Pradyumna: ...fire.
Prabhupada: Is it ?
Devotee: No.
Pradyumna: "Vayuh... (leads chanting, etc.) Translation: "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego -- altogether these eight comprise My separated material energies."
Prabhupada:
bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh
kham mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyam me
bhinna prakrtir astadha
Prakrti means energy. So, because we are in the material world, our material science is simply studying the material energy of Krsna. Physical, chemical, light, sound, these are the subject matter of the scientists to understand. But they do not know wherefrom these material elements come.
In the Srimad-Bhagavatam or in the Vedic literature it is said that the material energy came out of the breathing of the Supreme Lord, Maha-Visnu.
yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya
jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah
visnur-mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.48]
The material energy is coming through the breathing of Maha-Visnu, who is lying down in the Karana, Causal Ocean. So, from the breathing there is sound. From the ether, the sound comes -- this is scientific -- and from the sound, the air comes, the fire comes, then water comes, then the earth comes. The earth is the last, gross element in the material science. Therefore Krsna says this earth, bhumi... Bhumi, earth, has come out of water, apah. And wherefrom apah, water, has come? Analah, fire. Wherefrom fire has come? From air. Where the air has come? Ether, sky. Wherefrom the ether has come? False ego. Where from it has come? Mind. Wherefrom it has come? Intelligence. And wherefrom it has come? From the soul. This is the scientific study. But they do not know background of the soul. They're thinking, "There was a chunk and there was something. That's all. Perhaps, it may be." No definite knowledge. But here you can take the definite knowledge, wherefrom these material elements come. This Krsna is the Supreme Soul.
So from the Supreme Soul all these material elements have come. Just like your body. Wherefrom it has come? It has come from the soul. In the sastra it is said, karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha-upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. Jantu. Jantu means living entity, jan word(?), jantu. So jantur deha-upapatti. There... The atheist theory that combination of matter makes a situation when living symptoms come out, combination of matter, that is the present chemical theory, chemical evolution. There are so many theories based on Darwin's theory, chemical evolution. Recently, when I was in Los Angeles, one German scientist came there. He has written one book, Chemical Evolution, and he has got Nobel Prize. Now he's touring for lecturing on his theory. So in the California university there is our student, Dr. Svarupa Damodara. He's my disciple. He's doctor in chemistry. So, when this German chemist was lecturing, theorizing that life has come from chemicals, so he put the question that "Suppose if I give you these chemicals, whether you can prepare a life?" He answered in the meeting, "That I cannot say." That means he's not certain; still, he's theorizing, that from chemical, life has come. No, from chemical, life has not come; from life, chemical has come. This is real theory.
So these things are discussed very broadly in our American centers, so we stick to the point that life does not come from chemical, but chemical comes from life. So I gave one crude example. Just like a tree. It is also life, because there are different forms of life, 8,400,000 forms of life. So a tree also, another form of life. One who knows what is the condition of life, pandita, learned, sama-darsinah.
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
[Bg. 5.18]
Pandita, who knows what is what, he is sama-darsi, equipoised. He knows that the substance within the tree or substance with the dog or substance with the human being or substance within the brahmana or a sudra or a dog or a candala -- the soul is the same. Therefore, he sees everyone, sama-darsinah. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. He does not distinguish between man and animal or tree. Because he knows that the living force is the same, spiritual quality that is the fragmental portion of the supreme soul, Krsna. So we can understand, if we are little sober, how material things come out.
Now, we understand from sastra that after sex between man and woman, the matter is emulsified and creates a situation wherein the living entity takes shelter. Karmana daiva-netrena. So, living entity, every one of us, dehantara-praptih, we shall get another body. So what kind of body we shall get? That is karmana daiva-netrena. That will be judged by higher authorities according to our karma. If we have done work like human being, then further promotion will be given.
urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
madhye tisthanti rajasah
jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha
adho gacchanti tamasah
[Bg. 14.18]
There are three qualities of the material nature. One who is associating with the modes of goodness, they're being promoted to the higher planetary system. Those who are associating with the modes of passion, they will remain within this middle planetary system. And jaghanya-guna-vrtti-sthah, those who are most abominable, acting most abominably, jaghanya-guna, adho gacchanti. This is confirmation. Adho gacchanti: "Goes down," to the animal kingdom, to the beast, birds, reptiles, snakes so many things. There are eight millions forms. It is daivena, daiva-netrena. Netrena means "by supervision." Background of the supervision is Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate ca-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. They are absolute.
