Demons' Symptoms 75/10/18 South Africa, Bhagavad-gita 16.6

Demons' Symptoms

75/10/18 South Africa, Bhagavad-gita 16.6



Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



Prabhupada:

dvau bhuta-sargau loke 'smin
daiva asura eva ca
daivo vistarasah prokta
asuram partha me srnu
[Bg. 16.6]

There are two classes of men throughout the whole universe. One class is called daiva and the other class is called asura. Daiva asura eva ca. Daivo vistarasah proktah. So far the devas are concerned, Krsna has explained in various ways in the last chapters, ahimsa, ksanti, arjavam, how to practice this things. So visnu-bhakto bhaved devah asuras tad-viparyayah. These two classes, how they are ascertained? One who is a devotee of the Supreme Lord Visnu, they are called deva, or demigods, and persons who know Visnu or may not know -- on the whole, they are not devotees of Visnu -- even they are devotee of other demigods, they are called asura. Just like Ravana. Ravana, he was a great devotee of Lord Siva, but he is described as asura, raksasa. Similarly, Hiranyakasipu was a great devotee of Lord Brahma; still, he is accepted as raksasa. So unless one is Vaisnava or devotee of the Lord Visnu, he is asura or raksasa. This is the instruction of the sastra.

In modern days also, practically nobody is devotee, so how they are described in the Bhagavad-gita? They are described as duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah, mayayapahrta-jnanah, asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15]. These asuras also divided into so many classes. The first-class asura is the duskrtina, one who is engaged in sinful meritorious action. Sinful meritorious. Just like a big thief. There are many organization of smugglers, black market, thieves. They have got brain to organize. Without brain they cannot organize. Now, in the Western countries there are big, big organizations simply for smuggling, cheating, bluffing, and very good brain, educated, lawyers. I have seen practically in New York these cheating concerns. There are many lawyers to help them how to cheat. And they make arrangement, take money from one, cheating. Many organizations. So they are called duskrtina. They are educated. They have got good brain, they can act very nicely, but their intelligence is being used for sinful activities. They are called duskrtina. They do not know how they shall use their brain. That is going on.

That is jada-vidya, mayar vaibhava. They can expand the influence of maya. We are already influenced by maya. Prakrtim mohinim sritah. We have taken this material world as very fascinating, very attractive. We want to stay here and enjoy. This is material life. Everyone who is attracted to the material world, they are sinful or fallen. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. The, our material life begins... We are spirit soul. When our material life...? When we try to deny, try to not serve Krsna but independently we want to enjoy life, that is called material life. Independently we want to enjoy without Krsna, without God. That is called material life. So such persons are called demons.

So the symptoms of demon... Krsna says, daivo vistarasah proktah: "I have already spoken elaborately about the persons who are daiva, who are on the platform of demigods. Now..." Prokta asuram partha me srnu: "Now I am describing who are the asuras. Just try to understand." The first symptoms of asura is, it is said,

pravrttim ca nivrttim ca
jana na vidur asurah
na saucam napi cacaro
na satyam tesu vidyate
[Bg. 16.7]

Very nicely described. The first symptom is pravrtti and nivrtti. Why we are in this material world, when it has begun -- that the asuras do not know. Sometimes they ask that "Why we have come to this material world? We are suffering, we can understand." Or sometimes they say, "God is unjust, unkind, that they have created this material world and we have been put into it," so on, so on. But actually this pravrtti, this intention or this purpose of enjoying this material world, is not given to you by God. We have created. God's desire is that you become a devotee. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is God's desire. But you don't want it.

We don't want to stop the tendency of material enjoyment. No nivrtti. The human life is meant for nivrtti. The cats' and dogs' life is for pravrtti. The sex desire, they cannot stop it. It is not possible. If you teach some dogs that "You forget the sex life," it is impossible. That is not possible. So they cannot stop this desire of sex life. But if a human being can be induced... Therefore there is brahmacarya system, there is Vedic education, there is Bhagavad-gita, so many other things. If people take advantage of these books they can stop this pravrtti, this intense desire for enjoying this material world. But the asuras, they do not know that what we should accept and what we should not accept. Pravrtti means to accept something, and nivrtti means to deny something. So they do not know. This is the first symptom of the asuras. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na viduh. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca jana na vidur asurah, asurah janah [Bg. 16.7], those who are demons, asuras, they do not know it.

Then next symptom? Na saucam: They are very unclean. These things you will find nowadays everywhere, all over the world. They are not clean. The cleanliness is next to godliness. To rise early in the morning and cleanse yourself, evacuate, then take bath, cleanse your teeth, cleanse your hands, legs, and be refreshed, that is required. Saucam. Suci. This is the brahmana's business. Just like brahmana's another name is suci. And one who does not observe the cleanliness process, he is called muci, means cobbler. So this is the symptom, that the asuras, they do not know which way is their goal of life. Na saucam: "They are very unclean." Na saucam.
Napi ca acarah: "They do not know etiquette." Acara. Acara means one should learn how to behave. That makes a gentleman and a rough person. Napi cacarah. Acarah means... Acaryavan puruso veda. Acarah, this is... Acarah means he learns from the sastra how we should live, that, preliminary, that you must take bath, you must wash your hands after eating or you must take bath after evacuating. So many things are there. Nitya-karma-vidhi. In the Vedic literature you find all these directions, but now they have given up. Especially Vedic culture was there long, long ago all over the world. But now that is finished. Now in India, also, where little Vedic principles were still glowing, that is now being finished also. Napi ca acarah. They are learning from the Westerns how to remain unclean, how to eat meat, how to drink wine, and so on, so on, so many things.

Napi cacaro na satyam tesu vidyate. And they do not know what is truth or what is truthfulness. Or, in other words, everyone is liar. I have seen many big, big gentlemen that for nothing they will speak lies, for nothing, without any profit. They will speak so many lies. Na satyam tesu vidyate. To become truthful is one of the brahminical qualifications. Satyam. That is required. But the asuras, they don't care for. They will go on, telling lies, volumes of lies. They don't mind for it. These are the symptoms. Na saucam napi cacaro na satyam tesu. And their life is aimless, not actual life. Real life means with aim. The asuras, they have no aim. They do not know what is the aim, neither they follow. Then? Other symptom?

asatyam apratistham te
jagad ahur anisvaram
aparaspara-sambhutam
kim anyat kama-haitukam
[Bg. 16.8]

Their other philosophy is that there is no God. Jagad ahur anisvaram [Bg. 16.8]. As soon as you say that "God has created the cosmic material world, the sky. God has created," they will laugh at you "Ha, God has created. Why you bring God?" Someone was telling me that in some scientific conference they first of all warn that "Don't bring God in any of your statements." What is that? Do you know? So these asuras, their first business is how to convince people that everything has taken place by accident or by combination of matter. There is no question of accepted God, the creator. That's all. What is that?

Devotee: This one I'm offering to you. (?)

Prabhupada: So asatyam apratistham. And the so-called sannyasi, because they are atheist, they say that asatyam: "This material world is maya. It has no truth. What you are seeing, it is illusion." Asatyam. But we do not say like that. We say as we learn from Bhagavad-gita, we say that Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. Krsna says, "They are My prakrti, My energy." Bhumir apah analah. So because it is Krsna's prakrti...

Just like I am a person. I can create something very good, and I can create something not very good. But I can create something not very good... Just like another practical example. I cook something and some of the preparation, people say, "Oh, it is very good," and some of the preparation, they say, "It is not so good, but it is nice." But you cannot say any of the things as mithya. That you cannot say. You are practically eating, and somebody has prepared it, so how you can say it is mithya, it is false? No. That is not our version. You can say... That is also according to taste. You like some sour things; another likes some sweet things. So the person who likes sour things, he says, "Oh, it is very nice." And one who likes sweet things, he may say, "No, it is not so good. This is very nice, the sweet." But either the sour or the sweet thing is prepared by the same cook. You cannot say it is false. It is the energy of the same cook, so you cannot say it is false.

So it is a false... When the Mayavadi sannyasis say that jagan mithya, Jagad ahur anisvaram [Bg. 16.8], "There is no God..." The Bauddha philosophers, they say that "This jagat, this world, has come into existence by combination of matter." The modern scientists also say. They say that "Chemical evolution, by combination of chemicals, everything has come out, but there is no creator." They will deny this. This is the symptom of the asura. So from this instruction you can understand who is a rascal and asura. As soon as they say that "There is no God. The world is created by chance. By chance..." Aparaspara-bhutam. Aparaspara: "One thing mixed with another thing..."

How the example? The example is kim anyat kama-haitukam. Just like a man and woman, by chance they become lusty and have sex, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the child is coming, just like this is a creation, accidentally, accident. The man or woman becomes lusty accidentally, and there is sex and therefore the creation of the child. This is their theory, not that "This child is a living entity, and he is coming from his last birth, and he's taking particular type of body according to his last birth," no conclusion like that. "God is the judge what kind of body he should get." Daiva-netrena.

Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1]. There are so many things behind this child's birth. Why this child is coming to a poor father or rich father if it is accident? Why one child is suffering, one is not, is very comfortable position? So there is behind so many things, but they do not know. Because they are asura, they think, "It is accident" or "there is no life. Kill it. If you feel botheration then kill it. Finish this business." These are the asuric conclusion. Jagad ahur... asatyam apratistham. This is false. They say that jagan mithya, "So we have nothing to do." Brahma satyam and... Brahman is satya, that's fact, but we say, we Vaisnavas say, that "The jagat is created by Brahman. How it is false? How the satya can create asatya?" This logic they cannot understand. If the man who has created, who has cooked so many nice things, so if he is a fact, then the cooking is also a fact. How you can say the cooking is false? That is not knowledge.

Therefore sometimes we find that although they say it is mithya, jagan mithya, and take sannyasa and for some days they remain meditation or aloof from any worldly affairs, but later on, when they do not find Brahman, they come again to this maya to open hospitals, schools, as sannyasi. Just like in our country there are many. The beginning we see that... Vivekananda Swami, he took sannyasa and meditation. Later on, after his touring in the Western countries, he came to India to open hospitals, schools, like that. But if the world is false, then why you are coming to open school and hospitals? Because they could not get... And some other sannyasi also, he is now taking part in politics. If jagat is mithya, why you are taking part in politics? These question are there.

Actually they do not know what is what, what is the adjustment. But our philosophy, Vaisnava philosophy, we don't say that "There is no God" or "This world is created by accident or combination of matter." We don't say that. We say that God is the creator. Not we say, but the Vedanta says. The essence of Vedic knowledge, Vedanta philosophy, Vyasadeva, he says that janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "The source of janma or creation, the maintenance and annihilation, the source..." Where it is? Yato va imani bhutani jayante. This is Vedic information. That is Brahman, wherefrom everything is coming. The same thing is said in the Vedanta-sutra. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Athato brahma jijnasa.

So janmady asya yatah, that is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. What is that janmady asya yatah, the original source of everything? What is that? It is a matter or a living being? But the two things, we have got experience. We see that everything is coming... Suppose this microphone, it has come from matter and... Actually it has not come from matter, it has come from the living being who has manufactured it. But we foolishly concluding that it is a combination of matter. Who has combined this matter to make it usable? So this is less knowledge, that this is combination of several parts of material things and it is working. But who has manufactured those different parts of the electronics and other things? It has not come out all of a sudden from the sky. It has been manufactured by some living entity. So this is knowledge.

So janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], the atheist class, the so-called scientists, asuras, they say it is a chemical combination, by accident. We don't say like that. We say the janmady asya, the original source of everything, is a person. Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. Just like this microphone, if I say accidentally all the material things, electronics parts, mixed together and became a micro... No, we don't say that. We say, "This is manufactured by somebody who is very expert in dealing with these parts." That is our knowledge. Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas carthesu abhijnah. The person who has mixed together these different parts is very expert, abhijnah. That is right conclusion. And if you, as a rascal, if you say that "All of a sudden the material parts -- there are many parts -- they became assembled; just like one lusty man becomes accidentally lusty desire and the woman also becomes, they unite," it is not like that. It is not accident. There is brain. So every creation has got a brain behind it. Therefore it is said, abhijnah. Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas carthesu abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. That abhijnah is God, Krsna, one who knows things, how to do it. So in this way, if we study that the asuras, their symptoms are described... So asuras are condemned. They cannot have any happiness. They'll simply go on theorizing. There is no solution, so one has to become deva. Visnu-bhakto bhaved devah. If we remain asuras, rascals, then our life is spoiled. Thank you very much. [break]

Devotee (1): These qualities that you were talking about, saucam, do they develop naturally?

Prabhupada: If you practice as they are described in the sastra, then gradually you become released from the asura stage and come to the deva stage. Then you understand everything rightly. And if you keep yourself as asuras, then you will never be happy.

Pusta Krsna: The statement here is that the material world is founded on lust. This is the asuric conception. So everything...

Prabhupada: The Sankhya philosophy is also like that.

Pusta Krsna: Yes. So this lust... The godly qualities, they come from Krsna.

Prabhupada: Everything comes from Krsna.

Pusta Krsna: Even the demoniac qualities?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Krsna is the origin of everything. Aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. When Krsna says, "I am the origin of everything," so the demonic quality is also coming from Krsna. Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. If you want to become a demon, Krsna will supply the quality. You become first-class demon. Without Krsna's help you cannot become even demon. It is said, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah: [Bg. 15.15] "I am situated in everyone's heart." Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah. (aside:) What did you get by, while I speaking, taking photograph? I repeatedly ask you. You are obstinate.

