Prabhupada: varnasrama-dharma, four
varnas and four asrama -- brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra -- so the Vedic
culture means to execute the varnasrama-dharma. Now we are known as Hindus. The
Hindu word is not to be found... [break] A little disturbance will mar the
situation. So, Vedic culture means this varnasrama-dharma. The Muhammadans from
the other side of river Sindhu, they have called us Hindu. Actually, this word
"Hindu" you'll not find any Vedic scripture. So to accept this
position-brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa -- is compulsory. It is
not that one has to take sannyasa as a fashion. No. Actually it is absolutely
necessary for any person at the last stage of life to accept sannyasa. This
Ramananda Raya also retired from the government service. He met Caitanya
Mahaprabhu, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised him that "Now you retire from your
governorship and come to Jagannatha Puri, your home, and let us talk together
about spiritual life." So in this way he retired. So all the associates of
Caitanya Mahaprabhu-sri-rupa sanatana bhatta-raghunatha sri-jiva gopala-bhatta
dasa-raghunatha-Six Gosvamis, the direct disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they
were all in renounced order of life. Then? Read. You read. You'll
hear.
Indian man (2): "Although the Gosvamis were very aristocratic, they became mendicant just to deliver the fallen souls according to the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."
Prabhupada: About Gosvamis, Srinivasa Acarya, he has written, tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau. (child talking) (aside:) Please take out. Tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim. They were ministers. Naturally their associates were very, very big zamindars and rich men, asesa-mandala-pati-srenim. Mandala-pati means leaders, social, political. So, gave up their company. Explain. Why? Tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau. Dina-ganesakau, the poor mass of people... We are thinking that we are advancing, but actually we are becoming poverty-stricken. So this very word is used, dina-ganesakau karunaya. So this time is always. Unless the social leaders, the leaders of the society, they take care of the mass of people to educate them, dina-ganesakau karunaya, if they do not become compassionate to the poor mass of people, who will deliver them?
They are poor because they have no spiritual conception of life. So that situation is always existing; therefore it is the duty of the leaders of the society, especially of the brahmanas and ksatriyas, to take sannyasa and preach Krsna consciousness to the mass of people. Dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau. Now we have got experience that many big, big leaders in political field... We have seen this noncooperation movement. They also took sannyasa practically. But they could not live long because they could not tolerate the position of renouncement. But about the Gosvamis it is said,
tyaktva turnam asesa-mandala-pati-srenim sada tuccha-vat
bhutva dina-ganesakau karunaya kaupina-kanthasritau
gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-
vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau...
There must be engagement, proper engagement. If the engagement is not Krsna consciousness, then this so-called sannyasa will be failure. Practically in Calcutta there was a big barrister, C. R. Das, he renounced everything, but he could not live long. Very shortly he died. [ ...was their position. [break] Sannyasa means to renounce for the Supreme, sannyasa. Sat-nyasa. If one takes to Krsna consciousness and if he renounces family life and preaches Krsna consciousness, then he will be happy, and the persons amongst whom he will preach, they will be happy. We have seen practically, many, many big, big sannyasis, they gave up this world -- brahma satya jagan mithya: "This world is mithya. Let me take sannyasa." But unfortunately, they could not stand in that position. After few years they come down again in social work, in political work. That means they could not understand what is Brahman. That is stated, confirmed in the sastra, that
ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas
tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah
aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah
patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah
[SB 10.2.32]
Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa. Ye aravindaksa. Aravindaksa is Krsna. "Persons who are thinking that 'I have become liberated,' vimukta-manina, they're actually... They're not mukta. Therefore," aruhya krcchrena param padam, "although they underwent very severe austerities and achieved the position in nirvisesa-brahma," aruhya krcchrena param padam [SB 10.2.32], "but because they could not understand, my Lord, Your lotus feet, they," patanty adho, "they fall down." Just like in the modern age they are going very high by aeroplane or sputnik, but because they do not get a shelter in either the moon planet or Mars planet, they again come down. So simply speculative knowledge, philosophical knowledge, will not give us actual shelter in the nirvisesa, nirakara-brahman. Absolute Truth we can realize in three stages. This is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam,
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
Yes. The brahmanu-bhuti is simply negation of this material world. Brahma satya jagan mithya. But brahmanu-bhuti is not final. We are part and parcel of Krsna, sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. So simply understanding of our eternity-aham brahmasmi -- is not sufficient. So that is only appreciation of the eternity portion. And then, if one further makes progress, he... Paramatma. Paramatma means cit, cid-amsa. And lastly, unless we come to the shelter of the lotus feet of Krsna, there is no ananda. And every one of us-anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). God is also anandamaya. We, being part and parcel of God, we are also seeking after ananda. So you cannot get permanent ananda either by Brahman realization or Paramatma realization. Unless you come to God realization, Personality of Godhead, there is no ananda.
