Leer And Fear ... Or Hear
Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.1.2-5
Montreal, October 23, 1968
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Take a testMontreal, October 23, 1968
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Prabhupada: They have come here to
become technologist. They have lost all interest of this, in original Vedic
culture. (pause)
om ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana-salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah
sri-caitanya-mano-'bhistam
sthapitam yena bhu-tale
svayam rupah kada mahyam
dadati sva-padantikam
vande 'ham sri-guroh sri-yuta-pada-kamalam sri-gurun vaisnavams ca
sri-rupam sagrajatam saha-gana-raghunathanvitam tam sa-jivam
sadvaitam savadhutam parijana-sahitam krsna-caitanya-devam
sri-radha-krsna-padan saha-gana-lalita-sri-
he krsna karuna-sindho
dina-bandho jagat-pate
gopesa gopika-kanta
radha-kanta namo 'stu te
tapta-kancana-gaurangi
radhe vrndavanesvari
vrsabhanu-sute devi
pranamami hari-priye
hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
srotavyadini rajendra
nrnam santi sahasrasah
apasyatam atma-tattvam
grhesu grha-medhinam
[SB 2.1.2]
The same subject matter, that those who are too much attached in the family affairs, grhesu grha-medhinam. Grhamedhi means one who has made his center of activity home. He is called grhamedhi. There are two words. One word is grhastha, and one word is grhamedhi. What is the significance of these two words? Grhastha means one... Not only grhastha. It is called grhastha-asrama. Whenever we speak of asrama, it has got spiritual relationship. So all these four divisions of social orders -- brahmacari-asrama, grhastha-asrama, vanaprastha-asrama, sannyasa-asrama... Asrama. Asrama means... Whenever... Asrama, this word, has become little popular in your country also. Asrama means situation for spiritual cultivation. Generally, we mean that. And here also, there are so many yoga-asrama. I have seen in New York so many asramas. "New York Yoga Asrama," "Yoga Society," like that. Asrama means it has got a spiritual connection. It doesn't matter whether a man... Grhastha means living with family, wife and children.
So to remain with family and children is no disqualification for spiritual advancement of life. That is not a disqualification because after all, one has to take his birth from the father and mother. So all great acaryas, great spiritual leaders, after all, they have come from father and mother. So without combination of father and mother, even there is no possibility of begetting a great soul. There are many instances of great souls like Sankaracarya, Lord Jesus Christ, Ramanujacarya. Even they had no very high hereditary title, still, they came out from the grhasthas, father and mother. So grhastha, or the householder life, is not disqualification. We should not think it, that only the brahmacaris or the sannyasis, they can elevate to the spiritual platform, whereas those who are living with wife and children, they cannot. No. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has clearly stated in Caitanya-caritamrta that
kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya
yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei ‘guru' haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]
Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "It doesn't matter whether a person is grhastha or a sannyasi or a brahmana or not brahmana. It doesn't matter. Simply if one is Krsna conscious, if he is elevated in Krsna consciousness, then he is just, I mean to say, eligible to become the spiritual master." Yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128]. Tattva-vetta means one who knows about the science of Krsna. That means fully Krsna conscious. Sei guru haya. Sei means "he." Guru means "spiritual master." He doesn't say that "One has to become a sannyasi or a brahmacari. Then he can..." No. But here the word is used, grhamedhi, not grhastha. Grhastha is not condemned. If one lives in regulative principle with wife and children, so that is not disqualification. But grhamedhi, grhamedhi means he has no higher ideas or higher understanding of spiritual life. Simply living with wife and children like cats and dogs, he is called grhamedhi. That is the difference between these two words, grhamedhi and grhastha.
So Sukadeva Gosvami said that grhesu grha-medhinam. "One who does not know anything about this family life or sex life" -- family life, they have taken it as sex life, that's all -- "so they have many things to hear." Srotavyadini rajendra nrnam santi sahasrasah [SB 2.1.2]. Actually, you see. People are reading so many newspapers. In big country, big cities, there are big, big volumes of newspaper, magazines. They are very much eager to learn or to hear about the current news. So hearing means srotavyadi. There are volumes of volumes literature, magazines, newspaper. They are hearing. But when you say, "Please come here. We are reciting Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Please hear," they will not come. They will not come. This minus. When you speak of God, then they are not ready to hear. But if you speak of dog, that "Here is a dog's medicine. You can maintain a dog like this, and a dog can become fatty like this," oh, it is very scientific matter. You see? So they are called grhamedhis. So they have got many subject matter to hear, but they are not agreeable to hear only one thing -- about God.
Why? Now, apasyatam atma-tattvam: [SB 2.1.2] "They do not know what is self-realization." Apasyatam, cannot see. Their vision is very poor. Why? They are thinking this body as self; therefore they are very poorly thoughtful. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in another place, it is stated, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. Every day we are experiencing that "I am not this body. The body is growing. I am still there." There are so many instances. But we cannot understand that we are not this body. Apasyatam atma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Atma means, the atma... There are various meanings of atma. Atma sometimes is meant, indicating this body, atma is sometimes indicating this mind, atma is soul, and atma, Paramatma, the Supreme Lord. Atma-tattvam. Tattvam means truth, philosophy, or science. So they do not know the science of atma, either take it body or mind. Generally, they take it as this body. So so far body is concerned, there are so many departments: medical department and health department and... I do not remember. There are so many departments. All these departments of knowledge, they are practically on the basis of this body. Then higher than this, atma, if you take it, "mind," there are psychological department, speculation department, philosophical department, so many departments, mind. Then intellectual department. But there is no department of the atma, of the soul. That is the defect of the modern civilization. Therefore Bhagavata says, apasyatam atma-tattvam: [SB 2.1.2] "They have no information of the real atma, of the real position, real background of all these activities. They do not see it." Therefore they have got many subject matter to hear about this body, about this mind, about intellectual activities, and so many things. But because they do not know that atma means the self, they do not know, therefore they have got many subject matter except this one -- the soul, the subject matter of soul. Apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2].
And why they are so much ignorant? "Because they have made home as the center of activities. They do not know; neither they are educated. It is not their fault. The system of education is faulty. They do not give any education about the atma-tattvam. They give education that, about economic development, about technological understanding, about scientific understanding of the laws of nature, and so many other things, but there is no department of knowledge to understand what is soul. Apasyatam. Because they do not see, they do not know, therefore they are too much attached to this body, and this body means home. And home means wife. Wife means children. Children means money. Money means society, so many things. Yes.
Atah grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. First thing is that this material world is existing on sex attraction. And as soon as there is combination of sex, then the next attraction is for home, for land, for children, for society, for wealth, for bank balance, and so many things. Then extend it more, society to nationality, nationality, humanity, and go on increasing, but they are not atma-tattvam. They are all grhesu grha-medhinam, extended selfishness. Selfishness... Just like a dog. He knows simply about his body. He won't allow another dog to come in his boundary. That is very poor selfishness. You extend it little more, human society. There is family, wife, children. That is also extended selfishness. Then you further extend it. You have got society or nationality, consciousness of nationality. That is also still further extended selfishness. Similarly, you extend the same propensity humanity-wise. Because we are...
There is a class of men. They are very much anxious to serve the human society. But they are not anxious to serve the animal society. The animal society may be killed for the satisfaction of the human society. Therefore, unless you come to the point of atma, whatever extended selfishness there is, it is selfishness. There is no, I mean to say, broadmindedness. And broadmindedness, when you come to the platform of atma. Isavasyam idam sarvam. When you come to the point of God, then you see, "Oh, everything belongs to God. Everything belongs to God. Here is an animal. Here is an animal. He also as good as I am because he is also soul." So atma-tattvam to be discussed, but they are not prepared. Therefore grhesu grha-medhinam. So what is their business, those who are blind to the atma-tattvam? So that business is described in the next verse.
nidraya hriyate naktam
vyavayena ca va vayah
diva carthehaya rajan
kutumba-bharanena va
[SB 2.1.3]
So their business is very nicely explained. What is that? Nidraya, sleeping. Sleeping. Hriyate. They waste their life by sleeping. When? At night. Nidraya hriyate naktam. Or they waste their time in sex life. At night there are two things. One who has no advantage of sex life, he sleeps alone. And if he has got advantage of sex life, he enjoys. So at night they waste their life in this way. Nidraya hriyate naktam vyavayena ca va vayah [SB 2.1.3]. In this way their life is being wasted. And at daytime? Now, diva carthehaya rajan. At the daytime, simply "Where is money? Where is money?" Artha. Artha means... Because to maintain this body we require money. Diva carthehaya rajan. All right, if one gets money, then next? Kutumba-bharanena va. Then shopping. As soon as you get money then shopping, the wife's bill. Yes. So in this way, day and night, they are simply under the impression of this bodily conception of life. Why they are doing that?
dehapatya-kalatradisv
atma-sainyesv asatsv api
tesam pramatto nidhanam
pasyann api na pasyati
They are attached because they are attached to this body, therefore attached to the children. Dehapatya. Apatya means children. And kalatra. Kalatra means wife. Dehapatya-kalatradisu atma-sainyesu. This very word sainya... Sainya means soldier. Here in the material world, every one of us is struggling very hard. That is a fact. Everyone knows. So when we struggle, when we fight, then we must have soldiers. Without soldiers, nobody fights. So they are our soldiers: this body... Everyone wants to keep this body fit. And maintaining the children and the wife... Dehapatya-kalatradisu. We are thinking that "My, this body and wife and children and home and country and society will save me." I am struggling against... What is that struggling? I do not wish to die. I do not wish to be diseased. I do not wish to become old man. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. I don't wish to get birth again, or I want to stop birth. Janma-mrtyu. I want to stop death. I want to stop disease. And I want to stop old age. These are the activities, material activities, struggling against. And I am thinking that "These soldiers, or this, my body, or my wife, my children, will protect me," dehapatya-kalatradisv atma-sainyesv asatsv api, although I am experiencing every day that they are asat, they will not exist. How do I know they will not exist? My father has died. My elderly, my mother has died, my grandfather has died. Therefore I will also die. And my next generation, he will also die. My wife also will die. So everybody will die. Asatsv api. They know by experience that they will not exist, but still, their business has become to struggle for existence. Dehapatya-kalatradisu. These are very important subject matter. Try to understand. We know that nobody will exist. I want to exist. That is my intention. I do not wish to die. I want to exist, but I know also that all these, my soldiers, including my, this stout and strong body, it will also not exist. Dehapatya-kalatradisu, tesam pramattah.
