Bombay, November 10, 1975
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Prabhupada: Deva-nagari. In the
heavenly planets this language is... Heavenly planet the Sanskrit language is
used. Therefore it is called deva-nagari. Nagara means town, and deva means
demigod. This language is spoken in the heavenly planets, deva-nagara. But these
rascals, they think there is no living entity in any other planet except
this.Dr. Patel: Now the scientists have started saying...
Prabhupada: So what kind of scientists? They can change their opinion?
Dr. Patel: Then they are learning science.
Prabhupada: Rascals, say rascals. No, no, say... Learning means rascals.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Then we are all rascals.
Prabhupada: No. We are learning not from rascal; we are learning from the perfect. We may be rascals, but learning is not rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, "we," I said, not learning.
Prabhupada: If they change... "Now the scientists are thinking that" -- that means they are rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, but as a matter of fact, they understand this thing from years back, that there should be life on other planets than earth.
Prabhupada: Oh, many scientists say. I was known to one doctor Shaha in Allahabad. He said there are life. There is no question of disbelieving.
Brahmananda: There's that article that Hayagriva sent. The title of the article was, "New Discovery Creates Turmoil Amongst Scientists." Some scientists have now discovered some new sub-atomic particles. This has completely created turmoil amongst the scientists. All of their theories now are all...
Dr. Patel: Those are elementary particle, smaller than the element, present elementary particles.
Brahmananda: Yes. And they found a lot of them, so now they don't know what to think.
Dr. Patel: Because they are trying to search it out by different matter. This ancient... I mean, the Aryans tried to search it out by different matter, by yoga-vijnana.
Prabhupada: Sruti, from the Vedas. Veda-pramana. Sruti-pramana That is pramana. And nonsense, speculative, that is not pramana. That is speculation.
Brahmananda: They make some theory, and they become very complacent, that "Oh, now, this is it."
Prabhupada: "Now we are advanced." And next year, again advanced. Next year again advanced.
Dr. Patel: Real scientists don't think that. You must not believe that. Real scientist says, "This may be like this."
Prabhupada: But who...
Dr. Patel: It is their opinion.
Prabhupada: How to know who is real and who is...?
Dr. Patel: They are learning, after all, they are learning. They have not reached that. They are not yuktas. They are in the process of getting it.
Prabhupada: So why they say there is no God?
Dr. Patel: Who says that there is no God? Scientists don't say so. Some of them may be saying. Jagadish Chandra Bose did say so? He was a great scientist. Did he say so? No. If a few scientists say there is no God, that does not mean all the scientists. We are practically all of us, scientists, this architect, this Mr. Joshi, myself. We don't say there is no God. So, sir, don't say that scientists say.
Prabhupada: Because you have become Vaisnava, that is the...
Dr. Patel: Not... Even before that.
Prabhupada: Unless one becomes Vaisnava...
Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupada: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaisnava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the statement of Krsna. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So anyone who has not surrendered to Krsna, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Krsna. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvani karmani mayi sannyasya mat-parah.
Prabhupada: The mat-parah, this is mat-parah. Whatever Krsna says, we accept it. That is mat-parah. Mat-parah means whatever Krsna says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parah. And if I say, "I don't believe in Krsna, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parah.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupada: That is different.
Dr. Patel: But Krsna says through so many things. Krsna says. Through every leaf, every atom...
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: ...every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is.
Prabhupada: So everyone, our...
Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think.
Prabhupada: Scholars, they think like that, "Krsna is fictitious. This Bhagavad-gita was imagined," as if Krsna speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kuruksetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years.
Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme.
Prabhupada: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti-two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Krsna consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Krsna consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Tatastha-sakti. Tatastha... The jivas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti.
Dr. Patel: Tamas is dark and jyoti is light.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the jiva is between these two things. Therefore they are called tatastha, marginal. Sometimes you may be in darkness and sometimes you may be in jyoti. That is your position. So those who are accepting Krsna's word, they are in jyoti. And those who are interpreting Krsna in darkness, they are in darkness. Unless one has accepted Krsna as He is, he is in darkness. Therefore Krsna describing him, mudha, naradhama. That man might have been in the jyoti, but he is losing the chance. Therefore he is mudha, naradhama. He had the chance of understanding Krsna, but he is neglecting willfully. Therefore mudha naradhama. Men so much learned? mayayapahrta-jnanah: [Bg. 7.15] That learning has no meaning. That is another darkness. A person, without being learned, he is thinking, "I am learned." That is another darkness. That is another darkness.
Dr. Patel: Abhimanam
Prabhupada: Abhimanam. A person without knowledge, when he professes to be very learned and intelligent, he is more in darkness.
