Journalist: ...Cosmic Star and we
just changed the name for January, the first issue. The first issue just, well,
it's out, coming off the printer today.Prabhupada: It is published every
month?
Journalist: Monthly, that's correct. And we cover eastern religions.
We did a feature article this month on Bishop James Pike, UFOs, astrology. You
know Dr. Bode, Frambose Bode from the theol... He's with Manley Hall. Are you
familiar with Manley Hall? You don't know Frambose Bode?
Prabhupada:
No.
Journalist: He's from India. Parsee.
Prabhupada: Parsee,
yes.
Journalist: He does an article for us next month. But I spoke to Dan and
I told him that one of the things I would like to ask you, and I think that an
awful lot of our readers, and an awful lot of people in the United States are
terribly confused with the many people who claim to be avataras and who come
from India to this country, one after the other, after the other, and they
say...
Prabhupada: I can declare, they are all nonsense.
Journalist:
That's what... I wanted to... If you could elaborate on that a little
more.
Prabhupada: And I can say furthermore, they're all
rascals.
Journalist: The Maharishi for example...
Prabhupada: He was
rascal number one. I say publicly.
Journalist: Could you explain that, give
me a little background on that and why, because our readers
are...
Prabhupada: I do not know, but from his behavior I can understand he's
a rascal number one. I do not like to know about him, but what he did... But the
wonderful thing is that people in western countries, they're supposed to be so
advanced. How they are befooled by these rascals?
Journalist: Well, I think
that people believe what they want to believe. They're looking for something,
and he comes along...
Prabhupada: Yes. But they want something very cheap.
That is their fault.
Journalist: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now for our disciples,
we don't give anything cheap. Our first condition is character, moral character.
You see? So unless one is accepting moral character, we don't initiate, don't
allow him in this institution. And this Maharishi was, "Oh, you do whatever you
like. You simply pay me thirty-five dollars and I'll give you some mantra." You
see. So people wanted to be cheated, and so many cheaters come. They do not wish
to undergo some disciplinary action, you see? Anything. They have got money.
They think that "I shall pay," and immediately he'll get the
money.
Journalist: Instant heaven.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is their
position. Just like people are trying to go to the moon planet. I have given my
opinion. You have seen in the Los Angeles Times? This chance is very
remote.
Journalist: Oh?
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? Suppose in your country,
you have got some quota for immigration. Within this planet, if somebody comes,
without your immigration department's order, nobody can enter. How do you expect
in that planet where the people are more advanced, they are called demigods,
they are living for ten thousand years, how you expect that you go and you are
immediately enter into the moon planet? And they are selling tickets,
reservation. You see? Everything, they make a fun of it, you see?
Journalist:
Let me understand this if I may. Are you saying that there are people on the
moon?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: There are. And they are
demigods?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: How do you know
this?
Prabhupada: From our scripture, from Vedic literature.
Journalist:
From what literature?
Prabhupada: Vedic literature.
Journalist: How do you
spell that?
Prabhupada: V-e-d-i-c.
Journalist: Oh, Vedic. I beg your
pardon.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: You'll forgive me if
I...
Prabhupada: That's all right, that doesn't...
Journalist: I don't
mean to offend you.
Prabhupada: Sometimes I do not follow your accent. That
is difference of country. That doesn't matter. Yes.
Journalist: And from that
literature, Vedic literature, it is stated in that, that there are people on the
moon.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Journalist: But they're demigods.
Prabhupada:
The demigods means they are highly advanced than these human beings. They are
also living entities like us, but their duration of life, their standard of
life, their civilization, spiritual knowledge, so advanced that they are called
demigods. Almost God. They are so advanced. Demigods means almost God. They have
got all godly qualities, and they are controller of the atmospheric affairs.
Some of them are controlling rainy season, some of them controlling heat. As you
have got controller here, some departmental director of this department,
director of that department, similarly why don't you think that this cosmic
manifestation, there is a great brain behind it and there are different
directors and there is management? People do not accept it. Nature. What do you
mean by nature? Such nice things, such wonderful things are going on
automatically, without any control? You see?
Journalist: Well, I know that's
a question that, of course, one asks oneself all the time, I guess. It's part of
man's quest to find himself and...
Prabhupada: But they should have common
sense that you are trying to float one sputnik, so many scientific brains are
working. And millions of wonderful sputniks which are called planets, they are
floating in the air, there is no brain behind it. What is this? Is that very
good reasoning?
Journalist: I don't know. I must ponder that.
Prabhupada:
You should know it. How it can be. There must be a very big brain behind this.
They are working.
Journalist: Now do you say that the moon is, so to
speak...? What should I say? Headquarters, where these demigods
live?
Prabhupada: No, there are many planets on the same level. There are
many planets. Moon is one of them.
Journalist: Have any of these demigod
creatures visited the earth or...
Prabhupada: Formerly they used to because
at that time people were worth to see them. You see?
Journalist: When you say
formerly, you mean thousands of years ago or...
Prabhupada: No. At least five
thousand years ago.
Journalist: At least, five thousand years ago the last
time that any, that we would... Are they in human form?
Prabhupada: Yes. So
far we get information, sometimes great sacrifices were performed, and demigods
from other planets, they were invited, and they used to come.
Journalist:
Where...? Where...? And this is... Your authority for this statement is based in
the Vedic literature?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: I see. I
see.
