Young Wise Men, Old Hypocrites

July 11, 1973

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Prabhupada: Well, hypocrisy and other things, they are subsidiary. If one is pure from the very beginning, then there is no chance of becoming hypocrite. Why he should be hypocrite? If he is open, clear, why one should become hypocrite? Hypocrisy, when there is sinful activity, then hypocrisy. If there is no sin, where is the possibility of hypocrisy? A sinful man may pose himself a religious man. That is hypocrisy. But if there is no sin, then where is hypocrisy?Father Tanner: What I didn't understand is how this is covered by your four pillars, the four...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: Which of these would cover lying?
Prabhupada: Lying?
Father Tanner: Yes, telling lies.
Prabhupada: That I have already explained.
Father Tanner: Yes. But which of those four pillars...?
Prabhupada: All of them. All of them. Just like one is indulging in intoxication. He may say that "I am very pure." But how one can become pure, he's addicted to intoxicants? So I heard from one of my disciples that there is a hospital in U.S.A., and five thousand priests are there for curing their intoxication habit. Do you know that?
Father Tanner: I didn't know that number, but I know that there are hospitals and sanatoriums...
Prabhupada: So if the priest is going to hospital for curing his intoxication habit, he's hypocrite.
Father Tanner: He would admit that,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...wouldn't he? I mean, the priest himself.
Prabhupada: How a priest can be intoxicants?
Father Tanner: He would say, wouldn't he, that was just his weakness.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Tanner: He would say it was his weakness.
Prabhupada: Weakness is hypocrisy. If you are weak, you cannot become priest. Because you are teacher, religious teacher. You should not take that post. That is hypocrisy.
Father Tanner: But perhaps this is the difference, or one of the differences between western and eastern civilization...
Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of eastern or western...
Father Tanner: But in the East, your wise man is nearly always an elderly man.
Prabhupada: Not always.
Father Tanner: Not always.
Prabhupada: Not always.
Father Tanner: But in the West, you know, your priest is generally made a priest in his early twenties. Then he has thrust upon him the role of the wise man, which he doesn't always seek.
Prabhupada: Just like these boys, they are very young, twenties, between twenty to thirty. So they are made here brahmacari, and some of them are sannyasi, but they are strictly following these principles. Because they are young men, there cannot be any concession that he can become intoxicants, he can indulge in meat-eating. No.
Father Tanner: But would you think of a young man as wise man? Isn't it normal that a young man is working his way towards wisdom?
Prabhupada: The wise man becomes by knowledge, not by age. Even an old man, if he has no knowledge, what is...? He is not wise man. Wise means one who has attained knowledge. He may be young, he may be old. It doesn't matter. Vidyatvam vayasa vina. In Sanskrit word, that one becomes elderly without being advanced in age. That means he knows the knowledge. Therefore he is elderly. An elderly person means advanced in knowledge, not by age.
Father Tanner: Hm. But, you see, knowledge and attainment aren't the same thing. You know, I may know that it is wrong to be an alcoholic, and maybe I am not actually, physically an alcoholic, but it doesn't mean to say that interiorally I have cleansed myself of all addiction. The fact that you are not drinking for a year doesn't mean to say that you have overcome the intoxicant urge if that is in you, although you know it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present.
Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality?
Prabhupada: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration.
Father Tanner: But what he is at present may be an accident.
Prabhupada: Why accident? Which is actually happening, why it is accident?
Father Tanner: Well, for instance, if you take a man shipwrecked on an island alone, he is not in any sense taking part in impure love, or illicit love. But it doesn't mean to say that he is free from all desire for illicit love.
Prabhupada: No. Nobody's free. But so long he acts nicely, he's nice.
Father Tanner: So it is the action, rather than the, no, the exterior rather than the interior.
Prabhupada: No, interior... Well, of course, everyone has got interior tendency, but by practicing actually, exteriorally, that interior also is reformed. It is, by external behavior, the interior behavior also becomes fixed up. By practice. Therefore there is regular class so that he may be purified internally and externally. Sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. Yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. If you constantly remember the Supreme Lord, so you become automatically purified, internally and externally. Because the Lord is absolute, so if we chant the Lord's holy name, the name is also Lord. He has no difference between His name and Himself.
Father Tanner: Well, you see, we make a difference between the law and the spirit of the law, or the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. And we can say a man can keep the letter of the law without in any way keeping the spirit of the law.
Prabhupada: No, that is materially difference. But spiritually...
Father Tanner: Spiritually, that is different.
Prabhupada: No. Spiritually, the Lord and His name, the Lord and His form, the Lord and His quality, They are all identical.
Devotee: No, but there's a little misunderstanding. Prabhupada is saying "Lord." Not...
Father Tanner: Oh, you're saying "Lord." I'm sorry. I was saying "law."
Prabhupada: No, no.
Devotee: Law, law, the command, law.
Prabhupada: Yes. Lord.
Father Tanner: Yes. You can have the letter of the law...
Prabhupada: No, I'm not speaking of law. I'm talking of Lord.
Father Tanner: Yes.
Prabhupada: So Lord and Lord's name, They're the same, identical. Just like we are chanting Hare Krsna. So this Krsna name and the Krsna person, identical. Because the Lord is absolute. In the material world, the world of duality, the name is not the substance. If you require water, simply by chanting "Water, water," your thirst will not be quenched. You require the substance water. But in the spiritual world, the Lord and His name, the same thing. If you chant the Lord's name, Krsna, or any name of Lord, that is identical with the Lord. Therefore by chanting the holy name of the Lord, you are associating with the Lord. And as soon as you associate with the Lord, you become purified. Because Lord is all-pure. Just like if you associate with fire, you become warm. Similarly, if you constantly associate with the Lord, you remain purified. Therefore our principle is they are always chanting... Just like we are... I am chanting also. (Holds up beads) Or reading some book. Or talking with you about Krsna. So we are always connected with Krsna, or God. In all our activities... The whole house, you'll see, they are engaged in some sort of work which has connection with Krsna. There is no other work. So nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe. Anything attached with God, that is also godly.
Father Tanner: You say...
Mrs. Wells: I can see what Father Tanner means about the spiritual man on the outside not necessarily being pure on the inside.
Prabhupada: No, he's not spiritual man. He's a hypocrite. He must be inside and outside correct. If one is outside correct, inside wrong, he's not spiritual man. We don't accept him.
Mrs. Wells: But you begin with the outside.
Prabhupada: No. Inside and outside, both.
Mrs. Wells: But your principles pertain to the outside man.
Prabhupada: Outside man?
Mrs. Wells: The actions...
Guest (1) (British young man): You said that the four pillars that you follow are outward manifestations. They belong to a material person.
Prabhupada: Outward manifestation?
Guest 1: Hm.
Prabhupada: So outward manifestation... Just like outwardly, iron rod, it is iron. Iron. Do you follow me?
Mrs. Wells: Yes, iron.
Prabhupada: But you put the iron in the fire...
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Prabhupada: So the iron becomes warm, warmer, and then at last, it becomes red-hot. When the iron is red-hot, it is no longer iron. It is fire. If you touch anywhere, it will burn. Although apparently it is iron rod, but because it has become red-hot, it is fire. Similarly, if you constantly keep in spiritual activities, your outward body, although it is iron and matter, it becomes spiritualized. Try to understand this example. Iron rod put into the fire, when it is red-hot, it is no longer iron rod. It is fire. Similarly this body, although material, if you constantly keep in touch with spiritual activities, then it is no longer material. It is spiritual. The body's also spiritual.
Mrs. Wells: And how long do you think this takes to...
Prabhupada: So long you keep in spiritual activities.
Mrs. Wells: For a young man or a young woman, beginning?
Prabhupada: Well, I say that there is every chance of falling down. That is up to you to keep fit. Otherwise there is chance of falling down. But even he falls down, whatever he has done, that is permanent.
Father Tanner: But, you see, in your example, if you take your iron...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...which is hot...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...once it's been immersed into the, you know, fire and is hot, then it must always burn, whatever you touch.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore I say...
Father Tanner: It's become... If you take your person, your spiritual man, or the person who's trying to become a spiritual man, and he could have done his best to make his contact with the spirit, he doesn't always after that be spiritual. You know. your iron has to burn. He hasn't got to be spiritual.
Prabhupada: No, no. As the... If you keep the iron always hot, it is fire. Is it not? Similarly, if you always keep yourself within the spiritual activities, then you are spirit.
Father Tanner: You see, I don't think that the spiritual activities which are external forms can really...
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: ...of themselves change the internal man.
Prabhupada: Yes, it changes.
Father Tanner: Now, I...
Prabhupada: Actually, You can see here.
Father Tanner: You can have a person who goes to church every Sunday, who says his prayers...
Prabhupada: No, our program is not like that, we go after seven days. We are twenty-four hours engaged.
Father Tanner: Yes, yes. But all I'm saying is you can have this, and they are not spiritual.
Prabhupada: No, why not spiritual?
Father Tanner: And, you know, I don't know your disciples...
Prabhupada: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Yes.
Father Tanner: I don't know your disciples, but it is possible that some of them, even with twenty-four hour a day, you know, exercises...
Prabhupada: Yes, our program is like that.
Father Tanner: ...fail to become spiritual.
Prabhupada: Now, our program here is like that. We have got Deities, six times arati. In preparation for that, cleansing the temple room, washing the dishes of the Deity, cooking for the Deity, arranging for the other things... So they are always thinking of Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. This is Krsna consciousness. Just like we have got so many books. So they are reading books of Krsna. This is also Krsna consciousness. So... Or they are going to sankirtana party. That is also Krsna consciousness. So it is a question of practice and practical understanding. A theoretically one cannot understand. But we have got twenty-four hours engagement for these boys. Not a single moment lost. In this way we train them.
Father Tanner: You see, I really don't know... I don't deny that, but I don't see the difference externally between that and brainwashing.
Prabhupada: That, that, that, that... Suppose you are washing the floor of the temple. It is not external. Because there is Krsna consciousness. He's washing the floor or washing the dishes for Krsna. So the consciousness is there. So actually, our life is consciousness. If your full consciousness is only for God, then you remain always godly. There is no doubt about it. If you make division, "so much for worldly and so much for godly," then there is difference. But if you dovetail everything towards the service of the Lord, then anything you do, that is godly.
Father Tanner: Would you think it is possible to hate the Deity?
Prabhupada: Hate?
Father Tanner: Hate the Deity?
Prabhupada: Why?
Father Tanner: Is it possible?
Prabhupada: No, a devotee cannot hate the Deity. How he... Then how he can serve?
Father Tanner: Because you can see the Deity as too strong, repressive, taking away your freedom, your own wishes...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ... and so you can come to hate the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritualism means to sacrifice your freedom. That is spiritualism. You have no more freedom. You are simply engaged for God's service. That is spiritualism.
Father Tanner: Why, why, why were we created free?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Tanner: Why were we created?
Prabhupada: You are not free. You are thinking so-called free. You are not free. You are under the stringent laws of nature. You are not free. You are thinking foolishly that you are free.
Father Tanner: But if I am not free...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...then I can't give up my freedom for religion.
Prabhupada: You are free to some extent, because you are part and parcel of God. God is completely free. So because you are part and parcel of God, therefore you have got that minute freedom. That minute freedom, when you misuse for other purposes, then you fall down. But if you use that freedom for the service of the Lord... You have got freedom. You may serve the Lord, you may not serve. That is your freedom. But if you serve the Lord, then you become happy. If you do not serve the Lord, then you become unhappy.
Father Tanner: If I serve the Lord, do I lose that little bit of freedom?
Prabhupada: Because you are meant for that purpose.
Father Tanner: Do I lose that little bit of freedom?
Prabhupada: No, that is real freedom. Just like this, my finger, is part and parcel of my body. So long the finger serves the body, it is healthy. If it is painful, it cannot serve, then it is unhealthy. Similarly, a living entity, when he cannot serve God, that is his material condition, or unhealthy condition. When he serves God, that is his natural condition. Because he's part and parcel of God.
Father Tanner: Where did we lose the contact with God?
Prabhupada: When you misused your freedom. You have got little freedom.
Father Tanner: But at what point did I... No. Or, a child lose its contact with its Creator?
Prabhupada: It is said... Suppose I am serving my master. I can think of, "Oh, why shall I serve him? I shall become independent." That is my freedom, little freedom. So I cannot become independent. That is not my healthy stage. Just like... Take for example, a dog. A dog is healthy when he has got a good master. And if he hasn't got a good master, he's a street dog, neglected. He's not healthy. Similarly our position is like that, that we must be dependent on God. Therefore in your Christian Bible also you go for your bread: "God, give us our daily bread." So you are dependent. So it is better to remain dependent on God than to use your so-called little freedom.
Father Tanner: But your dog can be healthy in two ways, can't he? The dog can be healthy... ,
Prabhupada: No, no, this is an example.
Father Tanner: ...if he has a good master, and he can be healthy if he has no master.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: If your dog is just running free in its natural state, he is a healthy animal, but...
Prabhupada: No, a dog is not healthy. I am giving that particular example. Then he's a street dog. A street dog has no position. He's not healthy. I am giving a crude example, that a dog's posit... Similarly, we are all dependent on God. That is in your Bible also.