Dr. Patel: But really, sir, very learned people are very doubtful about their learning, to tell the truth. I had my professor who was a Nobel prize winner in London, and he used to be very doubtful, everything, what he said. "It may be or may not be. Who knows? God only knows," he used to say. So we cannot say that all are in darkness.
Prabhupada: So if God knows, take the words of God.
Dr. Patel: That he must be taking I mean, in his own way.
Prabhupada: In his own way he cannot take. (laughter) That is another di... That is another foolishness. You cannot take... No.
Dr. Patel: There are many ways by which to know God, is it not?
Prabhupada: You must take God's word as it is. That is jyoti. The same example can be... Just like the sunlight. Sunlight is light. You have to take it as it is. If you want to know wherefrom the light is coming, what is there in the sun, that is beyond your jurisdiction. But light is there. Take it. That's all.
Dr. Patel: The scientists will analyze the light and call it...
Prabhupada: Scientist is a rascal. How can he go to the sun? How can he go the sun and study sun? Therefore he's a rascal. You simply take: "Light is there from the sun." That's all. You go there or not go there, the light is there. You take it. That's all. It finishes the business. This jyoti is called also Brahman. Jyoti. So when you understood, want to understand wherefrom this jyoti or light is coming, Krsna is replying, brahmano aham pratistha. Bas, your knowledge is perfect. Why don't you take it? Krsna says, "I am the source of this light."
Dr. Patel: Everything.
Prabhupada: No, everything means this also. And particularly, particularly He says, brahmano aham pratistha. So this is the easiest method to get knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Now, brahmano pratisthaham, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. How the atma becomes brahma-bhutah?
Prabhupada: Take the words of Krsna; you become Brahman.
Dr. Patel: That means he becomes Brahman. He realizes himself as Brahman.
Prabhupada: No, no. Brahman he is, but the rascal, he is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." That is rascaldom. He is Brahman. By origin he is Brahman, but rascal, due to his rascaldom, he is thinking that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American." That is rascaldom. Otherwise he's Brahman. So when he gives up this wrong conception of life and accepts that "I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman," that is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Otherwise he is jiva-bhutah. (aside): Thank you. Jiva bhutah maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat: [Bg. 7.5] "These living entities, jiva bhutah, they are conducting the whole universal affairs." Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate. Without jiva what is the value? These buildings are constructed because the jivas have taken the material from the matter and done. So everything is like that. Why these trees are there? The jivas have taken the shape of this tree, and it looks beautiful. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam... Everything is like that. So that is jiva. So that jiva... In the material concept of life the tree is thinking, "I am tree," the dog is thinking, "I am dog," I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking something else. So this is jiva-bhuta. And when he understands that aham brahmasmi, that is brahma-bhuta. Simple thing. Ekatvam. Ekatvam...
Dr. Patel: Anupasyati.
Prabhupada: Anupasyati. That ekatvam, when he actually becomes brahma-bhutah -- we understand that all these living entities, we are part and parcel of God, panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18] -- that is ekatvam, that "We are all servants." But the rascals are thinking,"I am master."
Dr. Patel: Samah sarvesu bhutesu...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktim labhate.
Prabhupada: Samah sarvesu bhutesu means that every one of us, we are servant of God. That is ekatvam. Ekatvam anupasyati. Anu means always. Anu means following the authority. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] (Hindi) It is not that something, matter, becomes brahma-bhutah. No. He is Brahman.
Dr. Patel: He realizes that he is Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all.
Dr. Patel: He was not realizing it then.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He was realizing he was body.
Prabhupada: So long he thinks himself as the body, he is jiva-bhutah.
Dr. Patel: You said very well yesterday.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jiva-bhutah. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. They are thinking, "Indian, American, brahmana, sudra, man, dog, cat, tree." This is jiva-bhutah. And when he understands that "I am not these things, I am Brahman," that is brahma... Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu begins from this brahma-bhutah stage. His teaching is completely on the spiritual platform. Therefore people misunderstand us. Because we are speaking from the spiritual platform everything, they cannot understand. It requires practice. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8]. Hm? What is that?
Dr. Patel: Cetasa nanya-gamina, that you must have continuous fixing of your mind.
Prabhupada: No, that... No, I know that. But second line, abhyasa yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya gamina [Bg. 8.8], that "One can understand the param purusa."
Dr. Patel: Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina...
Prabhupada: Upaiti purusam param, like that. So this bhakti-yoga means abhyasa-yoga, practice.
Dr. Patel: Sir,
brahma bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Then he gets real bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He becomes real bhakta, when he realizes that he's soul and not body.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Till then he is not a bhakta.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning. Therefore Krsna, in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita, He says, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Because everyone is rascal, he is thinking, "I am this body." Arjuna was also thinking, "How shall I kill my other side, my brother, my nephews?" Bodily. Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand that "I am not this body; I am soul." That is the beginning. For so many years people are reading Bhagavad-gita, but still they are in bodily concept. That is the misfortune.
