July 21, 1975
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Prabhupada: Oh. [break] Krsna dasa,
some scientists say that there is no life in the other planets, and some
scientists said there may be. So who is correct?Paramahamsa: Well, didn't
the Yamadutas... You stated in your lecture yesterday that the Yamadutas said
that what is truth is what is in the Vedas. So I assume from the Vedic knowledge
that there is life on other planets. Logically speaking also.
Prabhupada: Yes. How can you say there is no life?
Paramahamsa: But the scientists are saying, though, that the nearest star to our... You know, they consider the sun a star. And that the nearest star to ours is four light years away. Which means that it's... They do not believe that there's life in this entire solar system, in the planets nearest us, the moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter. They assume it's either too cold...
Prabhupada: No, we say in the sun there is life. Otherwise how Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this Bhagavad-gita science to the sun-god." So? Sun-god is dead stone, and Krsna spoke to him?
Bahulasva: They're very convinced, though, that they went to the moon, the scientists.
Devotee (3): I was going to ask you, Prabhupada, is that the moon planet that we see, is that the same moon planet that's mentioned in the sastras? The same planet?
Prabhupada: Yes, same one. But the moon planet where they went, that is a dark planet. That is not moon planet.
Krsna-dasa: My father is a graduate of Berkeley and he majored in astronomy and chemistry. And he's an atheist. And his logic is is that -- it's very empirical -- is that if there's other life, they have to have bodies similar to ours.
Prabhupada: Why?
Paramahamsa: So it's impossible to have a life on the sun because we could not live there. That's the empirical way of...
Prabhupada: You cannot live there; therefore there is no life.
Paramahamsa: That's what they assume.
Prabhupada: But you cannot live in the water. Why there is life?
Paramahamsa: Well, yes. That is fish.
Prabhupada: What is this nonsense, "empirical"? There are millions of living entities within the water, but you cannot live even for an half an hour.
Paramahamsa: But to scientific knowledge there's no life in fire.
Prabhupada: Why not? Fire is also one of the elements like water and earth. So if there is life in the water, life on the earth, why not in the fire? What is this logic?
Bahulasva: Actually, everything is burning. Even this body is also on fire.
Prabhupada: No, the material ingredients, five elements... Out of the five elements, fire is one of them. So if in the four elements there are life, why not in the fifth? How do you say? That is their ignorance.
Devotee (3): You say even in the sastra, Prabhupada, that there's so many living entities in this body. It's evident.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact. As soon as the body is dead, so many living entities will come out. Why? How it is possible? How these living entities are coming? What is the reason? You say the body is dead, so why from the dead body other living entities coming?
Paramahamsa: It becomes food for other living... It becomes food.
Prabhupada: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say, "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul.
Paramahamsa: When I first joined the movement, Srila Prabhupada, I used to listen to your lectures and then go talk with my father. And he would argue with me, and I would find a question and come back and ask you and find the answer and go back and argue with him. But the thing I always came up against is that if he assumes that there's life on other planets or that there is a supreme source, a supreme energy or God, then it destroys his entire life's work, his study.
Prabhupada: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.
Bahulasva: Donate all these buildings to you.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.
Bahulasva: They cannot live happily either or peaceful.
Prabhupada: Because they are, basically they are mistaken, how they can be happy? Basically they are mistaken. How you can be happy? They do not know what is happiness.
Paramahamsa: As a matter of fact, that's the same thing my father said. He says that "Because you believe in God, he says you don't have to fear death." He says, "But I have nothing to look forward to."
Prabhupada: So that is also the position of a stone. So you better remain a stone, but I am life. The stone does not believe in anything and still it is happy. So you remain a stone. I am not stone; I am life.
Jayadvaita: There's a verse in Caitanya-caritamrta that without Lord Caitanya, there is no life. Acaitanya.
Prabhupada: Hm, yes. Acaitanya, yes.
Bahulasva: So this dark planet, then, is closer?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bahulasva: This dark Rahu planet, this is closer?
Prabhupada: Rahu, yes. Rahu is between earth and sun. Moon is above sun.
Devotee (3): So it is bigger than the sun?
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. The size is there in the Bhagavata.
Paramahamsa: In Stockholm, Prabhupada, in the museum, they have a whole room, and in the room there is all these... There's American flag and Swedish flag, and there's a whole exhibit with one teeny little rock about as big as my finger nail that the Americans gave the Swedes. It's supposed to be a rock from the moon. And they said in it that it's exactly as any kind of rock that you'll find on earth. (laughter)
Prabhupada: They say? It is simply cheating. They found this in Arizona, somebody... (laughter) And laboratory work.
Bahulasva: I have been trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and that astronaut. He was going to come to Rathayatra, but he had to go to Florida for some space project.
Prabhupada: What does he say, astronaut?
Bahulasva: He says that... His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said... He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or... It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God.
Prabhupada: That's nice. He is good.
Bahulasva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Srimad-Bhagavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarupa Damodara prabhu wrote him also.
Prabhupada: What he is?
Bahulasva: He is a very big scientist for Fairchild. He started the space project.
Harikesa: He invented those rockets in Germany.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, he was actually captured. He used to work for Hitler. He invented the V-2 rockets that bombed London, or was one of them.
Bahulasva: He gave a very nice talk in San Francisco.
Prabhupada: Oh. About?
Bahulasva: He said that from his scientific studies he is feeling frustrated. So he made a public statement that he is going to give them up for studying God. He says that he feels that everything indicates in the universe that there must be a supreme intelligence behind the workings of the universe.
Prabhupada: Very intelligent man. He is intelligent. As soon as one denies the existence of God, immediately he comes within the category of four classes of men: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind and knowledge taken away by maya.
Bahulasva: The four classes that never surrender unto Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or do not admit the existence of God.
Paramahamsa: To assume that there is no God is basically nonscientific.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Because they're denying an entire field of study.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are rascals.
Yadunandana: The reason why the western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically...
Prabhupada: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created.
Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice.
Prabhupada: No, they became over-intelligent by so-called education.
Bahulasva: Over-intelligent?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: How is that?
Prabhupada: Over-intelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but over-intelligence means rascal.
Bahulasva: How does that happen, when he becomes over-intelligent?
