December 2, 1973
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Prabhupada: ...one is yogi. Karmi,
jnani, yogi or bhakta. What is the difference between karmis, jnanis, yogis and
bhakta?Hrdayananda: Karmi wants to enjoy the gross senses, the jnani wants
to enjoy the subtle mind, mental speculation, the yogi wants to manipulate the
universe, mystic powers,...
Prabhupada: Material power.
Hrdayananda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmi, jnani, yogi, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmis are the lowest of the unhappies, jnanis are little advanced, yogis are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees. Na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4]. This is bhakta. [break] ...siddhi-kami sakali asanta. Bhukti means karmi, and mukti means jnani. And siddhi, asta-siddhi, magic power, mystic power. That is called siddhi. Those who are practicing yoga, if they are actually yogis, they can have asta-siddhi. Anima, laghima. They can become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. Mahima, prapti. They can get anything they like. A yogi can get... Suppose if you want a pomegranate from Kabul, he will get immediately. Yes. That is yogi. As if he is snatching from the tree, yes. Prapti-siddhi, isita. They can force their influence upon anyone. Isita, vasita. Yogis can hypnotize you. As he will say, you will act. As he will say, you will act. These yogis do that. They take something nonsense, "Now take gold," and you will think it is gold. Just like magician do.
Hrdayananda: Hypnotist.
Prabhupada: Hypnotist. They create heaps of money, the magician, I have seen it, all false.
Hrdayananda: Like in the Bhagavatam, Arjuna said like money created by magic word.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Prapti-siddhi. Now we are flying by aeroplane. A yogi can fly without any instrument. As Durvasa Muni, he went even Vaikuntha-loka. Not Vaikuntha-loka. Within this planet, there is one planet where, Svetadvipa, Lord Visnu lives. He went there and saw Lord Visnu personally to request him to save him. He refused, "No, I cannot. You go to Ambarisa Maharaja, beg pardon of him. If he pardons, then you will be saved." So to a devotee, innocent devotee, he had to fall down on his lotus feet, "Please save me." So what is the power of yogi?
Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Krsna?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Because Visnu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Maharaja Ambarisa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaisnava. When he begged, humble, "Maharaja Ambarisa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Visnu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Krsna said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gita, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gita. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Krsna. Krsna wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Krsna says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Bali Mardana: You are more merciful than any of them, Prabhupada. You have come to the western countries.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Yes, Vaisnava is, if one man is real Vaisnava. Just like see Jesus Christ. It is said that he took everyone's sins and he was crucified. So how much merciful he is, just see. But these rascals have taken, that "Let us go on committing sinful activities, and Christ has taken contract. He will suffer. And we shall do this." Such rascals. You see. They say that "Our Christian religion is so good that even we commit sinful acts, Christ will suffer, we shall not suffer." Just see.
Bali Mardana: I was reading yesterday in the Newsweek that now the priests, they are dating with women and having sex.
Prabhupada: They must have because they have no spiritual knowledge. Anyone who is not spiritually advanced, he cannot avoid the sex.
Hrdayananda: You said yesterday, adanta-gobhih.
Prabhupada: Yes. Big, big yogis, they fell victim to sex. Visvamitra Muni, many other instances! Saubhari, Saubhari Muni. He was meditating within the water, and some fish just, what is called, licked up, his gender.
Bali Mardana: Copulating.
Prabhupada: Copulating, yes. And he felt sex desire, that itching sensation. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham. Kanduyanam means itching. It is actually itching. The sastra says it is kanduyanam. Kanduyanam means itching, the scratching, the itching. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham.
Devotee: Our scientist.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hrdayananda: Only one scientist.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22]. Feeling all right?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. (indistinct) (pause) [break] Yes. I wanted to know the... So there are five kinds of air, material air, and the spirit soul is floating in the five kinds of air. I want to know these different functional activities of the five kinds of air.
