Saturday, November 30, 2013

How Will One Do Good Without Knowing What is Good

"How Will One Do Good Without Knowing What is Good"

May 22, 1975


download
  flash player

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada 

Prabhupada: There was a great devotee in South India. He was a treasury officer. So he took money from the treasury and constructed very nice temple. (laughter) Yes. Later on, he was caught, and he was put into jail by the Nawab. At that time the Mohammedan king, Nawab, he saw in dream that two boys, very beautiful, they have come to the Nawab: "Sir, what money he has taken, you can take from me and release him." So the Nawab said, "If I get my money, I can release him." Then, when his dream broke, he saw the money on the floor, and nobody was there. Then he could understand that he is great devotee. He called him immediately, that "You are released, and you take this money also. Whatever you have already taken, that's all right. And now this money also you take. You spend as you like." So devotees sometimes do like that. Actually nothing is private property. That is our philosophy. Isavasyam idam sarvam: [Iso mantra 1] "Everything belongs to God." That's a fact. Under the influence of maya we are thinking that "This is my property."Just like suppose this cushion. Wherefrom the wood has come? Has anybody produced wood? Who has produced? It is God's property. Rather, we have stolen God's property and claiming, "My property." Then Australia. The Englishmen came here, but is that the property of the Englishmen? It was there. America, it was there. And when everything will be finished, it will be there. In the middle we come and claim, "It is my property," and fight. Is it not? You are a barrister, you can judge better.
Guest 2: That was the argument he used.
Guest 1: No, It (indistinct). (laughter)
Prabhupada: Originally, originally, everything belongs to God. So why we are claiming, "It is my property"? Suppose you have come here. You sit down for one hour, two hours, and if you claim, "It is my property," is that very good judgement? You have come from outside, you are allowed to sit down here for two hours, and if you claim, "This is my property..." Similarly, we come here. We take birth either in America or in Australia or in India and remain for fifty, sixty or hundred years, and why shall I claim, "It is my property"?
Guest 3: You don't claim it, I suppose. If you own property, what happens, I would have thought, is more that for a time you have got possession.
Prabhupada: For a time you have got possession of the chair -- that does not mean your property.
Guest 3: But I suppose if somebody came and took the chair while I've got it in my possession, I'd be terribly upset about it.
Prabhupada: No, that is a (indistinct) thing. Nobody will disturb you. You remain in your chair. (laughter) That does not mean because you have sat down on the chair for two hours, you become proprietor.
Guest 2: One gets attached.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Guest 2: One gets attached to the chair. I like this chair. It's a nice chair.
Prabhupada: No, that's all right. You like, you sit down, and you go when it is finished. But how do you claim that it is your property?
Guest 2: Good-bye. (laughter)
Prabhupada: That is called maya. This is maya. The philosophy of maya, maya means what is not. Ma-ya. Ma means not, ya means this. So maya means the conclusion, as you have made, that is not. That is not the fact. So we are claiming, "America is our", "Australia is our", "India is our". Nothing our. Everything God's. The best conclusion is, "It is God's property. God has given us to live. Let us thank God, feel obliged to Him, and glorify Him." That is our vision. That is Krsna consciousness movement. You accept the real position, that nothing belongs to you, everything belongs to God. You also belong to God. Your body, yourself, everything belongs to God. This body is material body. That material energy, earth, water, air, fire -- everything belongs to God. This sea belongs to God, water, vast water. You have not created, neither your forefather has created. So this body is made of earth, water, air, fire, five elements. So your, the body is also God's.
So far I am soul, I am also part and parcel of God. So everything belongs to God. This is Krsna consciousness. We are falsely claiming that "It is our." This is maya. Maya means what is not fact. That is the meaning of maya.
Madhudvisa: Srila Prabhupada, this concept that everything belongs to God, it can't work unless everybody believes that everything belongs to God.
Prabhupada: Then everybody may be mad. That does not change the fact. If some madman comes in this room and he fights, "I am the proprietor. You get out," so that is not the fact.
Guest 1: I understand, you know you were talking about the sea and so on. But it's for people to use.
Prabhupada: Use, you can use. Tena tyaktena bhunjithah [Iso mantra 1]. That is the Vedic injunction. What is given to you, you use it. Just like one gentleman has got five sons. He gives one son, "This is your property. This is your property. This you can use." But the sons must acknowledge that "This is father's property. He has given us." Similarly, in the Vedic sastra it is said that "Everything belongs to God, and whatever He has given to you, you can use. Don't encroach upon others."
Guest 1: But if He has given... You were saying that if He's given something to you and don't encroach upon others, but there are certain things that one person has or one group of persons have which, I think, truly can be said that...
Prabhupada: And originally we have to accept. Everything belongs to God. Just like father and sons. The son must know, "The property is father's." That is the real knowledge. Now, "Whatever father has given me, I will use it. Why shall I encroach upon others, my other brother, which he has got from the father?" This is good sense. "Why shall I fight with my other brother? My father has given him this property to him, so let him use that, and whatever he has given me, let me use it. Why shall I encroach upon his property?" This is good sense.
Guest 1: I can understand when you say, "Don't encroach on other people's property." And I believe, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that if you have something, if someone's given you something and someone else wants to use it, then let him. I can understand that. But don't you get into the stage and can't you get to the stage at times that for some reason or other you don't want him to use it?
Prabhupada: I don't want to use my thing?
Madhudvisa: He's saying that if someone does not want, that you don't want someone to use what you have. If someone tries to forcibly take...
Prabhupada: No, that is another thing.
Guest 1: The situation could arise when you wouldn't want somebody to use what you were using for some particular reason. You might be using it yourself at that time. That situation can arise that you don't want...
Madhudvisa: We are believing that everything belongs to God. If someone else does not believe in that concept and tries to use...
Prabhupada: That is wrong, that I say. That is his wrong conception.
Guest 2: Well, how do you reconcile or how do you work out a situation... If everything belongs to God, we have to run society, and...
Prabhupada: But you don't forget that everything belongs to God. Because you have to run society, it does not mean that you forget the real thing.
Guest 1: So I really don't object to that idea at all. But the thing is that the system we're working within has got different concepts.
Prabhupada: It should be rectified.
Guest 1: It should be...?
Prabhupada: Rectified.
Madhudvisa: The system should be rectified.
Guest 1: I suppose Wally and I are thinking on the same wavelength because we can imagine the problems that we'd have.
Prabhupada: Now you have got the United Nations. Now, if they are sane men, they should pass resolution, "The whole world belongs to God, and we are all God's sons. So let us make now United States of the World." That can be easily done. If they can make United States of America, why not United States of the whole world?
Guest 2: I think that would probably solve a lot of problems because...
Prabhupada: Yes, all problems. Now, suppose in India there is scarcity of foodstuff. In America, in Africa, in Australia, there is enough grain. Produce foodstuff, distribute. Then immediately whole nations become united. Use everything, God's gift -- we are all sons -- very nicely. Then the, all the problems solved. Now the difficulty is that we have made, "No, this is my property. We shall use it, nation." In the Vedic conception there is no such thing as national. There is no such conception. That is the idea, Vedic conception of society or politics. There is no question of national.
Guest 1: You're thinking more of an international world than a national world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I certainly don't.
Prabhupada: Yes, that we want to do: one God, one state, one scripture, and one activity. That is the ultimate end of Krsna consciousness movement. Just like we are from different countries. We don't think as nationalism, that "I am American," "I am Indian." No. We all think that "We are all servant of Krsna." And they are working in that spirit. It is possible. If this idea is accepted in that United Nation, it can be done. But they will not accept. They are going go be united, but everyone is thinking, "First of all my interest." All cheating. They are outwardly, "Now we have come to the United Nation," but no one is going to be united. Everyone is thinking, "It is my first interest first. I must give veto if he's opposing." This is going on. Therefore for the last twenty years or more than that, they are trying to be united, but it is becoming disunited. The flags are increasing. In New York they have got their headquarters. When I pass through, I see that another flag has increased.
So this United Nations is a failure and it will be failure because there is no God consciousness.
Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Guest 3: I don't think it's necessary that it fails. I don't... I think things are changing definitely throughout the world. It's a matter of which course they take.
Prabhupada: No, what changing? They are preparing for war again. Where is changing? A slight provocation, there may be war.
Guest 1: Yes, but people are changing now. You're getting the young people who for the first time in years are becoming aware and are getting interested in things outside their own town, their own individual state or whatever it is they have. You have people, the young people now are getting interested in things like poverty, they're interested in Bangladesh and so on. This is good. But you nonetheless have a very large proportion of the people who have got that idea of, "I'm all right, and I'll look after mine without taking the overall picture into account." And I think that so long as you have different concepts, different beliefs, it's going to be very hard to get into what you're talking about.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is to be united first, that... First thing is that everyone should be convinced or understand clearly that everything belongs to God. But they have no conception of God even. That is the difficulty. The whole human society at the present moment, majority, they are Godless, especially the Communists. They don't acknowledge. The scientist, the philosopher, the scholars -- all Godless. Scientists' special business is how to defy God. They say, "Science is everything. We can do everything by science." There is no need of God. Huh?
Guest 2: I don't think so any more. They're a lot more enlightened.
Prabhupada: Not any more?
Guest 2: Well, in some circles, yes I think.
Prabhupada: That was never any more, but if they are realizing that, that is very good.
Guest 1: But you can't say that scientists are working in a way that is opposite to God's will.
Prabhupada: Yes, they say. They say, oh yes. I have met many scientists. They say that "We shall solve everything by scientific advancement. We have done already." They say like that.
