture is meant for everyone... (end)
Cyavana: What about Bali? There are also many...
Prabhupada: Bali, there are practically Hindus. Yes. Everywhere. The soul is pure. They have been made impure by misleading.
Cyavana: All the outside influences are also here trying to make propaganda.
Prabhupada: Just like here, this is maya influence. These things should be stopped.
Cyavana: The Chinese come and make propaganda. The Russians come and make propaganda. The Americans come and make propaganda. They become confused what to do.
Prabhupada: The climate is nice. There is good potential for producing food, keeping cows. Everything nice.
Devotee: It is all volcanic. The soil here is all from volcano, volcanic soil, very rich.
Prabhupada: Oh? Volcanic or not volcanic, purnam idam [Isopanisad, Invocation]. When it is created by Lord, it is complete. You are originally from India? No.
Indian boy (2): No, Mauritius.
Indian boy (1): Our father from India.
Prabhupada: All of you? Bihar? No.
Indian boy (1): Bihar, yes, Bihar.
Prabhupada: [break] ...is also known as Magadha. Magadha. That is the... Candragupta and others, they were reigning in Bihar, emperor of India. Jarasandha also belonged to Bihar. [ ...a great scientist?
Cyavana: Yes, I studied.
Prabhupada: How this sand is made?
Cyavana: From the rocks it is... They call it weathering. The weather makes it ground up from the rocks. This is their theory.
Prabhupada: No.
Pusta Krsna: Isn't it shells from the animals?
Cyavana: Some. Some from rocks, coral.
Prabhupada: It is made from salt. It is called sodium silicate. (laughter)
Cyavana: They say this is combination of shells, coral, and rocks, ground up.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Pusta Krsna: But if it's salt, Prabhupada, our experience of salt is generally that it dissolves in water, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Silicate there is.
Indian boy (2): Salt and silicate.
Prabhupada: You know something of science?
Indian boy (2): Some.
Prabhupada: It is melted in fire and glass is made.
Cyavana: It becomes clear.
Prabhupada: No, that you have to add chemicals.
Cyavana: Oh. [break]
Prabhupada: Hawaii, on the beach side, there are many, many coconut, eh?
Harikesa: Hm.
Cyavana: Many of them have been ripped up by the cyclone, pine trees and coconut trees.
Prabhupada: In Hawaii there is no cyclone, I think. Hm?
Harikesa: No.
Prabhupada: Why?
Harikesa: They have a volcano on one island. There is one volcano that goes every twelve years.
Prabhupada: Here there is any volcano, on this island?
Cyavana: Nothing left.
Indian boy (2): Only once. Once we had. The island has been created by a volcano itself. And then afterwards, they have no volcano. There are craters.
Cyavana: [break] ...volcano? There was a volcano here?
Indian boy (2): Yes.
Cyavana: When? Huh?
Indian boy (2): A crater, it...
Indian man (3): We are not so sure.
Cyavana: Recently it came up?
Indian man (3): No, we are not so sure because before human settlement in Mauritius.
Indian boy (2): No, but it is... [break] ...please tell us about the creation of the earth.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian boy (2): Creation, how... About the creation. I have read it from Bible too, about Adam and Eve. Do you think that it's true?
Prabhupada: What is the idea of Adam?
Indian boy (2): God has created him.
Prabhupada: So the same process is mentioned in Vedas. God created Brahma, and he created this universe.
Indian boy (2): All which we can see on the earth have been created by...
Prabhupada: Brahma.
Indian boy (2): Brahma. Who is Brahma?
Prabhupada: Brahma is the first creature in the universe, created by God. He came from the navel.
Indian boy (2): Therefore, by himself he could create everything, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Who?
Indian boy (2): Brahma himself? He is only one...
Prabhupada: Yes. He was empowered.
Indian boy (2): He was only one person.
Prabhupada: Empowered by God. God created Brahma, and he was empowered to create the universe.
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a female and male?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian boy (2): There should not have been two people, a male and a female, to create everything?
Prabhupada: Yes, male and female.
Indian boy (2): Then, apart from Brahma, there would have been something else.
Prabhupada: No, Brahma created male and female.
Indian boy (2): Oh, he himself created it from...?
