"You Must Be Punished"

Bhubanesvara, January 29, 1977



Prabhupada: Yes, tasteful. [break] By accident, huh? The rascal has said. (train whistle) [break] ...scientist?

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: If by chance everything is taking place, what is the use of science?

Satsvarupa: They don't say their work is by chance, but ultimately everything is by chance. But they have...

Prabhupada: That is a very good explanation. (chuckles)

Bhagavata: Isaac Newton disproved that theory.

Prabhupada: Hm. Chance. [break]

Hari-sauri: So one man, he did a paper called "Life Has No Meaning."

Prabhupada: Accha? [break]

Satsvarupa: That means dead.(?) (laughter)

Prabhupada: Life has no meaning, but the lifeless man's words have meaning.

Satsvarupa: We have to give life meaning, and that's the glory of man, they say, that he finds the meaning, gives his own meaning to the meaningless. [break]

Prabhupada: "Life has no meaning," eh?

Hari-sauri: To get the Nobel Prize.

Satsvarupa: They say you should face up to that uncertainty or no meaning and then just live your life in that... Without taking some meaning from the sastra or anybody, you just...

Prabhupada: Simply take from him.

Satsvarupa: Each person has to find within himself the meaning.

Prabhupada: Then why you are distributing meaning and take Nobel Prize? Let him do in his own way. Why you are anxious to give some meaning?

Hari-sauri: Yes. That's the same idea as Krishnamurti. You don't need a guru, but he's written thirteen books to tell everyone.

Prabhupada: He has written thirteen books?

Hari-sauri: Something like that.

Bhagavata: At the end of his book he said, "When you're finished reading it, throw it away."

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bhagavata: When you're finished reading this book you should throw it away.

Hari-sauri: 'Cause you don't actually need it.

Satsvarupa: And that philosopher of this philosophy, Camus, he said, "Don't try to lead me because I may not want to follow you, and don't follow me because I am not capable of leading you. Just walk beside me and be my friend." So he said by writing his books he was not trying to lead other people but just trying to free them from following falsely any absolute philosophy.

Prabhupada: Then he has to follow you because by taking your instruction I shall stop following others; that means I'll have to follow you. So what is the benefit? Instead of following others, I have to follow you? My following is there. That is not stopped.

Satsvarupa: They claim they don't want to be leaders, but actually they do.

Prabhupada: That means rascal. What he says, that is contradictory. That means rascal.

Prthu-putra: But he commit suicide at the end of his life, Camus, yes. He's a philosopher, a French philosopher. He commit suicide at the end of his life. Can you believe that?

Passerby: Jaya!

Prabhupada: Jaya. [break]

Satsvarupa: You were asking yesterday what are some of the charges that the opposing party makes against us. That's another one, that we follow absolute authority, your authority and also in the temples, that the temple president or leaders, they have authority, and this is not healthy psychology, that we should...

Prabhupada: Why you come to pose your authority? If authority is not good, then why do you come to instruct your authority? Hm? The same thing, eh, change from one authority to another authority.

Satsvarupa: But I don't say you have to accept me absolutely as...

Prabhupada: Then why do you speak nonsense then, if I haven't got to accept you? What is the use of speaking all nonsense? If nobody accepts you, then why do you talk nonsense? Somebody's selling something, and if he says, "Don't purchase it," then what is the use of... (laughs) All contradiction. After all, they are nonsense.

Satsvarupa: They think that by surrendering to the spiritual master, if many people do this, it will be very dangerous because they won't think for themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes, that's all right. But you ask to surrender to you, so why shall I not surrender to my spiritual master? What is the use of changing surrendering?

Satsvarupa: Well, at least if we don't have absolute authority, I may tell you something and if it's not good, you don't have to follow me.

Prabhupada: So why do you speak nonsense, the same thing, if I haven't got to follow you? Why you waste your time and waste my time?

Hari-sauri: If what he's saying has no value, then why should he speak?

Prabhupada: Then why do you waste your time?

Satsvarupa: Relative value.

Prabhupada: That I have already got.

Satsvarupa: And that's all there is, they say.

Prabhupada: Already I have got relative value.

Devotee (1): They say that each man has his own life to live so he can take the best from many authorities. He can say, "Well, I like some of what you are saying and some of what someone else is saying, so I can take what's best for me in my life."

Prabhupada: But if I find in one place the best, why shall I take so much trouble? Why do you induce me to go here and there if I get in one place everything?

Satsvarupa: That's what we found.

Hari-sauri: If I like everything you're saying, then why shouldn't I accept that?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: And why should they object if we decide to surrender to one authority?

Prabhupada: They are asking surrender.

Hari-sauri: They're actually envious because they want everybody to follow their idea of going here and there.

Satsvarupa: One person said, "This kind of thing reminds me of Hitler's Germany. If there's too much authority or blind following, it's not healthy."

Prabhupada: No, too much authority if the authority is wrong... But if the authority is right, then it is very better to submit in one place and get everything. Just like we go to some supermarket. We get everything there, we go there.

