"Varnashram-dharma--How Necessary"

Mayapura, February 9, 1976


Prabhupada: ...from the Bhagavatam. So this should be mentioned. It is not only a temple, but a planetarium according to Bhagavatam, where which planet is situated, where is Vaikunthaloka, where is Goloka Vrndavana, where is Mahar...

Devotees: Wow!

Tamala Krsna: You want a real planetarium just like in the West.

Jayapataka: That's what I told them, Prabhupada...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayapataka: ...that this is not a temple; this is like a big cultural exposition, museum, planetarium.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Boy, Prabhupada, the people will pay... Everyone will pay a rupee to go in and see that. One rupee for that, one rupee to ride the escalator.

Prabhupada: And there will be escalator to take them to different planetary system. Mention there.

Bhavananda: My father... In those planetariums, they use a machine in the center that shoots out light. My father helped to invent that, so we could probably...

Prabhupada: So bring your father. Father and son, both together. He is... Where he is?

Bhavananda: In America.

Prabhupada: So call him. He'll not come?

Bhavananda: I don't think so, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Demon?

Bhavananda: No, no. He reads your Bhagavad-gita every night.

Prabhupada: Then? Then why he'll not come?

Bhavananda: I think he's too much attached to my mother.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Your mother is not old enough? What is the age of your mother?

Bhavananda: Sixty-eight.

Prabhupada: Oh, still she is attractive? (laughs) A girl of sixty-eight? That's nice. Very good husband. And what is your father's age?

Bhavananda: Sixty-eight.

Prabhupada: And mother?

Bhavananda: Sixty-eight.

Prabhupada: Same age.

Bhavananda: Same.

Jayapataka: American system.

Prabhupada: No, here also, some cases. Gandhi's wife was one year older than Gandhi, yes. Kaustubha Gandhi, she was seventeen years old, and Gandhi was sixteen years old, and they were married. There are many cases.

Tamala Krsna: That was arranged by their parents, or they did it themselves?

Prabhupada: Yes, by their parents. Except in Bengal, in other provinces they do not take much care of the age. Generally the bridegroom is older. Boy is older than the girl. [break] ...was married, he was eleven years old.

Hrdayananda: Eleven years old.

Prabhupada: Yes. And his wife, my mother-in-law, was seven years. Dr. Rajendra Prasada, the president, he was married when he was eight years old.

Tamala Krsna: (laughing) How old was his wife?

Prabhupada: He was sleeping. The marriage party goes to the bride's house. So it was to be... The time fixed was at twelve o'clock or one o'clock. So the bridegroom was sleeping. So all the men made: "Oh, get up! Get up! You have to be married! Now you get up! Get up! Get up!"

Tamala Krsna: He didn't understand.

Prabhupada: He did not know what is marriage. "Get up! Get up! You have to be married now."

Tamala Krsna: So in such cases they would live separately, though, until they grew older.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Until the girl is twelve, fourteen. She must be pub..., be puberty period. Then...

Tamala Krsna: But still, they know who they are married to.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Tamala Krsna: So they don't have any anxiety.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...age was at that time eleven years. So she came to live at the age of thirteen years, and at fourteen years she gave birth to a child.

Hrdayananda: How old were you, Prabhupada, when you...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: How old were you when you got married?

Prabhupada: I was student, so we were living separately. When she was thirteen years old, after puberty, then she was at... But there are many mothers still -- the difference between the child, first child, and mother, twelve years. There are many mothers. At twelve years they gave birth to a child, especially in Bengal.

Tamala Krsna: In America that is considered very horrible.

Hrdayananda: Why?

Tamala Krsna: Catastrophe.

Prabhupada: All my sisters were married within twelve years. My second sister, she became twelve years, and I heard my mother become so disturbed: "Oh, this girl is not being married. I shall commit suicide." (laughter)

Tamala Krsna: At twelve!

Prabhupada: Twelve years. And she was given to a boy, my brother-in-law, for the second marriage. Means that my brother-in-law lost his first wife, and still, he was twenty-one years old. My sister was twelve years old and brother-in-law was twenty-one. In the sastra... I do not know exactly what is that sastra, but they say that if the girl before marriage has menstruation, then the father has to eat that menstrual liquid. Means it is, mean, very strict. And if the father is not living, then the elder brother has to eat. [break] ...ty of getting the girl married rests on the father. In the absence of the father, the eldest brother. The girl must be married. That is it. It is called daya, kanya-daya.

Tamala Krsna: Daya.

Prabhupada: Daya. Daya means legally inheritance. That is called daya. Just like your father's money you get automatically. So similarly, kanya-daya means to get the girl married is a daya. You cannot refuse it. It is incumbent, you must do it.

Tamala Krsna: So many of our, the girls in our society, they have reached that age, but they are not getting married.

Prabhupada: No, your society is different. Now it is here also.

Tamala Krsna: I mean in ISKCON, in our society.

Prabhupada: ISKCON is not going to be social reformer, but as far as possible, we can help. Our main business is how to make everyone Krsna conscious. That is our business. We cannot take up, but if possible, we can take up all the system of varnasrama.

Tamala Krsna: If varnasrama is neglected, then how can there be proper functioning of society?

