Taking Mystery Out Of Mystic

May 17, 1973

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Svarupa Damodara: I am just collecting what Srila Prabhupada explained, the different acintya-saktis that we observe.Prabhupada: Here the acintya-sakti is working, this mist, fog. You have no power to drive it away. Beyond your power. You can explain with some juggling of words...
Passer-by: Good morning.
Prabhupada: Good morning. ...that "Such chemicals, such molecules, such this, that," there are so many things. But (laughing) you have no power to drive it away.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. They have no explanation how the mist is formed. They call...
Prabhupada: That you can do. That is, I can do also. It is not very great credit. But if you know how it is formed, then counteract it.
Svarupa Damodara: We know how it is formed.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you know, then you discover, counteracting. Just like formerly, in the warfare the atomic brahmastra was thrown. On the other side... brahmastra means excessive heat. So they caused something, they transformed into water. Because after heat, there must be water. So where is that science?
Svarupa Damodara: It is just like milk. Milk looks white, but it is just water. They call it, it's a colloidal suspension of proteins, these caseins, in water. So similarly, this fog is just a colloidal suspension of water in the air.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you create some fire. It will be immediately driven away. Water can be driven away by fire. So you create. That you cannot. You just shot one bomb. There will be some heat, and all the mist will go away. Do it.
Karandhara: That would blow up the planet. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Water can be counteracted by fire or air. Everyone knows it. So you do it, suspension. So this is for you mystic power. You can talk all nonsense, but you cannot act against it. Therefore it is mystic power. So similarly, there are so many things. That is acintya-sakti. You cannot think of even. By nature's way, immediately the sun rises -- no more mist. All finished. A little temperature increase of the sun, all finished. Niharam iva bhaskarah. This example is given in the Bhagavata. Nihara, this is called nihara. Just like nihara is immediately dissipated by bhaskara, by the sun, similarly, if one can awaken his dormant devotion, then all finished, all his reaction of sinful activities, finished. Niharam iva bhaskarah. You just create... You calculate sun is composition of this chemical, that chemical. Just create one sun and throw it. Simply theoretical future, bluff and juggling of words, that's not good.
Svarupa Damodara: That is what the research means. Research means to understand what was not known before.
Prabhupada: Yes. Research means you admit that you are all fools and rascals. Research meant for whom? Who does not know. Otherwise where is the question of research? You do not know. You admit that. So so many mystic powers are there. You do not know how it is being done. Therefore you have to accept inconceivable power. And without accepting this principle of inconceivable power, there is no meaning of God. Not like that Bala-yogi became a God. So these are for the rascals, fools. But those who are intelligent, they will stress the inconceivable power. Just like we accept Krsna as God -- inconceivable power. We accept Rama -- inconceivable power. Not so cheaply. One rascal comes and says, "I am incarnation of God." Another rascal accepts. It is not like that. "Ramakrishna is God." We do not accept. We must see the inconceivable mystic power. Just like Krsna, as a child, lifted a hill. This is inconceivable mystic power. Ramacandra, He constructed a bridge of stone without pillar. The stone began to float: "Come on." So that is an inconceivable power. And because you cannot adjust this inconceivable power, when they are described, you say, "Oh, these are all stories." What is called? Mythology. But these great, great sages, Valmiki and Vyasadeva and other acaryas, they simply wasted their time in writing mythology? Such learned scholars? And they have not interpreted that it is mythology. They have accepted it as actual fact. There was forest fire. All the friends and cowherd boys, they became disturbed. They began to see towards Krsna: "Krsna, what to do?" "All right." He simply swallowed up the whole fire. This is inconceivable mystic power. That is God. Aisvarya-vairagya-yaso-'vabhodha-virya-sriya. These six opulences in full. That is God. That inconceivable power, inconceivable energy or mystic power, we have got also. Very minute quantity. So many things are going on within our body. We cannot explain. The same example. My nails are coming exactly in the form. Although it is spoiled by disease, again it is coming. I do not know what machinery is going on, and the nail is coming, exactly fitting the position and everything. That is coming from my body. So that is mystic power. Even it is mystic power for me and to the doctors, everyone... They cannot explain.
Krsna-kanti: The doctors are marveling at the complex nature of the human brain. They are amazed.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. But they are rascal. It is not the brain that is working. It is the spirit soul that is working. The same thing: the computer machine. The rascal will think that a computer machine is working. No. The man is working. He pushes the button, then it works. Otherwise, what is the value of this machine? You keep the machine for thousands of years, it will not work. When another man will come, put the button, then it will work. So who is working? The machine is working or the man is working? And the man is also another machine. And it is working due to the presence of Paramatma, God. Therefore, ultimately, God is working. A dead man cannot work. So how long a man remains living? So long the Paramatma is there, atma is there. Even the atma is there, if Paramatma does not give him intelligence, he cannot work. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. God is giving me intelligence, "You put this button." Then I put this button. So ultimately Krsna is working. Another, untrained man cannot come and work on it because there is no intelligence. And a particular man who is trained up, he can work. So these things are going on. Ultimately comes to Krsna. What you are researching, what you are talking, that is also Krsna is doing. Krsna is giving you in... You, you prayed for this facility to Krsna. Krsna is giving you. Sometimes you find accidentally the experiment is successful. So when Krsna sees that you are so much harassed in experimental, "All right do it." Just like Yasoda Ma was trying to tie Krsna, but she could not do. But when Krsna agreed, it was possible. Similarly, this accident means Krsna helps you: "All right, you have worked so hard, take this result." Everything is Krsna. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Everything is coming from Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: They say, "Krsna didn't give me the proper steps how to do the experiments."
Prabhupada: Yes, he gives you. Otherwise how you are doing it. Whatever you are doing, that is by Krsna's grace. And when you are still favorable, then Krsna will give you more facilities. Krsna will give you facility, will favor you, as much as you desire, not more than that. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva... As much proportionately you surrender to Krsna, the intelligence will come. If you fully surrender, then full intelligence will come. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Wet? (Asking about the ground)
Svarupa Damodara: No. Little wet, but not much.
Prabhupada: Krsna says, "You fully surrender. I give you full protection." Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. He will give you full intelligence. [break] ...these facts in Krsna consciousness. That will be our great success when the scientific world will admit. Let them admit simply. Then our Krsna consciousness movement will (be) great success. You simply admit, "Yes, there is God and mystic power." Then our movement is very successful. And that's a fact. Simply talking like a nonsense amongst the nonsense, that is not a very great credit. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. One blind man is leading other blind man. What is the value of such? They are all blind. And so long one remains blind and rascal, he does not accept God. This is the test. As soon as we see that he does not accept God, he is blind, rascal, fool, whatever you can call. Take it for granted, however, whatever he may be. He's a rascal. On this principle we can challenge so many big, big chemist, philosopher, whoever comes to us. We say, "You are demon." The other chemist came, you brought him, that Indian?
Svarupa Damodara: Hm. Chouri.(?)
Prabhupada: Chouri. (laughing) So I told him that "You are a demon." But he was not angry. He admitted. And all his argument was refuted. Perhaps you remember.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, in fact, he was telling that "Krsna didn't give me all the procedures, steps, how to do the experiment." He was saying like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why shall I give you? You are a rascal, you are against Krsna, why Krsna will give you facility? If you are against Krsna and you want the credit without Krsna, that's not possible. You must be submissive first of all. Then Krsna will give you all facilities. Just like we dare to face any chemist, any scientist, any philosopher. Why? On the strength of Krsna, we believe that "There is Krsna. When I shall talk with him, Krsna will give give me intelligence." This is the basics. Otherwise, from qualification, standard, they are very much qualified. We are common laymen before them. But how do we challenge them? Because we know. Just like a small child He can challenge a very big man because he knows, "My father is there." He is catching the hand of the father, and he's sure that "Nobody can do anything to me."
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, I want to make sure the meaning of Tad apy aphalatam jatam. Tesam atmabhimaninam.
Prabhupada: Tad apy aphalatam jatam. Tesam atmabhiman..., balakanam anasritya govinda-carana-dvayam.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. "The human form of life becomes spoiled for those..."
Prabhupada: Yes. "Who do not try to understand Krsna consciousness. Simply he dies like animal." That's all. Just like the cats and dogs, they also take birth. They eat, sleep, and beget children, and die. The human life is like that.
Svarupa Damodara: Jata means the species?