Prabhupada: From his ear, from his eyes, from his..., like that. From many parts of his body.
Indian man (3): Swamiji, there is something quite confusing.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): Lord Krsna created Lord Visnu, and Lord Visnu in His turn created Lord Brahma. So...
Prabhupada: Not created, expanded. Just like one candle is burning, and you lit up another candle. So this candle is not created, it is simply power transfer. Expansion. You can call it expansion. Diparcir eva hi dasantaram abhyupetya [Bs. 5.46]. Expansion of the light. This is, contains iodine, this ship. Iodine. That ship is going or coming?
Cyavana: Going. But he's sitting.
Prabhupada: Oh, it is standing.
Cyavana: It's sitting, yes.
Indian boy (2): Swamiji, do you think that Bible, about the Adam, Adam is Brahma? It has been copied from the Indian philosophy to put it there in different name?
Prabhupada: From historical point of view it is copied because Vedas are created by Brahma long, long, many millions, millions of years, and Bible is created two thousand years. So we have to take the original. All religious system of the world, they are taken from Vedas, from different parts. Therefore they are not complete. The age of Bible is not more than two thousand years. The age of Veda you cannot calculate, millions and millions of years.
Pusta Krsna: Why is it, Prabhupada, that in earlier parts of the Kali-yuga no one like yourself came throughout the rest of the world and preached Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: Huh? Preached? Caitanya Mahaprabhu preached. His descendant preached. Why do you say no one preached?
Pusta Krsna: But throughout the rest of the world, places like Japan and Australia...
Prabhupada: Your calculation of the world. If it is preached anywhere, that is preached on the world. It was not spread, you can say, but it was preached.
Cyavana: The seed was planted.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Harikesa: They were saving it for you.
Prabhupada: For you also.
Pusta Krsna: I think they had their hands full with India. They had their hands full with India, all of the preachers.
Prabhupada: Yes. What they are collecting?
Harikesa: Crabs, I think. Crabs.
Indian man (4): Swamiji? It is prohibited to consume, consume flesh, meat. It's because there is soul in the body and if we kill it, therefore we are doing a sin. I think it's because that we can't consume meat according to the Vedic literature. But what about plants, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Plants also, you... They are also killed. They are also killed. But this is... Plants are killed by the order of Krsna. Therefore you are not responsible.
Indian man (4): Therefore, if we say that we can kill some animal by the order of Krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes, then you are not responsible. Suppose I kill one snake by the stick. The stick is not responsible; I am responsible.
Indian man (4): When do you think that you'd know that Krsna is responsible and not our...
Prabhupada: You learn from the sastra. You learn from Bhagavad-gita what Krsna says and do it. Then you are not responsible for anything. Just like there is lawbook. If you act... (aside:) Don't keep so near. ...act according to lawbook, then you are not criminal. If you violate the lawbook, then you are criminal. Similarly, what Krsna says, that is recorded in the sastra, especially in the Bhagavad-gita. So you act what is said in the Bhagavad-gita; then you remain free from all sinful reaction. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko ya karma-bandhanah. Yajnarthat means for Krsna. Whatever you do, that's all right. Otherwise you are become bound up by the reaction. Anyatra karma-bandhanah. Karma-bandhanah means you are bound up by the reaction. So therefore you have to act according to Krsna. That is Krsna conscious. If you act differently, then you are responsible.