Pramatta means crazy, mad. Pramatto nidhanam, distraction. Nidhanam pasyan. Pasyan means although he is seeing every day, every moment. Just like Maharaja Yudhisthira was quested by Yamaraja, "What is the most wonderful thing in this world? Can you say?" Maharaja Yudhisthira immediately replied. What is that? Ahany ahani bhutani gacchantiha yamalayam: "Every moment, every second, every day, every night, there are so many hundreds and thousands of living entities, they are going to the temple of death, or dying." Ahany ahani bhutani gacchantiha yamalayam sesah sthavaram icchanti. "But one who is living, he is thinking that ‘I will not die. I will live for good.' That is the most wonderful thing in this world." Nobody is taking experience that "I will have to meet death. And what is next after death? What I was before my birth? Why I am here? Why I am struggling so hard? I want to be happy. I want to be peaceful. Why there is no peace? Why there is no happiness? Why these things? Why I am put into this...?" These are called atma-tattvam. These are called brahma-jijnasa. If a man is not enlightened to this point of inquiring of this, "What? What I am? Wherefore I am come? What is this world? What is this body? Why I am getting old? Why I am getting diseased?" So many "whys" there are. This is called brahma-jijnasa. But they are pramatta, they are mad after the struggle for existence, although they know nothing will exist, it has come just like a flash, and it will end like a flash. Then what is the actual platform of my life, my living condition? They do not inquire. They do not inquire.
So grhesu grha-medhinam. Dehapatya-kalatradisv atma-sainyesv asatsv api, tesam pramatto nidhanam. Everyone is seeing that it will destroy. Suppose if you know... Suppose you are constructing a very nice skyscraper building, but if you know... Somebody says that tomorrow the whole city will merge into the Atlantic Ocean. Would you like to construct such building? No. I am giving that one example, but it is a fact that the struggle for existence for living, but living condition will not be allowed. Then the next question should be that "Why this is happening? We are, everyone is struggling for existing, but existence, there is no... I will not exist. Nobody will exist." This question, unless there is in the human mind, then, Bhagavata says, parabhavas tavat: "His all activities are simply defeat." Yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So atma-tattvam. One should be inquisitive to understand, "What is my constitutional position?" Then it is perfect life. Otherwise it is crazy life. We may try to live by so much hard struggle of life, but we cannot exist. We can exist only when we understand "What I am." This is diagnosis. If I know that what is my actual need, if I know what is my actual position, if I know that wherefrom I have come and where I have to go, all these informations, if we are fully informed, that is perfection of life. Otherwise it is simply defeat, whatever we may do here. Apasyatam. Tesam pramatto nidhanam pasyann api na pasyati.
tasmad bharata sarvatma
bhagavan isvaro harih
srotavyah kirtitavyas ca
smartavyas cecchatabhayam
Now he is concluding that "Don't be misled by so many subject matter of hearing. Just concentrate upon hearing Krsna consciousness." Tasmat. Tasmat, "Therefore," tasmad bharata, "O descendant of Bharata..." Sarvatma. Sarvatma means the all-pervading Supersoul; bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; isvara, the supreme controller; harih, who can, I mean to say, protect, who can take away all your miseries, who can protect you from all miseries. Tasmad bharata sarvatma bhagavan harih, isvaro harih, srotavyah: "You have to hear about Him." Instead of hearing so many other news, which will not exist, you just try to hear about Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because Pariksit Maharaja's question was that "Now I am going to die. What shall I hear about?" Because hearing is our main business. You are hearing. If you go out from this temple you will also hear. Or the sound is always going on. If we do not want to hear, the hearing is going on. So here it is recommended that "That Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme controller, who is Hari, or who protects us from all difficulty, Hari, and sarvatma -- He is situated in everyone's heart -- that Supreme Personality of Godhead, Supersoul, should be heard." Srotavya, should be heard. We should be prepared to hear about Him. Srotavyah kirtitavyas ca. And we should discuss about Him, kirtitavyas ca. Smartavya. And if we hear and discuss, then, if we are really serious, then we shall remember also. Smartavya, and smartavyas cecchatabhayam. Those who are actually desiring abhayam...
Abhayam means fearlessness. So long we are not connected in Krsna consciousness or not connected with the Supreme Lord, we shall always be fearful. Fearful is one of the qualification of the conditioned soul. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca: four necessities. Why we are defending? Because on account of fearfulness. The animal, a small animal, ant, it has got also fear, and the biggest nation, Russia or America, they are also fearful because this is the qualification of conditioned life: ahara, eating, nidra, sleeping, and fearing, and mating. So if you want to get yourself free from fearfulness, then Sukadeva Gosvami recommends that you have to chant and you have to hear and you have to remember about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the conclusion. Don't try to hear so many nonsense things. Vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. Just concentrate. If you want to hear about God, there are volumes of literature.