Prabhupada: Jata. Jata means born. Aphalatam jatam. Jata means it becomes futile. Futile. The human form of life becomes futile if he does not accept govinda-carana. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. If he's not convinced that "I worship the original Personality of Godhead Govinda," then he's spoiled. That's all. His life is spoiled.
Svarupa Damodara: Atmabhimaninam means the...
Prabhupada: Atma, dehatma-maninam. "I am this body."
Svarupa Damodara: So those self-centered...
Prabhupada: Self? They have no information of the self. These rascals, they think, "I am this body." Atma means body, atma means self, atma means mind. So this atmabhimani means bodily concept of life. Balaka. Balaka means a fool, child, balaka. Atmabhimaninam balakanam. Those who are under the bodily concept of life, they are like children, fools, or animals.
Svarupa Damodara: So I plan to expound the principle of transmigration through this verse.
Prabhupada: Yes. Transmigration. Bhramadbhih. Bhramadbhih means transmigration, wandering from one body to another. Just like I am here. I have got my this body, a dress, covering. And when I go India, this is not required. So they are taking that the body has evolved like that. But no. Here, under certain condition, I accept this dress. In another place, under certain condition, I accept another dress. So I am the important, not this dress. But these rascals are studying the dress only. That is called atmabhimanam, considering of the dress, body. Balakanam. Just see. They bring here dogs for passing stool. Dog stool is so very much infectious. The diphtheria and other germs, they are grown. But these rascals they do not know. They distribute dog stool everywhere. But cow dung, there is no cow dung. Vedas says cow dung is pure. That is neglected. Dog stool is pure. This is their intelligence. They give signboard: "Littering illegal"?
Karandhara: Yes.
Prabhupada: But dog stool is not illegal. Just see how foolish they are. If you drop a paper on this grass, that is illegal. But you can get your dogs pass stool, it doesn't matter. This is their intelligence. They will not allow if you are bringing one mango from other part of the country, but they will allow dog also bringing so many germs. They do not know. Dog also brings so many germs, infectious germs.
Svarupa Damodara: That is why they were very careful. When the astronauts from the moon, when they come back on the surface of the planet, they thought there might be some germs which they do not know yet. So they put it in quarantine for several days, to make sure that they are...
Prabhupada: First of all make sure whether he had gone there, and then talk of all these things. (laughing) I am not sure they are going there.
Krsna-Kanti: You know they made another blunder.
Prabhupada: That's all right. What is that?
Krsna-Kanti: They made a spaceship that they wanted to orbit around the earth so that they could send men and ship an outpost.
Karandhara: A house, station.
Krsna-Kanti: So they sent it up and it failed. It cost two billion dollars or something, squandered.
Prabhupada: Just see why they are wasting time in that way? Money.
Krsna-Kanti: They were criticized in the paper.
Prabhupada: Fool. Simply childish. Balaka. What are they gaining? For the last, how many years they are trying? For going to the moon planet?
Svarupa Damodara: Russia started in 1957. First sputnik where Gagarin was there...
Prabhupada: Twenty-five years. So they could not get anything, not a single farthing even. Still, they are doing. Just see, obstinacy. Punah punas carvita. This is called chewing the chewed. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. They will never be successful. So I am a layman. When I wrote that Easy Journey? In 1950, 67. How many years?
Karandhara: Six years.
Prabhupada: No, no. Not 67, 57. Sixteen years before. They are all childish. I am a layman. It will never be successful. It is already written there in my Easy Journey to Other Planets. Here also, that, some press reporter asked me in San Francisco, when I landed, "What is your position about this moon planet?" "It is simply a waste of time and energy. That's all. You cannot go there."
Svarupa Damodara: They have very big plan in the future, going to the surface of the Mars planet.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is future. That is all your statement, future. With future hope you become a big man. That is their foolishness.
Svarupa Damodara: Future, about ten years.
Prabhupada: Whatever... It may be one year, but we do not accept such proposition. We want to see what you have done now.
Svarupa Damodara: First of all they have to develop the methods how to do it by a small scale...
Prabhupada: In my childhood I was thinking... The tramcar is going on trolley. So I was thinking I shall stand on the tram line and just take a stick and touch the wire and I will go. I was planning like that. (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: [break] without knowing Krsna, is this a struggle for existence, any activity?
Prabhupada: Yes. Activity without knowing the purpose of it, that is struggle for existence. You must know why you are working so hard. What for I shall work? The aim of life is missing. Na te viduh. They do not know it. Therefore failure, confusion, hopelessness. All the results of this world, hopelessness. Is it not? What is one... Show one result, that it is very successful, hopeful. Just like, say, moon planet-hopelessness. What is there? They spend so much time and money, but what is this? Hopelessness. They do not know. All scientists are working, all politicians are financing, but result is hopelessness. Is it not? Similarly, everything they are doing, but they are so rascal, they will never admit that "We are failure." Still they will stick, "Yes, we are success... Future, in ten years we shall do it. Never mind." I have seen, one man was condemned to death in Allahabad high-court. So the lawyer was assuring, "Don't be disappointed. I shall get you out by appeal. Don't be disappointed." I have seen it. That lawyer was very big lawyer, an Englishman, Mr. Allston. And one man was condemned to death. He killed his servant very mercilessly. And the case was... He was a doctor, medical practitioner. So he was condemned to death. So after the condemnation, when he was coming out of the courtroom, I saw that he was flattering, "Don't be disappointed. I shall get you out by appeal." This is going on. He wants to bluff him, but this is the high-court judgement. How there can be appeal? There may be appeal in the Supreme Court, but he is simply bluffing. Just like medical men. They'll repeatedly give you medicine, "All right, let me try this. This pill you try. This pill you try." They will never admit, "This is hopeless." This is going on. Bluffing, simply bluffing. Cheating, that's all.
Krsna-Kanti: If they admit they are failures, they'll never get any more grants.
Prabhupada: You see. All utopian. One platform... It is called akasa-puspa, akasa-puspa, to get flower from the sky. It is called akasa-puspa. This kind of plan is called akasa-puspa. Akasa-puspa. Or the bakanda-nyaya. Bakanda, the testicle of the bull and the duck, he is expecting, "Here is a fish. It will drop, and I will take it." He is following. Have you seen? In India we have seen many. The bull is going on, on the..., and the baka is going on. And whole day and night, he is after that. "It is a fish, big fish. It will drop and I shall take." Bakanda-nyaya.
Svarupa Damodara: There is also a bird, Srila Prabhupada; it is called heron.
Prabhupada: Heron? I do not know.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. They have long beaks. They also, they are always with the cows.
Prabhupada: That is baka. We call baka.
Svarupa Damodara: They are all the time... They stay mostly in wet lands.
Prabhupada: Yes, bakanda-nyaya.
Svarupa Damodara: The scientists, when we say that "The attempts that you are doing are no good." Then they want to make sure that what I am saying is right.
Prabhupada: Yes, because I see that you are rascal, therefore I am right. You are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are rascal. You don't admit, but I see that you are a rascal. Therefore I am right. This is the argument. You are so rascal that you cannot admit your rascaldom. Just like this moon planet expedition. But I, sixteen years before, I told that these are rascals. Therefore I am right.
Svarupa Damodara: They claim that "We have done so much."
Prabhupada: What have you done? You have simply spoiled money. That's all. In that sense I have done so much. Simply by teaching people, "Chant Hare Krsna," they are coming to such light. What do you think? I have done most wonderful thing than them.
Svarupa Damodara: But even if they do not know during their lifetime, at least, towards the end of their life, at the time of death, then they'll remember that, "I have wasted my life."
Prabhupada: That is warned by Sankaracarya. Vivekananda lamented at the end of his life, that "I have simply wasted my life." He admitted, "I have not given anything." Balakanam. He was after this body, and he was recorded, government record, as political sannyasi. Yes. He had political purpose, but was acting as a sannyasi. Just like Gandhi, "Saintly statesman." He is recorded, "Saintly statesman." He's a statesman, politician, but he was introducing some morality, non-violence, like that. Actually, his philosophy failed. He wanted Hindu-Muslim unity, but it was divided. The Muslim and Hindu divided. He wanted non-violence. He died out of violence. Therefore all his philosophy failed. And Indian independence was achieved not by Gandhi's non-violence method but (by) Subhas Bose's violence method. And he wanted to explain nonviolence from Bhagavad-gita. Just see, another foolishness. Bhagavad-gita is spoken in the battlefield, and he was screwing some meaning to prove his nonviolence.
Svarupa Damodara: In one of the articles by Bharatiya... There's a man called Bharatiya, in... What is (indistinct) university? He was saying that Nirana Subhas Bose, he wanted to join Ramakrishna Mission. Is this true, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: For future. No. Might be. He wanted to join? Why he should join? Why he did not join?
Svarupa Damodara: It was explained that he had a better, great mission, so he should not join, "You should do your..." By that time he was started, fighting for freedom. So he was not allowed...
Prabhupada: So what was that greater mission?
Svarupa Damodara: For independence, fighting.
Prabhupada: No. Why he wanted to join Ramakrishna mission? What is the attraction of Ramakrishna mission? What they have done? Ramakrishna mission, what they have done? The Ramakrishna mission is working here in your country... (end)

 

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Sudras Hear From Scientists

May 13, 1973

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Prabhupada: But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.Paramahamsa: The question I have, Prabhupada is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means sudras. That I have already said.
Paramahamsa: But now they listen more to scientists.
Prabhupada: That means sudra. Sudras are interested to hear from sudra.
Paramahamsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes. That must be, therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by the saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. (laughter)
Paramahamsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Paramahamsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.
Prabhupada: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.
Paramahamsa: But preach first.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: They don't preach.
Prabhupada: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Paramahamsa: A new method of warfare.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a little wet.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupada: Well, the questions... Answers are there in my books.
Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity. Whether there. What is this? Sacrificial arena? (laughter)
Paramahamsa: For children, I think. No? For cooking, yeah. (pause)
Prabhupada: (About tennis players) How people are kept into ignorance. Life is so valuable, and they are wasting time in that way. Life is valuable, how life should be utilized, what is the object of life -- they do not know anything.
Svarupa Damodara: Without knowing that the soul is eternal, everybody would be acting like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-kharah. Go means cows, and kharah means ass. One who is in the, under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge.
Paramahamsa: At least, the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary, whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we suffer also, more than the animals. (pause) So Krsna consciousness movement is not a bogus religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Krsna conscious. (pause) [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance.
Prabhupada: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarupa Damodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupada: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Svarupa Damodara: According to him it is simply by chance.
Prabhupada: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?
Svarupa Damodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re-orient, change as a fashion because of necessity.
Prabhupada: Why? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity?
Paramahamsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance.
Prabhupada: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule?" Is that the cause of excuse?
Svarupa Damodara: That's because of my ignorance.
Prabhupada: That is chance. That is chance. Because I am ignorant, therefore there is chance.
Paramahamsa: It would be just as stupid as saying a beautiful instrument like a car was made by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is the most regrettable condition, that these rascals are getting recognition; talking all foolish, and they are getting recognition.
Svarupa Damodara: It's so strange. When I read that book. He defines the difference between the living and the non-living by a term called teleonomy. I tried to find out in the dictionary and I couldn't find any word like that. But I understood that what he meant was...
Prabhupada: Hyerpolosvel. (Prabhupada's mythical scientific word) (laughter)
Krsna-kanti: He invents his own word jugglery.
Svarupa Damodara: He was trying to present the difference between organic beings and the non-organic beings. So he goes in such a round about fashion just to differentiate.
Prabhupada: Petitio principii. This logic is called petitio principii. He has to prove something, but he is taking his premises from that something. (end)

 

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Science vs. Veda vs. Religion

