Prabhupada: You have got fan? Fan,
fan. (sings) Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. (devotees respond) So our
program is to worship the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda. This
is Krsna consciousness movement, find out who is the original person. Naturally,
everyone is anxious to find out the original person of a family, original person
of a society, original person of a nation, original person of humanity... You go
on, searching. But if you can find out the original person from whom everything
has come out, that is Brahman. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. The Vedanta-sutra
says Brahman, the Absolute Truth, is that from whom everything has emanated.
Very simple description. What is God, what is the Absolute Truth, very simple
definition -- the original person.
So this Krsna consciousness movement means to approach the original person. The original person is not dead, because everything emanates from the original person, so everything is working very nicely. The sun is rising, the moon is rising, the seasons are changing, so..., there is night, there is day, just in the order. So the function of the body of the original person is going on nicely. How you can say that God is dead? Just like in your body, when the physician finds by feeling your pulse that the heart beating is going on nicely, he does not declare that "This man is dead." He says, "Yes, he is alive." Similarly, if you are intelligent enough, you can feel the pulse of the universal body -- and it is going on nicely. So how you can say God is dead? God is never dead. It is rascal's version that God is dead -- unintelligent persons, persons who have no sense how to feel something dead or alive. One who has got the sense to feel how a thing is dead or alive, to understand, he'll never say God is dead. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah: [Bg. 4.9] "Any intelligent person who can simply understand how I take my birth and how I work," janma karma... Now, mark this word janma, birth; and karma, work. He never says janma mrtyu. Mrtyu means death. Everything that is born, that has death also. Anything. We haven't got any experience which is born does not die. This body is born; therefore it will die. The death is born with the birth of my body. I am increasing my age, number of years of my age, means I'm dying. But in this verse of Bhagavad-gita Krsna says janma karma but never says "My death." Death cannot take place. God is eternal. You also do not die. That I do not know. I simply change my body. So this is to be understood. Krsna consciousness science is a great science. It is stated...it is not a new thing. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita... Most of you, you are well acquainted with Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita, it does not accept that after the death of this body -- not exactly death -- after the annihilation, appearance or disappearance of this body, you or I do not die. Na hanyate. Na hanyate means "never dies" or "is never destroyed," even after the destruction of this body. This is the position.
Now this Krsna consciousness movement we have to understand through the teachings of Lord Caitanya. He is the... Five hundred years ago, He appeared in Bengal, a province of India, and He specifically preached Krsna consciousness movement. His mission is that anyone who is born in India should take this message of Krsna consciousness and distribute it all over the world. To execute that order we have come to your country. So my request is that you try to understand this Krsna consciousness movement with all your knowledge, scrutinizingly. Don't accept it blindly. Try to understand with your arguments, knowledge, logic, realization -- you are human being -- and you'll find it sublime, sublime, undoubtedly. We have published this book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and other books also, many books. So try to read them. And we have got our magazines, Back to Godhead. We are not sentimentalists, that we are simply dancing. The dancing has got great value; that, if you dance with us, you'll feel. It is not that some crazy fellows are dancing. No. The most intelligent persons, they are dancing. It is so nicely made that even a boy like here, he is a boy, he can take part. Universal. Join, chant Hare Krsna and dance, and you'll realize. Very simple method. You haven't got to understand any high standard of philosophy or jugglery of words, this or that. Simple thing. What is simple thing? God is great, everyone knows, and we are part and parcel of the great. So when we are combined with the great, we are also great. Just like your body, a small part of your body, a little finger or toe, that is also the same value of the whole body. But as soon as that small part or big part is separated from the body, it has no value. It has no value. This finger, a very small part of your body. If there is any pain, you spend thousands of dollars. You pay to the physician to cure the pain thousands of dollars, and when the physician says that "This finger has to be," what is called, "dislocated or cut off, separated, otherwise the whole body will be infected," so when this finger is cut off from your body, you don't care for it. No more value. Just try to understand. A typewriting machine, a small screw, when it is missing, your machine is not working nicely, you go to a repairing shop. He charges ten dollars. You pay immediately. That little screw, when it is out of that machine, it has not a value even one farthing. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of the Supreme. If we work with the Supreme, that means if we work in Krsna consciousness or God consciousness, that "I am part and parcel..." Just like this finger is working fully in consciousness of my body. Whenever there is little pain I can feel. Similarly, if you dovetail yourself in Krsna consciousness, you are living in your normal condition, your life is successful. And as soon as you are separated from Krsna consciousness, the whole trouble is there. The whole trouble is there. So there are many examples we cite every day in this class. So we have to accept this Krsna consciousness if we at all want to be happy and be situated in our normal condition. This is Krsna consciousness movement.