Prabhupada: Yes, that also we admit. There are five kinds of air. Prana, apana, like that. There are... By the yogis, by breathing exercise, they control the five kinds of air. So that also we admit.
Svarupa Damodara: No, the scientists, they do not understand the five kinds of air.
Prabhupada: They do not know so many things. What they will understand? Because they do not understand, therefore it has to be rejected. They are fools. What do they understand? Superfluous. Simply they see something outward. Just like they see the tree, but what do they understand about the seed? What do they understand? The tree is coming from the seed, but what do they understand about the seed? They see the tree, that's all. Like a child sees the tree and "Oh, it is a big tree." But intelligent man sees the seed.
Svarupa Damodara: They also see that the original seed the embryo is, remains dormant.
Prabhupada: That's all right. How it is made? That they do not know, how subtle things are being done... (aside) We can go this way. That is their ignorance. They do not know subtle things. Simply gross manifestation attracts their attention. That's all. Jada-drsti. It is called jada-drsti, material vision. No sukha-drsti. Every, every field, they have no finer introspection. Simply gross. They deal with gross things. Just like the same example: Here is a tree, but it is a fact, this tree has grown from a small seed. So what do they know about the seed, how it is manufactured, how it has got the potency of bringing out such a big tree? Not only that, in that seed there will be millions of fruits, and each fruit there will be millions of seeds, and each seed contains again millions of trees. Where is your science? Where is that potency?
Devotee: Is a seed conscious, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Everything is conscious. First of all, even gross manifestation we cannot understand, what to speak of consciousness. That is different thing. According to our philosophy, everything has got consciousness. Just like this tree has got consciousness.
Svarupa Damodara: The scientists also say that they have consciousness.
Prabhupada: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, that verse in the Gita, that nityah sarva-gatah sthanuh. That verse in the Bhagavad-gita that living beings are everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes, sarva-ga. Acalo 'yam sthanur sarva-gah. Nitya. Nityah sthanur acalo 'yam. That is described. The seeds are everywhere. Just like they are trying to come out from this. You will find sometimes fracture, grass is coming. As soon as there is opportunity, they want to express the consciousness. Those who fall down... ksine punye punah martya-lokam visanti. They come with waters, rain water, and falls down on the ground and become grass. Then gradually, evolution.
Hrdayananda: That's terrible.
Prabhupada: Yes. A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino... How subtle laws are working, what do they know the scientists? Therefore their so-called knowledge is mayaya apahrta-jnanah, actual knowledge is taken away by maya. And they are thinking, "I am very learned man, scholar." But actual knowledge is taken away. mayaya apahrta-jnanah. Why? Asuri-bhava. They won't accept God. Therefore they are all fools. In spite of all these degrees, they are all fools. Therefore they cannot explain everything very nicely. "In future we shall see."
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that "We are beginning to learn more and more..."
Prabhupada: Yes. That means that you are fool. While you are in the process of learning, that means you are fool. Say directly that we are fool. That is gentlemanliness. You do not know; still, you pose, "I am, we are scholar, we are scientist. Give us Nobel Prize." You see. This is going on. We don't want Nobel Prize. We are giving the topmost knowledge. We don't hanker after Nobel Prize. But they give false knowledge and hanker after Nobel Prize. Just see. Their real aim is how to get the Nobel Prize by cheating. That is their real aim. How an educated man, learned man will cheat? So therefore my Guru Maharaja used to say that "This modern human society, or always, it is a society of the cheaters and the cheated." Somebody is cheating and somebody's cheated, and they have combined together to make a so-called civilization.
Karandhara: Prabhupada, you know the scientist you quoted in Easy Journey? You quoted an article from the newspaper in Easy Journey about the two scientists who were studying anti-matter?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Karandhara: Well, about a year ago another scientist came forward, and he charged that those two scientists actually stole the knowledge from him. They were working with him, and they stole it to win Nobel Prize.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many scientists like that. Just like this Marconi, he stole the knowledge from Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. You know that?