Guest 1: But just because they...
Prabhupada: Just like there is a big theory, chemical theory. One big scientist... Big or small, whatever he may be, he has got a Nobel Prize.
Guest 1: He's medium sized. (laughing)
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest 1: He's medium sized.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is making the theory that life has come from chemicals by chemical combination, chemical evolution. Darwin's theory is also of that. This is their... Big, big scientists, they are so fool that life has come from matter. Where is the proof? He was lecturing in California University, and there was one student. He is my disciple. He challenged him that "If you get the chemicals, whether you can manufacture life?" That answer was, "That I cannot say." Why? You are putting this theory, that life has come from chemicals. So science means observation and experiment. Now experimentally prove that the chemicals have produced a life.
Guest 1: They're trying. (laughs)
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. When you are trying to be a lawyer or barrister, that does not mean you are barrister. When you are a student of law you cannot say that "I am barrister," or "advocate," that you cannot say. You are trying to be, that is another thing. But while they are trying to be, they are taking the position of leader. That is the misleading. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. "One blind man is trying to lead many other blind men." What is the use of such leading? If the leader is blind, how he will do well to other blind men?
Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Guest 3: Beethoven was deaf.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Madhudvisa: Beethoven, the great composer, he was deaf.
Guest 3: At least, for part of his life.
Guest 1: But can't you have people doing good for the sake of goodness?
Prabhupada: But he does not know what is good.
Guest 1: But there are certain people...
Prabhupada: Therefore I say blind. He does not know what is good. real goodness is to understand God. That is real goodness.
Guest 1: But there are certain things that you don't..., that are good, that you can accept as being good just by themselves. Now if you see an old lady who gets run over by a car, you go and help her. Now there are certain things that are good by themselves, I think, and that people will react and do the good thing even though they mightn't have any concept of God.
Prabhupada: No. Unless you have got the real platform how you can do good? Just like our Madhudvisa Maharaja was obliged to you. You have done some good in legal affairs. But unless you are a lawyer, legal man, how can you do it? You have a mind to do good, but if you are not a lawyer, how could you do?
Guest 2: But there would be a lot of lawyers to do...
Prabhupada: No, that is another thing. I am talking of yourself. If one does not know what is good, then how he will do good? The first business is that he must know what is good. Then he can do something good. Otherwise what is the use of jumping like monkey? He must know. Because you are a lawyer you know how to deal with law, you can do good. But a layman who is not a lawyer, how he can do good? So therefore, anyone who is posing himself as leader to do good to the society, he must know first of all what is good.
Guest 2: Would you say that the lawyer can do good whether or not he believes in God?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I am saying that if you are not a lawyer, if you have no study of the law, how can you do good?
Guest 2: Well, that's what I was putting. I was hoping to lead you from there to the other situation of no studying or specific training.
Madhudvisa: No. Srila Prabhupada was saying that you could help us legally because you knew the law. If you weren't a lawyer, then you couldn't have helped us legally. Right?
Guest 2: I see, I see what you mean, yes.
Madhudvisa: So therefore, now taking that same example, you can't do good for someone unless you know what good is. You can't...
Guest 2: I was misunderstanding what he was saying.
Madhudvisa: You can't help us legally unless you know the law yourself. You can't... I mean, just any Joe can't walk into the court and start speaking. The judge will say, "Go away." But because you're a lawyer you can help us.
Guest 1: But the question Raymond asked before was if somebody helped an old lady across the street and he was, say, an atheist, would it be doing a good action?
Madhudvisa: Well, it depends. It depends on what the lady was doing.
Guest 1: It depends if he pushed her in front of a car.
Madhudvisa: That lady may have been...
Guest 1: If she wanted to cross the road?
Madhudvisa: No, no. That lady may have been walking home with a cartload, with booze, to kill herself. So when she got knocked over and all her liquor fell out on the ground and you didn't help her up with it, then maybe it was good that you left her there.
Guest 1: No, I think that particular situation where he helped the lady across the road...
Prabhupada: No, particular situation is different. But generally if we do not know what is the ultimate goal, then we misguide. That is the point. So either in society or politics or economics or religion, philosophy, culture -- everyone is engaged in some department. But if that leader does not know what is the ultimate goal of life, how he will lead? That is given direction in the Srimad-Bhagavatam in two verses. One verse is: idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22]. Find out this verse. It is in the First Canto. Who can...? Where is? First of all find out this verse.
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam
 [SB 1.5.22]
Srutakirti: What is it, idam hi...
Prabhupada: Pumsah. Yes, the direction is... Read it.
Srutakirti: Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va...
Prabhupada: Come here.
Srutakirti:
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam
 [SB 1.5.22]
"Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry."
Prabhupada: The advancement of knowledge in any department, that is very good. But what is the aim? The aim is to glorify the Supreme Lord. Just like you are lawyer. You gave us help in some difficulty time. Why? Because you wanted to continue glorification of the Lord, that "These men are doing nice. Why they should be harassed?" So that means you helped glorification of the Lord. So that's your success as a lawyer. So anyone who helps this movement, that "They are spreading Krsna consciousness, God consciousness. They should be helped in all respect," that is the perfection. Everything is required, but it should be culminated in the matter of glorifying the Supreme. Then it is perfect. In another place... Find out this verse,
atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
 [SB 1.2.13]
Just like you have helped this institution in a difficult position. That means you have pleased Krsna. That is your success. My devotees are in difficulty.
They wanted some legal help. You, as a lawyer, helped them, so you have pleased Krsna, God. That is the aim of life. Whether by my work in different spheres, as a lawyer, as a businessman, or as a scholar, as a philosopher, as a scientist, as an economist... There are so many demands. It doesn't matter. But you should see whether you are successful. And what is the standard of success? The standard of success is whether you have pleased God. You read this. Atah pumbhir dvija-sresthah...
Srutakirti: Atah...
Prabhupada: Pumbhir.
Srutakirti: Atah pumbhir dvija-sresthah.
Prabhupada: Hmm. Find out this verse.
Srutakirti:
atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam
 [SB 1.2.13]
"Oh best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging his prescribed duties, dharma, according to caste divisions and order of life, is to please the Lord, Hari."
Prabhupada: That is religion. That should be developed, that "Whether by my profession, by my business, by my talent, by my capacities..." There are different categories. "Whether I have pleased God?" Then it is successful. If you have pleased God by your legal profession -- you are in a different dress -- it doesn't matter. You are as good as they are whole time only serving God. Because their business is also to please God. Similarly, if you have pleased God, then even by practicing your law, you are as good as the saintly person. That should be the aim, "Whether I have pleased God with my professional duty or occupational duty?" That is the standard. Let people take up this. We don't say that "You change your position. You become a sannyasi or you give up your profession and become bald-headed." No, we don't say that. (laughs) We are by nature. (laughter) So this is Krsna consciousness, that you remain in your position, but see whether by your discharge of duties you have pleased God.
Then everything will be all right.
Guest 3: I think this is the attitude to certainly my religion, where we believe that through the profession, the way you mention it, we are doing things towards God. And even in the ordinary days of the week, that you could be doing or generally making life in a way to please God. And that's my belief because my religion has the same belief as what you've just been mentioning, that even through the running of the professions and all the practice of the profession is one way of helping people. And because you are helping people you are in fact doing something that God wants.
Prabhupada: No, not general people.
Guest 3: It's the indirect way because God wants people to be happy. Now, if you can help people, if you can help people as people, surely that means that you must be pleasing God.
Prabhupada: No, first of all... Suppose you are a lawyer, and some man has committed murder, and he wants your help. And suppose by your legal tricks you save him. So that will not please God. (laughter)
Guest 3: You've got a different consideration here.
Guest 2: You've got a lot of places and names for that.
Guest 3: We've got a different consideration here, you see, because the law that we have is very different from God's law. And I think that... [break]
Prabhupada: You must accept God's law, not the people's law.
Guest 1: Well, the problem is that we're confined by the state law here just as the boys with the flowers. Now, maybe in Krsna's law they did nothing wrong, but they were still subjected to being taken away like that.
Prabhupada: Yes, but he saved them. He saved them.
Guest 3: Now wait a minute. I want to get this thing straight, if I may. One boy was charged. Now, I don't care what happened or where the flowers came from. I was told and I believe that that particular boy was not involved. Now, someone else may have been. But as far as I was concerned, I believed that the boy that they got was not involved himself. Now, I'm not saying that some other people were not involved. But I think that that particular boy, I am satisfied... Do you agree with this, Wally?
Guest 1: Yeah, but even if you had been told that that boy did it, your job would have been to...
Guest 3: If they say that boy... If I was told, "Look, that boy did it," then the case would have been done completely differently because then you can't then go around and say, "Look, he didn't do it." So it's a different approach, different approach altogether you see. But as far as... I just wanted to get that thing straight, as far as that particular boy. But according to the law in here, we have to operate within our law. Now, true it is that outside of it, you have got the question of God's law. But I'm not that kind of lawyer. I'm not involved with God's law.
Prabhupada: No, I... I know that. That is not...
Guest 3: I can only operate with the tools that I have.
Guest 1: But even if you are a church, if you are a church-goer it makes it very interesting because you're subject to that church law.
Guest 3:. Well, I'm a church-going person.
Guest 1: What happens in the situation where somebody has committed a murder?
Guest 3: Nothing. It's... Look...
Guest 1: It's a matter of church conscience.
Guest 3: It's nothing. It's got nothing to do... I'm not there to judge...
Guest 1: This was the example given.