So we are reading the Teachings of Lord Caitanya. We have begun from our last meeting, and we shall again read it. You'll read it? Yes. It was began from page twenty-nine.
Tamala Krsna: Page twenty-nine, but where did you finish reading?
Prabhupada: Read it anywhere, that's all. Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Okay. "In the Bhagavad-gita we are informed that the constitutional nature of the individual entity is spirit soul. He is not matter. Therefore as spirit soul he is part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, the Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead. We also learn that it is the duty of the spirit soul to surrender, for only then he can be happy. The last instruction of the Bhagavad-gita is that the spirit soul is to surrender completely unto the Supreme Soul, Krsna, and in that way realize happiness. Here also Lord Caitanya is answering the questions of Sanatana, repeats the same truth, but without giving him information about the spirit soul which is already described in the Gita."
Prabhupada: Yes. The point is that what is the constitutional position of the spirit soul is very elaborately discussed in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita. Now the last instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, as Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. He has instructed to Arjuna all kinds of yoga system, all kinds of religious ritualistic process, sacrifice, and philosophical speculation, the constitutional position of this body, constitutional position of the soul. Everything He has described in the Bhagavad-gita. And at last He says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, because you are My very intimate and dear friend, therefore I say the most confidential part of Vedic knowledge." And what is that? "You simply surrender unto Me." That's all. People are not inclined to surrender; therefore he has to learn so many things. Just like a child, he has simply a feeling of surrender to the parents, he's happy. There is no need of learning philosophy how to live very happily. The child is completely dependent on the care of parents and he's happy. Simple philosophy. But because we have advanced in civilization, in knowledge, therefore we want to understand this simple philosophy in so many jugglery of words. That's all. So if you want to learn in jugglery of words, then this Krsna consciousness movement is not lacking. We have got volumes of books of philosophy. But if you accept this simple process, that we have to... God is great and we are part and parcel; therefore my duty is to serve and surrender unto God. That's all. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu, without discussing all the constitutional position, philosophy, knowledge, and so many other things, yoga system, He immediately begins that the constitutional position of the living entity is to serve the supreme whole. That is... That is the beginning of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teaching. That means where the teachings of Bhagavad-gita ended, Caitanya Mahaprabhu begins from that position. (aside:) Yes. Go on.
Tamala Krsna: "He begins from the point where Krsna ended His instruction. It is accepted by great devotees that Lord Caitanya is Krsna Himself, and from the point where He ended His instruction in the Gita, He now begins His instruction again to Sanatana. The Lord said to Sanatana, 'Your constitutional position is that you are pure living soul. This material body is not the identity of your real self, neither is your mind your real identity, nor your intelligence, nor is false ego the real identity of the self. Your identity is that you are the eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord Krsna.' "
Prabhupada: Now here is some important points, that in our self-realization, those who are grossly on the material platform, they think that this body, "I am this body, I am this body." Body means the senses; therefore my satisfaction means the satisfaction of the senses-sense gratification. This is the grossest form of self-realization. This body is also self. The body is self, the mind is self, and the soul is also self. Self, the synonym. The body and the mind and the soul, three of them are called self. Now in the grossest stage of our life we think that this body is the self. And in a subtler stage we think that the mind and the intelligence is the self. But actually, self is beyond this body, beyond this mind, beyond this intelligence. That is the position. Those who are grossly on the bodily concept of self-realization, they are materialists. And those who are on the concept of mind and intelligence, they are the philosophers and poets. They are philosophizing or giving us some idea in poetry, but their conception is still wrong. When you come to the point of spiritual platform, then it is called devotional service. That is being explained by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (aside:) Go on.