Svarupa Damodara: I have heard this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jagadisha Candra... I was present. He said that "This man cheated me. I talked with him. Next morning he published the theory."
Karandhara: About radio?
Prabhupada: No, newspaper. Because both of them were friends, scientists, they talked. And he took the clue, immediately published the theory.
Bali Mardana: Which theory was that?
Prabhupada: That Marconi wireless.
Bali Mardana: Wireless, radio.
Prabhupada: Yes, radio. That was Jagadisha Candra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadisha Candra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad-gita was spoken five thousand years ago. They bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom.
Jayadvaita: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad-gita is only two thousand years old, like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They will never accept it.
Yasomatinandana: One stupid guy was saying that there is some quotation in the Bhagavad-gita from Book of John.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is another rascaldom. Tava carjuna.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, what about the heart transplant? The spirit soul is within the heart, but when the... in the medical science nowadays, the old heart can be replaced by a new one. So what happens with the spirit soul with the old one?
Prabhupada: But that does not mean that new ones will increase their duration of life. That is our challenge.
Svarupa Damodara: But the personality is changed?
Prabhupada: No.
Svarupa Damodara: Why not?
Prabhupada: Why changed? Suppose if I sit from this chair to this chair, why I am changed? I can change my seat. It does not mean that I am changed.
Karandhara: Change the heart also. The heart can change.
Prabhupada: The heart is seat, sitting place.
Svarupa Damodara: But the new heart had spirit soul from the new one.
Prabhupada: Spirit soul, new or old there is. But if you can prove by changing the heart you can increase the duration of life, then you can catch the spirit soul.
Karandhara: That they're not able to do.
Prabhupada: That is their nonsense.
Bali Mardana: None of them have lived very long.
Prabhupada: No, they cannot be. Because by karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1], by superior arrangement, karmana, you have got this body. So you have to live within this body certain age. So if you change the body, new, that doesn't mean you prolong your life. That is not possible. It is the duration of life, that is considered. They are thinking by changing the heart they will increase the duration of life. That is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is some sort of artificial transmigration?
Prabhupada: Yes, like that. That transmigration taken... That is already explained in Bhagavad-gita. Just like a baby becomes a child, child becomes boy, boy becomes youth, like that. Transmigration it is going on continually. This is another type of transmigration. So it is a fact that by changing the heart the duration is not...?
Bali Mardana: No, most of them, they have lived, a very short times. But still is it a fact that the soul is transplanted from one body to another body?
Prabhupada: That can be done, yes. Sometimes yogis, they can perform that better body, he transfers himself into that body. Just Sankaracarya did, yes.
Karandhara: What they do, though, they wait till someone's dying or dead, and immediately after they die, they take the heart. From somebody who had the weak heart they transplant, change the heart.
Prabhupada: So what...? There is no benefit.
Karandhara: But that does not mean that the soul from the old heart, or the new heart is being changed into the new body.
Bali Mardana: The soul has already left. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life. But that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality. Huh?
Bali Mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart... After the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul, that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in.
Prabhupada: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like.
Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is a place.
Bali Mardana: Now it's very clear. [break]
Prabhupada: Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. There is superior overlooking. That is Krsna, anumanta, upadrasta. Upadrasta anumanta.
Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much...
Prabhupada: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunadi. It is stated in the Bhagavata. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Tad vayasa-tirtham. Vayasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... [break] grham andha-kupam, atma-patam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhagavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacari, become brahmacari. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?
Svarupa Damodara: Then how to continue the species?
Prabhupada: Why you will continue? You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it?
Svarupa Damodara: Because that is the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Krsna conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Maya is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunadi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.
Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad-gita that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out.
Hrdayananda: He said like putting gas on the fire.
Prabhupada: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, grhastha life is allowed, not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible.
Svarupa Damodara: But, Srila Prabhupada, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex? It's called asexual reproduction.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Oh yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill...