Bhargava: Pardon?

Prabhupada: What do you get, special feature, when I talk? You take photograph?

Bhargava: I asked the other day if I could take during...

Prabhupada: Not during while I am talking. You don't take. That disturbs me. My attention goes to your photograph. It is very much disturbing.

So Krsna is the origin of everything. So in the sastra it is described just like my front portion and my back portion. So the back portion is also my bodily part, and the front portion is also my bodily part. So asuric propensities and irreligious things, they are just like Krsna's back portion, darkness, that this darkness, material energy, is called mama maya. The material energy is keeping everyone in darkness. But Krsna says, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya [Bg. 7.14]. So this... The darkness is another side of the light. Because there is light there is darkness. Darkness there is no independently. You can understand darkness because there is light. So light and darkness, they are simultaneously there, and everything is janmady asya yatah; [SB 1.1.1] everything's source is Krsna.

So, but Krsna... The darkness cannot act on Krsna. It acts on you. That is the difference. Just like we have discussed this verse, apasyat purusam purnam mayam ca tad-apasrayam. The sunlight... You just stand before the sun, facing the sun. Immediately there is darkness behind me. So darkness is there. But when you keep sun in your front there is no darkness. So darkness is also another creation of the light. But we are put into the darkness, the sun is not put into the darkness. The darkness behind me is captivating for me, not to the sun. So those who are devotees, those who are facing the sun, Krsna, for them there is no darkness. But those who are asuras, they are put into the darkness. So darkness is temporary, and it is dependent on light. Therefore it is creation of Krsna. That is the conclusion.

Pusta Krsna: When Krsna steals or does anything, we glorify it because He is absolute. So the Mayavadis, they say that the living entities are also absolute. Is that correct?

Prabhupada: No. That is a wrong theory. If Mayavadi is absolute..., jiva is absolute, then why they have become conditioned? Why? What is the answer?

Pusta Krsna: They are dependent on some higher absolute.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, is it possible for one person to be part demon and part devotee in the same person?

Prabhupada: If he's a devotee, he's not demon at all, if he's devotee.

Devotee (2): But he may have some demoniac qualities?

Prabhupada: Yes. That, if he is seriously devotee, that demonic qualities will disappear very soon. Ksipram bhavati dharmatma. Api cet su-duracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavyah [Bg. 9.30], ksipram bhavati dharmatma. Just like electric fan is moving, and you make the switch off. Still you will find, it is moving. But that movement will stop very soon because switch is off. Similarly, a devotee, if it is sometimes found that he is demonic, that demonic, if he is sincerely a devotee, that demonic qualities will go very soon.

ksipram bhavati dharmatma
sasvac-chantim nigacchati
kaunteya pratijanihi
na me bhaktah pranasyati
[Bg. 9.31]

So if one is strongly a devotee, then, gradually -- it may take little time -- all good qualities will be manifest in his body. So, any other question?

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, does Krsna know that He's sitting in everyone's heart?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee (3): Does he know when... "The Supreme Lord sits in anyone's heart, O Arjuna, and He's directing the wandering of all living entities." Does He know when the living entities are going to surrender unto Him?

Prabhupada: So?

Pusta Krsna: The question is: if Krsna is sitting in everyone's heart and He knows the wanderings of all living entities -- He's directing the wandering of all living entities -- then does Krsna know the time, or does He direct the living entity at some certain time to surrender or is this the will of the living entity?

Prabhupada: He knows. Yes, He knows. What is your...? Is there any doubt?

Devotee (3): No, it wasn't a doubt, but...

Prabhupada: So what is the time He knows, do you know that? He knows that he will surrender, but when he will surrender... Then? That question must be there. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg. 7.14]. He knows that "He'll be happy provided he surrenders unto Me, otherwise not." That He knows also. Is it all right? He knows that "As soon as he is surrendered unto Me he'll be free from the clutches of maya," and He knows it also, "If he does not know do so, then he'll never be free from maya." Both things He knows. Is it clear or not?

Pusta Krsna: But it's the living entity's choice to surrender.

Prabhupada: Yes. He knows everything.

Pusta Krsna: But then they give the argument, "If He knows, then how does the living entity have choice?"

Prabhupada: Yes, that is given to him. He knows that "I have given him the independence," so you can use your choice. That He knows also. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. He knows.

Pusta Krsna: This is understanding things in proper light.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (3): See, the argument could come that "If He is directing the wanderings of all living entities then I don't have to worry about surrendering. He will direct me to it."

Prabhupada: Yes. But ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. Why don't you see other verse? He is directing according to your desire -- unless you surrender. There are two kinds of direction. One kind of direction is when you do not surrender, and one kind of direction, when you have surrendered, because these things are there. My position is either surrender or not surrender. So the not surrender will get one kind of direction and the surrender will get another kind of direction. Both ways, there is direction. Without His direction he cannot act. Is it clear or not? He gives direction to both of them, but this both, one who is surrendered is a different person from the person who is surrendered. So they, both of them, get different direction in different position, but without His direction he cannot act, either the surrendered or not the surrendered. He has to give direction. So if you think, "My Lord, send me to the hell. I will be very much satisfied," "All right, you go to hell in this way. This is the path." And if you say "My lord, kindly take me to Your shelter," then He will give you direction, "You come in this way."

tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogam tam
yena mam upayanti te
[Bg. 10.10]

He says, tesam satata-yuktanam. Anyone who is twenty-four hours engaged in serving the Lord, bhajatam... This is called bhajana, always engaged in Krsna's service, bhajana-priti..., with love and faith. To such person, He gives a direction. What is that direction? Buddhi-yogam dadami tam: "I give him that buddhi-yoga." What for? Yena mam upayanti te. "By the process by which he is anxious to come to Me, I give intelligence, 'Yes, come this way. You come to Me.' " And those who are not devotee, they want to eat and sleep and sex life and defense in different types of bodies. The dog is also defending with his claws and teeth. The tiger is also defending. The man is also defending. And man is also have sex life, or the tiger has also sex life. The dog has also sex life. The dog is eating. The man is eating. In these affairs they offer, "Give me this facility, my Lord. I want to eat without everything with any dis..." "All right. You take the body of a hog and you eat stool." This direction. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. So as you want...

So these different types of want is different type of people. A demon's want is different and a demigod's want is different. But Krsna in both cases is the director. If he wants to prosper in this line, "All right, take My direction. Do it. You become a first-class demon like Hiranyakasipu, Ravana, and become very powerful and create a situation by which both you and your whole family will be killed." That direction is there. And to a demigod, devotee, His direction he has. He he goes back to home. He plays with Krsna as cowherds boy. He dances with Krsna as gopi. He becomes Krsna's father, Krsna's mother. Clear it. Is it clear or not?

Pusta Krsna: Yes.

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: Krsna gives direction according to the person, he wants. If he wants like a demon, Krsna will give him very good direction how he can become a first-class demon. And if he wants to become an associate of Krsna, devotee, then He will give you first-class direction how you can become. [break] Without His direction you cannot go even a step forward. You are dependent in both the cases. You are not independent. You are dependent in both the cases. Now, as you want, whether you want to become a demon or whether you want to make a devotee and make progress in that line, that is your decision. Is that clear? Yes.

Devotee (3): Yes.

Girl: Srila Prabhupada, even if... All living entities are part and parcel of Krsna. Even if we don't surrender to Krsna in this lifetime, eventually we'll surrender to Him, each and every one of us.

Pusta Krsna: Everyone... Even if we don't surrender to Krsna in this life, will everyone surrender to Krsna? Will everyone go back to Godhead eventually?

Prabhupada: Hm? So you have got doubt? Rest assured not everyone will do that. So you have no worries. It is not that everyone will do that. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Unless one is bhagyavan, very fortunate, he'll not go back to home, back to Godhead. He will rot here. So this Krsna consciousness movement means we are trying to make people bhagyavan. If he wants, he can become bhagyavan. That is our attempt. We are creating so many centers. We are teaching how to become bhagyavan, fortunate, how to go back to home, how he can be happy. Now, if one is fortunate, they will take this instruction and turn his life. Therefore this is mission. But without becoming bhagyavan, nobody can go. Fortunate. So we are giving them chance to become fortunate. This is our mission. The most unfortunate is getting the chance of becoming fortunate. Any one of us can consider this, how from unfortunate life they are coming to fortunate. This is Krsna consciousness movement, that we are giving chance to the unfortunate. Everyone is unfortunate, everyone is a rascal. We are giving chance how to become intelligent and fortunate. This is Krsna consciousness. If the people are not so unfortunate and rascal, then what is the meaning of preaching? Preaching means that you have to turn the rascals and unfortunate to become intelligent and fortunate. That is preaching. But unless you are fortunate and intelligent, you cannot take to Krsna consciousness. That is a fact.

Pusta Krsna: Can intelligence be created in an unintelligent person?

Prabhupada: Everyone is intelligent. That I have already explained. Everyone has got brain and intelligence, but he has to use it properly. That is wanted. That is education. You cannot teach a stone how to manufacture this microphone. That is not possible because he has no intelligence. But even one is dull brained, you can teach him by education how to manufacture this microphone. So intelligence is there, every living entity. Now, to train them how to utilize his intelligence... So one who is fortunate, he becomes trained up in intelligence how to go home, back to home, back to Godhead. And one who is not fortunate, his intelligence is used how to go to hell. That's all. That is duskrtina. To become a member of the hellish condition of life, that also requires intelligence. How to become first-class thief, how to become first-class cheater, first-class drunkard, first-class smuggler -- does it not require intelligence? It requires intelligence. But their intelligence is being used for going to hell. Another intelligence is being used to going back to home, back to Godhead. Intelligence is there in both the cases. Now, it is the technique, how to use it. That's all. That requires.

So duskrtina: "Those who are simply engaged in sinful activities and utilizing intelligence in that way," na mam prapadyante, "they cannot surrender to Me." So the intelligence is there. Everything is there. Senses are there. They have to be purified. Tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. The Krsna consciousness movement is to purify intelligence, not that intelligence is external, pushed in, within him, no, intelligence there, but at the present moment he is polluted. His intelligence is covered with so many dirty things. That has to be cleansed. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is Krsna consciousness movement. His intelligence has to be cleansed. Other... Intelligence is there. Without intelligence, how one can be living being? Then he is stone. The Buddha philosophy, they mean to say that "Kill your intelligence. Then no more suffering from pain or pleasure. Just like stone. It has no feeling or suffering or pleasure." So that is not possible for the living entity to become as dull as the stone. That is not possible. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 16.6 -- South Africa, October 18, 1975

Some Way or Other Become Krsna Conscious 72/02/23 Calcutta, Bhagavad-gita 16.5

By: Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



Prabhupada:

(daivi) sampad vimoksaya
nibandhayasuri mata
ma sucah sampadam daivim
abhijato 'si pandava
[Bg. 16.5]

Arjuna is advised by Krsna. He has described before the..., what is daivi sampati and what is asuri sampat. Abhayam sattva-samsuddhir. These are daivi sampat:

abhayam sattva-samsuddhir
jnana-yoga-vyavasthitih
danam damas ca yajnas ca
svadhyayas tapa arjavam

ahimsa satyam akrodhas
tyagah santir apaisunam
daya bhutesv aloluptvam
mardavam hrir acapalam

tejah ksama dhrtih saucam
adroho nati manita
bhavanti sampadam daivim
abhijatasya bharata

So there are two classes of men. There are two classes of men within this world. In the Visnu Purana it is said that visnu-bhaktah bhaved daivah. Those are Visnu bhaktas, devotee of Lord Visnu. Three Deities -- Visnu, Mahesvara and Brahma. Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So those who are devotees of Visnu, they are devata. Not that the asuras, just like Ravana. Ravana was a great devotee of Lord Siva and Hiranyakasipu was great devotee of Brahma, but both of them have been described as asura and raksasa. They are great devotee. Therefore the conclusion is there two classes of men, asura and devata. The visnu bhaktah bhaved daivah, those who are devotees of Lord Visnu, they are deva, devata, or demigods, and asuras tad-viparyayah. What is the difference between devata and asura? The, that is explained by Krsna, that daivi sampad vimoksaya [Bg. 16.5]. If you develop your divine qualities, as they're described, ahimsa, sattva-samsuddhih... Sattva-samsuddhih, sattva-samsuddhih means existentional purification. Our..., we, as spirit soul, we are pure, original, because Krsna is pure. Arjuna accepts Krsna, after understanding Bhagavad-gita, param brahma param dhama pavitram-paramam bhavan: [Bg. 10.12] "You are param pavitra.'' And God is param pavitra is admitted in the Isopanisad. Apapa-viddham, asnaviram. Asnaviram means in the body of God there are no veins, and therefore apapa-viddham. Veins, as soon as you have got this veins, that is material body. The body is maintained under certain material condition. You eat, and this eating substance transformed into secretion, then through the veins this comes to the heart, and heart it becomes red, corpuscle, the blood, the blood is diffused. Therefore there are so many channels, veins. And these things are pushed on with the air, and if there is shortage of air circulation, the man becomes paralyzed. This is scientific. So these things are required for the material body, not for the spiritual body. In spiritual body, asnaviram, there is no vein. Therefore one who misunderstands Krsna as having a material body, he has been described in the Bhagavad-gita as mudha. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. He has no veins. There is no difference between His body and His soul. We have got difference with our body and soul; therefore this existence with this material body is not suddha, is not pure. Therefore, sattva-samsuddhir, abhayam sattva-samsuddhir.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has described, this abhayam means fearlessness, because, unless I become fearless, I cannot give up my present position. Just like, according to our Vedic system... Not our; everyone. Vedic system is for everyone. It is not that for a particular class of men, Vedic system. That's wrong. When Krsna says catur varnyam maya srstam [Bg. 4.13], this Vedic system, it is for all, not for a particular country, a particular society. So the Vedic system is that one should accept the order, sannyasa order, at the last stage of his life. Suppose one lives for a hundred years. He should become brahmacari, student, for twenty five-years, then a married man for another twenty-five years, and after fifty years, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet, he should accept the vana-vasi. Vana-vasi means vanaprastha. Vana: from vana, vana, "one who has gone to the forest,'' vanaprastha. So then, when he is prepared, he should take sannyasa. The whole institution is meant for sattva, sattva-samsuddhih. So one has to purify his existentional life; otherwise, if he does not purify his existence, then he has to transmigrate from one body to another, and that is material existence. That is material existence. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. One has to transmigrate from lower species of life, aquatic life, to trees; from trees to insect; insect to birds; birds to beasts; and from beasts, that is evolution. That evolution is not Darwin's evolution. That evolution, it is called janmanta vada. The soul is going from one body to another, not that the body is transforming. The Darwin's theory is that the body is transforming. No. Body cannot transform. Body can take the shape according to the desire of the soul, or according to the effects, resultant action, of one's karma. The different types of bodies are all there. Just like, in Calcutta, there are different types of apartments. So you can take an apartment or purchase an apartment according to the price you pay. That is, that is evolution. If you can pay more, then you can get nice body, nice apartment. This body is apartment. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha [Bg. 14.18]. If you are regulated in the modes of goodness, sattva-stha, sattva-guna, then you are promoted to the higher planetary system, higher system of life. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is also said that sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto sanjayate [Bg. 6.41]. One who is not mature in his performance of yoga, he is given chance, another chance -- another chance in a very nice family, sucinam, very pure brahmana family; srimatam, very rich, royal or very rich mercantile family. These are chances. Nature, under the order of Krsna, is giving chances to us, giving chance to us to come out of the entanglement of birth and death: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. One should be intelligent to see the troubles of these four incidences of life: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. That is the whole Vedic system -- how to get out of these clutches. But they're given chance that "You do this, you do that, you do that,'' so regulated life, so that ultimately he can come out.

Therefore Bhagavan said, daivi sampad vimoksaya [Bg. 16.5]. If you develop daivi sampat, these qualities, as described -- ahimsa, sattva-samsuddhih, ahimsa, so many things -- then you'll get out, vimoksaya. Unfortunately, the modern civilization, they do not know what is vimoksaya. They're so blind. They do not know that there is some position which is called vimoksaya. They do not know. They do not know what is next life. There is no educational system. I am traveling all over the world. There is not a single institution which is meant for giving education about the transmigration of the soul, how one can get better life. But they don't believe. They have no knowledge. That is asuri sampat. That will be described here: pravrttim ca nivrttim ca jana na vidur asurah. Pravrttim. Pravrttim means attraction, or attachment. In what sort of activities we should be attached, and what sort of activities we shall be detached, that, the asuras, they do not know. Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca.

pravrttim ca nivrttim ca
jana na vidur asurah
na saucam napi cacaro
na satyam tesu vidyate
[Bg. 16.7]

These are the asuras. They do not know how their life should be directed, in which direction. That is called pravrtti. And what sort of life they should be detached, give up, nivrtti. Pravrttis tu jivatmana. That is another. Bhunam. Nivrttis tu mahaphalam. The whole sastra, whole Vedic direction is for pravrtti-nirvrtti. They are gradually training. Just like Loke vyavayamisa-madya-seva nitya sujantoh. A living entity has got natural inclination for vyavaya, sex life; and madya sevah, intoxication; amisa sevah, and meat-eating. A natural instinct there is. But asuras, they do not try to stop it. They want to increase it. That is asura life. I have got some disease. If I want to cure it, then doctor gives me some prescription that "You don't take.'' Just like diabetic patient. He is forbidden that "Don't take sugar, don't take starch.'' Nivrtti. Similarly, the sastra gives us direction that you should be accepting these things and you should be not accepting these things, sastra. Just like in our society, we have picked up the most essential nivrtti and pravrtti. The pravrtti... We are instructing our students, "No illicit sex life, no meat-eating, no amisa-seva.'' Amisa-seva nitya sujantoh. But the sastra says that if you can give up nivrttis tu mahaphalam, then your life is successful. But we are not prepared. If you are not prepared to accept the pravrttis and not to accept the nivrttis, then one must know that he is asura. Krsna says here, pravrttim ca nivrttim ca jana na vidur asurah [Bg. 16.7]. They do not... "Oh, what is that?'' They say, even the big, big swamis will say, "Oh, what is there wrong? You can eat anything. It doesn't matter. You can do anything. You simply give me fees, and I give you some special mantra.'' These things are going on. So because we want such cheaters... If I say, just like in our Society, if you had been given the freedom, "Now, whatever you like you can do,'' millions of students would have come. But that is not possible. We don't make any compromise like that, that "You can do whatever you like. You can eat whatever you like.'' No. We don't restrict to the ordinary man, but if one comes forward to become our student, serious student, then he must follow this pravrtti-nirvrtti. Otherwise he remains asura. What we have to make an asura a deva. That is our process. Krsna consciousness means that it is not that if a man is born in an asura family he cannot be deva. No. He can be deva. Krsna says, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. Papa-yonayah means asura-yonayah, or lower than asura-yonayah. Striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te 'pi yanti param gatim. Everyone has got a chance.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is giving chance to everyone to become devata. It is so nice movement. Because without becoming devata he'll be entangled. He'll be entangled. He'll have to. He has to continue this four process of birth, death, disease, and old age. That he has to. Therefore Krsna says that daivi sampad vimoksaya. If you want to get rid of this troublesome material existence, threefold miserable condition of material existence, then you have to develop daivi sampat. That can be developed. It is not that stereotype, one who is condemned, he cannot be raised. No. Anyone can be raised. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Jagai and Madhai. They fell down. They're born..., they are born in brahmana family, nice family, but due to bad association they became drunkard, they became woman-hunters, meat-eating, gambling, so many, all these good qualities. At the present moment, in the human society, without these they are not civilized. They must have a club. What is this club? I have seen in Germany. Just like we have got, after few steps, a (Sanskrit?), similarly, in Hamburg I have seen, a few steps after there is a small club. What is the business of the club? The business of club that a young woman should be there, and there should be wine and cards for playing gambling. And whenever they get holiday, they, you won't find him at home. He has immediately gone to the club. You see? So these things... Not only in Germany. About, say, thirty years ago, one of my Godbrothers went to England, and Lord Zetland, he said that "Whether, Swamiji, you can make us brahmana?'' So he proposed these four things: "Yes. We can make you brahmana, provided you give up these bad habits.'' "What is that?'' "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication.'' He said, "It is impossible. This is our life!'' You see.

So it is very difficult. Therefore the pravrtti-nirvrtti, the Vedic rules have been formulated in such a way that if a man has got pravrtti for meat-eating or drinking or for sex-life or gambling... So we know that gambling is allowed on the kali-puja day. We know. Especially northern Indian people, mercantile people, they take it, advantage, gambling. And sex life is allowed married life. That is gradually nivrtti, married life; otherwise they will become upstarts. The society will be lost. And meat-eating allowed also: "All right. Just offer a goat before Kali and take that.'' Not purchase from the market or slaughterhouse. No. So these things are there just to gradually make him refrain from all these habits. Nivrtti. This is Vedic. Not that "Oh, there is in the Vedas Kali-puja. We are devotees of Kali.'' Why? For meat-eating. That's all. They are..., they become devotees of Kali only for meat-eating. That's all. There is no other devotion. So actually... So nivrtti. But that is nivrtti-marga. Nivrtti-marga. And in the Vaisnava philosophy that immediately, immediately give up these things; otherwise it will be not possible. Because in the next line it is said,

daivi sampad vimoksaya
nibandhayasuri mata
ma sucah sampadam daivim
abhijato 'si pandava
[Bg. 16.5]

"My dear Pandava, Arjuna, don't be afraid.'' Because as soon as Krsna said that daivi sampad vimoksaya, nibandhayasuri mata, so, nibhandaya asuri mata, "I am fighting now.'' This is the business of asuri. "I am now violent.'' So he became afraid that "Then I am also an asuri sampat.'' That Krsna immediately said, "No, no, no, don't be afraid.'' Ma sucah. Ma sucah sampadam daivim. "My dear Arjuna, you don't be afraid. Don't, don't be worried.'' Why? "Because you have no asuri.'' "I am fighting.'' "You are fighting for Me; therefore you are not asura.'' Those who are fighting for their sense gratification, they're asuras, but if need be fighting for, for cause, right cause... Of course, everyone thinks right cause; therefore it should be confirmed. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna fought when he understood that "This fighting is right cause, it is sanctioned by Krsna.'' Then it is right cause. You cannot make your right cause. You can not formulate that "This is right cause.'' That is mental concoction. You must get it sanctioned. That is a principle of daivi life, divine life.

Divine life means, as it is stated in the Bhagavata, that atah pumbhir dvija-srestha. In Naimisaranya, all the big brahmanas were addressed by Suta Gosvami, and he said that "My dear all the great brahmanas, you are present here,'' atah pumsam dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah. There are different duties of the varna and asrama. A brahmana has got his duty, a ksatriya has got his duty. Now, a ksatriya's duty is fighting. So how this fighting can be utilized as perfection of life? Nobody will say, "Oh! Fighting, how it is perfection, killing others?'' No. There is perfection. What is that? Atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah svanusthitasya dharmasya. You are ksatriya; your dharma is fighting. You try to please the Supreme Lord by your fighting. That is perfection. You are brahmana, so you try to please the Supreme Lord by your brahminical knowledge. What is that brahminical? Brahma janatiti brahmanah. So one who knows brahma, he is brahmana. Then, then next stage is for brahmana to become Vaisnava. To become Vaisnava. Because brahmano hi pratisthaham. Simply one, if one stop simply by brahma knowledge and does not make further progress, that is not perfection. Perfection is, Krsna says that "I am the origin of brahmajyoti.'' Therefore from the brahmajyoti one should make progress up to Krsna. Just like sunshine. You are in, everyone, is sunshine. That's all right. But if you have got power, then you'll reach the sun planet, you'll see the sun-god, because the original source of the sunshine is the sun-god. Similarly, brahmajyoti, the origin of brahmajyoti is Krsna, brahmano hi pratisthaham. Brahmajyoti is emanating from the body of Krsna. It is, it is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita, yasya prabha prabhavato jagand-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. So in this way we make progress. So here Arjuna, although he was fighter, Arjuna did not change his position. He did not become a brahmana. After hearing Bhagavad-gita it is not that he gave up his profession as a ksatriya and went to Himalaya to become a brahmana, meditation. No. He became perfect by his own profession. How? Because he satisfied Krsna. So you can be situated in any position. That does not matter. But try to satisfy Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness movement: how to satisfy Krsna. It is not very difficult. Krsna says... Now you can say that "Arjuna was a fighter, and there was great need of the Kuruksetra fighting, so he satisfied Krsna, but I am a poor man, I am not Ksatriya, not (indistinct).'' That doesn't matter. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. No, you come here. Here is Krsna. You always think of Krsna, man-mana. You become devotee of Krsna. Whatever you can, offer to Krsna. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji: you worship Krsna. If you don't come here, you can do it in, at your home. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Somehow or other, you become Krsna conscious. There is no difficulty. "No, I have no money. I cannot worship Krsna in this way, so gorgeously.'' No. That Krsna does not say. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam: "If you are poor man, all right, you give Me little fruit, little flower, little water, I'll eat it.'' Then what do you want more? Or if you cannot do anything, chant Hare Krsna.

So Krsna consciousness movement is so easy. Everyone can take it and make his life successful. Daivi sampad vimoksaya nibandhayasuri mata, ma sucah sampadam... [Bg. 16.5]. Here, just to tell the devotees that even they are engaged, that Hanuman become engaged in fighting with Ravana, but he became the greatest devotee of Lord Ramacandra. Arjuna also became engaged with, in fighting with the Kauravas, and he is the greatest. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg. 4.3]. Krsna gives (indistinct) to him: "You are My dear friend, priyo 'si bhakto 'si.'' Similarly, we can do everything for Krsna. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa
yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

Yare dekha tare kaha krsna... Everyone, you can do that. There is no difficulty. Pranair arthair dhiya vaca. Any..., somebody can dedicate his life, somebody can dedicate his money, somebody can dedicate his intelligence, somebody can dedicate his words. So it is not at all difficulty. In this way, simply by accepting the process of Krsna consciousness, one develops the daivi sampat, divine quality. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunair tatra samasate surah. As soon as one becomes devotee, with all the divinely, godly qualities one becomes developed.

yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana
sarvair gunair tatra samasate surah
harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna
mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih
[SB 5.18.12]

Because people are not devotees of God, therefore despite all education, all advancement of scientific knowledge, still they are dealing like cats and dogs. They are not peaceful. The peace cannot be attained without Krsna consciousness. Aham hi sarva-yajnanam bhokta ca prabhur eva ca. Simply by practicing Krsna consciousness there can be peace, there can be prosperity, there can be happiness. Otherwise we shall be entangled. It is clearly mentioned here by Krsna, daivi sampad vimoksaya. And daivi sampat means, the example is Arjuna. He immediately takes up, Arjuna: ma sucah. "You are, you are already developed with daivi, daivi sampat.'' Ma sucah: "You haven't got to worry.''

Abhijato 'si, "From the birth you are born devotee; therefore daivi sampat. You are born devotee.'' The Pandava, whole Pandava family, they are devotees. Therefore, simply if you become devotee of Lord Krsna, then you acquire all the daivi sampat, and then your life is successful. You become.

In another place also Krsna says, in the Fourth Chapter, that janma karma me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. Without daivi sampat nobody can understand Krsna. Without daivi sampat. Both ways. If you try to understand Krsna, then automatically the daivi sampat will be developed; or by developing daivi sampat you can understand Krsna. But that is very difficult. Better you touch the electric and you become electrified. Simply by, simply by mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate [Bg. 14.26]. That Krsna advised. Simply avyabhicarena, pure devotional service. If you engage yourself in pure devotional service to Krsna, then sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kal... [Bg. 14.26], immediately you become elevated to the position of brahma. These things are described very nicely, explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Our only propaganda is that you try to avoid these four principles of sinful life: illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. And chant Hare Krsna and read Bhagavad-gita -- your life is successful.

Thank you very much. [break] ...on this side.

Guest: Yes. Bhagavad-gita teaches us that one should treat a piece of gold...
Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: ...a piece of gold and a piece of stone alike. Is it practically considered?

Prabhupada: Where it is stated?

Devotee: One should treat a piece of gold and a piece of stone...

Prabhupada: Where it is stated?

Guest: In the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Where? You recite the sloka.

Guest: Well I can't...

Prabhupada: That's all. This is not question. If you have no clear idea, where the question? Where it is stated? Do you..., are practically can do that -- a piece of gold and piece of stone, the same thing? There is a verse, sama-lostrasma-kancanah. So that is very advanced stage, when one knows that everything is made of matter, so what is the value? Why you can't give more value to the stone, because originally everything is made of matter? There is one thing, panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. But that is when one has attained a very perfectional stage, not for the ordinary man. Ordinary man, you cannot say that "I treat a piece of stone and piece of gold the same way.'' Then why don't you take a piece of stone? Can you say? Suppose if you have gone to a, purchasing to a goldsmith shop. So I say, "Sir, you take this ornament made of stone and you pay me the price of gold.'' Would you agree? Then there is no such... It must be practical. In the practical life that is very higher stage. Those who do not care either for... Just like Sanatana Gosvami. Sanatana Goswami was Vrndavana. He was chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, always. Then, one brahmana, he was very poor -- perhaps you know this story -- he worshiped Lord Siva, and when Lord Siva was pleased, then he wanted to take him, give him some benediction. So, "What do you want?'' So he said, "Give me the best thing, so I shall be the greatest of all.'' That he said, "Oh, I haven't got such thing, but if you want, you go to Sanatana Goswami.'' "Where is Sanatana Gosvami?'' "Vrndavana.'' So when he went there, so he had a touchstone. The touchstone was kept with the garbage, and he asked him, "All right, you take that. You are poor man. You take the stone, and if you touch this stone with iron, it will turn into gold. You take this. Find out in that garbage.'' So he took it and went away. So on the street he began to think that "Lord Siva advised me that 'He has the best thing. You go there.' But he has given me this stone -- it is very nice -- but why did he keep it with the garbage? He has not delivered me the best thing.'' So he returned back. So when he returned back, then Sanatana Goswami..., he said, "Sir, I, I, this is very nice, but I don't think this is the best thing, because Lord Siva said me that you have the best thing. If it is the best thing, why did you keep it with the garbage?'' So Sanatana Goswami smiled and said, "Yes, it is not the best thing, but for you it was the best thing. You want more than this, more valuable?'' "Yes, sir. For that purpose I came.'' "Then take this stone and throw in the Yamuna.'' So he threw it, and, "Sit down, chant Hare Krsna.'' You see? Those who are actually attached, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], for them it is equally valuable. Not for ordinary men. So we cannot jump to the highest position. That is not possible. Therefore we have to go abhayam sattva-samsuddhih. This process is recommended. Krsna says, and Krsna says also this. So actually, Krsna says ultimately, sarva-guhyatamam, "The most confidential knowledge I am giving you: sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66]. This is the most confidential.'' So, so long we are not able to come to the platform of thinking the gold and the stone on the equal value, we have to follow these rules and regulation. But that is the highest consideration. Just like Sanatana Goswami, he didn't care for this touchstone. Not for the ordinary man. The ordinary man cannot make that all of a sudden; therefore it is not for him. So what was the purpose of saying that Gita says sama-lostrasma-kancanah? Why did you raise this question? What is the purpose? We can not raise, ordinary man, but why did you raise this question? What is the purpose?

Guest: I think this is practical for a householder.

Prabhupada: But I don't think. Then what is the difference? Therefore, household luxury is allowed up to fiftieth year in order to learn, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. That is Vedic system. Not to remain householder until you are fired, you see, or you are taken by death. Just like our big leaders. They won't give up their householder's life unless he is fired to death, or death takes him away. That is not very good proposition. My Guru Maharaja used to say that this householder life means it is a concession for sense gratification. That's all. But our position is that we should not continue sense gratification for all the life. The sense gratification process is going on by the hogs and dogs throughout the whole life, but we should not be like hogs and dogs. We should cease at a certain time. Pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. So far, no more. That should be our model. Not that continue. That, that is Vedic way of life. Pravrttim-nivrtti. So long pravrtti, attraction for household life, and next nivrtti, "Now I shall be detached.'' But the asuras, as it is said, pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na vidur asurah janah [Bg. 16.7]. And if you continue simply pravrtti-marga, then you'll remain asura; you don't become deva. The whole process Vedic system is, even if you are asuras, gradually by practice, by good association, by following the principles of sastra, we can become deva. So our, this Krsna consciousness movement, actually we're doing that. These boys, they are so..., according to our sastras they are born in asura families, but they are coming deva. And they have become devas. So that is not impossible. It doesn't matter, janmana jayate sudrah sanskarad bhaved dvijah. Anyone can be born of lowborn, sudra-born, or lower than sudra born, but by this process, Krsna consciousness, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah ye 'nye ca papa [SB 2.4.18] -- more than, still lower born -- sudhyanti prabhavisnave namah. That is the wonderful, I mean to say, power of the Supreme Lord. So we are trying to bring everyone -- Hindus, Muslims, or mlecchas, Yavanas, Kirata, Andhras -- anyone come to Krsna consciousness, there is no limitation. We don't say, "No. Because you are born in this family, you can not take to Krsna consciousness.'' Everyone can. Just like in Africa, they are also taking. They are becoming Vaisnava.

So this is our main business. This is the business of every Indian. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said,

bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

Janma sarthaka kari. First of all we have to make our life perfect by following these principles. Not that we shall remain all along grhastha. No. That is not Vedic injunction. At a certain age you must give up your grhastha life. Whatever is done is done. That's all. Finished. That is Vedic civilization. Brahmacari, vanaprastha, uh..., grhastha, vanaprastha, then sannyasa. Four orders of spiritual life and four orders of material life, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. This is called varnasrama-dharma. So India, it is especially practiced, India. This bharata-bhumi specially. Therefore bharata-bhumi is called punya-bhumi. But we are giving up all this. We are becoming allured by something else. That is our misfortune. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 16.5 -- Calcutta, February 23, 1972

Become Devotee Or Remain Demon 75/01/30 Hawaii, Bhagavad-gita 16.4

By: Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



Nitai: "Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance -- these qualities belong to those of demonic nature, O son of Prtha."

Prabhupada:

dambho darpo 'bhimanas ca
krodhah parusyam eva ca
ajnanam cabhijatasya
partha sampadam asurim

We have discussed last night some of the divine characteristics, and abhayam sattva-samsuddhih, like that, sixteen divine characteristics. And here the demonic characteristics. We can understand a thing by analysis of characteristics. In the chemical laboratory, things are tested by characteristics. Just like this chemical: "Color is like this. Shape is like this. Then taste is like this. Then chemical reaction is like this." They are stated for each and every chemical, and we can understand the purity by the characteristic. The characteristic is also called dharma. Just like a snake. The snake characteristic is that unnecessarily, without any offense, it bites, and the animal which is bitten, he dies. This is the characteristic. Without any fault... The snake is going, and the other animal is going. Go, but the characteristic of snake is unnecessarily bites. This is the characteristic.

Canakya Pandita says, sarpah krurah khalah krurah sarpat kruratarah khalah, that "Two kinds of krurah, envious animals, are there. One is the snake, and the other is envious man." So Canakya Pandita said that "Both of them envious, but the envious man is more dangerous than the envious snake." Why? "Now, because the snake can be brought into submission..." (tapping noise) (Aside:) What is that? "...by herbs and mantra." There are snake charmer. They chant mantras, and they apply some herb, and the snake come under subjugation. But khalah kena nivaryate: "But the snake-like man, he cannot be subdued at any cost."

So there are characteristics. By the characteristics we can understand who is a godly man and who is a demonic man. So they are stated. And the next verse is that daivi sampad vimoksaya. If one has these divine characteristics, then he is eligible for going to the spiritual world. Vimoksaya. Daivi sampad vimoksaya nibandhaya asuri mata. But these demonic characteristic, dambho darpah abhimanas ca parusyam ajnanam sampad asuri, if we develop this kind of characteristic, then it is our material bondage. So we are the cause of material bondage and freedom from material world. We are, ourself, the cause. There is no other cause. Simply we have to develop either this demonic characteristic or the divine characteristic. So human life is meant for developing divine characteristic, not this demonic char... Demonic characteristic is already there. Just like dambhah. A dog has also pride: "I am this dog, grr." (laughter) "I am fox terrier. I am this. I am that." So dambhah is there even in the dog, even in the lower animal, even in the cat. But the divine characteristic, "Oh, I am so low," Trnad api sunicena, "I am lower than the grass. I am lower than the grass"... This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teaching. What is this dambhah? Why I should be pride? What is this pride? So that is ignorance, due to ignorance. When one man is unnecessarily proud, that means it is due to ignorance. And Caitanya-caritamrta author, he describes himself that "I am lower than the worms in the stool."

purisera kita haite muni se laghistha
jagai madhai haite muni se papistha

Adambhitvam. In the Ninth Chapter. Just the opposite. Why I shall be proud? What I have got? I am humble servant of Krsna. Let me discharge my duties. But if one is proud after becoming a pure servant of Krsna, that is very good. That dambhah, that pride, is very glorious. "I am a servant of Krsna." That is very nice. So one become... One has got the tendency to become proud. So if one is proud to become a cats and dog or a tiger or a so-called big man of this material world, that is for his bondage. Asuri. Daivi sampad vimoksaya. And that is daivi... If you become proud in daivi sampad, if you become proud by becoming the most confidential servant of Krsna, the same pride is for your liberation. And if you become proud that "I am minister," or "I am this big dog or big...," that is for nibandhaya, your bondage, you will continue material life. By your spiritual pride... Of course, we must be proud after being situated in the spiritual platform. Otherwise that is also ignorance. So two things are there, daivi sampad and asuri sampad. Asuri sampad means more and more entanglement and bondage within this material world. And daivi sampad means your freedom from material world.

So first of all we must decide what we want. Whatever you want, you will have. Krsna is very kind. If you want to remain bound up by the laws of material nature within this material world... Karanam guna-sango 'sya. As we contaminate the different material modes of nature, we get different situation of life, different forms of body, different circumstances. Krsna has arranged everything very accurately. His arrangement is very perfect. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. When He does something, He desires only. By His desires, the energies are there. Immediately the energy works. Just like you have got some energy. If you desire, immediately it begins to work. You have got experience. Similarly, we have got limited number of energies, and Krsna has got unlimited number of energies. So if we desire to become something unlimitedly, Krsna can supply you your necessities unlimitedly. Ye yatha mam prapadyante. That freedom is there. If you want to remain as a demon, then Krsna will supply you all the ingredients, how you can flourish as a demon.

Just like there was Hiranyakasipu and there was Prahlada. Prahlada was being supplied spiritual advancement of life, necessities, and Hiranyakasipu was being supplied for demonic status of life. So it is Krsna's pleasure that whatever you want, you can get it. You get all advantage by Krsna. If you want to become a demon, Krsna will supply you, "All right, you become a demon. You take whatever you want from Me." He will give you. Similarly, if you want to become a demigod or devotee, Krsna will supply you all the necessities. Now it is my choice whether I shall become a demon and whether I shall become a devotee. This is my choice. Krsna is equal to everyone. Samo 'ham sarva-bhutesu. Otherwise how He is God? If He is partial to somebody, then He is not God. He must be equal. He is equal to the devotee and non-devotee. Whatever the nondevotees want, Krsna supplies. And whatever the devotees want, Krsna supplies.

But He is very much pleased with the devotee. Therefore, his supplies are very immediate, and the demonic supply, that will depend on his work, karma. It will depend on the karma. And devotee's supply, because this is bhakti, it is immediately there. That is the difference. Krsna says that. Ye tu bhajanti mam pritya tesu te mayi. There are millions of living beings. Some of them are devotees, and many of them are non-devotees. So Krsna is kind to the nondevotees also. Whatever he wants, He will give him. But the necessities of the devotee is the first consideration for Krsna. Ye tu bhajanti mam pritya tesu te mayi. That is Krsna's... As the devotee is only searching the opportunity, how to serve Krsna, similarly, Krsna is also very eager to serve the devotee. That is a reciprocation of devotional service.

Now it is our choice whether we want to become a devotee or whether we want to remain a demon. That is my choice. Krsna says that "You give up this demonic engagement and surrender to Me." That is Krsna's desire. But if you do not agree with Krsna's desire, if you want to enjoy your own desire, then also, Krsna is also pleased, He will supply you the necessities. But that is not very good. We should agree to Krsna's desires. We should not allow our desires, demonic desires, to grow. That is called tapasya. Our desires we should sacrifice. That is called sacrifice. We should only accept Krsna's desire. That is the instruction of the Bhagavad-gita. Arjuna's desire was not to fight, but Krsna's desire was to fight, just the opposite. Arjuna ultimately agreed to Krsna's desire: "Yes," karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]: "Yes, I will act according to Your desire." That is bhakti.

This is the difference bhakti and karma. Karma means to fulfill my desires, and bhakti means to fulfill Krsna's desires. That is the difference. Now you make your choice, whether you want to make your desires fulfilled or if you want to make Krsna's desire fulfilled. If you make your decision to make Krsna's desire fulfilled, then your life is successful. That is our Krsna conscious life. "Krsna wants it; I must do it. I will not do anything for me." That is Vrndavana. All the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they are trying to fulfill Krsna's desire. The cowherds boys, the calves, the cows, the trees, the flowers, the water, the gopis, the elderly inhabitants, mother Yasoda, Nanda, they are all engaged in fulfilling Krsna's desire. That is Vrndavana. So you can turn this material world into Vrndavana provided you agree to fulfill the desires of Krsna. That is Vrndavana. And if you want to fulfill your own desires, that is material. This is the difference between material and spiritual.

The same thing, this house. This house is a house. The next door is a karmi's house, and this house is a temple. What is the difference? The difference is: in this house everyone is engaged to fulfill Krsna's desire, and the other house, everyone is engaged in fulfilling his own desire. Therefore it is temple, and that is house. Otherwise, from the external feature, where is the difference? The same stone, the same wood, the same plants, the same land, the same kitchen -- everything is same, and the business is the same. But here the business is to satisfy Krsna, and the other houses, the business is to satisfy one's own senses. That is the difference between kama and prema. When you try to fulfill the desires of Krsna, that is prema. And when you want to fulfill your own desires, that is called kama. There is no other.

Just like the gopis. The gopis are going to Krsna, being captivated by the beauty of Krsna, just like a young girl becomes captivated by seeing a very nice boy, or a nice boy is captivated to see the beauty of a girl. These are sense gratification. There is no prema; that is kama. But the gopis, they are going to Krsna, superficially the same thing, like the young girls are going to a young boy, but they are going for Krsna's satisfaction, not for their own satisfaction. That is the sublime. Therefore gopis are so held in estimation even by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Ramya kecid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargabhir ya kalpita: "There is no better type of upasana, worship, than it was conceived by the gopis." Caitanya Mahaprabhu admitted that the topmost method of worshiping Krsna is the type of worship offered by the gopis. Topmost. Gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari-kallola-magnau muhur vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau. The Gosvamis were always thinking of the gopis' service to Krsna. Gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi.

So now the two things are there. The divine characteristic and the demonic characteristic. Both of them are there, now you have to select which one you want. If you actually want to love Krsna, then take this divine characteristic. There is no cause of helplessness. You can... Just like amanitvam. Here it is said, dambhah, adambhitvam. Adambhitvam, without any dambhah. Here it is said, abhayam sattva-samsuddhir jnana-yoga-vyavasthitih. So you can practice this. That is devotional life. You have to practice this. If you want to be divine, your characteristics have to be changed. Here we are busy... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 16.4 -- Hawaii, January 30, 1975

Dealing With Cats And Dogs 76/06/26 New Vrndavana, Bhagavad-gita 16.1-16

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada



Dhrstadyumna: "Performance of sacrifice, study of the Vedas, austerity and simplicity, nonviolence, truthfulness, freedom from anger, renunciation, tranquillity, aversion to fault-finding, compassion and freedom from covetousness, gentleness, modesty and steady determination, vigor, forgiveness, fortitude, cleanliness, freedom from envy and the passion for honor -- these transcendental qualities, O son of Bharata, belong to godly men endowed with divine nature." (purport) "In the beginning of the Fifteenth Chapter the banyan tree of this material world was explained. The extra roots coming out of it were compared to the activities of the living entities, some auspicious, some inauspicious. In the Ninth Chapter also the devas, or godly, and asuras, the ungodly or demons, were explained. Now according to Vedic rites, activities in the mode of goodness are considered auspicious for progress on the path of liberation, and such activities are known as daivi prakrti, transcendental by nature. Those who are situated in the transcendental nature make progress..."

Prabhupada: The defect of modern civilization is that they have no idea about liberation. Neither they have any idea about transmigration of the soul. From the very root, they are defective. They are thinking... Just like animals. Dog is thinking, "I am this dog. I am born dog and I'll die, that's finished, everything." He cannot think that "I can become also man." He cannot think that. So the modern civilization, they cannot think even that there is next life and we can go... They have got the tendency to go to the higher planetary system, moon. Artificially, they are trying, but they do not know. Just like they can go to any planet, sarvaga. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. They do not know this, although they have got the tendency to go. But they do not know how to go, positively what are the position of the different planets or Vaikunthaloka or liberation or next life, transmigration -- nothing of the sort. Simply like dogs. Now consider this point, whether I'm speaking right or wrong. I know I am speaking the right thing, but if you deny, then you talk amongst yourselves.

Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, they think that liberation means that you can do anything you like, that you are free from any moral or ethic...

Prabhupada: That is the rascaldom. That is rascaldom. Just like in prison house, if a prisoner thinks that he can do whatever he likes, that is rascaldom. That is going on. The modern civilization is rascaldom. He is seeing practically that he's under the control of material nature, and still he thinks that "I can do whatever I like." This is rascaldom.

Pusta Krsna: The Christian conception of salvation was more one of being saved from hell rather than an attraction for some transcendental reality.

Prabhupada: Christian conception... Mass of people, they do not know what is hell because they are living in the hell already. That was the story. When hell was described, he was undisturbed, but when he was informed that there was no newspaper in hell then he became... "Horrible. How one can live there without newspaper?" So so far hellish condition is there now... Pradyumna, where is Pradyumna Maharaja?

Kuladri: He is showering.

Prabhupada: He was describing about that factory. So they are working in the factory, what do they care for hell? Even if we go to hell, they will get some good salary, that's all. Money required, then I can drink nicely. The standard is there. Now this qualification, abhayam sattva-samsuddhir, what is that? It does not strike them at all, these qualities are high qualities. Is it not? This is the... What is the translation?

Dhrstadyumna: "Fearlessness, purification of one's existence."

Prabhupada: And who is fearless? Everyone is fearful. And fearlessness is good quality, who understands it? Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca, this is animal life. To eat, sleep, sex and become fearful, that is animal life. And one has to become fearless. So who cares for it? They are thinking to become fearless means to keep gun. That is also one way. Then, fearlessness and...?

Dhrstadyumna: "Purification of one's existence."

Prabhupada: That they do not know. When they fall sick, then they want to purify, go to the physician, but his whole life is impure, he doesn't know. Because it is impure, therefore they are subjected to birth, death, old age and disease. That they do not know. But if you scrutinizingly examine all these different items of advancement of life, the modern man has no idea. That is being explained in this chapter. Therefore there is no such education, neither people are interested. Now higher art classes in the colleges, universities, no student will join. They are simply learning technological process. Go on.

Dhrstadyumna: "Those who are situated in the transcendental nature make progress on the path of liberation. For those who are acting in the modes of passion and ignorance, on the other hand, there is no possibility of liberation. Either they will have to remain in this material..."

Prabhupada: They say "What we care for liberation? It is troublesome. You have to sacrifice so many things. We don't want liberation. That is nonsensical. You keep your liberation. We don't want." This is the problem. As you said, liberation means "Whatever I like I will do." But that is, actually, he cannot do that. But he's thinking that he's liberated. Can he do that, whatever he likes? But still he's... Therefore rascal. Dog's life. The dog is jumping, barking, that "I'm free now." But he forgets that as soon as the master will call and chain him, he'll do it. But he's thinking that "I'm liberated." This is the problem. What is his liberation? He does not know what is liberation.

Dhrstadyumna: "Either they will have to remain in this material world as human beings or they will descend among the species of the animals or even lower life forms."

Prabhupada: Ah, they will say, "All bogus. This life, finished. I am free." That is the problem. This is their position.

Dhrstadyumna: We were finding, Srila Prabhupada, that they could not defeat varnasrama dharma. They had no society like varnasrama. In the colleges, they could not understand this body, but we showed them how the society could be arranged harmoniously, and they had no alternative. Their ideas on how to structure society for everyone's happiness, they have no good ideas. So that preaching platform they could understand, varnasrama.

Prabhupada: They'll understand. I'm just pointing out the difficulties of your preaching. You'll have to face all these difficulties. They're like cats and dogs. They are not even human beings. Therefore the business is little hard job. You have to deal with cats and dogs. But still there is hope, because they have got this human form of life. There is hope. It is not hopeless. Don't be disappointed, but this is the job. You have to meet with cats and dogs. That is my point. When you go to preach you must know that "I've come to preach among cats and dogs, and I have to deal with them carefully; otherwise, they will bark." (laughter) Therefore I wrote that poetry in disappointment before entering in your country, that "What they will understand, this philosophy?" Hmm, go on.

Dhrstadyumna: "In this Sixteenth Chapter the Lord explains both the transcendental nature and its attendant qualities as well as the demoniac nature and its qualities. He also explains the advantages and disadvantages of these qualities. The word abhijatasya in reference to one born of transcendental qualities or godly tendencies is very significant. To beget a child in a godly atmosphere is known in the Vedic scriptures as garbhadhana-samskara. If the parents want a child in the godly qualities they should follow the ten principles of the human being. In Bhagavad-gita we have studied also before that sex life for begetting a good child is Krsna Himself. Sex life is not condemned provided the process is used in Krsna consciousness. Those who are in Krsna consciousness at least should not beget children like cats and dogs but should beget them so they may become Krsna conscious after birth. That should be the advantage of children born of a mother or father absorbed in Krsna consciousness. The social institution known as varnasrama dharma, the institution dividing society into four divisions or castes, is not meant to divide human society according to birth. Such divisions are in terms of educational qualifications. They are to keep the society in a state of peace and prosperity. The qualities mentioned herein are explained as transcendental qualities meant for making a person progress in spiritual understanding so he can get liberated from the material world."

Prabhupada: So where is that institution to train people to acquire these transcendental qualities? There is no such institution. We are attempting to qualify the man in transcendental qualities. This is the only institution. Otherwise, where it is? I don't think, throughout the whole world, there is any institution to train the students in transcendental qualities. Who cares for transcendental qualities? Go on.

Dhrstadyumna: "In the varnasrama institution the sannyasi, or the person in the renounced order of life, is considered to be the head or the spiritual master of all the social statuses and orders. A brahmana is considered to be the spiritual master of the three other sections of society, namely the ksatriya, the vaisya and the sudra. But a sannyasi, who is on the top of the institution, is considered to be the spiritual master of the brahmanas also. For a sannyasi the first qualification should be fearlessness. Because a sannyasi has to be alone without any support or guarantee of support, he has simply to depend on the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he thinks ‘After leaving my connections, who will protect me?' he should not accept the renounced order of life. One must be fully convinced that Krsna, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His localized aspect as Paramatma, is always within, and He is seeing everything, and that He always knows what one intends to do. One must have this firm conviction that Krsna as Paramatma will take care of a soul surrendered unto Him. ‘I shall never be alone,' one should think..."

Prabhupada: Hmm. Don't divert your attention.

Dhrstadyumna: " ‘I shall never be alone,' one should think. ‘Even if I live in the darkest regions of a forest, I shall be accompanied by Krsna, and He will give me all protection.' That conviction is called abhayam, ‘without fear.' This state of mind is necessary for a person in the renounced order of life. Then he has to purify his existence. There are so many rules and regulations to be followed in the renounced order of life. Most important of all, a sannyasi is strictly forbidden to have any intimate relationship with a woman. He is even forbidden to talk with a woman in a secluded place. Lord Caitanya was an ideal sannyasi, and when He was at Puri His feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects. They were advised to bow down from a distant place. This is not a sign of hatred for women as a class, but it is a stricture imposed on a sannyasi not to have close connections with women. One has to follow the rules and regulations of a particular status of life in order to purify his existence. For a sannyasi, intimate relations with a woman and possessions of wealth for sense gratification are strictly forbidden. The ideal sannyasi was Lord Caitanya Himself, and we can learn from His life that He was very strict in regards to women. Although He is considered to be the most liberal incarnation of Godhead, accepting the most fallen conditioned souls, He strictly followed the rules and regulations of the sannyasa order of life in connection with association with women. One of His personal associates, namely Chota Haridasa, was personally associated with Lord Caitanya along with His other confidential personal associates. But somehow or other this Chota Haridasa looked lustfully on a young woman, and Lord Caitanya was so strict that He at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates. Lord Caitanya said, ‘For a sannyasi, or anyone who is aspiring to get out of the clutches of material nature and trying to elevate himself to the spiritual nature and go back to home, back to Godhead, for him, looking towards material possessions and women for sense gratification -- not even enjoying them, but just looking toward them with such a propensity -- is so condemned that he had better commit suicide before experiencing such illicit desires.' So these are the processes for purification. The next item is jnana-yoga-vyavasthitih: being engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. Sannyasi life is meant for distributing knowledge to the householders and others who have forgotten their real life of spiritual advancement. A sannyasi is supposed to beg from door to door for his livelihood, but that does not mean that he is a beggar. Humility is also one of the qualifications of a transcendentally situated person, and out of sheer humility the sannyasi goes from door to door, not exactly for the purpose of begging but to see the householders and awaken them to Krsna consciousness. This is the duty of a sannyasi. If he is actually advanced and so ordered by his spiritual master, he should preach Krsna consciousness with logic and understanding."

Prabhupada: As a gentleman, if you go to somebody's house, you require his permission, but India, still, a sannyasi doesn't require any permission. He can enter in any householder's house: "Mother, give me some food." This is the introduction. Not that he has gone there for food, but easy introduction. And generally the householder will receive a sannyasi, "Yes, Swamiji, come here, sit down." They will offer obeisances and then they begin talks. This is the meaning. Not that he is hankering after food. This is only introduction. He's not a beggar. But people take advantage of this dress because they think that "Without any work I can beg and live." That is going on in India. So many rascals, they are taking this sannyasi dress and living at the cost of others. Therefore people have become disgusted. They have no knowledge to preach. Yes, go on.

Dhrstadyumna: "If he is actually advanced and so ordered by his spiritual master, he should preach Krsna consciousness with logic and understanding. And if he is not so advanced, he should not accept the renounced order of life. But even if he has accepted the renounced order of life without sufficient knowledge, he should engage himself fully in hearing from a bona fide spiritual master to cultivate knowledge. A sannyasi, or one in the renounced order of life, must be situated in fearlessness, sattva-samsuddhih (purity), and jnana-yoga (knowledge). The next item is charity. Charity is meant for the householders. The householders should earn a livelihood by honorable means and spend fifty percent of their income to propagate Krsna consciousness all over the world. Thus a householder should give in charity to such institutional societies that are engaged in that way. Charity should be given to the right receiver. There are different kinds of charities, as will be explained later: charity in the modes of goodness, passion and ignorance. Charity in the mode of goodness is recommended by the scriptures, but charity in the modes of passion and ignorance is not recommended, because it is simply a waste of money. Charity should be given only to propagate Krsna consciousness all over the world. That is charity in the mode of goodness. Then as far as dama (self-control) is concerned, it is not only meant for other orders of religious society, but it is especially meant for the householder. Although he has a wife, the householder should not use his senses for sex life unnecessarily. There are restrictions for the householders even in sex life, which should only be engaged for the propagation of children. If he does not require children, he should not enjoy sex life with his wife. Modern society enjoys sex life with contraceptive methods or more abominable methods to avoid the responsibility of children. This is not in the transcendental quality, but it is demoniac. If anyone, even if he is a householder, wants to make progress in spiritual life, he must control his sex life and should not beget a child without the purpose of serving Krsna. If he is able to beget children who will be in Krsna consciousness, one can produce hundreds of children, but without this capacity one should not indulge only for sense pleasure. Sacrifice is another item to be performed by the householders, because sacrifices require a large amount of money. Other orders of life, namely the brahmacarya, the vanaprastha and sannyasa, have no money; they live by begging. So performance of different types of sacrifice is meant for the householder. They should perform agni-hotra sacrifices as enjoined in the Vedic literature, but such sacrifices at the present moment are very expensive, and it is not possible for any householder to perform them. The best sacrifice recommended in this age is called sankirtana-yajna, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, this is the best and the most inexpensive sacrifice. Everyone can adopt it and derive benefit. So these three items, namely charity, sense control and performance of sacrifice, are meant for the householder. Then svadhyaya (Vedic study), and tapas (austerity), and arjavam (gentleness or simplicity) are meant for the brahmacarya, or student life. Brahmacaris should have no connection with women; they should live a life of celibacy and engage the mind in the study of Vedic literature for the cultivation of spiritual knowledge. This is called svadhyaya. Tapas, or austerity, is especially meant for the retired life. One should not remain a householder throughout his whole life; he must always remember that there are four divisions of life: brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. So after grhastha, householder life, one should retire. If one lives for a hundred years, one should spend twenty-five years in student life, twenty-five years in household life, twenty-five in retired life and twenty-five in the renounced order of life. These are the regulations of the Vedic religious discipline. A man retired from household life must practice austerities of the body, mind and tongue. That is tapasya. The entire varnasrama dharma society is meant for tapasya. Without tapasya, or austerity, no human being can get liberation. The theory that there is no need of austerity in life, that one can go on speculating and everything will be nice, is neither recommended in the Vedic literature nor in the Bhagavad-gita. Such theories are manufactured by show-bottle spiritualists who are trying to gather more followers. If there are restrictions, rules and regulations, people will not become attracted. Therefore those who want followers in the name of religion, just to have a show only, don't restrict the lives of their students, nor their own lives. But that method is not approved by the Vedas. As far as simplicity is concerned, not only should a particular order of life follow this principle, but every member, be he in the brahmacari-asrama, or grhastha-asrama, or vanaprastha-asrama. One must live very simply. Ahimsa means not arresting the progressive life of any living entity. One should not think that since the spirit spark is never killed even after the killing of the body, there is no harm in killing animals for sense gratification. People are now addicted to eating animals, in spite of having an ample supply of grains, fruits and milk. There is no necessity for animal killing. This injunction is for everyone. When there is no other alternative, one may kill an animal, but it should be offered in sacrifice. At any rate, when there is an ample food supply for humanity, persons who are desiring to make advancement in spiritual realization should not commit violence to animals. Real ahimsa means not checking anyone's progressive life. The animals are also making progress in their evolutionary life by transmigrating from one category of animal life to another. If a particular animal is killed, then his progress is checked. If an animal is staying in a particular body for so many days or so many years and is untimely killed, then he has to come back again in that form of life to complete the remaining days in order to be promoted to another species of life. So their progress should not checked simply to satisfy one's palate. This is called ahimsa. Satyam: This word means that one should not distort the truth for some personal interest. In Vedic literature there are some difficult passages, but the meaning or the purpose should be learned from a bona fide spiritual master. That is the process for understanding the Vedas. Sruti means that one should hear from the authority. One should not construe some interpretation for his personal interest. There are so many commentaries on Bhagavad-gita that misinterpret the original text. The real import of the word should be presented, and that should be learned from a bona fide spiritual master. Akrodha means to check anger. Even if there is provocation, one should be tolerant, for once one becomes angry his whole body becomes polluted. Anger is the product of the modes of passion and lust, so one who is transcendentally situated should check himself from anger. Apaisunam means that one should not find fault with others or correct them unnecessarily. Of course, to call a thief a thief is not fault-finding, but to call an honest person a thief is very much offensive for one who is making advancement in spiritual life. Hri means that one should be very modest and must not perform some act which is abominable. Acapalam, ‘determination,' means that one should not be agitated or frustrated in some attempt. There may be failure in some attempt, but one should not be sorry for that; he should make progress with patience and determination. The word tejah used here is meant for the ksatriyas. The ksatriyas should always be very strong to be able to give protection to the weak. They should not pose themselves as nonviolent. If violence is required, they must exhibit it. Saucam means cleanliness, not only in mind and body but in one's dealings also. It is especially meant for the mercantile people, who should not deal in the black market. Nati-manita, ‘not expecting honor,' applies to the sudras, the worker class, which are considered, according to Vedic injunctions, to be the lowest of the four classes. They should not be puffed up with unnecessary prestige or honor and should remain in their own status. It is the duty of the sudras to offer respect to the higher class for the upkeep of the social order. All these sixteen qualifications mentioned are transcendental qualities. They should be cultivated according to the different statuses of the social order. The purport is that even though material conditions are miserable, if these qualities are developed by practice, by all classes of men, then gradually it is possible to rise to the highest platform of transcendental realization." Text 4.

dambho darpo 'bhimanas ca
krodhah parusyam eva ca
ajnanam cabhijatasya
partha sampadam asurim

"Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance -- these qualities belong to those of demoniac nature, O son of Prtha." (purport) "In this verse the royal road to hell is described. The demoniac want to make a show of religion and advancement in spiritual science, although they do not follow the principles. They are always arrogant or proud in possessing some type of education or so much wealth. They desire to be worshiped by others, and they demand respectability, although they do not command respect. Over trifles they become very angry and speak harshly, not gently. They do not know what should be done and what should not be done. They do everything whimsically, according to their own desire, and they do not recognize any authority. These demoniac qualities are taken on by them from the very beginning of their bodies in the wombs of their mothers, and as they grow they manifest all these inauspicious qualities."

Prabhupada: So your answer is there. They think liberty means whatever he likes. That is a demoniac person(?). Now discuss this.
Devotee (1): There's one... You've quoted Canakya Pandita, and he describes a scholar. A scholar is a man who can see all women as his mother, and all living entities, he treats them equally, and other's property as trash. So today's civilization is mistaking a scholar for a rogue and a rogue for a scholar, and here Krsna is explaining a godly man, the qualities of a scholar and gentleman, whereas today's civilization is upside down, backwards.

Prabhupada: Therefore preaching is required.

Dhrstadyumna: They feel that godly qualities are a sign of weakness. And the demoniac qualities is a good sign.

Prabhupada: Heroism. That is heroism.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes, heroism. In this purport, Srila Prabhupada perfectly describes our student life. As students, we were doing everything whimsically. Or we would accept bad things.

Prabhupada: Therefore Prahlada Maharaja recommends from the beginning of student life, kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha [SB 7.6.1], they should be trained up in Krsna consciousness. That Prahlada Maharaja recommends. Now from the very beginning of student life, because there is no education, he is trained up as demon. What can be done? So many things have to be reformed by pushing on Krsna consciousness. These are Krsna consciousness movement, whatever is described in the Bhagavad-gita that is within the jurisdiction of Krsna consciousness. So we have to do all this. Water.

Dhrstadyumna:

daivi sampad vimoksaya
nibandhayasuri mata
ma sucah sampadam daivim
abhijato 'si pandava

"The transcenspurdental qualities are conducive to liberation, whereas the demonic qualities make for bondage. Do not worry, O son of Pandu, for you are born with the divine qualities." (purport) "Lord Krsna encouraged Arjuna by telling him that he was not born with demoniac qualities. His involvement in the fight was not demoniac, because he was considering the pro's and con's. He was considering whether respectable persons such as Bhisma and Drona should be killed or not, so he was not acting under the influence of anger, false prestige, or harshness. Therefore he was not of the quality of the demons. For a ksatriya, a military man, shooting arrows at the enemy is considered transcendental, and refraining from such a duty is demoniac. Therefore, there was no cause for Arjuna to lament. Anyone who performs the regulated principles of the different orders of life is transcendentally situated."

Prabhupada: Discuss on this point.

Pusta Krsna: They may say that we have arbitrarily given some specific duties to different people.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: They may say that we have arbitrarily given, that the ksatriyas are supposed to kill, like this. But actually everyone should be a good man.

Prabhupada: Not arbitrarily. It is given by Krsna. It is not arbitrary. By the supreme order. How they can say it is arbitrary? Then what is the use of referring to Bhagavad-gita? Things may not be arbitrary, whimsical, therefore we have to take reference from Bhagavad-gita. Lawbook. When a judge gives his judgement, he does not give it arbitrarily. There is lawbooks. So there is no question of arbitrary. The reference is there. How you can say it is arbitrary? That is not a fact. Sastra-vidhi. Rather, if you don't care for sastra-vidhi, then he'll never be successful. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya, in this chapter you'll find.

Dhrstadyumna:

yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karatah
na sa siddhim avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim

"But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination."

Prabhupada: We do not give anything arbitrary.

Dhrstadyumna: Actually this is a fact, because we see that by following their authorities, they are becoming more and more unhappy, and by following our authorities, we are becoming more and more happy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dhrstadyumna: So the result is there even in this life we can see, what to speak beyond this life.

Pusta Krsna: But they can say everyone is not made happy by a war.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: They can say that, for example, the wives of Duryodhana and all of these people who were killed, they were not made happy.

Dhrstadyumna: No, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre... [Bg. 1.1].

Prabhupada: They were happy. Otherwise they could not fight. They are not Vietnam soldiers, when they are attacked they are going away. They are not like that. They are determined that "I'll either lay down life or gain victory." That is their... They were not afraid of fighting. Do you think they were afraid of fighting? That is real ksatriya. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. That is real ksatriya training.

Pusta Krsna: I mean to say that they may consider that this is a selfish type of happiness, though. Not taking into consideration...

Prabhupada: They may think... They are rascals, they cannot think anything. We haven't got to reply all of them. Because they are rascals. They can talk all nonsense. We haven't got to take care of... Just like a child, he's talking so many foolish things. Sometimes we reply, "Yes, yes, we know." But we don't take seriously anything, anything spoken by a child. So these rascals may go on talking so many things, but we haven't got to take care of all of them. We have to do our own business. Let the dog bark on, the caravan will pass. So not that we have to take care of the barking of the dog always. That is not...

Dhrstadyumna:

dvau bhuta-sargau loke 'smin
daiva asura eva ca
daivo vistarasah prokta
asuram partha me srnu

"O son of Prtha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demoniac. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac." (purport) "Lord Krsna, having assured Arjuna that he was born with the divine qualities, is now describing the demoniac way. The conditioned living entities are divided into two classes in this world. Those who are born with divine qualities follow a regulated life; that is to say they abide by the injunctions in scriptures and by the authorities. One should perform duties in the light of authoritative scripture. This mentality is called divine. One who does not follow the regulative principles as they are laid down in the scriptures and who acts according to his whims is called demoniac, or asuric. There is no other criterion but obedience to the regulative principles of scriptures. It is mentioned in Vedic literature that both the demigods and the demons are born of the Prajapati; the only difference is that one class obeys the Vedic injunctions and the other does not."

pravrttim ca nivrttim ca
jana na vidur asurah
na saucam napi cacaro
na satyam tesu vidyate

"Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done. Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." Purport. "In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Aryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples. Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them. They have no faith, nor are they willing to act in terms of Vedic injunctions. The demons are not clean either externally or internally. One should always be very careful to keep his body clean by bathing, brushing teeth, changing clothes, etc. As far as internal cleanliness is concerned, one should always remember the holy names of God and chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. The demons neither like nor follow all these rules for external and internal cleanliness. As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-samhita, which is the lawbook of the human race. Even up to today those who are Hindu follow the Manu-samhita. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However this has not improved the social condition of the world. Actually a woman should be given protection at every stage of life. She should be given protection by her father in her younger days, by the husband in her youth, and by the grown-up sons in her old age. This is proper social behavior according to the Manu-samhita. But modern education has artificially devised a puffed-up concept of womanly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. Nor is the moral condition of woman very good now. The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable."

asatyam apratistham te
jagad ahur anisvaram
aparaspara-sambhutam
kim anyat kama-haitukam
[Bg. 16.8]

"They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust." Purport. "The demoniac conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory that the world has come about in its own way and that there's no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the supreme spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance. According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying the dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out of the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Krsna in Bhagavad-gita: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. ‘Under My direction the whole material world is moving.' In other words, amongst the demons there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of the world; every one of them has a particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions."

etam drstim avastabhya
nastatmano 'lpa-buddhayah
prabhavanty ugra-karmanah
ksayaya jagato 'hitah

Prabhupada: This is the right description of modern age. Exact. Hmm? What is that? Etam drstim avastabhya.

Dhrstadyumna: Nastatmano.

Prabhupada: Nastatmano, they have lost their soul. Nastatma. There is no information about the soul. Nastatmanah. God and soul is lost: "There is no God, there is no cause of this creation, there was a chunk," like that. Like that. Etam drstim avastabhya. Read it?

Dhrstadyumna:

etam drstim avastabhya
nastatmano 'lpa-buddhayah

Prabhupada: Nastatmanah, they have lost their self. Nastatmano alpa-buddhayah. A rascal, no intelligence. Just like cats and dogs. If these four principles are available, bas, finished. Life is perfect success. Eating, sleeping, mating. Alpa-buddhayah, animal. Then?

Dhrstadyumna: Prabhavanty.

Prabhupada: Prabhavanty.

Dhrstadyumna: Ugra-karmanah.

Prabhupada: Ugra-karmanah, the factory. This is ugra-karma. Pradyumna was describing ugra-karma, hellish. Little karma, just wheat is growing, a little tilling, that is sufficient. What is the use of opening big, big factory? Ugra-karma. What it has helped? You were talking on behalf of them. What it has helped? Keeping them. Innocent men, women, they are kept in that factory simply for livelihood. A little work will provide his needs. Nature has given so much facility. They can grow little food anywhere. The cows are there in the pasturing ground. Take milk and live peacefully. Why you open factories? What is the use? Keeping them in hellish condition of life. So this is the description. Now discuss these points.

Dhrstadyumna: You say, Srila Prabhupada, they engage in unbeneficial horrible works meant to destroy the world and that this refers to the atomic weapons. This is so true.

Prabhupada: Yes, God's speaking, Krsna is speaking.

Dhrstadyumna: I was studying this nuclear energy in college, thinking that it would save the world. That by the energy they could make bigger tomatoes, bigger corn, and...

Prabhupada: Bigger deaths. Conclusion is bigger deaths. Everything big. One man was dying, now many hundreds of thousands will die. Bigger deaths. You did not consider it bigger death? Dhrstadyumna: It was very frustrating, though, because for everything they were trying to do good, they found so many more things bad were coming.

Prabhupada: That is... Karma jagat means that if you have to raise this house, then you have to cut the wood somewhere. You have to destroy somewhere, and then you can make house. You have to adjust things like that. You cannot create. This house was constructed, created, by destroying somewhere else. Is it not? So where is your creation? Creation is God's creation. He has created everything, and if you want to create, you have to destroy somewhere. That is karma.

Pusta Krsna: Sometimes these people are called duskrtina. And you've mentioned that the duskrtina, actually he has some intelligence, misused.

Prabhupada: Yes. Intelligence. After destroying the wood, you use your intelligence to construct this house. You have intelligence, there is no doubt. Human being must have intelligence. But that intelligence is given to him for getting out of the clutches of birth, death, old age and disease. He's not utilizing that intelligence for that purpose, therefore duskrtina. Intelligence he has got. We don't say that modern world, they are unintelligent, fools. No, they have got intelligence. But the intelligence is being utilized for duskarya, which he should not have done. Duskarya. Karya and duskarya -- work and bad work. His intelligence was given so that he could get relief from these clutches of birth, death, old age and disease, but that he's not utilizing. He's opening factory and creating another bad atmosphere. Therefore duskrtina. To open a factory requires intelligence. So many machine is working, that's all right, but how this intelligence being used? To keep man in a hellish condition of life. Therefore duskrtina.

Devotee (2): They are also very narrowminded. Just like they open a factory, but they're not thinking of the effects of the factory.
Prabhupada: Because therefore duskrtina, mudha, next word. Because they are mudha, therefore duskrtina.

Pusta Krsna: At the same time it's said that Krsna gives the intelligence, mattah smrtir jnanam.

Prabhupada: You wanted to do, Krsna gives you intelligence. You want to manufacture a very complicated machine, Krsna will give you intelligence, "All right, do like this, manufacture." He'll not hear Krsna, sarva dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is Krsna's intelligence, that "You rascal, give up this all this." But he'll not do it. Want to do it, but Krsna is so kind, "All right, do it, see the effect." Without Krsna's help we cannot do anything.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, you have called the politicians representative of Hiranyakasipu, they are trying to become immortal. Just like devotees, but without...

Prabhupada: Yes, this... There are two kinds of men already described, daiva asura eva ca. These two kinds of activities will go on. This is material world. You cannot find out cent percent perfect man. That is not possible. There are a class of men, imperfect, will be there. But it is being described who is imperfect and who is perfect. That you have to select. You cannot clear this material world of imperfect persons. That is not possible. There will be remain, but you must know who is perfect and who is imperfect. And make your choice, whether you want to remain imperfect or want to make progress to become perfect. That is up to you.

Pusta Krsna: It seems almost like a contradiction in one sense, that prabhavanti, that they flourish and at the same time, ksayaya.

Prabhupada: Prabhavanty, materially, materially. Just like when you go to a modern city and say, "Oh, how developed," prabhavanty. But what kind of prabhavanty? That is next word, jagato 'hitah, to destroy this world. So their prabhavanty in the opposite direction. That is not prabhavanty actually. Prabhavanty in the material sense, but what is the purpose, what is the end? Jagato 'hitah. There are two kinds of progress, to hell, to heaven.

Hari-sauri: Fifty years ago they were thinking it was progress to build big skyscrapers; now it's so hellish in the cities, everybody is moving out.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Actually, when there are so many skyscraper buildings, it is hell. The natural air is obstructed. In Bombay you'll see. If you are in the top floor you have got little facility; in the lower floor it is hell. If there are several skyscraper building, in the first floor, second floor, it is simply hell. No air. Simply you have to run on this electric fan. You cannot see the sky. Therefore it is meant skyscraper? What is scraper? What is the meaning?

Hari-sauri: It touches, touching the sky.

Prabhupada: So you have touched the sky in such a way I cannot see even. (laughs) This is the result. You demon, you have captured the sky, so I have no opportunity to see even. Always electric light. Now we see the sky, the sun, how nice it is. This is life. Green, down and up, clear sky, sun, this is life. We get rejuvenation in this atmosphere. What is this nonsense, all skyscraper building, no air, no light? Jagato 'hitah. The mind becomes crippled, the health becomes deteriorated, children cannot see even the sky, everything is spoiled.

Kuladri: Every day in the city they make a report, pollution report. And they say you should go outside or not go outside. Some days it is not good for your health to leave your home.

Devotee (1): They are also selling fresh air, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Fresh air? (laughter) Fresh water, also.

Hari-sauri: In Tokyo there are special machines you can get air, clean water.

Prabhupada: Fresh, by cleaning the urine? Now they are doing that. Fresh water by cleaning urine. Fat derived from stool. Yes, German people did it. Fat extracted from stool. Scientifically. You can use it with butter very nicely on your bread. This is going on.

Pusta Krsna: Some of the materialists may argue that these activities are not all that unbeneficial. For example, they have made a tractor, and in America they can produce so many grains, so much so that practically they could feed the world.

Prabhupada: Why do they not?

Pusta Krsna: Because their mentality is very abominable.

Prabhupada: Do that. There are so many overpopulation, and you can do it in America. So much land lying vacant here.

Dhrstadyumna: Better to put the people in factories in the fields. If they are going to work, let them work growing grain and milking the cows.

Prabhupada: Yes, then they will live very happily. That will not do. Jagato 'hitah. Read it.

Dhrstadyumna: Ksayaya jagato 'hitah

Prabhupada: Ksayaya, ksayaya means all for ruination, bringing ruin, ruination. So save them from ruination. Actually I've seen in New York, some quarter so nasty. In London also, so nasty. Disaster. So many storefront, lying vacant houses. I was, when I had no business, I was loitering to see the city. Hellish condition. They said it was risky, but I did not know that it was risky. One electrician, he was my friend, "Oh, Swamiji, you are going in those quarters? It is not for you, don't." "Oh, I do not care. What I have got they will take from me?" So I was loitering in New York City. So many nasty quarters. London also. So many houses vacant.

Kuladri: There is more chance of being killed in New York City than in the jungle.

Prabhupada: Yes. They warned me not to go to the Central Park in the evening. They say at night nobody goes there.

Pusta Krsna: Except the thieves and killers.

Prabhupada: Just see. Such an important city, and such important park, and nobody can go.

Pusta Krsna: Is there any stage at which these atheistic people have done anything good by accident?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: Is there any step?

Prabhupada: Therefore they support this accident theory. Nowadays they have got the accident theory. Because ordinarily there is no good. There is no possibility. But by accident if some good comes, that's all. Otherwise, jagato 'hitah, it is only fault. They are... But accidentally means good comes. Accidentally, Krsna consciousness movement came. (laughs) Although it was going on in India. Nobody called Krsna consciousness, the scientists, the philosophers, the politicians. But accidentally came. Accidentally, we got result. You cannot explain God, therefore you take it as accident.

Pusta Krsna: This is very interesting, very interesting. In a Vedic community everything is very ordered, and goodness prevails, therefore God consciousness seems very natural.

Prabhupada: Go on.

Dhrstadyumna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." (purport) "The demoniac are engaged in activities that will lead the world to destruction. The Lord states here that they are less intelligent. The materialists, who have no concept of God, think that they are advancing. But, according to Bhagavad-gita, they are unintelligent and devoid of all sense. They try to enjoy this material world to the utmost limit and therefore always engage in inventing something for sense gratification. Such materialistic inventions are considered to be the advancement of human civilization, but the result is that people grow more and more violent and more and more cruel -- cruel to animals and cruel to other human beings. They have no idea how to behave toward one another. Animal killing is very prominent amongst demoniac people. Such people are considered the enemies of the world because ultimately they will invent or create something which will bring destruction to all. Indirectly, this verse anticipates the invention of nuclear weapons, of which the whole world is today very proud. At any moment war may take place, and these atomic weapons may create havoc. Such things are created solely for the destruction of the world, and this is indicated here. Due to godlessness, such weapons are invented in human society; they are not meant for the peace and prosperity of the world."
Prabhupada: Now, discuss.

Dhrstadyumna: Actually, in this century there has not been ten years of peace. Always there is some war been going on, and now...

Prabhupada: Cold war and hot war, they say. When there is fire that is hot war, and there is diplomacy and politics, that is cold war. So war is going on. Sometimes it is hot, sometimes it is cold. There is no peace.

Pusta Krsna: We even see that among the so-called God conscious communities in the world, still there are such horrible activities going on, fighting.

Prabhupada: No, no, we don't say that fighting will stop. We are distinguishing demons and rogues, uh, demigods. If you fight, demon, I must defend myself. What can I do? If you start war, you are demon, shall I stop: "No, no, I am demigod, I'll not fight. You kill me"? Is that intelligent? I'll have to fight. But the war starts by the implication of the demons. The Kuruksetra war, it was not started by Arjuna. It was started by Duryodhana. (long pause) All right, go on.

Dhrstadyumna:

kamam asritya duspuram
dambha-mana-madanvitah
mohad grhitvasad-grahan
pravartante 'suci-vratah

"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent." Purport. "The demoniac mentality is described here. The demons' lust is never satiated. They will go on increasing and increasing their insatiable desires for material enjoyment. Although they are always full of anxieties on account of accepting nonpermanent things, they still continue to engage in such activities out of illusion. They have no knowledge and cannot tell that they are heading the wrong way. Accepting nonpermanent things, such demoniac people create their own God, create their own hymns, and chant accordingly. The result is that they become more and more attracted to two things -- sex enjoyment and accumulation of material wealth. The word asuci-vratah, ‘unclean vow,' is very significant in this connection. Such demoniac people are only attracted by wine, women, gambling and meat-eating; those are their asuci, unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they create some principles of religion which are not approved by the Vedic injunctions. Although such demoniac people are most abominable in the world, still, by artificial means, the world creates a false honor for them. Although they are gliding toward hell, they consider themselves very much advanced."

Prabhupada: There are so many religious systems: "Yes, you can do whatever you like, you can eat whatever you like," and still it is religion. This is demoniac. That will be explained further. Huh? Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca na vidur asurah jana. No, not in the beginning.

Dhrstadyumna: Number twenty-three?

Pradyumna: We just did that one. Text seven.

Dhrstadyumna: Pravrttim ca nivrttim ca...

Prabhupada: You have not recited this verse already? Oh, yes. Pravrttim ca nivrttim, this is the... They do not know what to do, what to not do. Because they do not take any standard idea. They manufacture their own ideas.

Kuladri: In the Catholic Church, they used to have the doctrine, "No eating meat on Friday." Used to be standard, no meat-eating on Friday; they would only eat fish. Now within our lifetime they have changed it.

Dhrstadyumna: They have changed so many things. When I was a young boy they..., you had to be in church on Sunday morning very early, otherwise it was noticed. Now you don't have to be till later on. There is no more austerity in religion.

Pusta Krsna: But if their standard is demoniac to begin with...

Prabhupada: Therefore they are selling churches. Nobody is attracted. In London city there are so many churches closed. Nobody goes.

Devotee (1): In Cleveland, also, Prabhupada, there are so many churches, only five, ten, fifteen people attend, and they are all elderly, elderly ladies.

Hari-sauri: Due to the Pope's taking a firm stand over the not allowing abortion and contraception, like this, they said that the number of practicing Catholics was reduced from seventy-five percent to fifty percent, just simply because of that one principle that he'd stuck to. So twenty-five percent immediately left.

Prabhupada: Where they have gone? (laughter)

Hari-sauri: Well, they gave up going to church at least.

Dhrstadyumna: Hopeless life.

Prabhupada: No, why hopeless? There is hope -- Krsna consciousness.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes.

Hari-sauri: Hopeless for them.

Pusta Krsna: This very much describes modern civilization also. They are such asuci-vratah, they are given much respect in modern-day society. And the devotees, sometimes we go preaching and put into jail.

Prabhupada: It is very fortunate they are not crucifying you. Putting into jail, but they crucified Lord Jesus Christ, they were so intelligent. Because he was preaching God consciousness, he was crucified. What was his fault? He was talking of God, therefore he was crucified.

Dhrstadyumna: Now they only take our sankirtana collection.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Dhrstadyumna: Now they are just taking our collection. Today two of my boys, they were arrested just north of here. So as a fine they have taken their sankirtana collection.

Prabhupada: Robbing. In the name of law, robbing.

Dhrstadyumna: Right, the court has taken it.

Devotee (1): Did this happen in court or the police...?

Dhrtadyumna: In court.

Prabhupada: And then they let go?

Dhrstadyumna: They were let go.

Hari-sauri: They just want some revenue.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are robbing, government, dasyu dharmabhih. It is stated, government will be like rogues. As the rogues and thieves, they take away from you by force, the government will do that. In the court, by income tax, so many people are being harassed.

Dhrstadyumna: There is a large organization called Mafia in this country.

Prabhupada: Mafia?

Dhrstadyumna: Mafia, organized criminals, organized like businessmen. They are controlling the politicians by money. But although they are exposing, still it goes on. It is worse than ever.

Prabhupada: What is that? Explain further.

Hari-sauri: The Mafia is an organization that was originally coming from Sicily. They were an organized group of men that would control all the politics in the area by manipulation of money and businessmen.

Devotee (1): And violence.

Hari-sauri: And violence. So many things they'd do. They used to organize all the heroin that comes into the country, like this, for revenue, to get revenue, money. So many things. And places like Las Vegas, which is a big gambling city, that is also run by the Mafia. They control all the casinos and they control the police, they pay everyone off, like that, and if they don't agree, they kill them. So like this, their influence is spread everywhere, any illegal things that are going on.

Prabhupada: Terrorism.

Dhrstadyumna: Our last President, two Presidents ago, Kennedy, he was involved with one of their prostitutes. She was getting information, and he was not investigating them because he was involved with one of their prostitutes.

Prabhupada: They keep prostitutes also?

Dhrstadyumna: Oh, yes, they use them. Actually, they are controlling many of these judges, and then we are coming in, and we are preaching the other thing, no prostitution, no drinking, and then we are getting fines.

Pusta Krsna: If the natural tendency of the living entity is to want to exist, to live, then why is it they perform so many horrible acts that will destroy themselves?

Prabhupada: They are thinking that they will exist in that way.

Pusta Krsna: Is it that they see everyone as their enemy, and therefore everything has to be around them?

Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist, struggle for existence, but they do not know how to exist. That is foolishness. Everyone wants to exist because actually he is eternal. He doesn't like to be destroyed. That is his natural inclination. But he does not know. We are giving the formula that if you want to exist, then you come to Krsna consciousness. We are giving the right information. But they want to exist in their wrong way of existing. That is not possible.

Devotee (4): Why is it that the demon, he feels happy if someone else is distressed.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (4): Why does the demoniac mentality, that they feel happy if they see someone else in distress?

Prabhupada: Therefore they are demons. That is demonic mentality. They are happy when others are unhappy. And when others are happy, they are unhappy. That is demon.

Devotee (5): They are thinking "I am not so happy, but these others, they are suffering more, so therefore I am okay."

Prabhupada: No. This is general demonic feeling. If you are unhappy, then I am happy. And if you are happy, then I am unhappy.

Kuladri: The devotee is described as para-duhkha-duhkhi. He's only distressed in seeing the distress of others.

Prabhupada: Yes. Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song is there, para-duhkhe sukhi. That is natural. Go on.

Dhrstadyumna:

cintam aparimeyam ca
pralayantam upasritah
kamopabhoga-parama
etavad iti niscitah

asa-pasa-satair baddhah
kama-krodha-parayanah
ihante kama-bhogartham
anyayenartha-sancayan

"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."

Prabhupada: Illegal.

Pusta Krsna: Illegal means.

Dhrstadyumna: Purport. "The demoniac accept that the enjoyment of the senses is the ultimate goal of life, and this concept they maintain until death. They do not believe in life after death, and they do not believe that one takes on different types of bodies according to one's karma, or activities in this world. Their plans for life are never finished, and they go on preparing plan after plan, all of which are never finished. We have personal experience of a person of such demoniac mentality, who, even at the point of death, was requesting the physician to prolong his life for four years more because his plans were not yet complete. Such foolish people do not know that a physician cannot prolong life even for a moment. When the notice is there, there is no consideration of the man's desire. The laws of nature do not allow a second beyond what one is destined to enjoy. The demoniac person, who has no faith in God or the Supersoul within himself, performs all kinds of sinful activities simply for sense gratification. He does not know that there is a witness sitting within his heart. The Supersoul is observing the activities of the individual soul. As it is stated in the Vedic literature, the Upanisads, there are two birds sitting in one tree; the one is acting and enjoying or suffering the fruits of the branches, and the other is witnessing. But one who is demoniac has no knowledge of Vedic scripture, nor has he any faith; therefore he feels free to do anything for sense enjoyment, regardless of the consequences."

Prabhupada: Now discuss any points.

Kuladri: One of the richest men in the United States, Howard Hughes, he just recently died, and he had sores all over his body. With all of his money, he died in a very miserable condition. He had so many millions and millions of dollars.

Dhrstadyumna: He said at the time of death, "I think I've made a mistake."

Prabhupada: What he was?

Dhrstadyumna: He was one of the richest men in the world, Srila Prabhupada. He was owning all the..., like aircraft, they are making, the jet airplanes, and he was a movie star in his youth, and he had many beautiful women, fabulous wealth, he owned hotels all over the world, airplanes, airports, but...

Pusta Krsna: At the end of his life he didn't even mix with women so much though. He became very despondent and depressed. He was like a hermit.

Dhrstadyumna: He was afraid of germs.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Pusta Krsna: He became like a hermit. He withdrew into himself. No one knew very much about him; he was very mysterious so far as his life with the public was concerned. But towards the end of his life he didn't live a very elaborate life of sense gratification at all. No one knew much about him at all.

Hari-sauri: This description is perfect, actually, because most of his fortunes they calculate he amassed by many illegal methods, like paying off police and fixing so many things up. With his money, he was always able to buy government officials and like this and get so many contracts to further the development of his aircraft companies and this and that.

Prabhupada: He has manufactured airplanes?

Hari-sauri: Yes, he had something to do with airplanes. And also he had a lot of land in Las Vegas, this gambling city. So many... He was involved in many mysterious maneuvers. It's open in the newspapers, they said that he got most of his money from illegal methods.

Dhrstadyumna: In his old age he was very afraid of germs. He didn't want to catch any disease. So he would wear..., he would live in perfectly sealed rooms with all artificial air and light, so no germs could exist, and he would wear these...

Prabhupada: He did not know that he's creating germs within his body.

Dhrstadyumna: He could not avoid death.

Prabhupada: If there was no germs, how he died? So at last he said?

Dhrstadyumna: He said something to the effect that "I don't know what this life was about. I think I've made a mistake." Just at the end.

Prabhupada: Yes, it was mistake.

Dhrstadyumna: Everyone is envious of such persons, Srila Prabhupada. They think that "Yes, he could not enjoy his wealth, but if I had that wealth I would enjoy it." But then if they get it, then they also fail.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Next, what is next?

Hari-sauri: Half past eight.

Pusta Krsna: Should we take your leave now, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, I have no objection to sit down here. If you want to stop, we can stop, chant Hare Krsna. [break]

Dhrstadyumna:

idam adya maya labdham
imam prapsye manoratham
idam astidam api me
bhavisyati punar dhanam

asau maya hatah satrur
hanisye caparan api
isvaro 'ham aham bhogi
siddho 'ham balavan sukhi

adhyo 'bhijanavan asmi
ko 'nyo 'sti sadrso maya
yaksye dasyami modisya
ity ajnana-vimohitah

"The demoniac person thinks: ‘So much wealth do I have today, and I will gain more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy, and I have killed him, and my other enemies will also be killed. I am the lord of everything. I am the enjoyer. I am perfect, powerful and happy. I am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such persons are deluded by ignorance." These are timeless statements Srila Prabhupada. Krsna has spoken for all time by these words.

aneka-citta-vibhranta
moha-jala-samavrtah
prasaktah kama-bhogesu
patanti narake 'sucau

Prabhupada: Our Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, the formula is therefore: as soon as you get money, fifty percent spent for printing and fifty percent for temple. This is the basic principle of our Bhaktivedanta (Book Trust) -- no saving. As soon as you have got some money, print books, print books. Don't keep it. If you print books, some day somebody will read. But if we keep money, it creates disturbance. I am therefore always insisting, "Print books, Print books." Or construct temple, this building, that building. There is no need of keeping money.

Dhrstadyumna: You said your Guru Maharaja used to keep the temples in debt all the time.

Prabhupada: Mm. (pause) So you don't require covering? This girl? This cloth is sufficient? What you think? Why you have no covering? Mm? You do not require cloth?

Kuladri: It is warm for us Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: No, if they require, there must be supply. You must ask them what they need and provide them because they do not say you'll also keep silent. That's not good. Every month they must be asked what they need. Necessities, they must be supplied. We have already discussed this point, the women, they require protection, children, women. All right, you can...

Devotees: Jaya.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Garden Discussion on Bhagavad-gita Sixteenth Chapter -- June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban