Paris, June 14, 1974
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Bhagavan: One thing is, though, that
people all over the world have great, great interest in India. They're looking
for something in India.Prabhupada: Yes. They should because the actual
spiritual understanding is there in India.
Yogesvara: They all raise the same objection, however. When we try to tell them that bhakti is the highest form of yoga, they say, "Why are you so sectarian?"
Prabhupada: Not sectarian.
Yogesvara: "India is always tolerant for so many things."
Prabhupada: You are calling us sectarian because you do not know what is yoga. You tell them that. Do you know what is yoga?
Yogesvara: They'll say: "Well, even the Gita describes so many..."
Prabhupada: They have been cheated by some cheaters that this practice, gymnastic practice, is yoga. That's all. They do not know what is yoga. Yoga-indriya-samyama. Even... All yoga systems, Patanjali's system. So indriya... Where is indriya-samyama? They are gratifying their senses to the fullest extent. And what is their yoga? That is described... You do not read the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. Why don't you explain them that, that "You are yogi... You not yogi. You only making some farce. Where is your yogi? Are you going to a solitary place? Are you practicing alone, sitting on your seat like as they are described, and looking on the point of the nose? Are you doing that? You are not yogi. You are simply a caricature. You are not yogi." Don't accept them as yogis. If one is yogi... That, that, that gentleman, that yogi came there. He appreciated very much.
Yogesvara: Shraddhananda Giri.
Prabhupada: Yes. He said that "Swamiji, you are doing the greatest work, that God's name you are distributing." He said like that. And when the record was going on, he was very rapt attention, he was very... So actual yogi means he'll be attracted by bhakti-yoga. And these gymnasticians, what they'll understand about yoga? That is a process to control the mind. Those who are too much bodily concept of life, for them that exercise is required. But that is also not properly done. They must find out a very sacred place and practice yoga alone, not with group. Group is possible in bhakti-yoga, not this hatha-yoga. That is not possible. The first attempt is condemned. Therefore all the yogis in India, actually those who are practicing yoga, they'll live outside human society. They never live in the city and get students to get them practice. And take thirty-five dollar fee. These are all bogus.
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, sometimes these people, they use the argument in the Twelfth Chapter, I think it's the second or third verse, Krsna says that those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking trouble. Those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking much trouble.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: "But they also come to Me." So what does this "come to Me" mean? They use this to mean that the same result is there, whether you worship...
Prabhupada: They come to Me after much trouble. That's all. So a foolish man will take much trouble. And intelligent man will take the short-cut, harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Much trouble means he's a foolish man. And this is also stated, avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24]. It's clearly stated there that the Absolute Truth is impersonal, but when He comes here, He appears as a person. So this conclusion is for the abuddhayah, less intelligent class of men, poor fund of knowledge. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24].
Paramahamsa: It seems as if the more one strives to push the movement on, the Krsna consciousness movement, the more maya puts obstacles in the way.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Paramahamsa: It seems, the more we strive to push the Krsna consciousness movement forward, the more maya puts obstacles in the way to stop us.
Prabhupada: Yes, but as soon as you become strong, naturally there will be more enemies. That is natural. Therefore last night I said, "If there is no understanding of God, where is religion?" This is not religion, the cheating. There cannot be any conception of religion without conception of God. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the law given by God. So if you have no idea about God, where is your religion? Religion does not mean some formalities. No, that is not religion. Formalities we have also, but we have clear conception of God. Here is Radha and Krsna.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what does it mean when we say, "Philosophy is for fools"?
Prabhupada: Philosophy for the fools? Who says? Another fool? I think this rascal Guruji says. Does he not?
Yogesvara: Yes, he says, "We have no philosophy. We just give the experience."
Prabhupada: You are all fools. You are all fools. Therefore you have no philosophy. You cannot understand philosophy.
Yogesvara: He says, "God is beyond philosophy and words."
Pusta-krsna: That is how he brainwashes them.
Paramahamsa: The impersonalists have agreed amongst themselves that "As many theories, as many ways to God."
Prabhupada: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the sastra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga.
Paramahamsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Paramahamsa: They argue that all paths lead to Krsna. So why is one better than another?
Prabhupada: If you know that all paths leads to Krsna, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this.
Guru-gauranga: They say one man's food is another man's poison. So perhaps this process isn't practical for everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you take the poison and die. Because you do not understand easily, better you take poison and die.
Paramahamsa: What does it mean when they say that failure is the pillar of success?
Prabhupada: Yes. For whom? Who is actually searching after success? Not for the fool. Anyone who is trying for attaining success, for him, failure is also success because he's making progress. Harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. God says, "Many ways." That's all right. But why does He says that "If you want to know Me perfectly, and without any doubt, then this is the process, bhakti"? Other processes are there but by those processes you cannot understand. Just like practically, call anyone, so-called yogis, so-called jnanis, they'll not understand Krsna. They'll not understand Krsna. So all other paths that are recommended, by those paths you cannot understand God perfectly and without any doubt. Therefore God says clearly, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah: [Bg. 18.55] "Actually, what I am, that can be understood by bhakti-yoga." Other systems, you'll... I explained that last night. That is partial understanding. That is not full understanding.
Yogesvara: But they'll say that that's the conclusion of Bhagavad-gita, but we don't accept Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Then go to hell. (laughter)
Yogesvara: But they say other parts of the Vedas recommend other ways.
Prabhupada: That's all right. We are preaching Bhagavad-gita. If you like, you take it. Otherwise, go to hell. Who cares for you? We have, we have started this institution, "Krsna Consciousness." So if you do not accept Bhagavad-gita, then why did you come here? Why do you come here? You go away. We are not hankering after you. If you go to hell, go to go. Go to that. Who objects? Go. But if you come here, then you must be Krsna conscious. If there is some signboard that "Indian sweets, rasagulla is available," why do you go there for asking meat? What is this meaning? We, we, our Society, it is Krsna consciousness. So why do you come here for if you don't believe in Krsna? Go to hell. Don't come here. If you want to understand Krsna, then come here. That is the first principle. Therefore in New York somebody suggested that "Make this International Society of God Consciousness." That will be great havoc. They'll bring, rascals, so many gods. Make it clear, Krsna consciousness. If you are interested in Krsna, then come here. If you are interested in something else, you go there.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people say, "I'm too dirty, too contaminated to come."
Prabhupada: "I'm too dirty"?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So cleanse yourself. Why don't you cleanse? Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The cleansing process is chant Hare Krsna and you'll be cleansed. Why do you stick to dirtiness? Be cleansed. If you agree that you are in dirtiness, then take the process of cleansing the dirt.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people argue that they've been born a sinful person. I know you said once in an article that vice is not inherent in the living entity.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know...
Prabhupada: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? [break] ...Navadvipa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? [break] That is accepted. Janmana jayate sudrah (?). By birth, everyone is a sudra. Sudra means unclean. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya.
Paramahamsa: Do people naturally act sinfully, or is that something that they develop?
Prabhupada: Hm? By association. If you mix with the drunkards, you'll learn how to drink. And if you mix with the devotees, similarly, you can become cleansed. By the association. Sangat sanjayate kamah. One's desires develop according to the association.
Bhagavan: Srila Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita, you state that sometimes they begin to take on these demonic qualities within the womb. These demonic qualities are inherited from the past life. So if we begin Krsna conscious education very young, it's possible to stop these demonic qualities from developing?
Prabhupada: No. His demonic qualities will be purified. Otherwise, what is the use of preaching? If the qualities cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Bhagavan: No, I said if we begin education early, they can be...
Prabhupada: Yes, as early as possible. From the very womb, you begin education. Let the mother hear about Krsna. He'll be purified from the womb. Just like Prahlada Maharaja became. He was born by a demon father. But his quality changed when his mother was instructed by Narada Muni, everything was changed. If the demons cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, sometimes they argue that Krsna knows past, present and future. We are preaching that we have minute independence. We are preaching that Krsna has given us minute independence to desire. So if Krsna knows past, present and future, then where is the question of our independence? In other words, He knows already what we're going to desire?
Prabhupada: Past, present and future? Therefore there should be no independence? Is that a very good argument?
Pusta-krsna: That is their argument.
Bhagavan: They say if Krsna knows already what you're going to do in the future, then what is the question of your independence?