Prabhupada: Over-intelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent.
Bahulasva: Oh. Speculative.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely..."
Prabhupada: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious?
Devotee (4): No, we don't accept...
Prabhupada: You reject. You reject. Come to us. Why do you accept these rascals as religious? That is your fault. Why should you stick to them? They cannot teach what is real religion, so let us give you.
Paramahamsa: In Germany they say that's throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.
Prabhupada: Throwing? (laughter)
Paramahamsa: They wash the baby, and the water's dirty. So they throw the water out with the baby.
Prabhupada: Throwing out the baby?
Devotee (4): With the bath water.
Paramahamsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion.
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: Scientists, I mean.
Prabhupada: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins?
Paramahamsa: That's the logic.
Prabhupada: That is not logic; that is foolishness.
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. You must be experienced, that "There are counterfeit coins. I shall be very clever, intelligent, to see before accepting any genuine coin." That should be your conclusion. Not that I have met one or two counterfeit coins, therefore I conclude there is no genuine coin.
Bahulasva: Just like in the old days when they would get a gold coin, they would bite it with their teeth to see if it was real gold, make a test. [break]
Baradraj: ...false, they must also conclude that there's something true. Because that is relative. [break]
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in...
Prabhupada: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...
Bahulasva: We should go this way, Srila Prabhupada, because they have these sprinklers on here.
Prabhupada: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.
Paramahamsa: As a matter of fact there's a very famous quote from Christ...
Prabhupada: I think Christ said that there are many things to be spoken but...
Paramahamsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now."
Prabhupada: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.
Nalini-kantha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.
Prabhupada: Because they are fourth-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.
Tamala Krsna: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of...
Prabhupada: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bahulasva: This is like Christian...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: They believe that there is God.
Prabhupada: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.
Jayadvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.
Prabhupada: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.
Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...
Prabhupada: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."
Bahulasva: So Prabhupada, you said belief is enough?
Prabhupada: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good.
Bahulasva: Blind faith.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, catur-vidha bhajante mam...
Jayadvaita: Janah sukrtino 'rjuna.
Prabhupada: Sukrtinah arjuna. Jnani... What is called?
Devotee (5): Arto jijnasur...
Prabhupada: Ah. No, this first word, distress, artah, artah. Artah, artharthi, jnani and jijnasuh. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jnani means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, visvasa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.
Devotee (6): It says in the Bhagavatam...
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that visvasa sabde sudrdha niscaya. Sudrdha niscaya, krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. Sraddha, sraddha. Sraddha means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required.
Paramahamsa: Like a child.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Sraddha, faith, means believing firmly. That is sraddha, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming...
Prabhupada: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm.
Narayana: So faith comes from previous pious activities?
Prabhupada: No, may not be previous activity. You believe the authority, spiritual master.
Tamala Krsna: That comes from purity, faith.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: As purity develops, one becomes more faithful.
Prabhupada: Yes. That purity is said, adau sraddha: "Beginning is faith." Now tato sadhu-sangah: "You mix with faithful men." Then it will develop. Otherwise, if you take simply initiation and then sleep, then faith will be lost. That is happening. Therefore it is said, adau sraddha tato sadhu-sangah. You accept faith, maybe blindly. Now you make further progress by mixing with advanced devotees. Then it will remain fixed. Otherwise you will loss.
Bahulasva: Faith is fixed by knowledge?
Prabhupada: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adah. Just like... Yasya deve para bhaktih yatha deve tatha gurau. So if you have got faith in spiritual master then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost.
Tamala Krsna: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith.
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: Isn't it is also like a child?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.
Paramahamsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust?
Prabhupada: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.
Tamala Krsna: Right. Prabhupada, what are the symptoms of purity?
Prabhupada: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.
Yadubara: So everyone has faith.
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone has. Therefore the direction should be taken from the perfect, and with faith you will make progress.
Narayana: Srila Prabhupada, but Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that wherever one puts their faith, He gives them the steadiness to worship in that way. So how come so many people, they put their faith in all these false gurus or people that impose themself as ones who are in knowledge and then they become fooled? Is this previous activities? Sinful activities?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Jayadvaita: You explained that in your lecture yesterday, that Krsna is in the heart and He is giving direction to remember or to forget, that sometimes He is directing to remember Him, sometimes to forget Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because if you have no faith, then Krsna will not give you instruction. When he is faithless, he will not make progress. Stops.
Narayana: But people are putting their faith in so many different places.
Prabhupada: "So many" means he has no faith in anything.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: As soon as you say, "so many," that means he has no faith. He is faithless.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada? If you say that purity is required for faith to develop, what are the symptoms by which one can be said to be pure?
Prabhupada: That is... Just like "Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." So if you have faith, you will not do it. But because you have no faith, you will do it, and therefore you will go to ruin.
Yadubara: The karmis have faith that the sun will come up every day.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: So that is actually faith in the workings of the Supreme, Krsna.
Prabhupada: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith.
Yadubara: Is that faith?
Prabhupada: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, the scientists will argue...
Prabhupada: That is faith -- means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith, with knowledge or without knowledge.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, the scientists will argue that Krsna consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on...
Prabhupada: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen-mix together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment.
Baradraj: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: So first we hear from the guru that Krsna is God, and we have faith in that, we chant, and then we come to know.
Prabhupada: As you become purified, then your faith becomes fixed up with knowledge. Therefore that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, yesam tv anta-gatam papam: [Bg. 7.28] "One who has finished his sinful life, he can become a devotee." Otherwise one cannot. First of all, beginning in faith. Then, by following the process, he becomes completely sinless. Then he, full knowledge. And so long he will be sinful, the things will be not properly manifested. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam.
Baradraj: So knowledge is not necessary for faith but faith is necessary for knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore devotee, without any knowledge he becomes devotee. That faith, only faith. The devotee advances. Jnanam ca yad ahaituki. Later on, they become automatically full of knowledge because they have strong faith. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah nasayamy: [Bg. 10.11] "Because he is faithful, therefore I help him how to get knowledge." Again you come to that. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everything is there.
Jayadvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Srila Prabhupada, everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad-gita, all explained and put together so nicely.