Svarupa Damodara: We cannot check reproduction.
Prabhupada: No, how can you check? There are so many living entities. They have come to this material world to enjoy. So the reproduction must go on. Just like you cannot stop the jail. You come out, but another is ready to enter it. That is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is within this material platform that we develop the consciousness by which...
Prabhupada: That was answered by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. One of His devotee, Vasudeva Datta, he said, "Sir, You have come. You take all the living entities of this universe and release them from this life. And if You think that they are so sinful, they cannot be, then give their all sins to me. But You take them." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Suppose if I take this universe, the all living entities, do you think the business will be finished? This universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds." (laughs) So from the bag of mustard seeds, if you take one mustard seed, what is the loss there? So this cannot be stopped. So anantaya kalpate. There are so many, unlimited number of living entities. So this will go on.
Yasomatinandana: You said in the Bhagavatam that the material world is like a correction house for the living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So everybody should develop Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. (Srila Prabhupada gets into car) Krsna consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] And this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by farther entrapment. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava. Jada-vidya, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of maya. Why? Now anitya samsara, cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows. He will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be, how we can become immortal. The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words. Therefore he is ass. Jibake karaye gadha. This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song. Anitya samsara, this temporary world, he is attracted by this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method, we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death. And we are happy." That means you are becoming... This material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses. [break] (end)
Prabhupada: Material power.
Hrdayananda: And a devotee has no material desires. (He wants) to serve Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. And unless one is factually desireless, he cannot be happy. The karmi, jnani, yogi, they are all full of desires. Therefore they are unhappy. Karmis are the lowest of the unhappies, jnanis are little advanced, yogis are little more advanced, and the perfection is the bhakta, devotees. Na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va jagad-isa kamaye [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4]. This is bhakta. [break] ...siddhi-kami sakali asanta. Bhukti means karmi, and mukti means jnani. And siddhi, asta-siddhi, magic power, mystic power. That is called siddhi. Those who are practicing yoga, if they are actually yogis, they can have asta-siddhi. Anima, laghima. They can become smaller than the smallest, heavier than the heaviest. Mahima, prapti. They can get anything they like. A yogi can get... Suppose if you want a pomegranate from Kabul, he will get immediately. Yes. That is yogi. As if he is snatching from the tree, yes. Prapti-siddhi, isita. They can force their influence upon anyone. Isita, vasita. Yogis can hypnotize you. As he will say, you will act. As he will say, you will act. These yogis do that. They take something nonsense, "Now take gold," and you will think it is gold. Just like magician do.
Hrdayananda: Hypnotist.
Prabhupada: Hypnotist. They create heaps of money, the magician, I have seen it, all false.
Hrdayananda: Like in the Bhagavatam, Arjuna said like money created by magic word.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Prapti-siddhi. Now we are flying by aeroplane. A yogi can fly without any instrument. As Durvasa Muni, he went even Vaikuntha-loka. Not Vaikuntha-loka. Within this planet, there is one planet where, Svetadvipa, Lord Visnu lives. He went there and saw Lord Visnu personally to request him to save him. He refused, "No, I cannot. You go to Ambarisa Maharaja, beg pardon of him. If he pardons, then you will be saved." So to a devotee, innocent devotee, he had to fall down on his lotus feet, "Please save me." So what is the power of yogi?
Devotee: Is the pure devotee more merciful than Krsna?
Prabhupada: Oh yes, yes. Because Visnu could not excuse him, but as soon as he came to Maharaja Ambarisa, fell down, and "You take all my assets of pious activities. You be saved immediately." That is Vaisnava. When he begged, humble, "Maharaja Ambarisa, you save me, I am in danger." "Yes, you take all my pious activities' result. You be saved immediately." That is devotee. Visnu refused, "No, I cannot give you protection." Therefore he is more merciful, although he was attacked, he was harassed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was merciful, "Let them enjoy. I don't want to kill them." Krsna said, "You must kill. You must kill. Why you are deviating from your path? You must kill." Therefore he taught him Bhagavad-gita, just to induce him to kill. But he was merciful, "No, they have done so much wrong to me, never mind. They are my relatives. I excuse. I don't want to fight." Yes. This is Bhagavad-gita. You see? Arjuna is more merciful than Krsna. Krsna wanted to see them all killed because they were, I mean to say, offender to the devotee. Last time, Krsna says, "Arjuna, you fight or not fight, it is already settled. They are not going back home. They will be killed here. If you like, you take the credit. That's all. It is already settled." Then Arjuna understood that "My Lord is so persistent. (laughter) Why shall I resist Him? All right, I will do what He says."
Bali Mardana: You are more merciful than any of them, Prabhupada. You have come to the western countries.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Yes, Vaisnava is, if one man is real Vaisnava. Just like see Jesus Christ. It is said that he took everyone's sins and he was crucified. So how much merciful he is, just see. But these rascals have taken, that "Let us go on committing sinful activities, and Christ has taken contract. He will suffer. And we shall do this." Such rascals. You see. They say that "Our Christian religion is so good that even we commit sinful acts, Christ will suffer, we shall not suffer." Just see.
Bali Mardana: I was reading yesterday in the Newsweek that now the priests, they are dating with women and having sex.
Prabhupada: They must have because they have no spiritual knowledge. Anyone who is not spiritually advanced, he cannot avoid the sex.
Hrdayananda: You said yesterday, adanta-gobhih.
Prabhupada: Yes. Big, big yogis, they fell victim to sex. Visvamitra Muni, many other instances! Saubhari, Saubhari Muni. He was meditating within the water, and some fish just, what is called, licked up, his gender.
Bali Mardana: Copulating.
Prabhupada: Copulating, yes. And he felt sex desire, that itching sensation. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham. Kanduyanam means itching. It is actually itching. The sastra says it is kanduyanam. Kanduyanam means itching, the scratching, the itching. Kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha-duhkham.
Devotee: Our scientist.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hrdayananda: Only one scientist.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22]. Feeling all right?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. (indistinct) (pause) [break] Yes. I wanted to know the... So there are five kinds of air, material air, and the spirit soul is floating in the five kinds of air. I want to know these different functional activities of the five kinds of air.
Prabhupada: Yes, that also we admit. There are five kinds of air. Prana, apana, like that. There are... By the yogis, by breathing exercise, they control the five kinds of air. So that also we admit.
Svarupa Damodara: No, the scientists, they do not understand the five kinds of air.
Prabhupada: They do not know so many things. What they will understand? Because they do not understand, therefore it has to be rejected. They are fools. What do they understand? Superfluous. Simply they see something outward. Just like they see the tree, but what do they understand about the seed? What do they understand? The tree is coming from the seed, but what do they understand about the seed? They see the tree, that's all. Like a child sees the tree and "Oh, it is a big tree." But intelligent man sees the seed.
Svarupa Damodara: They also see that the original seed the embryo is, remains dormant.
Prabhupada: That's all right. How it is made? That they do not know, how subtle things are being done... (aside) We can go this way. That is their ignorance. They do not know subtle things. Simply gross manifestation attracts their attention. That's all. Jada-drsti. It is called jada-drsti, material vision. No sukha-drsti. Every, every field, they have no finer introspection. Simply gross. They deal with gross things. Just like the same example: Here is a tree, but it is a fact, this tree has grown from a small seed. So what do they know about the seed, how it is manufactured, how it has got the potency of bringing out such a big tree? Not only that, in that seed there will be millions of fruits, and each fruit there will be millions of seeds, and each seed contains again millions of trees. Where is your science? Where is that potency?
Devotee: Is a seed conscious, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Everything is conscious. First of all, even gross manifestation we cannot understand, what to speak of consciousness. That is different thing. According to our philosophy, everything has got consciousness. Just like this tree has got consciousness.