Guest 3: I'm not there to judge. All I'm there to do is to do a job. Someone else has got the unfortunate task of having to judge people. I don't have to do that, so I don't decide.
Prabhupada: No, we can judge from the standard laws. India still, if one has very good garden and flowers, if somebody goes, "Sir, I want to take some flowers from your garden for worshiping God," "Yes, you can take." They will be very glad.
Guest 1: This man, his livelihood depended on those flowers and I don't... I think his possessions were more important to him unfortunately.
Guest 3: It's a funny story. There's a funny follow up to that one, and that is that the flowers were taken from two men that ran nurseries. And we had to go through an appeal finally to get heard. But just before the appeal came off the boys needed a glass house because of their special plants, which you've got outside here.
Srutakirti: Tulasi.
Guest 3: And they didn't know anything about glass houses. So they were driving around and one said, "Well, let's go and find out something about glass houses. Oh, there's a nice nursery." (laughter) So the car drives up, you see. The devotee comes out, and he said, "Excuse me, sir, but we're interested in glass houses." He said, "Will you please get out of my land?" The same nursery. (laughter) There were two hundred nurseries around the area. He picked that particular one.
Prabhupada: But if people would have been God conscious, they would have excused, "Oh, they have come for God's service. All right, you can take." Therefore the first business is to make people God conscious. Then everything is adjusted. Yasyasti bhaktih, there is a verse in Bhagavata,
yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana
sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah
harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna
manorathenasati dhavato bahih
 [SB 5.18.12]
The meaning is that "Anyone who is God conscious, a devotee, he has got all the good qualities. What we consider as good qualities, he has got. And similarly, one who is not a devotee of God, he has no good qualities because he will hover on the mental platform. There are different platform: bodily concept of life, general, "I am this body. Therefore my business is to satisfy the senses." This is bodily concept of life. And others, they are thinking, "I am not this body. I am mind." So they are going on mental speculation like philosophers, thoughtful men.
And above that, there is intelligent class of men, practicing some yoga. And spiritual platform means above that. First bodily concept, gross, then mental, then intellectual, then spiritual. So this Krsna consciousness movement is on the spiritual platform, above body, mind and intelligence. But actually, we should come to that platform. Because we are spirit soul, we are neither this body nor this mind nor this intelligence. So one who is on the platform of spiritual consciousness, they have got everything, intelligence, proper use of mind, proper use of the body. Just like a millionaire, he has got all the lower grade possession. Ten rupees or hundred rupees or hundred pounds -- he has got all, everything. Similarly, if we try to make an attempt to bring people on the platform of God consciousness, then he is possessing all other qualities: how to take care of the body, how to use the mind, how to use intelligence, everything. But it is not possible that everyone should become God conscious.
That is not possible. Because there are different grades. But at least one class of men should remain in the society as ideal, God conscious. Just like for our usual life we require lawyers, we require engineer, we require medical practitioner, we require so many, similarly, in the society there must be a class of men who are fully God conscious and ideal. That is necessary. Just like in your body you have got hands, legs, belly, but the head must be there. If your head is cut off, then, despite you have got hands, legs, and belly, it is useless. So this attempt, Krsna consciousness movement, is an attempt to keep at least one class of men, ideal devotee, ideal character. At least, people will see, "Oh, here is an ideal character." That is required. That is described in the Srimad-..., Bhagavad-gita, how to create a first-class man. Just like we have got educational institution for giving instruction on law or medical science or engineering, similarly, there must be an institution to make first-class devotee, ideal man.
That is necessary.
Guest 2: I think the problem in western society, because in western society if you're not the head, then you're inferior.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Guest 2: If you're not the head, you're inferior. In Indian society that's not so.
Prabhupada: Who shall be the head?
Guest 2: All want to be heads, in one way or another.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Amogha: He says that we all want to be heads.
Prabhupada: No. That is a very good idea, but the leg is also required. If you simply keep the head and there is no leg, then it is incomplete. Everything is required. To keep the body fit you require head, you require arms, you require belly, you require leg. That is the system of varnasrama-dharma. In India you have heard that there is a class, brahmana. Now it is now broken. But this is the Vedic civilization, that one class of men should be the brahmanas, first class. One class of man should be ksatriya, the administrators, politicians. One class of man should be food producer, vaisya. And one class of man should be laborer, who has no brain but he can assist the other three.
Guest 2: The ideal in western societies is all people should be equal.
Prabhupada: No, that is not ideal and neither it is possible. Not that everyone is going to be lawyer. Even though everyone has got the ambition to become a first-class lawyer and earn like anything, but that is not possible. So therefore it requires selection, who will become a lawyer, who will become a scientist, who will become a medical man...
Guest 2: In our society you are taught in school that if you try hard enough, you can become prime minister.
Prabhupada: No, no, there is no harm. You become prime minister. But I say that not everyone is capable to become prime minister. That has to be. If one man is not capable and if he takes education to become, he will waste his time.
Guest 2: But once you have the idea in your head that you can be prime minister, you don't want to be a laborer.
Prabhupada: Then you become. But if he is a loafer and he wants to become prime minister, then it will create havoc. Just like in America. He was not fit for the president's post. Nixon was elected. Then again he has to be dragged down. We say the fit man should go to become a particular...
Guest 2: Our system, I think is not very good. But everyone is taught this way in our system.
Prabhupada: No, there must be... Just like first-class men. They should judge for which purpose this man is. Practical psychology there is. I think. They can decide like that. Anyway, the society must have all divisions of men, and then the society is perfect. We have already many divisions, but we are lacking one division, that, the first-class men, first-class ideal men. That is lacking.
Guest 1: I think everybody acknowledges that.
Prabhupada: Yes, that first-class man is stated here. Read that.
Amogha:
samo damas tapah saucam
ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
 [Bg. 18.42]
Translation: "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness -- these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."
Prabhupada: So we have to train men like that.
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with anyone of those.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest 1: I don't think anybody would disagree with any one of those.
Prabhupada: Yes. So as you are training lawyer, as you are training medical man, you can train some men like that. It is possible. If you train from the childhood, it is possible. It doesn't matter from which family he is coming, but it will require, trained up. Just like you have been trained up as lawyer, it doesn't matter from which family you have... It may be lawyer's family or engineer's family. It doesn't matter. But training. So at the present moment, to make the society perfect, a class of men should be trained as it is described here. That is Krsna consciousness movement. And if the first-class men are there, people will consult them, people will follow them, the whole society will be nice.
Guest 2: What about soldiers?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest 2: Soldiers?
Prabhupada: Soldiers, they should be also trained up. They are being trained up. Ksatriyas. Just read the ksatriya...
Amogha:
sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
yuddhe capy apalayanam
danam isvara-bhavas ca
ksatram karma svabhava-jam
 [Bg. 18.43]
Translation: "Heroism power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and..."
Prabhupada: Courage in battle.
Guest 2: American soldiers.
Prabhupada: No, whoever may be. Not that I sit down in my armchair and I give direction. The poor soldiers are fighting. No. He should go. Courage. He should personally give direction, "Do like this." Who is doing that? The minister of defense is very comfortably sitting on his chair, and the poor soldiers are fighting. That is not required. He must go first of all: "Do like this." Just like in Battle of Kuruksetra, Arjuna is in front; the other side, Duryodhana. The real fighters, they are face to face. Soldiers are assistant. Where is that? So they should be trained up. So unless he is by his nature very powerful, sauryam... What is that?
Amogha: Sauryam, heroism.
Prabhupada: Heroism. Therefore the ksatriyas are allowed to hunt in the forest to become hero because he has to fight. Just like in medical laboratory they first of all dissect some poor animal before touching human being. Therefore ksatriyas are allowed to hunt to become hero. Facing the tiger, "Come on." And still, say, about twenty-five years ago, there was a native prince in Jaipur. Every year he would go to the forest and face the tiger, without any weapon. So that is required.
Guest 2: That is good?
Prabhupada: That is required. Those who are politicians, those who are going to be president, they must be like that.
Guest 2: In our society that wouldn't be thought good.
Prabhupada: No, your society whatever you may be, this is the idea.
Guest 1: Well, that's almost the description of General Amin.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest 1: That's almost the description of General Ahin.
Prabhupada: General...?
Guest 2: Where is he?
Guest 1: Idi Amin? Uganda.
Amogha: There is a general in Africa who is very powerful, but he's demonic.
Prabhupada: No, no. They should not be demonic. Other things are there. Sauryam tejo...
Amogha: "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership..."
Prabhupada: Generosity.
Guest 2: So he hasn't got generosity.
Guest 3: No, he's got another one, insanity. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Not insanity.
Guest 1: You can't substitute.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is there. He must be at the same time... Although he is hero, he must be generous. Just like Alexander the Great. Perhaps you know the story. He arrested one thief. So when he was arrested and he was being judged by Alexander, the thief pleaded that "What is the difference between you and me? You are a great thief. I am a small thief." (laughter) So Alexander understood it and got him released, "Yes." (laughter) This is generosity. He must agree to the principle.
Guest 1: Well, there's another one, the battle. You know the big battle where the opposition, what was his name, was on the ground, and he said, "You won't..."
Guest 3: ...won't live.
Guest 1: It's an Indian.
Madhudvisa: We brought back Wally one picture from India on the battle of Kuruksetra of Abhimanyu. Abhimanyu's head was there, and Karna was on the ground with his chariot, and Arjuna was about to kill him, and Krsna was directing him to kill. So I told Wally the story that when Abhimanyu was surrounded by the maharathis, there was no mercy then, so now Karna was objecting that...