Paramahamsa: Blind faith is the belief that little...
Prabhupada: Blind faith, without... That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupada, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost.
Paramahamsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith.
Prabhupada: Yes, blind faith.
Paramahamsa: In the wrong thing.
Bahulasva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.
Prabhupada: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.
Bahulasva: This way.
Prabhupada: I have faith in you. [break] Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no... If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed.
Baradraj: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupada & devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so, they look like they could cut your throat.
Bahulasva: You have to have a lot of faith.
Prabhupada: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many... Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith, without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. [break] ...believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith. [break]
Baradraj: The airplane may crash.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are so many things. There is no guarantee that you will reach there. But still you have to purchase ticket. You have to get on the plane. That is faith.
Sudama: And all the passengers have to have faith in the captain of the plane.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the faith must be there. Without faith, you cannot go.
Paramahamsa: So actually that's what scientific knowledge, at least the atheistic science, is based upon, that on one hand the theists believe in faith, that there is a Supreme. But the atheist believes that "Undoubtedly there cannot be because we have not seen one."
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. The same example can be applied, that you have not gone there. How can I pay you? First of all let me go there. Then I shall pay," he may say. But he will, "Get out. First of all pay. Then you come on." (laughter) That's it.
Citsukhananda: When we were first coming to this movement, Srila Prabhupada, we opened Bhagavad-gita. Myself, I read. I said, "I don't understand this." So I began to clean the floor, wash the dishes, cut the vegetables...
Prabhupada: Yes, very good.
Citsukhananda: And then by your...
Prabhupada: Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau [Brs. 1.2.234]. By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasada. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. It begins... The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes, and why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Krsna and take{iul prasadam. That's all.
Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain...
Prabhupada: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me, and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasadam." That's all.
Jayadvaita: They had five thousand dollars worth of faith yesterday in the prasadam.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the sastra... Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is surprising. How is that? But it is a fact.
Baradraj: So to encourage their faith, therefore the sadhu must set example of purity.
Prabhupada: Sadhu sastra guru vakya, tinete koriya aikya. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ar na koriho mane asa **. Don't go anywhere else. Take this faithfully, the orders of guru. You are singing daily. Ar na koriho mane asa. This is faith, strong faith. And that is described in the Caitanya-caritamrta, sraddha-sabde -- visvasa sudrdha niscaya. Visvasa, firm faith. That is sraddha. Faith means to believe strongly. That is faith.
Paramahamsa: So actually, in regards to my father or atheists or scientists in general...
Prabhupada: They are faithless.
Paramahamsa: They will never believe.
Prabhupada: They are faithless; therefore they will never make any progress. Their first principle is sacrifice. And in the sastra it, adau sraddha: "First of all faith." And these rascals, they have no faith. Therefore they do not make any progress. And Rupa Gosvami says, adau sraddha: "Begin with faith." So they cannot realize, condemned, because Krsna will withdraw the knowledge. Mattah smrtir apohanam ca. So Krsna will say, "Oh, this rascal is faithless. All right, make him more faithless. He will never understand." That is atheist.
Baradraj: What is hope for them then?
Prabhupada: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Krsna says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand.
Yadubara: What is the best way, Srila Prabhupada, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people?
Prabhupada: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming-faith will come.
Yadubara: They will not come.
Prabhupada: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.
Yadubara: But if they take some prasadam, that will help them?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasadam. That will help you." Yes.
Paramahamsa: You may be pleased to know that Karttikeya... He said he's looking forward to going to Mayapur.
Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.
Sudama: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Krsna.
Citsukhananda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupada. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Krsna consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy. [break] ...Mukunda, Mukunda, or Murari? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected him. "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda. (indistinct) [break] ...api sarvesam mad-gata antaratmana, then?
Devotees: Sraddhavan bhajate yo mam.
Prabhupada: Ah. Sraddhavan, That is required. If he has no faith, then he remains in darkness.
Devotee (6): If we save the common people by giving them prasadam, how can we save the impersonalists?
Prabhupada: That will come later on. [break] ...ists will not come. They will never come because they do not believe in the personal feature of God. Unless very hungry, he will not come because he does not believe in prasada, does not believe in God.
Bahulasva: Just like yesterday those impersonalists wouldn't come on the stage. When they saw your opulent vyasasana and so many devotees offering your aratik, they realized if they came to the stage, they would have to sit at your feet. Therefore they wouldn't come. This one Swami Satchitananda... I have a friend who's a member of his movement. So this yogi told him that if you want to know how to receive the spiritual master you should go watch the Hare Krsna devotees when they greet their guru at the airport... Then you will learn what is the proper way to...
Prabhupada: Who says?
Bahulasva: Swami Satchitananda told him that. (laughter)
Yadubara: He cannot give instruction, so he has to...
Prabhupada: No, he was rejected. But then appealing, then he was reinstated.
Bahulasva: They want the respect, but they cannot command the respect.
Prabhupada: Yes, they... He was found implicated with some woman.
Bahulasva: You explain, Prabhupada, that the impersonalists have to again fall down to material activities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: So this Satchitananda, before he became yogi, he was an engineer. So in his spare time -- I was asking this boy, "What does he do? What is his life like?" I was wondering what he lived like. So he goes to bed at 8:00 at night, and no one sees him until 8:00 in the morning. So I asked, "Was he asleep?" So he said no, that he's in some trance. And then during the day he works on cars. He collects old automobiles, old classical cars, and he takes them apart and puts them together for a hobby.
Prabhupada: He cannot give up his old habit.
Bahulasva: No. He cannot give up the engineering habit.
Baradraj: About this Yogi Bhajan also, when I was in Delhi ...
Prabhupada: Delhi?
Baradraj: Yes, in Delhi, there was one cloth merchant there. And he asked me, he said, "Do you know this Yogi Bhajan?" I said, "Yes, he is very famous." He said, "Oh, he is my cousin. We used to be in the cloth business together. And he could not make enough money, so he decided to go to America." But his experience was, he was a train engineer actually, train.
Prabhupada: Who?