Father Tanner: Oh, yes, I accept.
Prabhupada: So to remain dependent on God is our healthy state. As soon as we declare independent of God, that is our unhealthy state. This is our philosophy. And your philosophy also. To remain there. That is the Vedic injunction, that nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam, eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). What is the difference between God and ourself? God is also a living entity like us, but He's the chief living entity. He's maintaining all others. Therefore we have to ask God, "Give us our daily bread." He's the maintainer; we are maintained. Just like in a family, the father is the maintainer, and the mother and the children and the servants, they are maintained, similarly the whole universe, whole creation, it is maintained by God, and we living entities, within this universe or within this creation, we are maintained. So as we are maintained, it is better to remain dependent on God than to declare our freedom.
Father Tanner: But you can in this world, within the limits of time and space,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...be a healthy person without admitting your dependence on God.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are depending. We have no business.
Father Tanner: You can be healthy and live...
Prabhupada: Now, healthy, what do you mean by healthy?
Father Tanner: Well, you know, you were saying it's what a man does that makes him that if he is pure here and now, then, and it's not his inside. It's his outside...
Prabhupada: Our description of healthy life, healthy life is to become God conscious. That is healthy life. Otherwise do you think that an animal like elephant, very strong, does it mean that it is healthy? No.
Father Tanner: No, I would say an elephant can be healthy, my body can be healthy.
Prabhupada: Well, that is temporary. Everyone is subjected to death. So you may be very strong, healthy, but you cannot avoid death.
Father Tanner: No, but then, then...
Prabhupada: So, so therefore, ultimately, you become so-called healthy or not healthy, you'll die. That is the fact. So we do not want that kind of healthy life. Our proposition is that we go back to home back to Godhead and remain with God, eternally enjoying blissful life. This is our healthy life.
Father Tanner: I, I accept these principles, but, you know, the words, I would say you could be healthy, but, you know, when you go to God at the end, this isn't on your physical healthiness.
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: This is on your spiritual self.
Prabhupada: When you go to God, you go in your spiritual body.
Father Tanner: Yes.
Prabhupada: Spiritual body. So...
Father Tanner: But you can be physically healthy...
Prabhupada: Spiritually, when you get your spiritual body, there is no such material inconveniences. The material inconveniences means so long you have got this material body, you are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. When you revive your spiritual body, these four things are not with you. No more birth, no more death, no more disease, no more old age. This is the difference between spiritual life and material life.
Father Tanner: Yes, I mean, this, I think, anyone who's in any sense spiritual or religious or ethical would admit because the spiritual body has no parts. So it cannot start to be or cease to be and cannot change within his own entity.
Prabhupada: No, the spiritual body is there already. Just like you have got your body. The coat is made according to your body. You existed first. Your coat was made later on. Similarly, spiritually, we exist eternally. Now, according to our different types of activities, we get a body, material body. There are eight million, four hundred thousand different forms of bodies. So the spirit soul is transmigrating according to his desire and work to different types of body. This is called transmigration of the soul. ...
Father Tanner: You would hold that the spirit is eternal...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...in the sense that in the beginning all spirits were contained within the Deity,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...and at the end all spirits will refind themselves in the Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: What...? Would you ever admit that a spirit could fail after his last chance...?
Prabhupada: That misuse of little independence. That I have already told. He has got little independence. So so long he's engaged in the service of the Lord, he remains in a spiritual body along with the Lord.
Father Tanner: No, I'm saying is it possible for any spirit not ultimately, after his various transmigrations through bodies, is it possible for any spirit never to regain contact with the Lord?
Prabhupada: Yes. If he comes in contact with a servant of God, then he revives his old consciousness, original consciousness.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what he was saying was is it possible for a spirit soul never to regain the state of God consciousness.
Prabhupada: No, why never? He has got chance. When he comes in contact with a servant of the Lord, he revives his Krsna consciousness. Then he begins his spiritual life. So how can you say...?
Father Tanner: But is it possible... You know, the world one day will end, and physical bodies will end...
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible.
Father Tanner: The world will not end?
Prabhupada: World will end. Yes.
Father Tanner: Yes. Now, I'm saying, when this time comes when all physical things end, will any of the spirits fail to reunite with the Godhead?
Prabhupada: Now, when, as soon as he likes to reunite. That is... That depends on his liking and not liking.
Father Tanner: Hm. But would you admit that...
Prabhupada: There is no... You are talking of mechanically. But I am talking of that little independence. As soon as the living entity desires to unite with the Supreme Lord, he can become.
Father Tanner: Yes, but will it ever...
Prabhupada: And so long he does not desire, he'll have to continue this material existence. So that depends on him.
Father Tanner: And could that go on and on forever, his not desiring?
Prabhupada: Well, how can I say? You have got independence of desire and not to desire. That depends on you. If you never desire, then you continue, perpetually, material life. But there is chance.
Father Tanner: Now, taking that person, when material things cease, what happens to him?
Prabhupada: Material things, material and spiritual, the living entities, they are spiritual, and the material elements, earth, water, fire, they are also material energy. There are two kinds of energies. Why two kinds? Three kinds of energies. Just like fire has got two kinds of energies, heat and light, similarly, God has got multi-energies. All those multi-energies have been divided into three. One is called internal, another is called external, and the third is called marginal. So this material world is manifestation of the external and marginal energy. So when the material world ceases to exist or it is dissolved, annihilated, so energy goes back to God. It goes back. Again, when there is creation, the same energy creates. The marginal energy, by the marginal energy and external energy. This is going on. Just like day and night, it is going on. At daytime people are busy. This is creation. At night everyone is sleeping. Similarly, when there is creation, these activities are going on. When there is no creation, it is night, everyone is sleeping.
Father Tanner: Is there a spirit opposed to the divine spirit?
Prabhupada: Spirit opp...?
Father Tanner: Opposed. Taking that the, you know, that God is good,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: ...is there another spirit that is not good?
Prabhupada: No, we are all another spirit. Just like the father and the son. The father is also a spirit. The son is also another spirit.
Father Tanner: Can there be opposition in the spirit world?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Tanner: Conflict in the spirit world?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes. Just like father has got ten sons. Some of them are opposition to the father. And some of them are very obedient.
Father Tanner: But the... I'm not saying of the spirit in man. I'm saying of spirits in themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spirit in themselves, they are not opposition.
Father Tanner: Can they be in opposition?
Prabhupada: No. When they are in opposition, they have to accept this material body. Just like the citizens in the prison house, it means they are all in opposition to the laws of the state, similarly, anyone who is in this material world, they are in opposition to the supreme will of the Lord. Therefore they are put into this material world in varieties of life. So they can stop that opposition and again go back to home, back to Godhead.
Father Tanner: You'd like to go, would you?
Mrs. Wells: Yes.
Father Tanner: I'm sorry. Mrs. Wells has to go, sir. And you look very tired.
Prabhupada: No, I am not tired. I am a little old.
Mrs. Wells: We have the devil within us.
Prabhupada: Give them prasadam.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Prabhupada: So our movement is we are training people to revive their original God consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead.
Father Tanner: Can I eat this up, then?
Prabhupada: Yes, take.
Father Tanner: Thank you.
Mrs. Wells: Is it fattening?
Devotee: No.
Father Tanner: No? Is it...?
Srutakirti: She asked if it was fattening.
Mrs. Wells: (laughing) A joke. No.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Srutakirti: She asked if it was fattening.
Prabhupada: Fattening?
Srutakirti: Would make her heavy.
Prabhupada: No.
Srutakirti: Gain weight.
Prabhupada: You have seen all our books.
Father Tanner: I have got several of your books.
Prabhupada: I see. Thank you. So we are approaching people to become God conscious. That's all. (Aside:) Get the light on. And in the Bhagavata it is stated, sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religion which teaches people how to love God. That is first-class religion. It doesn't matter whether it is Hindu religion or Christian religion or Mohammedan religion, if it teaches the followers how to love God, then it is first-class.
Father Tanner: I think I'm almost only teaching them to love one another.
Prabhupada: Yes. No. One another, that is going on in so many ways. You see? That has never become successful. Neither it will become successful. That is a fact. Because here the atmosphere is so surcharged with material ideas that even if I want to love you, you may not like it. That is the position here. So you cannot be successful to teach people to love one another. That will never be successful. That has never been successful. But if you can teach people how to love God...
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them how to love themselves?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mrs. Wells: How about teaching them to love themselves.
Prabhupada: Everyone is loving themselves. That is...
Mrs. Wells: Do you think so?
Prabhupada: That does not require teaching. How to eat... You love your body, therefore you eat.
Mrs. Wells: I didn't mean that sort of love.
Prabhupada: Then what kind of love?
Mrs. Wells: Loving your own being for what God gave you. Loving yourself as you are, accepting yourself. That's very difficult, you know.
Prabhupada: I do not follow. What is that, they are...
Father Tanner: Loving your own personality.
Prabhupada: Loving your personality... First of all you know what you are, what is your personality.
Father Tanner: But...
Prabhupada: If you do not know what you are, then how you can love yourself?
Mrs. Wells: This is the problem.
Prabhupada: Yes. And what you are. If I ask you what you are, can you answer?
Mrs. Wells: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What kind of love...?
Father Tanner: But I would say that, that I am so many...
Prabhupada: But if you do not know what you are...
Father Tanner: No, no. I'm saying I do know.
Prabhupada: If you know, then tell me what you are.
Father Tanner: So many things it would take a long time to say.
Prabhupada: Why long time? You can speak in short shell, nutshell, that "I am this."
Father Tanner: No, no. Not... You know, in some ways...
Prabhupada: We can say. We can say.
Father Tanner: In some ways, I am very intolerant. In some way, I am very tolerant.
Prabhupada: That, that is another thing. First of all I must know what is my identity.
Father Tanner: But my identity is made up of so many... It's not one thing.
Prabhupada: But that one... First of all one. Just like we say that "My identity is that I am eternal servant of God." This is my identity.
Father Tanner: Well, this is the inner being, but then it finds expression in me...
Prabhupada: Now, as servant of God, I may have many activities. But my identity is that I am eternal servant of God. This is our identity. So if I love myself, because I am eternal servant of God, therefore, if I actually I love myself, I must always engage myself in the service of the Lord. This is love.
Father Tanner: But there must, in your self, there must be times when you're angry, times when you're...
Prabhupada: I can become angry for God.
Father Tanner: Times when you're proud, times when you're humble.
Prabhupada: For God's sake... Suppose you are serving some master. For the master's satisfaction, you sometimes become angry.
Father Tanner: Hm, but I think what Susan was saying is that our personality...
Prabhupada: No, no. I'm... First of all, if you keep your identity fixed-up, even if you become angry, it is not bad.
Father Tanner: No. But you can become it... what, you know, we are saying is...
Prabhupada: Suppose just like I tell you that a dog is your servant. It is standing on the door. Some thief is coming. If the dog becomes angry, "Baw! Gaw! Gow!" so that, to become angry is not bad for the dog...
Father Tanner: No.
Prabhupada: ...because he's serving the master. So similarly, if you are fixed-up in your business as servant of the Lord, so even if you become angry for Lord's service, that is not bad.
Father Tanner: But you..., the dog might bite his master.
Prabhupada: No.
Father Tanner: Yes, he can.
Prabhupada: I don't think a... Anyway, that is dog. I... That's a crude example. But a spirit soul, when he's fixed-up in the service of the Lord, he does not bite his master. (laughter) He does not... He only serves. So we must know, if I actually love myself, first of all I know what I am. If I know, then I can properly love myself. If I do not know what I am if I think that "I am this body," oh, this conception the dog has also. He's also thinking, "I am this body." To keep this body in fitness, to eat nicely, to sleep nicely, this consciousness is there in cats and dogs. So therefore, as spirit soul, as human being, first of all you know that "Whether I am this body or something else?"
Father Tanner: But you know what you are and what you become. I hate what I am. I want to become something different.
Prabhupada: No, that is your freedom. You can do.
Father Tanner: Now, this is the same as a material man saying "I want to become spiritual or God conscious or what have you." But, you know, because I want to become this, it doesn't mean that I am this. Because I want to become God's servant, it doesn't mean that I am God's servant.
Prabhupada: No, you don't, you do not want, you want or not want, that is not the question. First of all you must know what is your real identity. You do not want and do want, that independence you have got always. That is a different thing. But first of all you must know what is your identity. Your identity is... That I have already explained. The... You are part and parcel of God. So far we understand, our philosophy is... From the Bhagavad-gita. Mamaivamsah. The whole thing is one unity, unit, and everything is part and parcel of God, His energy. So we, the marginal energy, living entities, we are also part and parcel of God. As part and parcel of God, what is my duty? Just like this finger. There is itching. Immediately it comes, serves. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Father Tanner and other guests -- July 11, 1973, London

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You Enjoy and Forget Goal

June 24, 1976

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Prabhupada: Huh?Kuladri: Simple living.
Prabhupada: No, here is the charge. Now what is your answer? In this life you are living very comfortably, next life if I'm going to be a dog, then this is the charge. Now how this class of men will answer it? Can he deny that he's not going to be a dog?
Kirtanananda: He says he doesn't believe it.
Prabhupada: You believe or not believe. Just like this child, it is boy, he does not know anything. But I know, his mother knows, his father knows that he's going to be young man. If he says, "No, I am not going to be young man," that is childish. That is childish. But the father, mother, friends know that the boy is going to grow a young man, so he should be educated and he should be properly situated. That is the guardian's business. He doesn't know. He doesn't know. So that he doesn't know, that does not mean it is fact. So similarly, if rascals say, "I don't believe it," that's not a fact. He is a rascal, mad, he may say so, but that is not the fact. Karanam guna-sangasya. Real fact is that he'll have to accept a body according to the quality of development.
Kirtanananda: But what if they say that "Actually this life of growing the castor seed is very difficult, farming is very difficult. It is easier to go to the factory for eight hours, and then I come home with my money and I enjoy."
Prabhupada: No, you enjoy, but by enjoying, if you forget your real business, is that intelligent? Your real business is that you have got this human form of body to improve your next life. You are going to have a next life. Suppose you are going to be a dog. Is that success? So you must know the science that instead of becoming dog, how shall you become God. That is intelligence.
Kirtanananda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to dig oil?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: Why is it any better to grow castor seed than to...
Prabhupada: No, you require lamp. So you finish that lamping business as simply as possible. In the balance time you save you improve your self-realization. That is the life. Just like this child, he wants to play. He does not go to school, does not take an education, and he improves type of toys, toys, he's engaged in improved type of football playing, and... Then is that very good intelligence?
Kirtanananda: But nobody works longer hours than the farmer.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kirtanananda: No one works harder than the farmer. The farmer has to work very hard.
Prabhupada: No, our point is that if you think that electricity improvement is better than farming, we have no objection. But if you forget your real business, is that intelligent?
Kirtanananda: No, of course not.
Prabhupada: That is our proposal. Our real business is how to become Krsna conscious. So simply for improving the condition of life, the necessities of life, if I forget my real business, is that intelligence? Therefore it is said duskrtinah. Krti means merit. But merit is being utilized for sinful activities.
Take for example the meat-eaters. When man was... The uncivilized man is still there. In the uncivilized way they are living in the jungle. They require to eat something. So they stone over an animal going, and the animal dies, and then they eat. Now instead of killing the animal by stoning, if you have discovered scientific machine in the slaughterhouse to kill the animal, is that improvement? If you think this is advancement, "Now we have discovered very technical machine. Instead of stoning one animal killing, it takes so much time, hundreds and thousands of animals you can kill in one hour," do you think that is improvement? That is going on. They think this is improvement. When we were uncivilized, we were stoning some animal and killing and eating, now we are, business is the same -- animal killing and eating. But we have improved the machine how to kill. This is going on. This is going on as advancement of civilization. Hmm? What is your answer? Is that advancement of civilization?
Now you are civilized, instead of killing the animal, you just take milk from it without killing and make so many nice preparations, and that is civilization. But killing is sinful. You have no right to kill any animal, even an ant. Because you cannot give life to anyone. It is nature's law, God's law. So infringement on the laws of nature or God, it is sinful activities. So you are utilizing your merit for this sinful activity. Therefore it is called duskrtinah. Merit is there, but it is utilized for sinful activities. That is defect of the modern civilization.
Kuladri: Srila Prabhupada, I remember once you said...
Prabhupada: These questions that "I believe," "I don't believe," you are rascal, what is the meaning of your believe or not believing? You are, after all, a rascal. Just like a child will say something, "I don't believe." The mother will say "You are rascal, you must go to your room." So rascals believe or not believe, what is the meaning? Mudha. It is the law of nature. Tatha dehantara-praptih. [From Bg. 2.13: "As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change."]The example is given that this boy will change his body. Dehantara-praptir ["transference of the body"]. He'll become a young boy, young man. This body will not remain. What is the difficulty to understand? Yes, this body will not remain. While he came out of the womb of the mother, that was another body. But these rascals, they do not understand it. It is very difficult to deal with the rascals, that's a fact, but... Whatever they are doing is all rascaldom, that's all. And forgetting their real business. So your son, does he believe that he's going to be a young man? You believe? (laughs) Huh? What is your...
Kulasekhara: I remember once when we were staying at John Lennon's estate, you said to me...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Kulasekhara: At John Lennon's estate, remember? In London. You said to me, the tractor, you said, this is the cause of all the trouble. That it took all the work from the young men and they went to the city and became entangled in the sense gratification in the cities. So I've noticed in the city there's much more passion, but living in the country is simpler...The country is more peaceful. It's easier to think of spiritual life.
Prabhupada: Yes. Less disease. Less brain-taxing. Everything is less. So balance time, utilize for Krsna consciousness. And if you have got temple, it is very happy life. Just for your food work little, and balance time engage yourself in Krsna consciousness. This is ideal life. Just see minute fibers on the flower. Can anyone manufacture this? So small fibers. And how brilliant it is. If you study only one flower, you become God conscious. There is a machine which we call nature. From that machine, everything is coming. But how machine is perfect? And who has discovered this machine?
Kulasekhara: In London you said they do not know that the butterflies and flowers are painted, but Krsna paints them with thought.
Prabhupada: Yes. How you can expect without painting it has come so beautiful? This is foolishness, "nature" -- what is this nature? Everything is being done by the machine of Krsna. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8: "...No one is greater than Him or equal to Him..." [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]] Anyway, improve this mode of life. Live in open place, produce your food grains, produce your milk, save time, chant Hare Krsna. Plain living, high thinking, ideal life. Artificial necessities of life do increase your so-called comforts, but if you forget your real business, that is suicidal. We want to stop this suicidal policy. We don't want to stop the modern advancement of technology, although the so-called advancement technology is suicidal. But we don't talk of this. (laughter) Caitanya Mahaprabhu has therefore given a simple formula -- chant Hare Krsna. Even in your technological factories, you can chant. What is the wrong there? You go on pulling on with your machine and chant, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna.
Kirtanananda: They know that if people take up the chanting, gradually they will give up this technology.
Prabhupada: That is, of course.
Kirtanananda: You are actually putting the seeds of their destruction.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, what is destruction? It is, rather, construction. (laughter) He'll live. He'll live forever. This is destruction....So everyone is getting milk? How much?
Kirtanananda: As much as they want.
Prabhupada: As much as they want, then jaundice. (laughter) Too much is not good. They may take minimum half pound per head.
Kirtanananda: Minimum.
Prabhupada: Minimum. And maximum one pound. Not more than that. But "Because there is enough, let us eat," no. That is not good. But children must get at least one pound, milk. If they drink more milk they become stout and strong.
Kirtanananda: They get more than one pound. They get at least two pounds.
Prabhupada: Then their life is built up strong, and nice brain to under stand. Do they not see the benefit of the society, that we are not killing children, we are maintaining them with sufficient milk. Is it not better civilization? And they are, for fear of overpopulation, they are killing. The mother is killing the child. Is that civilization?...
So improve this farming very nicely. So the cows, they should be given as much as possible pasturing. If you simply drink little milk, and little vegetables, that will supply all vitamins. You do not require to take vitamin pills. No, there is no need. It has got all the vitamins. That is admitted. Vitamin A, D, in milk, they say also. And fruits, vitamin C. In this way, in fruits, vegetables, grains, milk, all vitamins are there.
Kulasekhara: Srila Prabhupada, if you take milk in other forms, like if you eat cheese, if you take curd or cheese, is it the same as drinking milk?
Prabhupada: Yes. Any milk preparation. And if you have got enough milk, then keep it as ghee and open restaurant in the city. Give them nice samosa, kachori. So in exchange you get money, you require little money, so that money will help you. Actually, in India, before these British, the poorer class of men, they were simply keeping, say, a dozen of cows, and that was their means of livelihood, that's all. From the milk they'll eat the, that, little milk, then yogurt, then..., what is called? It is another milk.
Devotees: Casein? Curd? Cheese?
Visakha: Buttermilk
Prabhupada: Buttermilk, yes, and in this way after drinking and eating so many things, whatever balance is there, churn it and then get ghee, and that ghee is kept in stock. On the market day, they go to the city and sell it. You'll find in Vrndavana, so many cultivators, they have brought ghee. So the inhabitants of the city, town, they require ghee, they purchase, and with that money they get some necessities, just like some oil or some spices, salt, like this, which is not available. In this way...
Hari-sauri: How is it they are so keen on buffalo milk in India?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Hari-sauri: The Indians, they seem to prefer buffalo milk to cow milk.
Prabhupada: No, cow milk is not available, therefore buffalo milk contains more fat. But milk means cow's milk. What is the daily milk?
Kirtanananda: About a thousand pounds.
Prabhupada: Those who are meat-eaters, why don't you inform them, when a cow dies, that "You can take it."
Kirtanananda: That would be illegal.
Prabhupada: Why? Legal, illegal, that is their whim.
Kirtanananda: But that will get us in trouble.
Prabhupada: No, no. That is, they can give us, they are in power, they can do that, but legally...
Kirtanananda: Yes, you are right. If they want to eat, let them take the dead cow.
Prabhupada: They take it. Free, they get without any price. They get the skin, they get flesh, let them eat. We are not going to charge for the... You take it. Why maintain slaughterhouse? Take this.
Kirtanananda: They even object if you let the animals, wild animals eat the dead cow.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Kirtanananda: They even object if you let the wild animals eat. They want it buried.
Prabhupada: Oh, jackals or fox, if they come, they don't like it.
Kirtanananda: The jackals like it.
Prabhupada: No, jackals like it, (laughter) but government...
Kirtanananda: Government doesn't like it.
Prabhupada: Government will like when the jackal takes your animal. They will eat it, they will not attack somebody else, because if they are not hungry, they don't attack. Even tiger or any ferocious animal, if they are satisfied in hunger, they don't attack. In the jungle, tiger and other animals, they live together. When they are hungry, they attack. So at least you can advertise that here is a cow, available free. Take it, those who are meat-eaters. Take free without any price.
Pusta Krsna: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Pusta Krsna: Most meat-eaters would consider it disgusting to have to cut cow open.
Prabhupada: Disgusting?
Pusta Krsna: Yes. If they had to do it themselves they would consider it abominable.
Prabhupada: No, some of them can do it, make business. As there are butchers, as they are selling meat, they can take it, they'll make more profit. From slaughterhouse, if they purchase, they have to pay, but here they get free. The hotel man, they can get free. The tannery expert, he'll get this skin free. I have seen they are eating the lobster, it is so decomposed it has become exactly like puss and they are eating. That argument is not valid.
Kirtanananda: They cannot even eat the animal when it is fresh. They never eat beef fresh. It must age for at least three weeks, otherwise it is not tasty. (laughter)
Hari-sauri: I remember once there was one man, he was advertising himself, he was touring from one country to another, and he was advertising himself as being an expert meat-eater. And he said, one of his statements was you couldn't eat a beefsteak until it had little white spots all over it, then it was ready to eat.
Prabhupada: White spot means decomposed. Fungus. Nana yoni brahmana kare kadarya bhaksana kari' tara janma adho pate. [From Narottama dasa Thakura, Prema-bhakti-candrika: "Fruitive activities and mental specula tion are simply cups of poison. Whoever drinks of them thinking them to be nectar, must struggle very hard life after life, in different types of bodies. Such a person eats all kinds of nonsense and becomes condemned by his activities of so-called sense enjoyment."]
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, we can point out all the defects in their system but then they say "But there is no proof that such a perfect society has ever existed as you speak of. We have no evidence that such a perfect society exists."
Prabhupada: You can see, come and see with us. Live in our New Vrindaban, you'll see.
Dhrstadyumna: Then they say, "Well, that is all right for you, but that is not practical for everyone."
Kirtanananda: Why not? We are human beings, and you are human being.
Prabhupada: So what is not practical for you, our system, your system is also not practical for us. We cannot live in this way. Anyway, if you can maintain a perfect community of plain living, high thinking, that is sufficient...
But we don't say that you starve, you unnecessarily give trouble to your body. No. Eat nicely, but simply, and save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That is our program. Nanda Maharaja was a village man. Krsna was village boy. Krsna could live in New Delhi, but He did not like that. He lived in Vrndavana, a village. But one difficulty is that it is not plain land. Little troublesome, but not very much troublesome. So is there any difficulty of not being a plain land?
Kirtanananda: It makes farming more difficult on the hill. It takes more time, more work.
Prabhupada: Hard work.
Kirtanananda: That is good.
Prabhupada: For cows there is no difficulty.
Kirtanananda: No.
Prabhupada: In India, they call Paharhi when they are accustomed to hard work. Those who live on the Himalayan side, they have to work little hard, therefore they are Paharhi. You have accepted other's children also?
Kirtanananda: Yes. Well, especially girls who have no husbands, there are quite a few here.
Prabhupada: Anyway, you are so kind you don't refuse anybody. That is..., who is so kind unless one is a Vaisnava? Nobody is kind. Krpa-sindhubhya eva ca. Krpa-sindhu, "ocean of mercy," that is Vaisnava. Never mind what you are, come here, stay, drink milk, chant Hare Krsna.
Kirtanananda: The children are doing very nicely.
Prabhupada: Yes?
Kirtanananda: And they will be our future community.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Kirtanananda: Practically it is impossible to teach these older boys how to use bulls and how to... It is very difficult, they cannot do it. But I think if we train the children.
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Himself did it. He was king's son, Nanda Maharaja. In the childhood, He was taking care of the calves, and when He was grown up, little, He was taking care of the cows. Krsna personally showed it. His father could have avoided, "No, no, You don't go. The servants will go." No. "You also go." Krsna-Balarama, both. Balarama has got the plow, tilling ground, and Krsna has got the flute to enchant the cows. Krsna-Balarama. They were not sitting idly, although Nanda Maharaja could keep Them without any work. No. They worked. From the beginning of childhood. They would come in the evening and mother would take care of bathing Them, changing dress, and then giving nice food, and after taking food They would go to rest. Whole day They worked. Krsna never taught that you sit idly. No. Personally, He did not do so, neither He taught anyone. In the Bhagavad-gita [Bg. 3.8: see below] you'll find.
niyatam kuru karma tvam
karma jyayo hy akarmanah
sarira-yatrapi ca te
na prasiddhyed akarmanah
Find out this.
Hari-sauri: What was that again, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Niyatah. You should read Bhagavad-gita so thoroughly for everything. That is good lawyer. Good lawyer means in the court, immediately give reference to the judge, "My Lordship, such and such law, under section...this is there." He's a good lawyer. Good lawyer means he immediately gives reference to the section on which he's talking. Immediately judgement is there. If there is previous authority and it is recorded in the lawbook, then he doesn't require to argue anymore, the evidence is there. Even in other court, if some judgement is there, they'll be accepted. This is the law. So a good lawyer means he gives references from different courts, the judgement makes easier. Instead of proceeding for a long time, he gives reference -- "Here is the judgement, you see," and immediately...
Dhrstadyumna:
niyatah kuru karma tvam
karma jyayo hy akarmanah
sarira-yatrapi ca te
na prasiddhyed akarmanah
"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work." [Bg. 3.8]
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna consciousness does not mean to keep a set of men lazy, who cannot work. That is not Krsna consciousness. Everyone must work to his capacity. Prescribed duties. They accuse us that we are escaping...We do not escape. We are always busy...
Dhrstadyumna: Purport:"There are many pseudo meditators who misrepresent themselves as belonging to high parentage, and great professional men who falsely pose that they have sacrificed everything for the sake of advancement in spiritual life. Lord Krsna did not want Arjuna to become a pretender, but that he perform his prescribed duties as set forth for ksatriyas. Arjuna was a householder and a military general, and therefore it was better for him to remain as such and perform his religious duties as prescribed for the householder ksatriya. Such activities gradually cleanse the heart of a mundane man and free him from material contamination. So-called renunciation for the purpose of maintenance is never approved by the Lord, nor by any religious scripture. After all, one has to maintain one's body and soul together by some work. Work should not be given up capriciously, without purification of materialistic propensities. Anyone who is in the material world is certainly possessed of the impure propensity for lording it over material nature, or, in other words, for sense gratification. Such polluted propensities have to be cleared. Without doing so, through prescribed duties, one should never attempt to become a so-called transcendentalist, renouncing work and living at the cost of others."
Prabhupada: That is not the right way. Krsna never said to Arjuna that "You haven't got to fight. You sit down, I shall do everything." He never said that. "You have to fight." Nimitta-matram bhava savyasacin. "And the result is already created by Me, but you have to make a manifestation of fighting." Just like our Krsna consciousness movement. Within eight or ten years we have developed so much. Is it humanly possible? It is Krsna's plan. But Krsna says that "You go and preach. Take the credit." Yes. It is His plan. Actually everything is done by Krsna. He gives the credit to His devotee, that's all. You know the history of the Detroit temple (laughs)?
Kirtanananda: A little bit, not too much.
Prabhupada: Detroit temple, it was, that building was constructed at a cost of two million dollars, say some fifty years, sixty years ago. And we purchased it at three hundred thousand dollars. So when they said that there is a nice house, so I told "Let me go immediately." So I went there and talked with the proprietor, so I liked it very much. It is a wonderful palace. So he asked $350,000. So I talked with him and asked some concession. Then I last bid again, "I'll give you cash, three hundred thousand." So he said "Yes, I accept." There was no money. (laughter) So the Bombay purchase, you know, it was simply speculation. So Krsna is giving us. For a karmi, it is not possible, but Krsna gives us all facilities. You have been in that palace, Detroit?...They have kept five peacocks.
Hari-sauri: Seven.
Prabhupada: Seven. They are very free moving, here and there, and chanting.
Kirtanananda: They stay on the grounds?
Hari-sauri: They never leave the grounds. They sleep up in one tree.
Prabhupada: They are free to move from one tree to another, but they don't go outside. Only complaint they are eating flowers.
Dhrstadyumna: Yes, they are eating all the flowers.
Prabhupada: They are also trained, they are not afraid. They are sitting, you go, they are not afraid. They have been trained up that "We are at home." That animals and any birds can be trained. Just like these cows, they know that all of you are friends. Animals can understand. Even if you can make friends with the tigers and lions. Yes. I have seen it. In that New York exhibition, one man was showing me. He was embracing the lion and playing like dog. I've seen it.
Hari-sauri: That used to be a circus trick as well. They used to put their heads in the lion's mouth.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dhrstadyumna: As long as the lion is well fed, you can put your head in his mouth, but if you don't feed him, then it is dangerous.
Prabhupada: Naturally, if he's animal. They can understand that he's giving you food, he's my friend. The love, friendship, everything is there, even in animals.
Devotee: Except God consciousness.
Prabhupada: That is possible in human life. But animal also can become God conscious by association.
Kirtanananda: Sometimes I've heard you say, Srila Prabhupada, that love only exists between similar categories.
Prabhupada: Similar categories, the love is very conducive. Otherwise [nevertheless?] love is possible with any living entity. The central object of love is Krsna. That is Vrndavana. The animals love Krsna, the human beings love Krsna, the trees love Krsna, the water love Krsna, everyone loves Krsna -- central point. That is the perfection of love.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Advancement: material versus spiritual...of milk and meat...engage children as Krsna was...Krsna consciousness as working for Krsna...even an animal can become God conscious by association

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If you want to be a Devotee You Cannot Preach Your Philosophy, you have to Preach Krishna's Philosophy

April 12, 1975

Prabhupada: ...nanyat. Na anyat. So this is going on. And where is surrender? If you don't believe in Krsna, don't surrender to Krsna, then what is the meaning of this surrender? This is going on. Our, one swamiji, is there in Bombay, Cinmayananda. He is a big speaker in Bhagavad-gita, and he has constructed temple-Siva-linga, the genital of Lord Siva. Just see.
Mahamsa: He said he has translated... His interpretation of Krsna is that this "Krsna means black. Black is ignorance. So Krsna is ignorance."

Prabhupada: Just see.

Guest (1) (Indian man): I think one of the best persons in Madras who is translating the Prita-Gita (?), isn't it? Cinmayananda Swami.

Guest (2) (Indian man): Cinmayananda?

Guest (1): Yes. I have heard it.

Guest (2): Ramana Maharshi, (?) has...

Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi was a great man.

Prabhupada: Ramanuja bhasya is a fact.

Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi?

Prabhupada: Ramana Maharshi? No, he did not.

Guest (1): The Ramana Maharshi is actually a... Read Bhagavad-gita. He requested you, "You should always read it."

Prabhupada: "Always read it," but he never preached about Krsna.

Guest (1): Eh?

Prabhupada: But he never preached about Krsna. He may be always reading, but he did not know what is Krsna. He never spoke that "Krsna is the Supreme Lord," never spoke. So what is the use of reading?

Guest (1): Ramana Maharshi?

Prabhupada: Ramana Maharshi, yes, I am speaking of Ramana Maharshi. He never preached about Krsna's superexcellent position, never preached. This is going on. Everyone is taking advantage of Bhagavad-gita and he's preaching in his own way, foolish way. "Own way" means foolish way. This is going on. You cannot... Suppose you have got your philosophy, but you cannot take my book and preach your philosophy. If you have got philosophy, you write your philosophy. Why do you take advantage of my book and misinterpret? This is cheating. Because my book is very popular, you take advantage of my book and preach your own nonsense philosophy. This is going on. If you want to smoke ganja, you smoke in your own hand. Why you capture my hand and smoke? What is this? So the ganja-smelling will be in my hand, not in your hand. This is going on. Why do they take advantage of Bhagavad-gita and preach their nonsense philosophy? That is our protest. You preach your nonsense philosophy. We have no objection. But don't touch Bhagavad-gita. This is our Krsna consciousness movement. What is the... Do you think it is honesty that you want to preach something of your own philosophy and you take advantage of my book and mislead others? Is that very good, honest business? This is going on. This is going on, very dangerous position. In our country, and what to speak of other countries, all these swamis, yogis, and politicians, and scholars, they are doing like this. Very dangerous position. Why should you touch Bhagavad-gita? You speak, you preach, your own philosophy. There are so many philosophies. But our only objection is that "Why should you preach your nonsense philosophy through Bhagavad-gita?" Do you think it is right?

Guest (1): It's not right.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (1): It's not right.

Prabhupada: Yes. That you should understand.

Guest (2): ...not believe Krsna and preaching Bhagavad-gita...

Guest (1): The thing is Ramana Maharshi did preach Bhagavad-gita. He had (inaudible) ...so he kept quiet.

Prabhupada: Why should he kept quiet if he has read Bhagavad-gita?

Guest (3) (Indian man): No. But, say, it's like this. Man who has understood philosophy of Bhagavad-gita probably will not attach much importance whether it's Krsna, Siva or somebody else, once he has reached the supreme state.

Prabhupada: No, if Krsna... Krsna says that "I am the supreme..."

Guest (3): Yes, He says...

Prabhupada: So if you read Bhagavad-gita, then you must accept Krsna as the Supreme. Otherwise, what is the use of...?

Guest (3): No, thing is... is that Krsna is not supreme. Just because somebody doesn't pronounce the name of Krsna, that doesn't mean that...

Prabhupada: That means he does not accept Krsna as Supreme. Therefore he does not pronounce. That is the... If he understands that Krsna is supreme, he should... Just like we have understood. We are chanting always, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna... This is understanding, not, not... If you... Krsna says, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. That is Krsna. Satatam kirtayanto mam: [Bg. 9.14] "Always chanting about Me."

Guest (3): Yeah, but, the thing is...

Prabhupada: There is no "but." This is the instruction of Krsna. You have to accept it. Otherwise, you don't read Bhagavad-gita. That's all.

Guest (3): The question is...

Prabhupada: It is, it... There is no question of "but." Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. If you do not do that, then what is the use of your reading Bhagavad-gita? Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityaja mam ekam saranam vraja, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. If you do not follow these instructions of Krsna, then where do you, why do you waste your time reading Bhagavad-gita, and mislead others? That is our protest. All these misleaders... Perhaps, throughout the whole world, it is the first time -- we are preaching Bhagavad-gita as it is. We are the only institution in the world that we are preaching Bhagavad-gita as it is, and people are liking it. Before that, for the last two hundred years, so many swamis, yogis and..., they tried to preach Hindu philosophy, Vaisnavism. Not a single person was a devotee of Krsna, not a single person. Now you see so many young men. Why? Why this difference? Because we did not present Bhagavad-gita adulterated. Presented as it is, that's all. What is the use of preaching adulterated things? Everyone wants... That appeals as it is. Therefore we present Bhagavad-gita as it is. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We are preaching the same thing -- "Always think of Krsna. Chant Hare Krsna. You remember Krsna always." This is the simplest process. You see all these young boys. They are chanting Hare Krsna. And they are becoming purified from the mode of our life. And these swamis and yogis preached so many years, not a single person was purified. They were drinking; they were having sex. How they can be purified? And in India even, these things are going on, the land of Bhagavad-gita, the land of Krsna. If you want to read Bhagavad-gita, you take it. You follow it. Then everything will be done. Ksipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati. Api te su-duracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak. These things are there. You may be fallen, downtrodden, but if you take to Krsna's instructions, then ksipram bhavati dharmatma. Very soon you'll become... Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [Bg. 9.31]. These things are there. And nobody is serious to take to Krsna consciousness. They'll talk all nonsense, but he'll not take to Krsna consciousness. This is going on. So our task is very difficult, and especially all these prohibitive rules: no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, even up to smoking or chewing pan. So who will accept this philosophy? It is very difficult. Nobody can. Unless he is very serious about Krsna, nobody will take. They have not taken. These principles are our Indian principles. Striyas-suna-pana dyutah yatra papas catur vidhah. But who is taking this? Now they are becoming expert in intoxication, drinking wine. You see. This is India's position. In Europe, America, they do that because there was no such philosophy. But India... Here it is said, yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya karmanam [Bg. 7.28]. That, nobody's interested. Everyone is doing all sorts of sinful activities. And Krsna says, yesam tv anta-gatam papam. He can understand Krsna. But nobody is prepared to give up sinful activities. And how he'll understand Krsna? Krsna is not very easy to be understood. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. One who is siddha, perfect, yatatam api siddhanam... [Bg. 7.3]. Out of many millions of siddhas, one can understand Krsna. This is... These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gita. But nobody cares for that. He lives in his own way, and he has become a big authority. That's all. This rascaldom is going on. Only these few European and American boys, they have taken my words seriously. And therefore, with their help, Krsna consciousness is moving. Otherwise, where is Indian? You are young men. If I say, "You come and join us," you won't do it. But they have done it.

Guest (3): I have got lot of...

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone has got lot of responsibility. I know. But Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityaja mam ekam saranam vraja. That is Krsna's demand. Everyone has got a lot of responsibility.

Guest (3): I don't say responsibility.

Prabhupada: Then?

Guest (3): I say they have got a lot of bhakti towards Krsna because in the house, all of us are...

Prabhupada: Then preach Krsna's philosophy. That is Krsna's order.

Guest (3): Daily we celebrate that Radha-kalyana.

Prabhupada: Why you play Radha-kalyana? Preach Krsna's philosophy. Why do you go to Radha? First of all try to understand Krsna. Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita has never said about Radha. That is very confidential. So why do you jump to Radha? Has Krsna said anything about Radharani in the Bhagavad-gita?

Guest (3): Even in the Bhagavatam you don't see the...

Prabhupada: No, Radha... There, Bhagavata, there is. That is foolish proposition, "In the Bhagavata there is no Radharani." There is. But at least in the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna has never said about His Vrndavana-lila. No. That is very confidential. That is not for common man. The common man, first of all let him understand what is Krsna. That is Bhagavad-gita. That they do not understand. Even big, big leaders, politicians, scholars, they do not understand. Because they do not take to Krsna's instruction, therefore they fail to understand. And what they'll understand about Radharani? You... If you are my confidential friend, then I can take to my family. And if you are outsider, why should you expect to come into my family life? This is common sense. You do not understand Krsna, and you want to understand Krsna's dealings with Radharani. That is very confidential. Radha-krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini-saktir asmat. You have to understand Krsna, then His pleasure potency, hladini-sakti. The difficulty is that we do not want to become a regular student. Haphazardly, here and there, here and there, but I remain the same thing. It is a science. Jnanam me paramam guhyam yad vijnana-samanvitam. Tad vijnana samanvitam. Jnanam te 'ham sa-vijnanam pravaksyami anasuyave, yaj jnatva na anyaj jnatavyam avasisyate... [Bg. 7.2]. But the Vedas do not say like that. Vedas say, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. If you are serious to learn about that, tad vijnana. Tad vijnanam, gurum evabhigacchet. You must go to a bona fide guru who can teach you. Nobody is serious. That is the difficulty. Everyone is thinking, "I am free," although he is pulled by the ear by nature. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. You have done like this, come on, here, sit down. This is going on, prakrti. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. The rascal, befooled by his false ego, he is thinking, "I am everything. I am independent." Those who are thinking like that, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita, ahankara vimudhatma. The false ego is bewildered and thinking, "What I am thinking is all right." No, you cannot think in your own way. Must think as Krsna says, then you are right. Otherwise, you are thinking under the spell of maya, that's all. Tribhir gunamayair bhavair mohita, na 'bhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Mayadhyaksena prakrti suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. These things are there. Read Bhagavad-gita thoroughly, follow the rules and regulations, then your life will be successful. And so long you have got, this is also right, that is also right, then you will not do the right. You will all be misled. That's all. That is not (indistinct). What Krsna says, that is right. That should be the (indistinct). Otherwise you will be misled. So we are trying to preach this philosophy in that way. Maybe, very small number, but ekas candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasra. If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars twinkling. So that is our propaganda. If one man can understand what is Krsna philosophy, then my preaching is successful, that's all. We don't want many millions of stars with no light. What is the use of millions of stars with no light? That is Canakya Pandita's advice, varam eka putra na chavur kasatan api (?). One son, if he is learned, that is sufficient. Na chavur kasatan api (?). What is the use of hundreds of sons, all fools and rascals? Ekas candras tamo hanti na cittara sahasras. One moon is sufficient to illuminate. There is no need of millions of stars. Similarly, we are not after many millions of disciples. I want to see that one disciple has understood Krsna's philosophy. That is success. That's all. Krsna says, yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3], kascid vetti mam tattvatah. So, first of all, to become siddha is very difficult job. And then, yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. There is still difficult job. So, Krsna philosophy is little difficult to understand. If they are understanding so easily, that is not understanding. It is easy, it is easy, if you accept Krsna's words, it is very easy. That is the difficulty. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakta, mad-yaji mam namaskuru, always think of Me. So where is the difficulty? You have seen Krsna's picture, Krsna's Deity, and if you think Krsna, where is the difficulty? After all, we have to think something. So instead of something, why not think Krsna? Where is the difficulty? But he does not take seriously. He has to think so many things, except Krsna. And Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakta. There is no difficulty to take to Krsna consciousness. Not at all. But people will not take it, that is the difficulty. They will argue simply. Kutaka. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakta, where is the argument against it? You are saying that, they may not think of Krsna, they may not say about Krsna. And Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakta. This is argument, this is not philosophy. Philosophy is there, direct, you should do like this, that's all. You do it and get the results. You go to purchase something, the price is fixed, you pay the price and take it. Where is argument? If you are, if you serious about that thing, you may pay price and take it away. That is the advice of Srila Rupa Gosvami. Krsna-bhakti rasa-bhavita-mati kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate. If you can purchase somewhere the thinking of Krsna, krsna-bhakti rasa-bhavita mati. That is, we have translated into "Krsna Consciousness." If you can purchase this consciousness, Krsna consciousness, somewhere, immediately purchase it. Krsna-bhakti rasa-bhavita-mati, kriyatam, just purchase, yadi kuto 'pi labhyate, if it is available somewhere. And if I have to purchase, then what price? Tatra laulyam ekam mulam. Na janma-kotibhih labhyate. If you want what is the price, he says the price is your eagerness. And that eagerness to obtain it, takes many millions of births. Why you want Krsna? Just like the other day I said that if one has seen Krsna, he will become mad after Krsna. That is the sign. These boys are certified in their own country by the Christian priests that "These boys are our boys, they will never come into church, they are never interested about God, and now they are mad after God. What is this?" Because that is the price only to purchase Krsna. To mad after Him. Where is Krsna? He radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-suno kutah. Where You are? Where You are? Sri-govardhana padapa-tale kalindi-vane kutah. Are You under the valley of Govardhana Hill or on the bank of the Yamuna? Where you are? Ghosantav iti sarvato vraja-pure. That was their Krsna consciousness, simply wondering where is Krsna, where is Krsna, where is Krsna. Ghosantav iti sarvato pure khedair maha-vihvalau. Madlike, vihvalau. Vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-go... This is, this price one takes, then you can get Krsna, you can understand Krsna. It is not so cheap, that anyone can comment on Krsna, whimsically, and he becomes a devotee. That is not possible. That is going on. I can interpret in my own way. Krsna says, mam ekam. (indistinct) Somebody is taking Krsna is black, somebody is taking Krsna as something else. Who says Krsna is black? Who told me?

Mahamsa: Cinmayananda.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna means "black." Sapta nuraman pure sita kar baba. (?) One has studied all the Ramayana, seven cantos, seven khandas, and he is asking, "Whose father is Sita?" Sita is a feminine, and the Ramayana expert is asking, "Whose father is Sita?" This is their education, they are becoming big lecturer on Bhagavad-gita, he has understood Krsna means "black." And people are following him blindly. Big swamiji is speaking.

Guest: Can we (indistinct).

Mahamsa: Krsna means, actually in Sanskrit, one of the meanings of the word Krsna...

Guest: That is...

Prabhupada: Krsna is all-attractive, that he will not explain. In the Brahma-samhita, it is said, asitambuda-sundarangam kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-

sobham [Bs. 5.30]. Asitam, sundaram. He is blackish, but He is so attractive, more attractive than many millions of Cupid.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: No, no. Why you should commit offense like that? It is a great offense to decry Krsna.

Guest: (indistinct) ...describe Him as blackish or black.

Prabhupada: But why does he say Krsna means black?

Guest: Krsna means black, (Hindi) Somebody questioned me: "What is Krsna means?" Then apart from this, Sanskrit reply he gave: "Krsna means black also."

Prabhupada: So why did he not say Krsna means all-attractive?

Guest: As far as Krsna's features are concerned, we know it is (indistinct) black. (indistinct)

Mahamsa: The last time we had come here, I had come to just see on the first day what he says. So on the first day he said that now we'll have a gita-jnana yajna, and he said we will take the slokas which are suitable and which slokas are not suitable...

Prabhupada: Just see.

Mahamsa: ...we'll reject those slokas.

Prabhupada: Not suitable.

Mahamsa: I heard that with my own ears. He said...

Guest: From Bhagavad-gita?

Mahamsa: Yes. He said "We will take the slokas which are suitable and which are not suitable, we'll reject those slokas."

Prabhupada: Just see. He is to judge which is suitable, which is not suitable. Just see, this philosophy. Cinmayananda or any ordinary person, he has to judge which sloka is suitable, which is not suitable. That means he is more than Krsna. Krsna has spoken something unsuitable -- which he can judge. This is the position.

Guest: I believe that in another sense whatever is written, we should take the sweet from the (?)...

Prabhupada: There is no sweets...

Guest: ...and if there are some...

Mahamsa: Everything is sweet in Bhagavad-gita.

Guest: ...the other part is there. (indistinct) ...that other part, that meaning be...

Prabhupada: No. Other part, there is no other part. There is only one part. Just like Krsna says that

na mam duskrtino mudhah

prapadyante naradhamah

mayayapahrta-jnana

asurim bhavam asritah

 [Bg. 7.15]

So there is no other part. It is direct meaning. If anyone who has not surrendered to Krsna, he is either duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah, mayayapahrta-jnana, asurim bhavam.

Guest: (indistinct) Don't attack the part of death. (indistinct)

Mahamsa: He was going to (indistinct) slokas. He said he will not accept slokas which are, we can accept, those which we cannot accept we will...

Prabhupada: Reject.

Mahamsa: We will go for the next one.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Mahamsa: That was the reference. He was saying, "Now from today onwards, I will start on this chapter and we will go on to these slokas." He was referring to these slokas.

Prabhupada: Now Krsna has written Bhagavad-gita, not written, has spoken Bhagavad-gita, and He is speaking to me and I have to judge which is suitable? This is, is that my position?

Guest: Perhaps what happens here...

Prabhupada: No perhaps. He says that "What is suitable, we accept. And not suitable reject." Now who will judge which is suitable and which is not suitable? That is the question.

Guest: Here (indistinct) comes just for one day or ten days that...

Prabhupada: May no, what is your answer to this?

Guest: That is what I was answering.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: What he does, each day he takes one sloka, and he just goes on giving discourse for an hour or what... (indistinct) ...he just has his discussion, "Now this sloka, we will take and we will discuss."

Prabhupada: No, I have read some of his...

Guest: ...because his Gita is there, all slokas (indistinct)

Prabhupada: He has said somewhere, I don't particularly know, "The Indian priests(?) think like that."

Tamala Krsna: In his Gita, in the verse that describes how to meditate on the formless, he states that although it says in the Bhagavad-gita that it is very difficult to understand the formless aspect, he says this was true five thousand years ago but now it is no longer true.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Tamala Krsna: I have read in his Gita.

Guest: Five thousand years ago it must have been true but now...

Prabhupada: No, no. There is the verse, kleso 'dhikataras tesam avyakta-sakta-cetasam [Bg. 12.5]. So in explaining that sloka he said, "It was painful five thousand years ago, but it is not now painful. It has become easy." That means the version of Gita can be changed after five thousand years. Then what is the importance of speaking by Krsna if it is changeable like material things? then what is the authority of Krsna? Is it changeable?

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Guest: It is the interpretation of the...

Prabhupada: Why interpretation?

Guest: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Interpretation, first thing is that: why interpretation? If the meaning is straight, just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. And someone is interpreting dharma-ksetre means this body. Why this interpretation? Eh? The dharma-ksetra, kuru-ksetra is still existing, the station is there. People are going as dharmaksetra. Kuruksetra (indistinct) acaret... This is the Vedic instruction that everyone should go to Kuruksetra and perform ritualistic duties, that is being done and it is written dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1], why interpretation?

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) You are more than Krsna? You are so, you have got the audacity to speak more than Krsna?

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Interpretation... (Hindi)

Guest: (Hindi)

Tamala Krsna: We have to go.

Prabhupada: We are discussing the same thing, we go or not go. (laughter)

Guest: People are waiting.

Prabhupada: (Hindi) You are a young man therefore I am requesting you: don't be misled by these blind leaders. Take Bhagavad-gita as it is, and you'll be happy.

Guest: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: The meaning is clear, very clear. There is no question of interpretation.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (end)



>>> Ref. VedaBase => Conversation with Indian Guests -- April 12, 1975, Hyderabad


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© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission.

You Cannot Change God

June 15, 1974

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Yogesvara: This gentleman is Mr. Tran-Van-Kha, the president of...Prthu Putra: Mrs. Basti (sp?), she is the president of the Society of Buddhists in France. And,...
Guest (1): Thomas Dhu (?).
Prabhupada: Sit down.
Prthu Putra: He's the president, (indistinct) honor of honors. Mr. Tran-Van-Kha was ambassador from Vietnam...
Prabhupada: Vietnam.
Prthu Putra: ...in America twenty years ago, and he's now president of the society of Buddhists in France.
Prabhupada: If... Vietnam (indistinct)? No?
Yogesvara: Vietnam what? Well, they say.
Prabhupada: So Vietnam, they profess Buddhist religion?
Prthu Putra: (translates into French)
Guest (1): (French)
Prthu Putra: Eighty per cent.
Prabhupada: So the Buddhist religion so far we know, they are nonviolent.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Guest (1): (French)
Prthu Putra: This gentleman added tolerance.
Prabhupada: Tolerance. If one is nonviolent, he must learn tolerance.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: We pray Lord Buddha: Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. "My Lord, You, for the time being, You are decrying the Vedic authority."
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam means Vedic rituals. Sruti means Vedas. It is learned by hearing. Why He decried the Vedic rituals? Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. You are so much compassionate by seeing animals sacrificed. Animal Killing. Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam. Ghatam means killing, so He wanted to stop this animal killing, sinful life. Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. My Lord, You have appeared now as Lord Buddha, I offer my respectful obeisances unto you.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: Our... I think picture is there. Lord Buddha's picture.
Yogesvara: In the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: No, no. Not Bhagavad-gita.
Yogesvara: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam, back side, the dasavatara. (indistinct)
Prthu Putra: (Explains in French the picture in Second Canto)
Prabhupada: He was Hindu in the beginning. Come on. He was Prince, then He become renounced and He was known as Lord Buddha. So Lord Buddha also started His system for stopping animal killing. Lord Jesus also said, "Thou shall not kill." Unfortunately the animal killing is not stopped. We are therefore teaching our followers: no meat-eating, so that if people stop meat-eating, automatically animal killing will be stopped. According to Vedic system, there are four pillars of sinful life, just like this table is on the four pillars. So one pillar is illicit sex, another meat-eating, another intoxication, and another gambling. So at least the brahmanas, the priestly heads of religion, the king and the public leader, they should stop these four sinful activities. The leaders of the society they must be sinless. Then the human society will make nice progress. In the Bhagavad gita it is stated: yad yad acarati sresthas.
yad yad acarati sresthas
tat tad evetaro janah
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
 [Bg. 3.21]
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: Acarati.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Yogesvara: What is second line?
Prabhupada: Sa yat pramanam kurute. In the 'yad' you did not find?
Yogesvara: Y-a-d?
Prabhupada: Yes, y-a-d. Yad yad.
Pusta-krsna: Yad yad acarati sresthas.
Prabhupada: Mmm.
Pusta-krsna:
yad yad acarati sresthas
tat tad evetaro janah
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
 [Bg. 3.21]
Translation, "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."
Prthu Putra: (French) (pause)
Yogesvara: When we were at your meeting a few weeks ago, there was, we felt very encouraged because there was very nice interest in how it was that these young western boys and girls had been able to take to this form of Krsna consciousness. (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogesvara: Last night, at the conference hall, this lady heard your lecture about how the soul reincarnates in different kinds of bodies. So she wants to know how is this possible because in the West, our understanding is that the animal forms do not possess a soul.
Prabhupada: How does..., she can prove that she does not, it does not possess a soul.
Prthu Putra: She just doesn't understand. She does not say that. She does not understand.
Prabhupada: No. She admits man has got soul, and animal has not soul.
Yogesvara: See, what she says this is the traditional western idea.
Prabhupada: But that idea is wrong.
Yogesvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogesvara: She was open to receive a more detailed explanation of the process.
Prabhupada: First of all, let us see what are the symptoms of having soul.
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: See, you can come here. Let her come.
Yogesvara: Ask the lady to have a better seat.
Prabhupada: Come.
Prthu Putra: See, there she has a seat.
Prabhupada: Never mind, we can sit down here. Bring that chair.
Devotee: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Yogesvara: Sylvie (?) has a question.
Lady (2): I want to ask you. What does it (indistinct) when you, when there's talk of this religion of Krsna. Is it before Christ or more?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Yogesvara: This, the question of religion, did it come before Christ or before Buddha?
Prabhupada: Yes, 5,000 years ago.
Lady (2): Yes, before.
Prabhupada: 5,000 years.
Prthu Putra: (translates into French)
Lady (2): 5,000 years, eh?
Prabhupada: This is now. Before that, this was spoken some millions of years ago to the Sun-god. You find out that verse, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1].
Yogesvara: Four, one.
Pusta-krsna: Fourth Chapter.
Prthu Putra:
sri bhagavan uvaca
imam vivasvate yogam
proktavan aham avyayam
vivasvan manave praha
manur iksvakave 'bravit
 [Bg. 4.1]
(French)
Prabhupada: So, if you take the calculation of Manu, Manu lives for 72,000 of yugas. One yuga is 4,300,000 of years.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: 4,300,000 years, one yuga.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: Multiply by 72. So that is the age of Manu. So, at least so many years before, Bhagavad-gita was spoken to Manu's father, Surya. Surya, the Sun-god.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: Sun-god. So how many millions?
Pusta-krsna: About 120,000,000 years ago.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: So this philosophy was spoken 300 millions of years ago. And then again, He spoke 5,000 years ago. This is the history of Bhagavad-gita. Now, your question. You say that animal has no soul, is it not?
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: That a man has soul, you admit?
Yogesvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogesvara: Generally in the West it is admitted that the man possesses a soul and not the animals.
Prabhupada: So why this difference? What difference you find in animal from the man?
Yogesvara: (French)
Lady (1): (French)
Yogesvara: She says it is only the body that is different.
Prabhupada: Only body difference? The man who is there has got body different. The, the Africans, they have got different body. And the Europeans have different body. There are so many men. The aborigines have got different body. So there so many men, human also.
Yogesvara: So then that is not the real difference?
Prabhupada: So what is the real difference, that I want to explain.
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: So what is her reply?
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: Suppose a child has a different body...
Lady (3): (French)
Yogesvara: This young lady suggests that the animals do have a soul, and that they also pass from body to body, and perhaps ultimately can come to the human form.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the explanation. You are right.
Guest (2): (French)
Prthu Putra: He says the evolution was already before, because in the vegetables is already this process of evolution of the soul.
Prabhupada: Every living entity has soul. The body is just like the dress, just like you are sitting here under different dresses, but that does not mean we are different. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita: vasamsi jirnani. Find out this, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22].
Yogesvara: Second Chapter.
Prabhupada: You can take it. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya, navani grhnati naro 'parani.
Yogesvara:
vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro 'parani
tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi
 [Bg. 2.22]
(French) "As a person put on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."
Prabhupada: This is the point. Just like I've already changed. I was a child, so small. Where is that body? That is no longer existing, But still I remember that I had the body. So I changed that body so many times. Similarly, when this body will be useless, I change to another body. This is conclusion. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara.
Yogesvara: (French)
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
 [Bg. 2.13]
(French) "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."
Prabhupada: So, not only the animals. The trees, the plants, the insects, the birds, the bees, the aquatic animal: fish. Everyone has got soul. So anything, which has got life symptom, it is due to soul and so long the soul is there the change of body takes place. A child born, if it is dead, the change of body does not take place. You cannot understand?
Lady (2): No.
Prabhupada: You have got now a different body, but you had a body like a child, so you cannot understand this? Why is that? Even a child can understand. You were also sometimes a body like this young girl. You do not believe that?
Yogesvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogesvara: She says she can recollect.
Prabhupada: No, but who recollects? The soul. The body is changed. The body is changed, but the soul is the same and therefore she can recollect.
Yogesvara: (French)
Lady (2): (French)
Yogesvara: She says there is an example of the worm that turns into a butterfly. It changes body.
Prabhupada: Yes, she is right.
Lady (2): (French)
Yogesvara: (French) Do you have any questions?
Guest (3): (French)
Yogesvara: He says there is an example that a flower grows, and when it dies it gives its perfume to God.
Prabhupada: Yes, very good idea. Therefore, everyone can dedicate his energy to God. And that is called bhakti.
Guest (4): (French)
Yogesvara: Is the sun to be considered a representation of God?
Prabhupada: Yes, every..., everyone is representation of God. Sun is more powerful representation. You are also representation of God. The God is also a living being. That is said in the dictionary, Oxford Dictionary. God means, "Supreme Being." So we are all beings, and God is the Supreme Being. We are limited by our power. God is unlimited by His power.
Lady (3): (French)
Yogesvara: When we say Krsna, are we speaking about God or an incarnation of God? How to define it?
Prabhupada: No, God Himself.
Lady (4): (French)
Yogesvara: Then what is the meaning of the word atma?
Prabhupada: Atma means also God. Atma means this body. Atma means this mind. Atma means the soul, and atma means also God. Atma means the active principle which is working. Just like in you the atma is there, therefore your body is moving. Similarly, the active principle of the whole cosmic manifestation is God.
Guest (2): (French)
Yogesvara: What is the meaning of the different cakras?
Prabhupada: Different?
Yogesvara: Cakra, cakras.
Prabhupada: Cakra?
Yogesvara: Cakras.
Prabhupada: That is yogic process. Those who are trying to find out the Supreme from the body, for them the different cakras mean the active principle, how He is working in different places. From the abdomen to the heart, then here, then here, then here. Sat-cakra, six cakras. That is yogic system.
Guest (1): (French)
Yogesvara: Do we have a meaning, do we have a definition for the third eye?
Prabhupada: Humm?
Yogesvara: The third eye.
Prabhupada: Third eye. The future. Future.
Yogesvara: Future?
Prabhupada: Past, present and future.
Pusta-krsna: There is a philosophy, Srila Prabhupada, they say that you meditate on some third eye, and this opens up into the..., some spiritual realization, a mystical realization. It is very popular.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Between the two eyebrows, that is said, explained in the Bhagavad-gita, bhruvor madhye..., ante kale ca mam...
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: That's Eight Chapter, I think, bhruvor madhye. Eighth Chapter? Hmm. Is it the Eighth Chapter?
Yogesvara: That is the Eighth Chapter, text 21, 22.
Prabhupada: Ten. Read.
Prthu Putra:
prayana-kale manasa 'calena
bhaktya yukto yoga-balena caiva
bhruvor madhye pranam avesya samyak
sa tam param purusam upaiti divyam
(French translation) "One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and in full devotion engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord, will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
Prabhupada: This is bhruvor madhye.
Guest (3): (French)
Yogesvara: He says: today, is it wise to practice this kind of meditation?
Prabhupada: Useless. They cannot. It takes very, very, long time to get perfection. Valmiki Muni got perfection in 60,000 years. Oh, Sixth Chapter. Read this, Arjuna uvaca.
Yogesvara:
arjuna uvaca
yo 'yam yogas tvaya proktah
samyena madhusudana
etasyaham na pasyami
cancalatvat sthitim sthiram
(French translation) "Arjuna said, O Madhusudana, the system of yoga which you have summarized appears impractical and unendurable to me, for the mind is restless and unsteady."
Prabhupada: Yoga, this yoga system means controlling the mind. But 5,000 years ago a person like Arjuna, who had his friend Krsna, he is saying that it is not possible for him. And at the present moment people are so degraded -- not in the position of Arjuna -- how they can get success? He is not ordinary man. Such a great warrior belonged to the royal family, and so qualified that he could talk with Krsna personally, he says that it is not possible. So, do you think that you are..., become more than Arjuna that you can get success?
Prthu Putra: Translating into French.
Prabhupada: Read this second verse, cancalam hi manah krsna pramathi balavad drdham.
Yogesvara:
cancalam hi manah krsna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva suduskaram
 [Bg. 6.34]
(French translation) "For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krsna, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind."
Prabhupada: So Arjuna is presenting his inability, and what we are?
Guest (3): (French)
Yogesvara: He says, in history there was the mystery of the sphinxes of Egypt, do these sphinxes carry any significance?
Prabhupada: Hum?
Yogesvara: Is the pyramid and the sphinx in Egypt civilization are any mystic significance?
Prthu Putra: It's a great relevance for the Egyptian civilization.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is just like samadhi. Samadhi, when you become samadhi, then if you're, I mean to say, put within the earth, you do not die.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Pusta-krsna: Even if you are put in the earth you do not die.
Prthu Putra: (French)
Prabhupada: This is called kumbhaka-yoga.
Guest (3): Kunbha?
Prabhupada: Kumbhaka. So this is practiced by the frogs also. So if you get success, you get success like the frog.
Lady (2): (French)
Yogesvara: Shall I tell them that story about the frog?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: That means the frog was buried at least for 10,000 years.
Yogesvara: (French)
Prabhupada: Read the last paragraph of the yoga system: yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana.
Prthu Putra:
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
 [Bg. 6.47]
(French translation) "And of all yogis, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." [break] (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Mr. Tran-van-Kha, and President & Members of the Society of Buddhists in France -- June 15, 1974, Paris

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