"Revive Our Relationship with Krishna"

68/11/27 Los Angeles, Bhagavad-gita 2.8-12



Prabhupada: Read. Hare Krsna. Yes, Second Chapter

Devotee: Start at verse 8. "I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not even be able to destroy it if I win an unrivaled kingdom on the earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven [Bg. 2.8]. Sanjaya said: Having spoken thus, Arjuna, chastiser of the enemy told Krsna, Govinda, ‘I shall not fight,' and fell silent [Bg. 2.9]. O descendant of Bharata, at that time Krsna, smiling in the midst of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken Arjuna [Bg. 2.10]. The Blessed Lord said..."

Prabhupada: So when we become very serious in a dangerous position, as if we are lost, but Krsna smiles. You see? Sometimes we think... This is called illusion. The same example, just a man in dreaming, crying, "There is tiger, there is tiger. It is eating me," and the man who is awakened, he smiles, "Where is the tiger?" (chuckles) "Where is the tiger?" And this man is crying, "Tiger, tiger, tiger." Similarly, when we are very much perplexed... Just like the politicians, they are sometimes perplexed in political situation and claiming, "This is my land, my country," and other party also claiming, "It is my land, my country," and they are fighting very gravely. Krsna smiles. "What these nonsense are claiming ‘my country, my land'? It is My land, and they are claiming ‘my land' and fighting." Actually, the land belongs to Krsna, but these people, under illusion, claiming, "It is my land, it is my country," forgetting how long he shall belong to this country or this nation. That is called illusion.

So this is our position. Without understanding our real position we are perplexed with these all worldly problems, which are all false. Janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Moha, moha means illusion. This is the illusion. So everyone is under this illusion. So one who is intelligent, if he can understand that this worldly position is simply illusion... The, all the thoughts which I have concocted, based on the principle of "I" and "mine," this is all illusion. So one, when one is intelligent to get out of the illusion, he surrenders to a spiritual master. That is being exemplified by Arjuna. When he's too much perplexed... He was talking with Krsna as friend, but he saw that "This friendly talking will not solve my question." And he selected Krsna... Because he knew the value of Krsna. At least, he ought to have known. He is friend. And he knows that Krsna is accepted... "Although He is acting as my friend, but by great authorities Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That was known to Arjuna. So he said that "I'm so much puzzled that I cannot understand. Even accepting that I shall be victorious in this battle, still I shall not be happy. What to speak of being victorious on this planet, if I become the king of all other planets or if I become a demigod in the higher planetary system, still this distress cannot be mitigated." You see?

Devotee: Verse 11: "The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead [Bg. 2.11]." Purport: "The Lord at once took the position of a teacher and chastised his student, calling him indirectly a fool. The Lord said, ‘You are talking like a learned man, but you do not know that one who is learned, one who knows what is body and what is soul, does not lament for any stage of the body, neither in the living nor in the dead condition.' As explained in the later chapters, it will be clear that knowledge means to know matter and spirit and the controller of both. Arjuna argued that religious principles should be given more importance than politics or sociology, but he did not know that knowledge of matter, soul and the Supreme is more important than religious formularies. And because he was lacking in that knowledge, he should not have posed himself as a very learned man. As he did not happen to be a very learned man, he was consequently lamenting for something which was unworthy of lamentation. The body is born and is destined to be vanquished today or tomorrow. Therefore the body is not as important as the soul. One who knows this is actually learned. For him there is no cause for lamentation in any stage of the material body."

Prabhupada: He says, Krsna says, that "This body, either dead or alive, has nothing to be lamented." Dead body, suppose when the body is dead, it has no value. What is the use of lamenting? You can lament for many thousands of years, it will not come to life. So there is no cause of lamenting on dead body. And so far spirit soul is concerned, that is eternal. Even it appears to be dead, or with the death of this body, he does not die. So why one should be overwhelmed, "Oh, my father is dead, my such and such relative is dead," and crying? He's not dead. This knowledge one must have. Then he'll be cheerful in all cases and he'll be interested simply in Krsna consciousness. There is nothing to be lamented for the body, either alive or dead. That is being instructed by Krsna in this chapter. Go on.

Devotee: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings. Nor in the future shall any of us cease to be [Bg. 2.12]." Purport: "In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad, as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that..."

Prabhupada: (correcting pronunciation) Svetasvatara. There are many Upanisads, they are called Vedas. Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. Just like in a chapter there is a headline, similarly these Upanisads are the headlines of the Vedas. There are 108 Upanisads, principal. Out of that, nine Upanisads are very important. So out of those nine Upanisads, Svetasvatara Upanisad, Taittireya Upanisad, Aitareya Upanisad, Isopanisad, Isa Upanisad, Mundaka Upanisad, Mandukya Upanisad, Kathopanisad, these Upanisads are very important. And whenever there is argument on some point, one has to give reference from these Upanisads. If one can give reference from the Upanisads, then his argument is very strong. Sabda-pramana. Pramana means evidence. Evidence... If you want to gain in your case... Just like you have to give very nice evidence in a court, similarly, according to Vedic culture, the evidence is pramana. Pramana means evidence. Sabda-pramana. There are three kinds of evidences accepted by the learned scholars in Vedic culture. One evidence is pratyaksa. Pratyaksa means direct perception. Just like I am seeing you, you are seeing me. I am present, you are present. This is direct perception. And there is another evidence which is called anumana. Suppose in that room, and I am coming just now, I do not know whether any person there is or not. But there is some sound, I can imagine, "Oh, there is somebody." This is called anumana. In logic it is called hypothesis. That is also evidence. If by my bona fide suggestions I can give evidence, that is also accepted. So direct evidence, and, what is called, hypothesis or suggestion evidence. But the strong evidence is sabda-pramana. Sabda, sabda-brahman. That means Vedas. If one can give evidence from the quotation of the Vedas, then it has to be accepted. Nobody can deny the Vedic evidence. That is the system. How it is so? Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given very nice example. That is in the Vedas. Just like we keep conchshell in the Deities' room. Conchshell is considered very pure, transcendental; otherwise, how we can keep before Deity and you blow conchshell? You offer water with conchshell. How you can offer? But what is this conchshell? The conchshell is the bone of an animal. It is nothing but bone of an animal. But the Vedic injunction is that if you touch the bone of an animal, you'll have to take bath immediately. You become impure. Now one may say, "Oh, this is contradiction. In one place it is said that if you touch the bone of an animal, then you have to purify yourself by taking bath immediately, and here, the bone of an animal is in the Deities' room. So it is contradiction, is it not? If bone of an animal is impure, how you can place it in the Deities' room? And if bone of an animal is pure, then what is the meaning of becoming impure and take bath?" You'll find similar contradiction in the Vedic injunctions. But because it is said by the Vedas that bone of an animal is impure, you have to accept. But this bone of an animal, conchshell, is pure. Just like sometimes our students are perplexed when we say that onion is not to be taken, but onion is a vegetable. So sabda-pramana means the Vedic evidence should be taken in such a way that no argument. There is meaning; there is no contradiction. There is meaning. Just like several times I have told you that cow dung. Cow dung is, according to Vedic injunction, is pure. In India it is actually used as antiseptic. In villages especially, there is large quantity of cow dung, and they're, all over the house they have smeared to make the house antiseptic. And actually after smearing cow dung in your room, when it is dried, you'll find refreshed, everything antiseptic. It is practical experience. And one Dr. Ghosh, a great chemist, he examined cow dung, that why cow dung is so much important in the Vedic literature? He found that cow dung contains all the antiseptic properties. In Ayur-veda, cow dung dried and burned into ashes is used as toothpowder. It is very antiseptic toothpowder. Similarly, there are many things, many injunctions in the Vedas, which may apparently appear as contradiction, but they are not contradiction. They are on experience, on transcendental experience. Just like a father says to his child that "My dear child, you take this food. It is very nice." And the child takes it, believing the father, authority. The child knows that "My father..." He is confident that "My father will never give me anything which is poison." Therefore he accepts it blindly, without any reason, without any analysis of the food, whether it is pure or impure. You have to believe in such a way. You go to a hotel because it is licensed by the government. You have to believe when you take foodstuff there it is nice, it is pure, or it is antiseptic, or it is... But how do you know it? The authority. Because this hotel is authorized by the government, it has got license, therefore you believe. Similarly sabda-pramana means as soon as there is evidence in the Vedic literature, "This is this," you have to accept. That's all. Then your knowledge is perfect because you are accepting things from the perfect source. Similarly Krsna, Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Whatever He says, it is all right. Accept. Arjuna said at last, sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14]. "My dear Krsna, whatever You say I accept it." That should be our principle. Why should we bother about researching when the evidence is there from the authority?

So to save time, to save trouble one has to accept the authority, actual authority. This is the Vedic process. And therefore Veda says, tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tad vijnanartham, in order to learn that transcendental science, one has to accept guru. Gurum eva, certainly, one must. Otherwise there is no possibility. Therefore Krsna is accepted here as the spiritual master of Arjuna, and as the spiritual master or father or teacher has got right to chastise his son or disciple... A son is never dissatisfied when father chastises. That is the etiquette everywhere. Even the father is sometimes violent, the child or the son tolerates. A typical example is Prahlada Maharaja. Innocent child, Krsna consciousness child, but father torturing. He never says anything. "All right." Similarly Krsna, just after taking the position of the spiritual master, is designating Arjuna as a grand fool. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu also said that "My spiritual master found Me a great fool." Was Caitanya Mahaprabhu a fool? And can it be possible that anyone can become the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahaprabhu? Both things are impossible. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even not accepting Him as incarnation of Krsna, if simply you accept Him as ordinary scholar or man, there was no comparison of His scholarship. But He said that "My spiritual master found Me a great fool." What is that meaning? That "A person, even in My position, always remains a fool before his spiritual master. That is good for him." Nobody should impose that "What do you know? I know better than you." This position is not, denied. And other point is, from the disciple's point of view, why he should remain always a fool before a person? Unless he's actually authorized, actually so great that he can teach me as a fool. One should select a spiritual master in that way and as soon as the spiritual master is selected, one should remain always a fool, although he may not be a fool, but the better position is like that. So Arjuna, instead of remaining on the same level as friend and friend, voluntarily accepting to remain a fool before Krsna. And Krsna is accepting that "You are a fool. You're talking just like a learned man, but you are a fool because you are lamenting on a matter which no learned man laments." That means "A fool laments," that "You are a fool. Therefore you are a fool." It is in a round about way... Just like, what is called in logic? Parenthesis? Or something like that, called. Yes. That if I say that "You look like that person who stole my watch," that means "You look like a thief." Similarly, (chuckles) Krsna, in a round about way, says that "My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like learned man, but you are lamenting on a subject matter which no learned man laments." Go on.

Devotee: "In the Svetasvatara Upanisad it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities, in terms of their different situations according to individual work and reaction to work. That Supreme Personality of Godhead is also, by His plenary portions, alive in the heart of every living entity. Only saintly persons, who can see within and without the same Supreme Personality of Godhead, can actually attain to perfect peace eternal. The same Vedic truth enumerated herein is given to Arjuna and in that connection to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have very poor fund of knowledge. The Lord says clearly that He Himself, Arjuna, and all the kings who are assembled in the battlefield are eternally individual beings and that the Lord is eternally the maintainer of the individual living entities."

Prabhupada: What is the original verse? You read.

Devotee: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings... [Bg. 2.12]"

Prabhupada: Now, "Never there was a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor these people." Now He analytically says, "I, you, and..." first person, second person, and third person. That is complete. "I, you, and others." So Krsna says, "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons who have assembled in this battlefield did not exist." That means "In the past, I, you, and all of them, they individually existed." Individually. The Mayavadi theory is that the ultimate spirit is impersonal. Then how Krsna can say that "Never there was a time when I, you, and all these persons never existed"? That means, "I existed as individual, you existed as individual, and all these persons who are before us, they existed as individuals. Never there was a time." Now, what is your answer, Dinadayala? Krsna says never we were mixed up. We are all individuals. And He says, "Never we shall remain... Never there will be time when we shall not exist." That means in the past we existed as individuals, in the present there is no doubt we are existing as individual, and in the future also, we shall continue to remain as individuals. Then when the impersonal conception comes at all? In the past, present, future, there are three times. Huh? In all the times we are individuals. Then when God becomes impersonal or I become impersonal or you become impersonal? Where is the chance? Krsna clearly says, "There was never time when I, you, and all these individual kings or soldiers... It was not that we did not exist in the past." So in the past we existed as individual, and in the present there is no doubt. We are existing as individual. You are my disciple, I am your spiritual master, but you have got your individuality, I have got my individuality. If you don't agree with me, you can leave me. That is your individuality. So if you don't like Krsna, you cannot become in Krsna consciousness, that is your individuality. So this individuality continues. Similarly Krsna, if He does not like you, He may refuse you Krsna consciousness. Not that because you are following all the rules and regulations, Krsna is obliged to accept you. No. If He thinks that "He's nonsense; I cannot accept him," He'll reject you.

So He has got individuality, you have got individuality, everyone has got individuality. Where is the question of impersonalism come? There is no possibility. And if you don't believe Krsna, you don't believe Vedas, apart from anything else, Krsna is accepted as the supreme authority, the Personality of Godhead. Then if we don't believe Him, then where is the possibility of advancing in knowledge? There is no possibility of it. So there is no question of individuality. This is the statement of authority. Now, apart from statement of authority, you have to apply your reason and arguments. Can you say anywhere there is agreement between two parties? No. You go, study. In the state, in the family, in the community, in the nation, there is no agreement. Even in the assembly, even in your country. Suppose there is Senate, everyone has got country's interest, but he's thinking in his individual way. One is thinking that "My country's welfare will be in this line." Otherwise, why there is competition during election of president. Everyone is saying that "America needs Nixon." And another person, he also says, "America needs me." So, but why two? If America you, and you are both... No. There is individuality. Mr. Nixon's opinion is something else. Mr. another candidate's opinion is something else. In the assembly, in the Senate, in the Congress, in the United Nations, everyone is fighting with his individual view. Otherwise why there are so many flags in the world? You cannot say anywhere impersonalism. Personality is predominating everywhere. Everywhere, the personality, individuality, is predominant. So we have to accept. We have to apply our reason, arguments, and accept the authority. Then the question is solved. Otherwise it is most difficult.