Dr. Patel: Mahamaya duratyaya.
Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. (dog barking) No, no, no, don't. Hare Krsna.
Indian man (1): Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Jaya. Jaya. [break]... concept of life means animals. So just see. In the whole world is going on, nationalism.
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya.
Prabhupada: What is this nationalism? We said, there is no such thing as nationalism in the Vedic literature, no such thing.
Yasomatinandana: Nationalism?
Prabhupada: Yes. Nowadays nationalism is very prominent, and we don't find this nationalism.
Dr. Patel: Now they are going to rationalism.
Prabhupada: Rationalism is required, not nationalism. No. This nationalism... The Americans and the Russians, they are enemies and friend only on this principle. Prahlada Maharaja was astonished, "What is this enemy and friend?" because he is maha-bhagavata. This is materialism. This is materialism. (aside:) Jaya. Why one should be treated as enemy and as friend? Everyone is servant of God. [break] He is going on at night also?
Devotee (2): No, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind.
Devotee (3): And steady intelligence, that is acquired by hearing? We can keep our intelligence steady by hearing?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): But as soon as we stop hearing then the intelligence...
Prabhupada: Mind is disturbed.
Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over.
Prabhupada: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmana daiva-netrena jantor dehopapatti [SB 3.31.1]. Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Krsna consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatantaratmana [Bg. 6.47].
Devotee (3): So the jiva is still higher than the intelligence.
Prabhupada: Hm? Yes.
Devotee (3): And if he is to control his intelligence by hearing...
Prabhupada: Hearing about Krsna.
Devotee (3): Hearing about Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): But if his desire is not steady. For instance, if he...
Prabhupada: If he hears about Krsna, everything will be done nicely. srnvatam sva-katha krsnah. Krsna will help. And that is natural position, to hear about Krsna, to act for Krsna, to think of Krsna. Then everything is all right. That is Krsna conscious. Therefore chanting of Hare Krsna is the easiest process and genuine, without any failure. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].
Devotee (3): When you say "genuine," that means that it works...
Prabhupada: That is real spiritual activity. (aside:) Take it.
Devotee (3): So while one is chanting, he is automatically Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Chanting means hearing Krsna, and that is Krsna conscious. And then acting. The more he chants, his dirty things in the heart becomes cleansed, and he acts for Krsna's service.
Devotee (3): So the perfection, then, is to chant constantly.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (3): The perfection of chanting is to be chanting twenty-four hours.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): Constantly.
Prabhupada: Kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. That is the injunction, sada. Sada means always.
Devotee (3): Well, if one is not able to do that in the beginning... For instance, if during twenty-four hours...
Prabhupada: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Krsna's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Krsna. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Krsna. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe krsna-sambandha. When it is connected with Krsna it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridasa Thakura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Krsna." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Krsna.
Yasomatinandana: Many people say... When we chant Hare Krsna they say, "We chant in our minds. You don't have to chant loudly. You don't have to show off. We chant in our minds. We're always thinking about Krsna."
Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.
Yasomatinandana: Even Dr. Patel when we sometimes tell him "Please chant."
Prabhupada: Dr. Patel is learning if he says. We haven't got to hear from Dr. Patel but from Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He says kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31], twenty-four hours' chanting.
Lokanatha: Is it possible to chant within one's mind?
Prabhupada: Chant means that your tongue must be engaged, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna..." That is chanting. Real chanting...
Brahmananda: Sevonmukhe...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jihvadau, yes. Chant means you must vibrate your tongue. That is chanting, Hare Krsna. It is never said, "You chant within the mind." Where it is said? These are their manufacture to avoid. That's all.
Yasomatinandana: Then, when we get into deep discussion, then they say, "Whatever I am working is for Krsna. Everything is Krsna." So ultimately they admit that actually it is not the person Krsna.
Prabhupada: No. In bhakti...
Yasomatinandana: But they are thinking themselves Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is not bhakti. Everything is going on for Krsna. That is fact. But that is not bhakti. Bhakti is different thing. Bhakti is anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Never says, "Whatever you do, it is everything is Krsna. Therefore it is all right." Never said. anukulyena krsnanusilanam. What Krsna accepts, that is bhakti. Krsna accepts... Everyone is thinking... That is not Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. That is Krsna conscious. So "Everything is Krsna," that is all right, but when you think particularly of Krsna, that is bhakti. Krsna...
Indian man (4): Now it may say everybody had.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (4): Because those people, even trees have gone...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian man (4): Krsna's (indistinct) to serve.