Indian man (4): How would you know what to consume and what not, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: That is stated in the sastra. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Patram means vegetable, leaves; puspam, flower. In this way, whatever He says, you collect and offer to Him and take prasadam. Then you are not responsible. And if you collect for yourself even patram without offering to Krsna, if you take, you are responsible for killing. It doesn't matter whether you kill a big animal or a small plant. You are responsible. Just like a soldier. He kills hundreds and thousands of men and he is given gold medal. And as soon as he kills one man for his sense gratification he is hanged. Eh? Is it not? He can say, "I have killed so many men. At that time I was not hanged. I was given gold medal. How is that? (laughter) I have killed only one man. I am going to be hanged?" That is law. You cannot do anything on your own account, sense gratification. Then you are responsible. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'ya karma-bandhanah. Everything is stated. Read Bhagavad-gita very thoroughly and try to understand. Then everything will be clear, how to live, how to organize society. We have to live. The same thing: we are also working, we are also eating, we are sleeping, we are also marrying -- but according to Krsna's direction. Then it is Krsna conscious life and perfect life. And as soon as you do anything whimsically, at your will, then you are responsible. Krsna or His representative. Krsna is giving instruction, and His representative is explaining. In both ways Krsna is helping. So even so much facility being offered to you, if you don't take advantage, then you are committing suicide. Atmaha. Atmaha. Just like the sea is now calm and quiet. If you want to go somewhere, take advantage of it. And if you start your boat while it is cyclone, then you'll be drowned. So Krsna has left the book of instruction, Bhagavad-gita. It is favorable condition. And the spiritual master is the captain, and you take advantage. Your, this human body is a good boat. So good boat, favorable condition, good captain -- take advantage of crossing this ocean. Otherwise you are committing suicide. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. It is very difficult to cross over this ocean of nescience, but these are the favorable conditions. One should take advantage of these favorable conditions and cross over this ocean of nescience.
Devotee (5): Many people, they don't want to accept a captain. They want to go all alone.
Prabhupada: Let them be drowned. Who can check them? If they do not accept good captain, let them be drowned. There is no regret for them. Let them go to hell. They are going, actually. For their dog's obstinacy they are going to hell. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. This is stated. Because they cannot control their senses they are going to hell.
Indian man (4): Swamiji, is there any hell, or rather this is hell...?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why not? Why not?
Indian man (4): Above the world or in the world?
Prabhupada: Huh? You know everything, where, what is where? Do you know? Then why do you ask this question? There is. There is. There is planet, hellish planet.
Indian man (4): I don't know, I have thought about this, that the hell of the pradas(?) exists only in this world itself.
Prabhupada: Because you are the frog of the well. The frog of the well thinks, "This well is everything." And if you say, "There is Atlantic Ocean," he cannot imagine, the frog of the well. You know frog of the well?
Indian man (4): Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: A three-feet well, and a frog is there and he is thinking, "This is everything." And some friend comes and informs, "Oh, I have seen very big water, Atlantic." He simply imagines, "Oh? It's big? How much big? One feet more? All right, two feet. All right, three feet," like that. So the frogs in the well, they cannot understand. You should be not a frog in the well; you should be liberal to hear from the authorities, Vedas. Then you will understand. And if you remain a frog in the well... All these rascal scientists, they are all frog in the well. They have got little calculation of this planet, and they have no information of... There are so many millions of planets. What do they know? They cannot, could not study even this moon planet. Wrongly study. The moon planet is above the sun planet, 1,000,600,000 miles above. What do they know? They are thinking the moon planet is in between the earth and the... So the all wrong calculation.
Indian man (4): Swamiji, it has been said just as we act... We take birth according to our action. So if we have done something we must take birth according to the law of God.
Prabhupada: You must take birth. That is a fact. You cannot avoid it. But according to your karma you have to take birth.
Indian man (4): This means that you pay what you have wrote. Yes, eh? Therefore do you think that...
Prabhupada: Suppose when your, this shirt is torn, you have to purchase one shirt. Now, that shirt you have to purchase according to your price. If you have good price, then you get a good shirt. If you have no money, then you get a bad shirt. That's all.
Indian man (4): I wanted to say this, Swamiji, that hell also is situated in this world itself, because where do you think that we can pay our debt?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (4): The sin, the debt of our sin. Where do you think that we pay it? In the hell, which is not...
Prabhupada: Hell is the place for your punishment.
Indian man (4): Therefore it is on the earth itself.
Prabhupada: Why earth?
Indian man (4): In the planet earth, no?
Prabhupada: No. It can be...
Indian man (4): In any planets?
Prabhupada: ...many millions miles away.
Indian man (4): But it is not locate... Only hell is located in one place or a prada(?) is located in another place? Do you think so, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. There are different planets.
Indian man (4): There are many people who suffer in this world itself.
Prabhupada: So they are first of all trained up in that hellish planet and then they come here to suffer the same standard of life.
Indian man (4): When our soul gets out from our body, it goes to the hell or...
Prabhupada: Hellish planet.