ananda-cinmaya-rasa-
tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih
goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.37]
Govinda, Krsna, is ananda-cinmaya-rasa. He is in the ananda cinmaya. His ananda is not jara-rasa. It is cinmaya-rasa. We should not understand or misunderstand Krsna's lila is just like ordinary human activity. Srila Jiva Gosvami has described this Krsna's ananda, that,
radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad
ekatmanav api bhuvi pura deha-bhedam gatau tau
sri-caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam...
[Cc. Adi 1.5]
So we should understand Krsna, how He is ananda-cinmaya vigraha. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is ananda-cinmaya vigraha, combination of hladini sakti, Srimati Radharani, and Krsna together. Therefore the Vaisnava sings, sri-krsna-caitanya radha-krsna nahe anya. Radha-krsna nahe anya. If we take shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then there is possibility to understand the Krsna science.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to impregnate or push this movement throughout the world through the mercy of Sri Krsna Caitanya. And actually it is happening. By taking shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, these Europeans and Americans, although they are supposed to be born in mleccha, yavana family, they are taking Krsna consciousness so seriously. Otherwise it is very difficult to understand Krsna.
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascid vetti mam tattvatah
[Bg. 7.3]
Out of many many millions of persons, one is interested how to become perfect. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi means to understand one's own position. Therefore we request everyone to take shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to understand Krsna. Srila Rupa Gosvami he has given his direction,
namo maha-vadanyaya
krsna-prema-pradaya te
krsnaya krsna-caitanya
namne gaura-tvise namah
[Cc. Madhya 19.53]
Idea is Srila Rupa Gosvami, offering his obeisances to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, namo maha-vadanyaya: "The greatest munificent charitable person because You are giving Krsna-prema. Nobody can understand Krsna, but You are giving Krsna-prema." Namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te krsnaya krsna-caitanya [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. "You are Krsna. You have appeared again as Krsna Caitanya. Therefore I offer my obeisances." Similarly Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, who was the learned scholar, pandita, in the assembly of Maharaja Prataparudra... [break] ...sabha-pandita. So he also has written many verses. One of them is that,
vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-
siksartham ekah purusah puranah
sri-krsna-caitanya-sarira-
krpambudhir yas tam aham prapadye
[Cc. Madhya 6.254]
"This Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the same person." Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti. "In order to teach Krsna consciousness, He has now appeared as Krsna Caitanya." Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti yoga-siksartham ekah purusah puranah [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. Sasvata-purana. Krsna is the Purana. Nava-yauvanam ca. In the Brahma-samhita it is said, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. He's the oldest person, adi-purusa, but nava-yauvana. So in every way you'll find that if we want to understand Krsna, then we have to take shelter of this Krsna's renounced order of life in the form of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
So Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu's one of the confidential devotees was an Oriya, this Ramananda Raya and Sikhi Mahiti. So it is a great opportunity for the Oriyas to understand Krsna consciousness science through the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We are discussing the talks between Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya. You'll kindly hear and take advantage of it and be benefited. [break] So we can, if they require, any question-answer. [break]
Guest (1): ...Krsna consciousness in grhastha asrama?