Prabhupada: Yes. They'll chant, such politician, "Jinna-bhai! Jhinna-bhai!" They will chant like that, (laughter) rascals. But as soon as you ask them, "Chant Hare Krsna," "No, it can be done within the mind." (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. For some "Jhinna-bhai," for a dead leader, "Jhinna-bhai," as if he will come to life. (laughter) You see, this nonsense is going on. And as soon as you, "Chant Hare Krsna," "We can do it within mind." Therefore they're all rascals, naradhama. [break] ...never do the right thing. Always commit mistake and suffer. [break] Guru-mukha-padma-vakya **. It is never said that "You can chant whatever you heard from all nonsense." Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya aikya, ara na kariha mane asa **. So repeatedly you are talking. [break]
Lokanatha: Prabhupada, why we have chosen this sixteen as a number to chant the rounds?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Lokanatha: Why not less or more?
Prabhupada: We have fixed up sixteen?
Lokanatha: We are chanting sixteen.
Prabhupada: No. We say "Minimum sixteen." Minimum.
Lokanatha: Why that sixteen minimum?
Prabhupada: If you can, sixteen thousand you can go. Sixteen rounds is the minimum. But if you are able to chant sixteen thousand rounds, that is welcome. We have got so much engagement. Still, we say, "We don't find engagement." This is our misfortune. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Haridasa Thakura was engaged in chanting and the prostitute came. She offered, "Let us enjoy." "Yes, let me finish. Let me finish this chanting." So much engagement, and still, we say, "No engagement." He refused to have sex with a beautiful young girl because he had engagement. "First of all let me finish my engagement," and we say we have no engagement. How unfortunate we are. [break] ...says, kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. Twenty-four-hours engagement He has given, and we see there is no engagement.
Lokanatha: Some devotees have fixed different number than sixteen. Some are chanting twenty minimum or twenty-five.
Prabhupada: Yes. It should be increased.
Lokanatha: Is it recommended for our...
Prabhupada: But don't decrease. Don't decrease; increase. Therefore one number is fixed. "At least this much I shall do." That is sixteen rounds.
Lokanatha: But you are recommending sixteen as a minimum, and some devotees are choosing twenty as a minimum.
Prabhupada: So who forbids? Who says that "Don't do it"?
Lokanatha: They can chant?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. But because you cannot do it, therefore we have fixed up this minimum. Sankhyata asankhyata Sankhyata means with vow, numerical strength. And asankhyata means there is no limit. [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...are higher than any other activities or they are on the same platform? Any activities in Krsna consciousness... Is chanting the most exalted or...?
Prabhupada: Everything is exalted. Therefore there are nine processes. sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23], so many. They are all exalted.
Yasomatinandana: So why is it recommended, chanting in this age particularly?
Prabhupada: Suppose if you have no temple, so you cannot perform arcana. So this is common, greatest common. It is not that because you have no temple, therefore your devotional service is stopped. There are other processes. You can do. Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Lokanatha: Prabhupada? If we chant more than sixteen rounds, so how can we know whether we are imitating Haridasa Thakura or following his footsteps?
Prabhupada: Imitation is also good. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura, that is also your great fortune, even if you imitate. [break] imitating, it does not mean you are condemned. Even if you imitate, that is also good. [break] If you have some other business and if you say, "Now I am imitating Haridasa Thakura, I cannot do it," that is very bad. "I am busy in imitating Haridasa Thakura." That is not good. That is very bad. [break]
Brahmananda: If the devotees are asked for service they say, "Oh, I have to chant."
Prabhupada: "I am imitating." Yes. "I am imitating Haridasa. This is my first business." That is very bad. (end)
Prabhupada: So what kind of scientists? They can change their opinion?
Dr. Patel: Then they are learning science.
Prabhupada: Rascals, say rascals. No, no, say... Learning means rascals.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) Then we are all rascals.
Prabhupada: No. We are learning not from rascal; we are learning from the perfect. We may be rascals, but learning is not rascal.
Dr. Patel: No, "we," I said, not learning.
Prabhupada: If they change... "Now the scientists are thinking that" -- that means they are rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, but as a matter of fact, they understand this thing from years back, that there should be life on other planets than earth.
Prabhupada: Oh, many scientists say. I was known to one doctor Shaha in Allahabad. He said there are life. There is no question of disbelieving.
Brahmananda: There's that article that Hayagriva sent. The title of the article was, "New Discovery Creates Turmoil Amongst Scientists." Some scientists have now discovered some new sub-atomic particles. This has completely created turmoil amongst the scientists. All of their theories now are all...
Dr. Patel: Those are elementary particle, smaller than the element, present elementary particles.
Brahmananda: Yes. And they found a lot of them, so now they don't know what to think.
Dr. Patel: Because they are trying to search it out by different matter. This ancient... I mean, the Aryans tried to search it out by different matter, by yoga-vijnana.