Indian: ...hemisphere or it take birth immediately afterwards?
Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are sinful, they do not take immediately birth. They first of all trained up in the hellish planet how to suffer to become accustomed and then they are taken birth, then suffer. Just like you pass I.A.S. Then you become an assistant to the magistrate. You learn. Then you are posted as magistrate. Even if you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead, you are first of all transferred to the universe where Krsna is now present, and there you become accustomed. Then you go to real Vrndavana.
Indian man (4): Therefore, after our death...
Prabhupada: Every arrangement by God is perfect. Purnam. Purnam adah purnam idam purnat purnam.. [Isopanisad, Invocation]. Whatever is created by God, that is perfect.
Pusta Krsna: All the associates of Lord Caitanya also were in the same position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Liberated souls. Does Lord Caitanya always appear just after Krsna?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Pusta Krsna: In every universe.
Prabhupada: Hm. [break] All questions are answered or not yet? Make it clear.
Indian: Yes. I am thinking about it.
Prabhupada: [break] ...the science of Krsna consciousness and educate your men on this island and be happy. There is good potency for this island.
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Don't be misled by the misleaders.
Cyavana: There are many of them here also.
Prabhupada: [break] ...here in the understanding and help your people. That is good service.
Devotee (6): Srila Prabhupada, I was asked a question by a man. He asked that Lord Siva... Lord Ramacandra was praying to Lord Siva in the Ramayana, and so he's taking Lord Siva as being God. And we didn't have a clear answer to him.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee (6): Could you just instruct us on this matter, why...
Prabhupada: Lord Ramacandra worshiped His devotees. Just like sometimes Krsna worships Radharani and touched His feet..., Her feet. That does not mean that Krsna... Just like Krsna was tolerating ear pulling by mother Yasoda. That does not mean that mother Yasoda is the Supreme. Hm? Krsna was carrying the wooden shoes of Nanda Maharaja. So that does not mean Nanda Maharaja is greater than Krsna. It is Krsna's pleasure. Just like sometimes a father takes the son on the shoulder, carries. Does it mean the father is inferior than the son? So this is third-class man's conclusion. They do not know what is Krsna, what is Rama. Krsna says that aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. So He is the origin of Lord Siva. So how Siva can be the Supreme? We have to consult sastra. Krsna does not say that Siva is Supreme. So if a third-class man says Siva is Supreme, we have to accept it? We are preaching Krsna consciousness. Whatever Krsna says, that is Supreme, not a third-class man's version. Is it clear? Yes. We should not take a third-class, fourth-class man's version. We should take from the sastra.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, Siva is not another name of God?
Prabhupada: Yes. Siva is next to God. Just like yogurt, dahi. You know dahi? What is this dahi? Milk. But it is not milk. Dahi is not anything but milk, but it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Siva is nothing but Visnu, but it is not Visnu. Is it clear now? You can say, "Well, dahi is nothing but milk." Yes. But it is not milk. If instead of milk you take dahi, the result will be different. And if you take milk instead of dahi, that is..., that will be different, although the milk and dahi is the same thing, same ingredients. So you have to understand in that way. Lord Siva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord. Everyone is nondifferent from Supreme Lord, but he's still different. This is the perfect philosophy, acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different.
Indian man (7): Swamiji, in all the temples in Mauritius, the supreme deity...
Prabhupada: Supreme Deity is Visnu.
Indian man (7): But we consider Lord Siva to be the supreme deity because we...
Prabhupada: But that is your lack of knowledge. I have already explained that, that yogurt is not different from milk. It is milk but still, it is not milk. You have to understand like that. Lord Siva is not different from Visnu, but he's still not Visnu.
Indian man (7): No, but do we offer the prayer first to Siva...?
Prabhupada: That you do. There is no harm. Lord Siva is also called Mahadeva. Amongst the demigods, he is the chief. So if you worship Lord Siva... We also worship Siva. It is not that we disrespect Siva. We offer our utmost respect to Lord Siva. But that does not mean that he is the Supreme Lord.
Indian man (7): The difference that is there, Swamiji...
Prabhupada: Difference I have already explained. You cannot understand?
Indian man (7): No, no, we pray Siva first and then we go to pray Krsna.
Prabhupada: So that you do. There is no harm. There is no harm. But you should understand what is Siva and what is Visnu. If you offer first prayer to Lord Siva, there is no harm. It is good. He is... Vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh. He is our spiritual master. He is Vaisnava. Why not offer first respect to him? But if you take Lord Siva as the Supreme, that is insult. You are giving me respect as spiritual master, but if you give me overestimation, that "You are the king of the whole world," that is insult. That is insult. That is not prayer. If you offer me prayer as I am befitting, then it is all right. But if you give me prayer for which I am not befitting, that is insult. That is insult. So you must know what is the position of... Lord Siva is Vaisnava. He is the greatest devotee. He is the number-one demigod, and everything is all right. But if you say that he is the Supreme, then he will feel insulted, that "What is this nonsense saying?" So don't insult him in that way. That will go against your credit. He doesn't like that.
Devotee (6): Also one other question came up from this man.
Prabhupada: A man may ask so many nonsense. A man is that, imperfect man. Why you bother about that? Man is imperfect. You have to take conclusion from the sastra. A man may say anything nonsense. What we have got to do with him? He is a man, after all, imperfect man. So what is the value of his statement?
Indian man (7): So he's a man and he's imperfect that he asks questions from you... No, Swamiji.
Prabhupada: No. If he submissively asks to know, then we can explain. If he challenges, then he should be avoided. He's a rascal. He does not know what is what.
Brahmananda: Yesterday at that meeting they were challenging.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Brahmananda: Some of the men yesterday...
Prabhupada: So I replied in that way, yes, that "Why you put these ridiculous questions?"
Cyavana: Yes. Before he asked it.
Harikesa: That's what he could not understand, that you knew he was a... (laughter)
Prabhupada: The other man I said, "Why do you bring India? Never... Krsna never said, 'yada yada hi Hindu dharmasya glanir...' (laughter) Nonsense, what is this? Dharmasya glanir bhavati. Why do you bring 'Hindu dharma,' India?" That is their imperfectness of knowedge. We are not talking of Hindu dharma, Muslim dharma, this dharma. We are talking of what is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the law given by God. You should know what is God, what is that law. That is religion.
Devotee (6): They all think we are propagating Hindusim because we're wearing dhoti...
Prabhupada: They are thinking. They are rascals. They are thinking like that. Therefore I say they are imperfect. They are imperfectly thinking. So... So there were many Muslims, and the Christian, that Scotland man, he appreciated.
Cyavana: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we do not say anything about any particular section. We are speaking about God. God does not belong to any section. When Krsna said that there should be four divisions, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13], He does not say that these divisions should be in the Hindu society or in India. He never says so. So why they take it as Hindu? Krsna does not say that it is meant for the Hindus, for India. If God says that "I have created the sun," does it mean sun is created for India, not for this island? So these are foolishness. Whatever is spoken by God, that is meant for everyone, all over the universe. That is real understanding.
Pusta Krsna: It's in the American Constitution that all men are created equally.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real idea!
Pusta Krsna: So they complain that "If all men are created equally, then each man will have equal opportunity."
Prabhupada: Yes. You can become a brahmana. Equal oppor... We are giving. Any man, he may be candala but we give them opportunity: "Come on, you become a brahmana." We don't deny: "Oh, you are coming from a candala family. You cannot become brahmana." No. We don't say that. We give equal opportunity. [break] ...is that before this movement, really Vedic culture was never broadcast. Therefore they are finding somewhere contradiction, something astonishing. But Vedic culture is meant for the whole world.
Pusta Krsna: It has been misrepresented.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...the other day, before Mr. Nanda, that how brahmana can be from any family. He did not know. No rascal informed him before me. Therefore he was a little surprised. He was also mixed with Anandamaya, this maya, that... And nobody informed him. He was kept in darkness. That was the first time that he could understand that catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13] -- brahmana can be prepared from anywhere. The whole India is under the impression that brahmana can be prepared..., brahmana is manufactured in India and the son of a brahmana is a brahmana.
Pusta Krsna: This is propagated by the brahmanas themselves, isn't it?
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, this is the current idea. [break] ...culture is meant for everyone... (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- October 5, 1975, Mauritius
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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