Hari-sauri: And there's no question of blind following either.

Prabhupada: No.

Hari-sauri: Otherwise why would we distribute so many books?

Satsvarupa: I went to one professor who refused to help us, and he said the reason is... Although we may be being persecuted now and we're a small movement, by reading our books and talking to the devotees, he thinks that if we ever did become powerful we would also become intolerant and we would not allow people to have any other religion. So he said, "Although you're small, I'm afraid to help you."

Prabhupada: That means he does not understand us.

Satsvarupa: Is it a fact that if Krsna consciousness was the main power, would people be allowed to...?

Prabhupada: Which way? Which way? This way?

Satsvarupa: In the Vedic culture, are people allowed to follow any other belief? In a society where there is Krsna conscious king or president, say someone doesn't want to be a devotee. What happens to him?

Prabhupada: Devotee... Unless one is devotee, he cannot become Krsna conscious. Imam rajarsayo... Means at king, the same time...

Satsvarupa: No. The king, if the king is a devotee, but one of the subjects says, "I still don't believe in Krsna, but I want to live here also."

Prabhupada: So king has the power to chastise him. Just like if this child says, "I don't believe in education," shall I have to accept? He must be punished. He's a child. He can say, "Father, I don't believe in education. Let me play." Will the father allow? Chastise him. That is king's duty.

Devotee (1): So if someone wanted to be, say, a Christian in the Krsna conscious..., a society led by a Krsna conscious person, if someone wanted to be a Christian, would he be chastised?

Prabhupada: First of all, whether Christian is religion or, imperfect thing, we have to see that. The father does not chastise always. When the son does wrong, then he chastises. Otherwise why shall he chastise? Christian means if they... Religion means one who believes in God and abides by the order of God. That's his religion.

Satsvarupa: So if they chanted Christos and stopped eating meat but they still wanted to follow the Bible...

Prabhupada: No, Bible... But if they follow Bible, that is religion, approved. But they do not follow. Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." They are killing. So what kind of Christian he is? He's a nonsense.

Satsvarupa: They should be chastised.

Prabhupada: Yes. They should be punished. That is the duty of the king. You follow any bona fide religion; you get all protection. But you don't follow; you must be chastised. That is king's duty. A king has no objection whether you are following Christian method or Hindu method. It doesn't matter. But you must have some religion. If you have no religion, then you are animal. You must be chastised. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Religion means you believe in God and love Him. That's all, three words, religion. "You believe in God" means know God, what is God. And love Him. That's all. This is religion. So it doesn't matter whether you understand God through Christian method or Hindu method. But you love God and you abide by the orders of God. Then you are religious. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means, religion means, the words of God. So you must know what is God, and you must know what does He say. Then you are religious. It doesn't matter what it is, Christian and Hindu. Gold is gold. Whether you purchase it from a Muhammadan shop or Hindu shop or Christian shop, it doesn't matter. You must get gold. That's all. So whether you have got God? If you have got some fictitious God, then you must learn what is God. What is that? You do not know God, so you must learn what is God. If you refuse to learn, then you must be punished. And if you know God, then it is all right. If you do not know, then you must learn. If you refuse to learn, must be punished. That's all.

Devotee (1): What is the test we can understand someone... If someone says, "I know God," then how can we...

Prabhupada: Say what is God. Say what is God. What do you mean by God?

Devotee (1): "God is the force moving the universe," he says.

Prabhupada: Then that means you do not know. Force... A child can also see the force. But behind the force, who is there? Whenever there is force, there must be one person forceful who is forcing. You know that?

Devotee (1): Well, I am in no position to see.

Prabhupada: That's right. Then learn it from me. Otherwise, if you refuse, then you must be punished. That is my duty.

Hari-sauri: You were just saying that a person who's not religious, he's no better than an animal, but he might argue that even the animals have a right to live undisturbed.

Prabhupada: No, animal... Right to live with animal is subjected to be punished, just to live rightly. Suppose a cow comes with his horn like that. He must be punished immediately, the atrocity.(?) Then he'll be corrected.

Hari-sauri: But there are so many animals living in the jungle who don't...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. No, jungle, we have no business to go there. We have rejected jungle. Let them live there. But in the human society, if the animal disturbs, it must be punished -- with stick.

Satsvarupa: What about say a Buddhist who practices ahimsa...?

Prabhupada: Now, Buddhist... I say there is no question of "Buddhist," "Christian." One must know what is God.

Satsvarupa: But he would say, "I follow our leader, and we don't believe in the Personality of Godhead."

Prabhupada: But if you follow... Then leader is a wrong person. You cannot follow. You must follow the right leader.

Hari-sauri: One cannot say that he does not believe in the power of the state.

Prabhupada: Then that is not leadership. That is misleader. These are very intelligent questions, nice. King means he has to see that the citizens are doing nicely, and that is king's duty.

Bhagavata: The king is like a father.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated. Lord Ramacandra treated His subjects as sons and they also treated Lord Ramacandra as father. That is the relationship between the citizens and the king-father and son.