Prabhupada: They follow Sri Ramananda Raya. He was a grhastha. He was a responsible government officer. Still, he was the best disciple of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Ramananda Raya, while talking with Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he was feeling little shamefulness because Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a great sannyasi and coming from a very respectable brahmana family, and Ramananda Raya, he belonged to the Kharan(?) caste of Orissa, and he was grhastha, at the same time in government service. So he was feeling little shamefulness, that "I am teaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu." So when he was feeling like that, Caitanya Mahaprabhu encouraged him,
kiba vipra kiba sudra nyasi kene naya
yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]
"You become a sannyasi or you become a grhastha or you are a brahmana or a sudra. The Krsna consciousness has nothing to do with these material things. If you know actually what is Krsna, then you can become guru." Another place also, Krsna, er, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said that
yei bhaje sei bada abhakta hina chara
krsna-bhajane te nahi jati-kuladi-vicara
[Cc. Antya 4.67]
"Anyone who is a devotee, he is great, and who is not devotee, he may declare himself as great, but he is the most fallen." In the devotional service there is no such distinction as jati and kula. So if you follow -- the example is there in your country, Ramananda Raya -- then wherever you are, you are exalted. Narottama dasa Thakura, he has also said -- he is acarya-grhe va vanete thake ha gauranga bale dake narottama mage tara sanga: "It doesn't matter whether he is a grhastha or he's a sannyasi." Vanete means vanaprastha, sannyasi. "Wherever he may be, if he's actually a perfect devotee of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I want his association. Never mind." Grhe va vanete thake ha gauranga bale dake narottama mage tara sanga.
So Krsna bhajana is so magnanimous, so exalted, in any position you can become the greatest guru, provided you follow the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. [break] ...says how one can become perfect. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. Simply think of Krsna, this chanting of Hare Krsna mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare... So you remain grhastha. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said, namasraya kari thakaha apana kaje. In whatever occupation you are, remain there. There is no need of changing. But namasraya kari. If you remain a grhastha, what is your loss if you chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra? And if there is gain, why don't you take it? Simple thing. And Krsna also says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, mam evaisyasi asamsayah [Bg. 18.65]. These four things will get you back to home, back to Godhead. What is that? Simply think of Krsna. But if from the very beginning you want to understand the meaning of Krsna -- "Krsna is nirakara. He has no hand, He has no leg" -- then how you'll think of Krsna? You have to give up all this nonsense idea. Then wherever you live, you will be perfect by Krsna consciousness. [break] ...Kali-yuga the special advantage is that people cannot become very much advanced in spiritual life, but for Kali-yuga there is a special concession. Kalau nasty nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha. Harer nama harer nama harer nama iva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. And Srimad-Bhagavatam also, it is confirmed, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sanga param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. So you remain grhastha. It is now difficult to give up grhastha life. But don't be merged into this black hole. Don't make black hole tragedy. Be alive, take to Krsna consciousness, and you'll be happy. So there is no distinction in Krsna-bhajana whether one is a grhastha or a sannyasi. He must take the science. Then he will be all right.
Guest (3) (Indian man): ...without taking diksa from the guru also utters the name of Lord Krsna with devotion and...
Prabhupada: There is no devotion unless you go to a guru. Forget it. Adau gurvasrayam. First thing is, first business, is to accept a bona fide guru. Otherwise there is no devotion. It is simply false imitation. This is the injunction of Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu. Adau gurvasrayam: "Your first business is to approach bona fide guru and take his asraya." Otherwise there is no devotion. That has been the defect in the modern society. They imagine. This business should be given up. He must follow. Sadhu-marganugamanam, which is prescribed by the sadhu, guru, you have to accept that. You cannot manufacture your own way.
Guest (3): The world is so vast, and people who are living in this world and also wishing to attain God or remember God or say about the God... Also the namaskaram is, Gurudeva said, that, mentioned in the Gita, that all these are fruitless, the soul which is remembering God either in the form of Krsna, but he has not met a guru. Because to get a real guru is a real occasion. It doesn't happen in the case of everyone. One in million get a chance to get a real spiritual guide. There are so many in the name of spiritual guide. And he will false pray because his inner soul hankers and inner soul thinks that "This is my guru, and somehow I will accept whatever he says." And the ultimate aim and objective is to love God or to recite his name or surrender to Him.
Prabhupada: This question has been answered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu while He was teaching Srila Rupa Gosvami.
ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
[Cc. Madhya 19.151]
The guru word is there. Guru Krsna. If you are actually hankering after Krsna -- Krsna is within yourself -- He will give you a guru. He will give you a guru. Guru-krsna-krpaya. But we must be fortunate to get real guru. If I am unfortunate, I'll not get a guru. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]? Mali hana se bija kariya aropana. In this way you'll find in the Caitanya-caritamrta. So even Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He accepted guru, Isvara Puri. He is Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna Himself. As Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya said that,
vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-
siksartham ekah purusah puranah
sri-krsna-caitanya sarira dhari...
[Cc. Madhya 6.254]
He's the purusa Purana, Krsna, but now He has appeared as Krsna Caitanya. So he also accepted guru, what to speak of our... Krsna also accepted guru. So how you will get the ultimate goal of life without accepting guru? Why do you manufacture this idea? There is no need of manufacturing this. You have to follow. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you manufacture, then you'll be cheated. Don't do this. That has become a fashion, that you manufacture your own way of service. That is not possible. Therefore Rupa Gosvami stresses, adau-gurvasrayam: "The first business is that you must find out a bona fide guru." Then other things.
Guest (4) (Indian man): Gurudeva said the only aim of human being is to surrender to Sri Krsna, to the lotus feet of Sri Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): In India especially, there are so many temples and gods and goddesses...
Prabhupada: That has been described in the Bhagavad-gita. Those who are hrta-jnanah, less intelligent, all these gods and goddess are for them. Hrta-jnanah. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante anya devatah [Bg. 7.20]. "Those who are after other demigods, they are hrta-jnanah." Hrta-jnanah means they have got little knowledge -- that is taken away by maya. Mayayapahrta-jnana. These words are there. So this demigod worship is for the less intelligent class of men, not the actual intellectuals. Actual intellectual is he-bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So he's actual intelligent, when he surrenders to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. So the demigod worship is recommended for the less intelligent class of men. Otherwise, to surrender to Krsna is the highest stage of perfection.
Guest (5) (Indian man): Sir, what is the difference between renunciation and surrender?
Prabhupada: Yes. Renunciation is the beginning of this material world. You cannot take, you cannot surrender to Krsna, unless you renounce this ma.... If you have got material necessities... Sarva-dharman parityajva. Krsna says, "Absolute surrender." And if you want material necessities, then you have got so many dharmas -- this dharma, that dharma, social dharma, family dharma, national dharma, community dharma, and so on, so on. But Krsna demands, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. So it is not very easy thing. Therefore renunciation and surrender. Surrender means full renunciation, no reservation. And renunciation means you renounce something and keep something. That is difference.
Guest (5): Supposing any person, he renounces everything, his material property, and if he just came to Krsna consciousness. Can he live?
Prabhupada: We are living. You can see practically. We have got more than one hundred centers, and we are maintaining at least ten thousand men, just like these Europeans. And you have seen our opulence. We are advertised as fabulously rich. You can see here also. We have got at least four cars here. Who has got four cars? Don't you see how we are living?
Guest (5): Sir, what I meant... Supposing...
Prabhupada: No. Your question is that... We are living very opulently because we are surrendered to Krsna. That is point. So if you come to us you will also live very opulently. Surrender. Do that by practical seeing. We have no anxiety. Do you know what is our expenditure? In New York we are spending twelve lakhs of rupees per month. Only in New York. Similarly, in Los Angeles we have got huge expenditure. And our income is also, daily, five lakhs. You can see. Take our account. Audit. People do not touch as soon as one hears, "Oh, it is a religious group." And we are selling religious books, this Bhagavata and Srimad Bhagavad-gita, six lakhs of rupees daily. Can you imagine?
Guest (6) (Indian man): Where is this consciousness of surrender come in human life? At what stage it can come?
Prabhupada: At any moment. You must be prepared. Krsna said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you have got intelligence, you can do it immediately. Where is the difficulty? But you'll not do it. They have done it, these young boys. They have no other business. And Krsna assures, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah: Don't hesitate. But we are hesitating. So there is no surrender. So all right, you remain under the clutches of maya and suffer. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Maya is very strong. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti As soon as you surrender to Krsna immediately you are mukta. Immediately, instantly. It is in your hand. You follow Krsna's instruction, do the needful, you are mukta. Chant Hare Krsna
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada! (end)
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