May 15, 1973

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Prabhupada: ...difficulty for the scientist to understand God? What is their difficulty? We understand God very easily.Svarupa Damodara: They find it very hard to see the spirit, the soul in... It is very doubtful, they say.
Prabhupada: No, no, spirit you see or don't see, that is dif...
Umapati: He studies matter.
Prabhupada: No, that's all right.
Svarupa Damodara: No, once they see the spirit soul, they can detect somehow, then they are definitely convinced.
Prabhupada: So how you can see? It is... The measurement is given, 1/10,000th part of the tip of the hair. So where is your seeing power?
Svarupa Damodara: Still they want to sense it by some...
Prabhupada: Sense, that is... Any rascal can sense that here is living energy. That is spirit soul. Just like if you inject one grain of poison and immediately he dies, does it require how he dies? That one, not one grain. Even one hundredth part of one grain, venomous poison, how it acts? So even nobody can see it, when the snake bites, nobody can see where is that... How he dies?
Svarupa Damodara: They will explain that by..., it blocks some of the metabolic paths...
Prabhupada: That's all right, but it is acting. That is my point. You can explain in your nonsense way, this, so many things. But I see that because that very little portion of poison is there, immediately he dies. Why don't you see the action?
Svarupa Damodara: Just like taking cyanide. Cyanide, they say cyanide blocks the...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, but the thing, we have to see by the effect. Similarly, if the small particle of... Therefore our knowledge is perfect. We take it from Vedas. The small particle of soul, because it is present there, you will see the whole thing is going on nicely.
Karandhara: But they say the soul is subject to material conditions. They are seeing the body as the soul; so they say because it is subject to material conditions, therefore it's not eternal.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maybe material conditions, that is... But soul you have to accept there is soul.
Svarupa Damodara: Once they accept the existence of the soul, then there is not much difficulty. Once they accept this, then automatically they have to accept.
Prabhupada: No, they have to accept. They have no explanation. All they explain foolishly. How the man is living, how there is consciousness, he cannot explain. Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. Consciousness, because the soul is there, if I pinch here, immediately I feel, I am conscious. Throughout the whole skin, I am conscious. Actually the soul is not there. If you cut it, chop it, nobody protests. Why this simple thing they do not understand?
Paramahamsa: That's the soul, Prabhupada, but about God...
Prabhupada: First of all let us understand the soul. Soul is the, a small God, sample God. If you understand the sample, then you can understand the whole thing.
Umapati: Some scientists are claiming that just because they haven't yet discovered how to create life, they are soon to, and...
Prabhupada: What is that?
Umapati: They are in the process of trying to create life.
Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. That we kick out. That we kick on their face. You show what you have got just now. That we don't accept, that "We are trying."A rascal will say, "I am trying to be millionaire." When you become millionaire, then talk. Now you are a poor vagabond. That's all. That we shall accept. What... You are trying. Everyone will say, "I am trying." What you are now? That is our proposition.
Paramahamsa:. At the present they know how to kill very good.
Prabhupada: Yes. Nonsense. "We are trying." That any nonsense will say, "I am trying." What is this? That is not a scientific proposition.
Umapati: Well, the argument that has been presented is that "Well we don't have it now, but soon we're to have it. So..."
Prabhupada: That any rascal will say. What is the difference between you and the rascal? Any rascal will say, that "I am trying to..." What is the use of these scientists? Any rascal will say. Trust no future, however pleasant. You can talk of all pleasant things in future, but you don't trust it. You as you don't trust, because you do not see soul, you don't trust. Why shall I trust you, you rascal, that in future you shall be very great scientist? You do not trust because you do not see. There is no soul. You cannot see. So why shall I trust you? What is the answer? That in future you will be able to do something extraordinary. Why shall I trust you?
Umapati: Give them a lot of credit.
Karandhara: Well they say they have done so much in the past, they have accomplished so much in the past.
Prabhupada: That is all useless. What you have done? You have not given any contribution that there will be no death. The death is there. In the past there was death, and people are dying now. What you have done?
Paramahamsa: Helped death.
Prabhupada: Helped means you have helped to minimize their duration of life. Formerly man was living hundred years. Now they do not live more than sixty, seventy years. That you have helped certainly. What you have helped? A man is dying ordinarily, and you have created atomic energy. You can kill thousands of men. So you have helped only in dying. But you have not helped in living. That is not possible. Then what you have done? Some childish play? What you have done? You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop disease, you cannot stop old age. So what you have done? Formerly people used to become old. Now also, they are becoming old. Formerly people used to die. They are dying now also. Formerly the people used to become diseased. They are becoming diseased. More diseased. More medicine. What you have helped? You have not helped anything in the improvement of the order of the world? What is that help?
Umapati: The same scientists will point to India and say, "Look at all the dying and starving people over there."
Prabhupada: No, no, why Indians? We are talking of the whole world. Why you take the example of the Indians? Indians may be backward. We are talking of you, so forward. What you have done? Indians may be backward. We are not talking of any particular nation or particular people. We are talking of general people, people in general. India, why bring India?
Umapati: Well, it's the popular opinion over here that Indians are...
Prabhupada: No, no, why do you bring? This is another foolishness. Why do you bring India? What you have done first of all, sir?
Umapati: Well, I am not doing this.
Prabhupada: No no, you are your men. Those who are not Indian.
Paramahamsa: Well, perhaps it's because spiritual culture originates, spiritual culture is, permeates their society.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is. When spiritual consciousness is presented in truth, then you become conquered. You have been already. The Christian people are astonished, how Krsna consciousness movement so big shape within so few years. They are afraid now. Yes. And why they shall not be? Here is science. And that is foolishness only.
Umapati: That's their new religion.
Prabhupada: Yes. "God has only one son." Why? God one son? I asked the priest, that "God is limited or unlimited?" "Oh, unlimited." "Then why should you limit it by one son?" He could not answer. "Ordinary men have more than one son, and God has got only one son." Why? He could not answer. There is no philosophy. How people will...? This system, religion, was taught thousands of years, some shepherds, some fourth-class men. And now people are so much advanced in science, why they will accept it? Jesus Christ is preaching first thing, "Thou shalt not kill." That means he was preaching among the killers. So what kind of men they are? Tenth class of men. And how this tenth class man religion will be acceptable by the first class men? Now people are becoming first-class men. These things are go on, dogmas and nonsense philosophy. That will not stand. Automatically Christian religion is dead now. Nobody is going. There is no philosophy. There is no science. How it will be accepted. And they are violating, simply violating. Whatever it may be. Christ says "Thou shalt not kill." They are simply killing. How it will go on? How long you can cheat people? What is the explanation there? The first order is "Thou shalt not kill." Why they are killing? What is the answer?
Umapati: Sense gratification.
Prabhupada: That's all. Violating.
Paramahamsa: They have lost respect as well.
Prabhupada: Yes. Violating the laws. So how they can go on with the business?
Umapati: Somehow they think they have an answer.
Prabhupada: They have no answer. As soon as I asked this question... Yesterday also, last, that television, he also asked the same question. He has purchased all our books. So "Why this Christian religion is declined?" And "Why it will not? Why you are violating?" He could not answer. He could not answer. He will violate... All, many Christian priests ask me this question, and as soon as they put this question, they stop. They stop. They cannot answer. "Why you are killing? The first order is 'Thou shalt not kill,' and why you are killing?" They cannot answer. I asked them two questions. "Why unlimited God shall have only one son? And why you are killing?" They cannot answer. Or you answer?
Umapati: No.
Prabhupada: The earth was flat. They believed that the world is flat. So how much imperfect knowledge they have got. So imperfect knowledge, how long it can go? Just like we are going to challenge all these rascals that life is grown out of matter. We are going to challenge. It is not a fact. So how long you can cheat people? For hundred, two hundred, thousand years, but you cannot cheat for all the time.
Umapati: It has been going on from time immemorial. I guess they figure they can just keep going on for time immemorial.
Prabhupada: No time immemorial. You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all. Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two hundred years. That's all. So you are being cheated for the last two hundred years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another fifty years, everything will be finished.
Karandhara: Yes, they say now there is an anti-intellectual movement. People are rebelling to science and modern progress.
Prabhupada: What is that science? That is not science. That is ignorance. Ignorance. Simply ignorance. Ignorance is going as science. Irreligion is going as religion. So how long it will go? People are becoming intelligent.
Paramahamsa: In Newsweek Magazine-it's the largest magazine in the United States -- there was an article about the degradation of Christianity, and they summarized it with a cartoon, a picture of the devil, you know maya. This is their image of maya. And he was causing earthquakes. There was a very large earthquake in South America. It killed many thousands of people. So they attribute this to maya. And right next to them was a picture of Richard Nixon, because he is a very famous, you know... He presents himself as a follower of Christ. And he's bombing Southeast Asia.
Prabhupada: "Thou shalt not kill."
Paramahamsa: Yeah. And the devil turned to Richard Nixon and said, "It's hell keeping up with Christians."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes, people will criticize like that. People are becoming advanced. How long you can cheat them with so-called science, so-called religion? Now you take up this Krsna consciousness movement seriously. He will give real thing. Try to understand. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati (Mundaka Upanisad 1.3). If you simply understand Krsna, everything will be known to you. This is the process. If you simply understand Krsna, Krsna is explaining Himself in the Bhagavad-gita -- you know everything. You know everything. And that is the Vedic injunction, Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati: "By knowing Krsna only, you know everything." That science you try to understand and preach; people will be happy. Now, our question was that we say that the man... I say man. Other living entities, they are also living entities. So in Christian religion also, they say, "The man is made after God." Is it not?
Paramahamsa: "In the image of God."
Prabhupada: So man is the sample of God. So why don't you try, study nicely man, and you can know, understand God, what is God. I asked these Christian people, "If man is made after the image of God, you study very scrutinizingly a perfect human being, and you will know what is God."
Umapati: The most ideal image of a human being is God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). So you take a perfect man. Just like Krsna, you take a perfect man, take him as man, you see that He is God. He has got all the perfections. Even if you take him as a man.
Paramahamsa: No competition.
Prabhupada: No competition. That is Bhagavan. Bhagavan means... We are giving this definition. Bhagavan means a perfect man. That's all. Now, just like man wants to wife, to have wife. So why there is, what is called, adulteration? He wants more than one wife. Just see, perfect Krsna, He has got sixteen thousand wives, which you cannot imagine. Here is perfection. You cannot say that a man has no inclination to have more than one wife. That is there. So that propensity is, in perfection, is there in Krsna. Therefore He is God.
Umapati: They refer to it as the Don Juan complex.
Prabhupada: Juan complex, what is that?
Umapati: It's a character in Spanish history, fictional history. The perfect lover, the image that all men would like to be, the perfect lover.
Prabhupada: Yes. So who can be perfect lover than Krsna? Krsna, He loves everyone. Where is that man, he loves everyone? The so-called patriot, they love their countrymen, but kill their animals. Why? Mr. Nixon loves his countrymen. Why not love his country cows? They are also born in the land. They require also. They have right to live, so why they are killed? That is imperfection. And Krsna is embracing the calf, come on, and embracing Radharani also. That is perfection. That is perfection. Krsna talks with birds. These are there. One day on the bank of Yamuna He was talking with a bird. One old lady saw and said, "Oh, He's talking with a bird?" That is perfection.
Paramahamsa: He sounded like this? He talked like that, like the birds talk?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Therefore Krsna's another quality is bahubhasajnah, He can speak in any language.
Umapati: Birds have language? Animals have their language?
Prabhupada: Oh yeah everyone has language. Everyone.
Umapati: Father, how is it that we can enjoy this energy we are in, Krsna's energy now, and we acknowledge it as Krsna's in the neophyte stage. A pure devotee realizes it as Krsna's energy, but as a neophyte, how do we enjoy material energy in this aspect, the fresh air and the morning walk.
Prabhupada: A neophyte or anyone who is not in Krsna consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. There is no question of enjoyment. Anyone who is not in Krsna consciousness, he does not enjoy. He simply suffers. But he takes the suffering as enjoyment. That is maya. That is maya. Just like in your country, they are working day and night. Just like from the morning, gugugugugugugugugu (makes noise of machine that is on nearby) They are suffering, but the people are coming, enjoying golf. That is suffering only. From the morning, going here, is it not suffering? (laughter) But he's thinking, "I am enjoying." This is maya.
Umapati: Just like the doctor's...
Prabhupada: Yes. This is maya. He is suffering, but he's thinking I am enjoying. So any conditioned soul, he doesn't enjoy anything. He simply suffers. But he thinks that he is enjoying. Therefore the camel, camel example is given. Camel example. Camel, he is eating his own blood, eating thorns, and the thorns cutting the tongue, and from the tongue, blood is oozing out. So when the blood is mixed up with the thorny twigs, it becomes little tasteful, and he is thinking "Oh, it is very nice." Similarly, all these grhasthas, enjoying sex life, he is discharging his own blood, he's becoming weaker and weaker, he is thinking, "I am enjoying." He is thinking, "I am enjoying." And if he uses more, then he becomes diseased, tuberculosis. He is dying by that process, but he's thinking, "I am enjoying." Therefore it is example for the camel. He is enjoying his own blood by discharging. One drop of semen is made out of so many drops of blood. Do you know?
Svarupa Damodara: Forty drops.
Prabhupada: Just see. And how many, how much drops of semen he is discharging... That means he's spoiling his blood. But he is thinking, "I am enjoying." Would you like to, by giving your blood to enjoy? Would you like?
Umapati: No, I don't think I'd like.
Prabhupada: But you are doing that, every night. And that is called maya.
Umapati: I'm a brahmacari, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: No, you are...(laughter) I am giving an example. This is going on. He is going to die. He has adopted a process by which he will die, and he thinks that he is enjoying. This is called maya. Maya means things which is not, maya. Ma means not, ya means this. "What you are thinking, it is not that." That is called maya. So they are in maya means, they are thinking, these rascals, they are thinking, improving, becoming happy, advancing this maya word will finish everything, ma, ya: "Not this." Bhagavata says that "You are thinking you are becoming victorious, but you are being defeated." Parabhavas tavad abodha-jatah. These rascal, abodha-jatah, born fools and rascal, they are becoming defeated in every step. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So long he does not inquire about his self, "What I am," he is simply being defeated. That's all. This is the verdict.
Umapati: Walking further into the cave.
Prabhupada: He's working foolishly like animal. He does not know what is soul, what he is, nothing of the sort. He is working hard day and night and he is thinking, "I am becoming victorious." This is called maya. What victory? Have you won victory over birth, death, the real problem? "No. We have won victory. We can now, without horse, we can go with a car." So what is that? With a horse or without horse, you cannot go anywhere else. You will be here within this world. That's all. Just like these rascals, now they have invented car. You know that? Formerly they were walking.
Karandhara: Yes. Now he is pulling car.
Prabhupada: That's all. What is that? That within he's..., that golf area. (Apparently, a man is mowing grass on a machine in the background) That's all. (laughing) You know the cow? The cow is stuck up with a pole in India and long rope, and he's thinking, "I am free."
Krsna-kanti: They have made a longer rope.
Prabhupada: Yes. And he is thinking, "I am so free." Is not? This rascaldom is going on.
Paramahamsa: The one who wrote Paradise Lost, Milton, he also wrote a poem which said that, "A working man is nothing but a devil's slave."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it.
Paramahamsa: "He works so hard for his money, but not his life can he save."
Prabhupada: No, what he will do with the money? He will satisfy his senses, that's all.
Paramahamsa: So he sells his life.
Prabhupada: So he's servant of the senses.
Umapati: He sells his energy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Umapati: Krsna's energy that is in him, maya's energy.
Prabhupada: [break] ...transmigration of soul. Suppose this time I am very great scientist, and next life I become a tree like this. What is my advancement? Stand up for ten thousand years. What is the advancement?
Svarupa Damodara: Going backwards.
Prabhupada: Yes. Going to hell, that's all. You are trying to be naked; nature will say, "Yes, you stand here naked for ten thousand years." Yes. That is the punishment for being naked. Human life is not meant for becoming naked. That is according to Vedic civilization a great sin. You see. So their, their propensity they are increasing to become naked like our George... What's his name? Lennon, Lennon. So next time he is going to be tree, stand up. Otherwise wherefrom the trees come? They cannot explain. You become tree. That's all. Just like the Nalakuvara; they were taking bath naked without caring for Narada. All right, you become naked for one hundred years.
Svarupa Damodara: Among the trees also, there are different grades of trees, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, everywhere different grades. That is God's creation, variety.
Svarupa Damodara: So those trees which bear nice fruits and nice flowers, they are...
Prabhupada: Yes, they are pious, pious trees. Otherwise why I am taking care of this leaf? Because the flower is there. And who cares for this leaf? Trampling down. As in the human society, there is first-class man, second-class man, third-class man, similarly in every field, first-class, animal also.
Svarupa Damodara: Cows.
Prabhupada: Yes. Useful, giving milk. Most humble, useful. Even after death it is useful. And they are so rascal, they are taking care of the dog, not of the cow. Just see how they are rascals. And they are advanced, civilized. They do not know what is meant by civilization. Now, according to Vedic scripture, cow killing is sinful. It is never written, dog killing is sinful. Generally, any animal you kill, that is sinful. But especially cow killing is sinful. Go-hatya. Go-hatya. And that cow killing is going on by the Christian world, and still, they are religious. What kind of religion? Christian religion says generally, "Thou shalt not kill." All... And especially they are killing cows. Generally killing and especially killing. First thing is why they shall kill at all? In America, oh, they have got sufficient food. So much rice, so much wheat, so much oats, fruits, grains and butter and ghee. So why they shall kill? What is the reason?
Umapati: Uncontrollable tongue.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now what is that bird who is killed in Christmas?
Devotees: Turkey.
Prabhupada: Turkey, you see. Now, Christmas, God's Christmas, Jesus Christ. He said, "Thou shalt not kill." But his birthday is observed by killing, killing, killing, killing, killing.
Paramahamsa: And ham. Ham is also cow, isn't it?
Karandhara: Pig.
Paramahamsa: Pig. Pig and turkey they have.
Krsna-kanti: Actually, they kill the turkey on Thanksgiving, which is the day that they acknowledge and give thanks to the Lord.
Umapati: For this great country.
Prabhupada: For giving them opportunity to kill? And where is the opportunity? The Lord said, "Thou shalt not kill." Where do they get the opportunity of killing? That is another blaspheme. Where do they get this opportunity? They manufacture.
Sukadeva: In Seattle not only do they eat cows, but they run out of cows and they start eating horses. It is very famous now to buy horsemeat. They have horse steaks instead of cow steaks. It has become so degraded now that they are eating horses.
Prabhupada: Why?
Paramahamsa: They ran out of cows. Cows cost too much.
Sukadeva: So now they are killing horses.
Prabhupada: So now they will eat their old father. Yes. No price. Home made. (laughter) Home made concession.
Svarupa Damodara: I think it's quite wet, Srila Prabhupada, this side.
Paramahamsa: Maybe drier over that way.
Prabhupada: Yes. Anywhere you go.
Svarupa Damodara: This side is better, actually.
Paramahamsa: Not only did Christ tell them not to kill, but he also, he himself said that all his disciples were like sheep and animals and he was their herder. So he gave the example that we are all like, we should be like innocent animals. So many examples he gave like that.
Svarupa Damodara: I remember this in Pittsburgh last year Srila Prabhupada, in that meeting with the bishops, there was a Christian father, a Catholic father. So the question raised that Srila Prabhupada said, "Thou shalt not kill," in the Bible, in the Commandments.
Prabhupada: Yes. I was invited by some Christian priest in Melbourne, very good gathering. I said also the same thing.
Svarupa Damodara: I think his answer was "When the Bible was written, Christ didn't mean this way." That was his answer.
Prabhupada: Oh, He used that part. He has found out. The rascal. Beat with shoes, that what "Christian, Christ could not find out, you have found out. You are so great. Thank you very much. You are more intelligent than Christ. Oh. So why Bible. Why not write your Bible? Let us follow."
Paramahamsa: Generally there are now something like 451 different translations. Just like the Gita. They interpret in so many ways.
Prabhupada: No Gita, or... Many translations, but the original Gita is perfect.
Paramahamsa: Yeah. Well they are not even sure that the Bible is (tape is very distorted) As a matter of fact it's a known fact that so many of the excerpts from Christ's disciples were, how you say, censored. There were parts taken out.
Prabhupada: Some Bible authorities say that there is no soul of the animal. St. Joseph or something.
Devotee: St. Thomas.
Karandhara:. That was St. Augustine.
Prabhupada: Just see. How great fool he was. And he's a saint. You see.
Krsna-kanti: Well the real in his book (tape distortions)
Prabhupada: Jivo jivasya jivanam.
Svarupa Damodara: One life is the food of another.
Prabhupada: Another. That is not the question. That is also science. And this is also science that every living entity has got... (distortions) You eat. That I have already said, but why do you say something which is not fact?
Devotee: They say what is the difference between an animal and a plant?
Prabhupada: Maybe different (distortion) difference between you and me. That difference you'll find amongst ourselves. We are all different. But that does not mean I have no soul. Any one of us has soul. (distortions till end of tape)

 

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Progress Towards Darkness

December 7, 1973

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Prajapati: ...last hundred and fifty years, one of the major problems of western theologians has been the relationship between reason and faith. They've been seeking to understand faith through reason but they have not been able to come to any terms of the relationship between their reasoning abilities and faith. So there's been like a leap, almost a rejection of any kind of...Prabhupada: No. Just like we are walking on this street, so there is relation. This path is made for my walking. This is the relation with this road and myself. This is not made for... For animals also. But at least, we can take it is made for man. So for walking of man this road is made. So this is my relation. So in this way, everything you search out, you'll find out some relation. Is it not? Try to understand this first. Everything you take... Just like here is a microphone. There is my relation: I talk and it is recorded. So where is the difficulty to find out relationship with everything. Is there any difficulty?
Prajapati: They see one, Srila Prabhupada. The theologians perceive when they see that reason and faith are in two realms...
Prabhupada: This is reason, that everything we are using, there is a relationship. How can you deny it? If I have got relationship with everything, then I have got some relationship with God also. Try to understand this fact. Hmm? Have you got relationship with God or not? If we have got relationship with everything of God's creation, then why not with God? Answer, any one of you. Why you are silent?
Hrdayananda: Because you're right, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Hare Krsna. We must have some relationship with God.
Karandhara: Their point is that they can only have faith in God. Their reason tells them there is no God.
Prabhupada: There is no question of faith, it must be. Faith may be false. There must be. Because we have got relationship with everything, therefore ultimately everything is created by God.
Satsvarupa: That requires faith.
Prabhupada: It is not faith; it is fact. Faith may be wrong. Faith may be right or wrong, but fact is fact.
Karandhara: Well, when they say fact, they mean what they can perceive through their senses grossly.
Prabhupada: Yes, with senses, senses. That is... Our Krsna consciousness movement means that we have got relationship with God and senses, our senses. That is hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When the senses are engaged with the Supreme, in relationship, that is called bhakti. It is a question of senses. It is not vague. We apply everything, we go with our senses. Just like the leg, we go, take our legs to the temple. We use our tongue for glorifying, for eating the prasadam. Every senses. That is bhakti. It is not sensuous, but engaging the senses in the service of the proprietor of the senses.
Karandhara: But they say that's a faith.
Prabhupada: That's not faith, that's fact.
Karandhara: They say when we offer prasadam, it's just a faith that a God accepts it because you cannot see God eating.
Prabhupada: No, no, you cannot see, I see. I am not a fool like you. (laughter) I can see; therefore I offer. But you cannot see. So I have to open your eyes. You come to me. That is our propaganda. You are blind. You are suffering with cataract. I shall operate and you'll see also.
Yasomatinandana: Hare Krsna.
Hrdayananda: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: You don't see, that does not mean I don't see. Why do you accept like that? You may be fool rascal.
Karandhara: They want their team of scientists to see it.
Prabhupada: Scientist means another rascal. Big rascal. You are a rascal, and your bigger scientist, he's a big rascal. He's a big rascal. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. You know this verse? Explain.
Hrdayananda: People who are like hogs, dogs, camels and asses glorify nondevotees.
Prabhupada: Yes, the, anyone nondevotee, he's a big camel, or big dog or big swine, like that. So these people who are praising them, they are also cats and dogs and swines, and the leader is also big swine. That's all. That is the difference. The so-called scientist, philosopher, is a big animal. That's all. But he is animal.
Karandhara: They say we're just dreamers.
Prabhupada: Dreamer?
Karandhara: Dreamers. That we make up fantasies about God and heaven, but actually,
Prabhupada: Why fancies? You have no brain to understand; therefore you say, "fancy"
Karandhara: Well, their common ground of objectivity is what they can perceive with the senses.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can sense with the senses. You perceive with the senses the sand, but who has made the sand? You have not made. Why you are so fool that you don't understand this? This sand... Here is a perception, direct perception. This water, vast water-direct perception. Who has made it?
Karandhara: Well, they say, "If it was made by God, we'd be able to see him just like the sand."
Prabhupada: Yes, but you have to get the eyes. That I say. Because you are blind, you have cataract, I have to operate. You'll see. You'll see. You come to treatment. Therefore the sastra says, "Go to guru and be treated and try to understand." But how you can see with your blind eyes, cataract eyes?
Karandhara: Well, that vision, that seeing, is supramundane. They only consider the mundane vision.
Prabhupada: Yes, supramundane, everything is supramundane. Because... How do you know that there is nothing in the sky? Now you say it is vacant. So your eyes is deficient. It is not vacant. There are innumerable planets, but you cannot see. You cannot see. You are blind. Therefore, because it is not in your power to see, you have to hear from me. "Yes, there are millions of stars there." You have to accept it. You cannot see. But because you cannot see does not mean that it is vacant. It is deficiency of your senses.
Karandhara: Well, they will admit that, but they say, "Still, we cannot... Even though we are ignorant of some things, we still can't accept what we can't see."
Prabhupada: Why? If you are ignorant, you have to accept.
Karandhara: Because what we're told may be wrong.
Prabhupada: May be wrong, that is your misfortune. But the process is that where your senses cannot approach, you have to hear from authority. That is the process. But if you don't approach authority, if you approach a cheater, that is your misfortune. But the process is, where your senses cannot act, you have to approach authority. That is the process.
Svarupa Damodara: But they want experimental knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is experimental.
Svarupa Damodara: They say, "It cannot be proved."
Prabhupada: No, why not proved? Just like I gave you the... this water, this sand, it is practical. Now you must know somebody has made it.
Karandhara: Well, the difficulty is, in a group of atheists, you can't prove God no matter what you say.
Prabhupada: No, atheists, kick them on their face. Atheists, they are... Those who are reasonable, that everything see, that somebody has made. So this sand is also made by somebody, the water is also made by somebody, the sky is also made by somebody. Now you find out who is that somebody. That is knowledge.
Dr. Wolfe: They do not want to transcend the limits. They do not want to transcend the limits.
Prabhupada: There is no question of transcending, practical. Everything you see, it is made by somebody. The stick is made by somebody. The cloth is made by somebody. So this must be made by somebody.
Dr. Wolfe: But they would say, "Present me the somebody so that I..." They would say, "Present to me the somebody so that I can see him."
Prabhupada: Yes, I'll present you. So you have to take training from me. You have to make your eyes to see Him.
Dr. Wolfe: We want to.
Prabhupada: That is the... Yes. But if you refuse to be treated, if you don't go to the physician, then how you'll be? You are blind now. There is cataract. Now you have to treat in a surgical operation. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is the injunction.
Karandhara: You see, that step requires faith.
Prabhupada: Not faith, practical.
Karandhara: Initially it must be, there must be faith in the guru.
Prabhupada: Practical. If you want to learn something, you must to go the expert. That is not faith; it is a fact. You cannot learn anything by yourself. That is not possible.
Bali Mardana: If someone is actually sincere, can he be cheated or will he always get a bona fide guru?
Prabhupada: No, if he is sincere he'll get. Yes. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Guru and Krsna. Krsna is within you. As soon as He sees that you are sincere, He'll give you the right person.
Bali Mardana: So if you are not completely sincere, you might get a Guru Maharaji.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bali Mardana: If you're not completely sincere, you might get someone else.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because you want to be cheated, you go to the cheater. That's all. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Krsna is intelligent, superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He'll cheat you. He'll cheat you. First-class cheat, Krsna. But if you're actually sincere, then He'll give you the right thing. That is stated in the Bhag..., mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca: [Bg. 15.15] "Everything is coming from Me: smrtih, remembrance, and forgetfulness." If you are a cheater, Krsna will give you such intelligence, you'll forget Krsna forever.
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, so it is so, "Birds of a feather flock together." The cheaters flock together.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Birds of the same feather flock together."
Karandhara: The thing is that our philosophy is as supportable as theirs, but because they are in control they have the dominance.
Prabhupada: Who has dominance?
Karandhara: The atheists.
Prabhupada: Atheists? (laughs) One kick of maya, he's finished. (laughter) All dominance. One this kick his dominance all finished, in one second. (laughter) No dominance. That is maya. They are under control, but thinking that "We are free." That is called maya, that is called maya. They are under full control but they are thinking, "We are free." That is maya. Mohini, mohinim sritah. What is that verse? Asurim mohinim?
Hrdayananda: Raksasim. Moghasa mogha,
Prabhupada: Prakrtim mohinim. Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasah [Bg. 9.12]. Because they are bewildered, all their hopes will be frustrated. Moghasah. Because they are rascals, asurim, atheists, all their hopes will be frustrated. This is stated. And that is being done. They are making so big, big plan; now it is going to be frustrated. Just see.
Svarupa Damodara: Still, they don't want to come to their senses.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals. Rascal means that however kick him on his face, still, he'll insist. That is rascal. Rascal means that. They'll never take good lesson. That is rascal. And sensible means he takes good lesson. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. And why they remain rascal? Because they are duskrtinah, very, very sinful. Very, very sinful. Don't you see? They are maintaining slaughterhouse. They are maintaining brothel. They are ruining everyone's life by sense gratification. These are all sinful activities. Therefore they remain rascal forever. They cannot improve. Because they are so sinful, they have to suffer, go to the darkest region. They'll have to become worms of the stool. That is awaiting them. But they do not know how things are going on. They are thinking, "We are now safe. We are safe." That is foolishness. That is rascaldom. So you are now feeling all right?
Paramahamsa: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. Rascal means that... You know the story, that Kalidasa, a great poet, he was a great rascal. So... It is a long story. So he was sitting on the branch of a tree and cutting. So some gentleman: "Why you are cutting? You'll fall down." "No, no, I'll not fall down." But when he fell down, then he went to that gentleman, "How did you know, sir, that I shall fall down?" Then they concluded, "Here is a rascal number one." (laughter) "Here is a rascal number one." They do not know that they are going to hell. That is rascaldom. By their so-called scientific advancement, philosophy, education, they are going to hell. That they do not know. Therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. This is the definition of rascaldom: one who does not know where he is going. If somebody goes in this way straight, and you say "Don't go!" "No! Why shall I not go?" He's rascal. (laughter) He's rascal. And the another rascal, "Yes, yes, you can go, it is all right." Yata mata tata patha. "As many ways you manufacture, it is all right. You can go this way." He's another rascal. This is going on.
Svarupa Damodara: How do we bring them to their senses?
Prabhupada: This is Krsna consciousness. Be Krsna conscious and everything will be solved. How we are speaking? Because we have taken shelter of Krsna. That's all. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti, as soon as you surrender to Krsna, all this maya, misconception, will go. You'll become right person, in knowledge. That is Krsna consciousness, to become perfect man. Because there is guidance, the perfect guidance, so he becomes perfect. Harer nama harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] This is the statement in Bhagavata. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram: [SB 7.5.30] "Because they cannot control their senses, therefore they are making progress towards the darkest region of hell." Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita: "And repeatedly chewing the chewed." They make one plan. It is frustrated. Again make another plan. That is frustrated. Again make another plan. But they will never agree to accept that these plans are all useless. That is rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Repeatedly chewing the chewed, chewing the chewed. The same woman, same vagina, and that is their pleasure. Bas. At home, and in street or nightclub and theater -- the same vagina. That's all.
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they would say that that is braveness. they are brave in trying again and again.
Prabhupada: Yes, they must say. That is their rascaldom. One who goes, braveness, go to the Pacific Ocean and die, and go to hell. That is their braveness. That is their braveness. They are bravely going to hell. That's all. There is a story, palavarne boi nate(?). One man is chasing another man. So the man who is chased, he's asked, "Why you are fleeing away, fleeing away?" So, "Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not flee? Why shall not go? Am I afraid of you." He's fleeing out of fear, but still, he says, "Am I afraid of you? Am I afraid of you? Why shall I not? Why shall I stop?" This is the position. "Bravely I am going to hell. Why shall I stop? I am brave." This is going on.
Hrdayananda: It's crazy.
Prabhupada: Yes, crazy. This is stated:
pisaci paile yena mati-cchanna haya
maya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya
"Just like when a man becomes crazy, ghostly haunted, he speaks all nonsense, similarly, anyone who is under the influence of this material energy, he's crazy." He's crazy, talks all nonsense. That's all. [break]
mayar bose jaccho bhese'
Khaccho habudubu bhai
This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's... "Why you are being carried away by the waves of maya and you are becoming drowned and sometimes up, sometimes down? Why you are wasting your life in that way?"
jiva krsna das e biswas
korle to' ar duhkho nai
"If you simply accept Krsna as your guidance, there is no more maya." But they'll not accept. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore one who accepts and surrenders unto Krsna after many, many births of such struggle for existence, he is actually wise. He's actually wise.
Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, why has it taken so long for a pure devotee to come to the West? Has the West been so sinful that no pure devotee has come before Your Divine Grace?
Prabhupada: (laughs) Don't be sorry. At that time you were so sinful that you could not receive a pure devotee.
Karandhara: Yes. Once in a lecture a lady asked you why hadn't you come sooner, and you just said, "Well, you weren't ready for me."
