Bombay, December 23, 1975
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Prabhupada: ....when he has gone to
send (indistinct) that you have offered some room here?Saurabha: No, well
there was, on the floor space there is facility for a doctor, so he saw that on
the plan, so he proposed that "Well, I'm a dentist, so I can give the devotees
free service."
Prabhupada: No, there will be no medical service in the building. (Hindi to some men) These quarters there is no such building, huh? Our, this pattern?
Saurabha: No. Not in Bombay, nowhere in Bombay.
Prabhupada: (chuckling) That's very good.
Harikesa: There will be after this, though.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: After this there will be...
Devotee: Imitation. (Prabhupada laughs)
Lokanatha: There should not be any medical service in the building, new building, so what about there should be any other place on the land, or they should not...?
Prabhupada: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room-then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomachache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside:) Hare Krsna! Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee, there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain, I never went to the dentist; I invented my medicine, and it cured. (laughter)
Harikesa: Now everyone else is using it here.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it.
Prabhupada: They like it?
Harikesa: Oh, yes. The best.
Prabhupada: Huh? The only defect is that all the ingredients are not very finely powdered. If it is very finely powdered, then it will be very nice.
Lokanatha: You are perfect in all respects. You are your own doctor...
Prabhupada: I am not doctor, but I created many doctors. [break] (to Dr. Patel:) Hare Krsna! Jaya. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi: ap lok hamye sa chaye) I have decided not to come today with you. Because I was driven away yesterday morning by your men. I came to look after you.
Prabhupada: How is that?
Dr. Patel: God only knows. They have behaved so very badly, be three of us. And you were not sleeping even, because I wanted to give you the prescription, so I ran from my house.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hamsaduta: No, I was not...
Dr. Patel: No, you were not.
Harisauri: No, I was there. You had just taken rest in the bedroom, so I thought it best not to disturb you.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, I was taking rest.
Dr. Patel: I wrote out the prescription and gave it.
Prabhupada: Yes, I got that. Huh.
Lokanatha: So you can come?
Prabhupada: So I was resting.
Dr. Patel: No, I won't come. I want only humble obeisances today. Thank you very much. (leaves)
Prabhupada: So he wanted to see me?
Harisauri: He brought two of his friends in as well. I thought he was going to create such a commotion, and you had just taken rest, so I said better to let you rest and not disturb you.
Prabhupada: (to passerby) Hare Krsna! (japa)
Lokanatha: All over the world, the Ratha-yatra attracts thousands of people, but in Bombay we'll not have Jagannatha Deities, so how could we have Ratha-yatra and attract people? (indistinct) give some correction.
Prabhupada: ...our temple then.... [break]
Giriraja: A question was raised about Lord Rama worshiping Siva.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Giriraja: At one of the programs, somebody raised the question that we cited that Lord Siva is worshiping Krsna, that he is a Vaisnava. So that person replied that Lord Rama also worshiped Siva. So he wanted to know the explanation.
Lokanatha: You explained yesterday.
Prabhupada: Sometimes Krsna is chastised by mother Yasoda. So how is that? The Supreme Personality of Godhead is being chastised by mother Yasoda?
Giriraja: He likes to be chastised. It's part of the relationship.
Prabhupada: Similarly, He likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here?
Harikesa: That later-on Ramayana has caused some havoc.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Harikesa: That later-on interpretation?
Prabhupada: Yes, the Saivaites, they want to make Lord Siva the exalted Supreme Person. In South India there is good propaganda. That is always going on.
Lokanatha: When Lord Siva says in Puranas that mukti-pradapah sarvesam visnu... (sic)
Prabhupada: Hm?
Lokanatha: Purana, the same Lord Siva says there is no other liberated besides Visnu.
Devotee: ...engagement, one devotee commented that the reason that Lord Rama worshiped Lord Siva was because He wanted to kill Ravana and Ravana was a devotee of Siva, so Lord Rama worshiped Siva in that respect.
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?
Harikesa: He said that because Lord Siva was, ah, excuse me, Ravana was a devotee of Lord Siva, that in order that Lord Ramacandra could kill Ravana, He worshiped Siva.
Kirtanananda: He wanted to take permission of him, so they say. Rama wanted to take permission from Siva...
Prabhupada: So Siva is so rascal that he gave permission? That means they are trying to prove Siva is a rascal. (devotees laugh) Because he gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use of his, of one becoming Siva's devotee? If such a rascal that one can take his permission to kill his devotee, so what is the use of becoming a devotee of such a rascal? Huh?
Harikesa: He protected Banasura.
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Siva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Siva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Siva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, please give me your permission, I shall kill your son, and if you say, "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Siva a rascal, that he has no common sense even.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, if this proposition is there, that Lord Siva gives permission for killing his devotee, then who will become his devotee? Huh? Is it not?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupada: No sane man will become his devotee. All the manufactured foolish statements, just see. Any commonsense man will immediately say, "Then Siva is a rascal; he cannot give protection to his devotee." What do you think? Huh?
Kirtanananda: Of course, Srila Prabhupada, does one have to give protection to their devotee if they break the law? Just like if you have a child, and he murders someone, isn't he supposed to be punished? So if someone goes against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even if you are a devotee, shouldn't Siva concur?
Prabhupada: No, no. That is another thing. This proposal, that because Lord Ramacandra approached Lord Siva to kill Ravana, and he gave permission, although Ravana was his great devotee. Then what is the use of becoming devotee of Lord Siva? He gives permission. Huh? Is that very reasonable proposal? If I ask your permission that I shall kill your son, will you give permission? No. Then? So Lord Siva gives permission to Lord Ramacandra, "Yes, You can kill Ravana," then what is the use of becoming his devotee?
Harikesa: I think Dr. Patel would say that it's not fair, you have fired the opposition.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Harikesa: It's not fair. You have completely destroyed the opposition. (Prabhupada laughs) There is no question of fight.
Prabhupada: The actual fact is that Lord Siva did not give permission, but he did not go to protect Ravana, because he knew that it was impossible to give him protection. That is summarized in Bengali, rakhe krsna mare ke, mare krsna rakhe ke. If Krsna kills somebody, wants to kill somebody, nobody can give him protection. That is the conclusion. And if Krsna protects somebody, nobody can kill him. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. Huh? He was protected by Lord Nrsimhadeva. Who can kill?
Kirtanananda: Why did Lord Siva try to protect Banasura?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: Didn't Lord Siva try to protect Banasura?
Prabhupada: Yes. You must try, when your son is in danger, you must try. That is natural. That is not uncommon. You can save or not save, that is a different thing. But it is you duty, if somebody is under your protection, you must try to save him, even at the risk of your life. That is real protector.
Lokanatha: Do you have plans, Srila Prabhupada, to comment on Ramayana in future?
Prabhupada: Hm? First of all finish my Bhagavatam, then we shall talk of other things.
Indian man: Lord Brahma took away the cows and the cowherd boys that Krsna was playing with. At that time Krsna expanded Himself just to (indistinct) about a year or so that these cows are all Krsna expansions, but the gopis were so much (indistinct) to (indistinct) Krsna's (indistinct). Now he started, he doubted that gopis are (indistinct) with Krsna because these cowherds and ah, they are part and parcel of Krsna only, so he was not...
Prabhupada: Hm. That is called, they were playing the role of human being. (pause)
Indian man: ...would be nearing the portion where that (indistinct) is there. I told Giriraja prabhu, when you were sick, that fever is there, you were having fever, so I...
Prabhupada: No, I had no fever.
Indian man: When you went to Vrndavana? Some...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian man: So I was telling my wife, she said that you read that Bhagavatam, where that Ban(asura) is there, that Siva means having, producing jvara, fever, so Visnujvara is cold only, so that Visnujvara will bring down the fever. So you were just reading more Bhagavatam only, when you are sick. Anybody who is suffering from fever means you read such and such a portion, so it should come down.
Prabhupada: No, Visnu should not be utilized for curing your fever. (laughter) That is not bhakti. That is business.
Indian man: So you are always reaching for bhakti point. That is too high for mundane people to reach.
Prabhupada: That is bhakti, high, highest. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. If you have real bhakti, then you can understand Vaisnava. To know Visnu-avan manasa-gocara: it is very difficult.
manusyanam saharesu
kascit yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascid mam vetti tattvatah
[Bg. 7.3]
To understand Visnu -- very, very difficult. And.... If, but you can understand Visnu by bhakti. So bhakti is so easy thing.
Kirtanananda: How about if a disciple wants to use the help of Visnu for the spiritual master?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: A disciple wants to take the aid of Visnu for serving the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Hah. That is nice. That is for curing Visnu's representative. When we were in danger, there was so much obstruction for constructing the temple, and we prayed to Krsna that it should stopped. We prayed to Krsna, "Please give your protection." That is for Visnu's purpose. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, arto 'rtharthi jijnasur: when one is in distress, he comes to Krsna. So that is not pure bhakti. Pure bhakti means, "I shall not take a farthing from Krsna; I shall give everything to Krsna." That is pure. "I shall not take any return from Krsna." Prahlada Maharaja says, "I am not a merchant, that for my service I take some return for it." No. But sometimes when, since we are not pure devotees, we have no other alternative than to beg Krsna for some material benefit. That is also good. They have said, catur-vidha bhajante mam, sukrtinah, that pious. Although they are not pure devotee, but they are pious. But the duskrtinah, they do not approach Him. That is the difference.
catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino'rjuna
arto 'rtharthi jijnasur
jnani ca bharatarsabha
[Bg. 7.16]
They are also good, pious. And one who does not go to Visnu for any reason, they are most sinful. Here, although he goes to Visnu for some material benefit, he is pious. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Those who are impious, sinful, they do not go. (comes to a part of beach covered by waves) So I will have to jump like this?
Harikesa: No, we made the wrong turn.
Lokanatha: [break] ...window glass.
Prabhupada: That is called maya. (everyone laughs) The light is here, but it appears light is there. This is called maya. (aside:) Hare Krsna! Jaya. The real world is the spiritual world, and here it is simply a reflection, but we are taking this is real world, and spiritual, there is no spiritual. Yatha bhasah tatha tamo. So Sankaracarya said that this world is false, jagan mithya. So, but brahma satyam, he gave the same information. But we are taking this jagat satyam, and there is no spiritual world. This is the defect. Just like.... (aside:) That's all right. ...the mirage, the foolish animal goes after the water in the desert, but there is no water. He is bewildered. But that does not means there is no water anywhere else. There is water, but this mirage water is false. Similarly, this material world is false, but that does not mean there is no spiritual world. The water is somewhere else. That you do not know. But you are after this mirage, water in the desert. (Hindi conversation with man, about water) (aside:) Hare Krsna! Yatra tri-sargo'mrsa. Tejo vari-mrdam vinimayo yatra tri-sargo'mrsa dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi [SB 1.1.1]. Vyasadeva offers his respect to the real truth, satyam param dhimahi, where there is no mirage, there is no false world; real world. And Krsna gives the same information: yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. "That is My real abode, where if you go you don't come back. And so long you are in this material world, bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19], you accept one body, suffer or enjoy, there is no enjoyment, suffering, and again accept another body; tatha dehantara praptir." This is going on. Therefore they do not understand when you speak of the other world. But if you speak of this world, that "I'll make you happy in this world," thousands and millions will follow you. And as soon as you say that "I shall make you happy in the next world," "These are all nonsense, crazy fellow!"
Devotee: They think it's too imaginary.
Harikesa: Post-dated check!
Prabhupada: And.. Not post-dated! That is real check, but he does not know. He refuses real check. That is not post-dated; it is real check.
Harikesa: Well, they might say that we're always...
Prabhupada: They might say, that is another thing. (Hindi conversation with man about blind leading the blind)
Lokanatha: [break] ...body is finished, everything is finished.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Lokanatha: When body is finished, everything is finished, so why...
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; that is their folly. If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything is finished, everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Krsna, not any so-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire. What do they say about this statement of Krsna, na hanyate hanyamane sarire, that when your body is finished you are not finished?
Lokanatha: Well they won't accept Krsna either.
Prabhupada: Then, how rascal they are!
Indian man: (indistinct) you know there is soul.
Prabhupada: Ha.
Indian man: Body is finished and atma is emerged. So, what, why the atma suffers next generation for the deeds done by the body in this life?
Prabhupada: Because atma is continuation.
Indian man: Continuation, I understand. Suppose my body does something...
Prabhupada: Not body is doing, you are doing...
Indian man: I am doing, that means...
Prabhupada: Therefore you must suffer.
Indian man: ...my atma is not doing. Atma is...
Prabhupada: Atma is doing; therefore atma is suffering. You are not doing. When the atma is born out of your body, body does not do anything. Then...
Indian man: Atma...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: Atma is amara. So it is eternal, it has no death, no life, no.... It has got a birth, it has got a death that only are superfluous, say only for consolation. But actually it does not die. Body dies, or body destroyed, and that is (indistinct) or suffering. But, when I do something good or bad in this life, see, I am doing.
Prabhupada: You are doing, and therefore you must suffer.
Indian man: But that is not atma. Why atma is...
Prabhupada: ...do not know.
Indian man: (indistinct) ...even (indistinct) atma.
Giriraja: You are the atma.
Indian man: Not atma.
Prabhupada: You do not understand that you are atma. Aham brahmasmi. That you do not understand. You think "I am body." That is nonsense.
Indian man: That point is not clear.
Prabhupada: Why not clear? That means your intelligence is not clear.
Indian man: (spluttering) ...naturally, but listen what I say.
Prabhupada: So, the atma, that is stated in the Bhagavata, antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah saririnah [Bg. 2.18]. Nityasyoktah, nityasyoktah, saririnah. Saririnah means the soul who possesses this body, he is nitya. So, you have to enjoy or suffer the reaction of your activities. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. You have got a type of body on account of your activities.
Indian man: But how atma... Suppose I am doing some sins? So how atma can be controlling. Suffering...
Prabhupada: You are doing sin, you have to control.
Kirtanananda: What does the Lord mean in Bhagavad-gita when He says that only the modes of material nature act...
Prabhupada: You are committing sinful life, so you have to rectify yourself.
Indian man: He is the controller of my body, atma is the controller of my...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: So if I am doing sins, you mean to say, that atma is doing because that is his responsibility.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: If manager does..., if the worker does something wrong, the manager is indirectly responsible.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Why do you say manager? You are doing...
Indian man: Yes, but suppose...
Prabhupada: No "I suppose." That is not suppose. You are doing sinful activities or pious activities. It is you, atma, jivatma.
Indian man: So that means jivatma, he is...
Prabhupada: Responsible...
Indian man: ...responsible for any good or bad deeds for my life?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: Because he's controller of the body. So he's responsible.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bodies only means, suppose you are motorcar, you are driving this way or that way, the motorcar is not driving you. You are driving the motorcar.
Indian man: Huh huh.
Kirtanananda: What does it mean in the Gita, Prabhupada, when Krsna says only the modes of material nature are acting?
Prabhupada: Material nature means because you are in diseased condition in this material world, therefore according to the infection. Just like you have got body, and he has got body. You are suffering from typhoid; he is suffering from smallpox. So you have contaminated the typhoid germs, and he has contaminated smallpox. So the, this body is after all material body, so there is infection of material nature, tri-gunatmaka. Therefore you have to transcend this position of tri-gunatmaka. Then you are cured.
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
braham-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
If you transcend the infection of the three modes of material nature, then you are safe. So long you do not transcend, just like so long we infect some disease, then you must suffer. But if you don't infect, you'll not suffer. That is up to you. There is disease, cholera disease; why shall I go there? Why shall I infect my body in that way? That is up to you. If you don't take precaution, then you will suffer. Jaya.
Sridhara: The soul is pure, part and parcel of Krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes, but he is covered by the material body. The material body is infected by the modes of material nature. Therefore, although he is pure, he is subjected. Just like when there is motor accident, you are separate from the motor, but you have to suffer. Everyone knows that I am separate from the motorcar, but why I am suffering? Because you have got bad car, you must suffer.
Sridhara: That may be because I'm an imperfect driver.
Prabhupada: So you are imperfect; therefore this movement is to make you perfect. If you are not imperfect, then why the movement is there? To make you perfect. Samsiddhim paramam gatah. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. So long you are imperfect, you must suffer in this material world. And as soon as you become perfect, you go back to home, back to.... Because you are imperfect, therefore this movement is necessary. Medicine is there for the patient, not for the person in perfect health. Mudho' yam nabhijanati mam eva param avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. These rascals they do not know Krsna; therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is necessary. Para upakara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says para upa, para upakara. You know yourself what is Krsna, and distribute this knowledge. That is wanted. That is entrusted to the Indians.
bharata bhumite manusya janma hoila jara
janma sarthaka kari kara para upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]
This is wanted.
Sridhara: So the soul is the doer and the nondoer of the activities, sinful activities, or, as the soul is pure, so...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like when you are condemned to death by the judgment of the high-court, so who is the doer, the high-court judge, or you? Huh? Is the high-court judge your enemy, that he has condemned you to death? He has given the judgment; you cannot say he is the doer. You are the doer. So atma and Paramatma. You do, and Paramatma gives judgment. Daiva-netrena. By the superior judgment.
Lokanatha: But it is said all the actions are carried out by the three modes of material nature, and...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Lokanatha: ...the atma is just the non-doer. Atma doesn't do anything.
Prabhupada: No, no. He has put himself to the shelter of material nature. As soon as you come to India or you come to some other country, you must be under the laws of that country. So why do you come here? Krsna bhuliya jiva bhagavan sa kari. You have come to the material world to enjoy, so you must suffer also.
Kirtanananda: We've seen the example used, Prabhupada, that just like a man, if he goes to sleep at night and he dreams that he has committed some murder or some...
Prabhupada: So why does he dream?
Kirtanananda: ...he enjoys or suffers the activities, but actually he is...
Prabhupada: Yes, but why he dreams like that? One is dreaming like that, another is dreaming a different way. That is due to his practice. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Sridhara: People say then that the soul must be impure. If the soul can, not...
Prabhupada: Impure in this sense: that he has come in touch with the impure. And if he becomes untouched with the impure, then he is no more impure. That is described in Bhagavad-gita,
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
Immediately he becomes pure. Krsna says,
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami...
[Bg. 18.66]
"I shall make you immediately pure." Why don't you do that? You want to remain impure, so you must suffer.
Kirtanananda: Therefore everything is situated on desire.
Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. We are desiring to enjoy the sense enjoyment of this material world, then you remain impure. So long you shall desire sense enjoy.... Therefore bhakti means anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11], make zero all your desires, material desires. Desire cannot be zero. Purify your desires. Desire how to serve Krsna. Then it is pure. (aside:) Hare Krsna. You singing daily in the morning, ara na koriho mane asa. Do you know the meaning?
Devotee: "No other desires."
Prabhupada: Yes. Ara na.... guru mukha padma vakhya cittete koriya aikya ara na korioa mane asa. That is purification. A guru says something, and you do something else, then you are desiring something, then you are not pure. Therefore daily you are saying, ara na koriho mane asa. Don't desire anything. Then you remain pure. As soon as you decide that "I shall serve only Krsna," you become pure, immediately. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. You are delivered from all sinful reactions, then how you are impure? You keep that position, pure position, then your life is successful. Ara na koriho... And if you plan something (chuckles) "I am very expert in planning; I shall do this, I shall do that, not serve Krsna," then you remain impure.
Indian man (2): Prabhupada, (Hindi)
Prabhupada: [break] ...ananya-bhak, that is required. Ara-na koriho mane.. ananya-bhak, no diversion of attention.
Indian man (3): [break] ...you see, I am now trying to learn (indistinct) something, and I find that by doing bhakti, ah, what you call puja, saguna puja, whenever I come to your place, instead of seeing the Krsna murti, I always see the lingam, pure lingam. Why this phenomena going on?
Prabhupada: You are a great devotee of Lord Siva, so that's all right.
Indian man (3): I have already, seeing the.... My parents may be doing, I have not done much except knowing only a few lines of the...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You remain a devotee of Lord Siva. There is no harm.
Indian man (3): And when I have been doing some other saguna puja, another is seen always.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): Suppose I am doing...
Prabhupada: Many, many...
Indian man (3): ...Sankara pure puja then I am seeing er, Devi.... Like that it is happening. Secondly, so how to go to nirguna state? That is my difficulty.
Prabhupada: Sa gunan sama...
Indian man (3): And whenever I am praying with closed eyes, I see something, but with opened eyes I don't see anything.
Prabhupada: That is given in the Bhagavad-gita. That you have to.... Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sa gunan. Samatitya. So you have to adopt this means, then you will.
Indian man (3): How to from sa guna I do not know.
Prabhupada: Mam ca yo' vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena ya sevate [Bg. 14.26].
Indian man (3): Sanskrit, I don't know much Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Anyone who worships Krsna, avyabhicarena, without any change, he becomes nirguna.
Indian man (3): So saguna is necessary for going to nirguna?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Indian man (3): Saguna is...
Prabhupada: No, not necessary. But if you don't worship unflinchingly Krsna, then you remain in the saguna platform.
Indian man (3): Hm, I see.
Prabhupada: Here it is clearly said, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. So you have to adopt the means; then you become nirguna. And if you don't adopt, then you remain saguna.
Indian man (3): Yes, and I can come to you and just, you explain me what is the way...
Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sagun.. saguna...
Indian man (3): Which sloka from Gita, it is from Gita? Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is ninth chapter.
Indian man (3): Then I'll read it again and see if whether I can follow something. Thank you.
Prabhupada: Krsna clearly says, sa gunan, sa gunan samatitya, sama upena titya, perfectly transcending, this is the process.
Indian man (3): I see. We cannot do with the closed eyes.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and the bhakti-yoga? What is the...
Prabhupada: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premanjanacchurita-bhakti-
Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten.
Prabhupada: No.
Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.
Prabhupada: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don't remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes matharani (sweeper woman). Matharani is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not matharani, she is Radharani. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is matharani," that is your mistake. She remains Radharani. Just like mother Yasoda is binding Krsna, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The mother Yasoda is binding; He still remains the supreme. Therefore mother Yasoda became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Krsna saw that "My mother is perspiring now, she is exhausted," "All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her." (pause) That's not a fact, otherwise how Krsna says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]." So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguna. (indistinct) Huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with me?
Saurabha: About the apartment?
Prabhupada: Yes. (end)
Prabhupada: No, there will be no medical service in the building. (Hindi to some men) These quarters there is no such building, huh? Our, this pattern?
Saurabha: No. Not in Bombay, nowhere in Bombay.
Prabhupada: (chuckling) That's very good.
Harikesa: There will be after this, though.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: After this there will be...
Devotee: Imitation. (Prabhupada laughs)
Lokanatha: There should not be any medical service in the building, new building, so what about there should be any other place on the land, or they should not...?
Prabhupada: That we shall do conveniently. It is not very urgent. When there is spare room-then. Medical service is to cure the material disease, not this temporary headache and stomachache. There are so many medical services for these things, but where is the medical service for curing bhava-roga, material disease? That is wanted. (aside:) Hare Krsna! Medical service does not give any guarantee that there will be no more disease. Our service is guarantee, there will be no more birth, death, old age and disease. That is the difference. (pause) Mauritius, I was suffering so much from dental pain, I never went to the dentist; I invented my medicine, and it cured. (laughter)
Harikesa: Now everyone else is using it here.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Harikesa: I taught them all, and they're all using it now. Or they will all be using it.
Prabhupada: They like it?
Harikesa: Oh, yes. The best.
Prabhupada: Huh? The only defect is that all the ingredients are not very finely powdered. If it is very finely powdered, then it will be very nice.
Lokanatha: You are perfect in all respects. You are your own doctor...
Prabhupada: I am not doctor, but I created many doctors. [break] (to Dr. Patel:) Hare Krsna! Jaya. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: (Hindi: ap lok hamye sa chaye) I have decided not to come today with you. Because I was driven away yesterday morning by your men. I came to look after you.
Prabhupada: How is that?
Dr. Patel: God only knows. They have behaved so very badly, be three of us. And you were not sleeping even, because I wanted to give you the prescription, so I ran from my house.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hamsaduta: No, I was not...
Dr. Patel: No, you were not.
Harisauri: No, I was there. You had just taken rest in the bedroom, so I thought it best not to disturb you.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, I was taking rest.
Dr. Patel: I wrote out the prescription and gave it.
Prabhupada: Yes, I got that. Huh.
Lokanatha: So you can come?
Prabhupada: So I was resting.
Dr. Patel: No, I won't come. I want only humble obeisances today. Thank you very much. (leaves)
Prabhupada: So he wanted to see me?
Harisauri: He brought two of his friends in as well. I thought he was going to create such a commotion, and you had just taken rest, so I said better to let you rest and not disturb you.
Prabhupada: (to passerby) Hare Krsna! (japa)
Lokanatha: All over the world, the Ratha-yatra attracts thousands of people, but in Bombay we'll not have Jagannatha Deities, so how could we have Ratha-yatra and attract people? (indistinct) give some correction.
Prabhupada: ...our temple then.... [break]
Giriraja: A question was raised about Lord Rama worshiping Siva.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Giriraja: At one of the programs, somebody raised the question that we cited that Lord Siva is worshiping Krsna, that he is a Vaisnava. So that person replied that Lord Rama also worshiped Siva. So he wanted to know the explanation.
Lokanatha: You explained yesterday.
Prabhupada: Sometimes Krsna is chastised by mother Yasoda. So how is that? The Supreme Personality of Godhead is being chastised by mother Yasoda?
Giriraja: He likes to be chastised. It's part of the relationship.
Prabhupada: Similarly, He likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here?
Harikesa: That later-on Ramayana has caused some havoc.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Harikesa: That later-on interpretation?
Prabhupada: Yes, the Saivaites, they want to make Lord Siva the exalted Supreme Person. In South India there is good propaganda. That is always going on.
Lokanatha: When Lord Siva says in Puranas that mukti-pradapah sarvesam visnu... (sic)
Prabhupada: Hm?
Lokanatha: Purana, the same Lord Siva says there is no other liberated besides Visnu.
Devotee: ...engagement, one devotee commented that the reason that Lord Rama worshiped Lord Siva was because He wanted to kill Ravana and Ravana was a devotee of Siva, so Lord Rama worshiped Siva in that respect.
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?
Harikesa: He said that because Lord Siva was, ah, excuse me, Ravana was a devotee of Lord Siva, that in order that Lord Ramacandra could kill Ravana, He worshiped Siva.
Kirtanananda: He wanted to take permission of him, so they say. Rama wanted to take permission from Siva...
Prabhupada: So Siva is so rascal that he gave permission? That means they are trying to prove Siva is a rascal. (devotees laugh) Because he gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use of his, of one becoming Siva's devotee? If such a rascal that one can take his permission to kill his devotee, so what is the use of becoming a devotee of such a rascal? Huh?
Harikesa: He protected Banasura.
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that? That means that proving that Siva is a rascal. He gave permission to kill his devotee. Then what is the use? Then nobody should become Siva's devotee. That is the conclusion. Because he gives permission to somebody else to kill his devotee. They are trying to prove Lord Siva is a rascal. What do you think? Huh? If I want your permission, please give me your permission, I shall kill your son, and if you say, "Yes, I give my permission," then are you not a rascal? By this example they are making Lord Siva a rascal, that he has no common sense even.
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, if this proposition is there, that Lord Siva gives permission for killing his devotee, then who will become his devotee? Huh? Is it not?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupada: No sane man will become his devotee. All the manufactured foolish statements, just see. Any commonsense man will immediately say, "Then Siva is a rascal; he cannot give protection to his devotee." What do you think? Huh?
Kirtanananda: Of course, Srila Prabhupada, does one have to give protection to their devotee if they break the law? Just like if you have a child, and he murders someone, isn't he supposed to be punished? So if someone goes against the Supreme Personality of Godhead, even if you are a devotee, shouldn't Siva concur?
Prabhupada: No, no. That is another thing. This proposal, that because Lord Ramacandra approached Lord Siva to kill Ravana, and he gave permission, although Ravana was his great devotee. Then what is the use of becoming devotee of Lord Siva? He gives permission. Huh? Is that very reasonable proposal? If I ask your permission that I shall kill your son, will you give permission? No. Then? So Lord Siva gives permission to Lord Ramacandra, "Yes, You can kill Ravana," then what is the use of becoming his devotee?
Harikesa: I think Dr. Patel would say that it's not fair, you have fired the opposition.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Harikesa: It's not fair. You have completely destroyed the opposition. (Prabhupada laughs) There is no question of fight.
Prabhupada: The actual fact is that Lord Siva did not give permission, but he did not go to protect Ravana, because he knew that it was impossible to give him protection. That is summarized in Bengali, rakhe krsna mare ke, mare krsna rakhe ke. If Krsna kills somebody, wants to kill somebody, nobody can give him protection. That is the conclusion. And if Krsna protects somebody, nobody can kill him. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. Huh? He was protected by Lord Nrsimhadeva. Who can kill?
Kirtanananda: Why did Lord Siva try to protect Banasura?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: Didn't Lord Siva try to protect Banasura?
Prabhupada: Yes. You must try, when your son is in danger, you must try. That is natural. That is not uncommon. You can save or not save, that is a different thing. But it is you duty, if somebody is under your protection, you must try to save him, even at the risk of your life. That is real protector.
Lokanatha: Do you have plans, Srila Prabhupada, to comment on Ramayana in future?
Prabhupada: Hm? First of all finish my Bhagavatam, then we shall talk of other things.
Indian man: Lord Brahma took away the cows and the cowherd boys that Krsna was playing with. At that time Krsna expanded Himself just to (indistinct) about a year or so that these cows are all Krsna expansions, but the gopis were so much (indistinct) to (indistinct) Krsna's (indistinct). Now he started, he doubted that gopis are (indistinct) with Krsna because these cowherds and ah, they are part and parcel of Krsna only, so he was not...
Prabhupada: Hm. That is called, they were playing the role of human being. (pause)
Indian man: ...would be nearing the portion where that (indistinct) is there. I told Giriraja prabhu, when you were sick, that fever is there, you were having fever, so I...
Prabhupada: No, I had no fever.
Indian man: When you went to Vrndavana? Some...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian man: So I was telling my wife, she said that you read that Bhagavatam, where that Ban(asura) is there, that Siva means having, producing jvara, fever, so Visnujvara is cold only, so that Visnujvara will bring down the fever. So you were just reading more Bhagavatam only, when you are sick. Anybody who is suffering from fever means you read such and such a portion, so it should come down.
Prabhupada: No, Visnu should not be utilized for curing your fever. (laughter) That is not bhakti. That is business.
Indian man: So you are always reaching for bhakti point. That is too high for mundane people to reach.
Prabhupada: That is bhakti, high, highest. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. If you have real bhakti, then you can understand Vaisnava. To know Visnu-avan manasa-gocara: it is very difficult.
manusyanam saharesu
kascit yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascid mam vetti tattvatah
[Bg. 7.3]
To understand Visnu -- very, very difficult. And.... If, but you can understand Visnu by bhakti. So bhakti is so easy thing.
Kirtanananda: How about if a disciple wants to use the help of Visnu for the spiritual master?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: A disciple wants to take the aid of Visnu for serving the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Hah. That is nice. That is for curing Visnu's representative. When we were in danger, there was so much obstruction for constructing the temple, and we prayed to Krsna that it should stopped. We prayed to Krsna, "Please give your protection." That is for Visnu's purpose. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, arto 'rtharthi jijnasur: when one is in distress, he comes to Krsna. So that is not pure bhakti. Pure bhakti means, "I shall not take a farthing from Krsna; I shall give everything to Krsna." That is pure. "I shall not take any return from Krsna." Prahlada Maharaja says, "I am not a merchant, that for my service I take some return for it." No. But sometimes when, since we are not pure devotees, we have no other alternative than to beg Krsna for some material benefit. That is also good. They have said, catur-vidha bhajante mam, sukrtinah, that pious. Although they are not pure devotee, but they are pious. But the duskrtinah, they do not approach Him. That is the difference.
catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino'rjuna
arto 'rtharthi jijnasur
jnani ca bharatarsabha
[Bg. 7.16]
They are also good, pious. And one who does not go to Visnu for any reason, they are most sinful. Here, although he goes to Visnu for some material benefit, he is pious. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Those who are impious, sinful, they do not go. (comes to a part of beach covered by waves) So I will have to jump like this?
Harikesa: No, we made the wrong turn.
Lokanatha: [break] ...window glass.
Prabhupada: That is called maya. (everyone laughs) The light is here, but it appears light is there. This is called maya. (aside:) Hare Krsna! Jaya. The real world is the spiritual world, and here it is simply a reflection, but we are taking this is real world, and spiritual, there is no spiritual. Yatha bhasah tatha tamo. So Sankaracarya said that this world is false, jagan mithya. So, but brahma satyam, he gave the same information. But we are taking this jagat satyam, and there is no spiritual world. This is the defect. Just like.... (aside:) That's all right. ...the mirage, the foolish animal goes after the water in the desert, but there is no water. He is bewildered. But that does not means there is no water anywhere else. There is water, but this mirage water is false. Similarly, this material world is false, but that does not mean there is no spiritual world. The water is somewhere else. That you do not know. But you are after this mirage, water in the desert. (Hindi conversation with man, about water) (aside:) Hare Krsna! Yatra tri-sargo'mrsa. Tejo vari-mrdam vinimayo yatra tri-sargo'mrsa dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi [SB 1.1.1]. Vyasadeva offers his respect to the real truth, satyam param dhimahi, where there is no mirage, there is no false world; real world. And Krsna gives the same information: yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. "That is My real abode, where if you go you don't come back. And so long you are in this material world, bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19], you accept one body, suffer or enjoy, there is no enjoyment, suffering, and again accept another body; tatha dehantara praptir." This is going on. Therefore they do not understand when you speak of the other world. But if you speak of this world, that "I'll make you happy in this world," thousands and millions will follow you. And as soon as you say that "I shall make you happy in the next world," "These are all nonsense, crazy fellow!"
Devotee: They think it's too imaginary.
Harikesa: Post-dated check!
Prabhupada: And.. Not post-dated! That is real check, but he does not know. He refuses real check. That is not post-dated; it is real check.
Harikesa: Well, they might say that we're always...
Prabhupada: They might say, that is another thing. (Hindi conversation with man about blind leading the blind)
Lokanatha: [break] ...body is finished, everything is finished.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Lokanatha: When body is finished, everything is finished, so why...
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. You were a child; that body is finished. So you have got a different body. But this simple truth they do not understand; that is their folly. If the body is finished, then why you were a child, you have become a young man? Body is finished, but not everything is finished, everything is there. Only the body is finished. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. This is explained. So when the body is finished, that does not mean that you are finished. You have to accept another body. That is real truth, and it is spoken by Krsna, not any so-called scientist. The Supreme Person says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire. What do they say about this statement of Krsna, na hanyate hanyamane sarire, that when your body is finished you are not finished?
Lokanatha: Well they won't accept Krsna either.
Prabhupada: Then, how rascal they are!
Indian man: (indistinct) you know there is soul.
Prabhupada: Ha.
Indian man: Body is finished and atma is emerged. So, what, why the atma suffers next generation for the deeds done by the body in this life?
Prabhupada: Because atma is continuation.
Indian man: Continuation, I understand. Suppose my body does something...
Prabhupada: Not body is doing, you are doing...
Indian man: I am doing, that means...
Prabhupada: Therefore you must suffer.
Indian man: ...my atma is not doing. Atma is...
Prabhupada: Atma is doing; therefore atma is suffering. You are not doing. When the atma is born out of your body, body does not do anything. Then...
Indian man: Atma...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: Atma is amara. So it is eternal, it has no death, no life, no.... It has got a birth, it has got a death that only are superfluous, say only for consolation. But actually it does not die. Body dies, or body destroyed, and that is (indistinct) or suffering. But, when I do something good or bad in this life, see, I am doing.
Prabhupada: You are doing, and therefore you must suffer.
Indian man: But that is not atma. Why atma is...
Prabhupada: ...do not know.
Indian man: (indistinct) ...even (indistinct) atma.
Giriraja: You are the atma.
Indian man: Not atma.
Prabhupada: You do not understand that you are atma. Aham brahmasmi. That you do not understand. You think "I am body." That is nonsense.
Indian man: That point is not clear.
Prabhupada: Why not clear? That means your intelligence is not clear.
Indian man: (spluttering) ...naturally, but listen what I say.
Prabhupada: So, the atma, that is stated in the Bhagavata, antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah saririnah [Bg. 2.18]. Nityasyoktah, nityasyoktah, saririnah. Saririnah means the soul who possesses this body, he is nitya. So, you have to enjoy or suffer the reaction of your activities. Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. You have got a type of body on account of your activities.
Indian man: But how atma... Suppose I am doing some sins? So how atma can be controlling. Suffering...
Prabhupada: You are doing sin, you have to control.
Kirtanananda: What does the Lord mean in Bhagavad-gita when He says that only the modes of material nature act...
Prabhupada: You are committing sinful life, so you have to rectify yourself.
Indian man: He is the controller of my body, atma is the controller of my...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: So if I am doing sins, you mean to say, that atma is doing because that is his responsibility.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: If manager does..., if the worker does something wrong, the manager is indirectly responsible.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Why do you say manager? You are doing...
Indian man: Yes, but suppose...
Prabhupada: No "I suppose." That is not suppose. You are doing sinful activities or pious activities. It is you, atma, jivatma.
Indian man: So that means jivatma, he is...
Prabhupada: Responsible...
Indian man: ...responsible for any good or bad deeds for my life?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: Because he's controller of the body. So he's responsible.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bodies only means, suppose you are motorcar, you are driving this way or that way, the motorcar is not driving you. You are driving the motorcar.
Indian man: Huh huh.
Kirtanananda: What does it mean in the Gita, Prabhupada, when Krsna says only the modes of material nature are acting?
Prabhupada: Material nature means because you are in diseased condition in this material world, therefore according to the infection. Just like you have got body, and he has got body. You are suffering from typhoid; he is suffering from smallpox. So you have contaminated the typhoid germs, and he has contaminated smallpox. So the, this body is after all material body, so there is infection of material nature, tri-gunatmaka. Therefore you have to transcend this position of tri-gunatmaka. Then you are cured.
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
braham-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
If you transcend the infection of the three modes of material nature, then you are safe. So long you do not transcend, just like so long we infect some disease, then you must suffer. But if you don't infect, you'll not suffer. That is up to you. There is disease, cholera disease; why shall I go there? Why shall I infect my body in that way? That is up to you. If you don't take precaution, then you will suffer. Jaya.
Sridhara: The soul is pure, part and parcel of Krsna...
Prabhupada: Yes, but he is covered by the material body. The material body is infected by the modes of material nature. Therefore, although he is pure, he is subjected. Just like when there is motor accident, you are separate from the motor, but you have to suffer. Everyone knows that I am separate from the motorcar, but why I am suffering? Because you have got bad car, you must suffer.
Sridhara: That may be because I'm an imperfect driver.
Prabhupada: So you are imperfect; therefore this movement is to make you perfect. If you are not imperfect, then why the movement is there? To make you perfect. Samsiddhim paramam gatah. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. So long you are imperfect, you must suffer in this material world. And as soon as you become perfect, you go back to home, back to.... Because you are imperfect, therefore this movement is necessary. Medicine is there for the patient, not for the person in perfect health. Mudho' yam nabhijanati mam eva param avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. These rascals they do not know Krsna; therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is necessary. Para upakara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says para upa, para upakara. You know yourself what is Krsna, and distribute this knowledge. That is wanted. That is entrusted to the Indians.
bharata bhumite manusya janma hoila jara
janma sarthaka kari kara para upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]
This is wanted.
Sridhara: So the soul is the doer and the nondoer of the activities, sinful activities, or, as the soul is pure, so...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like when you are condemned to death by the judgment of the high-court, so who is the doer, the high-court judge, or you? Huh? Is the high-court judge your enemy, that he has condemned you to death? He has given the judgment; you cannot say he is the doer. You are the doer. So atma and Paramatma. You do, and Paramatma gives judgment. Daiva-netrena. By the superior judgment.
Lokanatha: But it is said all the actions are carried out by the three modes of material nature, and...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Lokanatha: ...the atma is just the non-doer. Atma doesn't do anything.
Prabhupada: No, no. He has put himself to the shelter of material nature. As soon as you come to India or you come to some other country, you must be under the laws of that country. So why do you come here? Krsna bhuliya jiva bhagavan sa kari. You have come to the material world to enjoy, so you must suffer also.
