Prabhupada: Yes. The mind is
there. Everyone knows, you have got mind, I have got mind. But can you see the
mind? Can you see the intelligence?Guest (1): These are something abstract,
you know.
Prabhupada: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.
Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult.
Prabhupada: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupada: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gita.
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
[Bg. 3.42]
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses. Indriyani. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding. (pause) Give him prasada.
Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prana is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prana is the life force, isn't it?
Pradyumna: Says like prana is the life force.
Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body?
Prabhupada: These are air. Prana, in the prana, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called pranayama. That is yogic process.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupada: Prana is a life air which carries the soul. It is very small, atomic. And not our men. Give her. She's answered. (laughs) Give her one.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupada: Give her one, that girl. Give all. (Bengali) You are a lawyer. (Bengali) That is not your business. You must know it.
Guest (3): (Bengali)
Prabhupada: That's a good qualification.
Guest (3): No.
Prabhupada: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na... [Bg. 2.13], dhirah, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."
Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me.
Prabhupada: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.
Guest (2): I won't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared to that extent.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes, that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it.
Guest (2): I don't think that logic can explain anything.
Prabhupada: No, logic cannot. But still as much logic you require, that logic is there.
Guest (2): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about, I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step...
Prabhupada: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that you may keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use. Nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use.
Guest (2): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything.
Prabhupada: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?
Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?)
Prabhupada: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not?
Guest (1): Yes, that's true.
Prabhupada: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Sabda-pramana. The best evidence. Sabda-pramana. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramana, sabda-pramana is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.
Mukunda: Srila Prabhupada, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name too please.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, you'll have.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupada: You'll have. You like to be bald-headed?
Pearl: (laughs) No, I think I'll keep my hair if you don't mind. I can't give up everything.
Prabhupada: All right.
Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually.
Prabhupada: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed.
Pearl: You mean healed spiritually.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real healing.
Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it.
Prabhupada: Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic. (laughter)
Guest (1): Prabhupada, they don't want any.
Prabhupada: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality.
Guest (1): They lost their intelligence, by this civilization or by this culture.
Prabhupada: Yes. Adanta-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult.
Guest (1): Like he said: "I'm not prepared for that."
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer.
Guest (1): Then you try to be prepared.
Prabhupada: They are not prepared because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that?
Guest (1): No, I don't.
Prabhupada: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer.
Guest (1): Delhi, some astrologer said?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): What does the government of India say about that, any comment?
Prabhupada: That I do not know.
Guest (1): Are they going to worship there? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gita was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gita. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehantara-praptih. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehantara-praptih. What do you think, Bhadra Krsna? The dehantara-praptih, do they understand?
Bhadra Krsna: It's not something known.
Prabhupada: Yes. They do not understand.
Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gita. But how the name of Rama has come when he died? The name of Rama, Hare Rama, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is...
Prabhupada: Practice, practice. Raghupati raghava raja rama.
Guest (1): So that came at the last word.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice.
Prabhupada: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.
Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...,
Prabhupada: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "ha rama." He wanted to speak "harama," but it become "ha rama." That is the... He did not know anything about Rama, but the name Rama is so powerful that although he said, "harama," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gita, but as he chanted "ha rama," that has been effective.
Pearl: I wondered what "Rama" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rama, you see.
Prabhupada: Rama means...
Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing.
Prabhupada: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity.
Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rama, raghupati raghava raja rama.
Prabhupada: He was a pious man.
Guest (1): He was pious man.
Prabhupada: Undoubtedly.
Guest (1): So he chanted "Rama" in practice.
Prabhupada: Daily he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama. So...,
Guest (3): (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Krsna. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rama.
Guest (1): (laughs) No.
Prabhupada: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rama, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rama is a fact, Krsna is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rama, glories of Krsna. He took the chanting of Rama for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nama-aparadha. Samah subha-kriya mati pramanah (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rama. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,
Prabhupada: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...
Guest (1): But not political post.
Prabhupada: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rama, that he did not. He took it, "Rama" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rama." So...
Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position?
Prabhupada: No... But because he did not understand Rama, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.
Guest (1): High position.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet
Guest (1): Still in the material world.
Srutakirti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.
Prabhupada: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahma. Brahma's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahma. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in the...um. That verse, yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gita, that's a fact.
Guest (1): But what about this position of Valmiki or Ramayana?
Prabhupada: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rama.
Guest (1): They knew.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.
Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write Ramayana if he didn't understand Lord Ramacandra?
Prabhupada: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.
Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kuruksetra is this body, five Pandavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction.
Prabhupada: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Krsna, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter.
Guest (1): The name is so powerful.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is that?
Pradyumna: Prapya punya-krtam lokan.
Prabhupada: Ah, prapya punya-krtam lokan. This is the... So punya-krtam lokan means heavenly planet. Prapya punya-krtam lokan. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Krsna consciousness. What is that, prapya punya-krtam lokan?
Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupada: Usitva sasvatih samah. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Usitva sasvatih samah. What is it? Usitva sasvatih samah?
Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupada: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brahmana family, sucinam, or very rich, vaisya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Krsna conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Krsna gives His straight understanding, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti: [Bg. 4.9] You become Krsna conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhananda Sarasvati says, kaivalyam narakayate tridasa-pur akasa-puspayate. Tridasa-pur means the heavenly planets. Akasa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoda-dima. Ghoda-dima. Dima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.
Guest (1): Hawaikila (?).
Prabhupada: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaisnava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all.
Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self-realization?
Prabhupada: Next birth?
Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Krsna, Krsna consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Maya dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.
Guest (1): People say about Uraya Karan Singh...
Prabhupada: Karan Singh?
Guest (1): ...of Kashmir, he's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): Very religious and...
Prabhupada: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very. He loves Krsna. No, he's a good man.
Guest (1): That's a good example, example like that.
Guest (1): Likes the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated.
Guest (1): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year hearing Bhagavatam discourses he accepted he would come come. We got his letter also.
Prabhupada: This is due to government post.
Guest (1): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him, He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started.
Prabhupada: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high-court justices and that, the Canadian ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below.
Guest (1): You didn't see the high commissioner there. He sat down.
Prabhupada: He's also a very nice man.
Guest (1): Maybe some pious activities that they have.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): But this is their duty to respect.
Prabhupada: [break] ...in this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here.
Guest (1): There are many stories in Mahabharata. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets and from there. Many stories.
Prabhupada: Ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg. 9.21]. You have got prasada? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? Come on. (end)
Prabhupada: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.
Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult.
Prabhupada: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupada: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gita.
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
[Bg. 3.42]
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses. Indriyani. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding. (pause) Give him prasada.
Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prana is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prana is the life force, isn't it?
Pradyumna: Says like prana is the life force.
Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body?
Prabhupada: These are air. Prana, in the prana, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called pranayama. That is yogic process.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupada: Prana is a life air which carries the soul. It is very small, atomic. And not our men. Give her. She's answered. (laughs) Give her one.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupada: Give her one, that girl. Give all. (Bengali) You are a lawyer. (Bengali) That is not your business. You must know it.
Guest (3): (Bengali)
Prabhupada: That's a good qualification.
Guest (3): No.
Prabhupada: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na... [Bg. 2.13], dhirah, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."
Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me.
Prabhupada: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.
Guest (2): I won't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared to that extent.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes, that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it.
Guest (2): I don't think that logic can explain anything.
Prabhupada: No, logic cannot. But still as much logic you require, that logic is there.
Guest (2): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about, I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step...
Prabhupada: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that you may keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use. Nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use.
Guest (2): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything.
Prabhupada: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?
Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?)
Prabhupada: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not?
Guest (1): Yes, that's true.
Prabhupada: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Sabda-pramana. The best evidence. Sabda-pramana. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramana, sabda-pramana is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.
Mukunda: Srila Prabhupada, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name too please.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, you'll have.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupada: You'll have. You like to be bald-headed?
Pearl: (laughs) No, I think I'll keep my hair if you don't mind. I can't give up everything.
Prabhupada: All right.
Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually.
Prabhupada: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed.
Pearl: You mean healed spiritually.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real healing.
Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it.
Prabhupada: Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic. (laughter)
Guest (1): Prabhupada, they don't want any.
Prabhupada: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality.
Guest (1): They lost their intelligence, by this civilization or by this culture.
Prabhupada: Yes. Adanta-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult.
Guest (1): Like he said: "I'm not prepared for that."
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer.
Guest (1): Then you try to be prepared.
Prabhupada: They are not prepared because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that?
Guest (1): No, I don't.
Prabhupada: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer.
Guest (1): Delhi, some astrologer said?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): What does the government of India say about that, any comment?
Prabhupada: That I do not know.
Guest (1): Are they going to worship there? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gita was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gita. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehantara-praptih. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehantara-praptih. What do you think, Bhadra Krsna? The dehantara-praptih, do they understand?
Bhadra Krsna: It's not something known.
Prabhupada: Yes. They do not understand.
Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gita. But how the name of Rama has come when he died? The name of Rama, Hare Rama, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is...
Prabhupada: Practice, practice. Raghupati raghava raja rama.
Guest (1): So that came at the last word.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice.
Prabhupada: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.
Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...,
Prabhupada: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "ha rama." He wanted to speak "harama," but it become "ha rama." That is the... He did not know anything about Rama, but the name Rama is so powerful that although he said, "harama," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gita, but as he chanted "ha rama," that has been effective.
Pearl: I wondered what "Rama" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rama, you see.
Prabhupada: Rama means...
Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing.
Prabhupada: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity.
Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rama, raghupati raghava raja rama.
Prabhupada: He was a pious man.
Guest (1): He was pious man.
Prabhupada: Undoubtedly.
Guest (1): So he chanted "Rama" in practice.
Prabhupada: Daily he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama. So...,
Guest (3): (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Krsna. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rama.
Guest (1): (laughs) No.
Prabhupada: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rama, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rama is a fact, Krsna is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rama, glories of Krsna. He took the chanting of Rama for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nama-aparadha. Samah subha-kriya mati pramanah (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rama. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,
Prabhupada: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...
Guest (1): But not political post.
Prabhupada: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rama, that he did not. He took it, "Rama" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rama." So...
Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position?
Prabhupada: No... But because he did not understand Rama, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.
Guest (1): High position.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet
Guest (1): Still in the material world.
Srutakirti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.
Prabhupada: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahma. Brahma's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahma. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in the...um. That verse, yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gita, that's a fact.
Guest (1): But what about this position of Valmiki or Ramayana?
Prabhupada: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rama.
Guest (1): They knew.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.
Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write Ramayana if he didn't understand Lord Ramacandra?
Prabhupada: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.
Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kuruksetra is this body, five Pandavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction.
Prabhupada: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Krsna, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter.
Guest (1): The name is so powerful.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is that?
Pradyumna: Prapya punya-krtam lokan.
Prabhupada: Ah, prapya punya-krtam lokan. This is the... So punya-krtam lokan means heavenly planet. Prapya punya-krtam lokan. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Krsna consciousness. What is that, prapya punya-krtam lokan?
Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupada: Usitva sasvatih samah. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Usitva sasvatih samah. What is it? Usitva sasvatih samah?
Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41].
Prabhupada: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brahmana family, sucinam, or very rich, vaisya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Krsna conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Krsna gives His straight understanding, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti: [Bg. 4.9] You become Krsna conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhananda Sarasvati says, kaivalyam narakayate tridasa-pur akasa-puspayate. Tridasa-pur means the heavenly planets. Akasa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoda-dima. Ghoda-dima. Dima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.
Guest (1): Hawaikila (?).
Prabhupada: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaisnava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all.
Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self-realization?
Prabhupada: Next birth?
Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Krsna, Krsna consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Maya dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.
Guest (1): People say about Uraya Karan Singh...
Prabhupada: Karan Singh?
Guest (1): ...of Kashmir, he's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): Very religious and...
Prabhupada: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very. He loves Krsna. No, he's a good man.
Guest (1): That's a good example, example like that.
Guest (1): Likes the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated.
Guest (1): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year hearing Bhagavatam discourses he accepted he would come come. We got his letter also.
Prabhupada: This is due to government post.
Guest (1): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him, He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started.
Prabhupada: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high-court justices and that, the Canadian ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below.
Guest (1): You didn't see the high commissioner there. He sat down.
Prabhupada: He's also a very nice man.
Guest (1): Maybe some pious activities that they have.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): But this is their duty to respect.
Prabhupada: [break] ...in this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here.
Guest (1): There are many stories in Mahabharata. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets and from there. Many stories.
Prabhupada: Ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg. 9.21]. You have got prasada? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? Come on. (end)
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Room Conversation -- September 2, 1973, London
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