Bhagavata: The chastisement that the king gives...

Prabhupada: That is out of love.

Bhagavata: Out of love.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not by enviousness. Chastisement means correction. He's in the wrong way; he is corrected to the right way. So gradually you have to take the power of the king to correct the whole human society. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. That is Krsna's business, to give protection to the right person and to chastise the wrong person, two things required, side by side. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. And dharma-samsthapanarthaya. Three, another. By chastising the wrongdoer and by giving protection to the right man, and then establish what is real religion. And then Krsna's mission, Krsna consciousness, is perfect. Three things: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam, dharma-samsthapanarthaya yuge yuge sambhavami. This is Krsna's business. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, everything will be nice, everything.

Satsvarupa: Nowadays coming to power usually means some violent revolution or political maneuvers.

Prabhupada: They are trying also to correct, but they do not know how to correct. That is the defect. And therefore we take this authority, that "Here everything is correct." Everyone is trying to remodel, but they do not know how to remodel. Hare Krsna. [break] (in car)

Prthu-putra: ...but he's not writing books himself. It's all people. They hear his conferences, they collect all his conferences, and they write for him. He never wrote any books himself, Krishnamurti.

Hari-sauri: No, I read a book he wrote. [break] A friend recommended it to me. He said he was very exuberant. He said he'd found a book you could read and throw away at the end. So out of curiosity, I started to read...

Prabhupada: So why shall I take the trouble? I throw it immediately. (laughter)

Hari-sauri: I got the book, and I... There was one chapter called, "Does God Exist?" something like that. So I turned to that one first. And after I read the first paragraph, I threw the book out, (laughs) because he was saying, "Well, God exists if you believe He exists. And if you don't believe He exists, then He doesn't exist."

Prabhupada: So it depends on me. God's existence depends on me.

Hari-sauri: Yeah. So I thought, "Well, if he's leaving it up to me to decide..." I was buying the book to try and find some information. So what was the...? So I couldn't see the value in the thing. [break]

Prabhupada: ...all the clubs, they...

Satsvarupa: Social.

Prthu-putra: Lions and Rotary. Very often we have engagements in these clubs, and they always drink and do their nonsense. [break]

Prabhupada: They have "mation." What is that? "Cremation"? [break]

Satsvarupa: This year in the United States several temples had very good success by advertising a cooking class in the college, because many times the students, they don't want to come when they see Bhagavad-gita or bhakti-yoga. But they would see "Indian Cooking," and they would go, and in the class they would teach how to make cooking, but then they would preach, "And so this food should be offered to God, and this is the Bhagavad-gita." In this way it was much...

Prabhupada: Very good. This is very nice.

Prthu-putra: Yes. We had also classes like this in Paris. People were coming just to learn how to cook. And in that way they could hear the philosophy.

Gargamuni: Prabhupada, these are the vehicles that I can get for three thousand rupees.

Prabhupada: Then you have to repair.

Gargamuni: Yes, but still, this vehicle, if it was being sold... [break]

Prabhupada: Authority is sufficient. And if he's imperfect, he cannot be authority. So change of authority means everyone is imperfect, so why shall I do like that?

Satsvarupa: That's even... That's their philosophy. There's a saying, "Nobody's perfect."

Prabhupada: No. That you do not know, who is perfect. That is your ignorance. We know. If I know who is perfect, why shall I take your advice, "Nobody is perfect"? Krsna is perfect. I know from authorities, from perfect persons.

Hari-sauri: Then they might argue that "I have my authority, and I'm happy to live by it."

Prabhupada: But you do not believe in authority. You say, "Nobody is perfect." How you get, have, authority? Your statement is "Nobody is perfect," so how you can get?

Hari-sauri: But as far as my own happiness goes...

Prabhupada: You are unhappy.

Prthu-putra: So then the question is... After Arjuna heard the whole Bhagavad-gita and understood it, when he engaged in the battlefield, still, when he heard that Abhimanyu, his son, died, he was very agitated again and...

Prabhupada: So that is natural. If my sons dies, I will not be agitated? What is the wrong there?

Prthu-putra: Well, one advocate asked me this in Allahabad.

Prabhupada: That is temporary. That is temporary, but it is natural. Suppose if I prick you, you feel some pain, but that is temporary. Agamapayinah anityah. They come and go.

Hari-sauri: Well, you may say that I'm unhappy with the authority I've got now, but if you force me to accept Krsna consciousness when I don't want it, then that will also make me unhappy.

Prabhupada: No, if it is right thing, then I am right to force you.

Satsvarupa: This is against our democratic spirit in the West. It...

Prabhupada: Democratic means "demoncratic."

Satsvarupa: That's why they revolted against the kings, so that they wouldn't have to be forced. "Give me liberty or give me death."

Hari-sauri: But under that banner of saying "This is good for you," you can force me to do all kinds of things.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is king's duty. Then force. Otherwise why there is military force? (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- January 29, 1977, Bhuvanesvara