Baradraj: This Yogi Bhajan. So he said that he tried to get a job with one of the railroad companies, but because he was Sikh -- he was wearing long beard and hair -- they would not give him a job. They said, "You must shave up first." He said, "No, I cannot do this." So finally he decided that "Not only will I not shave my beard and hair but I will make hundreds of disciples..." [break]
Sudama: ...Prabhupada, either of those associations, which is the highest?
Prabhupada: Both are equal.
Sudama: Both are equal?
Prabhupada: You have to associate with both. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Both guru's krpa and Krsna's krpa, they must be joined. Then you will get. [break]
Jayadvaita: We're very eager to get that guru-krpa.
Prabhupada: Who?
Jayadwaita: We are, all of us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. If you get guru's krpa, then automatically you get Krsna.
Narayana: Guru-krpa only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Otherwise how?
Narayana: Excuse me?
Prabhupada: Otherwise how it can come?
Narayana: So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or speak with you...
Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vani.
Narayana: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased?
Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that.
Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vani. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help.
Sudama: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.
Prabhupada: No. Cakhu-dan dilo jei... What is that, next one?
Sudama: Cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.
Prabhupada: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.
Paramahamsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?
Prabhupada: That you do not require to question. (end)
Prabhupada: Yes. How can you say there is no life?
Paramahamsa: But the scientists are saying, though, that the nearest star to our... You know, they consider the sun a star. And that the nearest star to ours is four light years away. Which means that it's... They do not believe that there's life in this entire solar system, in the planets nearest us, the moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter. They assume it's either too cold...
Prabhupada: No, we say in the sun there is life. Otherwise how Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this Bhagavad-gita science to the sun-god." So? Sun-god is dead stone, and Krsna spoke to him?
Bahulasva: They're very convinced, though, that they went to the moon, the scientists.
Devotee (3): I was going to ask you, Prabhupada, is that the moon planet that we see, is that the same moon planet that's mentioned in the sastras? The same planet?
Prabhupada: Yes, same one. But the moon planet where they went, that is a dark planet. That is not moon planet.
Krsna-dasa: My father is a graduate of Berkeley and he majored in astronomy and chemistry. And he's an atheist. And his logic is is that -- it's very empirical -- is that if there's other life, they have to have bodies similar to ours.
Prabhupada: Why?
Paramahamsa: So it's impossible to have a life on the sun because we could not live there. That's the empirical way of...
Prabhupada: You cannot live there; therefore there is no life.
Paramahamsa: That's what they assume.
Prabhupada: But you cannot live in the water. Why there is life?
Paramahamsa: Well, yes. That is fish.
Prabhupada: What is this nonsense, "empirical"? There are millions of living entities within the water, but you cannot live even for an half an hour.
Paramahamsa: But to scientific knowledge there's no life in fire.
Prabhupada: Why not? Fire is also one of the elements like water and earth. So if there is life in the water, life on the earth, why not in the fire? What is this logic?
Bahulasva: Actually, everything is burning. Even this body is also on fire.
Prabhupada: No, the material ingredients, five elements... Out of the five elements, fire is one of them. So if in the four elements there are life, why not in the fifth? How do you say? That is their ignorance.
Devotee (3): You say even in the sastra, Prabhupada, that there's so many living entities in this body. It's evident.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact. As soon as the body is dead, so many living entities will come out. Why? How it is possible? How these living entities are coming? What is the reason? You say the body is dead, so why from the dead body other living entities coming?
Paramahamsa: It becomes food for other living... It becomes food.
Prabhupada: Food or whatever it may be, but the body, the ingredients of the body are complete to get life. You cannot say some chemical is missing. If it is missing, then how so many living entities are coming? There is nothing missing; everything is there. You cannot say, "missing." What is that "missing"? You do not know. That is soul.
Paramahamsa: When I first joined the movement, Srila Prabhupada, I used to listen to your lectures and then go talk with my father. And he would argue with me, and I would find a question and come back and ask you and find the answer and go back and argue with him. But the thing I always came up against is that if he assumes that there's life on other planets or that there is a supreme source, a supreme energy or God, then it destroys his entire life's work, his study.
Prabhupada: Then they are fools. They should stop all this education. This university should be broken. (laughter) Because they are producing only fools. That's all. They should stop this education.
Bahulasva: Donate all these buildings to you.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. The buildings will remain there, but they will be finished. What is this education? They do not know what is God, what is soul, and what is the meaning of education? Simply bodily concept of life like cats and dogs, so what is the use of education? They remain cats and dogs. That is no value.
Bahulasva: They cannot live happily either or peaceful.
Prabhupada: Because they are, basically they are mistaken, how they can be happy? Basically they are mistaken. How you can be happy? They do not know what is happiness.
Paramahamsa: As a matter of fact, that's the same thing my father said. He says that "Because you believe in God, he says you don't have to fear death." He says, "But I have nothing to look forward to."
Prabhupada: So that is also the position of a stone. So you better remain a stone, but I am life. The stone does not believe in anything and still it is happy. So you remain a stone. I am not stone; I am life.
Jayadvaita: There's a verse in Caitanya-caritamrta that without Lord Caitanya, there is no life. Acaitanya.
Prabhupada: Hm, yes. Acaitanya, yes.
Bahulasva: So this dark planet, then, is closer?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bahulasva: This dark Rahu planet, this is closer?
Prabhupada: Rahu, yes. Rahu is between earth and sun. Moon is above sun.
Devotee (3): So it is bigger than the sun?
Prabhupada: Not necessarily. The size is there in the Bhagavata.
Paramahamsa: In Stockholm, Prabhupada, in the museum, they have a whole room, and in the room there is all these... There's American flag and Swedish flag, and there's a whole exhibit with one teeny little rock about as big as my finger nail that the Americans gave the Swedes. It's supposed to be a rock from the moon. And they said in it that it's exactly as any kind of rock that you'll find on earth. (laughter)
Prabhupada: They say? It is simply cheating. They found this in Arizona, somebody... (laughter) And laboratory work.
Bahulasva: I have been trying to arrange a meeting between Your Divine Grace and that astronaut. He was going to come to Rathayatra, but he had to go to Florida for some space project.
Prabhupada: What does he say, astronaut?
Bahulasva: He says that... His name is Edgar Mitchell, and he was one of the men who went to the moon. But we talked, and he said... He thinks he has gone to the moon. But he said that when he was there, he had a religious experience, and he felt that there was a God. When he went to the moon, he had this experience. So when he came back, he was telling all his scientist friends what his experience was. So they became very afraid, and they kicked him out of the space project. They thought he had become a fanatic, religious sentimentalist, so they kicked him out. So now he has opened up an institute for noetic sciences or... It is some Greek word. It means like spiritual sciences. He wants to prove to the scientific world that there is God.
Prabhupada: That's nice. He is good.
Bahulasva: So we gave him a copy of Easy Journey to Other Planets and Srimad-Bhagavatam, and he's been reading that. He is friends with that other scientist, Wernher Von Braun, who gave that speech also saying that he feels that there is definitely God by his scientific studies. We also wrote him a letter, but we haven't gotten any response. Svarupa Damodara prabhu wrote him also.
Prabhupada: What he is?
Bahulasva: He is a very big scientist for Fairchild. He started the space project.
Harikesa: He invented those rockets in Germany.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, he was actually captured. He used to work for Hitler. He invented the V-2 rockets that bombed London, or was one of them.
Bahulasva: He gave a very nice talk in San Francisco.
Prabhupada: Oh. About?
Bahulasva: He said that from his scientific studies he is feeling frustrated. So he made a public statement that he is going to give them up for studying God. He says that he feels that everything indicates in the universe that there must be a supreme intelligence behind the workings of the universe.
Prabhupada: Very intelligent man. He is intelligent. As soon as one denies the existence of God, immediately he comes within the category of four classes of men: sinful, rascal, lowest of the mankind and knowledge taken away by maya.
Bahulasva: The four classes that never surrender unto Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Or do not admit the existence of God.
Paramahamsa: To assume that there is no God is basically nonscientific.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Because they're denying an entire field of study.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are rascals.
Yadunandana: The reason why the western world is so much involved in science is because the religions that have been presented here in the West have cheated the people economically...
Prabhupada: No, why cheated? The Christian religion says God created.
Devotee (4): But the followers do not practice this idea. The original idea is very nice.
Prabhupada: No, they became over-intelligent by so-called education.
Bahulasva: Over-intelligent?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: How is that?
Prabhupada: Over-intelligence means rascal. Intelligence is good, but over-intelligence means rascal.
Bahulasva: How does that happen, when he becomes over-intelligent?
Prabhupada: Over-intelligent, it is sarcastically said. More than intelligent.
Bahulasva: Oh. Speculative.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (4): What I meant to say is that the directors of these religions like the Pope and so many things, they themselves have committed so many abominable activities that people have said, "Well, why should we stay with religion? These religious leaders themselves are eating meat, they have prostitution, they are cheating the people, taking their money, living very nicely..."
Prabhupada: But that is not religion. Why you accept the Pope as religious?
Devotee (4): No, we don't accept...
Prabhupada: You reject. You reject. Come to us. Why do you accept these rascals as religious? That is your fault. Why should you stick to them? They cannot teach what is real religion, so let us give you.
Paramahamsa: In Germany they say that's throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water.
Prabhupada: Throwing? (laughter)
Paramahamsa: They wash the baby, and the water's dirty. So they throw the water out with the baby.
Prabhupada: Throwing out the baby?
Devotee (4): With the bath water.
Paramahamsa: Well, they're assuming because there's some irreligion amongst the so-called religious leaders, therefore they reject all religion.
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: Scientists, I mean.
Prabhupada: No, why? Because you have received some counterfeit coin, therefore you should reject all coins?
Paramahamsa: That's the logic.
Prabhupada: That is not logic; that is foolishness.
Paramahamsa: Right.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. You must be experienced, that "There are counterfeit coins. I shall be very clever, intelligent, to see before accepting any genuine coin." That should be your conclusion. Not that I have met one or two counterfeit coins, therefore I conclude there is no genuine coin.
Bahulasva: Just like in the old days when they would get a gold coin, they would bite it with their teeth to see if it was real gold, make a test. [break]
Baradraj: ...false, they must also conclude that there's something true. Because that is relative. [break]
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, the basis for scientific rejection of religious dogma is that in the Medieval era in...
Prabhupada: Religious..., not dogma. Just like in Christian religion it is said that "God created this." So this is a fact, but it is not properly explained. And neither the followers understood how to explain, third-class men. So therefore they should accept, that's all. They should accept. Just like one thing, sweetmeat. A child is tasting. So if the child wants how it is made, so he has no power to understand. Therefore he should be simply ordered, "You simply eat. That's all." So in the Bible it is like that. And therefore it is strictly ordered that "You should follow." The things are there but they are not explained because they were third-class men. Otherwise why the commandment was, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed first of all Jesus Christ? So what class of men they were? All third-class, fourth-class men. How they will understand? Now people have become, by education, advanced...
Bahulasva: We should go this way, Srila Prabhupada, because they have these sprinklers on here.
Prabhupada: Now they should come to big dictionary. This is Vedic. The Vedic truth is there, but it is not properly explained because the men were fourth-class. Now the people have become advanced. They should take to Vedic literature. Then they will understand how God created. But it was not explained because the people, they were living in the desert and shepherds and all fourth-class, fifth-class men. And now they, these first-class men, all advanced men, they are trying to adjust the tenth-class ideas, and therefore they are becoming rejecting, that "It is all useless." Now they should come to first-class understanding in the Vedas.
Paramahamsa: As a matter of fact there's a very famous quote from Christ...
Prabhupada: I think Christ said that there are many things to be spoken but...
Paramahamsa: "My father's house has many rooms, but I cannot tell you of it now."
Prabhupada: Because they were fourth-class, fifth-class men. They will not understand. Therefore it is taken, "dogmas." The modern students, they are advanced in education, and these things are not explained. And besides that, their education is atheistic. Therefore they are trying to reject religion.
Nalini-kantha: They say you cannot study Veda because Christ said that there is no other way than himself.
Prabhupada: Because they are fourth-class, unless he says like that, how they will stick? They were not intelligent men. Just like Lord Buddha also said, "There is no God." "There is no God," but he is God himself.
Tamala Krsna: That means the followers of Lord Buddha are less intelligent than the followers of...
Prabhupada: "Less" not. They are atheist class. So they will not understand what is God. So he said, "There is no God. You just hear me and become nonviolent." So his idea was, "Let this rascal first of all become nonviolent. Then they will be pure, and then they will understand."
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, in Nectar of Devotion you explain that there are three classes of devotees. And you say that the third-class devotee, he has belief but he cannot explain or give any support.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bahulasva: This is like Christian...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: They believe that there is God.
Prabhupada: If you believe there is God, that is sufficient. That is sufficient. But now they, being advanced in education, they want to know how God is there. There is no explanation. Therefore they reject it.
Jayadvaita: They try to explain scientifically what's in the Bible.
Prabhupada: That science is rascaldom. So how they will be able? Because the whole thing is rascaldom, how they will explain God? Those who are actually advanced scientists, they have accepted. "There must be God," they say.
Jayadwaita: But otherwise the rascals, they try and explain scientifically. They come to the conclusion...
Prabhupada: Yes, what is their science? Whole science is rascaldom. Just like they have never seen what is there in the planet, and they are concluding, "There is no life." You see? So they are all rascals. Maybe one or two like that gentleman who says that "No, there is God. There is grace."
Bahulasva: So Prabhupada, you said belief is enough?
Prabhupada: Yes, for the noneducated rascal, belief is the... That is required, blind belief. That is good.
Bahulasva: Blind faith.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: But to become an advanced devotee, do you have to have knowledge?
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, catur-vidha bhajante mam...
Jayadvaita: Janah sukrtino 'rjuna.
Prabhupada: Sukrtinah arjuna. Jnani... What is called?
Devotee (5): Arto jijnasur...
Prabhupada: Ah. No, this first word, distress, artah, artah. Artah, artharthi, jnani and jijnasuh. So some innocent man, when he is distressed, he has belief in God. So he approaches God, "God, I am distressed. Kindly help me." He is simply on faith. That is good. And jnani means he wants to know actually what is God. Then his enquiry is advancing.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, sometimes philosophers make a distinction between knowledge and a belief. They say you can believe in something, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily know that thing which you believe in.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's fact. Therefore for the neophytes, less intelligent, they should believe. That is the only way, visvasa. So generally mass of people they are not so educated. They should believe.
Devotee (6): It says in the Bhagavatam...
Prabhupada: Therefore in the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that visvasa sabde sudrdha niscaya. Sudrdha niscaya, krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. Sraddha, sraddha. Sraddha means faith. So in Christian science also, there is state, faithful. So this faith may be blind, but that is required.
Paramahamsa: Like a child.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Sraddha, faith, means believing firmly. That is sraddha, or faith. There is no question, "Yes." Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Therefore we have to believe in the Vedas. Vedas also says like that. That example I give sometimes, that cow dung is stool. In one place it is said stool is impure; in another place it is said cow dung is pure. Now, one may argue, "What is this, contradiction?" But you have to believe it. That is Veda. And that is actually being done. So without faith, you cannot make advance. The skeptics, they have no faith. Therefore they are lost. You must have faith.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada? What is that ingredient or what is that thing which causes faith to develop in one? From someone becoming...
Prabhupada: Purity. Purity. The more you become pure, the faith is firm.
Narayana: So faith comes from previous pious activities?
Prabhupada: No, may not be previous activity. You believe the authority, spiritual master.
Tamala Krsna: That comes from purity, faith.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: As purity develops, one becomes more faithful.
Prabhupada: Yes. That purity is said, adau sraddha: "Beginning is faith." Now tato sadhu-sangah: "You mix with faithful men." Then it will develop. Otherwise, if you take simply initiation and then sleep, then faith will be lost. That is happening. Therefore it is said, adau sraddha tato sadhu-sangah. You accept faith, maybe blindly. Now you make further progress by mixing with advanced devotees. Then it will remain fixed. Otherwise you will loss.
Bahulasva: Faith is fixed by knowledge?
Prabhupada: No, faith may be blind, but it increases. If you stick to faith and follow the principles, then it will increase. Svayam eva sphuraty adah. Just like... Yasya deve para bhaktih yatha deve tatha gurau. So if you have got faith in spiritual master then you will advance. If you have no faith, then it will be lost.
Tamala Krsna: And unless one is pure, he will not have faith.
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: Isn't it is also like a child?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Everyone is child. So the father says, "Do this. That's all." Like "Write 'A.' " He does not know what is A. But the father says, "You write like this." That will increase his education.
Paramahamsa: But doesn't it come first because of trust?
Prabhupada: Yes, trust. Without trust, without faith, you cannot advance even an inch. So therefore it is required.
Tamala Krsna: Right. Prabhupada, what are the symptoms of purity?
Prabhupada: Just like I do not know where this pathway goes. But you show me, "This way." So without faith, how can I go? If I have no faith, then I cannot move even an inch. I believe, "Yes, he is all right. Let me go." This is faith. I do not know whether it is going, which way it is going. So without faith, you cannot move an inch. So faith must be there, either it is true or blind.
Yadubara: So everyone has faith.
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone has. Therefore the direction should be taken from the perfect, and with faith you will make progress.
Narayana: Srila Prabhupada, but Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that wherever one puts their faith, He gives them the steadiness to worship in that way. So how come so many people, they put their faith in all these false gurus or people that impose themself as ones who are in knowledge and then they become fooled? Is this previous activities? Sinful activities?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Jayadvaita: You explained that in your lecture yesterday, that Krsna is in the heart and He is giving direction to remember or to forget, that sometimes He is directing to remember Him, sometimes to forget Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because if you have no faith, then Krsna will not give you instruction. When he is faithless, he will not make progress. Stops.
Narayana: But people are putting their faith in so many different places.
Prabhupada: "So many" means he has no faith in anything.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: As soon as you say, "so many," that means he has no faith. He is faithless.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada? If you say that purity is required for faith to develop, what are the symptoms by which one can be said to be pure?
Prabhupada: That is... Just like "Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't do this." So if you have faith, you will not do it. But because you have no faith, you will do it, and therefore you will go to ruin.
Yadubara: The karmis have faith that the sun will come up every day.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: So that is actually faith in the workings of the Supreme, Krsna.
Prabhupada: What is your idea? I do not follow. Everyone knows the sun will appear, faithless or faith.
Yadubara: Is that faith?
Prabhupada: Not faith. It is fact. He is seeing every day.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, the scientists will argue...
Prabhupada: That is faith -- means on knowledge. So faith with knowledge is very good. But beginning must be faith, with knowledge or without knowledge.
Bahulasva: Srila Prabhupada, the scientists will argue that Krsna consciousness won't be scientifically accepted if it's just based on...
Prabhupada: The scientists, how they can argue like that? Therefore they are rascals. First of all they explain something theoretically: "Hydrogen, oxygen-mix together it becomes water." It is faith. Then it is practically shown in the laboratory. So faith is the beginning. Theoretical knowledge means faith. Then experiment.
Baradraj: The Vedic knowledge is also that way, very scientific.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: So first we hear from the guru that Krsna is God, and we have faith in that, we chant, and then we come to know.
Prabhupada: As you become purified, then your faith becomes fixed up with knowledge. Therefore that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, yesam tv anta-gatam papam: [Bg. 7.28] "One who has finished his sinful life, he can become a devotee." Otherwise one cannot. First of all, beginning in faith. Then, by following the process, he becomes completely sinless. Then he, full knowledge. And so long he will be sinful, the things will be not properly manifested. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam.
Baradraj: So knowledge is not necessary for faith but faith is necessary for knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore devotee, without any knowledge he becomes devotee. That faith, only faith. The devotee advances. Jnanam ca yad ahaituki. Later on, they become automatically full of knowledge because they have strong faith. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah nasayamy: [Bg. 10.11] "Because he is faithful, therefore I help him how to get knowledge." Again you come to that. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everything is there.
Jayadvaita: Your lecture yesterday was so nice, Srila Prabhupada, everything, so many ideas from Bhagavad-gita, all explained and put together so nicely.
Paramahamsa: Blind faith is the belief that little...
Prabhupada: Blind faith, without... That I have already explained. Immediately, why do you forget? He shows me, "Prabhupada, come this way." So I have no faith. Why shall I go? Then I have stop here, finished, movement finished. So you have to keep faith blindly. And if the man who is giving direction, he is perfect, then your faith will make you advanced. But if you go to a rascal cheater and if you have faith, blind faith, then you are lost.
Paramahamsa: Just like that little rock that I saw, that it's from the moon. Now that is blind faith.
Prabhupada: Yes, blind faith.
Paramahamsa: In the wrong thing.
Bahulasva: Socrates also, he was discussing epistemology, and he said that faith or belief is as good as knowledge for all practical purposes.
Prabhupada: Yes. The same thing: the child has no knowledge, but he has faith in his parents, and he believes what his parents says. Then he is making progress.
Bahulasva: This way.
Prabhupada: I have faith in you. [break] Now, I give sometimes this example. Just like you go to a barber shop, and you put your neck like this, and he is with the razor. So unless you have faith, "No, he is good man. He will not cut my throat," how can you do so? So faith is the beginning. If you have no... If you say, "No, I have no faith in you," then you cannot be cleansed.
Baradraj: That example became very clear when we went to India. (Prabhupada & devotees laugh) Because the barbers are so, they look like they could cut your throat.
Bahulasva: You have to have a lot of faith.
Prabhupada: He can do that, but you must have faith. Otherwise no shaving. So many... Suppose you are going to some unknown place. Now we are purchasing, paying two thousand dollars, ticket. But where is the guarantee that you will go there? You are paying first money, but there is no guarantee that you will go there. Then how do you get the ticket? How do you get on the plane unless, without faith? So faith, without faith you cannot move an inch. It must be there. [break] ...believe, "No, no, this ticket is issued by the Pan American. They are good company, and so many people are going. So I will go also." That's all. So faith. You never went there, neither you know whether it will be possible to go there. But still, you have to do. That is faith. [break]
Baradraj: The airplane may crash.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are so many things. There is no guarantee that you will reach there. But still you have to purchase ticket. You have to get on the plane. That is faith.
Sudama: And all the passengers have to have faith in the captain of the plane.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the faith must be there. Without faith, you cannot go.
Paramahamsa: So actually that's what scientific knowledge, at least the atheistic science, is based upon, that on one hand the theists believe in faith, that there is a Supreme. But the atheist believes that "Undoubtedly there cannot be because we have not seen one."
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. The same example can be applied, that you have not gone there. How can I pay you? First of all let me go there. Then I shall pay," he may say. But he will, "Get out. First of all pay. Then you come on." (laughter) That's it.
Citsukhananda: When we were first coming to this movement, Srila Prabhupada, we opened Bhagavad-gita. Myself, I read. I said, "I don't understand this." So I began to clean the floor, wash the dishes, cut the vegetables...
Prabhupada: Yes, very good.
Citsukhananda: And then by your...
Prabhupada: Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau [Brs. 1.2.234]. By service only. You can understand God simply by service. There is no other way. And the faith begins from the tongue. You see? Therefore it is advised that you chant and take prasada. Then faith will come. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. It begins... The faith begins from the tongue. "Why?" People will be surprised. "Faith must begin from the mind, from the eyes, and why it is said tongue?" They do not know. That is also faith, that "Simply engaging tongue in the service of the Lord, I shall understand." So this is also blind faith. But actually it is happening. Chant Hare Krsna and take{iul prasadam. That's all.
Yadubara: So most of these people, they are so ignorant that we should try to engage them in works of devotion rather than explain...
Prabhupada: This is devotion: "Please come here, chant with me, and dance with me, and when you are tired, take prasadam." That's all.
Jayadvaita: They had five thousand dollars worth of faith yesterday in the prasadam.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) Yes. So whatever is said in the sastra... Now, they say, "Faith begins from the tongue." "No," it is surprising. How is that? But it is a fact.
Baradraj: So to encourage their faith, therefore the sadhu must set example of purity.
Prabhupada: Sadhu sastra guru vakya, tinete koriya aikya. Guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya, ar na koriho mane asa **. Don't go anywhere else. Take this faithfully, the orders of guru. You are singing daily. Ar na koriho mane asa. This is faith, strong faith. And that is described in the Caitanya-caritamrta, sraddha-sabde -- visvasa sudrdha niscaya. Visvasa, firm faith. That is sraddha. Faith means to believe strongly. That is faith.
Paramahamsa: So actually, in regards to my father or atheists or scientists in general...
Prabhupada: They are faithless.
Paramahamsa: They will never believe.
Prabhupada: They are faithless; therefore they will never make any progress. Their first principle is sacrifice. And in the sastra it, adau sraddha: "First of all faith." And these rascals, they have no faith. Therefore they do not make any progress. And Rupa Gosvami says, adau sraddha: "Begin with faith." So they cannot realize, condemned, because Krsna will withdraw the knowledge. Mattah smrtir apohanam ca. So Krsna will say, "Oh, this rascal is faithless. All right, make him more faithless. He will never understand." That is atheist.
Baradraj: What is hope for them then?
Prabhupada: To become faithful, surrender. That is. Therefore Krsna says, "You rascal, surrender. You are not faithful; therefore you are condemned. You surrender first. Then next thing." So unless he becomes a surrendered soul, there is no hope. There is no hope. He will never understand.
Yadubara: What is the best way, Srila Prabhupada, to instill a little faith? How do we instill some faith in these people?
Prabhupada: Little faith... Therefore you associate. Just like we are inviting this morning lecture. Coming, coming, coming, coming-faith will come.
Yadubara: They will not come.
Prabhupada: They will not come. Then he is condemned. Let them remain animals. If you don't go to school, there is no question of education. Where is the question of education? One must go to the school with faith that "I will be educated." That is required.
Yadubara: But if they take some prasadam, that will help them?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is your mercy, that you are... He is faithless rascal. "All right, you take prasadam. That will help you." Yes.
Paramahamsa: You may be pleased to know that Karttikeya... He said he's looking forward to going to Mayapur.
Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise why he is coming again? (chuckles) There must be some faith.
Sudama: I spoke with him the other day, and he said now he's getting a degree, but now he does not know what to do with it. So he sees that all of his activity of going to school and getting degrees is useless waste of time if there's no connection with Krsna.
Citsukhananda: Actually, nobody could leave your lotus feet, Prabhupada. Once they've come and tasted this bliss of Krsna consciousness, nobody could leave. Everyone comes back. Sometimes we become confused a little, but nobody can leave you.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy. [break] ...Mukunda, Mukunda, or Murari? Mukunda. He was going everywhere. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected him. "Don't let this rascal to come here." You know that? Mukunda. (indistinct) [break] ...api sarvesam mad-gata antaratmana, then?
Devotees: Sraddhavan bhajate yo mam.
Prabhupada: Ah. Sraddhavan, That is required. If he has no faith, then he remains in darkness.
Devotee (6): If we save the common people by giving them prasadam, how can we save the impersonalists?
Prabhupada: That will come later on. [break] ...ists will not come. They will never come because they do not believe in the personal feature of God. Unless very hungry, he will not come because he does not believe in prasada, does not believe in God.
Bahulasva: Just like yesterday those impersonalists wouldn't come on the stage. When they saw your opulent vyasasana and so many devotees offering your aratik, they realized if they came to the stage, they would have to sit at your feet. Therefore they wouldn't come. This one Swami Satchitananda... I have a friend who's a member of his movement. So this yogi told him that if you want to know how to receive the spiritual master you should go watch the Hare Krsna devotees when they greet their guru at the airport... Then you will learn what is the proper way to...
Prabhupada: Who says?
Bahulasva: Swami Satchitananda told him that. (laughter)
Yadubara: He cannot give instruction, so he has to...
Prabhupada: No, he was rejected. But then appealing, then he was reinstated.
Bahulasva: They want the respect, but they cannot command the respect.
Prabhupada: Yes, they... He was found implicated with some woman.
Bahulasva: You explain, Prabhupada, that the impersonalists have to again fall down to material activities.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: So this Satchitananda, before he became yogi, he was an engineer. So in his spare time -- I was asking this boy, "What does he do? What is his life like?" I was wondering what he lived like. So he goes to bed at 8:00 at night, and no one sees him until 8:00 in the morning. So I asked, "Was he asleep?" So he said no, that he's in some trance. And then during the day he works on cars. He collects old automobiles, old classical cars, and he takes them apart and puts them together for a hobby.
Prabhupada: He cannot give up his old habit.
Bahulasva: No. He cannot give up the engineering habit.
Baradraj: About this Yogi Bhajan also, when I was in Delhi ...
Prabhupada: Delhi?
Baradraj: Yes, in Delhi, there was one cloth merchant there. And he asked me, he said, "Do you know this Yogi Bhajan?" I said, "Yes, he is very famous." He said, "Oh, he is my cousin. We used to be in the cloth business together. And he could not make enough money, so he decided to go to America." But his experience was, he was a train engineer actually, train.
Prabhupada: Who?
Baradraj: This Yogi Bhajan. So he said that he tried to get a job with one of the railroad companies, but because he was Sikh -- he was wearing long beard and hair -- they would not give him a job. They said, "You must shave up first." He said, "No, I cannot do this." So finally he decided that "Not only will I not shave my beard and hair but I will make hundreds of disciples..." [break]
Sudama: ...Prabhupada, either of those associations, which is the highest?
Prabhupada: Both are equal.
Sudama: Both are equal?
Prabhupada: You have to associate with both. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Both guru's krpa and Krsna's krpa, they must be joined. Then you will get. [break]
Jayadvaita: We're very eager to get that guru-krpa.
Prabhupada: Who?
Jayadwaita: We are, all of us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. If you get guru's krpa, then automatically you get Krsna.
Narayana: Guru-krpa only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Otherwise how?
Narayana: Excuse me?
Prabhupada: Otherwise how it can come?
Narayana: So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or speak with you...
Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vani.
Narayana: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased?
Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that.
Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then? I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vani. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help.
Sudama: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru.
Prabhupada: No. Cakhu-dan dilo jei... What is that, next one?
Sudama: Cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei.
Prabhupada: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.
Paramahamsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?
Prabhupada: That you do not require to question. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- July 21, 1975, San Francisco
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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