Prabhupada: It is not manufactured by me.
Journalist: Oh, I know! No!
I'm not implying that. But I just want to know where the...
Prabhupada: My
authority is Vedic literature, yes. You'll find Bhagavad-gita... You have seen
our book Bhagavad-gita?
Journalist: Yes. We have it at the office. I've seen
it.
Prabhupada: There are descriptions. There are descriptions of these
things. There is description of another nature which is called spiritual nature.
This is material nature. The sky, as far as you can see, this is one universe.
Similarly, there are millions of universes. And all these together, that is
material sky. And beyond that, there is spiritual sky, which is far, far greater
than this. And there are spiritual planets. So this information we have got from
Bhagavad-gita, what to speak of other Vedic literatures. Bhagavad-gita, it is
daily read by practically all over the world, but they do not understand it.
Simply they become student of Bhagavad-gita, or simply just to think falsely
that "I am God." That's all. But they don't take any particular information.
There is a verse in the Eighth Chapter, paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto
'vyaktat sanatanah [Bg. 8.20]. There is another nature beyond this material
nature which is eternal. This nature is coming into existence, again
dissolution. But that nature is eternal. These things are there. Similarly,
there, planets are also eternal. There, living entities, they are also eternal.
That is called sanatana. Sanatana means eternal, without any end, without any
beginning. But this nature, as we have, this body has got a beginning and it has
end, similarly anything, this cosmic nature has a beginning and it has an end.
So our this Krsna consciousness movement is how to transfer our self to that
nature, eternal nature.
Journalist: That's man's quest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
That is the quest. Everyone is trying to be happy because that is every living
entity's prerogative. He is by nature to become happy but he does not know where
to become happy. He's trying to become happy where four things are, miserable
conditions are there, namely birth, death, disease, and old age. So many
scientists, they are trying to become happy, to make people happy, but which
scientist has tried to stop death, to stop old age, to stop disease? Has any
scientist tried?
Journalist: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Then what is this?
Why do they not take consideration that "We are making so much improvement, what
improvement we have done about these four things?" They have no. And still
they're very much proud, advanced in education, science. But the four primary
miserable conditions, they remain as they are. You see? There may be advancement
in medical science, but there is no medicine which can claim "No more disease,
come on." Is there any medicine? So what is that advancement? Rather, disease
are increasing in different forms. They have invented nuclear weapon. What is
that? To kill. But have you invented something so that no more men will die?
That is credit. Man is dying every moment, so you have invented something to
accelerate that death. That's all. Is that very, very good credit? So there is
no solution of death. They are trying to stop the, I mean to say,
overpopulation. But where is the solution? Every minute, there are three persons
increasing. That is the statistics. So there is no solution for birth, there is
no solution for death, there is no solution for disease and there is no solution
for old age. There was a great scientist, Professor Einstein, he also died in
old age. Why did he not stop to check old age? Everyone is trying to remain
youthful. Where is that process? So they do not care how to solve this because
this is beyond their means. They are giving something bluff, that's all. They do
not care what is the real problem and how to solve it. They do not care for it.
But here is a movement, Krsna consciousness. There is the real solution of all
problems, if people take it seriously. Yes. And the whole thing is described in
the Bhagavad-gita. Let them try to understand it. At least, make an experiment.
Why they are so much callous and going in their own way?
Journalist: Let me
ask you... I have my opinion, but I want to ask you. Why do you feel that the
younger people today are turning more and more toward the eastern-oriented
religions?
Prabhupada: Because you have failed to give them
satisfaction.
Journalist: You what?
Prabhupada: You have failed to give
them satisfaction. Your this materialistic way of life will no more satisfy
them. There is a stage, in the beginning, when one is poverty-stricken, he may
think that "Money and woman and good apartment, good car, can give me
satisfaction." They are after this. But after enjoyment, they see "Oh, there is
no satisfaction." Because matter cannot satisfy you. So your stage is, in
America especially, you have got enough for enjoyment. You have got enough food,
you have got enough woman, you have got enough wine, you have got enough house
-- everything enough. This shows that material advancement cannot give one
satisfaction. The confusion and dissatisfaction is more in your country than in
India which is said to be poverty-stricken. You see? But you'll find in India
still, although they are poverty-stricken, because they are continuing that old
culture, they are not disturbed. Yes. They are dying inch by inch, but still
they are satisfied. "All right." You see? Why? Because they have got little
tinge of spiritual platform. So it is necessary now that people should take
spiritual life. That will make them happy. There is no hope. All these people,
they're in darkness. They do not know where they are going. They have no aim.
But when you are spiritually situated, you know what you are doing, where you
are going, what is your future. Everything is clear. You see?
Journalist: So
I just follow up on this very briefly. In other words, you feel that the
western-oriented church, whether it be a synagogue or a church, has failed to
present... Would you say that it's message is not relevant or that they have
failed to present their message properly?
Prabhupada: No. The thing is these
western churches, just like Christianity, these gospels were spoken long, long
ago to the primitive men, you see? Jerusalem. These people were living in
desert, and they were not so much advanced. So at that time... Of course, in
Bible or in the Old Testament, the idea of God is there, that is all nice. But
they... Just like the statement, "God created this world." That is a fact. Now
those people who are not advanced in those... Now, at the present moment, people
are advanced scientifically. They want to know how the creation has taken place.