Prabhupada: Sruti, from the Vedas. Veda-pramana. Sruti-pramana That is pramana. And nonsense, speculative, that is not pramana. That is speculation.
Brahmananda: They make some theory, and they become very complacent, that "Oh, now, this is it."
Prabhupada: "Now we are advanced." And next year, again advanced. Next year again advanced.
Dr. Patel: Real scientists don't think that. You must not believe that. Real scientist says, "This may be like this."
Prabhupada: But who...
Dr. Patel: It is their opinion.
Prabhupada: How to know who is real and who is...?
Dr. Patel: They are learning, after all, they are learning. They have not reached that. They are not yuktas. They are in the process of getting it.
Prabhupada: So why they say there is no God?
Dr. Patel: Who says that there is no God? Scientists don't say so. Some of them may be saying. Jagadish Chandra Bose did say so? He was a great scientist. Did he say so? No. If a few scientists say there is no God, that does not mean all the scientists. We are practically all of us, scientists, this architect, this Mr. Joshi, myself. We don't say there is no God. So, sir, don't say that scientists say.
Prabhupada: Because you have become Vaisnava, that is the...
Dr. Patel: Not... Even before that.
Prabhupada: Unless one becomes Vaisnava...
Dr. Patel: A real scientist finds God's working in every cell, every atom, every molecule.
Prabhupada: No, no, our point is unless one has become Vaisnava, he remains a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is your saying.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the statement of Krsna. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So anyone who has not surrendered to Krsna, he is a fool, rascal. That' s all. This is the conclusion. We are fool, undoubtedly, but we take the words of Krsna. He is not fool.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but He says, ye tu sarvani karmani mayi sannyasya mat-parah.
Prabhupada: The mat-parah, this is mat-parah. Whatever Krsna says, we accept it. That is mat-parah. Mat-parah means whatever Krsna says, accept it. That's all. That is mat-parah. And if I say, "I don't believe in Krsna, whether He was existing," that is not mat-parah.
Dr. Patel: That is different.
Prabhupada: That is different.
Dr. Patel: But Krsna says through so many things. Krsna says. Through every leaf, every atom...
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: ...every molecule and every living cell, He says what He is.
Prabhupada: So everyone, our...
Dr. Patel: That is what the scientists think.
Prabhupada: Scholars, they think like that, "Krsna is fictitious. This Bhagavad-gita was imagined," as if Krsna speaking and Arjuna hearing, and there was no war as Kuruksetra. This is their reply. There was no five thousand years.
Dr. Patel: Suppose, sir, it may be like that, as they say, but this is an acme of the knowledge. That's all. Even though it may be fabricated, it is the acme.
Prabhupada: Acme of the knowledge you are taking, but you don't believe the source of knowledge. You are so acme of the knowledge. You don't believe in the source of the knowledge, so where is knowledge? That is darkness. Tama and jyoti-two things are there. This material world is tama, darkness, because here actually there is no Krsna consciousness. It is almost absent. And jyoti means there is Krsna consciousness. That we were discussing last night. Tatastha-sakti. Tatastha... The jivas, they are in the marginal position between tama and jyoti.
Dr. Patel: Tamas is dark and jyoti is light.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the jiva is between these two things. Therefore they are called tatastha, marginal. Sometimes you may be in darkness and sometimes you may be in jyoti. That is your position. So those who are accepting Krsna's word, they are in jyoti. And those who are interpreting Krsna in darkness, they are in darkness. Unless one has accepted Krsna as He is, he is in darkness. Therefore Krsna describing him, mudha, naradhama. That man might have been in the jyoti, but he is losing the chance. Therefore he is mudha, naradhama. He had the chance of understanding Krsna, but he is neglecting willfully. Therefore mudha naradhama. Men so much learned? mayayapahrta-jnanah: [Bg. 7.15] That learning has no meaning. That is another darkness. A person, without being learned, he is thinking, "I am learned." That is another darkness. That is another darkness.
Dr. Patel: Abhimanam
Prabhupada: Abhimanam. A person without knowledge, when he professes to be very learned and intelligent, he is more in darkness.
Dr. Patel: But really, sir, very learned people are very doubtful about their learning, to tell the truth. I had my professor who was a Nobel prize winner in London, and he used to be very doubtful, everything, what he said. "It may be or may not be. Who knows? God only knows," he used to say. So we cannot say that all are in darkness.
Prabhupada: So if God knows, take the words of God.
Dr. Patel: That he must be taking I mean, in his own way.
Prabhupada: In his own way he cannot take. (laughter) That is another di... That is another foolishness. You cannot take... No.
Dr. Patel: There are many ways by which to know God, is it not?
Prabhupada: You must take God's word as it is. That is jyoti. The same example can be... Just like the sunlight. Sunlight is light. You have to take it as it is. If you want to know wherefrom the light is coming, what is there in the sun, that is beyond your jurisdiction. But light is there. Take it. That's all.
Dr. Patel: The scientists will analyze the light and call it...
Prabhupada: Scientist is a rascal. How can he go to the sun? How can he go the sun and study sun? Therefore he's a rascal. You simply take: "Light is there from the sun." That's all. You go there or not go there, the light is there. You take it. That's all. It finishes the business. This jyoti is called also Brahman. Jyoti. So when you understood, want to understand wherefrom this jyoti or light is coming, Krsna is replying, brahmano aham pratistha. Bas, your knowledge is perfect. Why don't you take it? Krsna says, "I am the source of this light."
Dr. Patel: Everything.
Prabhupada: No, everything means this also. And particularly, particularly He says, brahmano aham pratistha. So this is the easiest method to get knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Now, brahmano pratisthaham, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. How the atma becomes brahma-bhutah?
Prabhupada: Take the words of Krsna; you become Brahman.
Dr. Patel: That means he becomes Brahman. He realizes himself as Brahman.
Prabhupada: No, no. Brahman he is, but the rascal, he is thinking, "I am American," "I am Indian." That is rascaldom. He is Brahman. By origin he is Brahman, but rascal, due to his rascaldom, he is thinking that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American." That is rascaldom. Otherwise he's Brahman. So when he gives up this wrong conception of life and accepts that "I am part and parcel of the Supreme Brahman," that is brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Otherwise he is jiva-bhutah. (aside): Thank you. Jiva bhutah maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat: [Bg. 7.5] "These living entities, jiva bhutah, they are conducting the whole universal affairs." Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate. Without jiva what is the value? These buildings are constructed because the jivas have taken the material from the matter and done. So everything is like that. Why these trees are there? The jivas have taken the shape of this tree, and it looks beautiful. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam... Everything is like that. So that is jiva. So that jiva... In the material concept of life the tree is thinking, "I am tree," the dog is thinking, "I am dog," I am thinking, "I am Indian," you are thinking something else. So this is jiva-bhuta. And when he understands that aham brahmasmi, that is brahma-bhuta. Simple thing. Ekatvam. Ekatvam...
Dr. Patel: Anupasyati.
Prabhupada: Anupasyati. That ekatvam, when he actually becomes brahma-bhutah -- we understand that all these living entities, we are part and parcel of God, panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18] -- that is ekatvam, that "We are all servants." But the rascals are thinking,"I am master."
Dr. Patel: Samah sarvesu bhutesu...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mad-bhaktim labhate.
Prabhupada: Samah sarvesu bhutesu means that every one of us, we are servant of God. That is ekatvam. Ekatvam anupasyati. Anu means always. Anu means following the authority. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] (Hindi) It is not that something, matter, becomes brahma-bhutah. No. He is Brahman.
Dr. Patel: He realizes that he is Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all.
Dr. Patel: He was not realizing it then.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He was realizing he was body.
Prabhupada: So long he thinks himself as the body, he is jiva-bhutah.
Dr. Patel: You said very well yesterday.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jiva-bhutah. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. They are thinking, "Indian, American, brahmana, sudra, man, dog, cat, tree." This is jiva-bhutah. And when he understands that "I am not these things, I am Brahman," that is brahma... Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu begins from this brahma-bhutah stage. His teaching is completely on the spiritual platform. Therefore people misunderstand us. Because we are speaking from the spiritual platform everything, they cannot understand. It requires practice. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8]. Hm? What is that?
Dr. Patel: Cetasa nanya-gamina, that you must have continuous fixing of your mind.
Prabhupada: No, that... No, I know that. But second line, abhyasa yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya gamina [Bg. 8.8], that "One can understand the param purusa."
Dr. Patel: Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina...
Prabhupada: Upaiti purusam param, like that. So this bhakti-yoga means abhyasa-yoga, practice.
Dr. Patel: Sir,
brahma bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Then he gets real bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: He becomes real bhakta, when he realizes that he's soul and not body.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Till then he is not a bhakta.
Prabhupada: That is the beginning. Therefore Krsna, in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita, He says, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Because everyone is rascal, he is thinking, "I am this body." Arjuna was also thinking, "How shall I kill my other side, my brother, my nephews?" Bodily. Therefore the beginning of spiritual education is to understand that "I am not this body; I am soul." That is the beginning. For so many years people are reading Bhagavad-gita, but still they are in bodily concept. That is the misfortune.
Dr. Patel: Mahamaya duratyaya.
Prabhupada: Yes. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. (dog barking) No, no, no, don't. Hare Krsna.