One political leader... Perhaps you have heard his name. His name was Madan Mohan Mallabhya.(?) In India. He came to see our Guru Maharaja, and he inquired that "What are your activities?" So then some of our Godbrothers presented that "We have got six periodicals in six languages: one in English, one in Bengali, one in Hindu, one in Oriya, one is Assami. And we have got one paper, Bengali, daily." So this Madan Mohan Mallabhya was astonished that "You are issuing a paper daily, simply discussing about God?" So my Guru Maharaja said, "Yes. Why not?" Then he gave him a nice example, that in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that ekamsena sthito jagat: This material world is only one-fourth part manifestation of God's energy. Now, apart from material... There are innumerable universes and innumerable planets in each universe. Out of that, this earthly planet is very tiny. And in this planet there are so many countries and so many cities. And each and every city there are so many periodicals, so many newspapers, and each paper having so many editions daily. So in comparison to the whole universe or whole material creation, this planet is nothing and this city is nothing. If you can produce so many news, then what about the three-fourth energy, Vaikuntha?
So we can give you a minute edition of the transcendental news of the spiritual world. But unfortunately, there is no customer. There is no customer. The same thing, the srotavyadini... If you put magazines about this material world, you will get many customers. But as soon as we put forward Back to Godhead, we have no customer. The unfortunate thing is that nobody is interested about atma-tattvam. So actually we should be interested to understand. We should be interested to understand atma-tattva if we actually want to be free from fearfulness. Icchata abhayam. Abhayam means fearless. If we are actually... Now, icchatabhayam, who are those? Transcendentalists.
So there are four classes of persons who are trying to get transcendental perfection or spiritual life. They are called jnani, who are trying to understand the Absolute Truth by philosophical speculation, and yogi... Those who are trying to visualize the Supreme Soul within the heart, they are called yogi. And jnani, yogi, and bhaktas, and the devotees. Those who are trying to leave this material world and go back to Godhead and associate with the Supreme Person. There are three classes of men. They are trying to get out of this fearful world. Icchatabhayam. Therefore here, sarvatma, the yogis are trying to find out the Supersoul. Therefore sarvatma. So tasmad bharata sarvatma, and isvara. Isvara. The jnanis are trying to merge into the effulgence of isvara, or the yogis are trying to find out the Supersoul. Therefore sarvatma. So tasmad bharata sarvatma, and isvara. Isvara. The jnanis are trying to merge into the effulgence of isvara, or the yogis are trying to find out the isvara, the supreme controller. And the jnanis are trying to find out the impersonal Brahman. And Hari, and Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead, Hari, or Krsna, or Visnu, the devotees, persons who are in Krsna consciousness, they are trying to find out.
So either of them, their aim is how to get out of this fearful material existence. So Sukadeva Gosvami says, concludes, that icchata abhayam. Abhayam means fearful. If you actually want to be free from fear, then you should concentrate your mind, discussing, hearing, remembering, either of the impersonal Brahman... Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti. Either you think of Brahman or Paramatma or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but your subject matter should be this: hearing, chanting, discussing, talking, knowing. Don't divert your attention to this flimsy, I mean to say, so-called subject matter which will end. Because everything, whatever we are discussing in the material world, everything will end, nothing will exist, we should concentrate our mind on the subject matter which will exist. Because I am soul, I am ever-existing, eternal, my business is, therefore, "What is my eternal engagement?" This subject matter is proposed by Sukadeva Gosvami, and we shall discuss later on, in the next meeting. Thank you very much. Any question?
Guest: What were your activities after your initiation? What were your activities after initiation?
Prabhupada: Initiation means beginning or spiritual activities. Initiation means just to begin.
Guest: What were your activities after that?
Prabhupada: Don't you see what are our activities? Is it very secret? You can see what are our activities. We are discussing about Krsna. We are talking about Krsna. We are chanting about Krsna. We are eating about Krsna. We are typewriting about Krsna. We are dictaphoning about Krsna. Don't you see it? Then? Everything engaged in Krsna consciousness -- that is our activity. The same thing will be there; nothing will be changed. Here we are staying in also big apartment and the down, they are also staying in the similar apartment. But this is called temple, and that is called factory. Why? Here the consciousness is different from the consciousness down. That's all. Nothing has to be changed. Simply the rubberstamp has to be changed. Somebody is signing, "for, on behalf of such and such," and the rubberstamp is changed. We have to change our rubberstamp on behalf of Krsna. That's all. [break]
...sign it. That's all. The business is the same, but little difference, little difference in this way, that we are eating and others are also eating. So so far eating is concerned there is no difference. But we are eating Krsna prasadam, and they are eating sense gratification. That is the difference. We are sleeping; they are also sleeping. But we are sleeping to get energy to work more diligently and nicely for Krsna, and they are working, taking rest for working for sense gratification. So eating, sleeping, fearing. We are also fearful in this way, that "Maya may not catch me." We are always cautious. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Because maya is very strong, so we should be always fearful that "Maya may not catch me." Always stick to Krsna's lotus feet so maya may not be able to touch you. Just like in a contaminated, diseased area, the doctor is also fearful, but he has got prophylactic administration. He is quite fit. He can go even in the contaminated state. Similarly, if we are in Krsna consciousness, even if we are in the midst of mayic activities, it will not affect. So everything is there, but if you change your consciousness, then you are safe. Icchata abhayam, no more fearfulness. That is the process of Krsna consciousness.
Pradyumna: Swamiji, is there such thing as mind, intelligence, and ego on the spiritual realm?
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? Ego... I am thinking at the present moment ego falsely. "I am somebody belonging to this material world," either I may think that "I am American," either I think "I am Indian," something of this material world. But similarly, when you think aham brahmasmi, "I am spirit soul," that is also aham, ahankara. Ego means ahankara, identification, self-identification, ahankara, "I am." Everyone has got the sense, "I am." Now, that "I am" thinking, at the present moment I am thinking in my material concept. So when I will think in spiritual concept, that is my pure ego, pure identification. So ego will remain. Ego will not vanish. This "I" consciousness will remain, but here, at the present moment, I am misidentifying myself, and when I actually know myself, that identification is pure ego.
Hamsaduta: You say the chanting cleans the dust from the mirror of the mind. What does mirror mean? How does it mean mirror? What is it reflecting?
Prabhupada: Mirror means you see so many things within your mind. Is it not a mirror, reflection? Don't you see? As you see mirror reflection of your face, but you see this body. When you will see in the mirror that you are not this body, you are something within this body, that is dustless mirror. Yes?
Devotee (1): What is Balarama's relationship with Radha?
Prabhupada: That is not our discussion here. What you got this Balarama's relation... [break]
Devotee (1): I mean, what is Their relationship? I understand that all the expansions come through Balarama, but...?
Prabhupada: That's all right, but Balarama has no relationship with Radha.
Devotee (1): I mean not a friend or anything?
Prabhupada: No. Who said it?
Devotee (1): I was wondering.
Prabhupada: Why do you think like that? No. Balarama is... Radha... As Krsna has expansion, similarly, Radha has also expansion. So as Radharani is directly connected with Krsna, similarly, Radha's another expansion is connected with Balarama. All Laksmi are connected with the..., not exactly Radha directly. As Krsna expands Himself in multi-forms, similarly, Radha also expands Herself. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta you will find. Yes?
Pradyumna: So in terms of spiritual potency of Krsna, and... Radha was...
Prabhupada: You put an unnecessary question. When I shall ask you to question the subject matter which I have discussed, you should put questions on this matter. If you bring so many other subject matter, there will be no end. Try to understand what we have spoken in this meeting. We have not spoken anything about Radha-Krsna. Why you are bringing this question? Question means the subject matter which we have discussed, if you have got any question about that thing, you should put question. Otherwise, if you make me a dictionary, that go on questioning, there will be no end. That should not be done. Now, we have not discussed here about Radha and Krsna. Of course, this is also relevant question, but the public will not understand. We are discussing on general subject matter. Radha-Krsna discussion is very confidential. You have to go to the platform first of all by understanding Krsna. You see? Radha-krsna-tattva is discussed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam in the Tenth Canto. So first of all you have to go through the nine cantos very carefully. Then you will understand. In the Caitanya-caritamrta you'll find, radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini-saktir asmad ekatmanav api bhuvi [Cc. Adi 1.5]. If you want to discuss about Radha-Krsna, that is not in the public meeting. They are very confidential subject matter. People may misunderstand what is Radha-Krsna. Generally, questions should be put on the subject matter discussed in the meeting. That should be the point. Radha-krsna-tattva is very confidential, for higher status of understanding. Yes?
Himavati: Vyasadeva, you say, lived with his wife and children in a cottage, and people would come and bring them foodstuff from the village. Now, the four divisions of brahma cari, grhastha, vanaprastha and so on, I thought that the grhasthas' duties in the asrama, varnasrama-dharma, was to supply the other three.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Himavati: How is this...? How is this connected with Vyasadeva and his situation?
Prabhupada: Vasudeva?
Devotees: Vyasadeva.
Prabhupada: Vyasadeva? Vyasadeva was a grhastha. He was a householder man. He was brahmana.
Himavati: But he had no luxuries.
Prabhupada: No. Those who will depend on the charities and alms of the society, they are not allowed to make any luxury at the cost of others. They can simply ask help for the bare necessities of life.
Himavati: And that's permitted to the grhasthas?
Prabhupada: No. Grhastha, when a brahmana is grhastha, he shall be a teacher. Pathana-pathana yajana-yajana dana-pratigraha. Generally, the brahmanas, those who are grhasthas... There are four varnas, or division of castes. The brahmanas, they are generally teachers, priests, and writers, philosophers. So society requires all these things, so they take up this charge. And the ksatriyas, they are administrators, so they rule over the country. They exact taxes from the citizens. They live on the tax, and the brahmanas, on the contribution of the public. Just like we are teaching, we are living on the contribution of the public. The public knows that there is an important institution. They are giving good lessons. So public contributes. So we can accept contribution. But a king is not allowed to take contribution. Because he is administrator, he can tax, so his source of income is tax. And the brahmanas' source of income is contribution because they are rendering transcendental service. Similarly, the vaisyas or the mercantile class, their means of living -- trade, cow protection, and agriculture. And those who are sudras, laborer class, they will serve these three higher classes, brahmanas, ksatriyas, and the vaisyas, because they have no independent means. They cannot do anything, neither they are educated, nor they are king, princely order, nor they have money to do business. Therefore they have to serve.
Paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam. Sudra means they earn their livelihood by serving others. And in the Kali-yuga, in this age, ninety-nine percent or at least ninety percent, they live by serving others. Therefore it is said, kalau sudra-sambhavah: "In the Kali, in this age, almost everyone is sudra." There is no brahmana, no ksatriya, no vaisya. Of course, there are vaisyas. Factually, at the present moment the population are the vaisyas and the sudras. And there is fight, that your American nation, they are vaisyas, and the Russians, they are sudras. So there is always fight between the vaisyas and sudras. Actually, there is no brahmana or ksatriyas. They are extinct. And because the brahmanas and ksatriyas are extinct, therefore social orders are in chaos. There is no brain; there is no good administration. That's all. Without ksatriya, there cannot be any good administration, and without brahmana, there is no good brain. Therefore we pray to Krsna, namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, krsnaya govindaya...
namo brahmanya-devaya
go-brahmana-hitaya ca
jagad-dhitaya krsnaya
govindaya namo namah
So this is very important. We are worshiping, offering our respect to Krsna, as brahmanya-deva. Brahmanya-deva means "the Lord who is worshiped by the brahmanas." So Krsna consciousness is not for the sudras. Krsna conscious... One who is elevated to the standard of becoming brahmana, they can become Krsna conscious. But by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, every one comes to the stage of brahminical standard. Only to observe these four principles and chant Hare Krsna, you are at once more than brahmana, Vaisnava. Vaisnava position is more than brahmana. So in this age the pancaratriki-vidhi is introduced because it is very difficult to find out whether a person is actually son of brahmana or higher caste. It is to be accepted that everyone is sudra. It doesn't matter whether and what he is. But he should be given chance to become the Vaisnava, whose position is more than a brahmana. That is the highest gift of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is claiming everyone to the highest stage of Vaisnava. So your question is answered?
Himavati: Yes.
Prabhupada: All right.
Hamsaduta: Swamiji, did you say that householders should not associate with brahmacaris?
Prabhupada: Who said?
Hamsaduta: Did you say that? Did you ever say that?
Prabhupada: No. No.
Hamsaduta: A brahmacari should not associate with brahmacarinis. But you did say that brahmacaris should not associate with brahmacarinis.
Prabhupada: Actually, there is no... Brahmacarini is not allowed in the sastra. Where is the question of brahmacarini? Because according to Vedic system, as soon as a girl is fourteen years old or sixteen years old, she is at once married. According to Vedic system, no girl should be allowed remaining unmarried. So there is no question of brahmacarini. Every girl is supposed to be married. That is the Vedic system. A father's duty is that as soon as the girl is grown up, she must be married. She must be given in charge of a suitable boy. That is Vedic system.
Striyah sudras tatha vaisyah. A woman is meant for being protected. So long she is not young, she is under the protection of the father. And as soon as she is young, she is given in charge, in charity. Kanya-dana. Dana means charity. He should find out some suitable boys and give in charity: "My dear boy, take charge of this girl. So long she was under my charge. Now it is under your charge." So where is the brahmacarini? There is no question of brahmacarini. And when he is old enough, then the husband leaves the home and gives charge to the elderly son: "My dear boys, take charge of your mother." So she is always in charge of somebody. So according to Vedic system, there is no independent life of woman. Na stri svatantryam arhati. Manu-samhita, that "Stri" -- stri means woman -- "should not be allowed independence." They should be given all protection. That's a very nice system. Not... Independence does not mean their position is very lower, no. Just like children. Children has no independence. No independence means they are well-protected. No independence does not meant that he has no independence to act. No. She has got. But under the protection. Just like there are some nation still now, protectorate. America is protecting. America is a big nation, and protecting another small nation. That does not mean they have no independence. They are also independent. They are acting like that. But because weaker, they should be given protection. Similarly, woman, children, brahmana, cow, old men, diseased men, they are to be protected. That is the social order.
Hamsaduta: Now, if someone is married, grhastha, under the varnasrama-dharma, is it the duty of grhasthas to have children? Are there some qualifications of grhasthas, that grhasthas, they're required, like they are required to support the brahmanas, like that?
Prabhupada: Grhastha? Grhastha means to live with wife. This is the meaning of grhastha. And a grhastha is supposed to support others who are not grhasthas just like brahmacari. Brahmacari means student life. So grhasthas support them. [break] ...sannyasis, other three classes. Because they are engaged in a different subject matter, they have no time to earn their livelihood, and therefore, those who are grhasthas, they take charge of him. This is the Vedic system. But they should live also on the bare necessities of life. They should not be luxurious. A brahmacari cannot be luxurious. A sannyasi cannot be luxurious. A vanaprastha cannot be luxurious. Luxury is allowed only to the householder because they are earning their own money. Others are dependent. So one cannot be luxurious at the expense of others. That is not allowed.
