If we take care of the
circumstances, that is being done by the cats and dogs and hogs, everyone. Where
to find eatables, where to find sex, where to find shelter for sleeping, and how
to defense -- these circumstances are understood by the animals. There is no
need of education. Just like this morning I pointed out. The bird is catching a
small fish, "Fut!" He knows where to find out his eatable. And that you cannot
do. You also eat fish, but you jump over and take a fish. You cannot do that.
But he can do that. He is more expert than you. (guests chuckle) Yes. In the
troubled water, he is flying. He can see a small fish and immediately pick it
up. Can you do that? So he is more advanced in civilization. (laughter) He knows
his techniques. He is greater scientist than you. You cannot do this. A vulture
goes seven miles up, and he can see where is a dead body. So even amongst the
animals there are many expert scientists than our so-called scientists. But what
that science will help? That science may help how to eat, how to sleep, how to
have sex. That's all. And that is being done by the animals. It doesn't require
any advanced scientific knowledge. Real scientific knowledge is who is God, to
know. That is meant for human being, Not this where to find out a fish very
expertly. That is being done by a bird. Where is the use of scientists and
philosophers? Therefore in the Vedanta-sutra the indication is there that "Now
you have got this human form of life. Find out where is God." That is real
science. That we have set aside. That we do not touch. That we have left to the
sentimentalist. Why don't the scientists do not take up this work very
seriously, "If there is God, where He is? Who is God?" That is Krsna
consciousness movement, athato brahma jijnasa. So you are all learned scholars.
You join this movement and help us. To keep people in darkness, that is not
advancement of education. And education does not mean how to find out a fish
expertly. That is being done by the birds. Education means to solve the problem
of life. And what is the real problem? Birth, death, old age, and disease. That
is real problem. So where is the remedy for this birth, death, old age, and
disease? That is the instruction in the Bhagavad-gita,
janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-
maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na (ca) ham tesv avasthitah
[Bg. 9.4]
Maya tatam idam sarvam.Revatinandana:
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na (ca) ham tesv avasthitah
[Bg. 9.4]
maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah
[Bg. 9.4]
Translation: By
Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in
Me, but I am not in them.Purport: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is not
perceivable through the gross material senses. It is said that Lord Sri Krsna's
name, fame, pastimes, etc., cannot be understood by material senses. Only to one
who is engaged in pure devotional service under proper guidance is He revealed.
In the Brahma-samhita it is stated, premanjanacchurita.... One can see the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, always within himself and outside
himself if he has developed the transcendental loving attitude towards Him. Thus
for people in general He is not visible. Here it is said that although He is
all-pervading, everywhere present, He is yet not conceivable by the material
senses. But actually, although we cannot see Him, everything is resting in Him.
As we have discussed in the Seventh Chapter, the entire material cosmic
manifestation is only a combination of His two different energies, the superior
spiritual energy and the inferior material energy. Just as the sunshine is
spread all over the universe, the energy of the Lord is spread all over the
creation, and everything is resting in that energy.Yet one should not
conclude that because He is spread all over He has lost His personal existence.
To refute such argument the Lord says, "I am everywhere, and everything is in
Me, but still I am aloof." For example, a king heads a government which is but
the manifestation of the king's energy; the different governmental departments
are nothing but the energies of the king, and each department is resting on the
king's power. But still one cannot expect the king to be present in every
department personally. That is a crude example. Similarly, all the
manifestations that we see, and everything that exists both in this material
world and in the spiritual world, are resting on the energy of the Supreme
Personality of Godhead. The creation takes place by the diffusion of His
different energies, and, as is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, He is everywhere
present by His personal representation, the diffusion of His different
energies.Prabhupada: (aside:) Just wait. I am coming. [break] Krsna says
that "I am present everywhere by My energy. But personally I may not be here, in
here." But ultimately there is no difference between Krsna's energy and Krsna.
Wherever there is energy... Just like electricity. Everywhere there is. If you
are expert you can generate electricity from anywhere.Dr. Pore: Is it
possible to find Krsna in the Christian tradition or in Islam?Prabhupada:
Yes. Oh yes. Why not? Christians are seeking after God. You are going to the
church. "O God." You accept God has created everything. Here also He says,
"Everything is My energy." Where is the difference?Dr. Pore: The Christians
describe Krsna in a different way. Are they making mistakes?Prabhupada: That
is... Just like the heat, the question of energy, the heat 93,000,000's miles
away from the sun, heat may be different, and in the sun-globe the heat may be
different. But the heat is there; and light is there. The same thing: heat and
light is the same, but the degree of presentation of heat and light may be
different.Dr. Pore: Is chanting absolutely necessary in the
knowing...Prabhupada: That is the easiest way of being directly in touch
with God. Because God and God's name, they are absolute, so your chanting the
name of God means that directly in touch with God.Dr. Crossley: Why is that
better than loving your fellow man in the traditional
bhakti-marga?Prabhupada: But you love your fellow man, but you don't love
your fellow animal. You love man, but you send the animals to the
slaughter-house. That is your love.Dr. Wolfe: And the soldiers into the
battle to be killed.Prabhupada: No, now, first of all study this man then
you go to soldiers. Our love is limited. But if you love... Just like this tree.
There are many thousand leaves and flowers. So if you water to each of them,
then it will occupy the whole, your life. And if you are intelligent, just put
water onto the root. It will go everywhere. And if you are not intelligent, so
go on putting water every leaf, every... You see? Your whole body requires food.
That does not mean you have to supply food to the ears, to the eyes, to the
nails, to the rectum, to the... No. You give food to the stomach; it will be
distributed. So Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam. That we have already
studied. So if you love Krsna, then your love will be distributed. If you don't
love Krsna and if you love somebody else, then somebody will cry that "You do
not love me."Dr. Wolfe: May I ask a question, Srila
Prabhupada?Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand this. Just like Krsna
says, maya tatam idam sarvam: "I am expanded by My energy everywhere." So the
everywhere how you can go? You love Krsna, and your love will go everywhere. You
pay tax to the government, and the tax is distributed in so many departments. So
it is not your business to go every department and pay tax. Pay to the treasury
of the government; it will be distributed. This is intelligence. And if you say
that "Why shall I pay to the treasury house? I shall pay the this department,
that department, that department, that department," you can go on, but it will
never be sufficient, neither complete. So you may love humanity, but because you
do not love Krsna, therefore you do not love the cows; you send them to
slaughterhouse. So your love will remain defective. It will never be complete.
And if you love Krsna, then you will love even the small ant. You will be not
interested even to kill even an ant. That is real love.Dr. Pore: I agree
with you that we love very badly and we slaughter the animals.Prabhupada:
Yes. So badly love is not love.Dr. Pore: But is the converse true, that we
chant very well and that we can love Krsna even when we cannot love our fellow
people?Prabhupada: Oh, that... We are not... Chanting... We are also
working. It is not that we are simply sitting down and chanting. Because we are
chanting, therefore we are loving everyone. That is a fact. These Hare Krsna
chanters, they will never agree to kill any animal, even a plant, because they
know everything is part and parcel of God. Why unnecessarily one should be
killed? That is love.Dr. Pore: Love means never killing?Prabhupada:
There are so many things. It is one of the items. Yes, that is one of the... Do
you kill your own son? Why? Because you love him.Dr. Judah: Would you
explain the other side of it, the fact that, of course, the Bhagavad-gita was,
has its setting on a battlefield in which Krsna enjoins Arjuna to go out and
fight his kinsmen because it is his duty as a ksatriya.Prabhupada: Yes.
Because in the material world, for the maintenance of equilibrium of the
society, sometimes killing is necessary. Just like fight, war. When the enemy
has come to your country, you cannot sit idly; you must fight. But that does not
mean that you are allowed to kill everyone as you like. That is a special
circumstances when fighting must be there. Therefore the ksatriyas are required
to give protection. Like the government is keeping military, police, soldiers,
that does not mean government is after killing only. That department will be
utilized when there is necessity, not that government is meant for killing.
Government has other departments also. But this is also maintained. If there is
necessity, it should be utilized. So Krsna, when He is on the battlefield, that
was a necessity. He has got two business. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca
duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. Those who are demons, those who are disturbing elements,
they should be killed. And those who are honest and peaceful, they should be
maintained. But because it is material world, the world of duality, there are
good and evil, so you have to curb down the evil. Sometimes force is required.
So that killing is not bad. When the enemy is aggressive and you are killing,
that killing and poor animal who is supplying milk... You are drinking milk,
your mother, and you are killing. This killing and that killing is not the same
thing. According to Vedic civilization the cow is to be given special
protection. Why it is recommended for the cow? It does not say of other animal.
When animal killing is required according to Vedic civilization, those who are
meat-eaters, they are allowed to kill some insignificant animal like deer, goat,
pigs. It is for the animal eaters, not for all. But if one is bent upon... And
there are persons, they want meat-eating. So for them these unimportant animals
are recommended. But cow is very important animal. You get from its milk so many
nutritious food. So apart from religious sentiment, from economic point of view,
cow-killing is not good. And from moral point of view it is not good because you
drink cow's milk, so cow is your mother. According to Vedic civilization, there
are seven mothers.jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah
[Bg. 9.4]
adau-mata guroh patni
brahmani raja-patnika
dhenur dhatri tatha prthvi
sapta eta matarah smrtah
Adau-mata, real mother, and
guru-patni, the wife of guru or teacher, she is also mother 'cause teacher is
father. Adau-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. She is mother.
Adau-mata guroh patni brahm..., raja-patnika, the queen, the wife of the king.
She is mother. And then cow is mother because you are drinking her milk.
Adau-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika, dhenur dhatri, nurse. Nurse is also
mother because you suck the breast of the nurse. Therefore according to Vedic
civilization, there are seven mothers. So you cannot kill your mother. That is
not very good philosophy. And who can deny, "The cow is not mother"? Who has got
this audacity? You are drinking milk in the very morning. Christ says, "Thou
shall not kill? -- wholesale killing stop." And the Vedic literature is little
liberal. It does not say, "Thou shall not kill," but, "You shall not kill at
least cow." But the wholesale stop is not possible. The Vedic wisdom knows that.
But you shall not kill at least cow. That is civilization. And the Christians
are maintaining thousands of slaughterhouse. Is that very good proposal?Dr.
Pore: Are you saying that you should never kill a cow but that you sometimes can
kill a person?Prabhupada: When you can give life. There is sometimes cow
sacrifice yajna. The cow sacrifice yajna means an old cow, he is sacrificed in
the fire, and by Vedic hymns he is given again new life. To test the potency of
the Vedic mantra, an old cow is sacrificed and by mantra he is given again new
life. Not for killing and eating. That was discussed between Caitanya Mahaprabhu
and Chand Kazi, Mohammedan magistrate. Those who have read Caitanya-caritamrta
will find. So the Kazi was challenged by Caitanya Mahaprabhu that "You are
killing cow and bulls. What is your religion? You are killing your father and
mother." Then, he also was learned man, he said it that "In your Vedas the cow
sacrifice yajna is there." Then He explained, "This sacrifice is not for eating.
It is giving a new life. To test the Vedic mantra." That is discussed in
Caitanya-caritamrta. That is a different case. For meat-eating a cow should not
be killed. This is not very good civilization. If you are..., you must eat meat,
then you can kill other animals. They, those who are the ksatriyas, they were
sometimes going to the forest, killing the deer. They are allowed. Because they
have to learn how to kill. So by killing animals, they used to practice. Just
like doctors, medical practitioners, they first of all ply their knife on the
dead body and find out where are the nerves, where are the..., not a living man.
When they are fully practiced, then they are allowed to practice surgical
operation. Similarly, ksatriyas are meant for sometimes killing. Just like
Arjuna, he's a ksatriya. So Krsna is criticizing him that "You are a ksatriya.
You have learned how to kill, and now you are hesitating? What is the nonsense?"
So ksatriyas are taught. So they have to rule over. So if required, the demons
and the culprit, should immediately cut off his head, duty of the government. So
all of a sudden you cannot do that. Just like in your country a young man, he
has never learned how to kill and he is drawn in the draft board, "Come on. Go
and kill." What he will do? He will hesitate. This is not perfect system. If you
want a ksatriya, you must train them. You must train a class of men as
brahmanas. You must train a class of men as ksatriya and a class of men as
agriculturist and cow protection, and balance are workers. That is
catur-varnyam: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. But the ksatriya or the
president or the secretary, they are sitting very comfortably at our home and
some poor young men -- "Come on. Go and fight." What is this? What they will
fight? They will die there, that's all. If he does not know how to fight, that
energy is lacking, what he will do there?Dr. Crossley: I'd like to ask
something. You seem to be saying in several of your illustrations that to try to
love is too much. But at least we can chant. To try to have a prohibition
against killing is too much. Look what happens, we slaughter the animals. But to
have a specific prohibition against killing the cow, that we can have. In other
words, I hear you talking about a specific discipline that people can actually
accomplish: not kill a cow, chant...Prabhupada: Yes. The brahmanas...Dr.
Crossley: But every religion has that. Jews keep kosher.Prabhupada: It is...
Apart from religion, it is social upkeep. It has nothing to do with religion,
but it helps religion.Dr. Crossley: I guess what I really want to know is
does it matter what the specific thing is, like not killing a cow or like
chanting or are there many specific things that people can do for love of God
and for discipline that will serve the same purpose?Prabhupada: Yes. The
only specific thing is you chant. Then other things will automatically be
revealed.Dr. Crossley: So chanting is necessary.Prabhupada: Yes,
absolutely.Dr. Crossley: Nothing else will do as well.Prabhupada: No,
because at the present moment they are not practical. Suppose the meditation. It
is not practical.Dr. Crossley: Meditation is not practical?Prabhupada:
No.Dr. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, in our age, that is, in the Kali-yuga, it is
not.Prabhupada: Yes. Just like this thing. That is not practical. And it is
practical. Even a small child can chant Hare Krsna. We see every day. A small
child is chanting and dancing without any training.Dr. Wolfe: Srila
Prabhupada, the reason that meditation is not feasible now is because we are too
much distracted in this age.Prabhupada: Mind is... I will meditate on my
office work. When I close my eye I shall sleep. I have seen it. Big... (makes
snoring noise) (laughter) I have seen it, old ladies meditating. This is not
practical. Meditation is described in Vedic..., dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa
pasyanti yam yoginah: [SB 12.13.1] mind is fully absorbed in God, and he is
seeing the Supreme Lord within his heart. That is meditation, not snoring. That
is not meditation. Impractical. But if you chant Hare Krsna, immediately you can
join, immediately, "Oh." Even the child will join. So this is practical. And
that is recommended,brahmani raja-patnika
dhenur dhatri tatha prthvi
sapta eta matarah smrtah
kalau dosa-nidhe rajan
asti hy eko mahan gunah
kirtanad eva krsnasya
mukta-sangah param vrajet
[SB 12.3.51]
That is recommended by Sukadeva Gosvami, that "I have described so
many faults of this age of Kali, but there is one very biggest gain." What is
that? "That simply by chanting Hare Krsna one becomes free from all material
bondage." This is the special advantage of this age.Dr. Wolfe: Could it be
called the true yoga of our time?Prabhupada: Hm. Yes. It is bhakti-yoga.
Bhakti-yoga begins with chanting. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. And the
more you chant and hear, you become purified. So I think you leaders of your
country, you should take this movement very seriously and take it for
acceptance. It is not difficult. Chanting. You can chant in school; you can
chant in college; you can chant in the factory; you can chant on the street.
There is no special qualification required. But if we introduce this chanting,
you will be benefited great. There is no loss, but there is great gain.Dr.
Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, you are aware that they advance the argument of
mesmerization against chanting. The psychologists do that.Prabhupada: That's
good. That's good. If you can mesmerize, that will... Now Dr. Judah has admitted
that you can mesmerize the drug-addicted hippies and engage them in
understanding Krsna, is a great achievement. (laughter) Yes.Dr. Wolfe:
That's not mesmerization, of course.Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. Dr.
Judah has admitted. So if mesmerization is for good, why not accept it? If it is
for bad, then it is another thing. If it is doing good, why not accept it? Hmm?
What do you think, professor?Dr. Pore: I don't know how to react. I think I
agree with you. (laughs)asti hy eko mahan gunah
kirtanad eva krsnasya
mukta-sangah param vrajet
[SB 12.3.51]
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Garden Conversation with Professors -- June 24, 1975, Los
Angeles
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