Svarupa Damodara: The scientists also say that they have consciousness.
Prabhupada: But this tree's consciousness and my consciousness is different. My consciousness is developed. If you pinch on my body, my consciousness will be immediately protesting. But you cut, it will not protest. So consciousness is different. So there is nothing which has no consciousness, but it is a question of degree. It is a question of degree. The more the consciousness is covered, it is called material. The more the consciousness is developed, it is called spiritual. That is the difference between matter and spirit.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, that verse in the Gita, that nityah sarva-gatah sthanuh. That verse in the Bhagavad-gita that living beings are everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes, sarva-ga. Acalo 'yam sthanur sarva-gah. Nitya. Nityah sthanur acalo 'yam. That is described. The seeds are everywhere. Just like they are trying to come out from this. You will find sometimes fracture, grass is coming. As soon as there is opportunity, they want to express the consciousness. Those who fall down... ksine punye punah martya-lokam visanti. They come with waters, rain water, and falls down on the ground and become grass. Then gradually, evolution.
Hrdayananda: That's terrible.
Prabhupada: Yes. A-brahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino... How subtle laws are working, what do they know the scientists? Therefore their so-called knowledge is mayaya apahrta-jnanah, actual knowledge is taken away by maya. And they are thinking, "I am very learned man, scholar." But actual knowledge is taken away. mayaya apahrta-jnanah. Why? Asuri-bhava. They won't accept God. Therefore they are all fools. In spite of all these degrees, they are all fools. Therefore they cannot explain everything very nicely. "In future we shall see."
Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that "We are beginning to learn more and more..."
Prabhupada: Yes. That means that you are fool. While you are in the process of learning, that means you are fool. Say directly that we are fool. That is gentlemanliness. You do not know; still, you pose, "I am, we are scholar, we are scientist. Give us Nobel Prize." You see. This is going on. We don't want Nobel Prize. We are giving the topmost knowledge. We don't hanker after Nobel Prize. But they give false knowledge and hanker after Nobel Prize. Just see. Their real aim is how to get the Nobel Prize by cheating. That is their real aim. How an educated man, learned man will cheat? So therefore my Guru Maharaja used to say that "This modern human society, or always, it is a society of the cheaters and the cheated." Somebody is cheating and somebody's cheated, and they have combined together to make a so-called civilization.
Karandhara: Prabhupada, you know the scientist you quoted in Easy Journey? You quoted an article from the newspaper in Easy Journey about the two scientists who were studying anti-matter?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Karandhara: Well, about a year ago another scientist came forward, and he charged that those two scientists actually stole the knowledge from him. They were working with him, and they stole it to win Nobel Prize.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many scientists like that. Just like this Marconi, he stole the knowledge from Dr. Jagadisha Candra Bose. You know that?
Svarupa Damodara: I have heard this.
Prabhupada: Yes. Jagadisha Candra... I was present. He said that "This man cheated me. I talked with him. Next morning he published the theory."
Karandhara: About radio?
Prabhupada: No, newspaper. Because both of them were friends, scientists, they talked. And he took the clue, immediately published the theory.
Bali Mardana: Which theory was that?
Prabhupada: That Marconi wireless.
Bali Mardana: Wireless, radio.
Prabhupada: Yes, radio. That was Jagadisha Candra Bose's discovery. But the government will not give the credit to the Indians. Because Jagadisha Candra Bose happened to be Indian. These Britishers they are so much envious. Therefore they will never admit that Bhagavad-gita was spoken five thousand years ago. They bring all within the Christian period. That is their rascaldom.
Jayadvaita: We went to a college and gave a class last week where the professor was saying that the Bhagavad-gita is only two thousand years old, like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. They will never accept it.
Yasomatinandana: One stupid guy was saying that there is some quotation in the Bhagavad-gita from Book of John.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is another rascaldom. Tava carjuna.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, what about the heart transplant? The spirit soul is within the heart, but when the... in the medical science nowadays, the old heart can be replaced by a new one. So what happens with the spirit soul with the old one?
Prabhupada: But that does not mean that new ones will increase their duration of life. That is our challenge.
Svarupa Damodara: But the personality is changed?
Prabhupada: No.
Svarupa Damodara: Why not?
Prabhupada: Why changed? Suppose if I sit from this chair to this chair, why I am changed? I can change my seat. It does not mean that I am changed.
Karandhara: Change the heart also. The heart can change.
Prabhupada: The heart is seat, sitting place.
Svarupa Damodara: But the new heart had spirit soul from the new one.
Prabhupada: Spirit soul, new or old there is. But if you can prove by changing the heart you can increase the duration of life, then you can catch the spirit soul.
Karandhara: That they're not able to do.
Prabhupada: That is their nonsense.
Bali Mardana: None of them have lived very long.
Prabhupada: No, they cannot be. Because by karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1], by superior arrangement, karmana, you have got this body. So you have to live within this body certain age. So if you change the body, new, that doesn't mean you prolong your life. That is not possible. It is the duration of life, that is considered. They are thinking by changing the heart they will increase the duration of life. That is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is some sort of artificial transmigration?
Prabhupada: Yes, like that. That transmigration taken... That is already explained in Bhagavad-gita. Just like a baby becomes a child, child becomes boy, boy becomes youth, like that. Transmigration it is going on continually. This is another type of transmigration. So it is a fact that by changing the heart the duration is not...?
Bali Mardana: No, most of them, they have lived, a very short times. But still is it a fact that the soul is transplanted from one body to another body?
Prabhupada: That can be done, yes. Sometimes yogis, they can perform that better body, he transfers himself into that body. Just Sankaracarya did, yes.
Karandhara: What they do, though, they wait till someone's dying or dead, and immediately after they die, they take the heart. From somebody who had the weak heart they transplant, change the heart.
Prabhupada: So what...? There is no benefit.
Karandhara: But that does not mean that the soul from the old heart, or the new heart is being changed into the new body.
Bali Mardana: The soul has already left. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the soul is individual. As I told yesterday that dead body has got the ingredients to produce life. But that the man who has left his body, you cannot produce him. That is the proof of individuality. That is the proof of individuality. Huh?
Bali Mardana: I was saying that they transplant the heart... After the first man, his soul has already gone, then they take his heart and put it into the other man, who has a weak heart. So all it means is that the soul is going from one heart to another heart, not that the soul, that they are taking the soul with it when they put the heart in.
Prabhupada: He is destined to live in that body for a certain years. So you may change whatever you like.
Karandhara: The heart is just an instrument in the machine.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is a place.
Bali Mardana: Now it's very clear. [break]
Prabhupada: Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. There is superior overlooking. That is Krsna, anumanta, upadrasta. Upadrasta anumanta.
Karandhara: One man, Dr. Wyberg from South Africa, he was the first successful heart transplant. So as soon as he got out of the hospital he started drinking and having sex life. (laughter) He was saying, "How wonderful science is. It can prolong my enjoyment." Then he died about a year later from too much...
Prabhupada: That is material life. As soon as they get some opportunity, they will have sex. That is the only hope. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45]. Here the only happiness is sex. Otherwise they are working so hard like asses. Why? Only for that sex. The only aim is "I will enjoy sex at night." That's all. That is the only aim. Yan maithunadi. It is stated in the Bhagavata. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham. They are attracted with the most abominable thing, sex life. Yes. Tuccham. Tuccham means very abominable, very insignificant thing. The position of the sex, the... How nasty it is! Just like crows, they enjoy in a nasty place. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Tad vayasa-tirtham. Vayasa means crows. The crows, as they enjoy... [break] grham andha-kupam, atma-patam. As soon as you fall down, you are killed. You are killed. This example is given. That is stated in Bhagavata. When a woman comes to serve you, you must know it is covered well. As soon as you fall down, then you are finished. Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta [SB 7.5.5]. Therefore in the Vedic system first brahmacari, become brahmacari. Learn how to avoid sex, celibacy. That is first instruction. And if you are completely unable, all right, get yourself married. Otherwise there is no need of sex life. Why one should have sex life?
Svarupa Damodara: Then how to continue the species?
Prabhupada: Why you will continue? You finish it, this condemned world, where you are simply suffering. Why should you continue it?
Svarupa Damodara: Because that is the laws of nature.
Prabhupada: No, no, laws of nature if you want. If you want to be condemned, then laws of nature is there. Otherwise laws of nature is teaching you how to become Krsna conscious. Just like police. Police business is to make you lawful. If you become lawful, there is no question of police. There is no question of police law. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Maya is kicking you one after another so that you may come to sense that "This life is not good." But we are so foolish that we say, "No, it is good." Yan maithunadi. "There is sex life. Oh, it is very good." This is the position.
Devotee: You give the analogy in the Bhagavad-gita that it's like pouring gas onto a fire you're trying to put out.
Hrdayananda: He said like putting gas on the fire.
Prabhupada: Ah. So increase the fire. Yes. But because we have got this body, we have to utilize it to make the best use of a bad bargain. Therefore marriage is allowed, grhastha life is allowed, not for increasing sex life, but to finish it as soon as possible.
Svarupa Damodara: But, Srila Prabhupada, even in the very lower forms of life, there are some species, they reproduce without any sex? It's called asexual reproduction.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Oh yes. These bugs, bedbugs, they produce by this blood. You kill...
Svarupa Damodara: We cannot check reproduction.
Prabhupada: No, how can you check? There are so many living entities. They have come to this material world to enjoy. So the reproduction must go on. Just like you cannot stop the jail. You come out, but another is ready to enter it. That is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: So it is within this material platform that we develop the consciousness by which...
Prabhupada: That was answered by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. One of His devotee, Vasudeva Datta, he said, "Sir, You have come. You take all the living entities of this universe and release them from this life. And if You think that they are so sinful, they cannot be, then give their all sins to me. But You take them." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "Suppose if I take this universe, the all living entities, do you think the business will be finished? This universe is just like a mustard seed in the bag of mustard seeds." (laughs) So from the bag of mustard seeds, if you take one mustard seed, what is the loss there? So this cannot be stopped. So anantaya kalpate. There are so many, unlimited number of living entities. So this will go on.
Yasomatinandana: You said in the Bhagavatam that the material world is like a correction house for the living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So everybody should develop Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. (Srila Prabhupada gets into car) Krsna consciousness is the only remedy. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] And this advancement of material civilization means entrapping the entrapped. The living entity is already entrapped, and he is allured by farther entrapment. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava. Jada-vidya, material advancement of civilization, means expanding the influence of maya. Why? Now anitya samsara, cannot live here. You have to give up this place. But still, you are thinking to make it a permanent settlement. That is not possible. Everyone knows. He will not be allowed to stay. But still insisting, gorgeous arrangement, how we can be, how we can become immortal. The scientists bluffing, "Yes, you will become immortal. We are finding out the means." But he will die. That means he is ass. He is allured by these false words. Therefore he is ass. Jibake karaye gadha. This is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song. Anitya samsara, this temporary world, he is attracted by this temporary. He cannot live here, he cannot stay here, he cannot enjoy here. That's a fact. But he is being allured. That means he is becoming more and more ass. Ass because they are believing still, "No, by scientific method, we shall do that, we shall do that. We shall cure all diseases. We shall live for good. There will be no more death. And we are happy." That means you are becoming... This material advancement of knowledge means you are becoming more and more asses. [break] (end)
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Morning Walk -- December 2, 1973, Los Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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