Prabhupada: Yes, "Because you were not ready." (laughs) Yes, I told, yes. Now the Western boys, the descendants of the Western people, they are fortunate; therefore they receive Krsna. Kona bhagyavan jiva. It is Krsna's desire that "These people are suffering so much; let some devotees come here." So you are all devotees. You have come to join together.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, during the progress of evolutionary process, suppose if the individual soul falls down from the human platform, the individual soul falls down from the human platform to some other lower species, but in the course of again evolutionary process, at some stage along the path he'll come to Krsna consciousness. Is this...?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, that is the process. Evolution means to come to that end, Krsna consciousness. That is real evolution. If one misses the chance, then again falls down. But the natural progress is that.
Svarupa Damodara: But ultimately he will come to Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes, ultimately everyone will come to Krsna. Not Krsna consciousness, but Krsna. At the end of this world, devastation, they enter into the body of Krsna. They remain there.
Hrdayananda: That wouldn't be very good for a devotee.
Prabhupada: Huh? But they have no sense. These birds are feedies(?) or their bodily extension is so much. I think they're feedies(?).
Hrdayananda: They're what.
Svarupa Damodara: What? Very nice.
Prabhupada: Just see how they are experienced. They're not afraid of the ocean, although they are very small. They know how to save him. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Krsna is there within the heart. They are giving, "Now get off." They immediately get off.
Hrdayananda: Boy. That's Visnu within their heart?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nice, very broad and clean. [break] ...can overflood the whole area, but no. "Up to this, no more, sir." Under whose order they are working? There must be some control.
Prajapati: They would say it's under the control of the moon. The moon controls the tides.
Prabhupada: Yes, the moon is controlled by whom?
Svarupa Damodara: They'll say, "By nature."
Prabhupada: Nature is controlled by whom?
Bali Mardana: Who is controlling the moon?
Prabhupada: That is answered in the Bhagavad-gita, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: [Bg. 9.10] "Nature is controlled by Me." Therefore He is absolute controller. But He is not controlled by anyone. Therefore He is absolute controller. Just like a, what is called? Magnetic stone?
Hrdayananda: Magnet?
Prabhupada: Magnet, it attracts.
Svarupa Damodara: Iron filings.
Prabhupada: Iron filings. But who has given this power to this magnetic stone? You cannot give.
Karandhara: They say, "It's just there by nature's arrangement."
Prabhupada: That is answered: "Nature is controlled by God."
Karandhara: Well, they prefer to leave nature as nondescript. When they say or designate as "nature," they prefer to leave that nondescript, nonspecific.
Prabhupada: Why? That means insufficient knowledge. They do not wish to describe it because your foolishness will be discovered.
Svarupa Damodara: They will say that "I can do that. That is done by nature."
Prabhupada: Huh?
Svarupa Damodara: In the case of a magnet, suppose if I take a piece of iron and if I magnetize it by electrical current, it will act as a magnet. So they say...,
Prabhupada: Yes, but the iron is not manufactured by you. Neither the magnetic stone is manufactured by you. You take nature's product and utilize it. That is not your original creation. So what is credit to you? You can transform. That is in your hand. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. There are two things: material and spiritual, inferior energy and superior energy. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho. The living entities, they are superior energy. Why superior? They can take the materials and handle. Yayedam dharyate jagat. That is your superior energy. You can take the matters and combine it and make something else. That is the world, going on, matter and spirit. You have created your own body by your desire. So that you can do, but the materials, the body, you cannot create. That is not in your power.
Svarupa Damodara: They are trying to make it.
Prabhupada: Again "trying." It is already there. What is the use of your trying? The same thing. Already dog is barking, but one is trying to imitate. That's all. But people will go to see the imitation barking by purchasing ticket, and the real barking they'll neglect.
Svarupa Damodara: That is called, "new discovery."
Prabhupada: What is that new discovery? Barking is already there. What is new discovery? You are simply imitating barking, that's all. Barking is already there. What is discovery?
Svarupa Damodara: But that imitation is just new.
Prabhupada: No. Imitation is flattery. That's all. Imitation is the best way of flattery. That's all.
Karandhara: Actually they are proving our point because as persons they can imitate the Supreme person, but He made the original. If they were not persons or living entities, they couldn't imitate God's creation.
Prabhupada: Now, in your laboratory, by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, if you produce one ounce of water, what is your credit? Here is vast water already.
Svarupa Damodara: They say it was not done before in the lab.
Prabhupada: It is done already; otherwise where the water came? You do not know who did it. That is your ignorance.
Hrdayananda: So it just enviousness. They're just envious.
Prabhupada: Foolishness. Enviousness means one must be able. But they are not able. Simply foolishness.
Bali Mardana: They have created artificial gems, like...
Prabhupada: Just like you are a powerful man. I am a powerful man. I become envious. That is allowed. But I'm not powerful, I'm trying to imitate you, it is foolishness.
Svarupa Damodara: But they're saying that God didn't give me all the knowledge to do, how to make this water.
Prabhupada: Because He wanted you to remain a fool. He wanted. Because you are atheist, He wanted that you shall remain ever fool. That is God's business. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram asubhan yonisu [Bg. 16.19]. These atheistic class, they remain always fools. Krsna gives him birth in such a family, in such a country, in such a posi..., that he remains fools. He remains always fool. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.
Yasomatinandana: Prabhupada, it's like the barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. It's like barber giving opinion on the science of medicine. Because the materialistic person, they claim to be expert of material science, and still, they want to give opinion on the spiritual science.
Prabhupada: No, no, they are not even expert of material science. They are expert in bluffing others things with jugglery of words. That's it.
Svarupa Damodara: No, they're saying that it was not done before, like telephones and these airplanes and these new discoveries.
Prabhupada: Well, there were better telephones. You do not know it. Just like Sanjaya is sitting with his master, Dhrtarastra, and he's relaying all the war affairs going on. He asked, kim akurvata sanjaya: [Bg. 1.1] "What did they do?" But he was sitting in the room. Where is your that telephone? It is television within the heart. He is seeing everything and relay. Bhagavad-gita, don't you see? Sanjaya uvaca, dhrtarastra uvaca. Dhrtarastra inquired, "Now, after meeting my sons and nephews, what they are doing?" And he's relaying, "Now Duryodhana is going to see Dronacarya. Dronacarya says like this. Bhismadeva says..." How does he say within the room? But you know that science?
Svarupa Damodara: But they will say that that was only possible...,
Prabhupada: He will say... They may say, but we are putting some fact. They may say all nonsense. We are not going to accept that.
Karandhara: Some of them say, "Well we've improved on nature. By making things like plastics and medicines, we've improved nature."
Prabhupada: All right. Very improvement. People were eating in silver plates, golden plates, and you have improved by plastic plates. (laughter) This rascaldom can be understood by another rascal. We are not going to do.
Hrdayananda: The plastic is a great problem because they can't get rid of it. Plastic has become a great problem because there is no way to dispose of it. So it just piles up and piles up, and they can't get rid of it.
Svarupa Damodara: In the future they are going to make plastic houses.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Transparent, you can see everything from the house.
Prabhupada: So what is the credit there?
Svarupa Damodara: They say that is an improvement.
Bali Mardana: But the plastic depends on oil.
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They are going to hell and still they are thinking, "improvement." This is their foolishness. Foolish means that, that he's going to hell, but he's thinking, "improving." This is their...
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, wouldn't it be more sincere if these people, these scientists said, "We don't want to be taken out of this dream, that with our senses and with all the machines built on senses we will be able to make it"? But they don't want to be taken out of that dream.
Prabhupada: But that is their foolishness.
Dr. Wolfe: They don't want to admit it even.
Prabhupada: Why not? They have to admit Just like I gave you the example that you cannot see how many stars are there, but there are. If you say, "I don't see it, I don't believe it," that is your foolishness. That is your foolishness. You have to admit that your senses are limited. They are not perfect. That is the four defects of the conditioned soul: he commits mistake, he is illusioned, he cheats, and his senses are imperfect.
Dr. Wolfe: But they say they try and try again.
Prabhupada: No, try, how? How can you? You are diseased person. Suppose you are suffering from cataract disease. So you can try, try, try, try. Will you be cured? You'll never be cured. You must go to a physician. He'll operate, surgical operation. Then there is chance of seeing. You cannot, trying, trying, trying, trying. Then you go on trying, but you'll never be cured.
Dr. Wolfe: But that is just what they do not want to accept.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. They do not take good advice. That is foolishness. Foolishness means murkhayopadeso hi prakipaya na santaye (?). Murkha, a rascal, if you give him good advice, he'll be angry. Just like a serpent, if you bring the serpent and if you tell the serpent, "My dear friend serpent, you live with me. I shall give you daily nice food, milk and banana. You'll be very pleased." So the result will be that his poison will increase. One day he'll say, "Phah! Phah!" (laughter) So these rascals are like that.
Svarupa Damodara: But they won't give up hopes. They are always hopeful.
Prabhupada: That is foolishness. Their hopes are being frustrated every moment; still, they are hoping. That is foolishness.
Prajapati: Srila Prabhupada, I once was distributing some of your literature to a library, and the librarian said, "If these are five thousand years old, where is the proof of this? Do we have the copies that were written down five thousand years ago?"
Prabhupada: This is the proof. This is the proof. You see. But if you close your eyes... Just like if somebody says, "Now there is sunrise, light." And if he is in darkness, he says, "Where is the proof there is light?" So, "You please come out and see." So you read it and there will be proof.
Karandhara: Even if you don't accept it's five thousand years old, that doesn't diminish the value of the books.
Prabhupada: Simply read it. There is no question of five thousand, ten thousand, old or new. Just see what is the knowledge there. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam [SB 1.7.6]. Because they are fools, for them this literature is made. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. [break] ...accept Bhagavata, then their Darwin's theory is finished. Darwin's theory is finished.
Svarupa Damodara: No, if they accept that there is a spirit soul, then Darwin's theory is also finished.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Spirit soul, they don't like to accept it.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break]
Prajapati: The theologians are saying that if we say man is simply soul, he is not his body, we are not accepting the whole man. The whole man means soul and body together.
Prabhupada: Yes, we say, body, same...
Karandhara: Body, mind and soul.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Gross matter, subtle matter, and the spirit.
Prajapati: That is whole man.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is whole creation. Why man? Everything. [break] Nature is not under his control; he is under nature's control.
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, they are foolish enough to try it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: But they are going to make houses on the moon now. On the surface of the moon they'll make houses in a few years.
Prabhupada: What is the benefit?
Karandhara: There's plenty of space on the earth. Why do they have to go to the moon?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Because it was not done before, so they want to show it to the people. They want to show the power of science.
Prabhupada: Power of science means imitating the barking of the dog. That's all. Dog is already barking, but they imitate and they become scientists. That's all. This is their power. How to imitate. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: But they will say, "We are more advanced." So they can imitate.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. But we are not so fools that we shall waste our time for imitation. We have got already real thing. Why shall I go to the imitation.
Karandhara: Their imitations are cheap. Like a sputnik, how does it compare with a planet?
Prabhupada: Not cheap! Their imitation... They are going to the... They're spending millions and millions. It is very dear, costly. First thing is imitation, and that imitation is very, very costly. Very expensive. So that is their foolishness. They'll be satisfied with the imitation which is very costly.
Svarupa Damodara: They work so hard. Srila Prabhupada, there is a nice incident. There is a scientist from France, Pasteur. When he was about to be married, the same day, he forgot his own marriage day because he was working in his laboratory, doing experiments. So one of his friends reminded him, "Oh, Pasteur, your marriage day is today so you come out from the lab and you have to go there." Then he went out and got married,
Prabhupada: There is a Bengali proverb, yanra loke bie naya, para lokera ghumnaya: (?) "The man who is to be married, he has forgotten, and the neighbors, they are not sleeping, 'Oh, that man will be married. That man will be married.' " But he has forgotten.
Svarupa Damodara: So people are saying that "See how sincerely he's working. Take his example."
Prabhupada: Yes. So who is not sincerely working? He's working for some money. That's all. So everyone is working for money. What is the difference? If he's not paid for that, he'll not work. Just like a dog is working for the master, for the bread. That's all. So he's working not for himself, not for others, but for his money. Or some ambition. Prestige. That's right. [break] ...where? On the beach you are seeing?
Svarupa Damodara: About ten miles from here.
Prabhupada: In Bombay also, therefore it is two miles, three miles from Juhu. [break]
Prajapati: ...Srila Prabhupada, that's a best seller called, "I'm OK, You're OK," and the purport of this book is that if we simply pat each other on the back and tell each other how nice each other are, everything will be all right.
Prabhupada: Yes, mutual praising society, mutual praising society.
Karandhara: Mutual admiration society.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, in the twenties there was a doctor in Switzerland, Couet(?), who had the same method. "I'm better and better every day," and he had thousands of people who came there and nothing was heard of him ten years later.
Bali Mardana: Till he died.
Prabhupada: "Better, better, better, I am going to die better very soon." (laughter) Therefore Krsna has shown that "Why you are thinking, 'better,' the death is before you." Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanu... [Bg. 13.9], that is real knowledge. Real knowledge means, "How I am better?" The death is there. [break] That is real knowledge. I am going to die, I cannot stop it. You see. That is real knowledge. And if somebody thinks that I am better, although I am going to die, then he's a foolish. Better means you stop your death. [break] (end)

 

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We have Free Will

December 5, 1973

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Prabhupada: According to Vedic principle, the sudras, they should not be given more money, the worker class. Now the worker class is given more money. So what they'll do? They'll produce drunkards. That's all. In America, it is evident. They do not know how to use money. So therefore we see, fifty-two percent drunkards in your country. Eh? What is the percentage?Devotee: I'm not sure, Srila Prabhupada.
Karandhara: It's probably close to that.
Prabhupada: Eh? At least fifty-percent. Eh?
Karandhara: Drunkards, debauchers.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Karandhara: Criminals.
Prabhupada: Harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. What is the time?
Hrdayananda: Quarter to seven.
Prabhupada: Oh. So we can...?
Karandhara: We can walk around a little bit.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Umapati: So how... Is it a waste of time then to present Krsna consciousness philosophy to someone who believes in doing your own thing? Do you think that that is a...?
Prabhupada: No. It is, it is... We should push Krsna consciousness as disinfecting agent. They're all infected, the whole world. So by chanting you disinfect.
Umapati: Just by our presence chanting then?
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore chanting is so important. Philosophy later on. First of all, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], cleansing the heart.
Devotees: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Cleansing the heart. So by hearing this chanting their heart will be cleansed gradually. Then they will understand the real position.
Umapati: Oh. Jaya.
Hrdayananda: Oh, Krsna.
Prabhupada: So we have to do this chanting, not sit down in a solitary place, chanting himself. No, not like that. You are to vibrate the sound for the benefit of others.
Umapati: That is the mystical process of this movement.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. So that their heart may be cleansed and they can understand. And if I sit down in a solitary place, for my benefit, that may be his benefit, but it is not very high class engagement. He must sacrifice for others. Pararthe prag utsri, utsri(?). That is the Canakya Pandita's moral instruction, that "Everyone should sacrifice for the Supreme." Caitanya Mahaprabhu is God Himself. He comes down to preach, to become sannyasi, and to take so much trouble all over India and everywhere, and giving instruction and sending men, "Go, go, go, go." What? Why you...? He's perfect. Why He's coming? He doesn't require. No. For the benefit of others, we must follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (aside:) That's all right. Why water is here?
Karandhara: I don't know, Prabhupada. It's a low spot.
Prabhupada: A Vaisnava's first qualification that he's unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Vaisnava cannot be unhappy. That Prahlada Maharaja says, that "I have no problem. I am unhappy seeing these people who are simply engaged in false activities and they do not care for Krsna consciousness. Therefore I am unhappy." This is Vaisnava's qualification. Not that "I am saved. That's all right." That is materialism. "Let others go to hell. I am saved." That is materialism. A Vaisnava should think always, "Oh, so many people are suffering. What I am doing for them?" That is Vaisnava. Para-duhkha-duhkhi.
Svarupa Damodara: That is also said by scientists. They also say that "People are suffering. So we are trying to make them happy."
Prabhupada: That's all right, but if you do not know, how you'll make them happy? You'll create havoc.
Yasomatinandana: Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9].
Prabhupada: Yes, you do not know how to make them happy. First of all learn how to make them happy. You cannot manufacture your program to make them happy. That everyone is doing. But the more they are acting, the world becoming in chaotic condition. You know what is the standard of happiness, how to make them happy; then you can work. If a medical man, he has never seen a medical college and if he wants to treat patient, what is this?
Hrdayananda: A criminal.
Prabhupada: Yes. Quack. He must know how to make them happy. That is first business.
Yasomatinandana: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Karandhara: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Jaya.
Hrdayananda: Jaya. All glories to Prabhupada. (Prabhupada gets in the car)
Prabhupada: [break] ...basic disease. He has made himself voluntarily under the clutches of maya. And maya's business is to give trouble. That's all. Otherwise, he's free, but he has voluntarily accepted the custody of maya. Yaya sammohito jivah. Sammohitah means bewildered. Jiva, the living entities. Atmanam tri-gunatmakam. Everyone is identifying, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this body," "I am that body." This is identification with maya. Atmanam tri-gunatmakam. Tat-krtam cabhipadyate. And as soon as he becomes under the clutches of maya, he'll act according to the dictation of maya. Tat-krtam cabhipadyate. [break] ...to see their Los Angeles Zoo? Why they're advertising?
Sudama: The Los Angeles what, Prabhupada?
Hrdayananda: Zoo.
Prabhupada: Zoo.
Sudama: Oh yeah?
Karandhara: It's not a very good zoo.
Sudama: No, it's not.
Karandhara: Just a small little one.
Hrdayananda: The big zoo is in San Diego.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, zoo in the Africa.
Sudama: Oh yeah?
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) No, actually they go. There is a national zoo. Thousands of... Practically Africa's main income is from the tourists.
Srutakirti: Tourism.
Prabhupada: Yes. People go to see. You'll, you'll drive your car. You'll find lions, elephants, or...
Srutakirti: Recently one of Brahmananda's men had an accident by hitting some animal on the road. Large animal, I think it was.
Prabhupada: Oh, what accident?
Srutakirti: One of the vans. One of the devotees ran into an animal on the road.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Srutakirti: I'm not sure what it was.
Prabhupada: No, the national garden means there is arrangement. The animals are free, roaming. But you can go with your car and...
Hrdayananda: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: And they cannot attack within the car.
Sudama: No.
Prabhupada: But if you come out, they'll attack. The lions are there, elephants are there. [break]
Sudama: Not very cold?
Prabhupada: Not very cold.
Sudama: No, no. Compared to Hawaii, it is very cold.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Sudama: Compared to Hawaii, it is very cold.
Prabhupada: Oh. Hawaii is very pleasant.
Sudama: Yes, now it is eighty-five degrees every day.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Sudama: It's wintertime now.
Prabhupada: And summer?
Sudama: Summer's very hot. Hundred and five.
Prabhupada: But there is rainfall.
Sudama: Yes.
Prabhupada: Summer.
Sudama: Yes. There's quite a bit now. Sometimes in the winter it rains. So that one devotee brought up the point of the philosophy of "Do your own thing," and that's what the devotees were instructed in Hawaii to do. When they closed the temple, Gaurasundara just said, "Now everyone go and do your own thing for Prabhupada."
Prabhupada: If he does Prabhupada's work, then where is the own thing?
Sudama: Yeah, right. There's...
Prabhupada: "Do your own thing on behalf of Prabhupada." So if he wants Prabhupada, he must abide by the order of Prabhupada.
Sudama: Yeah. My thing is your thing. Actually, I have nothing of my own.
Prabhupada: No, they have been misguided. But temple closing was very irresponsible... [break] ...house many years.
Sudama: Many years. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- December 5, 1973, Los Angeles

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