Indian man (1): Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Jaya. Jaya. [break]... concept of life means animals. So just see. In the whole world is going on, nationalism.
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61].
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya.
Prabhupada: What is this nationalism? We said, there is no such thing as nationalism in the Vedic literature, no such thing.
Yasomatinandana: Nationalism?
Prabhupada: Yes. Nowadays nationalism is very prominent, and we don't find this nationalism.
Dr. Patel: Now they are going to rationalism.
Prabhupada: Rationalism is required, not nationalism. No. This nationalism... The Americans and the Russians, they are enemies and friend only on this principle. Prahlada Maharaja was astonished, "What is this enemy and friend?" because he is maha-bhagavata. This is materialism. This is materialism. (aside:) Jaya. Why one should be treated as enemy and as friend? Everyone is servant of God. [break] He is going on at night also?
Devotee (2): No, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: Intelligence is above the mind. Intelligence controls the mind.
Devotee (3): And steady intelligence, that is acquired by hearing? We can keep our intelligence steady by hearing?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): But as soon as we stop hearing then the intelligence...
Prabhupada: Mind is disturbed.
Devotee (3): Then the mind will take over.
Prabhupada: Yes. If the mind is not controlled by intelligence, then it will disturb. Then the senses will be disturbed, agitated. Then you are bound up by karma. Unrestricted sense gratification means karma-bandhana, bound up by the laws of karma. And bound up by the laws of karma means repetition of birth and death in different species. Karmana daiva-netrena jantor dehopapatti [SB 3.31.1]. Different bodies means resultant action of karma. So if you want to save yourself from this resultant action of karma, then the first thing is to control the mind. That is yoga system, to control the mind. But one who has got intelligence, he takes to Krsna consciousness, and the mind is automatically controlled. Yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatantaratmana [Bg. 6.47].
Devotee (3): So the jiva is still higher than the intelligence.
Prabhupada: Hm? Yes.
Devotee (3): And if he is to control his intelligence by hearing...
Prabhupada: Hearing about Krsna.
Devotee (3): Hearing about Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): But if his desire is not steady. For instance, if he...
Prabhupada: If he hears about Krsna, everything will be done nicely. srnvatam sva-katha krsnah. Krsna will help. And that is natural position, to hear about Krsna, to act for Krsna, to think of Krsna. Then everything is all right. That is Krsna conscious. Therefore chanting of Hare Krsna is the easiest process and genuine, without any failure. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc. Antya 20.12].
Devotee (3): When you say "genuine," that means that it works...
Prabhupada: That is real spiritual activity. (aside:) Take it.
Devotee (3): So while one is chanting, he is automatically Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Chanting means hearing Krsna, and that is Krsna conscious. And then acting. The more he chants, his dirty things in the heart becomes cleansed, and he acts for Krsna's service.
Devotee (3): So the perfection, then, is to chant constantly.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (3): The perfection of chanting is to be chanting twenty-four hours.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): Constantly.
Prabhupada: Kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. That is the injunction, sada. Sada means always.
Devotee (3): Well, if one is not able to do that in the beginning... For instance, if during twenty-four hours...
Prabhupada: Therefore we are constructing temples. At least you will think, "We are constructing Krsna's temple." Because you are habituated to work, work for Krsna. Go to sell books. Print books. Type for Krsna. This is also the same thing. Because you are accustomed to all these things, so nirbandhe krsna-sambandha. When it is connected with Krsna it is as good as chanting. Therefore we are so much eager. Otherwise there is no need of temple; we can chant anywhere. But that stage is not so easy, like Haridasa Thakura we can sit down and chant anywhere. That is not possible. Then you'll sleep. Therefore these things are required. Everyone, we are working for this temple. Every one of us, we know that "This temple not for my sense gratification: This is for Krsna." So that is important. The police commissioner is thinking, "It is nuisance." Huh? Police commissioner is thinking it is nuisance. But we are not thinking it is nuisance. We are not so fool. The politicians, the police commissioner, they'll think of, "He is my enemy; he is my friend." That is their occupation. They'll never think of Krsna.
Yasomatinandana: Many people say... When we chant Hare Krsna they say, "We chant in our minds. You don't have to chant loudly. You don't have to show off. We chant in our minds. We're always thinking about Krsna."
Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.
Yasomatinandana: Even Dr. Patel when we sometimes tell him "Please chant."
Prabhupada: Dr. Patel is learning if he says. We haven't got to hear from Dr. Patel but from Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He says kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31], twenty-four hours' chanting.
Lokanatha: Is it possible to chant within one's mind?
Prabhupada: Chant means that your tongue must be engaged, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna..." That is chanting. Real chanting...