You see? That explanation is not there, neither the church can give them. You
see. Therefore they are not satisfied. Simply officially going to the church and
offering prayer, that does not appeal to them. Besides that, practically, they
do not follow religious principles. Just like in the Old Testament, there is, I
mean to say, Ten Commandments, and there is Commandment that "Thou shall not
kill." But killing affair is very prominent in the Christian world. They are
maintaining slaughterhouse very regularly, and they have manufactured a theory
that animals have no soul, they do not feel -- because they have to kill. "Give
the dog a bad name and hang it." Why animal cannot feel? Why you are committing
these sinful activities? So the priestly class, they will not also say, they
will not discuss, everyone is silent. That means deliberately, I mean to say,
disobeying Ten Commandments. So where is religious principle? If you don't obey
the commandments of your scripture does it mean that you are following a
religion nicely? How you can kill which you cannot create? And it is plainly
stated there, "Thou shall not kill." What is the answer? Why they are killing?
What is the answer? How do you answer it?
Journalist: Are you asking
me?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: Well, yes, obviously "Thou shall not
kill" is an ethic, and it's timeless and it's valid, but man is not really
interested in...
Prabhupada: They are not interested in religion. It is
simply a makeshow, showbottle. Then how they can be happy? If you do not follow
the regulative principles, then where is your religion?
Journalist: I'm not
arguing with you. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm in total agreement. It
doesn't make any sense. "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt worship no other Gods
before Me," "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass," "Thy shall honor thy
father and thy mother," those are beautiful ethics, but they're not
obeyed.
Prabhupada: "Thou shall not kidnap your neighbor's
wife."
Journalist: Wife, covet.
Prabhupada: So who is following
this?
Journalist: No one. Very few.
Prabhupada: You see? So how you can
expect they're religious. And without religion, human society is animal
society.
Journalist: All right, but let me ask you this. Along this line...
Now I'm not asking you...
Prabhupada: Take it. Take it.
Journalist: Thank
you. I'm not asking you any of these questions facetiously. Please understand.
What does your interpretation, or how does it differ in principle from the basic
Jewish-Christian ethic of the Ten Commandments? How does it
differ?
Prabhupada: There is no difference.
Journalist: All right. Then if
that's the case what have you to offer... When I say "you" I mean it
impersonally.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Journalist: Basically, what have you
to offer that is different than the Christian ethos or the Jewish
ethos?
Prabhupada: Because, as I told you, that none of them are strictly
following God's commandment. I simply come that "You follow God's commandment."
That is my message.
Journalist: In other words, "You obey those
principles."
Prabhupada: I don't say that "You Christian, you become Hindu or
you come to me." I simply say "You obey these commandments." That is my order. I
make you better Christian. That is my mission. I don't say that "God is not
there, God is here," but I simply say that "You obey God." That is my mission. I
don't say that you have to come to this platform and accept Krsna as God and no
other. No. I don't say. I say, "Please obey God. Please try to love God." That
is my mission. And I give the way how to love God very easily. How to love,
provided you agree.
Journalist: Well, see, again we get back to
this...
Prabhupada: So practically you follow that I have no
difference.
Journalist: Yes, I understand. I appreciate.
Prabhupada: Yes.
You believe in God, I believe in God. I simply say "You try to love
God."
Journalist: Well, I... I'm still... It's not that I'm confused. I
understand what you're saying...
Prabhupada: You are confused
still?
Journalist: No. I understand what you are saying. What confuses me or
makes it... When I say, me, and so many of our readers. ...is why is it...? Let
me ask the question again. Let me ask it maybe to become clear in my mind. I
don't want to put words in your mouth, but let me say it this way. Are you
saying that if your mission and the mission of the Jewish, Christian, western
ethic is the same, again let me ask the same question, why is it that the
younger people or people in general, are disenchanted, are trying to go towards
the eastern-oriented religion if their aim or premise is the same as the
western. Why are they going toward the eastern if the premise is the
same?
Prabhupada: Because these Christian people, they are not teaching them
practically. I am teaching them practically.
Journalist: In other words,
you're teaching them what you feel is a practical, every day, daily method of
obtaining this fulfillment of man's spirit.
Prabhupada: Yes. How to... The
love of Godhead is being taught by Bible or Old Testament and Gita, that is all
right. But you are not teaching them how to love God. I am teaching them how to
love God. That is the difference. Therefore young people are
attracted.
Journalist: All right. So the end is the same. It's the method of
getting there.
Prabhupada: Not method. You are not at all following. Even the
method is there. Just as I say, the method is there, "don't kill," and you are
killing.
Journalist: I see, but your... The end is the same. Your
end...
Prabhupada: End is the same.
Journalist: Is the same, but it's the
way...
Prabhupada: Method is also same, but they are not teaching people to
follow the method. I am teaching them practically how to follow and how to do
it.
Journalist: Let me ask you something that we've run into a great deal
just recently. We've just started a youth supplement for kids. And one of the
most... What should I say? That particular thing which provides perhaps the
biggest schism between man's, or at least American man's and woman's love of God
or the following of the Ten Commandments, is the problem, how shall I put it,
well, the sexual problem. We here in this country are taught, and we have the
Puritan background, that sex is a bad thing. And hopefully we're coming out of
it, but when young people, a person reaches the age of puberty... Here in this
country, I don't know from other countries. He begins to have a terrible,
obviously a terrible problem. Now I'm stating something that's obvious. We've
all gone through this. But it seems that is has been impossible for the western
churches to give to the young people something to hold on to so that they can
understand number one that what they're feeling is a normal beautiful thing, and
number two, how to cope with it. And there is nothing in western culture that
teaches or helps a young person to cope with this thing that is a very, very
difficult problem. And I went through it. We all have. Now do you in your
message, give the young people something to hold...
Prabhupada:
Yes.
Journalist: ...to hang onto, and if so, what?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes I
give.
Journalist: What?
Prabhupada: I ask all my disciples to get married.
I don't allow these boys living with boyfriend, girlfriend. No. You must get
yourself married, life like gentlemen, treat your wife as assistant, treat your
husband as your provider. In this way, I am teaching them. This boy was married
just four days before. He is professor. So I have got so many of my disciples
married, and they are living very happily. This girl is married. Formerly, they
were living with girlfriend, boyfriend. I don't allow that. I don't allow
that.
Journalist: Well, let's... Let me get a little more basic. How about
when someone is fourteen, fifteen, sixteen years old?
Prabhupada: The same
thing. Of course, another thing is that we teach our boys to become brahmacari.
Brahmacari. Brahmacari means how to lead the life of celibacy.
Journalist:
Hm?
Prabhupada: Just Howard explain brahmacari life.
Journalist: Yes, I
understand.
Hayagriva: Well, it's control of the senses, and he teaches us
how to control the senses. Generally, marriage doesn't take place until a boy is
about 22, 23, 25.
Journalist: You mean in his culture.
Prabhupada: Yes. We
select girl, say, about 16, 17 years old, and boys not more than 24 years old. I
get them married. You see? And because their attention is diverted to Krsna
consciousness, they have very little interest simply for sex life. You see? They
have got better engagement. Param drstva nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. You see? We give
substitute. We simply don't say that "You don't do it," but we give something
better. You see? Then automatically the "don't" automatically comes. You
see?
Journalist: At the right time.
Prabhupada: Immediately. We give
something better engagement.
Journalist: What is this?
Prabhupada: Just
like our boys and girls, they are all engaged in Krsna consciousness business,
in temple work, in painting, in typing, in recording, so many things. And they
are happy. They are not going to cinema, they are not going to club, they are
not drinking, they are not smoking. So practically I am training them how to
control. And there is possibility because these boys and girls, they are all
Americans. They are not imported from India. Why they have taken to this? The
system is so nice that they have liked it. So if you spread this system,
everything will be solved.
Journalist: So then it...
Prabhupada: We don't
prohibit that you don't mix with woman or you stop sex life. We don't say that.
But we make everything regulated under Krsna consciousness. Their aim is higher.
These are all secondary platform. So in this way everything is
nice.
Journalist: Is this what Gandhi did?
Prabhupada: Huh? What Gandhi
knew? He was a politician. He did not know anything about this
culture.
Journalist: Well, I read that when he was 36 years old he became a
celibate, and that was it.
Prabhupada: That is... Of course, he had some
Hindu cultural ideas, yes. That is nice. He began celibacy, that's all right.
But Gandhi had no very advanced spiritual ideas. You see. He was more or less
politician, statesman. Yes, that's all.
Journalist: Yes. A very courageous
man. Well the answer seems very pat, so to speak, and if it's
that...
Prabhupada: Now, if you cooperate, then I can change the whole thing
in your country. They will be very happy. Their everything will be very nice.
This Krsna consciousness movement is so nice. Provided you cooperate. Nobody is
cooperating. Simply these boys, they have kindly come to me and cooperating. So
my movement is progressing, but very slowly. But if the leaders of the American
people, they come and they try to understand and they try to introduce this
system, oh, your country will be the nicest country in the world.
Journalist:
You... How long have you been involved with this?
Hayagriva: Two and a half
years.
Journalist: Two and a half years? How old are you if I may
ask?
Hayagriva: I'm 28.
Journalist: You're 28. Now, has this sort of
turned you around?
Hayagriva: Ah, considerably. (laughs)
Journalist: From
a practical standpoint, how is this sexual thing that the swami was talking
about, how has this affected you? Have you found that there is efficacy in that
which has been, we were just talking about? 'Cause to me it's a very paramount
problem in terms of young people.
Hayagriva: Well, there are desires, and we
have so many desires. And the sexual desire is perhaps one of our strongest
desires. So...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Hayagriva: So these desires are
channelled so to speak. They are redirected and they are directed toward
Krsna.
Journalist: Well, I understand that, but I'm saying is it efficacious?
Does it work?
Hayagriva: Yes, it works. It works. But you have to stick with
it. It can be very difficult, especially at first, but it works. You have to
resolve to make it work. You have to want it to work.
Journalist: Now, I want
to understand this thoroughly. In other words, it's nothing that you feel that
you're giving up.
Hayagriva: No, it's that when you see something
better...
Journalist: That's what I'm... That's what I mean.
That's...
Prabhupada: Yes. You are accepting something better.
Journalist:
Better. That's, yes. Not by just biting your tongue or your lip saying, "I won't
touch it, I won't touch it." There is a substitute.
Hayagriva: You have a
capacity for enjoyment, and you're not going to give up something... It's very
human not to give up something unless you have something better. So the case is
that you have to get something better than what you want to give
up...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Journalist: How long have you been here,
sir?
Prabhupada: I came here in September 1965, and then I was little
indisposed in May 1967, I think. Then I went back to India. Then again I came
back in December 1967, just one year past.
Journalist: Yes, I see. Why did
you come here?
Prabhupada: Because I want to give this culture to the world,
and my idea is that America is advanced country. If they accept it, then it will
be possible to broadcast the idea throughout the whole world. That is my idea.
But I am hopeful now because these educated young Americans, they are taking
serious interest to this movement. And we are publishing papers, books, and they
are writing very nicely. So I am old man, I may die, but I have implanted the
idea. It will go on. It will go on, and they will be accepted. That experiment
is done. If it is nicely propagated, then it will be accepted without any fail.
And these boys who have come to me, they have taken seriously. So I am
hopeful.
Journalist: I saw your magazine. It's a beautiful
magazine.
Prabhupada: Back to Godhead?
Journalist: Oh yes. A beautiful
magazine.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Thank you.
Journalist:
Beautiful thing. Where is that done?
Prabhupada: It is published in New
York.
Journalist: In New York. I saw the latest issue... Beautiful magazine.
Ah, how many people are in the movement approximately?
Prabhupada: I have got
about a little more than one hundred disciples who are strictly following my
regulative principles.
Journalist: One hundred.
Prabhupada: Yes. In
different branches. I have got about thirteen branches. Some of the disciples
are working in London. Yes, they are doing very nice. They are all married
couples. I got them married. Yes. I got them married. They're young boys, all
within thirty. My oldest disciple he is 28. Otherwise 25, 24. At most 30. And
similarly, girls, you have seen this girl. You see. So I get them, make them
happy in married life. Their mentality is... They are not after so-called
puffed-up life. They can live very simply with the least demand of bodily
necessities, but thinking very high of Krsna consciousness. So I am very hopeful
that even I die... Because I am old man, 73 years old. I may die at any moment.
But I am now assured my movement will go on. These boys will carry it. That, my
mission, is in that way successful. I came here with this idea, that this Krsna
consciousness movement should be started from America. Because anything accepted
by America, people follow because America is considered to be the... Actually
America is not a poverty-stricken country. So they can very easily understand,
they can take it. And there are many confused youths. So with all these
considerations, I came here, and I think I'm successful, yes.
Journalist:
Doesn't seem like very many converts in that amount of time. How many followers
other... (sneezes) Pardon me please.
Prabhupada: That's all
right.
Journalist: How many followers are there then, within...? Just a
hundred?
Prabhupada: Little more than hundred.
Hayagriva: These are
initiates who are strictly following. Of course, there are more and more people
come to the temples. More people join us.
Journalist: How many temples are
there?
Prabhupada: We have got thirteen temples. Thirteen. One in this Los
Angeles, one San Francisco, one in New York, one Santa Fe, one Buffalo, one
Boston, one Montreal, one Vancouver, and Seattle, Columbus, and then London,
Hamburg, in this way... Hawaii.
Journalist: Well, there's got to be more than
a hundred people in thirteen temples.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, more than a
hundred, yes. About a...
Hayagriva: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Yes, I have
got list. There are more than hundred.
Hayagriva: Must be at least because
that would only be an average of ten per temple.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here we
have got about twenty heads in this temple.
Journalist: About twenty. Where
does the money come from to print Godhead?
Prabhupada: God sends.
(laughs)
Journalist: Well, yes, I was pretty sure of that, but God doesn't
write checks and stuff like that. I'm just sort of curious. And I must say
that...
Prabhupada: God dictates you and you pay. That's all.
Journalist:
I must say that that answer to that question is a very ambivalent
answer.
Prabhupada: (chuckling) Yes. I came here... You will be surprised. I
came here with seven dollars only and the whole establishment expenditure is not
less than, I think, five thousand dollars monthly. At least.
Journalist:
That's sixty thousand a year. I mean, is it donated?
Prabhupada: Five
thousand is very minimal. I think it is more than that.
Hayagriva: I have no
idea.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because we are paying... This temple, we are paying
four hundred, simply rent. Similarly each and every place we are paying three
hundred, four hundred rent.
Journalist: Well, do people come to the services
who are not disciples and devotees?
Prabhupada: Yes. No, we allow everyone,
"Come on, chant. Take prasadam." We offer this prasadam. Chant, dance, hear
Bhagavad-gita, and take prasadam, and go home.
Journalist: In other words, if
they want to donate something, they donate.
Prabhupada: Yes. We ask donation,
that "We are simply depending on donation. If you like, you can pay." People
pay. Yes.
Journalist: Yes. Is that how the magazine is
published?
Prabhupada: Magazine also, we take to the market and put it for
sale. People purchase. So actually we have no steady fund.
Journalist: Oh,
you don't.
Prabhupada: No. We simply depending on Krsna. But by the grace of
Krsna, our movement is increasing. It is not decreasing.
Journalist: That's
good. I just am curious about this because it's a beautiful
magazine.
Prabhupada: So try to help us.
Journalist:
Pardon?
Prabhupada: Try to help this movement. Your America, there are so
many rich men. If somebody comes and helps this movement, one or two, we can
make very steady progress. We have no money. We are struggling very hard. You
see? This boy is a professor in the Ohio University. So whatever he's earning,
he's spending for this. Similarly, all the boys whatever they earn, they spend.