Devotee (2): Pertaining to the varnasrama-dharma system, a mother is... the wife of a husband is usually put in charge of the oldest son. If the oldest... If, say, the husband is not present, then the oldest son is supposed to be in charge and he is a brahmacari, in what way is the mother cared for?
Prabhupada: Well, brahmacari means he has gone out of home. Brahmacari does not remain at home. He goes to the spiritual master's home. So there is no question of giving wife's charge to a brahmacari. He is not at home. Do you follow? Yes. The elderly children mean those who are married also, those who are in grhastha life, for him, not for the brahmacari or sannyasi. Just try to understand. A brahmacari and sannyasi does not remain at home. The brahmacari goes to the spiritual master's home and the sannyasi, he is a traveler from one country to another, preaching. So they are not at home. So if they are not at home, who is taking charge? To give charge means the elderly son who is a married man, who is living at home, the charge is given of the mother to him. Is that all right?
Devotee (2): Yes, but I'm still wondering. Is it the nature of the Kali-yuga that mother and father always separate? Is it the nature of the Kali-yuga that this family separation is always happening?
Prabhupada: (chuckles) Therefore I say, kalau sudra-sambhavah: "In the Kali-yuga there are only sudras." There is no brahmacari system, no... Now we are introducing it, even collecting from the sudras. But actually, these four divisions, scientific division of social order for spiritual uplift..., that is already gone. It is not existing. Do you follow? Kalau sudra-sambhavah. In the Kali-yuga, amongst the sudras, there is no asrama, simply earn, earn, get some money and eat. That's all. That is sudras life. There is no question of Vedic culture, there is no question of knowledge. Simply labor, get some money, and eat. Almost like animal. So at the present moment, as you say, in the Kali-yuga, it is accepted that everyone, almost everyone is a sudra. But in the pancaratrika system, not Vedic system, Narada-pancaratra, they are... Otherwise, do you mean to say because everyone has become sudra, the science of Krsna, or Krsna consciousness, should be stopped? No. Even they are sudras, they should be given that opportunity. And that opportunity is given by Lord Caitanya very liberally: "Whatever you may be, come on, sit down, chant Hare Krsna, and you become more than a brahmana." This is the highest gift of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. But if you take otherwise from the social conventional life, oh, there is no brahmana, there is no grhastha, there is no brahmacari. There is all gone, all finished. So those rules and regulation are not now applicable because amongst the sudras there is no such rules and regulation. It is meant for the brahmanas, ksatriyas, and those are gone. They are finished. Now, even though the people are in the status of sudra, they should be given opportunity for spiritual advancement, and that is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's special gift, and very easy, that "Whatever you may be, you may be a brahmana, you may be a ksatriya, vaisya, that doesn't matter. Chant Hare Krsna and gradually realize."
So at the present moment we cannot strictly follow; neither we are strictly following; neither it is possible to strictly follow. As far as possible, that's all. Our conception of brahmacarini is in the Krsna society, because... Especially in India, there is no brahmacarini. But here, in your country, the boys and girls mix very freely, but just to restrict such free mixing, we think that the unmarried girls should remain separately. That is the contemplation. Actually, in the Vedic system there is no brahmacarini system. Or get yourself married. That is our proposal, that we do not allow illicit sex life. That is impediment. That will not enhance your spiritual interests. Yes?
Devotee (2): Swamiji, so the government, the present government in the world...
Prabhupada: We are not concerned with government. We say there is no ksatriya, there is no government. At the present moment, anyone who has got some artificial power, he is government. That's all. You get some way or other a little vote, and you become government. So government does not mean that. Government is another. Because there is no ksatriya, and where is government? They are thinking... Government means they should be always thinking how the citizens should be peaceful and happy and spiritually advanced. That is government. And who is caring for the citizens? They are simply exacting tax. That's all. So actually, in the Kali-yuga, because there is no ksatriya, where is the government? Sudra government is no government. Sudra has no right to govern, but by force they are governing. That's all. "Might is right."
Devotee (3): Swamiji, Indian literature and movies, they're... The subject is quite often romantic love. But in the literature of Indian religion, it seems to me that there's no place for romantic love. It's either divine love or it's, as you say, "cats and dogs." Do you find a place for romantic love within...?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): What is it?
Prabhupada: That is in spiritual world, not in this material... In the material world there is no love. It is lust. We are making business under the name of love. In the material world there cannot be love because... Suppose a girl loves a boy or a boy loves a girl. Both of them are actuated by sense gratification. So that is not love. That is not love. When there is question of sense gratification, that is not love. Just like there is little example. Just like mother loves the child. There is no question of sense gratification. Simply for the sake of love, the mother loves the child. It is simply a little example. Similarly, love means if I love you, I don't want any return. Still, I love you. You may ill treat me. You may badly treat me. You neglect me. Still, I love you. There is no question of return from you. That is real love. That you cannot find in this material world. Because it is based on sense gratification, therefore there is love between a boy and girl, and as soon as there is little discrepancy, there is divorce. They are separated. Because the whole principle was on the basis of lust. So there is no love. Or we do not know what is meant by love. Love does not mean just a boy is attracted by a girl or a girl is attracted by a... That is not love. That is sense attraction. So in the material world there is no love. It is impossible. There is little, little example, just like I cited the example of mother and son or similar. That is also temporary. But real love is in the spiritual... That is Radha-Krsna. That is real love. There is no separation. There is no cheating. There is no divorce. There is no sex attraction. Simply for love's sake, loving, that is real love.
Devotee (3): But in the great literature, lust is not defined as love. It's more defined as something that has to do with spiritual affinity or communication or... In other words, there is a place for romantic love as distinct from lust because lust is rather elementary.
Prabhupada: Romantic love is in the spiritual world, Radha-Krsna. That is the origin of romantic love. And here we are trying to imitate, although we are on the platform of lust. It is imitation, shadow, perverted reflection. So actually, Krsna consciousness means we are trying to reach that platform of real love, exchange of love. The example... One example can be given: just like in diseased conditioned, actually there is no enjoyment, but still, the doctor gives some diet: "You eat this." But he does not enjoy. Eating enjoyment is in healthy life, not in diseased condition.
So our present condition is diseased. Why you are dying? Because you are diseased. Why you are becoming old? Because you are diseased. That is due to this body. But actually I am spirit soul. I am neither old nor diseased, but I have fallen into the condition of material contamination. Therefore I am thinking that I am diseased. This is called maya. Just like in the dream I am feeling that a tiger is eating me, and I am crying, "Here is a tiger eating me, eating me. Save me." But there is no tiger. This is called illusion, or maya. But so long we'll have this body just like so long we shall dream, we shall have to suffer the effect, even it is illusion. A man is crying, "There is a tiger." Actually, there is no tiger; neither tiger is eating. But because he is in hallucination, he is feeling the pain. That is actual fact. So the whole process is to stop this illusion, bodily contamination. Then we are in real life. And then we can understand what is love, what is reciprocation of love, everything. That is real, healthy life. So this human form of life is meant for getting out of this illusion to the spiritual life. That we have been discussing. But instead of taking advantage of this human life, if we simply treat ourself just like animals and be engaged with eating, sleeping, fearing, and mating, then we are missing the chance. So long we have got this human intelligence, we should utilize it for the highest perfectional stage of life. That is Krsna consciousness.
Hamsaduta: What happens to the Vaisnava if he is following the spiritual master and he's not successful in spiritual life? Does he also take birth on higher planets like it says in the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: If he is not successful, he is guaranteed to get another human form of life in rich family or a pious family.
Hamsaduta: Like Bhagavad-gita says.
Prabhupada: Yes. In rich family, to take birth in rich family, means he has no economic problem, so he can engage fully in developing Krsna consciousness. And pious family means automatically he gets chance to become Krsna conscious.
Hamsaduta: So can it be understand that if a person, for instance, some Americans are very wealthy, that they...
Prabhupada: Yes. They must have done pious activities in their previous life, all Americans. But they should know that this is their advantage to become Krsna conscious: "We have no economic problem, but we are employing our facilities in sense gratification." That is a mistake.
Hamsaduta: Suppose a person is born in a very poor family. What does that mean? Suppose someone is born in a very poor, low, very low, and he becomes Krsna conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness is open to all. Just like we are calling everyone, "Come and chant Hare Krsna." It is open to all. There is no question of becoming poor or rich. But if he takes the advantage, that is up to him. We are not restricting here that only the rich persons or brahmanas or pious family or rich family can come here, no. Everyone. Everyone is welcome. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah. Poor family or uneducated family, uncultured family, they are called papa-yoni, sinful family. But Krsna says, "Never mind. Even if he is in sinful family, whatever he may be, if he comes to Me, he also can enter into the spiritual kingdom." So there is no such restriction.
mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]
Param gatim means the highest perfectional life. And that is practical. Here, when people come here, we don't inquire whether he is poor or rich or this or that. "Come on. Sit down. Chant Hare Krsna." The opportunity is equal for everyone.
Hamsaduta: How is it that people who have done some pious activity, they get a nice birth in this statement, but usually people who are not wealthy or not so educated, sometimes they more or less take to worshiping Krsna or God.
Prabhupada: That is the grace of the devotees. The devotees offer their service, and they get the opportunity. Never mind what he is. It is the grace. Therefore, when Bhagavata says, yad-apasrayasrayam... Apasrayasrayam means a devotee is already under the protection of God, and if one takes protection of a devotee, he also becomes a devotee and becomes purified. Therefore a devotee is more merciful than God. Even in God there is consideration -- pious, impious. For a devotee there is no such consideration. "Everyone come." What is the purpose of opening so many centers? Just to give people opportunity to take advantage, without any consideration of his position. But if one does not take the advantage, it is up to him. That independence has everyone. We are inviting everyone to understand Krsna consciousness, but nobody is coming. What can we do? Those who are fortunate, they are taking advantage. That's all.
Now you take the mrdanga, and you chant Hare Krsna. Two mrdangas must be sounded equal, equally, on the same level. And how many cymbals? (end)
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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