Prabhupada: Injustice.
Madhudvisa: ...he cannot shoot a man if he gets off his chariot. And Krsna said, "There was no mercy with Abhimanyu, so therefore there will be no mercy now."
Prabhupada: Tit for tat. (laughter)
Guest 1: But where was the generosity then?
Prabhupada: That is happening, tit for tat.
Guest 1: Was that generosity, or...? Where was the generosity?
Prabhupada: No. That is war tactics. That is war tactics. Sometimes we have to use war tactics because we have to own victory. But they were generous because in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra they would fight like anything, like enemies, but at night they were friends. The one man is going. Just like sportsman. They fight during the play, but after that, they are friends, talking together, drinking together, like that.
Guest 2: Like barristers and prosecutors.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. They are paid for fighting. (laughter) But when the fighting is over, they are friends.
Guest 1: Sometimes.
Madhudvisa: Srila Prabhupada, Raymond did not realize that you were going to be so merciful to grant so much time and he thought that you were only going to give about ten minutes, so he left about twenty people back at his house at one party. So he's feeling that he must return.
Raymond: It's my father-in-law's birthday.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Raymond: And it's my son's ninth birthday.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Raymond: And what we're doing is we've decided we're going to have the family.
Prabhupada: That's nice, very nice. So give some prasadam to his son and his father-in-law.
Raymond: And then my wife said, a couple of nights ago my wife said, "Well...
Prabhupada: Take some blessings from the temple.
Raymond: Well, thank you very much.
Prabhupada: For your son and father-in-law.
Raymond: So we decided to get all of my father-in-law's friends. He doesn't know yet, and I'm supposed to pick him up, you see, and I was supposed to be there over an hour ago.
Prabhupada: So you must go on. Oh, yes. It is very nice. It is very nice function. The father-in-law, the grandson. (chuckles) Give some prasadam for them also.
Madhudvisa: He invited everyone over to one, Ugrasrava's, house one night. We had a big party, and Wally came and Raymond came, and they became very much addicted to prasadam. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Make his father-in-law also interested.
Raymond: Well, he was here on Sunday. He came down on Sunday.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes? So this Krsna consciousness movement is very nice. We can make friend anyone. So you are going? Thank you very much for your coming.
Raymond: Thank you very much for your time. You've been most gracious and kind with us. I hope you have a nice trip.
Prabhupada: Thank you. Hare Krsna.
Madhudvisa: He's coming back in January too. Maybe then we can have a longer meeting.
Prabhupada: It is very nice place. I wish to stay here but I have got so many branches I have to go.
Raymond: Good night.
Prabhupada: Good night. Hare Krsna.
Guest 1: I think you must be very happy to see what's happened in Melbourne.
Prabhupada: Yes, I am very happy. This house is quite suitable for our purpose.
Guest 1: They looked very hard and for a long time.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest 1: And they had a lot of difficulty. This is one of the things that I imagine, you know, the story that the Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Church owned this property. And it was almost by devious means that it was acquired.
Prabhupada: They did not want to give us?
Guest 1: He didn't want to sell direct, like that. Because that beautiful building across there, I think you saw photos...
Amogha: The convent. Srila Prabhupada went through the convent.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Guest 1: They, we found out or the suggestion was... Because there were little power groups in that church that possibly the senior people don't know about, but they objected for some reason, which is very hard to understand.
Prabhupada: In London we wanted to purchase one church that was not working. In London. But when we approached that priest, the in-charge, not directly to me but one of my disciples, he informed him that "I shall better set fire in this church. Still, I shall not give to the Krsna consciousness."
Guest 1: That's one reason that the main religion has possibly become bad in the eyes of non-religious people when they hear something like that. Because you could assume that whatever religion, if a person was religious...
Prabhupada: Religion means God. God is one.
Guest 1: ...that that should aid all religions. And the more Krsnas there are, the more other religious people might benefit. Yet they can't see it.
Prabhupada: According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, religion means the law given by God. Just like law means the act given by the state. You cannot manufacture law, I cannot manufacture law. From that purport (?) give me. So Mr. Raymond has gone?
Devotee: Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: He has taken some prasada?
Devotee: Yes, we gave him some prasada.
Prabhupada: Give him.
Guest 2: Bob's in a similar position almost to Raymond. His wife's expecting a baby any minute.
Prabhupada: Oh. That's nice. How many children he has got?
Guest 1: Four. Thank you.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Putra-hinam grham sunyam. Family without children, it is vacant. But people, now they are under this consciousness that family without children. No, that is not. Family means with children. Otherwise it is desert. Putra-hinam grham sunyam. Sunyam means zero.
Guest 1: One thing I wondered about. In our terms sometimes you can find a person that you admire or who you believe does good, but he professes to be an atheist. I'm thinking about a person like Bertrand Russell.
Prabhupada: No, our ideas are standard. We are not manufacturing any idea. Just like whatever we speak, immediately we give evidence from the sastra. That is our standard. We accept standard idea, and the standard idea means the ideas given by God. That is standard. There is no mistake. There is no cheating, There is no illusion. Any idea we form, that is prone to these four defects. One defect is that we are prone to commit mistake. We are prone to be illusioned. And our senses are imperfect. So being subjected to mistaken idea, illusioned idea, our senses being imperfect, if we want to give some law, that is cheating.
Guest 1: So the answer to every question is in there.
Prabhupada: Yes. I do not pose myself that I am perfect. These ideas I am giving, that is perfect.
Guest 1: Is that open to interpretation or is it very... Can two people read...
Prabhupada: Interpretation... When you do not understand the word, then you can give interpretation. Otherwise there is no chance of interpreting.
Guest 1: If two devotees read that, the meaning is the same, but...
Prabhupada: Two devotees. Just like you are eating this sweet. So everyone will say, "Yes, he is eating sweet." And where is the question of interpretation? Everyone knows that you are eating sweet. So if I say this gentleman is eating sweet, so who will object to this? "No, no, my interpretation is different." What is that interpretation? This is a fact.
Guest 2: Yes, but I think that's a simple example.
Prabhupada: So when you can understand directly, where is the question of interpretation? You cannot give interpretation.
Guest 1: I've read some of these, which are very difficult to understand. And I have seen the boys with writing in there which is help in their understanding of it where you could say fifteen words, but to a simple reading of them, they're very complicated.
Prabhupada: No, this is... Therefore purport is given there. The explanation is given there. And even after that, if one cannot understand, then we are here. The devotees are there. I am there. There is no difficulty.
Guest 2: But I think it's easier if you have a teacher.
Prabhupada: Of course, everything requires teacher. So we are giving the purport, that means we are teaching. Not only the verse is there, the translation is there, but we giving a purport. And even from the verse. Just like this verse, samo damah, yes.
Amogha:
samo damas tapah sau
cam ksantir arjavam eva ca
jnanam vijnanam astikyam
brahma-karma svabhava-jam
 [Bg. 18.42]
Prabhupada: These are different words. You can understand what is the meaning of samah. Samah means controlling the mind. So damah means controlling the senses. If you first of all control the mind, then you can control the senses. Then samo damah sattvam.
Amogha: Tapah saucam.
Prabhupada: Tapah. Tapah, tapasya, austerity. Austerity. Then you have to consult what is the austerity? The austerity is, beginning of austerity is the sex control. That is austerity, brahmacarya. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. And that brahmacarya you can observe by following certain rules and regulations, Just like these people are following. In this way everything is there, clear. There is no interpretation. You cannot interpret the word water. Everyone knows what is water means. Where is the question of interpreting? Therefore sometimes reference to the teacher is necessary. Otherwise every word is clear. There is no question of interpretation. Now they are irrelevantly interpreting the first verse of Bhagavad-gita. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1]. So they are interpreting Kuruksetra means this body. And where is the chance of such interpretation? Kuruksetra, the land, is still there. Just before coming here I went to Kuruksetra. So why you should interpret, "Kuruksetra means this body"?
This is wrong interpretation. The law of interpretation is there when you cannot understand directly. Then you are allowed to interpret. Otherwise there is no necessity of interpretation. But they are unnecessarily interpret for their own purpose. That has become a fashion, to interpret Bhagavad-gita in his own way. Where is the chance?
Guest 1: This, I think I remember from last year that the boys in New Zealand seemed to have a different interpretation of some of them, didn't they?
Prabhupada: Yes, that may be, but we don't agree with that. We don't agree with that. Everyone has got the right to interpret in a different way, but we have to accept parampara, the disciplic succession. Just like I have given one burfi. Everyone knows it is burfi, and if somebody interprets, "It is stone," so it will not be accepted. Everyone knows it is burfi, nice sweetmeat. Why shall I call it stone? But if somebody says, "I can interpret in this way," he can say, but it will not be accepted.
Amogha: Maybe you'd like to come to aratrika. It's just starting, aratrika ceremony.
Guest 2: I'd like to very much, but we'd better go home because...
Amogha: You've got something on? They have things that they have to do.
Guest 1: Later, at 8 o'clock, I've got a meeting, some people coming to my home. My wife's away having a holiday, and our youngest boy's come home, and I'm taking that chance to work long hours to get a lot of things done.
Prabhupada: What is holiday?
Guest 1: For the school children, yes.
Amogha: Schools are not in session all over Australia.
Prabhupada: This is winter holiday?
Guest 1: There are three terms. This is the first term holiday.
Amogha: They divide the year into three parts, and after each part they have a holiday.
Prabhupada: We have got in India two period holiday, summer holiday and Puja holiday. There is a season for worshiping different types of demigods. That is called Puja. And in India when the summer becomes too hot, that is holiday. (guests prepare to leave) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Guest 1: I wish you a good trip and a happy trip.
Prabhupada: Thank you.
Guest 1: And also I hope that the building in Sydney eventuates.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest 1: That you will see or hear about tomorrow morning.
Amogha: They're working on that tonight.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Off this light. (end)
 
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Two Lawyers and Guest -- May 22, 1975, Melbourne
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.

Friday, November 29, 2013

How to Experience the Supreme

"How to Experience the Supreme"

June 9, 1974


download
  flash player

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada 

Jyotirmayi: Mr. (indistinct) has made very good progress, because before he was always teaching impersonalist Bhagavad-gita, and now you see he is wearing a dhoti, he's coming to chant Hare Krsna, he's coming for Srimad-Bhagavatam classes, and he teaches personalist Bhagavad-gita. But he still thinks a little bit that maybe above there is something impersonalism. But there is good progress. (laughter)Prabhupada: Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahman, Paramatma... He understands English?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan, last stage. First realization impersonal Brahman, then localized Paramatma, and then Personality of Godhead.
(Jyotirmayi translates into French)
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, perhaps you can explain what Mr. Priest's qualifications are.
Jyotirmayi: Yeah, Mr. (indistinct) is a priest, and he has been for a long time in India, a Christian priest, and he was very glad to know what you are doing here. Krsna consciousness was...
Prabhupada: In India, where did you stay?
Priest: In Poona.
Prabhupada: Poona, oh. How long you were there?
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: Oh, then you are Indian. (laughter)
Priest: Half of my time, yes, I was in India, half my life.
Prabhupada: Twenty-five years in a place means you domicile. Yes, naturally.
Priest: Did you come to Poona?
Prabhupada: Once I went. One friend took me there. I stayed in that Gujarati hotel, near the station I think.
Priest: Yes, not far.
Prabhupada: Poona is nice place. Climate is nice.
Priest: For studies it's a beautiful place, and particularly for Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are many good scholars.
Priest: Many scholars, many institutions, and also the society is rich.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maharastrian, they are educated, advanced.
Priest: How do you find your disciples here in Europe?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: I shouldn't ask personal question.
Prabhupada: No, it is not personal. It is..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult is so nice that it can attract anyone.
Priest: It does, it does.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only here in Europe -- in Africa, in Canada, in China, in Japan, everywhere. In, what is called, Philippines. We have got everywhere center -- Australia.
Priest: In Bombay also you have got?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, Bombay just now we have got a very big place.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: And we are constructing a big hotel, strictly vegetarian prasadam. We are at Juhu quarter. (someone enters room) Hare Krsna. Jaya. So you can give him a chair, this one. You can come forward here.
Bhagavan: You have been to India? You've worked there.
Priest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was twenty-five years there.
Priest: Twenty-five years.
Prabhupada: He is Indian. (laughter)
Priest: I was... I mean I am still a bhakta of Krsna, but not..., of the old tradition of Maharastra the (indistinct) of Pandarapura, Vithoba.
Prabhupada: Vaisnava.
Priest: (indistinct) Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna, that Viththala, Viththala. Viththala, there is... So they are Vaisnava.
Priest: And it's the main... (indistinct) center of Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Yes, Pandarapura.
Priest: When I went to India twenty-five years ago, I first studied for four years at this pilgrimage.
Prabhupada: What was your subject matter studying?
Priest: I was studying for a thesis, a doctorate thesis, this pilgrimage, the story of the pilgrimage and everything of the brahmana pilgrimage. And as you know, it was one of the main bhakti tradition in Maharastra, Orissa, Jnanesvara.
Prabhupada: Tukarama, Tukarama.
Priest: Tukarama.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Priest: I have proceeded to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Tukarama is in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: He was initiated by Caitanya. His avanga, avanga, that is written there, he was initiated by Caitanya.
Priest: It's a great bhakti tradition.
Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Find out. If we want to know God, then we have to accept the process recommended by God. That is bhakti.
Pradyumna:
bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
 [Bg. 18.55]
"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: So in another place also it is said, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], mam evaisyasi, asamsaya. "If you want to enter in the kingdom of God, always think of Me," man-mana, "and you just become My devotee and worship Me and offer your obeisances." These four principles, it is not difficult. To achieve the kingdom of God is not at all difficult. It is very easy. Anyone can go. But they are not prepared to accept the process. That is their misfortune. Otherwise, always thinking of God. We are thinking something, but the thinking should be turned towards God. That is our teaching. They are always chanting Hare Krsna. So by uttering the word Krsna, immediately you think of Krsna. This is the process. It is not difficult at all. And you can always think of, just like these boys have been taught, walking on the street, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama... Just like we have got this. I am talking with you, but two minutes I talk with you, as soon as I stop, I chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama... What is the difficulty? It is simply practice. No difficulty. And simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna, everyone can see how these young boys and girls, they are not very old, they have taken to it quite young, but they have forgotten everything. They do not go to cinema, do not go to hotel, no dancing. Dancing they have got -- Krsna dancing, always. Painting they have got, singing they have got, arts, literature. We have got eighty books like this, four hundred pages. Pure life -- no meat eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling. Finished. And it is guaranteed if you remain in this attitude, Krsna says that "Surely you come back to me." What is the second line? Man-mana...
Pradyumna: Mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam atmanam mat-parayanah.
Prabhupada: In another place it is said asamsaya, that is in the Eighteenth Chapter. So to go back to home, back to Godhead, is very easy, but people will not take to it. They are stubborn; they will stick here, the miserable life, material life. This is the difficulty. Otherwise, God can be achieved very easily. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yukta(tamo matah)
 [Bg. 6.47]
The first-class yogis. Actually no education required. Simply God has given us the tongue and the ear. So it's Hare Krsna, tongue, and hear with the ear. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir: by hearing, the sound enters into the heart. In this way you become purified, mind is cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. It is very scientific and very easy. And we are recommending -- "we" means Caitanya Mahaprabhu -- He says that "You chant the name of God." Now, if somebody thinks "Krsna is Hindu God, why shall I chant?" it doesn't matter. You chant your conception of God. What is the name of God in Christianity? Is there any name?
French Man: Jehovah.
Prabhupada: Jehovah?
French Man: He has no name in Christianity.
Prabhupada: Then take this name. (laughter) If you have no name, then take this name. Where is the harm? And they are taking Hare Krsna, what is the harm? Every religion believes..., not believes; it is fact that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God, is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion?
Bhagavan: Buddhist religion?
Priest: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament.
Prabhupada: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible.
Priest: You have got many idea of God.
Prabhupada: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God.
Priest: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: And this experience is different for many people.
Prabhupada: You experience... Because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect.
Priest: But who is to say...
Prabhupada: That is... Yes.
Priest: ...what is a perfect experience?
Prabhupada: No. Even we are imperfect, with our... As far as our knowledge goes, generally, just like the Christians, they say "God is great." Is it not?
Priest: That is rather the Muslims.
Prabhupada: Huh? That is Muslim.
Priest: Allah.
Prabhupada: Allah akbar. So what is the conception of God of the Christian?
Priest: As you said, it's impersonal, trans-personal, what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship.
Prabhupada: Yes, relationship means that He must be a person.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why? Otherwise how you can...
Priest: It is beyond a person.
Prabhupada: Beyond the person... Just like we have got experience: when you call relation, then relation means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation.
Priest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So relation means two person -- one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation, that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person.
Priest: Yeah, but what we don't... We don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself.
Prabhupada: What is that, relation itself? Explain.
Priest: It's when you are two together, when the master...
Prabhupada: Then two together means person. As soon as you...
Priest: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation.
Prabhupada: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two persons.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no?
Priest: You see, I have got relation...
Prabhupada: We are two person.
Priest: ...with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation as we have got relation?
Priest: Certainly.
Prabhupada: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise.
Priest: Yes, but I don't make God the object of relationship.
Prabhupada: Then what...
Priest: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship.
Bhagavan: A relation with who?
Priest: Relation with anything.
Bhagavan: That is God?
Priest: That is God.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: He thinks relationship with anything means God.
Prabhupada: Anything?
Bhagavan: Yes, anything.
Priest: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am (indistinct) relationship with you, then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter...
Prabhupada: But in your Bible you say, "O Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible "O Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father.
Priest: But...
Prabhupada: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son.
French Man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the (indistinct) of this country. There are two main conceptions -- the Oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western...
Prabhupada: No, we are not talking of any particular church. We are just trying to understand the word relation. If you go to particular church, then another will give another church, another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship. So in the Bible it is clearly said, "O Father," so the relation is father and son.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no?
Priest: You have to... I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced but what is my own experience.
Prabhupada: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that... It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "O Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son. So there is...
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: You say no, but any man will understand that. You may have your own opinion, that is a different thing.
Priest: But we have to have the opinion which we experience.
Prabhupada: What is that experience? You ask, "Father, give us our daily bread," and that is experience. God is giving everyone maintenance. That is our actual relationship. In the Vedas also it is said, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). That is the God. God is also a person as you are person, I am person, but He is the chief person. Nityo nityanam, the chief, the Supreme. In the dictionary it is said Supreme Being. We are all beings, and He is Supreme Being. How He is supreme? Eka, that one; God is one. Bahunam vidadhati kaman. He supplies the necessities of everyone's life. That is very good experience, we are getting everything from God. And the Christians also pray, "Give us our daily bread." So I don't find any difference between the statement in the Vedas and the Bible. God is the Supreme Person, and you make relationship with Him any way -- as master and servant, as friend and friend, as father and son, or as husband and wife. So somehow or other we are related with God, this way or that way. The husband also maintains the wife.
Priest: I don't think so. I mean...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is your personal opinion. But...
Priest: Not opinion; experience.
Prabhupada: So what is that experience? Tell me what is that experience?
Priest: That God is beyond all our experience.
Prabhupada: Then what is your experience? You have no experience. If it is beyond your experience, then you have no experience.
Priest: Personally, of course, but...
Prabhupada: Then you cannot explain. You cannot, because you have no experience.
Priest: But if you know what you can't explain...
Prabhupada: No, no, if you can't explain means you do not know.
Priest: You don't think an illusion (indistinct) relationship.
Prabhupada: No, no, not illusion. If you cannot explain, that means you do not know. If you know, you must explain. That is knowing, that is knowledge.
Priest: Yeah, but that knowledge is very (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Then you cannot preach. As a priest you cannot preach because you do not know, it is not within your experience.
Priest: That's why I don't preach.
Prabhupada: That's all right, then... (laughter) That is another thing. But as soon as you say "beyond your experience," that means you have no experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: So you cannot explain. That is all right.
Priest: That means I have the experience...
Prabhupada: But...
Priest: ...that my experience is limited...
Prabhupada: But that's all right.
Priest: ...and God is unlimited.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That I admit.
Priest: Therefore, I cannot anyhow have experience of God.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Just like you know...
Priest: And nobody can.
Prabhupada: ...you do not know me, you have no experience about me.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: But if I say, "I am like this," you will get experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: If I live with you for some time...
Prabhupada: Suppose if you are thinking of me, "Swamiji might have one thousand dollars," so you can imagine, go on imagining, and that is not correct. But if I say, "No, I have got one million dollars," then you get the experience.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why no?
Priest: I will get the experience of you when we are living together.
Prabhupada: That means you cannot talk with God.
Priest: Of course not.
Prabhupada: But if anyone can talk?
Priest: Well, if it is his own experience, I have no objection.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Priest: But my experience is that you cannot...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Therefore, our experience is we take experience from God. We don't imagine. That is our process.
Priest: Yeah, that is your faith. You must have faith for that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Krsna is speaking about Himself, so we are taking Bhagavad-gita as it is. So direct experience. Taking experience "I am like this." Just like Krsna says,
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-sa...
 [Bg. 10.8]
Find out this verse.
Pradyumna:
aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah
 [Bg. 10.8]
"I am the source of all the spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise, who know this perfectly, engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."
Prabhupada: Just see. This experience.
Priest: Yeah, but who has written the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: God.
Priest: I mean, you need to have faith for that.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Bhagavan: You must have faith to believe that God wrote the Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Why faith? God is God. Why faith?
Priest: Because, you know, I have been living in...
Prabhupada: No, no, you have no experience you have said. You have no experience.
Priest: No, I have not said. You said I did.
Prabhupada: No, you said that God is beyond your experience, you said.
Priest: A real swami listen first if he wants to (indistinct).
Prabhupada: First of all let us consider ourself. You said that God is beyond your experience.
Priest: That's right. That is my experience.
Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right. That means I am talking with you. Therefore, you have no experience.
Priest: Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: You say God is beyond your experience, you say.
Priest: Yeah, and I have that experience that God is beyond experience, because I found out that all my experience does not mean God.
Prabhupada: But if you say God is beyond your experience, that you have no experience of God. This is clear meaning. Why do you go round about?
Priest: No, you don't..., you see...
Prabhupada: Then it is a bit difficult.
Priest: I have always told that the duty of the swami is to listen and to understand, and you don't seem to listen and to understand. You misunderstand.
Prabhupada: No, no, I use... First of all let us... Why misunderstand? You say that you have no experience of God.
Priest: No, I never said that.
Prabhupada: Then tell me your experience. That I want to know.
Priest: That every time I had an experience of God, and first I went through the bhakta, and I was a bhakta for a long, long time, then I found out that God was beyond my experience.
Prabhupada: That means you have no experience. How can I talk with you?
Priest: That the image of God, whether you call it Krsna or Rama or Nrsimha or any of the avatara... And you know, near our place in Poona in Amenagar(?), there was a swami who called himself an avatara, and...
Prabhupada: That anyone can say. I can say third avatara, he can say fourth avatara.
Priest: So if anyone can say...
Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say "I am avatara."
Priest: Exactly.
Prabhupada: So...
Priest: So how can we have faith of anyone who said he was an avatara?
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatara. We have got documents who is avatara.
Priest: Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is... Krsna is avatari. He is the origin. That is stated here, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. You know Sanskrit? What is the meaning of aham sarvasya prabhavah? "I am the source of all avatara."
Priest: Yeah, but who has written that?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Priest: Who has written that? Srila Vyasa.
Prabhupada: Anywhere he has written. Krsna, Krsna has written. Krsna has spoken, Vyasadeva has written, and it is accepted.
Priest: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it (inaudible).
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress.
Priest: Ah, you have to go beyond.
Prabhupada: As soon as you... Just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother and you believe that "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect, that's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father.
Priest: Yeah, but you know...
Prabhupada: If you say, "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know.
Priest: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming either in India or (inaudible)...
Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say...
Priest: ...that "I am an avatara" or "I am Guru Maharaj-ji" or "I am," so to say, "Meher Baba or Satya Sai Baba," so many babas exist, you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really baba. They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretends to be avatara and they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: But we don't believe them.
Priest: No, but they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: Many disciples, that is another thing.
Priest: Millions.
Prabhupada: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody... So many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity.
Priest: And if I had said that...
Prabhupada: It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin vetti mam tattvatah
 [Bg. 7.3]
Krsna does not say that "millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is parampara. Just like in India -- you have been in India -- there are acaryas: Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Caitanya. If the acarya accept, then we accept. This is our process. We don't go the millions; we see the quality. Ramanujacarya, high quality devotee; Madhvacarya, high quality devotee; Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We want to see the quality man. He says yes. So Sankaracarya says "Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Ramanujacarya says "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvacarya says "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Tarko apratisthah. Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna, nasav munir yasya matam na bhinnam. A muni, a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Big personalities, acaryas -- that is the process. Acaryopasanam. What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Acaryopasanam, we have to understand through the acaryas. That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. We accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Krsna in the Tenth Chapter. Find out, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Read it.
Pradyumna:
param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
 [Bg. 10.12]
Prabhupada: What is that translation?
Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: So Krsna says, and He is confirmed by Vyasadeva, Asita, Narada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone says "I am avatara, I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the acaryas, therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. When mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. Arjuna says that: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is all. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and Krsna comes and He is accepted by all the great acaryas, then our business is perfect. So give them prasada.
Bhagavan: Yes. I have prasadam in my office.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186].
Bhagavan: Have you seen our Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: He saw our all books. He is a scholar.
Devotee: This is a translation of Bhagavata Purana.
Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Devotee: In sixty volumes we will translate this.
Bhagavan: We have Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: Here it is.
Devotee: And the Caitanya-caritamrta, all volumes.
Bhagavan: Would you like to see some of the pictures?
Priest: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: These have been painted by our devotees. The meeting of Lord Caitanya and Sanatana Gosvami.
Prabhupada: The American devotees, they have painted. We have got a very big painting department. All these pictures, they are painted by our devotees.
Bhagavan: This is one of our other specialties.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asya upajayate.
Devotee: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. It's a description of the activities of Lord Krsna. That's in two volumes.
Priest: It's a tremendous work.
Prabhupada: Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world.
Devotee: This is Nectar of Devotion by a chief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the Puranas, and he supports devotional service.
Priest: This is what you use for your devotional service?
Devotee: They're a model.
Bhagavan: We have many copies downstairs. You can take. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Krsna and distributing of prasadam. And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupada's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kirtana in the temple.
Priest: Yes. This is why I am coming,
Bhagavan: And no one is from India.
Priest: I could see, because in India you don't find that.
Jyotirmayi: Mr. Chenique(?) wanted to ask you some questions. (indistinct) French and I can translate.
Mr. Chenique: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking what do you think about Herbert, Mr. Herbert that you met in Geneva, because he has been following his teaching in the last three days, and he would like to know what you think about what he is teaching.
Bhagavan: Do you remember this gentleman?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Bhagavan: He was the one who wrote that book.
Prabhupada: Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Mr. Herbert?
Bhagavan: Yes. He's asking your opinion of him.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is a scholar, but he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: So I met him. He is a good gentleman, scholar, but he is a Mayavadi, he is impersonalist.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But if he... He has already written one book. He has presented me, that Krsna...
Devotee: The Yoga of Love.
Prabhupada: The Yoga of Love. So he has many times repeated the word "Krsna." That will benefit him.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in the Christian philosophy that the conception of God as the person, the personal God, and God as the divine essence. So he is asking...
Prabhupada: God is person, then? What did he say?
Jyotirmayi: Then he said that so is it not that God, the person, this divine essence, is a superperson, an evolved person, and not exactly somebody impersonal. Like he said that in Sankaracarya's philosophy there is the conception of tat. So is not this tat conception, this divine essence, this superperson...
Prabhupada: Yes, He is divine essence. God is divine essence, just like you have volumes of milk and you churn it, then you get so much butter. So the butter is the essence of the milk. Similarly, the spirit is vast, all-pervading. The example, another example, is just like the sunshine universally spread, very big. Then you concentrate the sunshine, it is sun globe. And if you still concentrate, you will see within the sun globe there is sun-god. So he is the essence of this light, the sunshine light, the sun globe light, and the person -- sun-god, Vivasvan, he is person -- he is the essence among all this light. That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. The whole creation means expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna. Yasya prabha prabhavato [Bs. 5.40]. By expansion of the bodily rays of Krsna, this Brahman, yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam, tad brahma [Bs. 5.40]. That Brahman. Brahman is..., just like the sunshine is the expansion of the bodily rays of sun-god.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And in Bhagavata also it is stated,
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
 [SB 1.2.11]
The Absolute Truth is one, but it is realized in different angles of vision: Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], "I am the origin of everything -- Brahman, Paramatma, everything, Bhagavan." Aham sarvasya prabhavah. Sarvasya means including everything: Brahman, Visnu, myself, the world manifested, everything.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: You take that sweet preparation.
Mr. Sheni: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He is asking if it is possible for young Christians... Because each time he has been coming he has been bringing with him people, you know, Christian who have been chanting Hare Krsna, with him. So he is asking if it is possible for them to chant the name God, that in fact is not really a name, by the name Krsna, because according to what you are explaining, God is Krsna. So can they chant the name of Krsna?
Prabhupada: Krsna is God. Krsna is God. God is the idea of greatness. That is Brahman. Or you can say also person, but not the particular person. God means, the Sanskrit word is isvara, the controller. So everyone is controller to some extent. In his own atmosphere he is a controller, as I am controller of my disciples. So the conception of God is there, but I am not the Supreme God. Therefore, there are two words. We use the word "Godhead," "the Supreme God." That is explained in the Brahma-samhita, isvara, God. Everyone is God; that is another thing. But isvarah paramah, the Supreme God, is Krsna.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Supreme. We have got experience of isvara. Just like I said, everyone is isvara, everyone is a controller. So I am personal, I am also isvara of my body. I am controlling my body. So in that way, everyone is isvara. But these isvaras, they are controlled by another isvara. We are isvara, but I am controlled by another isvara. But isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1], He is isvara but He is not controlled by anyone. That is paramah, supreme. From the dictionary meaning also we can under..., being and Supreme Being. We are being, but we are controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being, he is controlled by another being. In this way, you go. If you find out some being who is not controlled by anyone, he is Supreme Being. This is the idea.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Therefore, it is described in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more controller beyond Me." Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti. Nobody. This final controller. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. And in Brahma-samhita, isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha means form, body. Govinda adi-purusam, sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], the cause of all causes. Mattah parataram nanyat.
Yogesvara:
mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva
 [Bg. 7.7]
"O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."
Prabhupada: So "Nobody is superior to Me," there is nobody controller. Krsna is not controlled by anyone. Therefore, He is isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. That is final God. Otherwise God... You will find, you are more powerful than me, he is more powerful than you, and somebody is more powerful than him, go on, go on, seeing, seeing. But when you come to Krsna, nobody is more powerful than Him. Mattah parataram. Parataram means better or higher principle, no.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Then it is confirmed by Arjuna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan, purusam [Bg. 10.12]. "You are person" -- purusam means person -- sasvatam, "eternally." Then he says that "It is not that You have said. I see from Your instruction, and it is confirmed by Vyasadeva, by Devala, by Narada." Then it is final.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: The Vedas say, therefore, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. In order to understand that science, you have to approach the guru. Vyasadeva is the original guru. He is instructor of Vedic knowledge. Then from Vyasadeva, acaryas. So this is the instruction of the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham: in order to experience that transcendental thing, you have to approach to the authorities, gurum eva abhigacchet. And who is guru? Srotriyam, one who has heard from his guru, authorized person, srotriyam, brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], and firmly convinced in the science of God.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
(Prabhupada tells someone to open window)
Bhagavan: How does one get the experience of personal existence of God?
Prabhupada: That is already explained. Why did you hear? We are explaining this same subject, you did not hear?
Bhagavan: Oh, yes, I was just asking.
Prabhupada: You are asking me or asking him?
Bhagavan: No, for his benefit. You were talking experience.
Priest: Yes.
Bhagavan: So we want to understand how to experience that Supreme Person.
Priest: No. I went through that experience, and I would like... May I say something upon what he said? When you say is it possible for a young Christian to also follow the Hare Krsna, I said I would like much more to do so. (Has brief conversation in French with Mr. Chenique)
Jyotirmayi: He is explaining that what he would like, that all these young Christian that he knows, it's not that he wants them to stop Christianity but to take in Krsna consciousness what is missing in Christianity to help them in their own development.
Prabhupada: Nothing is missing. Only, if I be frank enough, they are not following Christianity.
Jyotirmayi: (French) They said that then if Christianity is complete, then what is the need of coming here? What is missing there that we would find here?
Prabhupada: To tell you that you are not following. (laughter)
Priest: But then there is no need to dress as you dress.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Why do you dress in that way which is an Indian way and not the European way?
Prabhupada: Then why Christian go there?
Priest: They should not.
Prabhupada: Then we should not.
Priest: Not because they do something wrong that somebody else has to do something wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. Thing is that just like there are scholars, the scholars also go. Just like you are doing in India. Why did you go to India? Why did you go to India and live there and (indistinct)? Anyone can come to study, to learn how to teach. That is human society. You cannot say that "You don't come here." You cannot say.
Priest: I know, but for a European to dress as an Indian...
Prabhupada: No, no. Europeans go to India, and why the Indians should not come to Europe?
Priest: True.
Prabhupada: Then you cannot say that "Why you have come here?" You cannot say.
Jyotirmayi: No, no. He's saying why are we dressing like that, like Indians?
Prabhupada: I have not said that you dress like that. You like, you do it. Did I say that you do it?
Priest: It's like the Indian Catholic priest dressing like a (indistinct) priest or like a European priest. I mean, they look as if they had a disguise with them.
Prabhupada: No, no, just like when the English were ruling, English national. So the Englishmen never said that "You dress like Englishmen," but they automatically dressed. You know very well. They do like that. The Englishmen, they went there to get some money by trade, by politics. But they never went there to change their dress. But they thought that "If I dress myself like Englishman, I will be more honored." That is their point. Similarly, we never preach that "You dress like this." But the student, they like this dress. That's all right. What is the wrong there?
Priest: It's not wrong. It's funny.
Prabhupada: Rather these girls, when they dress in Indian way, they look more beautiful. That you will have to admit. Yes. The same girl will dress in your...
Priest: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: So the girls, the women, they like to be more beautiful. So if by dressing in other way they look beautiful, why should you ask them not to do it?
Priest: Maybe for ladies and girls certainly, but for the dhoti and...
Prabhupada: But we are not concerned with the dress, we are concerned with the advancement of spiritual understanding, that's all.
Yogesvara: Jyotirmayi, is this the guest that was scheduled to come at seven o'clock?
Jyotirmayi: No, he's not here yet (indistinct).
Priest: Have you got any French literature of conception (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bhagavan: French literature. He's asking for French literature.
Jyotirmayi: He translated the Tukarama in French.
Prabhupada: Tukarama. Tukarama is great Vaisnava devotee of Maharastra. His movement was sankirtana movement.
Devotee: He was the one who was initiated by Lord Caitanya?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: This was southern India?
Priest: Maharastra.
Prabhupada: Maharastra, yes. Southwest.
Priest: For the north it is south (indistinct).
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, another thing that's stated in the Bible, in the Christians' philosophy, they say that God created man out of His own image. It's stated in the Bible. So therefore man has a form, why not God? Because it's stated there in the Bible.
Prabhupada: Yes. I think Bible is on the personal understanding of God. Christ says that he is son of God. Unless one is person, how he can beget a son?
Devotee: They talk about the trilogy -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It is compared like the Father...
Prabhupada: Bhagavan, Paramatma, and Brahman, yes. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11], it is the same idea. Brahman, Holy Ghost, is impersonal, but Son is person and God is also person. I do not know much about, but I have heard from Christians that there is assembly of God, and Lord Christ has got a seat by the side of God. Is not that explained?
Devotee: It's on His right hand.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: On his right side he's supposed to be seated.
Prabhupada: Yes. These are all personal ideas.
Devotee: And they say also, "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Devotee: "Hallowed be Thy name."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Devotee: They're praising the name of the Lord.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, we have got very regard, good regard, for Christianity. We take it as Vaisnavism. It is explained according to country, time. And the commandments are very nice. The first commandment is "Thou shall not kill," but that is not stopped in the Christian world. Therefore we say that the Christians are not following. Christianity is all right. Those who are professing Christianity, they are not following.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: Muhammadanism also Vaisnavism, because Muhammad says, "I am servant of God, Allah." So that is our conception, dasya-rasa, dasya. Santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya. So prayer, offering prayer, that is also bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam. Just like we are worshiping Deity and somebody is offering prayer -- both of them are approved. Prayer, vandanam. Dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam. So we don't say that this is bad and this is good. No. Both of them are bhakti. To worship the Deity or to offer prayer, the effect is the same. Effect is not different. Either of these nine processes,
sravanam kirtanam visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam
 [SB 7.5.23]
Either you follow all the nine principles or eight or six or seven, at least one, then you become perfect. That is our preaching. Just like Akrura, the example is given. Akrura got perfection simply by offering prayers. So I see when the Christian go to the church, in India I have seen, in Bombay especially, they kneel down and offer prayer. That's very good. We do not say that this is not approved. This is also approved. What is this Hare Krsna? This is also prayer. Hare Krsna, "O Krsna, O the energy of Krsna, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna. This is prayer. Repeatedly praying, "My Lord, the energy of Lord, kindly engage me in Your service." This is the meaning of Hare Krsna mantra. Just like you go to a mercantile firm with application, "Please give me some service. Give me some service," the same thing, appealing to God and His energy, "Please engage me in your service." So that is vandana. So vandana, and Christian also they pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So this is also good, but it is material, asking something for material satisfaction. And here, Hare Krsna, asking something for satisfaction of Krsna, "Engage me is Your service," little advanced because God is supplying bread to everyone, even to the cats and dogs.
So that is also good, and it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, arto artharthi jnani ca catur-vidha bhajante mam. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, artah. Artah means distress, artah, one who is distressed. "I have no food, sir, my dear Lord. Kindly give me some food." So he is distressed, so he is praying to God because he is pious. The Communists say, "Why you are praying to God? You pray to us, the government. We shall give you enough bread." The Communist propaganda is like that. They send the people to the church, "So you pray." So they pray. "Have you got bread?" They say, "No, sir." "Now pray to us." "Give us, sir," and he gives hundreds of breads. In this way, they are making atheist. Because common man cannot argue, neither they know so much logic. But if there is some intelligent man, he will ask immediately that "Wherefrom you have got this bread? Who has given you the wheat? That you have not manufactured; that is given by God." So actually God gives, but the Communists take the credit that "I give." This is the misconception. If God does not supply you... Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman, He is supplying for everyone. So if He does not supply, then what your bakery machine will do? It is useless. So people have lost the intelligence in the Communist countries. They think that these government men, they have brought the bread, not God. In this way, they are gradually becoming atheist. But the central point is God. We are preaching the central point is God. You call Him by any name, it doesn't matter, either you call Jehovah or Krsna or something, Allah, that doesn't matter. But you accept the authority of God and try to love God. This is our mission. And we say God is person. Impersonal feature, that is a feature only. Just like sun-god is a person and the sunshine is one of the feature of the sun-god. The sunshine is not final. You have to penetrate to the sunshine and reach the sun globe and go within the globe and see that there is the sun-god. But that requires strength how to enter into the sun globe and see this. But there is the information in the Bhagavad-gita: imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha [Bg. 4.1], "I first of all instructed this yoga system of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god." The sun-god is there in the sun planet, and if you have got strength, you can go there and see. But you cannot go, although it is material. So similarly, in the spiritual world there is the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Being, He is spiritual, concentrated, essence of light. That is aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. He is the origin of everything. And He says, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Find out this verse. Find out. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, tadatmanam srjamy aham.
Pradyumna:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
 [Bg. 4.7]
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself."
Prabhupada: So at least in the human society, everyone must have understanding of God, that is expected. It is not expected in the society of cats and dogs because they are animals. The human being, dharmasya glanih, there is dharma, some sort of religious system. And religious system means to understand God. That's all. Just like to become a lawyer means to understand the laws of the state. Similarly, religious system means the process by which one can understand God. And that is the summary of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religious system which trains the followers to understand God and love Him. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir, ahaituky apratihata [SB 1.2.6]. If somebody says, "Oh, it is a very great thing to understand God and to love Him," they are thinking it is not possible. No. The answer is ahaituky apratihata. It can be learned by anyone. It is not checked by any material condition. If one wants to know what is God and to love Him, the path is open for everyone. It does not require high intelligence, high education, high culture. No. Anyone. The process is sravanam, the beginning. One has to hear. One may be fool number one, it doesn't matter. No education, it doesn't matter. Poor, doesn't matter. Black, doesn't matter. White, doesn't matter. You try to hear. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Therefore, Vedic injunction is in order to know, go to the bona fide guru and hear. Adau gurv-asrayam, sad-dharma prcchat. So even one has no experience, if he goes to the experienced man, experienced person, then you can understand and you can love God, and that is perfection of life. Tad viddhi... Find out this verse,
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
 [Bg. 4.34]
This tattva-darsinah means experience. What is that?
Pradyumna:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
 [Bg. 4.34]
 "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Pradyumna: "The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatam says: dharmam hi saksad-bhagavat-pranitam -- the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect."
Prabhupada: We have started a gurukula in Dallas. Small children are being trained up. Just like formerly there was brahmacari asrama. (aside:) Those ladies, they have come? No? If there are any inquiries. (break) ...record?
Devotee: Which record?
Bhagavan: From this afternoon, the recording.
Devotee: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Devotee: It's upstairs, or it's right out here.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You have got?
Devotee: I think so.
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He would like to know if to instruct young Christians to chant the name of Krsna will be helping them attain the highest perfection or if it is changing their religion.
Prabhupada: No. We are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." So if you have got the holy name of God, you can chant that.
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Man: (French)
Jyotirmayi: He said that in Christianity God has no name.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jyotirmayi: God has no name in Christianity, but the son of God has a name. And before they use for a long time, and everywhere they were saying the name of Jesus Christ.
Prabhupada: But they say that in Christianity there is a name of God. They say. No?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: But you said that His name be glorified.
Devotee: They say "Hallowed be Thy name."
Priest: But the name is not said.
Devotee: Yes.
Priest: Never said.
Devotee: Jesus said that "All I have taught you is not the total sum of the knowledge of God," he says, "but there is more to be told."
Prabhupada: That's all right. So if you have no name, then why don't you take this name, "Krsna"?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Prabhupada: What is the objection?
Man: (French)
Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis.
namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis
tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah
etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi
durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah
Bahudha: God has many names. If you are missing, so you can take one of the name. Krsna is one of the names, so what is the objection? And Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "In this name, all the potencies of God is there." Namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-sakti tatrarpita. That name is as powerful as God Himself. There is no difference between the name and God, because He is absolute. Here in the material world there is the difference between name and the person or the thing. If I am thirsty, if I simply chant "water, water, water," that will not appease my thirstiness. But the spiritual world, absolute, the name and the person is the same. Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh [Cc. Madhya 17.133]. Under the circumstances, if you are missing some name, so take this name. Why it should not be taken?
Jyotirmayi: (French)
Priest: Yeah, but you can take "Rama," you can take "Parasurama," you can take (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, any name, any name.
Priest: Krsna has no special...
Prabhupada: No. Special there is. In this way, it is recommended in the sastra, recommended in the sastra: harer nama. Harer means of God. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. So this is the... We have to chant the name of God. This is the prescription. This is Vaisnava.
Priest: Does it matter...
Prabhupada: Now, there are thousands and thousands of names, that we also admitted. At least we have got sahasra-nama, visnu sahasra. But in another place it is said, other Upanisad, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama... This name is recommended. Just like Agni Purana and Kalisantarana Upanisad, in this Vedic literature, this...
Priest: Yeah, but each Upanisad will recommend its own specific Deity, you know. Rama, as you say, Hare Rama. Or Siva.
Prabhupada: Yes, Rama is all right. Rama we chant. Hare Rama we chant. Hare Krsna and Hare Rama. Rama also we chant.
Priest: Or Siva. I mean, you see, in the Svetasvatara Upanisad.
Devotee: (Sanskrit)
Priest: I mean, what devotees? You have got bhakti also in the Saivite , all the others.
Pusta Krsna: The argument, if you say that it is not special, then you will say that you can chant any name.
Priest: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: We say that God's name is special, whatever name it is. Not that we eliminate God, saying He's not special. He is special. Whether you call Him by this authorized name or that authorized name, His name is special because it's nondifferent from Him. So not that we should just overlook the name of God because we're overlooking God. We do that, so we have to...
Prabhupada: Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Harer nama means God's name.
Priest: You see, for instance, in Christianity for a long time there was a bhakti, and this bhakti was devoted to the name of Jesus. So for a very long time you had that Jesus bhakti. And in your country, in America today, like you have got the Hare Krsna, you have got also the Jesus devotees. Now, this is also present in many places. And the name does not matter. There is no name who has got the... Because then you find again what...
Prabhupada: No. If Jesus is the name of God, then you can chant. If Jesus is the name of God. But Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, says that he is son of God. Of course, there is no difference between son and the father. That is another thing. But still, if I want the father, how by calling the name of son I can get the father? That is also another thing.
Priest: Yeah, but I mean, this is another point.
Prabhupada: But if you have got the father's name, why should you call Him by the son's name?
Priest: Yeah, but this is another discussion (indistinct). What we mean by father and son, you know, we don't mean it...
Prabhupada: That everyone's father and son is the same. If father says something and the son says... Just like in a big family, if the son orders something, it is as good as the father's order. That is our experience. But still, if you want to call the father, you will not get the father's response by calling the name of the son.
Priest: Jesus told us, "If you see me, you see the Father, because the Father cannot be seen." It was a common name. Yoshua was a common Jewish name.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Now, one thing is that if we are interested in chanting the name of God, if it is available, then why should I chant the name of the son?
Priest: No, it is not that question. The question is...
Devotee: Excuse me for interrupting, but one thing was that you suggested that the name of Krsna is a very common name...
Priest: Yeah.
Devotee: ...in the sense that many people may be called Krsna. But the Supreme God is also called Krsna. So if you chant His name, you derive the benefit even if you're not thinking of Him as the Supreme.
Priest: Yeah, but for the Christian the same. Jesus is a very common name.
Devotee: That's all right. We're saying chant. Our spiritual master is teaching "You chant the name of God." That's the important thing.
Prabhupada: If you think that Jesus Christ's name is also, you can chant, we have no objection. We say that you chant the holy name of God, whatever you have got. That's all right.
Priest: And for a Muslim you mean to chant Allah.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: Name Krsna, Allah, Jesus, (indistinct), what is the...
Prabhupada: Allah is not name. That is... It is not the name. It is just like the idea of God.
Priest: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Allah means God, isvara.
Priest: Allah means also (indistinct).
Prabhupada: But that is not the name. That is... Just like the President and Mr. Nixon. The President may be another person. Not only Nixon, but another person also may be. So President is the general understanding of the post. But still, one who occupies the post, he has got a name.
Priest: Do you know the Sufi?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Priest: Do you know the Sufis are Muslims (indistinct).
Prabhupada: No.
Priest: They are the great mystics of Islam, and they always address God as Allah. As we say...
Prabhupada: Allah means God.
Priest: Yes. It is the name of God for them. "Allah the all-knowing is great." Anybody who knows Islam knows that.
Prabhupada: Anyway, if one chants Allah or Jesus Christ, we have no objection. We don't say that you stop it. We say that you chant the holy name of God. If that name is of God, you chant.
Yogesvara: Yesterday, Srila Prabhupada, you gave the story, I think you said it was from the Padma Purana, about a Muslim who was attacked by a wild boar.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: He was attacked by a wild boar, and the boars for the Muslims are untouchable. So he was saying haram, haram, which means untouchable. And he was killed by that boar, but it was taken by higher authority that he was chanting "ha rama," which means "where is Lord Rama," so he derived liberation. Even unconsciously he was chanting and derived liberation.
Prabhupada: Although he did not mean Rama, he condemned the boar as haram, condemned. But the...
Priest: Same story is said in the bhakti tradition of Maharastra of the hunter.
Prabhupada: Yes, may be the same story.
Priest: Untouchable hunter who was chased by a boar and went to a tree, and then... It is a common story.
Prabhupada: Anyway, we are recommending "Chant the holy name of God." (end)
 
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Christian Priest -- June 9, 1974, Paris
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.