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, "Don't do it. Do it." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. He was going to do sinful activities. Krsna advises him, "Don't do it." Krsna changes. Therefore He comes. Because Krsna knows that in the future, you'll, you'll do all sinful activities, therefore Krsna comes to check you, "Don't do it."
Pusta-krsna: All that karma is erased as soon as he surrenders to Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says, "Don't do it. Do this." Because He knows your future, therefore He comes to request you, "You rascal, don't do this. Do this." That is His knowing feature. "If you don't this, then I know you'll do simply sinful activities. So therefore I come to save you. Don't do this. Do this." What is the wrong there? Krsna says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati, tadatmanam srjamy aham: [Bg. 4.7] "When they misuse their independence, then I come to check them." Hare Krsna Hare Krsna... [break]
Pusta-krsna: ...as tiny jivatmas...
Prabhupada: That is independence. That is independence. If you don't surrender... That you can do also. But if you surrender, you are saved. And if you do not surrender, if you want to go to hell, Krsna does not check you, "All right, go to hell." Krsna comes to save you. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: "I shall save you from all sinful reaction of life. You have done so many lives simple sinful activities. Now you stop it. You surrender to Me, and I give you assurance that I'll save you." This is Krsna's mission. And if you think that you don't want to be saved, all right, you can go to hell, again. You become again the worms of stool. That's your choice.
Pusta-krsna:. So it's a very responsible position, to become a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, Therefore those who do not do that, they have been described, mudhah. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. One who does not take Krsna's instruction, they're all rascals. That is our test. A man may be very nicely dressed, running fast in the motor car. Ask him, "Do you know Krsna?" "No, sir." "You are a rascal." That's all. Finish all business. We don't give any respect. We can give respect as a formality, but we can understand immediately, "Here is a rascal." That's all. Is that correct? Yes. To find out a rascal is very difficult job? Simply see that he's not Krsna conscious. He's a rascal. That's all. That they may say, "You are very sectarian." Just like a criminal, he's punished, and he may say to high-court judge, "You are very sectarian. You are punishing me, and the other man, you awarded one million dollars. What is this?" Because he gave before a judgement that "This man must get this one million dollars," and next moment, he punishes one man, "Go to jail for six years." So the criminal may say, "Oh, you are so partial. You are giving, sending me to cell, and the other man, you are giving one million dollar. How is this?" But he does not know that he judging according to his work.
Devotee: If a person's senses are restrained by following regulative principles, but if his mind dwells in sense objects, is he becoming purified, or is he just a pretender.
Prabhupada: Strained?
Devotee: Restrained, controlled.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: If the senses are controlled, but his mind is contemplating sense objects, is he a pretender or is he becoming purified?
Prabhupada: No, no. By controlling the senses, gradually the mind will be controlled. You know. In the..., the tiger and the lion trained up to play in the circus, do you know how it is done?
Dhananjaya: They starve the animals.
Prabhupada: No.
Pusta-krsna: They feed them every time, whenever they do something.
Prabhupada: No, after catching them from the forest, they kept within the bars, and no eating for at least one week. Then the trainer comes. Only whips. He comes, and open the doors and only: (makes sound) Flosh, flosh, flosh. So already he's hungry, weak, and he's whipped. In this way, he becomes fearful. As soon as the man comes, he becomes fearful. Then he gives him little food. In this way, after all it is animal, he thinks that "This man is my God. He can save me. He can kill me." Then he takes to him. Whatever he says, he takes. Similarly, if you do not give the ingredients for sense enjoyment, the mind will be controlled. That is the beginning. You simply... Don't give... The mind wants, "Now let me go to the restaurant." "No, sir." Beat him with shoes. Instead of going to the restaurant, he beats the mind with shoes. Then mind will not again say, "Go to the restaurant." That is called swami, gosvami. One who can control his mind, that is gosvami. We giving the title "Gosvami" But if you cannot control your mind, then you are unfit. Go means senses, and svami means master. One who can control the senses and master, he is gosvami. (pause) ...definition of gosvami there: vaco vegam krodha-vegam manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah prthivim sa sisyat [NoI 1]. You have to control the impulse of speaking, vaco vegam, the impulse of becoming angry, vaco vegam, krodha-vegam. Then manasa-vegam, force of the mind. Then udara-vegam, the belly. Belly, already, although it is filled up, and as soon as there is some nice... Please fill up again, again. This you have to control, udara-vegam. Udaropastha-vegam, genital. In this way, one who has controlled all these forces, he is able to make disciple all over the world. Otherwise, not this rascal guru. As soon as he saw one very beautiful secretary, "Oh, let me enjoy." And he's guru. So these are cheating. And people want to be cheated. Therefore the cheaters are there. [break] ...fourteen years old. A fourteen years old cannot be induced to marry a twenty-six years girl. That is unnatural. And by medical examination, it is found that he's at least thirty-two years. It is declared in the medical, and still, the rascals following him. That he's cheating by talking false things. So in one sense, the Western boys and young generation, they are actually hankering after some spiritual life. So any Indian, so-called sadhu and guru comes, they go there. But they are cheated unfortunately. So you make your society so strong that you be not cheated, and others may not cheat. Then it will be first-class. And if you make another society of cheaters and cheated, there is no profit. Therefore you have to follow the rules and regulations very strictly and become serious. Then you'll be ideal. People are in need of some spiritual energy. Therefore, as soon as some swamis or guru comes, they flock together to get some food. But these rascals are cheating. So you don't do that.
