"God Is Individual Person"

66/03/07 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


Prabhupada: So last day we were speaking about the eleventh, eleventh, Second Chapter, eleventh verse. Just read it. Second Chapter, eleventh verse.

Devotee: "In fact, there was never..." "Arjuna, you grieve over those who should not be grieved for, and yet speak like the learned wise men who do not sorrow over the dead or the living."

Prabhupada: Yes. You have marked it? With pen? Yes. So we have finished this sloka. The next verse is

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

What is the translation?

Devotee: "In fact there was never a time when I was not, or you or these kings were not, nor is it a fact that hereafter we shall cease to be."

Prabhupada: Yes. Now...

Devotee: "...we shall ever..."

Prabhupada: Krsna is trying to convince Arjuna that death does not take place. He says clearly that "Myself -- I am the Supreme God, Krsna -- yourself, you, and all the other kings and the soldiers, those who have assembled in this great battlefield, it is not that in the past, we were not existing. And in the present, we are now face to face. We are seeing that we are existing. And in the future, we shall also exist in the same way." "In the same way" means individually. Just like I am an individual person. You are an individual person. He is an individual person. So I, you, he, or they -- first person, second person and the third person -- so that individuality continues. Individuality of every living being is a fact. Therefore in the actual field also, we see that we have got difference of opinion. What I think, you may not agree with me because you have got your individuality. Similarly, your thinking may not be agreed by another gentleman. So everyone has got his individuality. That is a fact. Not that the... Just like there is a class of philosophers who says that the soul is a homogeneous, one entity, and after the destruction, after the annihilation of this body, the soul, as a substance, will mix up. Just like water. You keep in different pots. In different pots you keep water. So the water takes the shape of the pot, the bowl, round bowl. You keep water. The water takes the shape of round. So similarly, there are thousands of, or millions of, waterpots, and suppose all the waters are mixed up. Then there is no distinction. Just like they were in the pots. So their theory is that when a soul is liberated then the, that it mixes up with the Supersoul. Just like a drop water taken from the sea water and again put it into the sea, it mixes up. It loses its identity.

So that is one theory. But here Lord Krsna says that "Myself, yourself, and all others who have come here..." There were about sixty millions of people assembled in that fight. It was not a small fight. In India there was... Of course, that was also great world, world war. Just like we had experience... I think in the First World War none of you had seen because you were all young men. And we were child. When the First World War was declared, we were all boys, schoolchildren. My age was at that time fourteen years old, in 1914, when there was fight declared between Germany and Belgium. So that was the First World War. Then Second World War was in 1939. That was also German and Englishmen, like that. But actually, this was also World War, this Battlefield of Kuruksetra, because all the kings of the world, they joined either this party or that party. So there were a great assembly of all worldly kings. Now, Krsna says that "Either Myself, either yourself, or these persons who have assembled here, they are individual. They were individuals in the past, they are now individuals, and they will continue to be individual even after annihilation of this body." Now, how you'll adjust? There are two theories, that after liberation all these souls, they become one. Just like all drops of water, if you put into the sea, they become one entity. There is no distinction. And the Lord Krsna says that "No, they keep their individuality. They do not mix." Now we are supposed... We are all laymen. We are ignorant, what is actually position, what is the actual position. But we have got our discretion also. Just like every one of you has some knowledge in the history. Now, in the history in the past... Suppose you are now thirty years old or thirty- five years old, and suppose two hundred years before, the history which you read, you find that all people were individuals. And at the present you are experiencing that all individual, they are. All living entities -- either human being, or animals or birds, or anywhere -- you can see that they are individual. Then why should you not believe that in future they will remain individual? Do you follow? In the past they were individuals, in the present they are individuals, and why not in future they'll remain individuals? It is naturally concluded that they will continue to be individuals. Even we do not have any sufficient knowledge in either of these two theories, mixing up or keeping individual, but by our own small reasoning we can understand that in the future history we have information that there were individual persons. At the present moment also, we are seeing that there are individual persons. So why not in the future? How it is that in the future they'll mix up and become one, homogeneous thing? It is quite reasonable. And this conclusion is like this: just like in two hundred years before, in the month of March, the climatic position was like this. And in 1966 we find in March the climatic position is exactly the same. And in future... Naturally I conclude that in future in March the same climatic condition will be there. In astronomy also, if you find that in March, in such and such date, the sun rising is like this, and actually in the present March, month of March, 1966, we see the same exact time... And the whole calculation of astronomy is made like that. They prepare hundred years' astronomical charts. Hundred years'. How they do prepare? By this calculation, that in the past it was like this, at the present it is like this, so naturally, in future it will be like this. Just like you are speaking of the imminent springtime, that the nature, how will be decorate, how springtime, it will be nice, because you had past experience. So you are foretelling. It is not foretelling. From past experience, you are telling that this will take place. This will take place.

So this is another point, to understand things by our reasoning. But there are things which is beyond our reasoning. There are things, just like God, the existence of God. Of course, by our reasoning, we take it for granted that because everything has a creator... Just like we have this tape recorder before us. So we know that there is a manufacturer. Similarly, the typewriter, there is a manufacturer. In everything there is a father or manufacturer. Myself, I am, I am created by my father. My father was created by his father. Similarly, naturally we can conclude that this whole cosmic situation, the whole material manifestation -- there is one creator. You see? So these are simple reasoning. It is not very hard to understand. But at the same time, there are things which are beyond our experience, beyond our reasoning, beyond our, I mean to say, conception. Those things are called acintya. Acintya means inconceivable. Inconceivable.

Now, how to understand that which is beyond our conception? The scriptures says like this, acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: "Anything which is beyond our conception, beyond our reasoning power, beyond our approach of the material senses, such things we should not try to have conception simply by arguments." So in the Vedic injunction it is said that tarkah apratistha: "By... What should be the... What should be our real understanding, that we cannot establish simply by argument." Tarkah apratisthah smrtayo vibhinnah: "If we consult different scriptures, then we'll find that one scripture is speaking something, another scripture is speaking something else." Just like cow-killing. Take, take it for example. The Hindus, they say that cow-killing is irreligious. The Muhammadans say, "No, cow-killing is religious." There is some adjustment, but... Now, in the scripture I see that the cow-killing, in some scriptures it is said that cow-killing is irreligious, and another scripture says that cow-killing is religious. So which of them I shall accept? This is ni... This is all right, or that is all right? So therefore it is said that smrtayo vibhinnah. If you consult different scriptures, you'll find different contradictory statements. Your scripture may be different from my scripture. And nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. If you consult philosophers, you'll find one philosopher is differing from another philosopher. A big philosopher means who has cut down other philosophers and put up his own theory, "This is true." This is going on. So tarko 'pratisthah smrtayo vibhinna nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. Then how to conclude what is the right path? I cannot establish it by my imperfect arguments. I cannot consult even the scriptures. Neither I can take real instruction from different philosophers. Then what, what is the way of having the real thing? So it says that dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: "The truth of religiosity is very confidential, very secret." So how to know it? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah: [Cc. Madhya 17.186] "We have simply to see that great personalities, as they have taken up, we have to follow. That's all." Just like in your Christian religion you may not understand all the Biblical injunctions or you may not have the time, but you'll simply, if you follow the ideal life of Lord Jesus Christ, then you get the same result. Similarly, the Muhammadans, if they follow the ideal life of Muhammad, Hazrat Muhammad, so they get the result. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Just like in a unknown path, in a village, especially when there is a field... Now, in, in the city, you can know that "I have come so far" because the streets are numbered and the, you have got the location and there are some symptoms, this house or that house. But in the country, everything, every, every place is of the same similar nature, the same jungle, the same field, the same grass. We do not know where I am going. Or in the sea. Or in the sea. I have got experience. Have you ever traveled in the sea? No. But when I was coming from India, so everywhere I see a round only, round of water. I do not know which way the ship is proceeding. You see? But they have got a chart. They have got a chart. By latitude, longitude, by time and by chart, they are calculating. Now, I was asking the Captain, "Where we have come?" He was saying, in the Mediterranean Sea, "Oh, we are so many miles from Italy. We are so many miles from..." Like this. "Tunisia. Now we are coming to Gibraltar." Like this. But I was seeing all vast of water only. I was seeing, "Just after ten miles I shall reach," but it never reaches. So then how, what are these charts? The charts are that experienced sailors, they have made the charts. The captain was also consulting that chart because it was made by experienced sailors. That is nothing. So similarly in calculating in which way we have to find out our salvation is to follow such liberated souls.

So last day we had been discussing that difference between the conditioned soul and liberated soul is that a conditioned soul is imperfect in four ways. A conditioned soul is sure to commit mistake, a conditioned soul is in illusion, a conditioned soul has the tendency for cheating others, and a conditioned soul has got his senses imperfect, imperfect senses. Therefore knowledge should be taken from a liberated soul. Why this Bhagavad-gita is so honored? Now, this Bhagavad-gita was spoken in India, and it is understood that it is a scripture of the Hindus. But why...? Now, you are Americans. You are also keeping this Bhagavad-gita, and not only in America, in other countries also, in Germany. In Germany there are great, great scholars, in England, in Japan, in all countries. So why? Because it is spoken by a great personality. Apart from... We may... We Hindus, we accept Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but others, even not accepting Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they accept it as, at least, that He was a great personality. Therefore, besides the Hindu community, others, they are also consulting the knowledge. Now, my point is that when such a great personality, and when a..., we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then His version is right. What He says, that from our practical experience we can conclude that every individual persons who were in the past individuals, they are also individuals at the present, and they'll continue to be individuals, and this is by our common sense, but it is confirmed by Sri Krsna, whom we call the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He is accepted as a great personality. He says, na tu eva aham jatu nasam: "Don't think that I was not in existence." That means "I was in existence," not that "Just now I have come before you as God, as Sri Krsna. I was Sri Krsna in the past also, and I am Sri Krsna at the present. So also yourself, and so also others -- all individuals. So and at the present we are." Na caiva na bhavisyamah: "And don't think that we shall not remain." Sarve. This sarve means "we all," not that... Sarve is plural number. Janadhipah is plural number. "So they are all individual souls." So the individual soul continues. That is the version. That is the version of the Bhagavad-gita, and we... It is better to accept this version without unnecessarily commenting it or interpreting it in a different way so that one... Interpretation is very bad. You see? A scripture should not be interpreted. A scripture should be taken as it is, as it is. And besides that, interpretation... When interpretation is required? When a thing is not properly understood, at that time, interpretation is required. Otherwise, there is no necessity of interpretation. Just like you..., that "Such and such village" or "such and such town is on the sea." Somebody says. Now, the person who hears that "Such and such town is on the sea," and he may be confused: "How is that? On the, on the water, how there can be a town?" So there is explanation required. Now that explanation is that " ‘On the sea' does not mean ‘in the midst of the sea,' but ‘on the bank of the sea.' " Here is an interpretation. So similarly, a thing which is very clear to everyone, so there is no necessity of interpretation. Here the, the statement of Bhagavad-gita as by, spoken by Lord Krsna, is very clear, that "Myself, yourself and all these people who have assembled here, they are all individual persons. And they were individual persons in the past, and at the present moment, we see that they are individual persons, and they will continue. They will continue." I may not know what they will become in the future, but because He is God, because He is the Supreme Personality, His statement should be accepted. That makes my knowledge perfect. Just like I give you one very simple example. Now, if a little boy asks his mother that "Who is my father?" The mother says that "Here is your father." Now, if the child says, "I don't believe it, that he is my father," is it possible to convince him in any other way than the statement of the mother? Is it possible? No. That is the final. That is the final. And if he says, "I don't believe it," that is his foolishness. Similarly, a thing which is beyond our conception, beyond our limit of knowledge, that should be taken from the authority.

So here is an authority, Sri Krsna. Authority. His authority, authorityship, is accepted by all over the world. In, in our India there are five different disciplic succession of authorities, just like the Sankarites, followers of Sankaracarya, and Vaisnavites. Generally, they are two: Mayavadi, impersonalists; and personalists. The personalist school, philosophers, they are divided into four: Ramanuja-sampradaya -- that means followers of Acarya Ramanuja; Madhvacarya-sampradaya, or the followers of Madhvacarya; Nimbarka-sampradaya, followers of Nimbarka Acarya; and Visnusvami-sampradaya. They, their conclusion is the same. Although they are four in number, their conclusion is the same. And another sect is Sankarite sampradaya. So all these four, I mean, five different section of the Hindus, they accept Sri Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All of them. There is no denial. Although they are five, they have got different theses and philosophies, little, little difference, not, I mean, conclusion, but still... Now, Sripada Sankaracarya, he, he is supposed, he is considered to be impersonalist. Impersonalist means he does not believe in the personal form of God. But still, he has commented in this, of this Bhagavad-gita, Sankara-bhasya. He has admitted there that "Sri Krsna is the Personality of Godhead." He has also admitted. Others, they are Vaisnavites, other acaryas, other authorities, they are Vaisnavites. They have naturally admitted because they believe from the beginning. But even Sankaracarya, who is impersonalist, he has also clearly written that sa bhagavan svayam krsnah: "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And there are many evidences in many scriptures and Vedic scriptures that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In the Brahma-samhita it is stated,

isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]

Isvarah paramah. Isvara. Isvara means the Lord. Now, there are different lords, different lords, degree. Lord means controller or proprietor. So you have got some lordship over your environment. He has got some lordship. I have got some lordship. He has got some lordship. Or the President Johnson, he has got some lordship. In this way you'll find different degrees of lordship. But here it is said that the supreme, superlative degree Lord is Krsna. Above Him, there is no other Lord. Here we shall find that you are bigger lord than me, he is bigger than lord you, and somebody is bigger than him. In this way you can approach the lordship of Johnson. Then you can see another man. He is more than Johnson; another man, more than Johnson, like that. But when you reach Sri Krsna by such analytical process, you'll find that nobody is greater, nobody is equal than Sri Krsna. Therefore Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He says something -- we must agree to accept it. (laughs) We must... If we don't agree, that will not be beneficial for us. When a great man says something... And He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is saying that we are all individual persons. We are all individual persons. God is also individual person. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). Nityo nityanam. Nitya means eternal. We are all eternal. This is plural number. So amongst all the eternal living entities, He is the chief. This is a definition of God, is given in the... Nityo nitya. Cetananam, nit..., cetanas cetananam: "We are all conscious, conscious beings." So He is the supreme conscious. He is the supreme conscious. Now, of course, there are some yogic schools. In America you'll find. They do not believe in God. But it is not actually... The yoga principle does not deny the existence of God. God is there.

Now, just to inform you I have just brought one very authoritative book by two great professors of Calcutta University. The book is called Introduction to Indian Philosophy. Now he says... "He says" means he is giving, after studying all different kinds of philosophy, he is giving a nutshell idea of each type of system. Now, just see: "The place of God in the yoga... The place of God in the yoga, as distinguished from the Sankhya, the yoga is theistic." Yoga system was introduced by Lord Patanjali, a great authority. You see? Now they have studied. Here is two persons. And this book is very authoritative. This is the sixth edition. Just see. It has very good sale in all the universities of the world. It is a very authoritative book. And this Dr. Chatterjee and Dr. Datta, they are not ordinary persons. This is accepted by all universities. And they are authoritative persons. Now, just... I am therefore reading his version. What does he say? The yoga system. Now, "As distinguished from the Sankhya, the yoga is theistic." Yoga system is theistic. Theistic means believing in God. (From here for about four pages, Prabhupada is mostly reading from the Indian Philosophy book.) It admits the existence of God and both practical and theoretical Gods. Patanjali himself, however, has not felt the necessity of God for solving any theoretical problem of philosophy. For him, God has more a practical value than a theoretical one. This is the version of Patanjali. You see?

Devotion to God is considered to be the great practical value, as much as it forms a part of practice of yoga. Those who are practicing yoga, they must be devotee of God. Otherwise, yoga will be a failure. You see? So inasmuch as it forms a part of practice of yoga and is one of the means for the final attainment of samadhi-yoga or the restraint of the mind... That yoga, citta-niruddha. The whole purpose of practicing yoga is to control the mind, control the mind. Now, here Patanjali system, that unless you, I mean, conduct devotional service of Lord, or bhakti, there is no success of yoga. The subsequent commentators and interpreters... The difficulty is that wrong interpretation of the original text delude the audience. You see? So they are... The subsequent commentators and interpreters of the yoga reveals also a theoretical interest in God and discuss more fully the speculative problems as to the nature of God and the proof for the existence of God. They practically take up the speculative way. But Patanjali, as he is, he takes practically, that without devotion of God, there is no success of yoga. Thus the yoga system has come to have both a theoretical and practical interest in the divine will. According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person. Now just see. This is authoritative statement. A Supreme Person. Did you ever hear...? You have been in so many yoga societies. Did you ever hear that God is the Supreme Person? Now just see.

According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person who is above all individual selves and is free from all defects. Now, the same thing, in the Bhagavad-gita also, Lord Krsna, He, He is telling. He is informing us about the future or of the past because He is perfect. He can see both past and future. Because we are not perfect, because we do not know... Now, accepting it that you existed in, in your, in the future... Say your age is thirty-four, thirty-five years. Can you say, thirty-six years before, where you were? You cannot say. Or suppose you live for hundred years. Can you say hundred years after where you shall be? You cannot say because you are imperfect, because you are imperfect. So God is not imperfect. God is perfect being. Here yoga system also accept like that. According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person who is above all individual... Individual, now here you see the individual. The every, every living entity is individual. That, this particular word, that individual self and is free from all defects. And because He's free from all defects, His statement is defectless. And therefore we must admit. My statement, because I am imperfect, my statement is also imperfect. I have no idea of the past and future. How can I say that in future you will be like this, or in the past you were like this? I cannot say. That, who is defectless -- who can see past, future and present equally, and there is no defect -- he can say.

So here is the statement of the Supreme Person. We have to believe it. We cannot go out of it. If we don't believe it, then we are loser. If we don't believe it, then we are loser. He is the perfect being who is eternal and all-pervading. Just see, all-pervading. That means, although you can see Him as a person... Just like you are present before me as a person, but you are absent in your residence. Is it not? But God is not like that. God is, although He's present, Krsna, although He's present just before Arjuna, instructing him, but He's all-pervading at the same time. A crude example. Just like at twelve o'clock in the mid-day, you see that the sun is above your head. And five thousand miles away, if you ask any friend, "Where is the sun?" he'll say, "It is on my head." Five thousand miles this way, that way, you inquire, and everyone will say, "The sun is on my head." So if a material thing... Sun is a material thing. If a material entity can be so all-pervading, at one and the same time, so is it not that the supreme spiritual being, He'll not be all-pervading? He is, certainly. He must be. He must be.

So here you see that He is the perfect being who is eternal... And eternal. Eternal means that... Eternal means everything. Eternal in consciousness. Now, Krsna says that "You and Myself and all these beings were like this" because He has got eternal consciousness. He has actually experienced what I was. But because my consciousness is not eternal, I have forgotten what I was in my previous birth. Neither I can say what I shall be in my next birth. These are the distinctions. If we falsely claim that "I am God, I am that supreme consciousness," it is our lunacy. It is our lunacy. We should not indulge in that way, and anyone teaching in that way, that is a cheating. It is not possible. Here is an authoritative book. He is the perfect being who is eternal and all-pervading, omnipotent, omniscient. All individual selves are more or less subject to the affliction of ignorance. We are, all living entities except God, everyone, everyone, they are subjected to ignorance, forgetfulness.

That's a fact. Ignorance, egoism. Egoism means that without having the qualification, one declares that "I am God." This is egoism. Without having the qualification of God, if one declares that "I am God," a foolish man, that is called egoism. Egoism, desire, aversion and dread of death. They have to do various kinds of work, good, bad, and indifferent, and reap the consequences thereof. That means they are subjected to the acts of your, I mean to say, reaction of their acts. If you do some good thing, then you reap the good result. If you do some bad thing, then you reap the bad result. And because we are defective, therefore we do something good, sometimes bad.

The best thing is, therefore, that God is all-good. If we follow God, then we become good. If we follow God or God's representative, then we also become good. Because God is always good. A good cannot give you bad direction. Therefore devotional service... It is incumbent that everyone should be followers. Everyone should be followers of the instruction of God. That is devotional service. Nobody should be deviated from the service of the Lord. The whole Bhagavad-gita... This is the beginning, and at the end, Lord will instruct, I mean to say, Arjuna, that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You just surrender unto Me"; and aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah: "And I shall protect you, give you protection from all reactions of sinful life." The best thing is, if we want to be all-good, then we have to follow the instruction of all-good. We have to mold our life in such a way that what is advised by the all-good... That will make our life perfect. Next we shall... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- New York, March 7, 1966

"Part 3 The Unavoidable Battle"

"Part 3 The Unavoidable Battle"

66/03/09 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


This is the clear version of number -- you can note down -- number twelve verse of the Second Verse, er, Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

Now, now I have already explained that because Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and because He has got clear vision, and because He has full knowledge, He cannot give us misdirection. And what is given, that is perfect. So we have to believe that in future, even after liberation... Now, one thing we must also explain -- the liberation, the conception of liberation. So there are different, five kinds of liberation. One of them, liberation, is to become one with the Lord, one with the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti, to merge into the existence of, of the Supreme. That is also another. That is one of the five liberations. That is not the only liberation. That means we all individual beings, we are individual constitutionally. God is the father or creator or whatever, or the source of all life, or source of our existence. Whatever you like, you can say. So we have, we have been created in that way. Eko bahu syama. God has become many. This is also version of the Vedas that many, all these many, we are also god. Just like the fire diffuses its sparks. The sparks coming out of the fire, it is the..., they are also part and parcel of the fire. Similarly we, we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. Now, He wanted to become many. He wanted to become many, so He has become many, and we are that many. So we are not different from God. We are not different from God, but because He wanted to become many, so we have become many. Now, thing is, when God wanted to become many, there must be some purpose behind this. Otherwise, why did He like to become many? He was one, one without second. That's all right. But why did He become many?

So that is a question, one must like to put, that "Why God became many?" So that is, that answer is that because God is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1] -- He's all-pleasure -- therefore, without many, there is no pleasure. Just like here I sit down the whole day alone, but I become more active and more pleasing when you come. Whenever we want to enjoy some pleasure, pleasure is not enjoyed alone. Pleasure is enjoyed with many. Now God is by nature... He's anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). He's always full of pleasure, full of blissfulness. Now, if He wants to become many, it is... He's omnipotent. He can become many. Where is the objection there? He can... He can manifest Himself in various... Just now we have quoted a verse from Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta-rupam means unlimited forms. Unlimited forms. Ad... Still, they are one. In spite of becoming unlimited, they're one. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots, waterpots, in every pot you'll find the sun's reflection. But that millions of reflections, sun, does not mean that sun has lost his oneness. Sun is one. That is also a Vedic system, that we are all reflection like that. So anyway, these many, many forms of God, is from the desire of God. Now, out of these... Because God has got some desire, transcendental desire, to enjoy with many. He enjoys with His own energy because He is all-perfect. Just like if I want to enjoy life, I want family, I want a wife, I want children, I want friends, I want servants. So I have to think before having a wife. You see? Because I am limited, so I think twice, whether I am able to keep a wife, then whether I am able to maintain my children. These things are consideration. And actually, in the present society every young man is thinking like that. You see? Whenever the question of marrying is there, they think like that. But that thinking is due to our imperfectness. Because we are not all-powerful, therefore we think like that. But when we give the qualification to God that He is all-powerful, omnipotent, so He can maintain any number of children or any number of wives. Otherwise, there is no meaning of omnipotent. So similarly, God has become many, and He has got a plan behind this thinking of many. Now, out of these manies, if one wants to merge again into the existence of God, so God has no objection.

Woman: Huh?
Prabhupada: God has no objection. Now, from God we have become many. Now, suppose I or you want that I don't want to keep myself as one of the many. I want to become one with Him. If you like that, that is called sayujya-mukti. So God does not deny you. "All right, you merge into Me." But that does not mean all other manies also merge into Him. That does... Because, individually, I want to merge into the existence of God, that does not mean all other manies... Because many means not only myself. There are millions and billions and trillions of many. So if out of that trillion, billion, one wants to merge into the existence of God, God is all-powerful; why he should be denied? "All right, you merge into Me. If you don't want to keep your individuality, if you want to merge into Myself, all right, you are welcome." Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find it, "Anyone who wants Me in any way, I fulfill his desire."

So that oneness, merging into the existence of..., that is not a general rule. That is a specific instance only, that if anyone wants to merge into the existence of God, he can do that. God has no objection. But if others... That does (not) mean that everyone gener..., as a rule merges, merge into the existence of God. There are others. Just like another example. You take it. Generally, this example is given, that the, the rivers, the rivers all flow into the sea, and they become one. Or the drop of the ocean water, when put into the ocean, the drop of the ocean water loses his existence. It become one with the... That's all right. Now, if you have seen the ocean, there are always millions and millions of drops coming out by the dashing of the waves. You see? That is going on continually. And some of them again falling into the water. They lose their... They lose the drop existence. But that does not mean that that creation of drop is stopped. Even from that example. You see? And because the river waters comes and, I mean to say, merges into the sea water, that does not mean the river, all rivers are stopped. The rivers are there. Another example: now, there are many aquatic animals within the water. They are also... Now, as the drop of the water emerges from the sea water and again merges into the sea water, so that is a nice example, but these fishes, these aquatic animals, they are also born in that water. Nobody has given these aquatic animals from anywhere else. They are... They have taken their birth from that water. They are also born of the water. Just like the drops of the water also born of the water, similarly, these living aquatic animals, they are also born of the water. Now, the drop of the water merges into the water and loses his existence -- that does not mean -- there are other living entities within the water, millions and billions -- they also lose their identity. They keep their identity.

So some of the living beings may merge into the existence of the God. That is called sayujya-mukti. But there are many millions and millions and billions of... Ananta. They want to keep their existence and enjoy the association of God. That is the difference between jnani and bhakta. The jnani's ultimate aim is nirveda-brahmanusandhanam(?). They want to become one with the Supreme. He does not, a jnani does not want to keep himself separately from the Supreme. He wants into the merging.

Woman: You mean the jnani yogi?

Prabhupada: Jnani. Yes. Jnani, not yogi.

Woman: Jnani.

Prabhupada: Jnani. Jnani means philosophers, empiric philosophers. Empiric philosophers. Brahma, Brahmavadis, those who want to merge into the existence of Brahman. They are called jnanis. And those who meditate on God within himself, they are called yogis. This is general definition. And those, those who worship the Supreme as Personality of Godhead, they are devotees.

Woman: Yes. The name? The name? You say jnani...?

Prabhupada: Jnani, yogi and bhakta.

Woman: Bhakta.

Prabhupada: Bhakta.

Woman: The other one...

Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakta.

Woman: Jnani, how do you spell it?

Prabhupada: J, N, A, N, I. "Jan-nanee. Jan-nanee." The spelling is "Jananee." So the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Truth is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, the Supreme Truth. Now, according to... Because we have already explained that each and every individual being has got his individual minute quantity of independence. God has given us. Now, by our independence, I may accept as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I may accept Him that the all-pervading Supersoul, and I may accept Him that the all-pervading Brahman, impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence. So all these are applicable to the Absolute Truth. Now, it depends on my discretion whether I want to merge into the existence of the Lord, whether I want to keep my individuality and associate with Him as friend, as father, mother, as wife. Just like we have got relation. So that depends on my discretion. But now, comparatively, if we study that if we merge into the existence of God, the, at least, in the opinion of the bhaktas, that is not acceptable. That is not acceptable. They know that, that "God has created me as an individual being, so He has got some purpose. And because He has created me for some purpose, I must fulfill that purpose. I must fulfill that purpose."

Now, I can give you another crude example that a, that a, from the mother... Suppose a few children, half a dozen children, has come. Now, what is the intention of the mother? The mother or the father... Mother or father, same thing -- who has taken the responsibility of the children. They, they want to be happy. Otherwise, why people are taking so much trouble, whole day, for, I mean, maintaining their children? There is some happiness. Nobody wants to take so much trouble, but at home, because there is some happiness by seeing the children, by maintaining the children, by..., therefore he takes so much trouble. Now, at the same time, the children has also some troubles of life. Now, if one of the children requests the mother, "Mother, you have given birth to me, and... But I find my life very troublesome. Better you again put me in your belly." (laughs) Is it a good proposal? It is not at all a good proposal. This is a disappointment. "Oh," the mother says, "oh, my dear son, you are in trouble. Therefore you want to come again into my belly? You want to merge into my existence again?" Well, the mother is unable. He cannot, she cannot do that. But if, if such kind of request is made to the Supreme Lord, He can accept that. For Him it is not possible, impossible. "All right, you want to merge into My existence? Come on. Come on. I, I, I take you." But the thing is whether the son who requests the mother or the father like that, he is sane person. The sane son, the intelligent son, will think, "Well, my father and my mother, they have brought up me. They have begotten me. They have given us our life. All right, let us serve our parents. Let them be happy. Our activities so that..." That is the natural way. That is the natural... Because God has created us in so many individual living entities, we are all parts and parcel. Just like father and son or mother and son. Sons are the parts of the body of the mother. The, we get this body from mother's body. That's a fact. Similarly, it is, it... You'll find in Bhagavad-gita also that this material nature is the mother, and the Lord is the father, and the father is giving seed into the womb of the mother, and we have all come out from the... We have got this material body. Similarly, you see?

Now, this point, that to merge into the existence of the Supreme Lord is, if it is proposed by some individual soul or individual living entity, that can be accepted by the Lord, sayujya-mukti... That is not very difficult. But the thing is whether we should think like that, whether it is good for us. That is my choice. If want to merge into... You follow me, what I say? If I want to merge into the existence of God... Just like if your son wants again to merge into your existence, because you are human being, it is not possible for you, but it is not impossible for God. God can accept: "All right, you want to merge into Me. All right, come on. I accept it." So that not impossible. So that merging into the existence of God. There is a liberation like that. But that is not the ultimate. You want to speak something?

Woman: Jnani, you say, means liberation from reading literature.

Prabhupada: Yes, but there are other individuals who... There are other individuals who may not agree with that kind of salvation or liberation. They want to keep their individuality and enjoy the Supreme Personality of Godhead's company. Just like Arjuna. In the Fourth Chapter you will, you will see that Arjuna... When Sri Krsna said to Arjuna that "This system of yoga was first explained to the sun-god, sun-god," now Arjuna inquired, "How is that? You are... You are my contemporary. How You say that You advised or instructed this yoga system to sun? That means crores and crores, I mean, millions and billions of years before. How is that?" This is, mean, a very sane question. Now, in that question the Lord answered, "My dear Arjuna, yourself and Myself, we took birth many times, but you have forgotten. I, I, I have not forgotten."

Now, now, here you see that because Arjuna has taken up that transcendental bliss, that he wants to keep with the company of the Lord. So if anyone wants to keep company with the Lord, he's welcome. There are five different kinds of relation with God: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya... I think I gave you one day...

Woman: Yes. Could you give them by name, the five kinds of liberation? In English?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. I'll give.

Woman: One is with the Lord, we merge, we merge...

Prabhupada: Mergence means... The merging into the existence, this is called sayujya-mukti. Sayujya-mukti.

Woman: No, but in English.

Prabhupada: English, there is... Sayujya, to become one.

Woman: Yes, to become one.

Prabhupada: Sayujya-mukti means liberation by becoming one with the Lord.

Woman: Yes. Okay. What is number two?

Prabhupada: Yes. I'll explain. Yes.

Student: Mukti?

Prabhupada: Mukti means liberation. Mukti means... Now we are in egoistic condition in this material body. Now, mukti means when we shall be liberated from the material existence and we shall get our spiritual life, proper. That is called mukti. Just like a person is suffering from disease, fever. Now, when he, he's out of feverish attack, he's called mukta. Rogya-mukta. Rogya-mukta means he's free from the disease. Similarly, mukti means because we are now encumbered with this material body, as soon as we become free from this material conception of life, that is called mukti. That is called brahma-bhuta. Brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Generally, Dr. Mishra is teaching this, that you, what you think of your, what I am, I am not this body. That is the whole process of his teaching. So we have already discussed. This is same point is being discussed nicely in Bhagavad-gita, that we are not this body. Our material identification is wrong. So we have come to that point, come to that stage, you see, that I am not this body. And because I am not this body, therefore I have no connection with this world -- because my connection with this world is due to my body, is due to my body. I consider one woman my wife because I have got bodily connection. I, I consider somebody my son because bodily connection. I consider this town, this country my country because my body has grown up from this land. So in this way, as soon as one become free from the conception of identification of this body, he becomes a liberated soul. Therefore you'll find in Bhagavad-gita in the later chapters that as soon as one emerges out from this conception, he is prasannatma: "Oh, I have no responsibility. I have no responsibility." Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as he is liberated... Just like a man freed from the attack of fever or any disease, when he's recovered, he finds himself happy: "Oh, now my disease is now gone. I am happy." Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual understanding of our existence, then our life will be joyful. That is a sign. Whether a man is freed from this material existence, mukti... Mukti can be achieved even in this life. Mukti. Mukti. It is, it is, it is a question of conviction. Now we are convinced firmly that "I am this material body. And as soon as... I gave you the other day the example of Socrates. He was convinced that "I am not this body." So he was offered poison. He gladly took it, that "What is that? I shall take it!" Because he was mukta-purusa. It is... He is liberated soul. "Never mind. You want to kill me. Kill me. I don't mind. All right." So this liberation. This is liberation.

Now, this liberation is divided into five. There are five kinds of liberation. One of the liberation is to merge into the existence. We, we, we... Our birth was from the Supreme Absolute. Now, after liberation, we merge into the existence of the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti. Now, besides this sayujya-mukti, there are other five muktis which, we, the Vaisnava sampradaya, or the devotees, the Lord's devotees, they accept. They, they, practically, those who are pure devotees, they do not want any kind of mukti. They do not, even they are offered. They are simply after the service of the Lord. They are prepared to suffer any kind of suffering. They are not affected by all those sufferings. What they want? Pure devotees? They want that "I must serve the Supreme Lord." That is their mission. So anyway, these bhaktas, or the devotees of the Lord, for them there are other four kinds of mukti. And what is that? This is sayujya-mukti, to become one with the... Now, there is... Then sarupya, sarupya-mukti. Sarupya-mukti means the spiritual body becomes as... The features of the spiritual body becomes just like the Supreme Lord. Just like Narayana. Narayana has got four hands with sankha, cakra, gada, padma, and with the lotus flower, conchshell, club and wheel. So, so everyone who takes that sarupya-mukti just become just like the... His feature of the body become just like the Lord. That is called sarupya-mukti.

Woman: That is S, A, R, U...

Prabhupada: S, A, R, U, P, Y, A. Sarupya. Yes. Sarupya. This is called sarupya-mukti. And...

Woman: Mukti, or mukhi?

Prabhupada: Mukti, yes.

Woman: And three?

Prabhupada: And three... The two I have explained, sayujya and sarupya. Then salokya. Salokya. Salokya means you can, one can, get habitation, residence, in the same planet where God is there. That is salokya. And then the next is sarsti. Sarsti. S, A, R, S, T, I, sarsti. Sarsti means to get the same opulence. As I have already explained, opulence, he, he gets all the opulences as the Lord has got. He becomes so..., as good as Lord, becomes so powerful. This is called sarsti. And, and the last is samipya. Samipya means he is always in the company of the Lord. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is always... Whenever Lord takes His incarnation, Arjuna is there. Arjuna is there. Samipya. They are never separated. Just like a husband and wife, never separated. You see. Or the father and the son. Of course, nowadays the question is different, but generally, the family members, they all remain together. Samipya. And the father and the boys and wife and..., they remain together. So there is samipya-mukti. Samipya-mukti means to remain always as associate of the Lord. That is samipya-mukti.

So these five kinds of muktis are there, and the, the purport is that even after liberation, we, the living entities, they keep their individuality. Just like as associate of the Lord, as the resident of the Lord's planet or to have the bodily features of the Lord, in so many ways. And one can merge into the existence of the Lord. That is also accepted. So simply merging into the existence of God, that is not the only liberation. That is one of the liberation. But the, the devotees of the Lord, they do not accept such kind of... They do not want to merge. They want to enjoy the company. That is the difference between... Both of them become liberated. Merging into the existence of God, that is also liberation. And to keep individuality and enjoy the company of the Lord, that is also liberation. Yes?

Woman: Therefore, may I say that the four other ones are what you call the demigods...?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are not liberated.

Woman: They are not liberated?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are just like delegated officers for maintaining this material existence. Just like sun. Sun is a demigod. Sun. The moon.
The moon is a demigod.

Woman: And what about the masters who are working...?

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Woman: The masters who are working the...?

Prabhupada: Master is the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, but there are different masters, or higher degrees that you were calling. You were mentioning before. The sound(?) of different degrees who are working on planets...?

Prabhupada: Yes, different degree. Just like everyone is servant of the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But did you...? That's not what you called...

Prabhupada: Degree. No degrees. Now suppose, suppose, take for example the sun. The chief, chief living entity or the chief man, or chief living being in the sun planet. Now his position and my position, there is vast difference. He has, he is maintaining such a planet and he is situated there as the chief man or the chief living being. So his degree of power is far, far greater than the degree of power here like President Johnson or something else. You see? So that degree of power does not make him that he's God. He's not God. He's also servant of God. Anyone, even Brahma, anyone. There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrta: ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya [Cc. Adi 5.142]. That the individual living entities, there are so many, multi, but all of them, they are servant of the Lord. There may be, their position may be upper or lower in different degrees, but that does not make them equal with the Lord. The Lord is different. That is also mentioned in the Patanjali yoga system. Lord is Supreme. He's the great. He's the greatest. Asamaurdhva. Nobody is equal with Him and nobody is greater than Him. That means nobody's equal with Him, nobody's greater than Him, everybody is lower than Him. So is that question solved?

Woman: Yes. Now you were using very often the name of demigods and therefore I...

Prabhupada: Now demigods, demigods are just like you and me. Demigods, just like you and me. But they have got a degree of power than me and you.
Woman: Now you just said the sun.

Prabhupada: Sun, yes. He's also a living...

Woman: The sun is a planet.

Prabhupada: Sun is a planet, but there is a controlling deity also.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: There is a control... Just like here, in this planet, when you go up, you see it is ball, but in this ball there are so many controlling deities here also. President Johnson, prime minister of India, this and that and so many things. But when you go up you see just like a ball. So when you come here you find... Similarly, from the distance of ninety millions of miles you can see the sun just like a ball, but it is not ball. It is a, it is a far, far greater than this planet, and there are cities and there men and there are persons and there are everything. But they are made up of fire. Their body's made of fire. Your body's made of earth. That is the difference. Just like in the water you cannot live because your body is made differently that you cannot live in the water. Similarly, the aquatics in the water, they cannot live in the land. Similarly, because I cannot live in the sun planet due to this, my body, that does not mean there are no living beings. There are living beings. After all, the whole material world is made of five elements, earth, water, fire, air and ether. Now these five elements, in some planet you'll find earth predominant. In some planet you'll find water predominant. In some planet you'll find fire predominant. In some planet you'll find air predominant. But that does not mean that there are no living entities. There are living entities. The sun planet is a planet where is, where fire is predominant. Now, according to medical science that by heat and fire of the germs are killed. But in the fire also there are living entities. Just like Dr. Mishra was giving the example the other day about opium. Now opium is a death poison. Death poison. But in the opium also you'll find some worms.

Woman: Some what?

Prabhupada: Worms.

Woman: Worms?

Prabhupada: Yes. How it is possible? They are also living entities. If I, if I take a drop of opium, I die. But they are living and they are eating and they are living there. So because it is impossible for me to eat opium and live, you cannot say that there are other livi..., that there cannot be no living entities there. Similarly you have experience that you cannot live in the fire. That does not mean that in the sun planet there is no living entities. There are living entities. Because in Bhagavad-gita you'll find that living soul, as it is, it is not burnt by fire. It is not burned by fire. Because it is spiritual. The material elements has no power to destroy it. It is not burnt by fire. So in every planet it is concluded that every planet there are living entities. There are intelligent beings. And because in the higher planets there are more intelligent persons, beings, they are called demigods. The demigods means they have got, practically, qualification almost equal to the Supreme Lord. They have got such qualification.

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Dee..? Deevas? Devas.

Woman: Devas.

Prabhupada: That is the Sanskrit word. Real deva means the Supreme Lord, and when you call devas... These devas, they are all obedient servant of the Lord. They are very powerful. So when you become obedient devotees of the Lord we can get such post. In the sun planet, in the moon planet, in the heavenly planets, in the Brahma planets. So the devotees of the Lord, they are not loser. They get more power. For controlling power. Therefore they are called devas, devas. Devas means those who are the... There are two words used in Sanskrit, devas and asuras. Asuras. Now the definition of these devas and asuras are like this: visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Asuras tad-viparyayah. Visnu-bhakta. Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devas. This is the difference between devas. Devas, devas and asuras does not mean that asura has got a very ugly face. No. Even a very beautiful man, he can be asura. He can be a... And even a very ugly man, he can be deva. Just like Hanuman. Hanuman was a beast. He was not even man. He was animal. He, he comes from the monkey species of life. But he's a great devotee of Lord Ramacandra. So he's deva. So visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva. Those who are unalloyed devotees of the Lord, they are called devas. And those who are against the obedience of the Lord, they are called asuras. Anyone. It does not mean human being, or the, anyone. But in the higher planets you'll find all the inhabitants there, they're all great devotees of the Lord. Therefore they are called devas, demigods. And therefore they have been entrusted with the management of this material world. Just like confidential persons are given responsible post in government. Similarly, because they are devotees of the Lord they have been awarded this post, to be sun-god, to be moon-god, to be Indra, heavenly god, to Brahma, like that, so many, Marici and so many... You see? Yes?

Woman: Are they working a lot with the vibrations of music?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: With music?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everything is there. Why do you think that only here in this planet everything is there and there is nothing? This is our foolishness. Just like you have never been to India, but...

Woman: Not yet.

Prabhupada: No, no. I am giving you an example. If you think that the Indians, they do not eat, they do not sleep, they do not marry, that is your madness.

Woman: That is my what?

Prabhupada: That is your madness. If you think that Indians do not eat or Indians... Because you have not seen them, but if you... As soon as you know they are also human beings like us... Just like as for my example. When I was in India I was thinking of America something wonderful.

Woman: Then you haven't seen everything yet.

Prabhupada: Now I see here there is not at all any difference. The only difference is that you people are fair complexioned, your bodies are white and they are colored or they are not so white. But there are white men also. In India you'll find varieties of color, beginning from this American, European color down to the black negro color. You find in India. We have so many colors. And actually I give you my frank admission that when I was in India I was thinking the Americans may be of different type of people or they may be thinking in otherwise. They may be... So, so many differences. But here I see there is no difference at all. No difference at all. Only some bodily features. Even I study the pigeons, I see, oh, this same pigeons are here, what, playing just like Indian pigeons. Even I see the sparrow. So there is no difference.

Woman: There is.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: There is. Besides the sparrows, the other birds, as a rule, here in America are bigger than the birds in Europe.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: The same kind of bird are bigger here.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I admit that. I admit that. They are stout and strong. They are stout and strong. Yes. The squirrel, I see. I saw the
squirrel in the park. Oh, they are also bigger.

Woman: They are bigger.

Prabhupada: They are bigger. That is also natural. You see. Just like in African people. They are taller. They are taller than the Aryan people, even in your, this black negroes, they are taller than American people. So there is little difference of course. That is all right. But on the primary facie, prima facie, there is no difference. Similarly, in the sun planet, in the moon planet, there are also human beings like us, and they are called devas because they are high, intellectual. They are all very powerful than ourself, and they have got different bodies with different power and everything. Otherwise, there is no question... Even great scientists like Dr. Meghanatha Sar(?) in India, he, he said that there is no reason to disbelieve that in other planets there is no life. How can you? Just like because you have not seen India you cannot say, "Oh, there, there is no living being. It is vacant." So these people are going to the moon planet. They are saying it is full of dust. It is full of clay, or something like that. All these foolishness. You see? That means they have not reached. Outside they take some photo and they come out.

Woman: They announced today on the radio they've seen a lot of flying saucers.

Prabhupada: Yes. Let them talk all nonsense. But we have got information that this moon planet is a very nice planet, and the inhabitants there, they are very intelligent and the people who perform pious work here in this planet, they are promoted, promoted to the moon planet. And it is very cold also. Just like your European countries and American countries because, due to... You have come from America. America, European countries, people are accustomed to drink because due to the cold climate. Indians are not accustomed. But your drinking is necessary thing in Europe. Similarly, this moon planet is so cold that they live by drinking soma-rasa. There is a kind of liquor which is called soma-rasa. Yes. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa, here, it is described in Ayur-veda. That soma-rasa preparation is there. If anyone can prepare that soma-rasa, and anyone can drink that soma-rasa, he becomes immortal. That means his duration of life increases. Increases. So anyway, these descriptions are there. So there are intelligent living beings there also.

Woman: What kind of bodies do they have?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: What kind of bodies...

Prabhupada: The body may be different. Just like your body is different from me.

Woman: Yes, but we're the same in...

Prabhupada: That does not mean, because you have got a different body, therefore you are not a living being. Or because I have got a different body from you, I am not a living being. So body... Because a living soul is not the body, he might have different body. That doesn't matter; that doesn't matter. Why should we consider, identify with the body? The whole question is there. The body, you'll find your body is different from animal body. Animal is different from human body. Or the so many difference of body. But the four principles of bodily wants, ahara... Ahara means requiring some foodstuff, and nidra, sleeping, and fearing and mating. These four principles you'll find in the birds, in the animals, in the human beings, or even the devatas, or gods, or everywhere you'll find, these four principles. The only difference between the animal and higher, developed consciousness living being is that they are God conscious. They accept the Supreme Lord. That makes the difference between lower animals and others.

I think we will stop here. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- New York, March 9, 1966