Devotee: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Supreme Individual Person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain as eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore there is no cause for lamentation for any one of the individual living entities. The Mayavadi or impersonal theory that after liberation the individual soul, separate on account of maya or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman without individual existence..."

Prabhupada: Now, the Mayavadi says that this individuality is maya. So their conception is that spirit, the whole spirit is a lump. Their theory is ghatakasa potakasa. Ghatakasa potakasa means... Just like sky. The sky is an expansion, impersonal expansion. So in a pot, in a waterpot, in a pitcher that is closed... Now, within the pitcher, there is also sky, a small sky. Now as soon as the pitcher is broken, the outside, the bigger sky, and the small sky within the pitcher mixes. That is Mayavada theory. But this analogy cannot be applied. Analogy means points of similarity. That is the law of analogy. The sky cannot be compared... The small sky within the pitcher cannot be compared with the living entity. It is material, matter. Sky is matter, and individual living entity is spirit. So how you can say? Just like a small ant, it is spirit soul. It has got its individuality. But a big dead stone, hill or mountain, it has no individuality. So matter has no individuality. Spirit has individuality. So if the points of similarity differ, then there is no analogy. That is the law of analogy. So you cannot analogize with matter and spirit. Therefore this analogy is fallacious. Ghatakasa potakasa. Then another evidence is in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says that mamaivamso jiva-bhuta. "This individual souls, they are My part and parcel." Jiva-loke sanatanah. And they are eternal. That means eternally they are part and parcel. Then when... How this Mayavada theory can be supported, that due to maya, being covered by maya, they are now appearing individual, separate, but when the covering of maya will be taken away, they will mix up just like the small sky within the pitcher and the big sky outside mixes? So this analogy is fallacious from logical point of view, as well as from authentic Vedic point of view. They are eternally fragments. There are many other evidences from Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita says that spirit cannot be fragmented. So if you say that by covering of maya the spirit has become fragment, that is not possible. It cannot be cut. Just like if you cut one big piece of paper into small fragments, it is possible because it is matter, but spiritually it is not possible. Spiritually, eternally, the fragments are fragments, and the Supreme is Supreme. Krsna is the Supreme, and we are fragmental parts. We are fragments eternally. These things are explained in Bhagavad-gita in different places very nicely. I request you all to keep one copy of this Bhagavad-gita, every one of you, and read it carefully. And there will be examination in the coming September. So... Of course, that is voluntary. But I request you to prepare for the examination next September. And one who will pass the examination will get the title Bhakti-sastri. Have you distributed that... Yes. Go on.

Devotee: "Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others as it is..."

Prabhupada: Krsna never says that after liberation these individual souls will mix up with the Supreme Soul. Krsna never says in the Bhagavad-gita.

Devotee: "Krsna clearly says that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upanisads, will continue eternally. This statement of Krsna is authoritative."

Prabhupada: Yes, Upanisad says nityo nityanam. Now, nitya means eternal, and the Supreme Lord is the supreme eternal, and we individual souls, we are also many eternals. So He is the leader eternal. Eko bahunam... How He is leader? Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That one, singular number eternal, person, He is supplying all the needs of other eternals. These things are clearly said in the Vedas. And actually we are experiencing. Just like in Christian theology, the individual goes to the church and prays God, "Give us our daily bread." Why he's asking God? Of course, this atheist class of men are now teaching them, "Where is bread? You are going to church. You come to us; we shall supply you bread." So this Vedic thought is there also. The Vedas say, eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. That supreme one eternal, He's supplying, He's maintaining all other individual eternals. And Bible also enjoins that "You go, ask for your bread to God." So unless God is maintainer and supplier, why this injunction is there? Therefore He is the leader; He is the maintainer. And the Vedas clearly says this is the position. He is the Supreme. And by knowing this one can become in peace. That is the Vedic injunction. Go on.

Devotee: "This statement of Krsna is authoritative because Krsna cannot be subject to illusion. If individuality..."

Prabhupada: Yes. If the Mayavadi philosopher says that this statement of Krsna is in maya, that "He says that ‘Everyone was individual in the past.' No, in the past everyone was one, lump sum, homogeneous. By maya, we have become individual." If the Mayavadi says like that, then Krsna becomes one of the conditioned souls. He does not... He loses His authority. Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute. So Krsna is accepted as the Absolute. So if the Mayavadi theory is accepted, then Krsna's theory has to be rejected. If Krsna is rejected, then there is no need of reading Krsna's book, Bhagavad-gita. It is useless, waste of time. If He's a conditioned soul like us... Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Krsna's side. So unless... The Vedic principle is that unless one is not liberated from the material conditions, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. The conditioned soul, however he may be academically advanced, educated, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. Only one who is above the condition of these material laws, he can give us the perfect knowledge. Similarly Sankaracarya, he's also impersonalist, but he accepts Krsna the supreme authority. Sa bhagavan svayam krsna. "Krsna is that Supreme Personality of Godhead." The modern Mayavadi philosophers, they do not disclose this statement of Sankaracarya. To cheat people. But Sankaracarya's statement is there. We can give evidence. He accepts Krsna as the supreme authority. He has written so many nice poems praising or worshiping Krsna. And at the last time he says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. "You rascal fools. Oh, you are depending on grammar to understand. This is all nonsense." Bhaja govindam. "Just worship Govinda." Bhaja govindam bhaja... Three times he says. "Just worship Govinda." Bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says three times, harer nama harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Three times means giving too much stress. Just like we sometimes say, "You do this, do this, do this." That means no more denial. Finish all stress. So as soon as one thing is three times stressed, that means final. So Sankaracarya says, bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam mudha-mate. Mudha, mudha I've several times explained. Mudha means rascal, ass. You are depending on your grammatical understanding, dukrn karane. Dukrn, these are grammatical affix and prefix, pratya, prakarana. So you are depending on this verbal root, that verbal root, and creating, interpreting your meaning in a different way. All this is nonsense. This dukrn karane, your grammatical jugglery of words, will not save you at the time of death. You rascal, you just worship Govinda, Govinda, Govinda. That is the instruction of Sankaracarya also. Because he was a devotee, he was a great devotee. But he pretended to be an atheist because he was to deal with the atheists. Unless he presents himself as an atheist, the atheist followers will not hear him. Therefore he presented Mayavada philosophy for the time being. The Mayavada philosophy cannot be accepted eternally. The eternal philosophy is Bhagavad-gita. That is the verdict. Go on.

Devotee: "If individuality is not a fact, then Krsna would not have stressed it so much even for the future."

Prabhupada: Yes. He says that there was no such time when we are not individual, and there will be no such time in the future when we shall not remain individual. And so far present is concerned, we are all individual. You know. So where is the possibility of losing individuality? Become imperson? No. There is no possibility. This voidism, impersonalism, they are artificial ways of negating the perplexing variegatedness of this material existence. That is the negative side only. That is not a positive side. A positive side is that, as Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. "After giving up this material tabernacle, one comes to Me." Just like after leaving this room, you have to enter another room. You cannot say that "After leaving this room, I shall live in the sky." Similarly, after leaving this body, if you go to Krsna in the spiritual kingdom, your individuality will be there, but you'll have that spiritual body. When there is spiritual body there is no perplexities. Just like your body is different from the body of the aquatics. The aquatics, they have no disturbance in the water because their body is made like that. They can live there peacefully. You cannot live. Similarly, the fishes, if you take them out of the water, they cannot live. Similarly, because you are spirit soul, you cannot live peacefully in this material world. This is foreign. But as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, your life is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, real peace. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Krsna says, "After leaving this body, he does not come to this perplexities of material world." Mam eti, "He comes to Me." "Me" means His kingdom, His paraphernalia, His associates, everything. If some rich man or some king says, "All right, you come to me," that does not mean that he's impersonal. If a king says, "Come to..." means that he has got his palace, he has got his secretary, he has got his nice apartment, everything is there. How he can be imperson? But he says only, "Come to me." This "me" means everything. This "me" does not mean impersonal. And we get information from Brahma-samhita, laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. So He's not impersonal. He's raising cows, He's with hundreds and thousands of goddesses of fortune, His friends, His paraphernalia, His kingdom, His house, everything is there. So there is no question of impersonalism. Yes.

Devotee: "The Mayavadi may argue that the individuality spoken of by Krsna is not spiritual but material. Even accepting the argument that the individuality is material, how can one distinguish Krsna's individuality?"

Prabhupada: They also think of Krsna, therefore, as material. That is also condemned by Krsna. You'll find, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. "Because I have appeared just like a human being, these rascals deride at Me that I am also one of them." Mudha. Mudha means rascal. Just like Dr. Radhakrishnan says, "It is not to Krsna. Krsna... It is the soul within the Krsna." That means he identifies Krsna as one of us. His body and His soul different. But Krsna is not... Krsna said, sambhavamy atma-mayaya [Bg. 4.6]. "I appear in My own, original stature. I do not change." We change. The individual soul... Prakrteh kriyamanani. He's conducted by, influenced by this prakrti, nature, but He's not conducted or influenced by the nature. He comes in His own influence, as He is, atma-mayaya. This is the distinction. Therefore He does not change body. When I come, I change bodies. This time I may have this body; next time I may have another body. That is material, and therefore I forget. Just like Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter that "Many times you and I came. You have forgotten." Because we change our material body therefore we forget. These things all will be explained. Go on.

Devotee: "Krsna affirms His individuality in the past and confirms His individuality in the future also. He has confirmed His individuality in many ways, and impersonal Brahman has been declared as subordinate to Him. Krsna has maintained spiritual individuality all along, and if He is accepted as an ordinary conditioned soul in individual consciousness, then His Bhagavad-gita has no value as authoritative scripture. A common man with all the defects of human frailty is unable to teach that which is worth hearing. Bhagavad-gita is above such literature. No mundane book compares with the Bhagavad-gita. When one accepts Krsna as an ordinary man, the Bhagavad-gita loses all importance. The Mayavadi argues that the plurality mentioned in this verse is conventional and that the plurality thus refers to the body. But previous to this verse such a bodily conception has already been condemned. After condemning the bodily conception of living entities, how was it possible for Krsna to place a conventional proposition on the body again? Therefore, the plurality is on spiritual grounds as is confirmed by great teachers like Sri Ramanuja. It is clearly mentioned in many places in the Bhagavad-gita that this spiritual plurality is understood by those who are devotees of the Lord. Those who are envious of Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead have no bona fide access to the great literature. The nondevotee's approach to the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita is something like a bee licking on a bottle of honey. One cannot have a taste of honey unless one can taste within the bottle. Similarly, the mysticism of the Bhagavad-gita can be understood only by devotees. No one else can taste it, as is stated in the Fourth Chapter of the book. Nor can the Gita be touched by persons who envy the very existence of the Lord. Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis."

Prabhupada: Yes. Lord Caitanya has clearly said, mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. One meets disaster if he hears a Mayavadi philosopher to understand Vedic literature. That is His injunction. Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. Sarva-nasa means disaster. It is actually disaster. A mayavadi-bhasya, Mayavadi commentary, they have simply tried, (that) the individual, tiny individual spiritual spark that "You are the Supreme." So he's just (like) Dr. Frog. You see. So puffed up, puffed up, when he... At one time, it will burst. Therefore it is disastrous. It is disastrous. (chuckling) Mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa. So that's all. Finished? Yes. Oh, not yet?

Devotee: "Therefore the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentaries made by the Mayavadis and warns that one who takes to understanding of the Mayavadi philosophy loses all power to understand the real mystery of the Gita. If individuality refers to the empirical universe, then there is no need for teachings of the Lord. The plurality of the individual souls and of the Lord is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed by the Vedas as above mentioned."

Prabhupada: So you read very carefully Bhagavad-gita. You have to meet so many opposing elements; so you have to argue and convince them. Hm. (sankirtana party enters and offers obeisances) So, what is your report?

Tamala Krsna: Yesterday we sold 125 magazines and collected twenty dollars. Today, so far, Junior Dave(?), he has sold... How many have you sold today?

Junior Dave: Eighty-five.

Tamala Krsna: Eighty-five today so far.

Prabhupada: And there is night.

Tamala Krsna: Tonight, we will go out tonight.

Virabhadra(?): I have a question. In about the middle of your lecture you said that Krsna said that everybody always lived on. I lived on, you lived on, and everybody here lived on. Does that means us in this room lived on too? We always lived?

Prabhupada: What do you think?

Virabhadra: I don't know.

Prabhupada: Yes. "All" means including all men of this room also. You also.

Virabhadra: I lived on?

Prabhupada: Yes. You lived in the past, you are living at present, you will live in the future also. Is that all right?

Virabhadra: I understand that.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee: I read somewhere in your writings that in order to understand the confidential affairs of Radha and Krsna one must serve the gopis who are servants of the gopis, and I assumed that you were a servant of the gopis. Is that correct? Or... How do I serve the servants of the gopis?

Prabhupada: Gopis, they are not conditioned souls. They are liberated spirits. So first of all you have to come out from this conditioned life. Then the question of serving gopi will come. Don't be at the present moment, very eager to serve gopi. Just try to get out of your conditional life. Then time will come when you'll be able to serve gopi. In this conditional stage we cannot serve anything. Krsna is performing it (everything?). But Krsna gives us opportunities to accept service in this arca-marga. Just like we keep the Deity of Krsna, offer prasada under regulation, under principle. So we have to make advance in this way, this chanting, hearing, and worshiping in the temple, arati, offering prasada. In this way, as we make advance, then automatically Krsna will reveal to you and you'll understand your position, how you have to... Gopis means who are always, constantly engaged in the service of the Lord. So that eternal relationship will be revealed. So we have to wait for that. Immediately we cannot imitate serving gopis. That's a good idea that you shall serve gopi, but it will take time. Not immediately. Immediately we have to follow the rules and regulations and routine work. Yes.

Visnujana: Do the liberated souls also seek after this Krsna consciousness? Those who have become free...

Prabhupada: They become perfect in Krsna consciousness. Liberated soul means... We are just trying to be Krsna conscious. We are not actually in full Krsna consciousness. We are... Just like a diseased person is trying to recover. So one who is recovered, there is no question of his healthy life. We are trying to be healthy, our present position. So we are trying to be Krsna conscious. So one who is liberated is nothing but Krsna conscious. You follow? Yes. Krsna consciousness is the perfection of life. So we are trying to reach that platform of perfection by regulative principle. But when we are actually on the platform, there is nothing but Krsna consciousness. That is the perfection of life. That is our actual, liberated stage. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. That is our svarupa. Svarupa means actual constitutional position. And mukti, liberation, means to come to that real position. Just like healthy life means to come to the normal life from the diseased stage. That is healthy life and normal life. So Krsna consciousness is our normal consciousness. This normal consciousness is now polluted. We have got so many other consciousness. So this is an attempt to get out of all, I mean to say, infected consciousness, come to the real stage of pure Krsna consciousness. One question. No more. Next day. Yes?

Devotee: In Srimad-Bhagavatam you have said that... It's stated that Vyasadeva was afraid when Suta Gosvami was born that he would leave home because he was already a liberated soul.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee: It says in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that Vyasadeva was afraid that Suta Gosvami when he was born would leave home because he was already a liberated soul.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: But he was attracted to Krsna's pastimes. So what...?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the sign of liberated soul. Because to become attracted by Krsna, that is our normal condition. So he was liberated; therefore normally he became attracted with Krsna's pastimes. That is his normal life. One who is not attracted by Krsna's pastimes, he will be attracted by President Johnson's pastimes. (laughter) One has to be attracted. One has to be attracted by the dog's pastimes. Don't you see a person how he is serving the dog? The dog stands, passes urine, he also stands. You see? He's a human being, and he is waiting for the dog passing urine. How much he is attending the pastimes of the dog? So if you (are) not attracted by the pastimes of God, then you'll have to be attracted by the pastimes of the dog. There is no other alternative. Either maya or Krsna. The atheist, agnostic, they deny Krsna's pastimes; therefore they remain attracted by the pastimes of this material world. Yes?

Madhudvisa: Prabhupada, I think this is... Did Lord Caitanya take sannyasa from a Mayavadi sannyasi?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is a formality. That is not very important. Because Mayavadi sannyasis, they are also Vedic sannyasis. They are not outsiders. But their interpretation of Veda is different. But they follow the Vedic rules. So this acceptance of sannyasa is following a principle of the Vedic rules. So the Mayavadi sannyasi may differ in his interpretation, but he's following the Vedic rules. So this acceptance of sannyasa is following the Vedic rules. So you can accept sannyasa even from Mayavadi. It doesn't matter. But you have to transcend the limits of Vedic rules. That is Krsna consciousness. That also Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Although He took sannyasa, He did not assume the sannyasa title. His sannyasa guru was Kesava Bharati. Naturally, He would have accepted the Bharati title. Sri Krsna Bharati, or something like that. But He remained Sri Krsna Caitanya. Caitanya is the name of the brahmacari under the Bharati sannyasi. One brahmacari... The brahmacaris, they are assistant or personal servitors of a sannyasi. That is the system. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was... In the beginning, He was accepted... That is the Mayavadi system. One is accepted first of all as brahmacari. So that, His name was Caitanya. But even after His acceptance of sannyasa, He did not assume the title Bharati. That means actually He did not take sannyasa. That was simply formality. Because Mayavadi sannyasi thinks that he is God; so how He can assume that title? He was preaching, He was going to preach that we are servant of God; therefore He did not assume that title. And besides that, when Caitanya Mahaprabhu was going to Lord..., see Jagannatha Puri, His rod was taken away by Nityananda and it was broken and thrown away. So He, apparently He became very angry that "You have broken My rod, sannyasa rod. So I am not going with You." He separated. These statements are there in the Caitanya-caritamrta. So in one sense, Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not require to accept any sannyasa guru, but He accepted the formality that if one takes sannyasa, one has to take sannyasa from another sannyasi. That is the system. Just like if you want to get yourself married, you have to call for a priest. That does not mean that you have to agree with the priest's personal opinion. Do you follow? Yes. He may execute the rules and regulation of marriage ceremony, but that does not mean that one has to agree with the priest's opinion, personal opinion. This is the answer. But when you accept a spiritual master, that is not allowed. Unless you cent percent agree with the spiritual master's opinion or philosophy, there is no need of accepting a spiritual master. There is no need. Yes.

Jaya-gopala: How is Mayadevi in such a distasteful position? How did she acquire her position?

Prabhupada: (S)He's not acquired. She's given that position by Krsna. Because there are many individual souls who will defy Krsna; therefore Mayavadi (Mayadevi) is required to punish them. Mayadevi is required to punish them. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. "It is very difficult to surpass the stringent laws of My maya." So laws..., the maya is not independent. Just like police force. What is the value of police force unless government gives the power? Does it mean... Suppose a Mr. John, he comes as a policeman. He's Mr. John. What power he has got? But because government has given him power, he can arrest you. Similarly, Maya has no powers. Krsna has given her power to chastise these individual souls who are defying the authority of Krsna. They should be punished. It is Maya's thankless task, but Maya is obedient servant of Krsna. Mama maya. He says, "My maya." So Maya is not degraded. Maya is faithful servant of Krsna. She is faithfully serving. That is stated in the Brahma-samhita. You should read. So many nice books you have got. What is Maya doing? That is stated in the Brahma-samhita. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga [Bs. 5.44]. Durga is Maya. Now what is the position of Maya? Maya is so strong, that srsti-sthiti-pralaya. She can perform creation, maintenance, and dissolution of this whole universe. She's so powerful. The material nature is so powerful. So srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhan a-saktir eka. Alone, she can do this as good as Krsna or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva [Bs. 5.44]. But she is just like shadow. Chayeva yasya. Chayeva yasya... She is working just like shadow. Just like here is shadow of my hand. If I shake my hand, the shadow also shakes. The Maya is acting like that. In the Bhagavad-gita also it is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. "Under My superintendence, prakrti, the nature, or Maya, is acting." Chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga. And next line, icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa. That Maya is acting under the direction of the Personality. And who is that personality? Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. "That personality is Govinda, the Supreme Person. I am offering my respectful obeisances." So Maya is acting under the direction of Krsna just like the shadow is moving under the movement of the original. So Maya's position is not degraded. Don't think like that. Therefore Vaisnava offers all respect to Maya because she is working under Krsna. She is Vaisnavi. She is also energy of Krsna. Therefore she is also Vaisnavi. In the Candi... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.8-12 -- Los Angeles, November 27, 1968

"Part 3 The Unavoidable Battle"

"Part 3 The Unavoidable Battle"

66/03/09 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


This is the clear version of number -- you can note down -- number twelve verse of the Second Verse, er, Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

Now, now I have already explained that because Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and because He has got clear vision, and because He has full knowledge, He cannot give us misdirection. And what is given, that is perfect. So we have to believe that in future, even after liberation... Now, one thing we must also explain -- the liberation, the conception of liberation. So there are different, five kinds of liberation. One of them, liberation, is to become one with the Lord, one with the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti, to merge into the existence of, of the Supreme. That is also another. That is one of the five liberations. That is not the only liberation. That means we all individual beings, we are individual constitutionally. God is the father or creator or whatever, or the source of all life, or source of our existence. Whatever you like, you can say. So we have, we have been created in that way. Eko bahu syama. God has become many. This is also version of the Vedas that many, all these many, we are also god. Just like the fire diffuses its sparks. The sparks coming out of the fire, it is the..., they are also part and parcel of the fire. Similarly we, we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. Now, He wanted to become many. He wanted to become many, so He has become many, and we are that many. So we are not different from God. We are not different from God, but because He wanted to become many, so we have become many. Now, thing is, when God wanted to become many, there must be some purpose behind this. Otherwise, why did He like to become many? He was one, one without second. That's all right. But why did He become many?

So that is a question, one must like to put, that "Why God became many?" So that is, that answer is that because God is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1] -- He's all-pleasure -- therefore, without many, there is no pleasure. Just like here I sit down the whole day alone, but I become more active and more pleasing when you come. Whenever we want to enjoy some pleasure, pleasure is not enjoyed alone. Pleasure is enjoyed with many. Now God is by nature... He's anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). He's always full of pleasure, full of blissfulness. Now, if He wants to become many, it is... He's omnipotent. He can become many. Where is the objection there? He can... He can manifest Himself in various... Just now we have quoted a verse from Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta-rupam means unlimited forms. Unlimited forms. Ad... Still, they are one. In spite of becoming unlimited, they're one. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots, waterpots, in every pot you'll find the sun's reflection. But that millions of reflections, sun, does not mean that sun has lost his oneness. Sun is one. That is also a Vedic system, that we are all reflection like that. So anyway, these many, many forms of God, is from the desire of God. Now, out of these... Because God has got some desire, transcendental desire, to enjoy with many. He enjoys with His own energy because He is all-perfect. Just like if I want to enjoy life, I want family, I want a wife, I want children, I want friends, I want servants. So I have to think before having a wife. You see? Because I am limited, so I think twice, whether I am able to keep a wife, then whether I am able to maintain my children. These things are consideration. And actually, in the present society every young man is thinking like that. You see? Whenever the question of marrying is there, they think like that. But that thinking is due to our imperfectness. Because we are not all-powerful, therefore we think like that. But when we give the qualification to God that He is all-powerful, omnipotent, so He can maintain any number of children or any number of wives. Otherwise, there is no meaning of omnipotent. So similarly, God has become many, and He has got a plan behind this thinking of many. Now, out of these manies, if one wants to merge again into the existence of God, so God has no objection.

Woman: Huh?
Prabhupada: God has no objection. Now, from God we have become many. Now, suppose I or you want that I don't want to keep myself as one of the many. I want to become one with Him. If you like that, that is called sayujya-mukti. So God does not deny you. "All right, you merge into Me." But that does not mean all other manies also merge into Him. That does... Because, individually, I want to merge into the existence of God, that does not mean all other manies... Because many means not only myself. There are millions and billions and trillions of many. So if out of that trillion, billion, one wants to merge into the existence of God, God is all-powerful; why he should be denied? "All right, you merge into Me. If you don't want to keep your individuality, if you want to merge into Myself, all right, you are welcome." Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find it, "Anyone who wants Me in any way, I fulfill his desire."

So that oneness, merging into the existence of..., that is not a general rule. That is a specific instance only, that if anyone wants to merge into the existence of God, he can do that. God has no objection. But if others... That does (not) mean that everyone gener..., as a rule merges, merge into the existence of God. There are others. Just like another example. You take it. Generally, this example is given, that the, the rivers, the rivers all flow into the sea, and they become one. Or the drop of the ocean water, when put into the ocean, the drop of the ocean water loses his existence. It become one with the... That's all right. Now, if you have seen the ocean, there are always millions and millions of drops coming out by the dashing of the waves. You see? That is going on continually. And some of them again falling into the water. They lose their... They lose the drop existence. But that does not mean that that creation of drop is stopped. Even from that example. You see? And because the river waters comes and, I mean to say, merges into the sea water, that does not mean the river, all rivers are stopped. The rivers are there. Another example: now, there are many aquatic animals within the water. They are also... Now, as the drop of the water emerges from the sea water and again merges into the sea water, so that is a nice example, but these fishes, these aquatic animals, they are also born in that water. Nobody has given these aquatic animals from anywhere else. They are... They have taken their birth from that water. They are also born of the water. Just like the drops of the water also born of the water, similarly, these living aquatic animals, they are also born of the water. Now, the drop of the water merges into the water and loses his existence -- that does not mean -- there are other living entities within the water, millions and billions -- they also lose their identity. They keep their identity.

So some of the living beings may merge into the existence of the God. That is called sayujya-mukti. But there are many millions and millions and billions of... Ananta. They want to keep their existence and enjoy the association of God. That is the difference between jnani and bhakta. The jnani's ultimate aim is nirveda-brahmanusandhanam(?). They want to become one with the Supreme. He does not, a jnani does not want to keep himself separately from the Supreme. He wants into the merging.

Woman: You mean the jnani yogi?

Prabhupada: Jnani. Yes. Jnani, not yogi.

Woman: Jnani.

Prabhupada: Jnani. Jnani means philosophers, empiric philosophers. Empiric philosophers. Brahma, Brahmavadis, those who want to merge into the existence of Brahman. They are called jnanis. And those who meditate on God within himself, they are called yogis. This is general definition. And those, those who worship the Supreme as Personality of Godhead, they are devotees.

Woman: Yes. The name? The name? You say jnani...?

Prabhupada: Jnani, yogi and bhakta.

Woman: Bhakta.

Prabhupada: Bhakta.

Woman: The other one...

Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakta.

Woman: Jnani, how do you spell it?

Prabhupada: J, N, A, N, I. "Jan-nanee. Jan-nanee." The spelling is "Jananee." So the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Truth is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, the Supreme Truth. Now, according to... Because we have already explained that each and every individual being has got his individual minute quantity of independence. God has given us. Now, by our independence, I may accept as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I may accept Him that the all-pervading Supersoul, and I may accept Him that the all-pervading Brahman, impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence. So all these are applicable to the Absolute Truth. Now, it depends on my discretion whether I want to merge into the existence of the Lord, whether I want to keep my individuality and associate with Him as friend, as father, mother, as wife. Just like we have got relation. So that depends on my discretion. But now, comparatively, if we study that if we merge into the existence of God, the, at least, in the opinion of the bhaktas, that is not acceptable. That is not acceptable. They know that, that "God has created me as an individual being, so He has got some purpose. And because He has created me for some purpose, I must fulfill that purpose. I must fulfill that purpose."

Now, I can give you another crude example that a, that a, from the mother... Suppose a few children, half a dozen children, has come. Now, what is the intention of the mother? The mother or the father... Mother or father, same thing -- who has taken the responsibility of the children. They, they want to be happy. Otherwise, why people are taking so much trouble, whole day, for, I mean, maintaining their children? There is some happiness. Nobody wants to take so much trouble, but at home, because there is some happiness by seeing the children, by maintaining the children, by..., therefore he takes so much trouble. Now, at the same time, the children has also some troubles of life. Now, if one of the children requests the mother, "Mother, you have given birth to me, and... But I find my life very troublesome. Better you again put me in your belly." (laughs) Is it a good proposal? It is not at all a good proposal. This is a disappointment. "Oh," the mother says, "oh, my dear son, you are in trouble. Therefore you want to come again into my belly? You want to merge into my existence again?" Well, the mother is unable. He cannot, she cannot do that. But if, if such kind of request is made to the Supreme Lord, He can accept that. For Him it is not possible, impossible. "All right, you want to merge into My existence? Come on. Come on. I, I, I take you." But the thing is whether the son who requests the mother or the father like that, he is sane person. The sane son, the intelligent son, will think, "Well, my father and my mother, they have brought up me. They have begotten me. They have given us our life. All right, let us serve our parents. Let them be happy. Our activities so that..." That is the natural way. That is the natural... Because God has created us in so many individual living entities, we are all parts and parcel. Just like father and son or mother and son. Sons are the parts of the body of the mother. The, we get this body from mother's body. That's a fact. Similarly, it is, it... You'll find in Bhagavad-gita also that this material nature is the mother, and the Lord is the father, and the father is giving seed into the womb of the mother, and we have all come out from the... We have got this material body. Similarly, you see?

Now, this point, that to merge into the existence of the Supreme Lord is, if it is proposed by some individual soul or individual living entity, that can be accepted by the Lord, sayujya-mukti... That is not very difficult. But the thing is whether we should think like that, whether it is good for us. That is my choice. If want to merge into... You follow me, what I say? If I want to merge into the existence of God... Just like if your son wants again to merge into your existence, because you are human being, it is not possible for you, but it is not impossible for God. God can accept: "All right, you want to merge into Me. All right, come on. I accept it." So that not impossible. So that merging into the existence of God. There is a liberation like that. But that is not the ultimate. You want to speak something?

Woman: Jnani, you say, means liberation from reading literature.

Prabhupada: Yes, but there are other individuals who... There are other individuals who may not agree with that kind of salvation or liberation. They want to keep their individuality and enjoy the Supreme Personality of Godhead's company. Just like Arjuna. In the Fourth Chapter you will, you will see that Arjuna... When Sri Krsna said to Arjuna that "This system of yoga was first explained to the sun-god, sun-god," now Arjuna inquired, "How is that? You are... You are my contemporary. How You say that You advised or instructed this yoga system to sun? That means crores and crores, I mean, millions and billions of years before. How is that?" This is, mean, a very sane question. Now, in that question the Lord answered, "My dear Arjuna, yourself and Myself, we took birth many times, but you have forgotten. I, I, I have not forgotten."

Now, now, here you see that because Arjuna has taken up that transcendental bliss, that he wants to keep with the company of the Lord. So if anyone wants to keep company with the Lord, he's welcome. There are five different kinds of relation with God: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya... I think I gave you one day...

Woman: Yes. Could you give them by name, the five kinds of liberation? In English?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. I'll give.

Woman: One is with the Lord, we merge, we merge...

Prabhupada: Mergence means... The merging into the existence, this is called sayujya-mukti. Sayujya-mukti.

Woman: No, but in English.

Prabhupada: English, there is... Sayujya, to become one.

Woman: Yes, to become one.

Prabhupada: Sayujya-mukti means liberation by becoming one with the Lord.

Woman: Yes. Okay. What is number two?

Prabhupada: Yes. I'll explain. Yes.

Student: Mukti?

Prabhupada: Mukti means liberation. Mukti means... Now we are in egoistic condition in this material body. Now, mukti means when we shall be liberated from the material existence and we shall get our spiritual life, proper. That is called mukti. Just like a person is suffering from disease, fever. Now, when he, he's out of feverish attack, he's called mukta. Rogya-mukta. Rogya-mukta means he's free from the disease. Similarly, mukti means because we are now encumbered with this material body, as soon as we become free from this material conception of life, that is called mukti. That is called brahma-bhuta. Brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Generally, Dr. Mishra is teaching this, that you, what you think of your, what I am, I am not this body. That is the whole process of his teaching. So we have already discussed. This is same point is being discussed nicely in Bhagavad-gita, that we are not this body. Our material identification is wrong. So we have come to that point, come to that stage, you see, that I am not this body. And because I am not this body, therefore I have no connection with this world -- because my connection with this world is due to my body, is due to my body. I consider one woman my wife because I have got bodily connection. I, I consider somebody my son because bodily connection. I consider this town, this country my country because my body has grown up from this land. So in this way, as soon as one become free from the conception of identification of this body, he becomes a liberated soul. Therefore you'll find in Bhagavad-gita in the later chapters that as soon as one emerges out from this conception, he is prasannatma: "Oh, I have no responsibility. I have no responsibility." Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as he is liberated... Just like a man freed from the attack of fever or any disease, when he's recovered, he finds himself happy: "Oh, now my disease is now gone. I am happy." Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual understanding of our existence, then our life will be joyful. That is a sign. Whether a man is freed from this material existence, mukti... Mukti can be achieved even in this life. Mukti. Mukti. It is, it is, it is a question of conviction. Now we are convinced firmly that "I am this material body. And as soon as... I gave you the other day the example of Socrates. He was convinced that "I am not this body." So he was offered poison. He gladly took it, that "What is that? I shall take it!" Because he was mukta-purusa. It is... He is liberated soul. "Never mind. You want to kill me. Kill me. I don't mind. All right." So this liberation. This is liberation.

Now, this liberation is divided into five. There are five kinds of liberation. One of the liberation is to merge into the existence. We, we, we... Our birth was from the Supreme Absolute. Now, after liberation, we merge into the existence of the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti. Now, besides this sayujya-mukti, there are other five muktis which, we, the Vaisnava sampradaya, or the devotees, the Lord's devotees, they accept. They, they, practically, those who are pure devotees, they do not want any kind of mukti. They do not, even they are offered. They are simply after the service of the Lord. They are prepared to suffer any kind of suffering. They are not affected by all those sufferings. What they want? Pure devotees? They want that "I must serve the Supreme Lord." That is their mission. So anyway, these bhaktas, or the devotees of the Lord, for them there are other four kinds of mukti. And what is that? This is sayujya-mukti, to become one with the... Now, there is... Then sarupya, sarupya-mukti. Sarupya-mukti means the spiritual body becomes as... The features of the spiritual body becomes just like the Supreme Lord. Just like Narayana. Narayana has got four hands with sankha, cakra, gada, padma, and with the lotus flower, conchshell, club and wheel. So, so everyone who takes that sarupya-mukti just become just like the... His feature of the body become just like the Lord. That is called sarupya-mukti.

Woman: That is S, A, R, U...

Prabhupada: S, A, R, U, P, Y, A. Sarupya. Yes. Sarupya. This is called sarupya-mukti. And...

Woman: Mukti, or mukhi?

Prabhupada: Mukti, yes.

Woman: And three?

Prabhupada: And three... The two I have explained, sayujya and sarupya. Then salokya. Salokya. Salokya means you can, one can, get habitation, residence, in the same planet where God is there. That is salokya. And then the next is sarsti. Sarsti. S, A, R, S, T, I, sarsti. Sarsti means to get the same opulence. As I have already explained, opulence, he, he gets all the opulences as the Lord has got. He becomes so..., as good as Lord, becomes so powerful. This is called sarsti. And, and the last is samipya. Samipya means he is always in the company of the Lord. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is always... Whenever Lord takes His incarnation, Arjuna is there. Arjuna is there. Samipya. They are never separated. Just like a husband and wife, never separated. You see. Or the father and the son. Of course, nowadays the question is different, but generally, the family members, they all remain together. Samipya. And the father and the boys and wife and..., they remain together. So there is samipya-mukti. Samipya-mukti means to remain always as associate of the Lord. That is samipya-mukti.

So these five kinds of muktis are there, and the, the purport is that even after liberation, we, the living entities, they keep their individuality. Just like as associate of the Lord, as the resident of the Lord's planet or to have the bodily features of the Lord, in so many ways. And one can merge into the existence of the Lord. That is also accepted. So simply merging into the existence of God, that is not the only liberation. That is one of the liberation. But the, the devotees of the Lord, they do not accept such kind of... They do not want to merge. They want to enjoy the company. That is the difference between... Both of them become liberated. Merging into the existence of God, that is also liberation. And to keep individuality and enjoy the company of the Lord, that is also liberation. Yes?

Woman: Therefore, may I say that the four other ones are what you call the demigods...?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are not liberated.

Woman: They are not liberated?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are just like delegated officers for maintaining this material existence. Just like sun. Sun is a demigod. Sun. The moon.
The moon is a demigod.

Woman: And what about the masters who are working...?

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Woman: The masters who are working the...?

Prabhupada: Master is the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, but there are different masters, or higher degrees that you were calling. You were mentioning before. The sound(?) of different degrees who are working on planets...?

Prabhupada: Yes, different degree. Just like everyone is servant of the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But did you...? That's not what you called...

Prabhupada: Degree. No degrees. Now suppose, suppose, take for example the sun. The chief, chief living entity or the chief man, or chief living being in the sun planet. Now his position and my position, there is vast difference. He has, he is maintaining such a planet and he is situated there as the chief man or the chief living being. So his degree of power is far, far greater than the degree of power here like President Johnson or something else. You see? So that degree of power does not make him that he's God. He's not God. He's also servant of God. Anyone, even Brahma, anyone. There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrta: ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya [Cc. Adi 5.142]. That the individual living entities, there are so many, multi, but all of them, they are servant of the Lord. There may be, their position may be upper or lower in different degrees, but that does not make them equal with the Lord. The Lord is different. That is also mentioned in the Patanjali yoga system. Lord is Supreme. He's the great. He's the greatest. Asamaurdhva. Nobody is equal with Him and nobody is greater than Him. That means nobody's equal with Him, nobody's greater than Him, everybody is lower than Him. So is that question solved?

Woman: Yes. Now you were using very often the name of demigods and therefore I...

Prabhupada: Now demigods, demigods are just like you and me. Demigods, just like you and me. But they have got a degree of power than me and you.
Woman: Now you just said the sun.

Prabhupada: Sun, yes. He's also a living...

Woman: The sun is a planet.

Prabhupada: Sun is a planet, but there is a controlling deity also.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: There is a control... Just like here, in this planet, when you go up, you see it is ball, but in this ball there are so many controlling deities here also. President Johnson, prime minister of India, this and that and so many things. But when you go up you see just like a ball. So when you come here you find... Similarly, from the distance of ninety millions of miles you can see the sun just like a ball, but it is not ball. It is a, it is a far, far greater than this planet, and there are cities and there men and there are persons and there are everything. But they are made up of fire. Their body's made of fire. Your body's made of earth. That is the difference. Just like in the water you cannot live because your body is made differently that you cannot live in the water. Similarly, the aquatics in the water, they cannot live in the land. Similarly, because I cannot live in the sun planet due to this, my body, that does not mean there are no living beings. There are living beings. After all, the whole material world is made of five elements, earth, water, fire, air and ether. Now these five elements, in some planet you'll find earth predominant. In some planet you'll find water predominant. In some planet you'll find fire predominant. In some planet you'll find air predominant. But that does not mean that there are no living entities. There are living entities. The sun planet is a planet where is, where fire is predominant. Now, according to medical science that by heat and fire of the germs are killed. But in the fire also there are living entities. Just like Dr. Mishra was giving the example the other day about opium. Now opium is a death poison. Death poison. But in the opium also you'll find some worms.

Woman: Some what?

Prabhupada: Worms.

Woman: Worms?

Prabhupada: Yes. How it is possible? They are also living entities. If I, if I take a drop of opium, I die. But they are living and they are eating and they are living there. So because it is impossible for me to eat opium and live, you cannot say that there are other livi..., that there cannot be no living entities there. Similarly you have experience that you cannot live in the fire. That does not mean that in the sun planet there is no living entities. There are living entities. Because in Bhagavad-gita you'll find that living soul, as it is, it is not burnt by fire. It is not burned by fire. Because it is spiritual. The material elements has no power to destroy it. It is not burnt by fire. So in every planet it is concluded that every planet there are living entities. There are intelligent beings. And because in the higher planets there are more intelligent persons, beings, they are called demigods. The demigods means they have got, practically, qualification almost equal to the Supreme Lord. They have got such qualification.

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Dee..? Deevas? Devas.

Woman: Devas.

Prabhupada: That is the Sanskrit word. Real deva means the Supreme Lord, and when you call devas... These devas, they are all obedient servant of the Lord. They are very powerful. So when you become obedient devotees of the Lord we can get such post. In the sun planet, in the moon planet, in the heavenly planets, in the Brahma planets. So the devotees of the Lord, they are not loser. They get more power. For controlling power. Therefore they are called devas, devas. Devas means those who are the... There are two words used in Sanskrit, devas and asuras. Asuras. Now the definition of these devas and asuras are like this: visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Asuras tad-viparyayah. Visnu-bhakta. Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devas. This is the difference between devas. Devas, devas and asuras does not mean that asura has got a very ugly face. No. Even a very beautiful man, he can be asura. He can be a... And even a very ugly man, he can be deva. Just like Hanuman. Hanuman was a beast. He was not even man. He was animal. He, he comes from the monkey species of life. But he's a great devotee of Lord Ramacandra. So he's deva. So visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva. Those who are unalloyed devotees of the Lord, they are called devas. And those who are against the obedience of the Lord, they are called asuras. Anyone. It does not mean human being, or the, anyone. But in the higher planets you'll find all the inhabitants there, they're all great devotees of the Lord. Therefore they are called devas, demigods. And therefore they have been entrusted with the management of this material world. Just like confidential persons are given responsible post in government. Similarly, because they are devotees of the Lord they have been awarded this post, to be sun-god, to be moon-god, to be Indra, heavenly god, to Brahma, like that, so many, Marici and so many... You see? Yes?

Woman: Are they working a lot with the vibrations of music?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: With music?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everything is there. Why do you think that only here in this planet everything is there and there is nothing? This is our foolishness. Just like you have never been to India, but...

Woman: Not yet.

Prabhupada: No, no. I am giving you an example. If you think that the Indians, they do not eat, they do not sleep, they do not marry, that is your madness.

Woman: That is my what?

Prabhupada: That is your madness. If you think that Indians do not eat or Indians... Because you have not seen them, but if you... As soon as you know they are also human beings like us... Just like as for my example. When I was in India I was thinking of America something wonderful.

Woman: Then you haven't seen everything yet.

Prabhupada: Now I see here there is not at all any difference. The only difference is that you people are fair complexioned, your bodies are white and they are colored or they are not so white. But there are white men also. In India you'll find varieties of color, beginning from this American, European color down to the black negro color. You find in India. We have so many colors. And actually I give you my frank admission that when I was in India I was thinking the Americans may be of different type of people or they may be thinking in otherwise. They may be... So, so many differences. But here I see there is no difference at all. No difference at all. Only some bodily features. Even I study the pigeons, I see, oh, this same pigeons are here, what, playing just like Indian pigeons. Even I see the sparrow. So there is no difference.

Woman: There is.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: There is. Besides the sparrows, the other birds, as a rule, here in America are bigger than the birds in Europe.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: The same kind of bird are bigger here.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I admit that. I admit that. They are stout and strong. They are stout and strong. Yes. The squirrel, I see. I saw the
squirrel in the park. Oh, they are also bigger.

Woman: They are bigger.

Prabhupada: They are bigger. That is also natural. You see. Just like in African people. They are taller. They are taller than the Aryan people, even in your, this black negroes, they are taller than American people. So there is little difference of course. That is all right. But on the primary facie, prima facie, there is no difference. Similarly, in the sun planet, in the moon planet, there are also human beings like us, and they are called devas because they are high, intellectual. They are all very powerful than ourself, and they have got different bodies with different power and everything. Otherwise, there is no question... Even great scientists like Dr. Meghanatha Sar(?) in India, he, he said that there is no reason to disbelieve that in other planets there is no life. How can you? Just like because you have not seen India you cannot say, "Oh, there, there is no living being. It is vacant." So these people are going to the moon planet. They are saying it is full of dust. It is full of clay, or something like that. All these foolishness. You see? That means they have not reached. Outside they take some photo and they come out.

Woman: They announced today on the radio they've seen a lot of flying saucers.

Prabhupada: Yes. Let them talk all nonsense. But we have got information that this moon planet is a very nice planet, and the inhabitants there, they are very intelligent and the people who perform pious work here in this planet, they are promoted, promoted to the moon planet. And it is very cold also. Just like your European countries and American countries because, due to... You have come from America. America, European countries, people are accustomed to drink because due to the cold climate. Indians are not accustomed. But your drinking is necessary thing in Europe. Similarly, this moon planet is so cold that they live by drinking soma-rasa. There is a kind of liquor which is called soma-rasa. Yes. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa, here, it is described in Ayur-veda. That soma-rasa preparation is there. If anyone can prepare that soma-rasa, and anyone can drink that soma-rasa, he becomes immortal. That means his duration of life increases. Increases. So anyway, these descriptions are there. So there are intelligent living beings there also.

Woman: What kind of bodies do they have?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: What kind of bodies...

Prabhupada: The body may be different. Just like your body is different from me.

Woman: Yes, but we're the same in...

Prabhupada: That does not mean, because you have got a different body, therefore you are not a living being. Or because I have got a different body from you, I am not a living being. So body... Because a living soul is not the body, he might have different body. That doesn't matter; that doesn't matter. Why should we consider, identify with the body? The whole question is there. The body, you'll find your body is different from animal body. Animal is different from human body. Or the so many difference of body. But the four principles of bodily wants, ahara... Ahara means requiring some foodstuff, and nidra, sleeping, and fearing and mating. These four principles you'll find in the birds, in the animals, in the human beings, or even the devatas, or gods, or everywhere you'll find, these four principles. The only difference between the animal and higher, developed consciousness living being is that they are God conscious. They accept the Supreme Lord. That makes the difference between lower animals and others.

I think we will stop here. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- New York, March 9, 1966

"Part 2 The Unavoidable Battle"

66/03/02 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11



So these are opulences: wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation -- six things. Anyone who possess all these six opulences in full, He is God. That is the definition of God. So when Krsna was present on this earth, He showed His opulence, opulences, in full. Opulences in full. Of course, we have got all these historical records about Him. Now, so far His wealth is concerned, He had 16,108 wives. And for each of them, for each of them, He built a palace. And all those palaces were so nicely built that there was no need of electricity or light. It was bedecked with jewels. So day and night, they were blazing. You see? So these description are there. But if we forget that, that He is God, then this will be something like story, that "How a man can marry sixteen thousand wives? How He...?" But we should always remember that He is God. He is all-powerful. And for no other person such historical records are there, only for Krsna. So in strength also nobody could conquer Him. And beauty... So far beauty is concerned, when He was on the battlefield... Have you seen any picture of Krsna? Have you seen? Oh, no. Any one of you have seen Krsna? Krsna, when He was present in the battle, Battlefield of Kuruksetra, at that time He was about ninety years old. Ninety years old. He had His great-grandchildren. He married sixteen thousand wives, and each wife had ten children. And those ten children, they also got, each, ten, twelve children. And they had children also. Because He was at that time ninety years old, He got at that time great-grandchildren also. So His family was very great. Now, if you see the picture of Krsna, you'll see Him just like a boy of twenty-two, twenty-five years old. He was so beautiful. He was so beautiful. Then... That is the sign of God. It is stated in Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. He is the original person. Because from God everyone has born, therefore He is the original person, adyam. Purana-purusam. Purana means the oldest person. Still, nava-yauvanam ca. Whenever you will see God... That is the... This is the sign of God. You'll find Him just like a youth, a new youth. Youthfulness means, say, sixteen to twenty-four years. So nava-yauvanam ca. That is the sign of God. So He was so beautiful that when He was a boy of fifteen years old His, the whole, I mean, of His, of the same age girls, girls of His age, they were after Him. He was so beautiful. So in beauty He was superexcellent. In wealth He was superexcellent. In strength He was superexcellent. And in knowledge...

Now, here is a book, Bhagavad-gita. Now, apart from other books, other knowledge which He imparted to other..., now, here is a book which was imparted to Arjuna. Now, it is so, the depth of knowledge..., that people are still considering, great, great scholars. We are not reading, but Dr. Radhakrishnan, one of the greatest scholars of the world -- now he is the president of India -- he is discussing. Professor Einstein, he was living here in America. He was a German Jew, and I think he was living in America. He was a great student of this Bhagavad-gita. Hitler. Hitler was a great student of Bhagavad-gita. And there were many scholars still reading Bhagavad-gita, trying to understand. Just see what best depth of knowledge He has given. It is made by Krsna. So in knowledge, in wealth, in strength, in beauty, and in everything He was opulent. Therefore He is Bhagavan. You cannot accept any ordinary man as Bhagavan. So therefore Bhagavan. Now, bhagavan uvaca. And because He has been accepted as the spiritual master... Just like a teacher has the right to sometimes rebuke the student, so in the first instance He is rebuking Arjuna in the following words that

asocyan anvasocas tvam
prajna-vadams ca bhasase
gatasun agatasums ca
nanusocanti panditah
[Bg. 2.11]

that "Arjuna, you are speaking just like a very great, learned man, but you are... You are... In other words, you are a fool. You do not know how things are going on because panditah, those who are learned men, they would not have lamented just like you are doing." That means indirectly He says... Panditah means learned. Learned man does not lament over a dead body or a living body. Gatasun agatasums ca. Asun means life. One has lost his life. And one has got his life, a body, living body and a dead body, living body and a dead body. Just mark the point, that "A learned man... As you are lamenting over the subject of killing your friends and relatives, but a learned man would not have lamented like this. That means you are a fool." When He says... Just like if I say, "Mr. Green, what you have done, any intelligent man should not have done this." So this is indirectly saying that "You are not intelligent." It is in a gentleman's way, speaking that "Mr. Green, what you are doing, no intelligent man can do this." That means "You are not intelligent." So here He say that "You are lamenting over the bodies of your relatives because in the fight you are considering that 'My friends and my relatives will be killed,' so that means they are living bodies, and you are lamenting over the, over their killing. So this sort of lamentation is never done by a learned man. A learned man never does it." Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah [Bg. 2.11]. "Those who are learned, one who is learned, he does not lament over the body, either a living body or dead body. There is no question of..." Now, because one who knows the distinction between the body and the soul, firmly con... Just like you have heard the name of Socrates. Soc..., a great philosopher, Greek philosopher. He believed in the immortality of soul. So he was punished in the court. Hemlock. Hemlock was offered to him, that "All right, if you believe the immortality of soul, then you drink this hemlock poison." So he drunk because he was firmly convinced that "Even if I drink this poison... My body will be destroyed, but by destruction of my body, I am not going to be destroyed." He was convinced. So he did not lament. So a pandita, learned man, must know that this body and soul, the distinction, the difference between body and soul... The body is not soul, and the soul is not body, and one who knows, he is learned man. This instruction is given first. So for spiritual advancement this first knowledge, that the body and the soul is different... This body cannot be identified with the soul. You see? The soul is there, but body is not soul. Body is not soul. So every learned man knows it, and we should be...I think we can stop here.

Prabhupada: So Krsna is, in this sen..., He's identified, that bhagavan. Bhagavan means that nobody can surpass His knowledge. Because I have already given the definition of bhagavan, that a personality who is in full, all the opulences -- wealth, strength, fame and knowledge, beauty and renunciation -- He is God. You see? So... Now, in this, at the present moment, when people are godless, I think, this definition is convincing. If you find out a personality that, one who has got in full all these opulences, He is God. Then it will be very difficult to present an ordinary man as God. You see? You'll find that in the Bhagavad-gita, when Arjuna was convinced that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead... But because in future others will have doubt about Krsna, he requested Krsna that "Will You show me Your universal form?" And Krsna agreed and showed him the universal form. That means in future any intelligent man, accepting a so-called God, may also ask him, "Just show something, that you are God." Without showing something, simply by false advertisement, one cannot be God. So whole mistake is that we do not know what is God. We consider God may be just like one of us. No. The God who is controlling such a huge affairs of universal administration, He cannot be, He is superconscious. That is superconsciousness.

Now, here, asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. Now, the whole living existence is a very subtle thing. Now, this body, this body made of earth, water, fire, air, sky, this gross body; and behind this, there is another subtle body. That is mind, intelligence and ego. So when we give up this gross body, that subtle body carries me to another gross body. So when this, this body is lifeless, that body, subtle body, is not lifeless. Just like at night, when this gross body is asleep, the subtle body works. Therefore we dream. So subtle body carries to next life. And I have given in the introduction that how one man changes his body. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Now, the subtle body, I mean to say, mind, intelligence and ego, when these three things, psychic life, is absorbed in a certain kind of thought, the dying man gets a similar body in the next life. The, that we shall come when we make progress in the study of Bhagavad-gita. Just like the air passing over the rose tree carries the flavor of the rose, and the air passing over a filthy place carries the flavor of that filthy place -- the air is pure, but because it is passing over certain conditions, it carries the flavor -- similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego carries the flavor of our present activities to the next life. That is the subtle mystery of transmigration of the soul from one body to another. Now, if this, this life we purify just like rose, then next life we shall get a body which is full of flavor. If, if, if in this life, if we practice devotion of God, then next life is to become the associate of God. That cintamani-prakara-sadmasu... We are transferred to that planet. You see? These are simple things. The whole thing is in my hand. If I want to be degraded, I can prepare myself in this life for such degradation in the next life. And if we want to elevate ourself to the highest perfection of life, as to become one of the associates of God, we can prepare ourself like that. You'll find in the, in the advanced chapters, that yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Now, we are trying to go to the moon planet. Now, here, in this life, if cultivate ourself for the same thought, the moon planet... That means the moon planet, about moon planet, we have to hear, and we have to think that "I shall go in such and such place." Unless you hear, you cannot abide here. Just like our friend, Mr. Cohen, he has left for California. Now, so far I am concerned, I have no idea of California. Now, he has told me that after reaching there, he'll write about the description of the place. Now, suppose if, reading that description of the place, I think of going there, so I prepare myself, "Oh, I must go there." So just like I, I was describing that cintamani-dhama [Bs. 5.29], what sort of trees are there. And you were very much pleased that "I must go there." So we have to hear. Unless we hear what sort of God He is, what sort of God's place is, what is the mode of life there, we cannot be attracted. We cannot be attracted.

So here they say that gatasun agatasums ca. There are two, two sort of bodies in which we are now entered. Now, suppose this gross body appears to be now dead and gone, stopped, but one must know that subtle body has carried him to another body. So subtle body is not lost life. The life is there. So here Krsna says that either of the gross body or of... Subtle body has to be also left. When you get liberation, when you get liberation, that subtle body, that egoistic life, has also to be left. Now, at any condition, the body has to be left. So why one should cry for this body? Therefore Krsna says that "A learned man does not lament over this body." The whole question, that a soul is different from this body, the whole question is solved in one verse. You see? Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah [Bg. 2.11]. "One who is actually learned, he does not, he has no concern of this body. He's concerned with the activities of the soul. So you are speaking of so many things that 'If these, my friends, die, the, I mean to say, their wives will become widow.' These are all... According to the bodily relation, you are speaking. And you are posing yourself just like a very learned man, but you are a fool number one because your whole conception is on the body. Your whole conception of argument with Me was on the body, but you are, you are posing himself just as if you are very learned man." So anyone who has got conception, the identification of this body, he's not a learned man. He's a fool. He may be, in the calculation of academic education, he may be B.A., M.A., Ph.D., DAC, or something like, doctors and..., but if he has got his identification with this body, he's not a learned man according to Bhagavad-gita. Not only according, according to whole Vedic literature. This is the first instruction. This is the... If we want to make progress towards spiritual advancement of knowledge, this preliminary knowledge we must have, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." This is the preliminary standing of spiritual knowledge. This is not advancement. This is simply A-B-C-D, ABCD of spiritual life. In the Bhagavata there is a very nice verse in this connection in which it is stated, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. Kunape means this bag, this bag made of three elements. Now, according to Ayurvedic medical system, this body is made of three elements: kapha, pitta, vayu.

Woman: Three elements?

Prabhupada: Yes. Kapha. Kapha means cold, coldness.

Woman: Common.

Prabhupada: Cough, cough, what do you call cough? Coughing. Yes. Kapha, pitta, vayu: "coldness, heat and air." Yes. Only these three things constitute this body. Therefore it is called a bag made of three elements: coldness, air and fire, heat. Heat, coldness and air -- this body's made.

Woman: What, what does coldness stand for?

Prabhupada: Coldness, you can take it for water, or secretion.

Woman: Water.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: Yes. Water, fire and air.

Prabhupada: Water, fire and air.

Woman: That's better.

Prabhupada: Now, the Bhagavata says that yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: [SB 10.84.13] "If anyone, he's identified with this body made of water, air and fire..." And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. This is a body made of three things. Now... And sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And if one thinks the issues, the by-products of this body as his own kinsmen..." Just like my children, my wife, my relatives, my father, my mother, my brother, my nation, my society -- everything is due to this bodily relation. And there are thousands of women loitering in the street of New York, and suppose I have got some ma..., bodily connection with you, I call you my wife. And because I have got bodily relation with you, all the children produced by you, they are my children. You see? So whole thing is... The basic principle is wrong, that "I am this body." Now, from the expansion of the body, the whole thing, the whole thing is false. Because I am not this body, so my expansion of body is also not I am. But whole world is going on on this false impression. The whole world is going on. The fight, the fighting between one nation and another nation -- because due to this body. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. "One who is identified with this body, which is made of water, fire and, water, fire and air, and the issues from this body as kinsmen and own men..." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dha.., sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And," I mean to say, "attachment, attachment for such issues..." And bhauma-ijya-dhih: "And the land from which this body has grown up, that is worshipable." Now everybody is fighting for the land. "Oh, we are Indian." "We are Pakistani." "We are Vietnamese." "We are Americans." "We are German." The fighting, so much fighting is going on. The land, for the land. So land, land has become worshipable, so worshipable that one is sacrificed his valuable life for that land. You see? But the land is so dear, why? This body has become grown up from this land. So that is also there, the bodily connection.

So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. In the land... They have no meaning for God. Now, the Russian philosophy, they have no meaning for God, but they have every meaning for their land, for the land. So land has been identified as worshipable, and they're prepared to sacrifice anything for the land. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: "One who is identified with this body and one who thinks the bodily offshoots as his own men, and the land from which the body has grown as worshipable," yat-tirtha-buddhih salile.

Yat-tirtha-buddhih salile. Now, in Christian world also, that the water of the Jordan River is sacred is considered. Similarly, Hindus also, when they go to some pilgrimage, they take bath on the sacred river. But one should know that going to the sacred place does not mean simply to take bath in that water. Real meaning of going to a sacred place -- to find out some intelligent scholar in spiritual knowledge. They are living there. To make association with them, to take knowledge from them -- that is the purpose of going to pilgrimage. Because in pilgrimage, holy places... Just like I, my residence is at Vrndavana. So at Vrndavana there are many great scholars and saintly persons living. So one should go to such holy places not simply to take bath in the water, but he must be intelligent enough to find out some spiritually advanced man living there and take instruction from him and (be) benefited by that. But he does not go. He takes simply bath and purchases some goods and advertises, "Oh, I have been to such and such pilgrimage." Well... yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13] and yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu: "He has the attachment for pilgrimage, for taking bath only, but he has no attraction for the learned people there." You see?

So such kind of man is considered as ass. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-khara. Go-khara. Go means cow or..., and khara means ass. So practically the whole world is moving as the civilization of cow and asses because the whole thing is identification with this... The center is this body, and expansion of the body, the attraction, whole attraction is there. Yes? You want to...?

Woman: Yes. In the Indian places known as sacred places...

Prabhupada: Sac... Yes.

Woman: ...isn't ...sacred places...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: ...isn't it also a fact that there is more magnetism there because of the meeting of...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Woman: ...saints and more people...?(?)

Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Therefore the place itself has got some magnetism. You see?

Woman: Yes. And when...

Prabhupada: Just like at Vrndavana, at Vrndavana... That is practical. Now here I am sitting, New York, a very great, the world's greatest city, so magnificent city, but my heart is always hankering after that Vrndavana.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. I am not happy here.

Woman: Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: I shall be very happy to return to my Vrndavana, that sacred place. "But then why you are...?" Now, because it is my duty. I have brought some message for you people. Because I am ordered by superior, my spiritual master, that "Whatever you have learned, you should go to the Western countries, and you must distribute this knowledge." So in spite of all my difficulties, all my inconveniences, I am here because I am in duty. I, I... That is my personal convenience, if I go and sit down at Vrndavana, I shall be very comfortable there. And I'll be, I'll have no anxiety, nothing of the sort. You see? But I have taken all the risk in the old age because I am in duty-bound. I am in duty-bound. So I have to execute my duty in spite of all my inconveniences. That is the idea.

So this is the whole thing, the whole basic principle of spiritual advancement of knowledge. One should first be convinced that he is not this body. He is not this body. Then other spiritual knowledge will begin. This is the basic principle. You'll find it. You'll find it in the Bhagavad-gita that this situation of spiritual life is called brahma-bhutah. Brahman. So

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

So the, unless one understands himself, he also cannot understand God also. In his, in his misunderstanding position... Now, what Dr. Mishra is teaching is very nice because he is teaching that "Just first of all you know 'What I am, what I...' " That's very good. But that "what I am" can be known from the Bhagavad-gita also, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." That knowledge, at least theoretically, one must accept, that "I am not this body." Now Krsna is describing that what is the position. I am not this body. That's all right. Now, actually, what we are? What we are? I'm not body. That's all right. Then what we are? Now, the next, next version is Krsna... We must always know that Krsna... Here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca means that He has got so extensive knowledge that there cannot be any mistake. He's authority. He's authority. So whatever He says is right. Is right. That is the conception of bhagavan. Here it is not said, Krsnah uvaca. Because somebody may doubt Krsna, that "Krsna was a historical personality. Why you should be so much concerned with Krsna?" as is general view. But here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. And I have given you the definition of Bhagavan, that He is all knowledge. So whatever He will speak, Bhagavan, there cannot be any mistake. For ordinary persons, there are four, I mean to say, difficulties, four imperfectness. Just like we are ordinary man. We have got four imperfectness. What is that imperfectness? That we must commit mistake. We must commit mistake. Our constitutional position at the present moment is such that we are sure to commit mistake. Even greatest politician like Gandhi, he committed mistake, and so many great men, they committed mistake. "To err is human," therefore, it is called, that any, any man, however he may be great in the estimation of this world, he is sure to commit mistake. And another imperfection is that he is illusioned.
Woman: Illusioned.

Prabhupada: Illusioned. Now, illusioned you can see. Illusioned means taking one thing for another. That is called illusion. Just like in the desert, accepting the sand as water. That is called illusion. Similarly, every one of us who are identified with this body, he's under illusion. That is a false thing, but he has no knowledge. Even President Johnson, he's under illusion. Even the greatest scientist, he's under this illusion. So that, one is sure to commit mistake, and one is under illusion, and bhrama, pramada and vipralambhana... Vipralambhana means the tendency for cheating.

Woman: That is the fourth?

Prabhupada: That is the third. First is that one is sure to commit mistake, one is sure to be in illusion, and one is adapted to cheat others. Now, he is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. That is cheating. Everyone is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. Then you can ask that "You are also giving us knowledge?" No, I am not giving you knowledge. I am speaking Bhagavad-gita. I am giving you knowledge as given by Lord Krsna. It is not my knowledge.

Woman: But this is own interpretation.

Prabhupada: Eh? Not interpretation. It is reading.

Woman: One can cheat.

Prabhupada: I give you... Cheat. No, that is also in the definition of a conditioned soul. These four principles are there. It is not my manufactured thing. The, these are information from authoritative scripture, that a conditioned soul has four imperfectness. One imperfectness is that he's sure to commit mistake. He's illusioned, and he has got a tendency to cheat, and, above all, his senses are imperfect. So anyone who is above all these four imperfectness -- who never commits mistake, who is never illusioned, who never cheats others, and who has got perfect senses -- He is God.

Prabhupada: Now, the next question is that the Mayavadi philosophers, they say that "Because I am now covered in ignorance, therefore I see individuals." Yes.

Woman: Is that a main claim?(?)

Prabhupada: Yes. My... This individual experience that you are Mr. Such and Such, you are Mr. Such and Such, you are Mrs. Such and Such, this individual experience, is due to my ignorance. And generally, they give the example of a disease. I think it is called, medical terms, myopia. Myopia means they see this moon in two. The eyes become so defective that whenever they see things, they see two.

Woman: No, that's astigmatism.

Prabhupada: Uh, yes.

Woman: Myopia is when you have to see very near.

Prabhupada: I said... It may not be myopia, but some disease.

Woman: Astigmatism. Some sees, if somebody sees...

Prabhupada: Yes. Sometimes...

Woman: Astigmatism. In two, if somebody sees. Astigmatism.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: In two. Is it a sickness?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is sickness.

Woman: In the eyes.

Prabhupada: Because, because the thing is one, but due to my disease of the eye, I see one thing, two. That is a disease. There is a disease like that. So...

Woman: Usually people who drink.

Prabhupada: Anyway, that's an abnormal condition. In abnormal condition sometimes we can see one thing into two, divided into two. So now that ignorance, you cannot apply to Krsna because He's all-perfect. And if He is not all-perfect, then there is no value of His instruction. A man with defect in knowledge cannot impart instructions. His instructions... Therefore the whole Vedic process is parampara system. Parampara system means that I cannot deviate. I cannot make any interpretation. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. You'll find in the Fourth Chapter. Now we are reading Second Chapter. You'll find, as we have explained in the introduction of Bhagavad-gita, that because... Just like I am speaking to you. I am an imperfect person. I cannot give you any knowledge. I cannot manufacture any knowledge. If I do that, then I shall deceive you. I can simply present before you the original knowledge. I can explain it in an understandable way but not deviating from the original text. Now, here it is clearly stated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead that na tu eva aham jatu [Bg. 2.12]. Aham. Aham means Sri Krsna Himself. Now sometimes we make some grammatical jugglery of words, but I cannot understand. Now, aham, "myself," when I speak aham, or "myself," is applicable to me. When you speak, the aham is applicable to you. But that does not mean because there is a common understanding of myself between you and me, therefore I... Now that I and you become one. When you speak, you say, "I speak." When I say, I say, "I speak." That does not mean this "I" and that "I" becomes one. So Sri Krsna says like that, na tu aham.

Woman: Ah, yes.

Prabhupada: He. That means this aham, Sri Krsna. And na tvam: "And you." That means Arjuna. And na ime janadhipah: "Neither all these kings." He's dividing the whole audience into three: "Myself, yourself and they." And again He confirms it, sarve: "all." He never identifies into one. So this is the version of Sri Krsna. Now, if I say that our interpretation of aham, I, myself, yourself, and he, or she, different vision, this is due to our ignorance. You can say. Because I am ignorant, it may be my mistake, that I see differently from you. But Sri Krsna, Lord Sri Krsna, cannot see like that. He is above all this ignorance because He's all-perfect. And we have already defined that the Supreme Lord is full of knowledge. So... He's full of knowledge, supreme knowledge. Now, if the Supreme Personality, with full knowledge... He cannot commit any mistake.

Woman: No.

Prabhupada: How can He commit any mistake? Then there is no meaning of full knowledge. If you are in full knowledge, then how you can commit mistake? So this ignorance of duality, because they say that "We see two because it is due to our ignorance. All, everything is one," but here you cannot apply that ignorance to Sri Krsna. Otherwise, His instruction of whole Bhagavad-gita, which is so importantly taken by all authorities, all scholars, then it is at once rejected. If it is supposed that Sri Krsna was also to commit mistake, or He was in imperfect knowledge, then whole thing becomes rejected. So it is not, not like that.

So Sri Krsna, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He's in full knowledge, and therefore as He says that "Either Myself or yourself or all these persons, kings and soldiers, who are assembled here, they're all individuals. In the past they were individuals, in the present we are individuals, and in the future they will continue to be individuals." Now, one thing... Suppose another argument is that due to ignorance... Just like an animal. It thinks that there is water in the desert, on the reflec...

Woman: What?

Prabhupada: Water in the desert. Now, in the desert, due to sun's reflection... You might have experienced in the street also, during blazing sun. It appears like water. Now, that animal, because it has no knowledge, it is, I mean to say, flying towards water in the desert. Although there is no water. But a sane man like you and me, or a human being, he knows that there is no water. There is no water. So this direction, that there is water, this mistake is committed by the animal because he, it has no sufficient knowledge. But one, a human being who has got sufficient knowledge, he does not commit that mistake. Yes.

Woman: Does an animal make that mistake? I thought the animals...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: ...wouldn't, would, uh...

Prabhupada: No, no. This is a...

Woman: ...not see the water that our eyes tell us that there is a mirage in the desert.

Prabhupada: Yes. I mean to say, any sane man who has got the knowledge that "This is only reflection of the sun; it is not water," he will never go there. He knows that it is useless to search water in the desert. Similarly, if Sri Krsna is in full knowledge, He cannot say that in future also we shall all remain individuals. He says that in the future also we shall continue to be individuals. Now, He cannot give us misdirection. Suppose we, in the future we shall not remain. After liberation, we shall not become, remain, individuals. Then that sort of misguidance cannot be given by Sri Krsna. Just like a sane man cannot direct you that "Just go there. There is water in the desert." A man with perfect knowledge cannot give you that direction. A animal may go there. That is a different thing. Similarly, when Sri Krsna says that "In future also, we, all these, yourself, Myself, and all these, they will keep their individuality," so that is not a misdirection. You want to say anything?

Woman: Sure. But is that what the Bhagavad-gita's saying on...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: ...I mean (being?) a lot to it? (?)

Prabhupada: Yes. It is, it is... I'll, I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you the exact meaning. Na tu eva aham: "Neither Myself." Aham means "myself." Jatu. Jatu means "at any time." At any time means present, past, future. Jatu kadacit. Kadacit means "at any time." Nasam: "Not that we did not exist." So na tvam. So this aham, "myself and yourself," na ime, "neither these janadhipah, all these kings." Now, this plural: "Myself," first person, "yourself," second person, "and these janadhipah," third person. Na caiva na bhavisyamah: "It is not that in future also we shall not exist like this, Myself, yourself and all these." You see? Sarve. Now, here it is called sarve. They never becomes one. Sarve means all, plural number. Here means janadhipah. "As they are now plural numbers, Myself, yourself, and they, similarly, in future also, we shall remain like that. We shall remain like that." Sarve vayam atah param: "After this." This is the clear version of number -- you can note down -- number twelve verse of the Second Verse, er, Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11 -- New York, March 2, 1966

"Part 1 The Unavoidable Battle"

66/03/02 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11


Prabhupada: Now Arjuna is perplexed. He is perplexed in the matter, whether to fight or not to fight. That was his perplexity. After seeing his relatives in front of him, with whom he was to fight, he was perplexed. And there was some argument also with Krsna. Krsna, of course, did not encourage him. Now, here is a point, that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. What is that?

Young man: What?

Prabhupada: What is this book?

Young man: Well, this is the, the, the translation to the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Well, no, you can hear me.

Young man: I am hearing. I am hearing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Don't turn your attention. Just hear me. Krsna, although He is present there, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but still, He did not encourage him. From worldly point of view, when somebody says that "I'll... I give it up. I don't want it. I don't want to fight with my friends or my relatives. Better let them enjoy. I shall forego my claim," from worldly point of view, this is a very, I mean, gentlemanly behavior, that one is foregoing his claim for the matter of his relatives or friends. But Krsna is not encouraging that proposal. We have to mark it. Krsna is not encouraging. Krsna is rather... Krsna is, rather, inducing Arjuna that "It is not a very good proposal. It is not befitting your position. You belong to the Aryan family. You belong to the ksatriya, royal family. And you are denying to fight? No, no, this is not good. And I am your friend. I have taken the responsibility of your chariot driver, and, if you do not fight, what people will say?" So He is not encouraging. Just see.

Now, here is a good proposal from the worldly point of view that Arjuna does not want to fight, and Krsna is not encouraging him. Now, what is the point? Somebody may say that "Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, why He is encouraging in the matter of fighting?" People, at the present moment, when there is a question of war, people want to stop that war. At the present moment, the movement is going on between all nations that they do not want war. But here we see that Krsna is not discouraging war. We have to mark this point. He is not discouraging war, but He is, rather, advocating, inducing Arjuna that "No, no, no, this is not befitting your position. You must fight, must fight."

So here is a point, that sometimes we may do something which is approved by the general public, but it may not be approved by the supreme authority. Superficially it may appear very appealing to the sentiment of the public, but factually such thing may not be correct, may not be correct. If we accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and "Why He was inducing Arjuna to fight?" It does not mean that He was inducing Arjuna to do something wrong. But from worldly point of view, Arjuna was a very pious man and he was declining to fight, not to kill his kinsmen, not to kill his friends. This... This is a very important point. So he argued, "No, no, if I fight, my people will die, and their wives will become widow, and they will be adulterated, and then, by adulteration, unwanted population will increase, and who will offer sraddha?" Sraddha... There is a ceremony of sraddha according to Hindu scripture. I do not know whether you have in your Christian religion, but according to Hindu, a dead body is offered some respect every year. Just like death anniversary observed, similarly, in the family, the descendants, they offer some foodstuff after some religious ceremony. That is called sraddha. And it is believed that that offering goes to the dead forefathers. So that is a family religious ceremony. So Arjuna said that "These people will die. Who will offer that ablution to the forefathers?" So from ordinary point of view, from the point of view of a family man, he argued with Krsna in so many ways. And after, at the end, he decided that "I cannot fight. I cannot fight." Then Krsna tried to induce him, and he said that "Yes, whatever You are saying, that I am a ksatriya and I am not doing my duty, this is all right, but My mind is perplexed." So he was at the same time conscious that Sri Krsna only can make a solution of this perplexity. So he said,

karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah
prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah
yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me
sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam
[Bg. 2.7]

Karpanya-dosa. Karpanya-dosa means a miserly man, miserly man. He was conscious of the fact that he was a great hero, he was a great fighter, and, at the same time, the enemies were there. So his actual duty was to fight with the enemy. They were offering fight. For a ksatriya there are some obligations. If somebody challenges that "I want to fight with you," a ksatriya cannot deny. If somebody challenges, "Yes, I want to bet with you, gambling," a ksatriya cannot deny. And for that reason, the Pandavas lost their kingdom. The other side, his cousins, offered them, that "All right, let us come to betting." So betting, the bid was they offered the kingdom. "Now, if you, if you," I mean to say, "defeated, if you are defeated, then you lose your kingdom." So they lost their kingdom. Then the next, next offer was that "If you are defeated, you lost your wife." So they lost their wife. And similarly, they were put: "Now, this time, if you are defeated, you have to go to the forest for twelve years." So there was a great plan behind them, and the Pandavas were defeated in so many ways, and they were harassed, embarrassed for not less than twenty years. And now they were to fight, face to face. Now he is not prepared to fight. That means he has become miserly, mean he is deviating from his duty. Now. So he is conscious that "Practically, I am deviating from my duty." Karpanya-dosa: "This is my miserly behavior." Dosa. Dosa means "It is a fault on my part. I should not have deviated from this fighting, but my sentiment does not allow me to fight with my kinsmen." So here is a perplexity. So karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah, dharma-sammudha-cetah: [Bg. 2.7] "Not only I am miserly, but I am deviating from my duty, dharma." Dharma. This dharma means, according to different position... Just like brahmana, the intellectual society; the ksatriyas, the administrator society; the vaisyas, the mercantile society; and the sudras. Sudras means the laborer class. So these four divisions are always. Now you can name in a different way. That doesn't matter. But in every society and for all time these divisions are there. So according to Vedic system, this system is observed by generation. So he was a ksatriya. Now, ksatriya's duty was to fight with the enemy, and he was not executing that, I mean to say, injunction. Therefore, he is conscious that dharma-sammudha-cetah: [Bg. 2.7] "Oh, I am deviating from my religion also. It is the duty of ksatriya. No. So I am now perplexed." So yac chreyah syan niscitam: "Now You should kindly, definitely say." Now, here is a position: "I do not understand what is to be done. You kindly..." Yac chreyah syan niscitam. Niscitam means definitely what is right. Bruhi tan me. Now Krsna can say, "Well, I have already saying you that you should fight, but you are not carrying out the order." So he says that sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. So he accepted that "All right, whatever arguments we have done so far, let us forget that. Now I accept You as my spiritual master, not my friend."

Now, the idea of accepting spiritual master, that is also very obligatory. You see? As soon as you accept one as the spiritual master. First of all, we have recorded in your... You have heard it, that acceptance of spiritual master must be selected, you see, after careful examination, just like one selects his bride or bridegroom after careful examination. And in India they are very careful because the marriage of the boys and girls take place under the guidance of the parents. So the parents very carefully see. So similarly, if one has to... The acceptance of spiritual master is necessary. According to Vedic injunction, one, everyone, should have a spiritual master. Perhaps you have seen a sacred thread. We have got sacred thread. Mister Cohen, you have... This kind of... Sacred thread. That sacred thread is the sign that this person has his spiritual master, has a spiritual master. Just like... Here, of course, there is no such distinction. A married girl... And according to Hindu system, they have got some sign so that people can understand, "This girl is married." They put on a red, I mean to say, painting here so that others know that "This girl is married." And, according to, what is called this? The division of the hair? What is this line? You call?

Young man: Part.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Young man: Part.

Prabhupada: What is the spelling?

Young man: To part!

Prabhupada: To part. This parting, this parting is also... There is some meaning. When the parting is here, in the middle, then that girl has her husband and she is coming from respectable family. And if the, I mean to say, partition is here, then she is a prostitute. You see? A prostitute cannot... There was king's ruling that a prostitute cannot (laughs) part here. And then again, when a girl is well dressed, it should be considered that she has got her husband at home. And when she is not well dressed, then it should be understood that her husband is out of home. You see? And a widow's dress... There are so many. There are symptoms. So similarly, this thread, sacred thread, is a sign that this person has accepted somebody as his spiritual master. He has got his... Just like this red mark symbolizes that "This girl has her husband," similarly, this sacred thread is the symbol that "This man has got his spiritual master." So there is a ceremony. You see? So according to Vedic system, one has to accept a spiritual master in order to make a solution of his life. In every step of his life the spiritual master guides him. He also makes question to the spiritual master and he guides him so that he will, his life, his progress of life, may be systematic.

Now, to take such guidance means the spiritual master should also be a very perfect man. Otherwise, how can he guide? Now, here Arjuna knows that Sri Krsna is the perfect person. So therefore he is accepting Him as sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "I am just surrendering unto You, You self, Yourself, and You accept me as Your disciple because friendly talks cannot make a solution of the perplexity." Friendly talks may be going on for years together, but there is no solution. Here, accepting Krsna as the spiritual master means whatever Krsna will decide, he has to accept. One cannot deny the order of a spiritual master. Therefore one has to select a spiritual master whose order, carrying, you'll not commit a mistake. You see? Now, suppose if you accept a wrong person as spiritual master, and if you, if he guides you wrongly, then your whole life is spoiled. So one has to accept a spiritual master whose guidance will make his life perfect. That is the relation between spiritual master and disciple. It is not a formality. It is a great responsibility both for the disciple and for the spiritual master. And... Yes?

Young man (2): But if the disciple is in ignorance before...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Young man (2): ...how does he know which master to choose? I mean, because he doesn't have the knowledge...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Young man (2): ...to make a wise selection.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. So the first thing is that one should be searching after a disciple, er, or searching after a spiritual master. Now, just like you search after some school. You search after some school. So when you are searching after some school, you must have at least some preliminary knowledge what a school means. You cannot search after a school and go to a cloth shop. If you are so ignorant that you do not know what is a school and what is a cloth shop, then it is very difficult for you. You must know, at least, what is a school. So that knowledge is like this: tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. The spiritual master is required for a person who is inquisitive to have transcendental knowledge. He requires a spiritual master. You see? So there is another verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam: tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta: "One should search after a spiritual master who is inquisitive about transcendental subject matter." So unless one is at least conversant with the preliminary knowledge of transcendental matters... That transcendental matter here you can see. Arjuna is perplexed, and now he wants a definite answer. This is the inquiry about transcendental subject matter. So every human being has to inquire. The inquiry must be there. What is that inquiry? That inquiry is that, preliminary, that every human being is suffering. A ignorant man... Just like a cat and dog or an animal. They are suffering, but they do not understand. Suffering they do not understand. Just like we have seen... Of course, here animals are slaughtered in slaughterhouse. In, according to Hindu system, of course, cow killing is not allowed. But there are meat-eaters. So according to Hindu system, if anyone wants to eat meat, he should take a goat. According to Hindu system, only goats and lambs can be killed for meat-eating, no other animals, no other animals. Cow is not... forbidden. Just like, in, in, the Hindus, they do not eat cow's flesh. And the Muslims, they do not eat, I mean to say, hogs. Hog's flesh they do not eat. They have got some sentiment. But meat-eating is also there in the Hindu society, but that is only by goat's meat or lamb's meat, generally goat. Generally goat. Now, these goats are sacrificed before a goddess Kali, Goddess Kali. So I have seen it, that one animal is being killed, slaughtered, and the, another animal, which will be slaughtered next, he's... It has been given some grass, and it is standing there. You see? It has no knowledge that "My next turn is mine," so it is not going away. So this is animal. This is animal. A human, human being, is not so fool. If there is sign that "Next time my killing is to be taken up," then he... At least he will protest or try to go away, something like that. But there is no such thing. So the distinction between animal and man is that that animal is not aware of the sufferings he is undergoing. There are sufferings both for the animals and for the man, but man is conscious. If a man is not awakened to his suffering, then he is in animal consciousness.

We should not forget that we are always under suffering. There are three kinds of sufferings. I don't say about this economic problem or... That is also another suffering. But according to Vedic knowledge -- or it is a fact -- there are three kinds of suffering. One kind of suffering belonging to the body and the mind... Now, suppose I am getting some headache. Now I am feeling very warm, I am feeling very cold, and so many bodily sufferings there are. Similarly, we have got sufferings of the mind. My mind is not well today. I have been... Somebody has called me something. So I am suffering. Or I have lost something or some friend, so many things. So sufferings of the body and mind, and then sufferings by the nature, nature. This is called adhidaivika, which we have to control. In every suffering we have no control, especially... Suppose there is heavy snowfall. The whole New York City is flooded with the snow, and we are all put into inconvenience. That's a sort of suffering. But you have no control. You cannot stop snow falling. You see? If some, some, there is wind, cold wind, you cannot stop it. This is called adhidaivika suffering. And the suffering of the mind and suffering of the body is called adhyatmika. And there is other sufferings, adhibhautika, attack by other living beings, my enemy, some animal or some worm, so many. So these three kinds of sufferings are there always. Always. And... But we do not want all these sufferings. When this question comes... Now here Arjuna is conscious that "There is a fight, and it is my duty to fight with the enemy, but there is suffering because they are my kinsmen." So he's feeling that. So unless a human being is conscious and awakened to the fact that we are always in suffering but we do not want all these sufferings... This question... Such a person is required to approach a spiritual master, when he is conscious. You see? So long he is animal-like, that he does not know that he's always in suffering... He does not know, he does not care, or he does not want to make a solution. And here Arjuna is suffering, and he wants to make a solution, and therefore he accepts a spiritual master. So when we are conscious of our sufferings, we are awakened to the suffering situation... Suffering is there. Forgetfulness or ignorance of suffering is no meaning. Suffering is there. But when one is very serious to make a solution of his suffering, then a spiritual master required. Just like Arjuna requires now a spiritual master. Is it clear? Yes. So that suffering is there. It does not require any education, simply thinking that, a slight thinking, that "I do not want all these sufferings, but I am suffering. Why? Is there any solution? Is there...?" But there is solution. All these scriptures, all these Vedic knowledge, everything... And not only Vedic knowledge... Now... Oh, why you are going to school? Why you are going to college? Why you are taking scientific education? Why you are taking law education? Everything is meant for ending our sufferings. If there was no suffering, then nobody would have taken education. You see? But he thinks that "If I am educated, if I become a doctor or if I become a lawyer or if I become an engineer, I will be happy." Happy. That is the ultimate aim. "I will get a good job, government job. I'll be happy." So happiness is the end of every, I mean to say, pursuance. So... But these mitigation of sufferings, they are temporary. Real suffering, real suffering is due to our, this material existence, these three kinds of suffering. So when one is conscious about his suffering and he wants to make a solution of this suffering, then there is necessary of a spiritual master. Now, if you want to make a solution of your sufferings, and you want to consult a person, now what sort of person you must meet who can end your all sufferings? That selection must be there. If you want to purchase a jewel, diamond, and very valuable thing, and if you go to a grocer's shop... Such kind of ignorance -- you must be cheated. You must be cheated. At least you must approach to a jewelry shop. Jewelry shop, you see? So much knowledge you must have. So is that question solved?

Young man (2): Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. The, the necessity of a spiritual master is for him who is conscious of his material suffering. If one is not conscious of his material suffering, then he is not even on the human being status. He's still in the animal status. Animal status, you see? Now, the modern civilization... The modern civilization is practically... They are evading, evading the real sufferings. They are engaged in temporary sufferings. But the Vedic system is Vedic knowledge. They are meant for ending the sufferings of.., for good, sufferings for good. You see? The human life is meant for that, ending all suffering. Of course, we are trying to end all kinds of suffering. Our business, our occupation, our education, our advancement of knowledge -- everything is meant for ending suffering. But that suffering is temporary, temporary. But we have to end the sufferings for good. Suffering... That sort of knowledge is called transcendental knowledge, and if anyone is seeking after that transcendental... This Bhagavad-gita is not an ordinary thing. It is transcendental knowledge. And now here the ground is prepared. Ground is prepared. Arjuna is conscious of his suffering, perplexity. Now he is seeking a spiritual master.

So the, the... We should take the position of Arjuna, disciple. When a disciple is serious about making, about making a solution of the suffering, then he requires a spiritual master. And what sort of spiritual master? Krsna, the most perfect man, the most perfect man. So a spiritual master is representative of Krsna. Of course, Krsna is not present before us. But at least we must have a person as our spiritual master who represents Krsna. And who can represent Krsna? One who is devotee of Krsna, in the line, disciplic succession. You see? So see here. Arjuna accepts Krsna as the spiritual master. Now, question may be that "Why Arjuna...? There was many learned men, not only Krsna, but there were Vyasadeva and other great sages and brahmanas. Why...?" Krsna was also ksatriya. Krsna was not a brahmana. Of course, He took His, mean... He appeared in the family of a ksatriya. And they were cousin-brothers. Krsna and Arjuna, they were cousin-brothers. Krsna was the son of the brother, and Arjuna was the son of the sister. Arjuna's mother and Krsna's father, they were brother and sister. So they are in the family relation. They were intimately related, and at the same time, they were of the same age and friends. Now, the question may be: "Why Krsna is accepted as the spiritual master?" That is the selection of the disciple, that Arjuna says,

na hi prapasyami mamapanudyad
yac chokam ucchosanam indriyanam
avapya bhumav asapatnam rddham
rajyam suranam api cadhipatyam
[Bg. 2.8]

Now, he says that "I am so perplexed that my lamentation cannot be satisfied even if I get the kingdom of the universe. I am going to fight for the kingdom only of this earth, or the India." Of course, formerly, India means Bharata. Now India is a name given by the foreigners. The real name of this planet is Bharatavarsa, this planet. Now, gradually, it has been cut up. It has been cut up, just like we have got immediate experience that some portion of India is now cut up, and that is named Pakistan. You know, all. Similarly, this whole planet, five thousand years before, this whole planet was known as Bharatavarsa. Bharatavarsa. And before that, thousands and millions of years before, this planet was known as Ilavrtavarsa. Ilavrtavarsa. And now, since the time of Emperor Bharata... There was an emperor whose name was Bharata. So from the name of Bharata, this planet's name became Bharatavarsa. So up to five thousand years before... Why five thousand years before? Say, up to four thousand years before, although the modern history cannot give account, chronological account, more than 2,500 years, but we are speaking... About four thousand years before, this planet was called Bharatavarsa. Now, Arjuna says that "We are going to fight for the matter of this Bharatavarsa planet. This is one of the planet in the universe. But if I get the whole planets of this, the complete planets of this universe, and without any competitor, still, the perplexity which has arisen in my mind, that cannot be mitigated." So... Now, see what sort, what sort of responsibility is given to the Krsna. Sanjaya uvaca. Now, Sanjaya said,

evam uktva hrsikesam
gudakesah parantapah
na yotsya iti govindam
uktva tusnim babhuva ha
[Bg. 2.9]

"Just saying this, Arjuna became silent: 'Oh, I cannot fight.' "

tam uvaca hrsikesah
prahasann iva bharata
senayor ubhayor madhye
visidantam idam vacah
[Bg. 2.10]

Now here Krsna is addressed as Hrsikesa. Hrsikesa... We should always remember that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is present as incarnation. Now, God is all-powerful. God is all-powerful. So if He comes before you, you cannot deny, that "How is that, God has come?" You cannot say that. If God is all-powerful, then it is His choice. It is His free will. He can come before you, come before you, provided you are such qualified devotee. So there cannot be any solid argument that "God cannot come" or "God..." Of course, so far Vedic literatures are concerned, they accept the incarnation of God. So Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and so He is addressed as Hrsikesa. Hrsika... Hrsikesa, it has got a significant, significant meaning. Hrsika. Hrsika means the senses, hrsika. And isa. Isa means Lord. Isa means Lord. So He is the Lord of the senses. He is the Lord of the senses. Similarly, Govinda, Govinda... Here also, Govinda name is also there. Yes. Na yotsya... Na yotsya iti govindam uktva tusnim babhuva ha [Bg. 2.9]. Govindam. Govinda. Go means also senses. Go means cow, go means land, and go means sense. And inda. Inda (?) means pleasure. One who gives pleasure to the cow, one who gives pleasure to the land, one who gives pleasure to the senses -- so His name is Govinda. Now, two things, two names, are used here. So we should try to understand what is the meaning of Hrsikesa. Hrsika means indriya, and isa means Lord. So whatever senses we have got, the actually the proprietor of the senses -- not myself. The proprietor of the senses is God. Just like we are sitting in this room. This room is allotted for our sitting under some consideration of rent or whatever it may be, but this room is not ours. That's a fact. We should not consider that "This is... I am the proprietor of the room." Although I am using it to my heart's desire, as I like, that is a different thing. But as soon as there is some misunderstanding or the landlord says, "Now you cannot room in this room. Vacate," I have to vacate. You see? Similarly, this is also just like room, this, our body. This body is given to us by God under certain condition, and as soon as God likes that "You should vacate from this body," I have to vacate. Nobody can allow us to stay here. And besides that... Just like my hand, my hand, this hand... Now, suppose if this hand is paralyzed... the power of this hand is so long, so long there is power from the Supreme. Otherwise, if my hand is paralyzed, there is no remedy. There is no remedy. You see? So we are not the owner of this body, not the owner of the senses. The senses are just like hired, hired from the Supreme Lord. This is a very subtle understanding. One should know. So therefore actually the proprietor of the senses is God. Now, if I am the proprietor of this tape recorder, then it should be utilized for my purpose. Anything which I own, that should be utilized for my purpose. Your things should be utilized for your purpose. So if God is the proprietor of our senses, then these senses must be used for God's purpose. That is the constitutional position. That is the constitutional position. Now, when these senses are used for other than God's purpose, that is bondage, conditioned life. When the senses are purified and it is used for God's purpose, that is natural life. That is natural life. So whole trouble is that although our senses and everything, whatever we have got... There is Isopanisad, a part of Vedas. It is stated there that isavasyam idam sarvam: [Iso mantra 1] "Everything, whatever you see, that belongs to God." That belongs to God. Now, it is our misunderstanding that we are claiming... All the people of the world, they are claiming as proprietor. Now, just like this American land. American land, now you are claiming as the proprietor. But is it a fact? Actually are you proprietor? Eh? Now, say, some hundreds and hundreds years, when Columbus came, so there were no Americans here, and so you were not proprietor. The land was there. Now, when you shall go away, the land will also be there. So the land belongs to God, and everything... Now, we say that we have manufactured this typewriter. Now, this typewriter, the now ingredient, the iron, have we manufactured iron? No. Iron is received from the mines. It is given by God. Nobody can manufacture iron. Nobody can manufacture anything. They can transform from one thing to another. They can bring out the iron from the mine. They can melt, and they can transform the shape of the metal in a different way. So that they can do, but they cannot produce iron. They cannot produce anything -- wood, iron, earth, anything, whatever.

So real proprietor is God. Real proprietor is God, everything. Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. This is God consciousness. This is God consciousness. One who is in God consciousness, he is a perfect man. He is a perfect man. So here, the significant word,

tam uvaca hrsikesah
prahasann iva bharata
senayor ubhayor madhye
visidantam idam vacah
[Bg. 2.10]

Now, Krsna is smiling. Krsna is smiling because that "Just see. Arjuna is such a hero. He is My friend, and now he is so much perplexed." Now, when he sat down and he, Arjuna, accepted Krsna as the spiritual master, now Krsna begins to speak. Sri-bhagavan uvaca. Sri-bhagavan uvaca. Here the book does not say, krsnah uvaca. Sri-bhagavan uvaca. Now, we should understand what is the meaning of bhagavan. Bhaga... Bhaga means opulence. Opulence. There are six kinds of opulence. And what are...? Yes.

Young man (2): It means what?

Prabhupada: Opulence.

Young man (2): Opulence.

Prabhupada: Do you follow, opulence?

Young man (2): Yes, I do.

Prabhupada: Yes. So what are these opulences? Wealth is opulence. Then strength is opulence. Then... Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya. Strength and fame. Fame is also opulence. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. The whole Christian world knows. Lord Krsna everyone knows. Or the, apart from them, President Johnson. Now the whole America and the whole world knows who is President Johnson. Mahatma Gandhi. The famous. So fame is also opulence. And nobody knows me, but he is also a person. He is known throughout the whole world. So this is an opulence. Just like your Rockefellers. They are very rich. So everyone knows in the world. So they are opulent, opulent by wealth. Similarly, somebody is opulent by fame, and somebody is opulent by strength. And so strength is opulence, wealth is opulence, and fame is opulence. And then beauty; beauty is also opulence. If one, one man or woman, is very beautiful, he attracts persons. He attracts. So anything that attracts, that is called opulence. A wealthy man attracts. A strong man attracts. A famous man attracts. If somebody, famous man, comes here, oh, so many people will gather to receive him.

So these are opulences: wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation -- six things...

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11 -- New York, March 2, 1966