Prabhupada: ...to stop him for taking
another Nobel Prize. Where is? (laughter) I am giving him notes that life is not
from matter. Matter is from life. So he is going to write thesis on
this.Paramahamsa: Jaya. Vedanta-sutra.
Prabhupada: This is the fact. The so-called scientists, they are going on a wrong theory. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." So Krsna is life. Krsna is not dead stone. Svarupa Damodara?
Svarupa Damodara: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Krsna says that "I am the source of everything." He is life.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: He is not a dead stone. Then how matter can be the cause of life?
Svarupa Damodara: Matter is caused by life.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter grows upon life. Just like why this body has grown upon me? I am the spirit soul. This is maya. Just like, this is... I have explained in Bhagavad-gita. I am putting on this overcoat. The overcoat is made according to the size of my body, but I am thinking, "I am overcoat." This is foolishness. Just like I got my hand, therefore this overcoat is made of warm cloth. It has got a hand also. Because originally I have got hand, therefore the overcoat has got a hand. Similarly, originally I am spirit soul, I have got my spiritual body, and the material body has grown, cut according to the body.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, what about in mineralogy? Scientists have proven that, for example, mountains are growing by sedimentary activity.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also growing on spirit soul, Supersoul.
Paramahamsa: In the mountain?
Prabhupada: Yes, everything. Mountains have been described in the Bhagavata as the bones of God. These grasses are described as hairs on the body of God. These holes, there are holes, we saw that. They have been described as oceans. So in this way, this virat, the biggest body. As the smallest body is producing chemical, similarly the biggest body also, producing chemical. A small tree, lemon tree, how many pounds of the citric acid it is produced?
Paramahamsa: I do not know.
Prabhupada: No, producing, you know.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So if the tree can produce so much chemicals, how much the body of God can produce chemicals, we can imagine only. They are giving the theory that "From these chemicals life begins, or evolution begins." But wherefrom that chemical developed? That they do not know. That explanation is here, Krsna: "I am the source."
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam or the Krsna Book, you state that even clouds have souls. But then again they dissipate, in the rain they dissolve. Does that mean they die?
Prabhupada: No. Just like your body dissolves. Does it mean you die?
Paramahamsa: So that means the life span of a cloud is very minute or very short. Is that so?
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many living entities.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, my understanding of the evolution and the transmigration is that evolution is uni-directional, only in one direction.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Whereas the transmigration can be both, in both directions. They can go up or can go down.
Prabhupada: No. Both ways. When you say "trans," "trans" does not mean stereotyped. For lower animals, that is one side, and for human being, both sides. Because after all, the body is made according to your desire. The lower animals, they have got one kind of desire, but the human being, he has got thousands and millions of desires.
Svarupa Damodara: So the platform of transmigration from the human platform, so it works, either it can go down or it can go up.
Prabhupada: No, transmigration (is) going on. They are coming automatically, animals, to the upper level of human form. But when you come to human form, if you don't cultivate Krsna consciousness, you remain as cats and dog, then you become again cat and dog.
Svarupa Damodara: But the evolution stops when the spirit soul reaches the eternal abode in the spiritual...
Prabhupada: Yes, when he is no more entangled by a material body. Hare Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: The scientists have no information that there is evolution after human platform.
Prabhupada: That is their rascaldom. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge; still, they proclaim they are scientists.
Paramahamsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will...
Prabhupada: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress is yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Samsiddhim paramam gatah. That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gita. Everything is there. Mam upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duhkhalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah [Bg. 8.15]. They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life.
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.
Prabhupada: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?
Svarupa Damodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...
Prabhupada: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?
Svarupa Damodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies.
Prabhupada: Then?
Paramahamsa: Something akin to Buddhism.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Paramahamsa: The Buddhists also say that the body is like a house. You put the house together, you put the body together with chemicals. And when the bodies die, just like you take the house apart, all the wood, and then there is no more house... no more soul, no more life.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called nirvana. And with the chemicals you can build another house. Buddhists they do not give any information of the soul. That is Buddhism. What...? Oh, wet? (the ground?)
Svarupa Damodara: No, it's dry.
Paramahamsa: There's another very interesting factor that scientists, they state that matter is, or that there is, they dispute the fact that there's one soul within the body. There's a special kind of worm, it's an earthworm, that if you cut it in half, both parts will live.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So they wonder how is it possible that if there is soul, that there could be two souls within one body?
Prabhupada: Yes, why not. Souls takes the opportunity.
Paramahamsa: Oh, it takes the opportunity of the other body, the fertile...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.
Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma [Bg. 3.27]. He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrarudhani mayaya. Maya has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
[Cc. Madhya 19.151]
Svarupa Damodara: Mahaprabhu?
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Krsna, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta). The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That's all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."
Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: But then again there's this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Krsna? This continues?
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahamsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of maya.
Paramahamsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahamsa: Why?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Ignorance?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada gives the example of the elephant.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Takes shower again and...
Prabhupada: Yes. Hasti-snana. Therefore, knowledge giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Krsna gives Arjuna, knowledge giving, that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Krsna begins, Bhagavad-gita, where is that university? Svarupa Damodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university?
Svarupa Damodara: There is none in the universities.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, PhD's, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called, fools' paradise.
Svarupa Damodara: If the scientists know that we are not this body, then definitely the whole outlook will be changed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we want to do.
Paramahamsa: They don't want to admit their failure.
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. If you are a fool and if you want to pose yourself as intelligent, that is another foolishness. You cannot make progress. Stubborn dogs. If you are seeking after knowledge, you must take the right knowledge. That is intelligence. And if you want to remain in ignorance and advertise yourself that "I am man of knowledge," how much cheater you are! You are cheating yourself and cheating others. That is going on. We want to stop this.
Paramahamsa: Just like many of our devotees, we experienced when we tried to preach to our parents, because they are much older, to admit that Krsna consciousness is the right path in life, means to also admit that they have wasted their entire life.
Prabhupada: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja said kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan: [SB 7.6.1] "Krsna consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.
Krsna-kanti: Because of sense gratification or mind...
Prabhupada: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...,
Svarupa Damodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt.
Prabhupada: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.
Paramahamsa: Or worn by age.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have all been described as mayayapahrta-jnanah: [Bg. 7.15] "Their real knowledge is taken away by maya." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."
Paramahamsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....
Prabhupada: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the sudras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of sudras. These scientists, they are also sudras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brahmana means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-janatiti brahmanah. And this industrial development means technologists; they are sudras.
Krsna-kanti: But they have taken the position of brahmanas in the society.
Prabhupada: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brahmana? Brahmana's position is to teach brahmana knowledge, brahma-jnana. That is brahmana.
Paramahamsa: Prior to the growth of technology...
Prabhupada: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are sudras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of sudras. Kalau sudra-sambhavah: "In this age, all are sudras." Only we are trying to become brahmana. Otherwise all sudras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body?
Paramahamsa: Corpse.
Prabhupada: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.
Paramahamsa: The question I have, Prabhupada is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means sudras. That I have already said.
Paramahamsa: But now they listen more to scientists.
Prabhupada: That means sudra. Sudras are interested to hear from sudra.
Paramahamsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes. That must be, therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by the saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. (laughter)
Paramahamsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Paramahamsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.
Prabhupada: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.
Paramahamsa: But preach first.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: They don't preach.
Prabhupada: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Paramahamsa: A new method of warfare.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a little wet.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupada: Well, the questions... Answers are there in my books.
Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity. Whether there. What is this? Sacrificial arena? (laughter)
Paramahamsa: For children, I think. No? For cooking, yeah. (pause)
Prabhupada: (About tennis players) How people are kept into ignorance. Life is so valuable, and they are wasting time in that way. Life is valuable, how life should be utilized, what is the object of life -- they do not know anything.
Svarupa Damodara: Without knowing that the soul is eternal, everybody would be acting like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-kharah. Go means cows, and kharah means ass. One who is in the, under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge.
Paramahamsa: At least, the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary, whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we suffer also, more than the animals. (pause) So Krsna consciousness movement is not a bogus religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Krsna conscious. (pause) [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance.
Prabhupada: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarupa Damodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupada: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Svarupa Damodara: According to him it is simply by chance.
Prabhupada: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?
Svarupa Damodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re-orient, change as a fashion because of necessity.
Prabhupada: Why? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity?
Paramahamsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance.
Prabhupada: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule?" Is that the cause of excuse?
Svarupa Damodara: That's because of my ignorance.
Prabhupada: That is chance. That is chance. Because I am ignorant, therefore there is chance.
Paramahamsa: It would be just as stupid as saying a beautiful instrument like a car was made by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is the most regrettable condition, that these rascals are getting recognition; talking all foolish, and they are getting recognition.
Svarupa Damodara: It's so strange. When I read that book. He defines the difference between the living and the non-living by a term called teleonomy. I tried to find out in the dictionary and I couldn't find any word like that. But I understood that what he meant was...
Prabhupada: Hyerpolosvel. (Prabhupada's mythical scientific word) (laughter)
Krsna-kanti: He invents his own word jugglery.
Svarupa Damodara: He was trying to present the difference between organic beings and the non-organic beings. So he goes in such a round about fashion just to differentiate.
Prabhupada: Petitio principii. This logic is called petitio principii. He has to prove something, but he is taking his premises from that something. (end)
Prabhupada: This is the fact. The so-called scientists, they are going on a wrong theory. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah: [Bg. 10.8] "I am the origin of everything." So Krsna is life. Krsna is not dead stone. Svarupa Damodara?
Svarupa Damodara: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Krsna says that "I am the source of everything." He is life.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: He is not a dead stone. Then how matter can be the cause of life?
Svarupa Damodara: Matter is caused by life.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter grows upon life. Just like why this body has grown upon me? I am the spirit soul. This is maya. Just like, this is... I have explained in Bhagavad-gita. I am putting on this overcoat. The overcoat is made according to the size of my body, but I am thinking, "I am overcoat." This is foolishness. Just like I got my hand, therefore this overcoat is made of warm cloth. It has got a hand also. Because originally I have got hand, therefore the overcoat has got a hand. Similarly, originally I am spirit soul, I have got my spiritual body, and the material body has grown, cut according to the body.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, what about in mineralogy? Scientists have proven that, for example, mountains are growing by sedimentary activity.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also growing on spirit soul, Supersoul.
Paramahamsa: In the mountain?
Prabhupada: Yes, everything. Mountains have been described in the Bhagavata as the bones of God. These grasses are described as hairs on the body of God. These holes, there are holes, we saw that. They have been described as oceans. So in this way, this virat, the biggest body. As the smallest body is producing chemical, similarly the biggest body also, producing chemical. A small tree, lemon tree, how many pounds of the citric acid it is produced?
Paramahamsa: I do not know.
Prabhupada: No, producing, you know.
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So if the tree can produce so much chemicals, how much the body of God can produce chemicals, we can imagine only. They are giving the theory that "From these chemicals life begins, or evolution begins." But wherefrom that chemical developed? That they do not know. That explanation is here, Krsna: "I am the source."
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam or the Krsna Book, you state that even clouds have souls. But then again they dissipate, in the rain they dissolve. Does that mean they die?
Prabhupada: No. Just like your body dissolves. Does it mean you die?
Paramahamsa: So that means the life span of a cloud is very minute or very short. Is that so?
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many living entities.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, my understanding of the evolution and the transmigration is that evolution is uni-directional, only in one direction.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Whereas the transmigration can be both, in both directions. They can go up or can go down.
Prabhupada: No. Both ways. When you say "trans," "trans" does not mean stereotyped. For lower animals, that is one side, and for human being, both sides. Because after all, the body is made according to your desire. The lower animals, they have got one kind of desire, but the human being, he has got thousands and millions of desires.
Svarupa Damodara: So the platform of transmigration from the human platform, so it works, either it can go down or it can go up.
Prabhupada: No, transmigration (is) going on. They are coming automatically, animals, to the upper level of human form. But when you come to human form, if you don't cultivate Krsna consciousness, you remain as cats and dog, then you become again cat and dog.
Svarupa Damodara: But the evolution stops when the spirit soul reaches the eternal abode in the spiritual...
Prabhupada: Yes, when he is no more entangled by a material body. Hare Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: The scientists have no information that there is evolution after human platform.
Prabhupada: That is their rascaldom. Therefore I say they are rascals. They have no knowledge; still, they proclaim they are scientists.
Paramahamsa: They think that evolution is continuing. They think that the human species will...
Prabhupada: Yes, evolution... That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Progress is going on. That progress, the ultimate progress is yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [Bg. 15.6]. That where you're going, you do not return, that is the supreme progress. Samsiddhim paramam gatah. That is the highest perfection. You read Bhagavad-gita. Everything is there. Mam upetya kaunteya punar janma na vidyate. Duhkhalayam asasvatam, napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah [Bg. 8.15]. They have no idea what is the highest perfection of human life.
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that the material body started from elements, the chemical elements.
Prabhupada: That we admit also. That we also admit. But on what basis?
Svarupa Damodara: And when the spirit soul, when the living entity reaches the human platform, then again goes back to the...
Prabhupada: Do the rascals believe in the living entity?
Svarupa Damodara: No, they don't say living entity. Bodies.
Prabhupada: Then?
Paramahamsa: Something akin to Buddhism.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Paramahamsa: The Buddhists also say that the body is like a house. You put the house together, you put the body together with chemicals. And when the bodies die, just like you take the house apart, all the wood, and then there is no more house... no more soul, no more life.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is called nirvana. And with the chemicals you can build another house. Buddhists they do not give any information of the soul. That is Buddhism. What...? Oh, wet? (the ground?)
Svarupa Damodara: No, it's dry.
Paramahamsa: There's another very interesting factor that scientists, they state that matter is, or that there is, they dispute the fact that there's one soul within the body. There's a special kind of worm, it's an earthworm, that if you cut it in half, both parts will live.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So they wonder how is it possible that if there is soul, that there could be two souls within one body?
Prabhupada: Yes, why not. Souls takes the opportunity.
Paramahamsa: Oh, it takes the opportunity of the other body, the fertile...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.
Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. According to the nature's direction I am getting body, I am giving it up, again I am desiring something, I am getting another body. This is going on. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma [Bg. 3.27]. He is a rascal. He is thinking, "I am this body." Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. This is a yantra, machine. And we are traveling many species of life, all riding on this car, given by nature. Yantrarudhani mayaya. Maya has given this vehicle, anywhere wandering, up and down, sometimes demigod, sometimes dog. This is going on. And in this wandering process, if he gets in touch with a devotee, then his real spiritual life begins. Otherwise he has to go on, rotating.
ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
[Cc. Madhya 19.151]
Svarupa Damodara: Mahaprabhu?
Prabhupada: Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. By mercy of spiritual master, the mercy of Krsna, he gets the seed of devotional service, and if he cultivates, then his life becomes successful. Otherwise he has to rotate, sometimes up, sometimes down. Sometimes this grass, sometimes lion.
Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?
Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.
Paramahamsa: If we want.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Fall down?
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta). The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That's all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."
Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: But then again there's this constant struggle with our lower nature? We are constantly fighting our desires even though we want to serve Krsna? This continues?
Prabhupada: What is that? I do not follow.
Paramahamsa: Well, like, many devotees, they experience the difficulty that although they sincerely want to love God and serve Him, yet their body is almost like another dictator within them.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means he is strongly under the grip of maya.
Paramahamsa: Even though the desire exists.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like a thief, he knows that "If I steal, I will be arrested. I will be put into jail." And he has seen that one thief, he has stolen, he is arrested. Still he commits theft. He knows everything. Why does he commit theft?
Paramahamsa: Why?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Ignorance?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada gives the example of the elephant.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Takes shower again and...
Prabhupada: Yes. Hasti-snana. Therefore, knowledge giving, that is the beginning of spiritual life. Krsna gives Arjuna, knowledge giving, that "You are not this body." This is the beginning of knowledge. What is that knowledge, all over the world? Where is that university? This preliminary knowledge which Krsna begins, Bhagavad-gita, where is that university? Svarupa Damodara, where is that chemical laboratory or university?
Svarupa Damodara: There is none in the universities.
Prabhupada: Yes. So this is the position of your education. There is no knowledge, and you are simply advertising, "Advancement of knowledge, university, PhD's, Nobel Prize holder." But they are all rascals. Fools' paradise. It is called, fools' paradise.
Svarupa Damodara: If the scientists know that we are not this body, then definitely the whole outlook will be changed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we want to do.
Paramahamsa: They don't want to admit their failure.
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. If you are a fool and if you want to pose yourself as intelligent, that is another foolishness. You cannot make progress. Stubborn dogs. If you are seeking after knowledge, you must take the right knowledge. That is intelligence. And if you want to remain in ignorance and advertise yourself that "I am man of knowledge," how much cheater you are! You are cheating yourself and cheating others. That is going on. We want to stop this.
Paramahamsa: Just like many of our devotees, we experienced when we tried to preach to our parents, because they are much older, to admit that Krsna consciousness is the right path in life, means to also admit that they have wasted their entire life.
Prabhupada: Real knowledge is to be given to the younger section. Older section, it is not possible. They will have to forget first of all, what they have learned. That they cannot. Therefore it is impossible. Therefore knowledge begins from the school children, not from the man who is going to die. (laughing) That is not... Impractical. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja said kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan: [SB 7.6.1] "Krsna consciousness should be taught from the very childhood." Not that at the time of death. That is not possible. Therefore our students, they are all young generation, they capture. These rascals, they cannot. Old fools, they cannot. There was a practical examination. One father and one daughter, both appeared for BA examination in India. The daughter passed and the father failed. It was in the newspaper. In old age they cannot take any lessons. They forget.
Krsna-kanti: Because of sense gratification or mind...
Prabhupada: Anyway, they say all... Yes. The bodily functions, intelligence...,
Svarupa Damodara: Blunt, intelligence becomes blunt.
Prabhupada: Yes, blunt. When the knife is sharp, it can cut, but if it is become blunt, then you cannot cut.
Paramahamsa: Or worn by age.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have all been described as mayayapahrta-jnanah: [Bg. 7.15] "Their real knowledge is taken away by maya." Therefore we don't give any credit to all these rascals. Although we are very small, but we don't give any credit. We frankly say, "These are rascals, fools."
Paramahamsa: After the 20th...During the Industrial Revolution in the western world....
Prabhupada: The Industrial Revolution means revolution of the sudras. That is Industrial Revolution. Increasing the number of sudras. These scientists, they are also sudras. Because they have no real knowledge. Brahmana means one who has got real knowledge. Brahma-janatiti brahmanah. And this industrial development means technologists; they are sudras.
Krsna-kanti: But they have taken the position of brahmanas in the society.
Prabhupada: No, no. They are never as... They are always working. How they can take the position of the brahmana? Brahmana's position is to teach brahmana knowledge, brahma-jnana. That is brahmana.
Paramahamsa: Prior to the growth of technology...
Prabhupada: Yes. No, there was technology. But not in such large scale. Village technology. There was a blacksmith. You want a knife. You take one piece of steel, and he will do it, phut phut phut phut, and he'll put in the fire, and everything do. And now you are manufacturing these cutleries, cutleries, in larger scale. So they are sudras. Similarly any factory, it is a combination of sudras. Kalau sudra-sambhavah: "In this age, all are sudras." Only we are trying to become brahmana. Otherwise all sudras. So therefore there is no adjustment. Just like if you have got only legs, no arms, no mouth, so what is this body?
Paramahamsa: Corpse.
Prabhupada: Corpse, yes. You require everything, full body. You require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require legs. But if you have got simply the belly and legs, then it is a dead body. It cannot work properly. The brain is lost; therefore they are mad after so much advancement of civilization. They are exactly like cats and dogs. As soon as you enter some country, dog, watchdog: "Wowf! Wowf! Why you have come? What is your position?" ("Where is your visa?"?) This is dog's business. This is dog's business. (laughter) And they have set up immigration department. But it is a dog's business, watchdog. I say it is watchdog's business. A first-class gentleman is being searched out pocket, whether you have got revolver. Cannot be trusted, all these educated rogues and thieves. So what is this advancement of civilization? It is civilization? No sober man, no intelligent man, all cats and dogs, thieves, rogues. Is that civilization? It is not civilization.
Paramahamsa: The question I have, Prabhupada is that before scientific advancement, many people would listen to, like, scriptural knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means sudras. That I have already said.
Paramahamsa: But now they listen more to scientists.
Prabhupada: That means sudra. Sudras are interested to hear from sudra.
Paramahamsa: For example in the Bible they quote that the world is flat. So therefore when they found out the world is round, they say, "Oh, scripture is false."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Scientists, they have proven the truth that the world is round. Therefore scientists...
Prabhupada: Yes. That must be, therefore the scriptures must be transcendental. Nonsense scripture, and people become nonsense. So except Vedic literature, all nonsense scripture. They are not scripture. Manufactured. This Bible was manufactured by the saint, this saint, that, according to their imagination. It was not spoken by Lord Jesus Christ. What was spoken by Jesus Christ, that they ignore: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill. Nobody is following Christian principle; neither Bible is perfect. But that, if we say, we will be shot. (laughter)
Paramahamsa: That is what they do now in the Vietnam. For God they are killing.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Paramahamsa: One of the reasons that the Vietnamese war was beginning was because Communists, being atheists, it was a fight between the theists and the atheists. This was an excuse given.
Prabhupada: Yes. But that is quite all right. We also prepare to kill atheists.
Paramahamsa: But preach first.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: They don't preach.
Prabhupada: That is, killing is also preaching. If I kill your ignorance, that is also killing. That is also killing. Not... Killing does not mean that everyone has to take the sword.
Paramahamsa: A new method of warfare.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is always there. By argument, by knowledge.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a little wet.
Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, when you are not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions, for example, on questions that may arise?
Prabhupada: Well, the questions... Answers are there in my books.
Paramahamsa: Other than that, for example, that we would ask you in...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: Do you direct us also through the heart? Besides the Paramatma?
Prabhupada: If your heart is pure. Everything depends on purity. Whether there. What is this? Sacrificial arena? (laughter)
Paramahamsa: For children, I think. No? For cooking, yeah. (pause)
Prabhupada: (About tennis players) How people are kept into ignorance. Life is so valuable, and they are wasting time in that way. Life is valuable, how life should be utilized, what is the object of life -- they do not know anything.
Svarupa Damodara: Without knowing that the soul is eternal, everybody would be acting like this.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is... Bodily concept of life means animal life. The animal does not know. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-kharah. Go means cows, and kharah means ass. One who is in the, under bodily concept of life, he is no better than animals. So when the animal talks of knowledge, an intelligent man laughs. That is our position. The animals, they are talking of knowledge.
Paramahamsa: At least, the animals live by certain codes. They do not kill unless necessary. They only eat when necessary, whereas man, he kills unnecessarily, eats unnecessarily. So forgetting God, we are even lower than animals.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we suffer also, more than the animals. (pause) So Krsna consciousness movement is not a bogus religious sentimental movement. It is a scientific movement. So now it is up to you to prove this. Then you will be actually Krsna conscious. (pause) [break]
Svarupa Damodara: So they were saying that everything in the universe is just happening by chance.
Prabhupada: So you are writing book by chance. Then what is the value of your book?
Karandhara: The book is also by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone can write chance, so what is your credit? Anything nonsense can be written.
Svarupa Damodara: Monod is his name. He got Nobel Prize in 1965 from... He is Frenchman, physiologist. And his, chance and necessity about life, he said everything started by chance. So he is saying that by chance these chemicals combined together, forming these molecules, the basic molecules...
Prabhupada: But wherefrom the molecules came?
Svarupa Damodara: According to him it is simply by chance.
Prabhupada: Chance. So everything is chance. So what is the necessity of your writing book?
Svarupa Damodara: Then necessity arises, so these molecules re-orient, change as a fashion because of necessity.
Prabhupada: Why? If everything is by chance, where is the necessity? What is the meaning? Let the chance take place. Why necessity?
Paramahamsa: He is hoping for another Nobel Prize by his chance.
Prabhupada: All fools' paradise. That's all. Why do they send their children to school? Why not let them grow by chance? Is there any excuse if I say, "By chance I have violated this rule?" Is that the cause of excuse?
Svarupa Damodara: That's because of my ignorance.
Prabhupada: That is chance. That is chance. Because I am ignorant, therefore there is chance.
Paramahamsa: It would be just as stupid as saying a beautiful instrument like a car was made by chance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is the most regrettable condition, that these rascals are getting recognition; talking all foolish, and they are getting recognition.
Svarupa Damodara: It's so strange. When I read that book. He defines the difference between the living and the non-living by a term called teleonomy. I tried to find out in the dictionary and I couldn't find any word like that. But I understood that what he meant was...
Prabhupada: Hyerpolosvel. (Prabhupada's mythical scientific word) (laughter)
Krsna-kanti: He invents his own word jugglery.
Svarupa Damodara: He was trying to present the difference between organic beings and the non-organic beings. So he goes in such a round about fashion just to differentiate.
Prabhupada: Petitio principii. This logic is called petitio principii. He has to prove something, but he is taking his premises from that something. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course -- May 13, 1973, Los
Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