Brahmananda: Sevonmukhe...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jihvadau, yes. Chant means you must vibrate your tongue. That is chanting, Hare Krsna. It is never said, "You chant within the mind." Where it is said? These are their manufacture to avoid. That's all.
Yasomatinandana: Then, when we get into deep discussion, then they say, "Whatever I am working is for Krsna. Everything is Krsna." So ultimately they admit that actually it is not the person Krsna.
Prabhupada: No. In bhakti...
Yasomatinandana: But they are thinking themselves Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is not bhakti. Everything is going on for Krsna. That is fact. But that is not bhakti. Bhakti is different thing. Bhakti is anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Never says, "Whatever you do, it is everything is Krsna. Therefore it is all right." Never said. anukulyena krsnanusilanam. What Krsna accepts, that is bhakti. Krsna accepts... Everyone is thinking... That is not Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. That is Krsna conscious. So "Everything is Krsna," that is all right, but when you think particularly of Krsna, that is bhakti. Krsna...
Indian man (4): Now it may say everybody had.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (4): Because those people, even trees have gone...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian man (4): Krsna's (indistinct) to serve.
Prabhupada: Yes. They'll chant, such politician, "Jinna-bhai! Jhinna-bhai!" They will chant like that, (laughter) rascals. But as soon as you ask them, "Chant Hare Krsna," "No, it can be done within the mind." (laughter) Just see their rascaldom. For some "Jhinna-bhai," for a dead leader, "Jhinna-bhai," as if he will come to life. (laughter) You see, this nonsense is going on. And as soon as you, "Chant Hare Krsna," "We can do it within mind." Therefore they're all rascals, naradhama. [break] ...never do the right thing. Always commit mistake and suffer. [break] Guru-mukha-padma-vakya **. It is never said that "You can chant whatever you heard from all nonsense." Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya aikya, ara na kariha mane asa **. So repeatedly you are talking. [break]
Lokanatha: Prabhupada, why we have chosen this sixteen as a number to chant the rounds?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Lokanatha: Why not less or more?
Prabhupada: We have fixed up sixteen?
Lokanatha: We are chanting sixteen.
Prabhupada: No. We say "Minimum sixteen." Minimum.
Lokanatha: Why that sixteen minimum?
Prabhupada: If you can, sixteen thousand you can go. Sixteen rounds is the minimum. But if you are able to chant sixteen thousand rounds, that is welcome. We have got so much engagement. Still, we say, "We don't find engagement." This is our misfortune. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Haridasa Thakura was engaged in chanting and the prostitute came. She offered, "Let us enjoy." "Yes, let me finish. Let me finish this chanting." So much engagement, and still, we say, "No engagement." He refused to have sex with a beautiful young girl because he had engagement. "First of all let me finish my engagement," and we say we have no engagement. How unfortunate we are. [break] ...says, kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. Twenty-four-hours engagement He has given, and we see there is no engagement.
Lokanatha: Some devotees have fixed different number than sixteen. Some are chanting twenty minimum or twenty-five.
Prabhupada: Yes. It should be increased.
Lokanatha: Is it recommended for our...
Prabhupada: But don't decrease. Don't decrease; increase. Therefore one number is fixed. "At least this much I shall do." That is sixteen rounds.
Lokanatha: But you are recommending sixteen as a minimum, and some devotees are choosing twenty as a minimum.
Prabhupada: So who forbids? Who says that "Don't do it"?
Lokanatha: They can chant?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. But because you cannot do it, therefore we have fixed up this minimum. Sankhyata asankhyata Sankhyata means with vow, numerical strength. And asankhyata means there is no limit. [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...are higher than any other activities or they are on the same platform? Any activities in Krsna consciousness... Is chanting the most exalted or...?
Prabhupada: Everything is exalted. Therefore there are nine processes. sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23], so many. They are all exalted.
Yasomatinandana: So why is it recommended, chanting in this age particularly?
Prabhupada: Suppose if you have no temple, so you cannot perform arcana. So this is common, greatest common. It is not that because you have no temple, therefore your devotional service is stopped. There are other processes. You can do. Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Lokanatha: Prabhupada? If we chant more than sixteen rounds, so how can we know whether we are imitating Haridasa Thakura or following his footsteps?
Prabhupada: Imitation is also good. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura, that is also your great fortune, even if you imitate. [break] imitating, it does not mean you are condemned. Even if you imitate, that is also good. [break] If you have some other business and if you say, "Now I am imitating Haridasa Thakura, I cannot do it," that is very bad. "I am busy in imitating Haridasa Thakura." That is not good. That is very bad. [break]
Brahmananda: If the devotees are asked for service they say, "Oh, I have to chant."
Prabhupada: "I am imitating." Yes. "I am imitating Haridasa. This is my first business." That is very bad. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- November 10, 1975, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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