Paramahamsa: It's also said that if you follow perfectly the rules and regulations, but don't develop love for Krsna, then you have wasted your time.
Prabhupada: Yes, but if you follow the rules and regulations, automatically, you'll love Krsna. Sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah. These are the stepping-stones. The devotional service develops by association. So if the associates are pure devotees, anyone who will come to that association will become devotee. [break] ...just like a young man and young woman. The devotion is there, love is there, but in the beginning, they should mix, or some presentation should be given, some, something eatable should be accepted, should be given. In this way, when the association is thick and thin, the love is there. The love is already there. It has to awakened by a certain process. Dadati pratigrhnati bhunkte bhojayate guhyam akhyati prcchati ca sad-vidham priti-laksanam. These are six types of loving principles, that you give, if you want to love somebody, you give something. And whatever he or she offers, you take from him. Dadati pratigrhnati. You give him something to eat, and whatever he or she gives, you eat. Bhunkte bhojayate ca. And guhyam akhyati prcchati. And you try to understand his heart, and your heart be disclosed to him or her. If you follow these principles, automatically the loving propensity will awaken. It is already there. It is not artificial. It has simply to be awakened by a certain process. So that process we are prescribing, to rise early in the morning, have mangala-aratrika, worship Deity, offer food stuff, eat prasadam, chant Hare Krsna. Anyone who will follow this principle, he will become purified. There is no need of education, because the devotion is already there. By following these rules and regulations, it will be awakened. As, as, as in this straw, there is fire. Now, you ignite it, and just fan it, and the fire will come. It is already there, fire. But you know, you must know the process how to ignite fire. Huge fire will come. You can burn the whole garden from this straw. Is it not? So you must know the process, how to ignite fire. Fire is already there, in these trees, in these straws, in this grass. Fire is already there. That, that is the process. First of all, you must know that fire is already there. Now ignite. Then it comes more. Then burning, blazing. So the blazing fire is required. But that will come gradually. If you follow the process. That is described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the Siksastakam, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The first step will be cleansing of the heart. And in the heart there is God, already. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord is situated in everyone's heart. So actually yoga system is to find out the Lord within the heart. That is meditation. Lord is there already: simply we have to find it out. That, that if, if you are informed that within this park there is one hundred weight of gold is lying there. Now you have to find out. But the indication is there. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord, the Supreme Lord, is situated in everyone's heart. Now find him out. That is yoga system. So these people, without finding out the Lord by practicing... (end)
Yogesvara: They all raise the same objection, however. When we try to tell them that bhakti is the highest form of yoga, they say, "Why are you so sectarian?"
Prabhupada: Not sectarian.
Yogesvara: "India is always tolerant for so many things."
Prabhupada: You are calling us sectarian because you do not know what is yoga. You tell them that. Do you know what is yoga?
Yogesvara: They'll say: "Well, even the Gita describes so many..."
Prabhupada: They have been cheated by some cheaters that this practice, gymnastic practice, is yoga. That's all. They do not know what is yoga. Yoga-indriya-samyama. Even... All yoga systems, Patanjali's system. So indriya... Where is indriya-samyama? They are gratifying their senses to the fullest extent. And what is their yoga? That is described... You do not read the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. Why don't you explain them that, that "You are yogi... You not yogi. You only making some farce. Where is your yogi? Are you going to a solitary place? Are you practicing alone, sitting on your seat like as they are described, and looking on the point of the nose? Are you doing that? You are not yogi. You are simply a caricature. You are not yogi." Don't accept them as yogis. If one is yogi... That, that, that gentleman, that yogi came there. He appreciated very much.
Yogesvara: Shraddhananda Giri.
Prabhupada: Yes. He said that "Swamiji, you are doing the greatest work, that God's name you are distributing." He said like that. And when the record was going on, he was very rapt attention, he was very... So actual yogi means he'll be attracted by bhakti-yoga. And these gymnasticians, what they'll understand about yoga? That is a process to control the mind. Those who are too much bodily concept of life, for them that exercise is required. But that is also not properly done. They must find out a very sacred place and practice yoga alone, not with group. Group is possible in bhakti-yoga, not this hatha-yoga. That is not possible. The first attempt is condemned. Therefore all the yogis in India, actually those who are practicing yoga, they'll live outside human society. They never live in the city and get students to get them practice. And take thirty-five dollar fee. These are all bogus.
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, sometimes these people, they use the argument in the Twelfth Chapter, I think it's the second or third verse, Krsna says that those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking trouble. Those who worship the impersonal Brahman, they are taking much trouble.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta-krsna: "But they also come to Me." So what does this "come to Me" mean? They use this to mean that the same result is there, whether you worship...
Prabhupada: They come to Me after much trouble. That's all. So a foolish man will take much trouble. And intelligent man will take the short-cut, harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Much trouble means he's a foolish man. And this is also stated, avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24]. It's clearly stated there that the Absolute Truth is impersonal, but when He comes here, He appears as a person. So this conclusion is for the abuddhayah, less intelligent class of men, poor fund of knowledge. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24].
Paramahamsa: It seems as if the more one strives to push the movement on, the Krsna consciousness movement, the more maya puts obstacles in the way.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Paramahamsa: It seems, the more we strive to push the Krsna consciousness movement forward, the more maya puts obstacles in the way to stop us.
Prabhupada: Yes, but as soon as you become strong, naturally there will be more enemies. That is natural. Therefore last night I said, "If there is no understanding of God, where is religion?" This is not religion, the cheating. There cannot be any conception of religion without conception of God. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the law given by God. So if you have no idea about God, where is your religion? Religion does not mean some formalities. No, that is not religion. Formalities we have also, but we have clear conception of God. Here is Radha and Krsna.
Devotee: Prabhupada, what does it mean when we say, "Philosophy is for fools"?
Prabhupada: Philosophy for the fools? Who says? Another fool? I think this rascal Guruji says. Does he not?
Yogesvara: Yes, he says, "We have no philosophy. We just give the experience."
Prabhupada: You are all fools. You are all fools. Therefore you have no philosophy. You cannot understand philosophy.
Yogesvara: He says, "God is beyond philosophy and words."
Pusta-krsna: That is how he brainwashes them.
Paramahamsa: The impersonalists have agreed amongst themselves that "As many theories, as many ways to God."
Prabhupada: But God says, "Although there are many ways, you give them up. You take to this only. Surrender unto Me." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Their many ways means there are many kinds of men. So in the sastra sometimes the attempt is to bring every one of them to bhakti-yoga.
Paramahamsa: But they argue that no matter, all ways, all paths lead to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Paramahamsa: They argue that all paths lead to Krsna. So why is one better than another?
Prabhupada: If you know that all paths leads to Krsna, then why don't you take this path? Why you are going round about way? If somebody asks you, "Where is your nose?" What is the use of showing like this. (laughter) Show like this. If you know really nose. But you do not know. Therefore you are going like this.
Guru-gauranga: They say one man's food is another man's poison. So perhaps this process isn't practical for everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you take the poison and die. Because you do not understand easily, better you take poison and die.
Paramahamsa: What does it mean when they say that failure is the pillar of success?
Prabhupada: Yes. For whom? Who is actually searching after success? Not for the fool. Anyone who is trying for attaining success, for him, failure is also success because he's making progress. Harer nama harer nama... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. God says, "Many ways." That's all right. But why does He says that "If you want to know Me perfectly, and without any doubt, then this is the process, bhakti"? Other processes are there but by those processes you cannot understand. Just like practically, call anyone, so-called yogis, so-called jnanis, they'll not understand Krsna. They'll not understand Krsna. So all other paths that are recommended, by those paths you cannot understand God perfectly and without any doubt. Therefore God says clearly, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah: [Bg. 18.55] "Actually, what I am, that can be understood by bhakti-yoga." Other systems, you'll... I explained that last night. That is partial understanding. That is not full understanding.
Yogesvara: But they'll say that that's the conclusion of Bhagavad-gita, but we don't accept Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Then go to hell. (laughter)
Yogesvara: But they say other parts of the Vedas recommend other ways.
Prabhupada: That's all right. We are preaching Bhagavad-gita. If you like, you take it. Otherwise, go to hell. Who cares for you? We have, we have started this institution, "Krsna Consciousness." So if you do not accept Bhagavad-gita, then why did you come here? Why do you come here? You go away. We are not hankering after you. If you go to hell, go to go. Go to that. Who objects? Go. But if you come here, then you must be Krsna conscious. If there is some signboard that "Indian sweets, rasagulla is available," why do you go there for asking meat? What is this meaning? We, we, our Society, it is Krsna consciousness. So why do you come here for if you don't believe in Krsna? Go to hell. Don't come here. If you want to understand Krsna, then come here. That is the first principle. Therefore in New York somebody suggested that "Make this International Society of God Consciousness." That will be great havoc. They'll bring, rascals, so many gods. Make it clear, Krsna consciousness. If you are interested in Krsna, then come here. If you are interested in something else, you go there.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people say, "I'm too dirty, too contaminated to come."
Prabhupada: "I'm too dirty"?
Paramahamsa: Yes.
Prabhupada: So cleanse yourself. Why don't you cleanse? Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The cleansing process is chant Hare Krsna and you'll be cleansed. Why do you stick to dirtiness? Be cleansed. If you agree that you are in dirtiness, then take the process of cleansing the dirt.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people argue that they've been born a sinful person. I know you said once in an article that vice is not inherent in the living entity.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Paramahamsa: That vice, or sinful activity is not something one is born with, that he acquires those qualities. But many people believe today that they are born, you know...
Prabhupada: But we are giving you the process of cleansing. Why you are persisting to remain unclean? We are giving you the medicine. We are all unclean. Now we are attempting and we are becoming clean. Why don't you come and be cleansed? [break] ...Navadvipa. From the day you arrive there, you'll be cleansed. I have got such a nice place. Come there, and stay, according to our rules and regulations. He'll be cleansed. One may be diseased but there are so many clinics, so many physicians, cleaning. Why should you insist to remain unclean? [break] That is accepted. Janmana jayate sudrah (?). By birth, everyone is a sudra. Sudra means unclean. Samskarad bhaved dvijah. But he takes to the reformatory methods, he becomes cleansed, dvija, twice-born, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya.
Paramahamsa: Do people naturally act sinfully, or is that something that they develop?
Prabhupada: Hm? By association. If you mix with the drunkards, you'll learn how to drink. And if you mix with the devotees, similarly, you can become cleansed. By the association. Sangat sanjayate kamah. One's desires develop according to the association.
Bhagavan: Srila Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita, you state that sometimes they begin to take on these demonic qualities within the womb. These demonic qualities are inherited from the past life. So if we begin Krsna conscious education very young, it's possible to stop these demonic qualities from developing?
Prabhupada: No. His demonic qualities will be purified. Otherwise, what is the use of preaching? If the qualities cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Bhagavan: No, I said if we begin education early, they can be...
Prabhupada: Yes, as early as possible. From the very womb, you begin education. Let the mother hear about Krsna. He'll be purified from the womb. Just like Prahlada Maharaja became. He was born by a demon father. But his quality changed when his mother was instructed by Narada Muni, everything was changed. If the demons cannot be changed, then what is the meaning of preaching?
Pusta-krsna: Prabhupada, sometimes they argue that Krsna knows past, present and future. We are preaching that we have minute independence. We are preaching that Krsna has given us minute independence to desire. So if Krsna knows past, present and future, then where is the question of our independence? In other words, He knows already what we're going to desire?
Prabhupada: Past, present and future? Therefore there should be no independence? Is that a very good argument?
Pusta-krsna: That is their argument.
Bhagavan: They say if Krsna knows already what you're going to do in the future, then what is the question of your independence?
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, "Don't do it. Do it." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam... [Bg. 18.66]. He was going to do sinful activities. Krsna advises him, "Don't do it." Krsna changes. Therefore He comes. Because Krsna knows that in the future, you'll, you'll do all sinful activities, therefore Krsna comes to check you, "Don't do it."
Pusta-krsna: All that karma is erased as soon as he surrenders to Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says, "Don't do it. Do this." Because He knows your future, therefore He comes to request you, "You rascal, don't do this. Do this." That is His knowing feature. "If you don't this, then I know you'll do simply sinful activities. So therefore I come to save you. Don't do this. Do this." What is the wrong there? Krsna says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati, tadatmanam srjamy aham: [Bg. 4.7] "When they misuse their independence, then I come to check them." Hare Krsna Hare Krsna... [break]
Pusta-krsna: ...as tiny jivatmas...
Prabhupada: That is independence. That is independence. If you don't surrender... That you can do also. But if you surrender, you are saved. And if you do not surrender, if you want to go to hell, Krsna does not check you, "All right, go to hell." Krsna comes to save you. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: "I shall save you from all sinful reaction of life. You have done so many lives simple sinful activities. Now you stop it. You surrender to Me, and I give you assurance that I'll save you." This is Krsna's mission. And if you think that you don't want to be saved, all right, you can go to hell, again. You become again the worms of stool. That's your choice.
Pusta-krsna:. So it's a very responsible position, to become a devotee of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, Therefore those who do not do that, they have been described, mudhah. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. One who does not take Krsna's instruction, they're all rascals. That is our test. A man may be very nicely dressed, running fast in the motor car. Ask him, "Do you know Krsna?" "No, sir." "You are a rascal." That's all. Finish all business. We don't give any respect. We can give respect as a formality, but we can understand immediately, "Here is a rascal." That's all. Is that correct? Yes. To find out a rascal is very difficult job? Simply see that he's not Krsna conscious. He's a rascal. That's all. That they may say, "You are very sectarian." Just like a criminal, he's punished, and he may say to high-court judge, "You are very sectarian. You are punishing me, and the other man, you awarded one million dollars. What is this?" Because he gave before a judgement that "This man must get this one million dollars," and next moment, he punishes one man, "Go to jail for six years." So the criminal may say, "Oh, you are so partial. You are giving, sending me to cell, and the other man, you are giving one million dollar. How is this?" But he does not know that he judging according to his work.
Devotee: If a person's senses are restrained by following regulative principles, but if his mind dwells in sense objects, is he becoming purified, or is he just a pretender.
Prabhupada: Strained?
Devotee: Restrained, controlled.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: If the senses are controlled, but his mind is contemplating sense objects, is he a pretender or is he becoming purified?
Prabhupada: No, no. By controlling the senses, gradually the mind will be controlled. You know. In the..., the tiger and the lion trained up to play in the circus, do you know how it is done?
Dhananjaya: They starve the animals.
Prabhupada: No.
Pusta-krsna: They feed them every time, whenever they do something.