But that is not sufficient, you see? We require to make propaganda. We cannot
sufficiently publish this magazine. We want to publish it at least fifty
thousand per month, but there is no money. We are publishing at most five
thousand. (conchshell blowing)
Journalist: Who's blowing the
shofar?
Hayagriva: Conchshell.
Journalist: I thought it was a
shofar.
Prabhupada: What is that? Chauffeur?
Journalist: The Jewish ram's
horn.
Prabhupada: This conchshell sounding is considered auspicious. Yes.
Actually it is conchshell sounding. So after offering prayer to the Lord, we
bugle this conchshell.
Journalist: I guess I've really asked the main
question. Not the main question, but the thing I want to know again was, again,
why this, and about people like the Maharishi, which turned me off and so many
people. My daughter was very involved in that kind of thing for awhile, and
she's terribly disillusioned.
Prabhupada: Yes. The psychology is that your
people, all the western people, especially youngsters, they are hankering after
something, you see? But the difficulty is... Just like me. If somebody comes,
"Swamiji, initiate me." I immediately say that "You have to follow these four
principles," and he goes away. And this Maharishi, he did not put any
restriction, you see? Just like a physician, if he says that "You can do
whatever you like. You simply take my medicine, you'll be cured." That physician
will be very much liked. You see?
Journalist: Yes. He'll kill a lot of
people, but he's very liked.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) And a physician which
says, "Oh, you cannot do this, you cannot do this, you cannot eat this," it is a
botheration. So they want something. That is a fact. But at the same time, they
want it very cheap. Therefore the cheaters come and cheat them. They take the
opportunity. "These people want to be cheated. Oh let us take the advantage."
You see. Otherwise, they are advising that "You are God, everyone is God. You
just realize yourself, you have forgotten. You take this mantra, and you become
God, and you become powerful. Whatever you like, you can control. And there is
no control of senses. You can drink, you can have unrestricted sex life and
whatever you like." People like this. "Oh, simply by fifteen minutes meditation,
I shall become God, and I have to pay only thirty-five dollars." So many
millions of people will be ready, "Oh, let me." I mean, thirty-five dollars in
your country is not... But that much, thirty-five multiplied by million, it
becomes thirty-five million dollars. (laughs) And we are crying here because we
cannot bluff. We say that if you actually want, you have to follow these
restrictions. We cannot allow you that the commandment is "You shall not kill,"
and I shall say, "Yes, you can kill. The animal has no feeling. The animal has
no soul." We cannot bluff in this way. You see.
Journalist: Well that's just
about it, that I wanted to know. It's a shame that this kind of thing, as I say,
has turned off an awful lot of kids, a lot of very disenchanted young people
because...
Prabhupada: So please try to help us. This movement is very nice.
It will help the humanity. It will help your country, the whole human society.
It is a genuine movement, there is nothing bluff, nothing cheating. It is
authorized. So I'll request you because...
Journalist: Authorized by
whom?
Prabhupada: Authorized from Krsna.
Journalist: Is there in India a
licensing body by the state for people to preach or to... How in the heck would
you say it here?
Prabhupada: It was not there because in India there are so
many churches, and they're supposed to be very saintly person. So simply to
become a disciple of a saintly person is sufficient certificate. Just like in
your country, marriage requires certificate. In India still, there is no
certificate. The boys and girls, they are seated before the relatives and priest
and elderly persons. They are offered. I am doing that. There is no certificate.
But still their connection is lifelong. What certificate will do? That ceremony
is so nice, the wife takes "My husband for life" and the husband takes wife,
"She is my companion for life." They cannot separate. There is no history in
India that there was a certificate issued. No. But still, their connection is so
nice, that life long. Now, they are being westernized, especially I am very
sorry to say that lately our so-called westernized leaders they are introducing
this Hindu code bill, this marriage certificate, this and that. But formerly
they weren't existing.
Journalist: Is there much divorce in
India?
Prabhupada: Yes. The modern, so-called advanced boys and girls, they
are now after divorce. But before that, even there was misunderstanding between
husband and wife, quarrel, there was no question of divorce. Take my life
practical. I was a householder. Now I have given up. So practically I did not
agree with my wife, but there was no dream of divorcing. You see? Neither she
dreamt, neither I dreamt. This was unknown. Now they are being
introduced.
Journalist: Yeah. Western culture.
Prabhupada: Ah,
yes.
Journalist: Do you have much of a following in India
itself?
Prabhupada: Yes. Not my personal, but my other Godbrothers, this cult
is very good.
Journalist: How many, how many...
Prabhupada: Oh, millions.
We have got, this Vaisnava philosophy, the Krsna consciousness, million and
millions. Almost all. 80 percent. You ask any Indian and he'll talk so many
things about Krsna consciousness. He may not be my disciple, but there are many
saintly person like me. They are doing this business.
Journalist: Did you get
formal training with a...
Prabhupada: Yes, I was initiated by my Guru
Maharaja. His, here is that, my spiritual master's photo.
Journalist: Oh, I
see.
Prabhupada: Yes. So when your country wanted a certificate for making me
permanent resident, so I got a certificate from my Godbrothers that I am
initiated. That's all. But otherwise, in our country, there is no necessity of
certificate.
Journalist: In other words, there's nothing like going to a
seminary in India where you go to a seminary or a monastery and take a course
for four years...
Prabhupada: No, this is monastery. Yes, there is a
monastery. We have got institution, Gaudiya Math Institution. They have got
hundreds of branches, yes.
Journalist: You go for a prescribed course of
study?
Prabhupada: Yes, prescribed course of study, these two, three books,
that's all. Anyone can read. Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam or
Caitanya-caritamrta. You'll learn everything. You haven't got to learn so many
huge volumes of books. Because Bhagavad-gita is such nice book, if you can
understand one line, you advance hundred years. You see? So, I mean to say,
meaningful and so solid. Therefore we have published this Bhagavad-gita As It
Is. Let your people read it, let them question, and try to understand what is
this movement.
Journalist: Macmillan is publishing this one.
Prabhupada:
Yes, Macmillan is publishing.
Journalist: Now when you... Do you go to this
institute for a certain period of time?
Prabhupada: There is no fixed period.
No. But, say, for me, I was trained, my father was of this
line...
Journalist: Oh, your father...
Prabhupada: Oh yes. My father
trained me from childhood, yes. And then I met my spiritual master in 1922, and
I was initiated in... On the whole there was a background, because as I told
you, 80, 90 percent people are Krsna conscious by family-wise. You see? So we
were trained up from the beginning of our life. Officially, of course, I
accepted my spiritual master in 1933. Since then, I had some background, and
since I met, I developed this idea. Yes.
Journalist: I see, I see. So you
have been, in a sense, spreading this word since 1933 on your
own.
Prabhupada: No. I'm spreading as missionary since nineteen hundred...,
practically since '59.
Journalist: '59, I see. What did you do from the
time...
Prabhupada: I was a householder. I was doing business in medicine.
Formerly, I was manager in a big chemical firm. But I was cultivating this
knowledge although I was householder. I was publishing this Back to
Godhead...
Journalist: So you were publishing that...
Prabhupada: In
India.
Journalist: Oh, I see.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. I started in 1947
under the order of my spiritual master. So whatever I was earning, I was
spending. I was not getting any return, but I was distributing. So I was doing
this business since a long time. But actually after giving up all connection
with my family, I'm doing this work since 1959.
Journalist: Do you have
children?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, I have got grown-up boys.
Journalist: You
just left them?
Prabhupada: Yes. I have got my wife, my grandchildren,
everyone, but I have no connection with them. They are doing their own way. My
wife is entrusted to the elderly boys. Yes.
Journalist: Well, is that a...? I
mean I find that sort of difficult to assimilate, to give up your family and
just sort of say, "See you later."
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the Vedic
regulation. Everyone should give up family connection at a certain age, after
the age of 50. One should not remain in family life. That is Vedic culture. Not
that up to death, one is in family-wise, no. That is not good.
Journalist:
Can you explain that.
Prabhupada: First of all, a boy is trained as
brahmacari, spiritual life. Then he is advised not to enter family life. But if
he is unable to control his sex life, he is allowed, "All right. You get
yourself married." Then he remains in family life. So he marries at the age of
24 or 25. 25 years, let him enjoy sex life. In the meantime, he gets some
elderly children. So at the age of 50, the husband and wife goes away from the
home and they travel in all places of pilgrimage just to detach them from family
affection. In this way, when the man is a little more advanced, he asks his wife
that "You go and take care of the family and your sons, grown-up, they'll take
care of you. Let me take sannyasa." So he becomes alone and preaches the
knowledge which he has acquired. This is Vedic civilization. Not that a man
should remain in family life from birth to death. No. In Buddhism also there is
compulsory regulative principle that a Buddhist must become a sannyasi at least
for ten years. Yes. Because the whole idea is how to attain spiritual
perfection. So if one remains in his family life, encumbered, he cannot make any
spiritual advancement. But if the family also, whole family is Krsna conscious,
then it is helpful. But that is very rare. Because the husband may be Krsna
conscious, the wife may not be. But the culture was so nice that everyone
remained Krsna conscious.
Journalist: Do you think that, really, from a very
practical standpoint, do you think that your movement has a chance to make it
here in America?
Prabhupada: So far I've seen it has great chance. What do
you think?
Journalist: From a very pragmatic standpoint what do you think?
Really.
Hayagriva: Yes, it has possibilities. I don't know about on a wide
scale, but it definitely has possibilities. Especially in I think in these
areas, in the cities.
Journalist: Cosmopolitan areas.
Hayagriva: Of
course, we're also starting a community in West Virginia.
Journalist: You
are? Why West Virginia?
Hayagriva: Well, this is where we're starting. I've
just started it with other's help.
Journalist: You're starting
it?
Prabhupada: He has secured a land, about 138 acres.
Journalist: May I
ask you why you picked West Virginia?
Hayagriva: Well, it's mountainous and
it's very economical living there.
Journalist: Yes, it is mountainous. Well,
I mean there's mountains here too. I'm not being facetious. Again, I'm just
curious.
Hayagriva: No, it's very economical living there and it's also
nicely located because we have temples in New York and in other areas in the
east. So it's sort of like, between the east and the west, so it's sort of
centrally...
Prabhupada: And one thing is that main supporter is he. He is
working in Ohio University. He's nearer.
Journalist: Where are
you?
Hayagriva: In the Ohio State University.
Journalist: That's where you
teach? How come you're not teaching now?
Hayagriva: This is Christmas
vacation.
Journalist: Oh, you're on a vacation. You have tickets to the ball
game?
Hayagriva: No.
Journalist: Oh. What the heck. I come all the way
down here and you can't give me a ticket to the ball game. Ohio State or Ohio
University?
Hayagriva: Ohio State. Yes, they're playing the game
here.
Journalist: Do you think?(?)
Hayagriva: No. That Rose Bowl
game.
Journalist: Yeah, I would feel that you had not attained that level of
being out of it yet that you wouldn't know that. I really think I've asked most
of the questions that I want to ask. I really sort of knew the answers. The
ultimate of the answer, that is. I can't really think of much else to say or to
ask. Have you anything that you'd like to say that may be of some kind of
revelation to me or to our readers or something that... You know, what you're
really saying, there's no easy way out. (laughs) If man is to attain any goal in
his quest for fulfillment, he's got to work at it is really what it amounts to.
So your message is really no different from that of Moses or Christ or any of
the other great religious leaders. If people will follow the ethic of Ten
Commandments, and follow it, that's where it is.
Prabhupada: We ask people...
We don't say that "You give up your, this religion. You come to us." But at
least you follow your own principles. And... Just like a student. Sometimes in
India it happens that although they have passed M.A. examination in Indian
university, they come to foreign university to study more. So why does he come?
To get more enlightenment. Similarly any religious scripture you may follow, but
if you get more enlightenment here in this Krsna consciousness movement, why
should you not accept it if you are serious about God? Why should you say, "Oh,
I am Christian. I am Jew. I cannot attend your meeting." Why should you say,
"Oh, I cannot allow you to speak in my church." If I am speaking about God, what
objection you have got?
Journalist: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm
sure you know and I'm certainly aware that it's only recently that, for example,
a Catholic couldn't even come in here because of some other church. That's
changed.
Prabhupada: Now I have written one letter to Pope. You have seen
that? Where is that paper?
Hayagriva: It's in here.
Journalist: Oh, a
letter to the Pope. Did he answer it?
Prabhupada: No, I have not received any
answer. Is it in this paper? No, not in this paper. Where is the latest? Who is
there? Ask to bring one latest. Bring one latest, yes. So we just that letter,
but unfortunately, I have received no reply. How is that?
Journalist: I guess
he doesn't figure that you're of sufficient importance for him to deign a reply,
I guess. That's about the way I figure it. They don't...are inclined not to give
credence to too much that isn't of his own doing or making or
something.
Prabhupada: Do you think that is very nice? Just... Will you read
or, read this. Read it. (pause)
Journalist: What is the "renounced
order"?
Prabhupada: This is renounced. I have no family
connection.
Journalist: Oh, oh. (pause as journalist reads
letter)
Prabhupada: I used to cooperate with everyone, but they are
declining. What can I do? I am prepared to talk with any God conscious man. Let
us chalk out a program so that people may be benefited, but they want to go in
their own stereotyped way. The Pope himself is harassed by the contraceptive
proposal. People want sanction from him to use unrestricted contraceptive
method.
Journalist: But you've received no reply at all.
Prabhupada: If we
see that following a particular type of religious principle one is developing
his love of Godhead, that is first-class religion. But if one is developing his
love for demon or mammon then where is the religion?
Journalist:
True.
Prabhupada: (laughs) You see. That is our test. If you have
developed... We don't say that you follow Christianism or Muhammadanism or
Jewism or Hinduism -- we don't say. Whether you are developing your love of
Godhead. But they deny, "Oh, I am God. Who is God? I am God." You see? Everyone
is taught nowadays that everyone is God. Just see how fun. Everyone is God. Do
you think like that?
Journalist: You know from Meher Baba?
Prabhupada: He
is also another rascal. He is preaching this that everyone is
God.
Journalist: He says he's God.
Prabhupada: He's God. Just see. This is
going on.
Journalist: Do you know him?
Prabhupada: I have heard his name.
I don't care to know these people. He's making some propaganda he's
God.
Journalist: He says he hasn't spoken in forty years, forty-five
years.
Prabhupada: That means people do not know what is God. Suppose if I
come to you, if I say I am President Johnson, will you accept me?
Journalist:
No (laughing) I don't think I would.
Prabhupada: But these people, rascals,
will accept him as God because they do not know what is God. That is the defect.
We know what is God, therefore we cannot accept any rascal declaring that he's
God. That is the difference.
Journalist: Well it's just absolutely absurd
that somebody comes out and tells you he's God.
Prabhupada: But how much
rascal he is who accepts him as God. He's rascal number one. He is a cheater and
the man who is cheated he is also another rascal. He does not know what is God.
Anybody comes as God, as God has become so cheap it can be available in the
market, everywhere.
Journalist: Well of course the western concept that man
is created in the image of God, consequently God must look like man kind of
thing, therefore any man can be God.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You have
got so many scientists. Just find out what is the image of God, whether his form
is not... Where is that department? You have no such department. You have got so
many department, technology department, this department. Where is that
department, what is God to know? Is there any department of
knowledge?
Journalist: I don't know if... There's no God department working
tonight I'll tell you that right now.
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty. And
here is, here is the Krsna conscious movement is the department of knowledge how
to know God. Then you'll not accept any rascal as God, you'll accept only God as
God. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Press Interview -- December 30, 1968, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