Kirtanananda: We've seen the example used, Prabhupada, that just like a man, if he goes to sleep at night and he dreams that he has committed some murder or some...
Prabhupada: So why does he dream?
Kirtanananda: ...he enjoys or suffers the activities, but actually he is...
Prabhupada: Yes, but why he dreams like that? One is dreaming like that, another is dreaming a different way. That is due to his practice. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Sridhara: People say then that the soul must be impure. If the soul can, not...
Prabhupada: Impure in this sense: that he has come in touch with the impure. And if he becomes untouched with the impure, then he is no more impure. That is described in Bhagavad-gita,
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
Immediately he becomes pure. Krsna says,
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami...
[Bg. 18.66]
"I shall make you immediately pure." Why don't you do that? You want to remain impure, so you must suffer.
Kirtanananda: Therefore everything is situated on desire.
Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. We are desiring to enjoy the sense enjoyment of this material world, then you remain impure. So long you shall desire sense enjoy.... Therefore bhakti means anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11], make zero all your desires, material desires. Desire cannot be zero. Purify your desires. Desire how to serve Krsna. Then it is pure. (aside:) Hare Krsna. You singing daily in the morning, ara na koriho mane asa. Do you know the meaning?
Devotee: "No other desires."
Prabhupada: Yes. Ara na.... guru mukha padma vakhya cittete koriya aikya ara na korioa mane asa. That is purification. A guru says something, and you do something else, then you are desiring something, then you are not pure. Therefore daily you are saying, ara na koriho mane asa. Don't desire anything. Then you remain pure. As soon as you decide that "I shall serve only Krsna," you become pure, immediately. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. You are delivered from all sinful reactions, then how you are impure? You keep that position, pure position, then your life is successful. Ara na koriho... And if you plan something (chuckles) "I am very expert in planning; I shall do this, I shall do that, not serve Krsna," then you remain impure.
Indian man (2): Prabhupada, (Hindi)
Prabhupada: [break] ...ananya-bhak, that is required. Ara-na koriho mane.. ananya-bhak, no diversion of attention.
Indian man (3): [break] ...you see, I am now trying to learn (indistinct) something, and I find that by doing bhakti, ah, what you call puja, saguna puja, whenever I come to your place, instead of seeing the Krsna murti, I always see the lingam, pure lingam. Why this phenomena going on?
Prabhupada: You are a great devotee of Lord Siva, so that's all right.
Indian man (3): I have already, seeing the.... My parents may be doing, I have not done much except knowing only a few lines of the...
Prabhupada: That's all right. You remain a devotee of Lord Siva. There is no harm.
Indian man (3): And when I have been doing some other saguna puja, another is seen always.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): Suppose I am doing...
Prabhupada: Many, many...
Indian man (3): ...Sankara pure puja then I am seeing er, Devi.... Like that it is happening. Secondly, so how to go to nirguna state? That is my difficulty.
Prabhupada: Sa gunan sama...
Indian man (3): And whenever I am praying with closed eyes, I see something, but with opened eyes I don't see anything.
Prabhupada: That is given in the Bhagavad-gita. That you have to.... Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sa gunan. Samatitya. So you have to adopt this means, then you will.
Indian man (3): How to from sa guna I do not know.
Prabhupada: Mam ca yo' vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena ya sevate [Bg. 14.26].
Indian man (3): Sanskrit, I don't know much Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Anyone who worships Krsna, avyabhicarena, without any change, he becomes nirguna.
Indian man (3): So saguna is necessary for going to nirguna?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Indian man (3): Saguna is...
Prabhupada: No, not necessary. But if you don't worship unflinchingly Krsna, then you remain in the saguna platform.
Indian man (3): Hm, I see.
Prabhupada: Here it is clearly said, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. So you have to adopt the means; then you become nirguna. And if you don't adopt, then you remain saguna.
Indian man (3): Yes, and I can come to you and just, you explain me what is the way...
Prabhupada: (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg. 14.26]. Sagun.. saguna...
Indian man (3): Which sloka from Gita, it is from Gita? Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is ninth chapter.
Indian man (3): Then I'll read it again and see if whether I can follow something. Thank you.
Prabhupada: Krsna clearly says, sa gunan, sa gunan samatitya, sama upena titya, perfectly transcending, this is the process.
Indian man (3): I see. We cannot do with the closed eyes.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian man (3): With open eyes, why we cannot do the prayers and the bhakti-yoga? What is the...
Prabhupada: For the disturbed mind. Those who are settled up, they can see always, open or closed. Premanjanacchurita-bhakti-
Indian man (3): But in that case, sir, material duties, they are forgotten.
Prabhupada: No.
Indian man (3): Then how can you avoid that, because conflict takes place.
Prabhupada: No, it will be, there will be no more material duty. When you wash the shoes of your son, that is love, that is not a shoe washer; you don't remain a shoe washer. You remain in love with your child. Hm? A mother takes care of the child, washes, when he passes stool, that does not mean she becomes matharani (sweeper woman). Matharani is material. But when the mother out of love washes the child, she is not matharani, she is Radharani. (everyone laughs) And if you conclude, "Ah, she is washing the stool of the son. She is matharani," that is your mistake. She remains Radharani. Just like mother Yasoda is binding Krsna, that does not mean that His supremacy is lost. The mother Yasoda is binding; He still remains the supreme. Therefore mother Yasoda became exhausted to try to bind Him. (laughs) And when Krsna saw that "My mother is perspiring now, she is exhausted," "All right, let Me agree to be bound up by her." (pause) That's not a fact, otherwise how Krsna says, "Anyone who is engaged in My devotional service, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]." So this is a mistake to say that devotional service is saguna. (indistinct) Huh? These are one gentleman came to talk with me?
Saurabha: About the apartment?
Prabhupada: Yes. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- December 23, 1975, Bombay
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