Prabhupada: No, after catching them from the forest, they kept within the bars, and no eating for at least one week. Then the trainer comes. Only whips. He comes, and open the doors and only: (makes sound) Flosh, flosh, flosh. So already he's hungry, weak, and he's whipped. In this way, he becomes fearful. As soon as the man comes, he becomes fearful. Then he gives him little food. In this way, after all it is animal, he thinks that "This man is my God. He can save me. He can kill me." Then he takes to him. Whatever he says, he takes. Similarly, if you do not give the ingredients for sense enjoyment, the mind will be controlled. That is the beginning. You simply... Don't give... The mind wants, "Now let me go to the restaurant." "No, sir." Beat him with shoes. Instead of going to the restaurant, he beats the mind with shoes. Then mind will not again say, "Go to the restaurant." That is called swami, gosvami. One who can control his mind, that is gosvami. We giving the title "Gosvami" But if you cannot control your mind, then you are unfit. Go means senses, and svami means master. One who can control the senses and master, he is gosvami. (pause) ...definition of gosvami there: vaco vegam krodha-vegam manasa-vegam udara-vegam upastha-vegam, etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah prthivim sa sisyat [NoI 1]. You have to control the impulse of speaking, vaco vegam, the impulse of becoming angry, vaco vegam, krodha-vegam. Then manasa-vegam, force of the mind. Then udara-vegam, the belly. Belly, already, although it is filled up, and as soon as there is some nice... Please fill up again, again. This you have to control, udara-vegam. Udaropastha-vegam, genital. In this way, one who has controlled all these forces, he is able to make disciple all over the world. Otherwise, not this rascal guru. As soon as he saw one very beautiful secretary, "Oh, let me enjoy." And he's guru. So these are cheating. And people want to be cheated. Therefore the cheaters are there. [break] ...fourteen years old. A fourteen years old cannot be induced to marry a twenty-six years girl. That is unnatural. And by medical examination, it is found that he's at least thirty-two years. It is declared in the medical, and still, the rascals following him. That he's cheating by talking false things. So in one sense, the Western boys and young generation, they are actually hankering after some spiritual life. So any Indian, so-called sadhu and guru comes, they go there. But they are cheated unfortunately. So you make your society so strong that you be not cheated, and others may not cheat. Then it will be first-class. And if you make another society of cheaters and cheated, there is no profit. Therefore you have to follow the rules and regulations very strictly and become serious. Then you'll be ideal. People are in need of some spiritual energy. Therefore, as soon as some swamis or guru comes, they flock together to get some food. But these rascals are cheating. So you don't do that.
Paramahamsa: It's also said that if you follow perfectly the rules and regulations, but don't develop love for Krsna, then you have wasted your time.
Prabhupada: Yes, but if you follow the rules and regulations, automatically, you'll love Krsna. Sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah. These are the stepping-stones. The devotional service develops by association. So if the associates are pure devotees, anyone who will come to that association will become devotee. [break] ...just like a young man and young woman. The devotion is there, love is there, but in the beginning, they should mix, or some presentation should be given, some, something eatable should be accepted, should be given. In this way, when the association is thick and thin, the love is there. The love is already there. It has to awakened by a certain process. Dadati pratigrhnati bhunkte bhojayate guhyam akhyati prcchati ca sad-vidham priti-laksanam. These are six types of loving principles, that you give, if you want to love somebody, you give something. And whatever he or she offers, you take from him. Dadati pratigrhnati. You give him something to eat, and whatever he or she gives, you eat. Bhunkte bhojayate ca. And guhyam akhyati prcchati. And you try to understand his heart, and your heart be disclosed to him or her. If you follow these principles, automatically the loving propensity will awaken. It is already there. It is not artificial. It has simply to be awakened by a certain process. So that process we are prescribing, to rise early in the morning, have mangala-aratrika, worship Deity, offer food stuff, eat prasadam, chant Hare Krsna. Anyone who will follow this principle, he will become purified. There is no need of education, because the devotion is already there. By following these rules and regulations, it will be awakened. As, as, as in this straw, there is fire. Now, you ignite it, and just fan it, and the fire will come. It is already there, fire. But you know, you must know the process how to ignite fire. Huge fire will come. You can burn the whole garden from this straw. Is it not? So you must know the process, how to ignite fire. Fire is already there, in these trees, in these straws, in this grass. Fire is already there. That, that is the process. First of all, you must know that fire is already there. Now ignite. Then it comes more. Then burning, blazing. So the blazing fire is required. But that will come gradually. If you follow the process. That is described by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in the Siksastakam, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The first step will be cleansing of the heart. And in the heart there is God, already. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord is situated in everyone's heart. So actually yoga system is to find out the Lord within the heart. That is meditation. Lord is there already: simply we have to find it out. That, that if, if you are informed that within this park there is one hundred weight of gold is lying there. Now you have to find out. But the indication is there. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. The Lord, the Supreme Lord, is situated in everyone's heart. Now find him out. That is yoga system. So these people, without finding out the Lord by practicing... (end)
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Morning Walk -- June 14, 1974, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