In the Bhagavad-gita, in another place, it is said that upadrasta anumanta. The Supersoul, soul and Supersoul... There are two souls: the supreme soul and the subordinate soul within the body. So what we are doing, subordinate soul... The supreme soul or the Supersoul, who is also sitting with me within the heart, He is upadrasta anumanta. He's simply seeing. And anumanta means without His sanction we cannot do anything. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. Everyone has got experience. When we want to do something wrong, there is conscience: "Don't do it." "No, no, let me do." There is struggle. So this is the struggle between the soul and the Supersoul. But when you're persistent, that "I must do it," then the Supersoul orders, "All right, you can do at your own risk." That is called karma-phala. We have become subjected to the resultant action of our karma. That is called karmana. By the activities, daiva-netrena, by the superior authorities' superintendence, daiva-netrena, jantur deha-upapatti, the living entity gets a type of body. What is this body? The five elements, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca. Eight elements. Earth, water, fire, air, and sky, the mind, intelligence and ego. Ego, false ego. The false ego is that "I am this body." Ahankara. Ahankara: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." These are all false ahankara. Neither I am Hindu nor Muslim nor Christian nor American nor Indian. I am living entity.
mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]
Krsna says that "All these living entities, they are My part and parcel, but they are struggling hard against these material laws." Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. By mental concoction he's creating a situation and he's getting that type of body. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of body? These are the creation of our mental concoction: "I shall do that, I shall do that, I shall do this, I shall do this." So this is daiva-netrena. He gets daiva-netrena, by superior... Just like a child insists upon doing something. The father says, "All right, do it. I don't mind." He says, "Don't do it," but he persists, "I must do." "All right, do it." There are many examples.
So there is soul and there is the gross material body and there is the subtle material body. The soul is the basic principle, but to get a body, as I have already explained, the secretion discharged by the father and the mother, they mix up, they are emulsified and forms in the body of a pea. And the soul comes through the semina of the father and he's situated there. Then the body develops. Now, just try to understand. Because the spirit soul is there, therefore matter is developing. If the soul is not there, if the child is dead, no more development. No more development. No dead child develops a body. Everyone knows. Therefore these material elements come from the spirit soul, not that spirit soul comes from the material elements. This is not. This is wrong theory. If it comes from the material combination, then why you cannot produce a living entity in the laboratory? In the laboratory, no, that is not... A material... Because... Material creation is there because I wanted a, such a circumstances, atmosphere, and anumanta, the Supreme Lord, He's the supreme sanction giver -- He gives me opportunity to enter into a certain type of mother's body, and the material grows.
So the actual fact is from spirit soul, the energy, material energy comes out. Take for example... That I was giving, that chemicals. Now, take one lemon tree. It is a living entity, and it is producing at least hundreds of pounds of citric acid, lemons. Everyone knows. You take fifty lemons today, again take fifty lemons, and if you extract the lemons, you'll find extensive quantity of citric acid. So wherefrom the citric acid chemical comes? Because the living entity's there in the tree. Therefore the conclusion should be the chemicals come from life; life does not come from chemical. If life comes from chemical, then you produce. I give you the chemical, whatever chemicals you want. So chemical is produced. Just like you have got experience when there is perspiration. You taste the perspiration; there is salt. Wherefrom the salt comes? Salt is... what is the chemical name? Sodium carbonate, no?
Devotee: Chloride.
Prabhupada: Sodium chloride. Sodium chloride. So sodium chloride, wherefrom it comes? It comes from your body, and body comes from the soul. Therefore the original cause of sodium chloride is the soul. So as you can analyze a little quantity of chemicals from your body, from tree's body, from any body, so you just imagine the unlimited body, gigantic body of Krsna, virat-purusa, how much chemical it can produce. Therefore, don't take it that this is all imagination. Krsna says,
bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh
kham mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyam me
bhinna prakrtir astadha
"These eight kinds of materials, gross and subtle, they are My energy." It is coming from Krsna. Krsna is not talking any nonsense. He's not bluffing you. At least those who are advanced, why you are reading Bhagavad-gita? Because it is authoritative; Krsna is speaking. That is fact. The most exalted authority. We have to take knowledge from the authority; we cannot manufacture knowledge. That is not... That is imperfect knowledge, because our senses are imperfect.
We have got four deficiencies. We commit mistakes, we become illusioned... We commit mistake, everyone knows. I have several times talked that even a personality like Gandhi, he committed so many mistakes. So, so long you are conditioned by the material nature, you must commit mistake. There is no escape. Similarly, we are illusioned. Illusioned means we accept something for something. Just like you are accepting this body -- "I am American," "I am Indian" -- but I am neither American nor Indian; I am spirit soul. This is called illusion. Bhrama, pramada, and vipralambha. Vipralambha means the propensity for cheating others. I do not know exactly what is the cause of life; still, I am theorizing in so many ways. And when I am challenged by other person that "Can you produce, with chemical, life?" "That I cannot say." Then why you are talking nonsense? This is cheating. If you are actually in knowledge that from chemical, life can be produced, then you produce it. I give you chemicals. But when you cannot do, why you are cheating people? But this cheating propensity is there. One is a nonsense number one, but he speaks. "Devils cite scripture." That we do not accept. Our Krsna consciousness movement does not accept the scripture cited by the Devil. Therefore we have accepted Krsna, sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. Whatever He says, we accept. We are not perfect, our senses are not perfect, we are fool number one, but the knowledge which we accept, that is perfect. That is Krsna consciousness.
Therefore, whatever we speak, we do not speak anything which Krsna does not speak. That is our quality. I have several times, I was eulogized by many persons, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful." So I say that I am not a wonderful man. I simply follow Krsna. What Krsna says, I repeat, like parrot. That's all. I have no knowledge. But Krsna says that "This is this." I accept it. And then that will be... That we shall be benefited. Just like a child. If he accepts the instruction of the parents, he gets knowledge. Parent will not cheat. If a child does not know a small watch, he asks, "Father, what is this?" Father can explain, "My dear child, this is called watch. You can see time, what is the time now." That is perfect knowledge. So that knowledge is perfect. Therefore in the beginning of this chapter and in the Fourth Chapter we said, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. If we get knowledge by the pure parampara system, pure disciplic succession, that knowledge is perfect. Then our life is perfect. And if we want to try to expound knowledge by our limited power, that is imperfect knowledge. That knowledge is not perfect. That is concoction. If you want to take perfect knowledge, then you must get from the authorities. Evam parampara. That is Vedic knowledge.
tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham
[MU 1.2.12]
One must go to the guru. And who is guru? Guru, srotriyam brahma-nistham -- "One who has heard from the parampara system and he has become completely convinced in the understanding of Brahman."
So, so this is the process. This bhumir apah, this material, it is not a fact. People are so much attached to this material world. That is called ignorance. Mudha. They are called mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnanah. Their knowledge has been taken away. These things will be explained in the later verses, that do not try to take knowledge from imperfect person; take knowledge from the perfect person, perfect Supreme Personality. Who is perfect? God is perfect. And who carries the word of God, he is perfect. This is the definition of perfection. So Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh. Matter is produced by Krsna's energy. It is not automatically produced. Just like I have given the example that this body, this material gross body, is produced out of the soul which is put into the womb of the mother by the semina of the father. These are... These descriptions are there in the Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, very nicely, you consult.
So that knowledge is perfect because experimentally... Science means observation and experiment. If you are observing something, then you must experiment. Jnanam vijnanam. In the previous verses we have already studied that jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam. Jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam. Theoretical knowledge, that is observation. And sa-vijnanam means experiment. If you say, if you have observed that life is produced of chemical, then make experiment. Then it is science; otherwise it is hodge-podge. It has no meaning. Life is never produced of matter; matter is produced out of life. This is the... Therefore we are fragmental matter, life. We living entities, small portion, very small portion. That is also given in the sastras: kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madya 19.140]. One ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair, that is the magnitude of soul.
kesagra-sata-bhagasya
satadha kalpitasya ca
jiva-bhagah sa vijneyah
sa canantyaya kalpate
[Cc. Madya 19.140]
That jiva, ananta, unlimited. That is our magnitude. They cannot find out one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. There is no machine, no microscope which. Therefore these foolish people, because they cannot see the dimension, length and breadth, of the soul, they say the soul is nirakara. It is not nirakara. It has akara, but you cannot see with the blunt eyes. "Then how can I understand?" Srotriyam brahma-nistham, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn by hearing. There is no other process. The Vedas says, the sastra says, "This is the magnitude of the soul." You have to take it. Then you will understand. Otherwise, by so-called experiment, you have neither instrument nor facility to make, find out. The first-class medical man or physiologist, find out where is the soul in this body. But they cannot. They have no such power, but there is something which, being absent, the body is dead. That is a fact. That is a fact. Tatha dehantara-praptih. That... Because that soul has gone out of this body, therefore the body is now dead. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Therefore it is authority.
What is the distinction between dead man and living man? That you have to understand. You cannot make experiment why the body is dead. But you can understand when you touch Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says,
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]
Dhirah, those who are actually learned, sober, he is not agitated by the death of a man because he knows that the soul has now changed this body to another body, just like he was changing from child's body to baby's body, baby's body to boy's body, boy's body to youth's body, from youth to old man's body. Now, from this old man's body, now the body cannot be used. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like old garments we give up and take another garment, similarly, so long we are in the material world, we accept another material body. This is called transmigration of soul, death and birth. But when you are liberated from this conditioned life -- you are fit for going to the spiritual world in your spiritual body -- that is perfection of life. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. That is wanted. That is wanted. You give up this body. Don't accept any more any material body, either Indra's body, Brahma's body, or the body of the worm of the stool. You can have any body, according to your mentality. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Your body, are you making now. So at the time of death, the condition of your mind will transfer you with mind, intelligence, subtle body. They are seeing that this gross body's finished, but they cannot see that there is another body which is made of mind, intelligence and ego. That is called subtle body. That will be explained, next verse.
So this knowledge... So people are simply mad after this material enjoyment. He does not know that this material body is temporary. It is for a certain years only. But you are eternal. Just try to understand what is your eternal business. Why you are so much mad after this temporary business? That is stated in the Srimad-Bhag...
nunam pramattah kurute vikarma
yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti
na sadhu manye yata atmano 'yam
asann api klesada asa dehah
[SB 5.5.4]
Klesada. This material body is klesada. Klesada means always giving us trouble, always giving. Klesada asa. So one should always remember that "I have got this material body, which is suffering heat, cold, matra, sukha, duhkha, happiness, distress." Why? Because this material body...
matra-sparsas tu kaunteya
sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah
agamapayino 'nityas
tams titiksasva bharata
So long you have this material body, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhih, then... Material world means suffering. You cannot avoid suffering. But the endeavor is how to get out of suffering. That is called struggle for existence.
So you cannot get out of it so long you do not stop acceptance of another material body. That is called real liberation, no more accepting material body. Therefore Bhagavata says that "These madmen..." Nunam pramattah. Pramattah. Mattah means mad, and pra means prakrsta-rupena, sufficiently mad. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [SB 5.5.4]. There are karma, vikarma and akarma. So one should know. Vikarma means criminal activities. Just like so many people are acting criminally simply to get money, as if money will save him. If he acts criminally, simply sinful activities, and by such, he is punished to get another body which is sinful, papa-yoni, then what is, how his money will save him? No, that cannot save. Just like if you have become criminal and you are arrested by the state. Suppose you are millionaires. Your money will save you? No. That will not save. But they... For money they are doing all sorts of sinful activities. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad... [SB 5.5.4]. Why they are doing? Yad indriya-prita... Simply for sense gratification, that's all. Only benefit is sense gratification. Yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti.
Therefore Rsabhadeva, na sadhu manye: "Don't do this. Oh, it is not good." Why not good? Na sadhu manye yato atmano 'yam asann api. You have got this material body, suffering, although it is temporary, but you have got this. So don't do this. Don't do anything that you get another material body. That is perfection of life. That is Krsna consciousness.
Thank you very much. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.4 -- Bombay, February 19, 1974
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