Prabhupada: No. If the society chants Hare Krsna seriously, then it is all right. Never mind whatever is done. It doesn't matter. Papi tapi jata chilo, hari-name uddharilo. This is the power of hari-sankirtana. If one is absorbed in Krsna consciousness, all benefit is there. So long in the bodily concept of life, we require this varnasrama-dharma. Otherwise there is no necessity.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu you have read in the eighth chapter, Madhya-lila, talk between Ramananda Raya and Caitanya Mahaprabhu? So "Perfectional life how begins?" This question was raised by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and Ramananda replied, "It begins with the varnasrama-dharma, regulated social life."

Tamala Krsna: He rejected that.

Prabhupada: Not rejected. "Yes, it is not very important." Eho bahya: "This is external." Age kaha ara: "If you know something more." So the varnasrama-dharma is a good help undoubtedly, but it is not important for Krsna consciousness. Otherwise how could I start this movement in the Western country? There was no varnasrama-dharma. But that did not hamper my movement. Now people are surprised: "How these people have become such great devotees." So it was not based on varnasrama-dharma, no, because the whole movement is spiritual. It starts from the spiritual platform, aham brahmasmi. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Samasrita ye pada-pallava-plavam mahat-padam punya-yaso murareh, bhavambudhir vatsa-padam param. Now just like here is a gap. So you can go by the bridge, and if you can jump over, that is also going. That is also going. So to become Krsna conscious means to jump over to the spiritual platform immediately. And this varnasrama-dharma, sannyasa, varna-tyaga, karma-tyaga, these are different steps only. But if you become Krsna conscious seriously, then you jump over all these steps; you go immediately. That lift and the staircase. By staircase you go step by step. By lift you can go immediately, faster.

Hrdayananda: Even some of these women, they're not married but they are serving Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah [Bg. 9.32]. This striya, generally they take it, "Even she is prostitute," striya. Te 'pi yanti param gatim: "They can also go back to home, back to Godhead." Mam hi partha... If he takes Krsna very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihata. Krsna devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smartas, they are thinking like that, "How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brahmana?" But they do not know that by Krsna consciousness one can jump over. Mayam etam taranti te. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Maya is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varnasrama-dharma, karma-tyaga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over maya. But Krsna said, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Krsna sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Krsna says in another place, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: [Bg. 18.66] "I'll do immediately." So maya means papa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in maya. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over maya. So these smarta brahmanas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, "How a person born in other families, they can become brahmana?"

Hrdayananda: So they have no faith in devotional service.

Prabhupada: No, they are...

Tamala Krsna: What was the conclusion last night with Caitya-guru and Mr. Motilal. I couldn't follow in...

Prabhupada: [break] Then you come to Gita's instruction, guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. And Narada Muni also says that one must be qualified, not the birth. Just like this Mullik, and we had the same gotra, but the marriage cannot take place within the same family.

Tamala Krsna: Within the gotra. In the same gotra.

Prabhupada: The same title, De, and same gotra; therefore it is the same family. That is the proof. So in the same family there cannot be any marriage. Sa-gotra. Sa-gotra-vivaha-nisedha.

Tamala Krsna: So no member of your family could have married someone in the Mullik family.

Prabhupada: No. There is another Mullik family. They are different from our family.

Tamala Krsna: They are not De's.

Prabhupada: They are not De's. They are Sil's.

Tamala Krsna: Cee?

Prabhupada: Sil. Their title is Sil.

Bhavananda: Sil. Sil.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, Sil.

Prabhupada: Sil Mullik and De Mullik. There are two Mulliks. Their gotra is also different. So in the marriage, before marriage taking place, one has to calculate whether they belong to the same family, same disciplic... Then, if it is the same, the marriage will not... Same blood will not be accepted. Same family means same blood. So throughout the whole world same blood is not allowed, marriage.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's going on other places in the world too.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: All over the world. They say that what will happen... One thing that will happen is that if there's any... Of course, this is scientists' explanation. If there is any weakness within the family line -- that means bodily weakness, mental weakness, or anything...

Prabhupada: No, even it is not weakness, it will create weakness, same blood. The different blood will create some incentive, different flow of blood. That is scientific. But who cares for that?

Tamala Krsna: Nowadays...

Prabhupada: The Mohammedans, they accept the same blood. Therefore they are not very intelligent. Throughout the whole world the Mohammedans are not very intelligent.

Tamala Krsna: They marry within their family.

Prabhupada: Yes. And uncle's daughter.

Tamala Krsna: Uncle's daughter.

Prabhupada: Yes. The father and his brother, so his daughter, his son can marry.

Bhavananda: First cousins.

Prabhupada: First cousin, yes.

Jayapataka: There was some case of that in the royalty in France, and they got some bleeding disease from that, hemophilia. If they got any cut, then that would never heal. It would only bleed until they died.

Prabhupada: So it is very scientific not to get married of the same blood.

Jayapataka: Many people ask us what gotra we are.

Prabhupada: You are acyuta-gotra. You can say acyuta-gotra. Acyuta means never falls down.

Tamala Krsna: Never falls down.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: There is such a gotra as that?

Prabhupada: Yes, acyuta-gotra. All devotees are... We are identified with Krsna's family, acyuta-gotra. [break] ...madhye ratham sthapaya me acyuta. Acyuta is Krsna. So Krsna conscious man means acyuta-gotra. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- February 9, 1976, Mayapura

HOME
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission.