Mayapura, April 3, 1975
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Pusta Krsna: They think that we are
limiting God by saying that He's a person, or that He has form.Prabhupada:
That is their foolishness. That is their foolishness. They are thinking God a
person like me, like himself. That is foolishness. They cannot conceive that a
person can become so powerful than myself. That is the defect. A person has
acintya-sakti, acintya-sakti, inconceivable power. Now, just like you are
person. You cut your hair. It is growing. Do you know how it is
growing?
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Even it is beyond your conception, what to speak of others. But it is growing. It is... If there is any scar or if the nail is broken some way or other, it will come out. But... You cannot manufacture it by conceiving. But it is coming out. That means within you there is an inconceivable power. So if you have got, an ordinary human being, so much inconceivable power, how much God has got inconceivable power. That is God.
Hamsaduta: In Los Angeles, you called it mystic power, that every living creature has some mystic power.
Prabhupada: Yes. Every living creature.
Trivikrama: You gave the example of a lemon tree.
Prabhupada: Yes. The mystic power producing tons of citric acid.
Trivikrama: Citric acid.
Prabhupada: Yes, lemon juice. Acintya-sakti, inconceivable power. The cow, eating grass, producing milk -- this is inconceivable power. Can you produce milk from the grass? But how the cow is producing? Hmm? Answer this. You eat grass and produce milk. Give your wife grass and let her produce milk. [break] Your question is answered? Eh?
Satsvarupa: Well, it's answered, but they would say that our saying that... You said... I said, "Where did God come from?" You say that is the definition of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: But then they can say...
Prabhupada: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search... You... Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person -- he does not come from any father; he is self-sufficient -- then He's God. That is the definition of... If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the difference.
Satsvarupa: But they say that's not logically proved.
Prabhupada: That is logical... Means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarat.
Satsvarupa: Independent.
Prabhupada: Yes. Janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "This Absolute Truth is that from which, who is the origin of everything, but He's svarat." This is the first line of Bhagavata. Janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat [SB 1.1.1].
Satsvarupa: They don't like it because God doesn't come under their jurisdiction, then.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: They want... They want God to be under their jurisdiction. So...
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. You shall be under the jurisdiction of God. God is not under your jurisdiction. Then how He is God?
Ramesvara: They can't understand how it is that matter... They accept that matter always existed. They can't understand our point...
Prabhupada: Matter existed...?
Ramesvara: Always. That in the beg..., that eternally there is gas in the atmosphere, in the universe.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the gas came?
Ramesvara: Well, they say... They believe that it always existed.
Prabhupada: Always existing.
Ramesvara: Yes, that's their idea.
Satsvarupa: Just like we say God is svarat, they say that the matter is svarat.
Prabhupada: Yes, in... Not svarat. We never find a gas is svarat, matter is svarat. They... Just this body. Has this body come out itself? Because the soul is there, the body has developed. Therefore the cause of this body is the soul. The body is not independent. And the soul goes away. Then body's no more independent. It cannot move. It becomes just like dust. "Dust thou art; dust thou be-est." [break] ...like this body is moving now, but it is not independent. It is dependent on the soul. The soul goes away; it does not move. So how it is independent? And everyone knows that because the soul takes shelter within the womb of the mother, the body develops. If the child comes out dead, it does not develop. Therefore matter is dependent on the soul, living being.
Ramesvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving.
Prabhupada: Where is moving? This is moving?
Ramesvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?
Visnujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Visnujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Prabhupada: Then you become blind. Then you can see.
Devotee: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move.
Ramesvara: 'Cause they say that within the, within the earth...
Prabhupada: That is within. You have got very good sight within. But I am a layman. I want to see that it is moving. (laughter) You have got some imaginary eyes. You can see.
Madhudvisa: They say that's advancement.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Madhudvisa: Advancement of science.
Prabhupada: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is... Who will say it is moving unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone... The whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why, where it is moving?
Ramesvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving.
Prabhupada: And therefore it is moving.
Ramesvara: Within, the atoms, there is movement.
Prabhupada: Then here, today, this morning, you'll see it is lying there. Tomorrow you'll come. You'll see it is lying there. Where it is moving? What does it mean by moving?
Ramesvara: Well, they say that when atoms...
Prabhupada: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They... Why? Are they authority?
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What is the use of "They say"? You say. When you'll say "They say," I'll say "They say," (laughter) my authorities. My authorities. If you defy my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Then come to plain logic.
Madhudvisa: Well, you look at the earth, and you see it. It is stationary.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Madhudvisa: Just like we look at the building over there. From a distance, it is stationary. But if we go inside, we can see there is so much movement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: So similarly, you may walk by this earth every day and see it is stationary, but if you analyze it underneath a microscope, you will see that there is so much movement going on within.
Prabhupada: But that is due to air. That is due to air. Just like we can see so many atoms are moving in the hole from the wall, but that is due to air. So this is also moving. The whole thing is moving by air.
Visnujana: But not of itself.
Prabhupada: Not automatically.
Visnujana: Not of itself.
Prabhupada: Not automatically. You cannot say automatically. No, air is moving. Just like the, in the air, the cloud is moving. The cloud is not moving. The air, moving, and the cloud moving.
Trivikrama: Anyway, the basic proposition is that they, they don't have, they don't want to accept God, so they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Trivikrama: So that they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupada: Certainly. And they are being accountable. If they become so dull-headed, then God's power will make him a tree: "Stand here. Stand up here for three thousand years. That's all. You are so dull-headed that you have no sense, so become a tree so that even if you are cut, you cannot protest. You have no sense, senses." That is the punishment. "If you don't eat prasadam, then eat stool." This is the arrangement. So they are being punished. But they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.
Pusta Krsna: With their science, they've been able to build so many buildings and roads and bridges and so many things which they consider wonderful.
Prabhupada: And what you'll do with the buildings? You'll be kicked out. Your building will remain there. Your spoiling labor will remain there, but you will be kicked out. You cannot live there. Who is managing these affairs? "So you have constructed a building? All right, I kick you out. Get out!" Then what is the purpose of building? If you know that "I am constructing this high building, and tomorrow somebody will kick me out," then what is the use? Have you made it insured that you'll not be kicked out?
Visnujana: No.
Prabhupada: Then it is useless waste of time.
Madhudvisa: You can enjoy it while you are here, though.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That is called foolishness, that "I am going to be kicked out tomorrow, and let me enjoy tonight." That's all. That is foolishness.
Madhudvisa: This is their only recourse 'cause they don't believe in anything after this life.
Prabhupada: Yes. They... That... "Don't believe" means, don't take knowledge means, foolishness. Yes. Just like you are walking. You don't believe that you are going to the temple, but simply walking. Is that very intelligent? We are going. We are going to some place. We know that. That is intelligent. And if I ask you, "Why you are walking?" "That I do not know." Is that very intelligent man?
Satsvarupa: Like animal.
Prabhupada: Animal, that's all. Animal also knows that "I'll have to go there." Without any aim, without any purpose, if they are working, they are fool number one, mudhah.
Pusta Krsna: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Krsna. Annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Krsna. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Krsna does not say that "Take to industry." Krsna says, "Produce foodstuff." Annad bhavanti bhutani. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.
Ramesvara: They're too busy making money to grow their own food.
Prabhupada: "So then pay more money. Come on. You have earned money and give me. I shall give you food. And whatever I shall ask, you have to pay." This simple thing, more demand-price is more. Then why do you gripe, "Oh, everything is price growing, price growing." Why it will not? If I have got food, and you have to purchase, and I have got so many customers, I must increase. That is economic theory: more demand -- the price is increased. And then you say, "There are so many problems. We have to solve first." But you have created this problem, rascal. And you shall must suffer. You have infected some disease. Now you must suffer. It is like say, karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The reason is that you have infected some quality of the modes of nature and you must suffer for that. How you can deny it? If you have infected some disease like cholera, smallpox, and when you are suffering, how you can blaim? You have infected. You must suffer. Nature's law is so strict that as soon as you infect a particular type of quality of nature -- there are so many -- you must suffer for that, or so-called enjoy. There are two things, suffer and enjoy. So you must have to undergo the process. This is... Nature's process is so nice. As soon as you do something, there is reaction and you are bound up. Yajnarthe karma anyatra loko 'yam karma bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Bandhanah means bound up. Immediately you become bound up. And still, you are thinking, "Independent." The nature's law is so strict.
Pusta Krsna: But the argument is that "The cities are there, and now what can we do?"
Prabhupada: Hm ?
Pusta Krsna: The cities are already there. There are millions of people in the cities...
Prabhupada: Therefore we are offering this place. Come here. Why do you not come here and live with us? Then this is... The Krsna consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Krsna. This is our movement. Therefore we are creating New Vrindaban and farm, and we are trying to purchase... This is our movement, that we give you sufficient food, shelter, health, philosophy, religion, character, everything, purity. Come here. Why don't you come? They come here on the weekdays, and then fly away, go away. You see? We are giving such nice room, but they will not live here. They will go to the hubble-bubble of the city. They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket-coming back to hell again, not going back to God.
Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, you said there was a man who read your Easy Journey, and he was very enthusiastic that he could go to other planets.
Prabhupada: But you must come back. He said, "Oh, I am not coming back again?" "No." "No, no, then I don't want." Yes, that is the psychology. The Russians, when some aeronaut was flying high in the sky, he was seeing: "Where is my Moscow?" Yes, it was published. That is maya. The... Another incidence happenned that when the jet was in danger, he was thinking of "How to come back home?" This is maya. Cannot go. Even though you like to go, still, it will attract you again, back to hell. Otherwise, how people are living in -- what is called? That place where is ice?
Hamsaduta: Alaska.
Brahmananda: Greenland.
Jagadisa: North Pole?
Prabhupada: What is the name of those people?
Devotees: Eskimos.
Prabhupada: Eskimos. Is that very good living? Just see. They won't come here. This is maya. This is maya. Avaranatmika-sakti. They, he's living in hell but maya is covering: "No, it is not hell; it is heaven." This is maya. Similarly all of us, we are living in this universe, material universe. We are thinking "This is all good. What is the use of God and going back to home, back to Godhead?" They do not take it very seriously. Although we give all information that "You'll haven't, you haven't got to work there. You'll get everything. Your life is eternal and blissful, and full of knowledge," they are not interested. Plugged.
Pusta Krsna: Plugged.
Prabhupada: Yes. Plugged ear, er, ears, yes. "You go on speaking, but I have plugged my ear." (laughter)
Trivikrama: "Chant, chant, chant."
Prabhupada: Yes. "Can't, can't, can't." That's it. (laughter) This is going on. The best intelligence is that "We are hearing so much about the spiritual world; there is so much happiness. Why not try one life? Like cats and dogs, I have tried so many lives. Why not sacrifice one life? Where is the loss there?" But no, they are so many, fallen, they'll not accept.
Satsvarupa: One man wrote a book about our movement, Hare Krsna, and he said one tragedy of this movement is that if a young boy or girl takes to this movement and later decides to try the material world again, he will have ruined his chances for a career, (laughter) and it'll be too late for him.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Trivikrama: That's a fact.
Pusta Krsna: Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti... [Bg. 2.40].
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3], "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Krsna." maya is so strong. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhagyavan jiva... Guru-krsna krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Krsna, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Krsna demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharman parityaja mam... That is the way. He commands.
Devotee: Actually, you were asking if there were any examples of explosions happenning without material cause, and I was just wondering if you could explain how volcanoes explode.
Prabhupada: Hm? That is God's desire, nature's way. Nature is behind this, and behind nature...
Devotee: Through the demigods?
Prabhupada: No. Nature, the material nature, and... Just like in... Sometimes at night you have got, what is called, pollution, night pollution?
Trivikrama: Yes.
Prabhupada: So why it is happenning? Why it is happenning? Why this eruption comes? Can you explain?
Devotee: I don't know what night pollution is.
Trivikrama: Passing semina in sleep.
Devotee: Oh.
Prabhupada: Why it does happen? What is your explanation? Nobody can explain?
Ramesvara: Desire in the heart, subtle desire.
Pusta Krsna: It is nature, just...
Prabhupada: No, no, nature... The body is made of material nature, and the eruption is coming. Why it is coming? Does it come in the dead body?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What is the cause?
Paramahamsa: The soul, living entity.
Prabhupada: Because the soul is there. Similarly, the Supersoul is there, and He's arranging everything. The volcano's eruption does not take automatically. When it is desired by Krsna, then it takes place. Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gita. "Under My superintendence." When He knows that "Now this eruption is required," immediately there is... Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got so many potencies. One potency works. That's all. Because the living soul is there, therefore the seminal discharge takes place. Similarly, because the supreme living is there, therefore all these things are happenning. Where is the difficulty to understand? Krsna says, vistabhyaham idam krtsnam ekamsena sthito jagat: [Bg. 10.42] "The whole worldly affair is going on because I am there." Vistabhya: "I have entered into it." Don't you read in the Bhagavad-gita? Then? And we are reading that portion, how Karanavasayi Visnu enters in the each universe. He's... Then He expands Himself as Ksirodakasayi Visnu. We are explaining that. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, vistabhya. Vistabhya means entering.
Brahmananda: You have written that Maha-Visnu has some attraction to the material world?
Prabhupada: No, He has no attraction. You have got attraction. Therefore He creates. Maha-Visnu knows, or Krsna knows that "These rascals will have attraction for this material... All right, let Me arrange." He has no attraction. Why He'll have attraction?
Brahmananda: So one of the devotees said they read that in one of the books.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: There is one purport that says that Krsna is different than Visnu because He's not, He has nothing to do with the material world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: But Maha-Visnu, He has some attraction, or...?
Prabhupada: No attraction. He is duty... He is, what is called, duty-bound, assigned by Krsna, or He's not ordered. Krsna expands in Maha-Visnu and takes charge of this affair.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Ramesvara: Before I was asking about the scientific theory that the atoms are always moving, and you said that the earth is not moving now.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Ramesvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're...
Prabhupada: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Krsna. Nothing is moving without Krsna's indication. That is the explanation,
Mayadhyaksena: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My superintendence..." When Krsna desires, this big, big chunk will move in the air. Recently, Madhudvisa Maharaja said, the buses were flying in the sky.
Brahmananda: Buses?
Prabhupada: Yes. In Darwin.
Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone...
Prabhupada: Yes. And whole city smashed.
Ramesvara: They don't know how to search beyond the microscopic level, microscope level. They think that the atoms have their own energy. They don't know the process of searching...
Prabhupada: The energy is: Krsna is there. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Ramesvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules...
Prabhupada: That means that is Krsna's intelligence. They do not see Krsna. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals.
Pusta Krsna: These scientists need gurus.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Pusta Krsna: The scientists need guru.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: They never even think of these things.
Prabhupada: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check?
Ramesvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven...
Prabhupada: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya. (Bengali)
Indian: (Bengali)
Nalini-kanta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then avoid all problems.
Nalini-kanta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...?
Prabhupada: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything.
Nalini-kanta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Nalini-kanta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Krsna." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, sudras. When a sudra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Krsna consciousness.
Nalini-kanta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)
Hamsaduta: No.
Prabhupada: Then? Even it is beyond your conception, what to speak of others. But it is growing. It is... If there is any scar or if the nail is broken some way or other, it will come out. But... You cannot manufacture it by conceiving. But it is coming out. That means within you there is an inconceivable power. So if you have got, an ordinary human being, so much inconceivable power, how much God has got inconceivable power. That is God.
Hamsaduta: In Los Angeles, you called it mystic power, that every living creature has some mystic power.
Prabhupada: Yes. Every living creature.
Trivikrama: You gave the example of a lemon tree.
Prabhupada: Yes. The mystic power producing tons of citric acid.
Trivikrama: Citric acid.
Prabhupada: Yes, lemon juice. Acintya-sakti, inconceivable power. The cow, eating grass, producing milk -- this is inconceivable power. Can you produce milk from the grass? But how the cow is producing? Hmm? Answer this. You eat grass and produce milk. Give your wife grass and let her produce milk. [break] Your question is answered? Eh?
Satsvarupa: Well, it's answered, but they would say that our saying that... You said... I said, "Where did God come from?" You say that is the definition of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Satsvarupa: But then they can say...
Prabhupada: Everything comes from God, but He's self-sufficient. That is God. That is the searching out God, that you search... You... Wherefrom you came? From your father. Then your father comes from his father, from his father. Go on, go on. When you reach one person -- he does not come from any father; he is self-sufficient -- then He's God. That is the definition of... If God also comes like you, from a father, then how He is God? He's like you. That is the difference.
Satsvarupa: But they say that's not logically proved.
Prabhupada: That is logical... Means you have no brain to understand. That's all. That is the distinction between God and ourself. We are caused, but He is cause of all causes. That is God. Otherwise, how you'll distinguish between you and God? You are caused, but He is not caused. He's causeless. If He becomes caused, then He becomes like you. Then how He becomes God? That is the distinction between God and ourself. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the beginning it is said, svarat.
Satsvarupa: Independent.
Prabhupada: Yes. Janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "This Absolute Truth is that from which, who is the origin of everything, but He's svarat." This is the first line of Bhagavata. Janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat [SB 1.1.1].
Satsvarupa: They don't like it because God doesn't come under their jurisdiction, then.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: They want... They want God to be under their jurisdiction. So...
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. You shall be under the jurisdiction of God. God is not under your jurisdiction. Then how He is God?
Ramesvara: They can't understand how it is that matter... They accept that matter always existed. They can't understand our point...
Prabhupada: Matter existed...?
Ramesvara: Always. That in the beg..., that eternally there is gas in the atmosphere, in the universe.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the gas came?
Ramesvara: Well, they say... They believe that it always existed.
Prabhupada: Always existing.
Ramesvara: Yes, that's their idea.
Satsvarupa: Just like we say God is svarat, they say that the matter is svarat.
Prabhupada: Yes, in... Not svarat. We never find a gas is svarat, matter is svarat. They... Just this body. Has this body come out itself? Because the soul is there, the body has developed. Therefore the cause of this body is the soul. The body is not independent. And the soul goes away. Then body's no more independent. It cannot move. It becomes just like dust. "Dust thou art; dust thou be-est." [break] ...like this body is moving now, but it is not independent. It is dependent on the soul. The soul goes away; it does not move. So how it is independent? And everyone knows that because the soul takes shelter within the womb of the mother, the body develops. If the child comes out dead, it does not develop. Therefore matter is dependent on the soul, living being.
Ramesvara: Their argument is that matter is always in motion, that it is always moving.
Prabhupada: Where is moving? This is moving?
Ramesvara: Well they say the atoms, the molecules, are always in motion.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all prove that this is moving. Then all, say all this nonsense. First of all, why it is not moving? This, this piece of earth, why it is not moving?
Visnujana: They say it's moving very slowly. You can't see it moving.
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Visnujana: It's moving so slow, you can't see it.
Prabhupada: Then you become blind. Then you can see.
Devotee: But they'll say the whole world is moving, the whole cosmic manifestation is moving.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is another thing. But then how that is moving, we have to settle. But matter, as itself, does not move.
Ramesvara: 'Cause they say that within the, within the earth...
Prabhupada: That is within. You have got very good sight within. But I am a layman. I want to see that it is moving. (laughter) You have got some imaginary eyes. You can see.
Madhudvisa: They say that's advancement.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Madhudvisa: Advancement of science.
Prabhupada: Yes, to become blind is advancement, certainly. When this is... Who will say it is moving unless he's a fool? Nonsense. (laughter) Moving, that's all right. Everyone... The whole world is moving. That is another thing. But as it is, why, where it is moving?
Ramesvara: They're talking about the atomic structure, that the atoms are moving.
Prabhupada: And therefore it is moving.
Ramesvara: Within, the atoms, there is movement.
Prabhupada: Then here, today, this morning, you'll see it is lying there. Tomorrow you'll come. You'll see it is lying there. Where it is moving? What does it mean by moving?
Ramesvara: Well, they say that when atoms...
Prabhupada: They say! You say what it is. Don't say "They say." You use your intelligence. If the foolish man says something, shall I have to accept it? You use your own intelligence. "They say." If they are authority, then we have got authority. If you do not accept my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Come to argument. "They say." Why we will accept "They say"? They... Why? Are they authority?
Ramesvara: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What is the use of "They say"? You say. When you'll say "They say," I'll say "They say," (laughter) my authorities. My authorities. If you defy my authority, why shall I accept your authority? Then come to plain logic.
Madhudvisa: Well, you look at the earth, and you see it. It is stationary.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Madhudvisa: Just like we look at the building over there. From a distance, it is stationary. But if we go inside, we can see there is so much movement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Madhudvisa: So similarly, you may walk by this earth every day and see it is stationary, but if you analyze it underneath a microscope, you will see that there is so much movement going on within.
Prabhupada: But that is due to air. That is due to air. Just like we can see so many atoms are moving in the hole from the wall, but that is due to air. So this is also moving. The whole thing is moving by air.
Visnujana: But not of itself.
Prabhupada: Not automatically.
Visnujana: Not of itself.
Prabhupada: Not automatically. You cannot say automatically. No, air is moving. Just like the, in the air, the cloud is moving. The cloud is not moving. The air, moving, and the cloud moving.
Trivikrama: Anyway, the basic proposition is that they, they don't have, they don't want to accept God, so they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Trivikrama: So that they don't have to be accountable for their activities.
Prabhupada: Certainly. And they are being accountable. If they become so dull-headed, then God's power will make him a tree: "Stand here. Stand up here for three thousand years. That's all. You are so dull-headed that you have no sense, so become a tree so that even if you are cut, you cannot protest. You have no sense, senses." That is the punishment. "If you don't eat prasadam, then eat stool." This is the arrangement. So they are being punished. But they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand.
Pusta Krsna: With their science, they've been able to build so many buildings and roads and bridges and so many things which they consider wonderful.
Prabhupada: And what you'll do with the buildings? You'll be kicked out. Your building will remain there. Your spoiling labor will remain there, but you will be kicked out. You cannot live there. Who is managing these affairs? "So you have constructed a building? All right, I kick you out. Get out!" Then what is the purpose of building? If you know that "I am constructing this high building, and tomorrow somebody will kick me out," then what is the use? Have you made it insured that you'll not be kicked out?
Visnujana: No.
Prabhupada: Then it is useless waste of time.
Madhudvisa: You can enjoy it while you are here, though.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That is called foolishness, that "I am going to be kicked out tomorrow, and let me enjoy tonight." That's all. That is foolishness.
Madhudvisa: This is their only recourse 'cause they don't believe in anything after this life.
Prabhupada: Yes. They... That... "Don't believe" means, don't take knowledge means, foolishness. Yes. Just like you are walking. You don't believe that you are going to the temple, but simply walking. Is that very intelligent? We are going. We are going to some place. We know that. That is intelligent. And if I ask you, "Why you are walking?" "That I do not know." Is that very intelligent man?
Satsvarupa: Like animal.
Prabhupada: Animal, that's all. Animal also knows that "I'll have to go there." Without any aim, without any purpose, if they are working, they are fool number one, mudhah.
Pusta Krsna: Sometimes the argument is put forward that in places where's there is not sufficient food and shelter and things like this, these problems should be solved first before the problem of spiritual life.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why don't you solve? There are so many land. Come here and grow food. Grow fruit. That is... That is the desire of Krsna. Annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. Produce food and eat in sufficiently, be strong, and chant Hare Krsna. That is our philosophy. Why you are producing bolts and nuts, tire and tubes? Eat. Rascal. They do not know that first of all you must eat. No, everyone is engaged in industry. Why? Krsna does not say that "Take to industry." Krsna says, "Produce foodstuff." Annad bhavanti bhutani. If you produce foodstuff, then both your animals, yourself, will be happy, becoming strong. Why do they manufacture other things? All these people are engaged in manufacturing, and nobody is manu..., er, growing food. Therefore the price of food grain is rising. Suppose I am growing food, and you are not growing, so you have to purchase from me. I'll ask, "You have to pay this price." And you have to pay. And if you grow your own food, there is no such question. The simple economic problem, solution, this rascal cannot take. If you grow your own food, I grow my own, then who is going to purchase? The price will be reduced automatically. If you have no customer, then you have to reduce your price. But they do not understand even the simple thing that "God has given us enough land to produce food grain, and we must eat." They do not understand this. And still, they are scientist, philosopher, politician. Just see. That is the difficulty. All rascals, fools, they are leading the whole human society.
Ramesvara: They're too busy making money to grow their own food.
Prabhupada: "So then pay more money. Come on. You have earned money and give me. I shall give you food. And whatever I shall ask, you have to pay." This simple thing, more demand-price is more. Then why do you gripe, "Oh, everything is price growing, price growing." Why it will not? If I have got food, and you have to purchase, and I have got so many customers, I must increase. That is economic theory: more demand -- the price is increased. And then you say, "There are so many problems. We have to solve first." But you have created this problem, rascal. And you shall must suffer. You have infected some disease. Now you must suffer. It is like say, karanam guna-sango 'sya [Bg. 13.22]. The reason is that you have infected some quality of the modes of nature and you must suffer for that. How you can deny it? If you have infected some disease like cholera, smallpox, and when you are suffering, how you can blaim? You have infected. You must suffer. Nature's law is so strict that as soon as you infect a particular type of quality of nature -- there are so many -- you must suffer for that, or so-called enjoy. There are two things, suffer and enjoy. So you must have to undergo the process. This is... Nature's process is so nice. As soon as you do something, there is reaction and you are bound up. Yajnarthe karma anyatra loko 'yam karma bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Bandhanah means bound up. Immediately you become bound up. And still, you are thinking, "Independent." The nature's law is so strict.
Pusta Krsna: But the argument is that "The cities are there, and now what can we do?"
Prabhupada: Hm ?
Pusta Krsna: The cities are already there. There are millions of people in the cities...
Prabhupada: Therefore we are offering this place. Come here. Why do you not come here and live with us? Then this is... The Krsna consciousness movement is... This is the movement, that you come here, live with us, and produce your food, produce your milk, be happy, healthy, and chant Hare Krsna. This is our movement. Therefore we are creating New Vrindaban and farm, and we are trying to purchase... This is our movement, that we give you sufficient food, shelter, health, philosophy, religion, character, everything, purity. Come here. Why don't you come? They come here on the weekdays, and then fly away, go away. You see? We are giving such nice room, but they will not live here. They will go to the hubble-bubble of the city. They like to come here. Therefore they spend so much money for gas and come here. But because they are not accustomed, they go back again. Return ticket. From hell to heaven, and again hell (laughter) Return ticket-coming back to hell again, not going back to God.
Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, you said there was a man who read your Easy Journey, and he was very enthusiastic that he could go to other planets.
Prabhupada: But you must come back. He said, "Oh, I am not coming back again?" "No." "No, no, then I don't want." Yes, that is the psychology. The Russians, when some aeronaut was flying high in the sky, he was seeing: "Where is my Moscow?" Yes, it was published. That is maya. The... Another incidence happenned that when the jet was in danger, he was thinking of "How to come back home?" This is maya. Cannot go. Even though you like to go, still, it will attract you again, back to hell. Otherwise, how people are living in -- what is called? That place where is ice?
Hamsaduta: Alaska.
Brahmananda: Greenland.
Jagadisa: North Pole?
Prabhupada: What is the name of those people?
Devotees: Eskimos.
Prabhupada: Eskimos. Is that very good living? Just see. They won't come here. This is maya. This is maya. Avaranatmika-sakti. They, he's living in hell but maya is covering: "No, it is not hell; it is heaven." This is maya. Similarly all of us, we are living in this universe, material universe. We are thinking "This is all good. What is the use of God and going back to home, back to Godhead?" They do not take it very seriously. Although we give all information that "You'll haven't, you haven't got to work there. You'll get everything. Your life is eternal and blissful, and full of knowledge," they are not interested. Plugged.
Pusta Krsna: Plugged.
Prabhupada: Yes. Plugged ear, er, ears, yes. "You go on speaking, but I have plugged my ear." (laughter)
Trivikrama: "Chant, chant, chant."
Prabhupada: Yes. "Can't, can't, can't." That's it. (laughter) This is going on. The best intelligence is that "We are hearing so much about the spiritual world; there is so much happiness. Why not try one life? Like cats and dogs, I have tried so many lives. Why not sacrifice one life? Where is the loss there?" But no, they are so many, fallen, they'll not accept.
Satsvarupa: One man wrote a book about our movement, Hare Krsna, and he said one tragedy of this movement is that if a young boy or girl takes to this movement and later decides to try the material world again, he will have ruined his chances for a career, (laughter) and it'll be too late for him.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Trivikrama: That's a fact.
Pusta Krsna: Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti... [Bg. 2.40].
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of many millions of people, one may become interested about what is the perfection of life." They do not want. "And out of such millions of persons," yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3], "who was trying for perfection of life, out of many millions of them, one can understand Me, Krsna." maya is so strong. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna consciousness is not for ordinary person. Most fortunate, bhagyavan jiva... Guru-krsna krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. All these living entities, wandering throughout the universe... Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite. If one gets the chance of guru and Krsna, then he can understand. And if still one argues, then he's again misfortunate. Therefore Krsna demands, "You rascal, don't argue! Surrender!" Sarva-dharman parityaja mam... That is the way. He commands.
Devotee: Actually, you were asking if there were any examples of explosions happenning without material cause, and I was just wondering if you could explain how volcanoes explode.
Prabhupada: Hm? That is God's desire, nature's way. Nature is behind this, and behind nature...
Devotee: Through the demigods?
Prabhupada: No. Nature, the material nature, and... Just like in... Sometimes at night you have got, what is called, pollution, night pollution?
Trivikrama: Yes.
Prabhupada: So why it is happenning? Why it is happenning? Why this eruption comes? Can you explain?
Devotee: I don't know what night pollution is.
Trivikrama: Passing semina in sleep.
Devotee: Oh.
Prabhupada: Why it does happen? What is your explanation? Nobody can explain?
Ramesvara: Desire in the heart, subtle desire.
Pusta Krsna: It is nature, just...
Prabhupada: No, no, nature... The body is made of material nature, and the eruption is coming. Why it is coming? Does it come in the dead body?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupada: Then? What is the cause?
Paramahamsa: The soul, living entity.
Prabhupada: Because the soul is there. Similarly, the Supersoul is there, and He's arranging everything. The volcano's eruption does not take automatically. When it is desired by Krsna, then it takes place. Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. Why don't you read Bhagavad-gita. "Under My superintendence." When He knows that "Now this eruption is required," immediately there is... Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. He has got so many potencies. One potency works. That's all. Because the living soul is there, therefore the seminal discharge takes place. Similarly, because the supreme living is there, therefore all these things are happenning. Where is the difficulty to understand? Krsna says, vistabhyaham idam krtsnam ekamsena sthito jagat: [Bg. 10.42] "The whole worldly affair is going on because I am there." Vistabhya: "I have entered into it." Don't you read in the Bhagavad-gita? Then? And we are reading that portion, how Karanavasayi Visnu enters in the each universe. He's... Then He expands Himself as Ksirodakasayi Visnu. We are explaining that. Krsna says in Bhagavad-gita, vistabhya. Vistabhya means entering.
Brahmananda: You have written that Maha-Visnu has some attraction to the material world?
Prabhupada: No, He has no attraction. You have got attraction. Therefore He creates. Maha-Visnu knows, or Krsna knows that "These rascals will have attraction for this material... All right, let Me arrange." He has no attraction. Why He'll have attraction?
Brahmananda: So one of the devotees said they read that in one of the books.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Satsvarupa: There is one purport that says that Krsna is different than Visnu because He's not, He has nothing to do with the material world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: But Maha-Visnu, He has some attraction, or...?
Prabhupada: No attraction. He is duty... He is, what is called, duty-bound, assigned by Krsna, or He's not ordered. Krsna expands in Maha-Visnu and takes charge of this affair.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Ramesvara: Before I was asking about the scientific theory that the atoms are always moving, and you said that the earth is not moving now.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Ramesvara: You said that the... You pointed to a chunk and said that it is not moving. But they're...
Prabhupada: But if you..., then you are also moving. Everything is moving because you are on the earth. When the train moves, everything moves. But how it moves, train? That you have to search out. Train is not automatically moving. Some power, engine, is moving it. That is blind vision, that "Train is moving." How the train is moving? You have to see. That is childish. Train is not moving. The engine is moving the train. And how the engine is moving? The coal, fire, is moving. Then wherefrom the coal come? In this way, you have to search out. You'll find, ultimately, the supreme cause is Krsna. Nothing is moving without Krsna's indication. That is the explanation,
Mayadhyaksena: [Bg. 9.10] "Under My superintendence..." When Krsna desires, this big, big chunk will move in the air. Recently, Madhudvisa Maharaja said, the buses were flying in the sky.
Brahmananda: Buses?
Prabhupada: Yes. In Darwin.
Devotees: Oh, in that, that cyclone, cyclone...
Prabhupada: Yes. And whole city smashed.
Ramesvara: They don't know how to search beyond the microscopic level, microscope level. They think that the atoms have their own energy. They don't know the process of searching...
Prabhupada: The energy is: Krsna is there. Andantara-stha-paramanu-
Ramesvara: There is one theory that even the atoms have intelligence because the way they combine together to form larger molecules...
Prabhupada: That means that is Krsna's intelligence. They do not see Krsna. Try to understand the whole philosophy because you have to preach and you have to confront so many atheist rascals.
Pusta Krsna: These scientists need gurus.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Pusta Krsna: The scientists need guru.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: They never even think of these things.
Prabhupada: When they are captured and cornered, they say, "Yes, we are trying. In future we shall do that." Post-dated check. "You take this check. In future it will be paid." Who will accept that check?
Ramesvara: To that, they always say that in the past, man laughed at some scientific theories, and later they were proven...
Prabhupada: It is not scientific. It is all rascaldom. What you are giving, that is not science, that is rascaldom. Why shall I accept it is scientific? Because you have no full knowledge. What you are giving, it is simply rascaldom. Jaya. (Bengali)
Indian: (Bengali)
Nalini-kanta: So we say that one should live very simply, produce his own food, and chant.
Prabhupada: Yes. Then avoid all problems.
Nalini-kanta: So if we are given charge of the society, we should dismantle all this industry, all these cities...?
Prabhupada: No. We're not going to. But we can manage how to do it. First of all give me. I'll say how to manage. (laughter) We'll not create any problem. We do not wish to destroy anything.
Nalini-kanta: Just like we have big printing press and incense factory.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Nalini-kanta: But it is all managed nicely.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...mediately manage. "Stop all these worker illicit sex, intoxication, and chant Hare Krsna." The whole atmosphere will change. The production will be increased. There will be no dissatisfaction among the worker and the capitalists. Immediately everything will be solved. Now the competition is going on that the capitalist is exacting as much money from their labor, and he is spending it for wine and women, and the worker is seeing that "Our money, he's spending. Why not ourself? So let us form a communist party. Let us fight." This is going on. But they do not know how to spend money, sudras. When a sudra gets money, he'll spend for wine and women. That's all. He does not know that it should be spent for Krsna consciousness.
Nalini-kanta: So intoxication, illicit sex, we will make that illegal.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is illegal, but because they are rogues and rascals, they are doing all these illegal things. And because it is democracy, when the majority are acting illegally, it becomes legal. This is democracy. They cannot avoid it. They want to do the same thing by voting "There is no God." So there is no God. Bas. Finish. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Morning Walk -- April 3, 1975, Mayapur
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