Tamala Krsna: " 'Your position is that you are transcendental.' "
Prabhupada: Transcendental. "You are beyond." This is explained in Bhagavad-gita:
indriyani parany ahur
indriyebhyah param manah
manasas tu para buddhir
yo buddheh paratas tu sah
[Bg. 3.42]
First of all, you realize this body. Body means the senses. But when you go further, we see the mind is the center of these sensual activities. Unless the mind is sound, we cannot act with our senses. So indriyebhyah param manah. So transcendental to the senses, mind is there, and transcendental to the mind, there is intelligence, and transcendental to the intelligence, there is soul. That we have to understand. (aside:) Go on.
Tamala Krsna: " 'The superior energy of Krsna is spiritual in constitution, and the external energy is material. You are between the material energy and the spiritual energy, and therefore your position is marginal. In other words, you belong to the marginal potency of Krsna. You are simultaneously one with and different from Krsna. Because you are spirit, therefore you are not different from Krsna, but because you are only a minute particle of Krsna, you are therefore different from Him.' "
Prabhupada: Now here is one word used, marginal potency. Marginal potency, the exact Sanskrit word is tatastha. Just like at the end of the land, the sea begins. So there is a marginal land. Just you go on the coast of the Pacific beach, you'll find some land. Sometimes it is covered by water and sometimes it is open land. This is marginal. Similarly, we spirit souls, although we are constitutionally one with God, but sometimes we are covered by maya and sometimes we are free. Therefore our position is marginal. When we understand our real position, then... The same... Just like the same example. Try to understand. On the beach you'll find a certain portion of land which is sometimes covered by water, and again it is land. Similarly we are sometimes covered by maya, the inferior energy, and sometimes we are free. So we have to maintain that free state. Just like in open land, there is no more water. If you come little far away from the sea water, then there is no more water; it is all land. Similarly, if you keep yourself from the material consciousness, come to the land of spiritual consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, then you keep your freedom. But if you keep yourself on the marginal position, then sometimes you'll be covered by maya and sometimes you'll be free. So that is our position. (aside:) Go on.
Tamala Krsna: "This simultaneous oneness and difference always exists in the relationship between the living entities and the Supreme Soul."
Prabhupada: Now this simultaneously one and different, just take the same example, land. Somebody says, "Oh, I saw that portion is water." And somebody says, "No. I saw that some portion is land." So simultaneously one and different. Simultaneously one and different. Our position is... Because we are spirit soul and Krsna, God, is spirit... He is whole spirit and I am particle of that spirit. Just like sun, the sun globe, and the sunshine, molecules of shining particles, they are also sunlight. The combination of those atomic particles of sunshine giving us the sunshine rays. So we are also shining just like the particles of the sun globe, but we are not equal to the complete sun. The glowing particles, molecules of the sunshine, is not equal in quantity with the sun globe, but in quality it is the same. Similarly, we living entities, we are minute particles of that supreme spirit soul, Krsna or God. Therefore we are also shine. We are of the same quality. Just like a small particle of gold is gold. It is not iron. Similarly, we are spirit soul; therefore we are one. But because I am minute... Just like the same example. The marginal portion being very small, it is being sometimes covered by the water. But the large portion of the land, that is without any water. Similarly, maya can cover the minute particles of the spirit soul, but maya cannot cover the supreme whole. Just like the same example, the sky, the sunshine. The sunshine, portion of the sunshine, is covered by cloud. But if you go by airplane, jet plane, above the cloud, you'll find the sunshine is without any cloud. The cloud cannot cover the whole sun. Similarly, maya cannot cover the supreme whole. Maya can cover the small particles of Brahman. The theory, the Mayavada theory that "I am now covered by maya. As soon as I am uncovered I become one with the whole..." We are one with the whole in the same way. Just like the sunshine and the sun globe, there is no difference in quality. Wherever there is sun, there is sunshine, but the small particles, the molecules of the sunshine, are never equal to the complete globe sun. That is being described by Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this chapter. (aside:) Go on.
Tamala Krsna: "The living entity is just like a molecular part of the sunshine, whereas Krsna is compared to the blazing shining sun. Lord Caitanya compared the living entities to the blazing sparks from the fire and the Supreme Lord to the blazing fire of the sun. The Lord cites in this connection a verse from Visnu Purana in which it is stated that everything that is manifested within this cosmic world is but an energy of the Supreme Lord. For example, as the fire emanating from one place exhibits its illumination and heat all around, so the Lord, although situated in one place in the spiritual world, manifests His different energies everywhere."
Prabhupada: Now, this is very simple. Try to understand. Just like this fire, this lamp, is located at a certain place but the illumination is distributed all over this room, similarly whatever you see, display of this cosmic manifestation, they are display of the energy of the Supreme Lord. The Supreme Lord is situated in one place. That we cite in our Brahma-samhita: govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. He's a person. Just like your President, Mr. Johnson, he's sitting in his room in Washington, but his power, his energy, is acting all over the state. If it is possible materially, similarly Krsna, or God, the Supreme Person, He is situated in His place, abode, Vaikuntha or kingdom of God, but His energy is acting. Another example, the sun. The sun, you can see sun is located at a certain place, but you see the sunshine is overflooding the whole universe. The sunshine is within your room. So similarly, whatever you are using, you yourself also, we are all display of the energy of the Supreme Lord. We are not different from Him. But when the cloud of maya or illusion covers my eye, we cannot see the sun. Similarly, when the material concept of life covers me, we cannot understand what is God. We say God is dead. So we have to uncover our eyes from this illusion. Then you'll see directly God: "Here is God." Yes. In the Brahma-samhita it is said,
premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.38]
That Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is Syamasundara. Syamasundara. Syama means blackish but very, very beautiful. That beautiful person, Supreme Person, Krsna, is being observed and seen by saintly persons always. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-
Thank you very much. So any question? First of all from audience. We invite questions, if you have any question, doubt, about the statements, you can inquire. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. Everything, if you are serious to understood, we should submit our doubtful questions and then understand. You see. Yes?
Young man: Does one attain a consciousness that is beyond words? Or, I dare say, is there a communication that is not the word itself but perhaps a vibration which is much like sound or sound itself? Perhaps reaching for the om. Is there a communication, something understood between you and myself, myself and my brother, others, all of us? Is there an experience perhaps where we're... Does it sound like "dong," "aung." Is there something else beside the verbal? Talk?
Prabhupada: Yes, this Hare Krsna.
Young man: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Young man: Could you elaborate? Could you tell me how this can be? How it can be all the time? Rather than to be a man, rather than to have to talk English alone or other languages? How to talk that one language?
Prabhupada: Well, sound can be vibrated in any language. It doesn't matter that Hare Krsna can be sounded in Sanskrit only. You can sound it in English tone also: "Hare Krsna." Is there any difficulty? These boys, they are also sounding in Hare Krsna. So there is no difficulty. It is the sound that matters. It doesn't matter who is sounding. Just like in piano, if you touch, there is "dung." It doesn't matter whether an American is striking or an Indian striking or a Hindu striking or Muslim striking, the sound is sound. Similarly, this piano, Hare Krsna, you just touch it and it will sound. That's all. Yes?
Young man (2): Do you sit and meditate alone? What do you do with your mind as it wanders? Do you think of something? Do you put it on something or do you let it wander by itself?
Prabhupada: First of all let me know what do you mean by meditation?
Young man (2): Sitting alone quietly.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Young man (2): Sitting alone quietly.
Prabhupada: Sitting alone quiet. Is it possible? Do you think it is possible?
Young man (2): If you listen to your own mind.
Prabhupada: Then mind is always acting.
Young man (2): It chatters to you.
Prabhupada: How can you sit, silent mind? Mind is always acting. Is there any experience that mind is not acting when you sit silently? When you sleep, the mind is acting. You are dreaming. This is the action of mind. So when do you find that your mind is silent?
Young man (2): That's what I was trying to ask you.
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore mind is never silent. You have to engage your mind to something. That is meditation.
Young man (2): What do you engage it to?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Krsna. We engage our mind to Krsna, the beautiful Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only simply engaging the mind, but engaging the mind in action with the senses. Because mind is acting with our senses. Your mind said, "Let us go to that newly started ISKCON Society," so your legs carried you here. So mind... Thinking, feeling, willing, these are the functions of the mind. So mind thinks, feels, and they works. So you have to fix up your mind not only thinking of Krsna, but also working for Krsna, feeling for Krsna. That is complete meditation. That is called samadhi. Your mind cannot go out. You have to engage your mind in such a way that the mind will think of Krsna, feel for Krsna, work for Krsna. That is complete meditation.
Young man (2): What do you do with your eyes? Close your eyes?
Prabhupada: Yes, eyes are one of the senses. Mind is the general sense, and under the governor general, there are particular commissioners or subordinate officers. So the eyes, the hand, the leg, the tongue, ten senses, they are working under the direction of the mind. So mind is expressed, manifested through the senses. Therefore unless you engage your senses in the same way as your mind is thinking, feeling, there is no perfection. There will be disturbance. If your mind is thinking of Krsna and your eyes are seeing something else, there will be disruption or contradiction. Therefore under the... You have to first of all fix up your mind in Krsna, and then all other senses will be engaged in the service of Krsna. That is bhakti.
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena hrsikesa-
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
Hrsika, hrsika means senses. When you engage your senses in the service of the master of the senses... Krsna is called Hrsikesa, or the master of the senses. Master of the senses means, try to understand. Just like this hand. The hand is working very nicely, but if the hand is paralyzed or Krsna withdraws the power, then your hand is useless. You cannot restore it. Therefore you are not master of your hand. You are thinking falsely that "I am master of my hand." But actually, you are not master. The master is Krsna. (aside:) I'll answer... Therefore when your senses will be engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is called bhakti, devotional service. Now the senses are engaged in my designation. I am thinking that "This body is meant for the satisfaction of my wife or my this or that," so many things, "my country, my society." This is designation. But when you come to the spiritual platform, you understand that "I am part and parcel of the Supreme; therefore my activities should be to satisfy the Supreme." That is bhakti. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], being liberated from all designation. When your senses are purified, and when that senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is called acting in Krsna consciousness. What is your question? So meditation, the engagement of mind, should be in that way. Then it will be perfect. Otherwise, the mind is so flickering and changing that if you don't fix up at a certain point... Fix up means... The mind is want to do something because the symptom of mind is thinking, feeling and willing. So you have to train your mind in such a way that you will think of Krsna, you'll feel for Krsna, you'll work for Krsna. Then it is samadhi. That is perfect meditation.
Young man (2): How does one train the mind?
Prabhupada: This is the training. You just engage yourself in activities of Krsna consciousness. This is practical. Just like chanting, the boy of ten years old, he's also engaged. His mind is concentrated on the vibration Hare Krsna. His other senses, legs or hand, they're working, dancing. So in this way we have to practice our mind, our senses always engaged in Krsna consciousness. That will make you perfect. And that is possible by everyone. You don't require to sit down at a place to artificially meditate upon something. As soon as you chant Hare Krsna, immediately your mind is diverted, immediately you remember Krsna, instruction of Krsna, work of Krsna, everything. That requires practice.
Young man (2): Since you are a ray of the sun, so to speak...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Young man (2): Could you think of yourself? And when you think, you are thinking of Krsna?
Prabhupada: Why not? I am individual... Although I am small, but I am individual. I have got all the power of thinking, feeling, willing. We are doing that. We are individual. You have come here by your individual will. Nobody has forced you. If you like, you can go. Somebody comes here, somebody never comes, somebody comes daily. Why? Even you are small, you have got individuality. Even in this conditioned state, you are so free, so much free. And when you are unconditioned, purely spirit, you do not know how much freedom you have got. It doesn't matter you are small, but you are a spiritual spark. Don't you see that a small spiritual spark which no physician, no medical science has still discovered, where is the soul, but the soul is there. That is a fact. As soon as the soul is gone from this body, it is useless. Find out what is that important particle. That is not possible, because it is so small that your, with these material eyes or microscope or any scope you cannot find out. Therefore they say there is no soul. But they cannot explain what is gone. Even that small particle of spiritual soul is so powerful that as long as it is within this body, it keeps it fresh, nice, beautiful. And as soon as it is gone, immediately it becomes to decompose. Just see. Just like a drug, injection. A little, one grain, it keeps fit. It is something like that, it is so powerful. You do not know what is the power of that soul. That you have to learn. Then that is self-realization. This meditation process, sitting in a silent place, is recommended in the grossest stage of bodily concept of life. Let one thing, meditate, "Am I this body?" then make analysis. You'll see, "No. I am not this body. I am different from this body." Then further meditation: "If I am not this body, then the bodily actions, how it is being done?" It is being done for that presence of that small particle, myself. How the body is growing? Because on account of presence. Just like this boy, this boy has got a small stature of body. Now, this boy will grow a very stout and strong body in his young age, as at the age of twenty-four years. Now, this body will go, another body will come. How it is being possible? On account of presence of the small particle of the soul. But if that particle of the soul is taken away or gone away, this body no more will increase or change. These are the subject matter of meditation. But when you come to the point of understanding that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul," then the next stage will be "What is the function of the soul?" That function of soul is Krsna consciousness, working in Krsna consciousness. So in the present age one has to take directly to the function of the soul; then other things will automatically come. It is not possible at the present moment that you can go to a secluded place and peacefully sit there and meditate upon... It is not possible in this age. It is impossible. If you try artificially, it will be failure. Therefore you have to take this process,
harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
In this age of Kali, there is no other alternative for self-realization than this chanting Hare Krsna. That is the practical, real fact.
Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a spiritual master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing in the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?
Prabhupada: I don't follow.
Tamala Krsna: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus's words, reach the...
Prabhupada: When you read Bible, you follow spiritual master. How can you say without? As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ, that means you are following spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without spiritual master?
Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible," when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. So any case, you have to follow a spiritual master. There cannot be the question without spiritual master. Is that clear?
Madhudvisa: I mean like we couldn't understand the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita without your help, without your presentation.
Prabhupada: Similarly, you have to understand Bible with the help of the priest in the church.
Madhudvisa: Yes. But is he receiving a good interpretation from his disciplic succession or his bishop? Because there seems to be some kind of a discrepancy in the interpretation of the Bible. There's many different sects of Christianity that interpret the Bible in different ways.
Prabhupada: Of course, there cannot be any interpretation in the Bible. Then there is no authority of Bible. If you interpret something... Just like "Call a spade a spade." So if you call something else, that is a different thing. He's not spiritual master. Just like this is watch. Everybody has called it watch, and if I call it spectacle, then what is the value of my being spiritual master? I'm misleading. (laughter) It is watch, that I must say. So when there is misinterpretation, he's not a bona fide spiritual master. He's not spiritual master, what is called a bona fide. If I want to teach you how to see this watch, I can say that "This is called watch and this is called hand and this is called time indication; this is, this called...," so that is nice. And if I say that "Everybody says it is watch. I say it is spectacle," then what kind of a spiritual master I am? Reject him immediately. That intelligence you must have, who is a pseudo spiritual master or real spiritual master. Otherwise you'll be cheated. And that is being done. Everyone is interpreting in his own way. The Bhagavad-gita, there are thousands of editions, and they have tried to interpret in their own way, all nonsense. They should be all thrown away. Simply you have to read Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then you'll understand. There is no question of interpretation. Then the authority is gone. As soon as you interpret, then there is no authority. Lawbook. Do you mean to say in the court if you say before the judge, "My dear lord, I interpret this passage in this way," will it be accepted? The judge will at once say, "Who are you to interpret? You have no right." Then what is the authority of this lawbook if everyone comes, "I interpret in this way"? And interpretation when required? When a thing is not understood. If I say, "It is watch," and everyone understands that "This is watch, yes," then where is the opportunity of interpreting that this is spectacle? If anyone can understand the clear passage... Just like in the Bible, "God said, 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation." Where is the question of interpretation? Yes, God created. You cannot create. Where is the opportunity of interpretation? So unnecessary interpretation is not required and that is not bona fide, and those who are interpreting unnecessarily, they should be rejected immediately. Immediately, without any consideration. God said, "Let there be creation." So there was creation. Simple thing. Where is the question of interpretation? What can be the interpretation here? Suggest that this can be interpretation. Am I right? In the beginning of the Bible it is said like that? "God said, 'Let there be creation,' and there was creation. So what is your interpretation? Tell me what is your interpretation. Is there any possibility of interpretation? Can any one of you suggest? Then where is the opportunity of interpretation? One can explain. That is different thing, but the fact that God created, that will remain. That you cannot change. Now, how that creative process took place, that is explained in Bhagavatam: First of all, there was sky, then there was sound, then there was this, that. This is the process of creation, that is another thing. But the fact, the primary fact that God created, that will remain at any circumstances. Not the rascal scientist says, "Oh, there was a chunk and it is split up, and there was these planets. Perhaps this and likely this," all this nonsense. They'll simply interpret, "likely," "perhaps." That is not science -- "likely," "perhaps." Why perhaps? Here is clear statement, "God created." That's all. Finish. Yes.
Mahapurusa: Prabhupada, is there any contradiction, because Lord Jesus Christ and Lord Caitanya both appeared in the Kali-yuga and Lord Jesus Christ said that "The only way to God is through me. Just believe in me or surrender to me," and Lord Caitanya taught that hari-nama is the only means of spiritual realization in this age?
Prabhupada: So where do you find the difference? If Lord Jesus Christ says, "Through me," that means he's representative of God, and hari-nama is God. So either through the representative of God or God, the same thing. God and God's representative, there is no difference. Even in these ordinary dealings, if I send some representative, if he signs something on my behalf, I have to accept that, because he is my representative. Similarly, God has to be approached through God or through His representative. The same thing. Only the difference may be of understanding. Because Lord Jesus Christ spoke to a society that was not very much advanced. You can understand that such a great personality, God conscious person, was crucified. Just see the condition of the society. In other words, they were low-grade society. So they were not able to understand the whole philosophy of God. That is sufficient. "God created. Just take it." They were not intelligent to understand how the creation took place. Had they been intelligent, they would not have crucified such a great personality like Jesus Christ. So we have to understand what is the condition of the society. Just like in the Koran it is said by Muhammad that "From this day you have no sex intercourse with your mother." Just find out the condition of the society. So we have to take account of the time, circumstances, society, and then preaching. So to society like that it is not possible to understand the high philosophical things as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. But the primary fact, the authority is God, that is accepted both in Bible and Bhagavad-gita. Bible begins, "God is the supreme authority," and Bhagavad-gita concludes, "You surrender." Where is the difference? Simply the description is according to the time, society, and place and people. That's all. They are not Arjuna. You see? So the things to be understood by Arjuna is not possible by the persons who had crucified Lord Jesus Christ. You have to study in that light. The same thing. A dictionary, a pocket dictionary, child's dictionary, and the dictionary, international dictionary, both of them dictionary, but the value is different. That dictionary is meant for a class of children, and that dictionary is meant for high scholars. But none of them you can say it is not dictionary. That you cannot say. Both of them are dictionaries. So we have to take consideration of the time, place, persons, everything. Just like Lord Buddha, he simply said that "Stop this nonsense animal killing." That was his propaganda. They were so low-grade people, simply taking pleasure in animal killing. So in order to elevate them, Lord Buddha wanted to stop this nonsense: "Please stop killing." So in every time a different representative of God or God comes to teach people at different circumstances. So according to the circumstances there may be some difference in explanation, but the primary factor remains the same. Lord Buddha said, "All right, there is no God, but you surrender to me." Then where is the difference? That means one has to accept the authority of God either this way or that way.
Child: Um, when Lord Buddha was here, did he sit down and meditate?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Child: Well, I thought that in this age you can't meditate, but Lord Buddha, who was God's son, he meditated.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Child: But that wasn't the age of Kali?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Child: It was?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Child: Then how can you meditate?
Prabhupada: Very good. (much laughter) Therefore we are better than Buddha. We say meditation is not possible. Do you see? Do you understand now? Lord Buddha said, "Meditate," but the followers of the Lord Buddha could not. They failed. We are giving new light, that "Meditation will fail. You take this." Is that clear? Yes. If somebody has said you something, and if you are failure, then I say, "You don't do this. Take this. It will be nice." Just like you are a child, you cannot meditate, but you can dance and chant Hare Krsna. Lord Buddha knew that they cannot meditate. You are a very intelligent boy. But in order to stop their nonsense, he simply said, "Sit down. Meditate." That's all. (laughter) Just like a naughty boy, he's creating mischief. His parent says, "My dear John, you sit down here." He knows that he cannot sit down, but for the time being he'll sit down. The father knows that he'll not sit down, but at least for the time being let him stop these mischievous activities. All right. Chant Hare Krsna. Chant. (kirtana) (end)
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Lecture -- Seattle, October 2, 1968
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
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