Indian woman: (indistinct) When he
used to be married he wrote some songs, he used to practice to sing, he used to
chant and he used to cry.Dr. Sukla: Of course, first we were talking about
Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two different personalities and two
different paths.
Indian woman: Yes, but I thought Ramakrishna... Many times I
get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't
say rascal." I don't read him, but he inspired me so much. And I don't know
what's wrong. Am I wrong or...?
Prabhupada: Now what is the philosophy of
Ramakrishna?
Indian woman: He does not say that Krsna is God. (indistinct)
and I was very young at that time.
Prabhupada: If you want to discuss, there
is points of discussion. (laughs) Yes. He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone
knows it. Do you know that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to
that?
Dr. Sukla: No. He said, "I'm Rama and Krsna both."
Prabhupada: But
he realized by worshiping Kali. (laughter)
Devotee: ...he dressed up as
Radharani too.
Prabhupada: So do you agree to that? Then how you appreciate
it? Indian woman: No, I don't appreciate it.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is a
common sense. He, later on, he became God, by worshiping Kali, is it not?
Dr.
Sukla: He was cursed by Kali.
Prabhupada: No, he was a big worshiper of Kali.
And he was meat-eater also, Ma Kali's prasada, that unless one eats that
prasadam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his position, that he worshiped
Kali, and later on by worshiping Kali... His picture is there, mother Kali's
embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata pat: "Whatever path you take,
accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you think it is all right? He
worshiped Kali and he said yata mata tata pat. You agree to this? Now,
Ramakrishna says yata mata tata pat. And Krsna says... He became Ramakrishna,
identifying himself with Krsna. And Krsna said mam ekam, and now he's becoming
Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Just see. When he's actual Krsna, he says mam
ekam, and when he became imitation Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna has
changed his views. (laughter) Just see, this foolishness is going on.
Dr.
Sukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of deranged, of a deranged mind.
(laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the proof.
Dr. Sukla: Yes, because he
was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking, he was going from one
village to another village through the paddy fields, and the clouds were very
thick and thunder and lightning, and he writes that he saw Kali, and I have a
friend in England, Carl Wilson, who has done some work on Ramakrishna, he
believes that at that very moment...
Prabhupada: These are miracles, that's
all. It has no value. People are after miracles. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is
said kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante 'nya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are
worshipers of other demigods, they are hrta-jnanah. Hrta-jnanah. Srila
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his comment, hrta-jnanah nasta buddhayah,
one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali he is to be
considered as hrta-jnanah, one who has lost his intelligence -- and he becomes
God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God. With
that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost
intelligence, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna says mam ekam. Sarva dharman
parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Krsna is speaking,
yata mata tata pat. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how
he gave up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know
everything. So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of
sastra.
yah sastra vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama karatah
na sa siddhim
avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
[Bg. 16.23]
If you have no
knowledge of the sastra, then you'll never be successful in your spiritual life,
what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not possible.
Indian woman:
Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple?
Prabhupada: I'm talking of this
Ramakrishna particularly. There is no sastra siddha. Whimsical, sentiment,
that's all. So far his yata mata tata pat is concerned, at last he proposed,
"Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have to eat cow's
flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in Calcutta?
Daksinesvari. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because it is
temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So they are
taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he wanted to
take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I shall now
practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I want your
permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but if you ask
this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this permission." Then he
stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical.
Dr. Sukla: We have
another mentally retarded person in India, Sai Baba.
Prabhupada: Yes,
magic.
Pusta Krsna: We have that newspaper from South Africa.
Prabhupada:
Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want this
magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Krsna, we are
preaching Krsna consciousness, "Sir, Krsna says like this, you do like that,"
that's all. If you like, you can do; otherwise let us do our own business. We
don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in the
Bhagavad-gita. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's all.
(Bengali) Krsna says that He is Supreme, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So
we are preaching, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme," that's all.
Dr. Sukla:
Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success.
Prabhupada: Yes, people
say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I
do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated.
That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But
I am certain that I have not adulterated what Krsna has said. That's all. And I
study everything by the crucial test of Krsna's teaching. That's all. Krsna
says:
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta
jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
As soon as we see that
somebody is not Krsna conscious or Krsna's devotee, I take them immediately he's
a duskrtina, he's a mudha, he's a naradhama. "Oh, he's educated!"
mayayapahrta-jnana. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here
is a mayayapahrta-jnana. That's all. Asuram bhavam asritah. Because he denies to
accept Krsna, he must be within this group. Duskrtina, mudha, naradhama,
mayayapahrta-jnana. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that,
that "Here is a duskrtina," that's all.
Dr. Sukla: Tulasi dasa has also said
that who is not God, Krsna, conscious, you should treat them like your
enemy.
Prabhupada: That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, that asat-sanga
tyaga vaisnava acara. The Vaisnava's behavior is to give up bad company. Who is
bad? Next question will be that "I have to give up the bad company. Who is bad?"
Then He says, next line: asat stri sangi 'krsnabhakta' ara. Two words. Those who
are too much attached to woman and those who are not devotees of Krsna, they are
bad. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says give up the company of these two bad men,
that's all. That is Vaisnava. So everything is there. If you simply follow with
sincerity, then Krsna is pleased. As Arjuna says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava
[Bg. 18.73]." That's all. He becomes perfect. And Krsna immediately accepts, na
ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69]. He becomes immediately
recognized by Krsna. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg
18.68]. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69].
Priya-krttamah, superlative. Priya-krt, priya-krtara, priya-krttamah. So let us
follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita as it is, our life will be perfect. That
is a fact. Don't divert your attention here and there.
Devotee: Prabhupada,
you were a chemist before, but I think you are the greatest alchemist to have
taken so many leaden souls and turned them into golden Vaisnavas. Perhaps you
can even transform them (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So Krsna is giving us
facilities to preach this cult. Everywhere we have got very, very palatial
buildings to accommodate devotees. Now we have got here a very nice place,
accommodate devotees. Everywhere we have got. In Bombay we are getting the best
temple in India. We are spending crores of rupees, Krsna is giving us money. So
I started the business with forty rupees. That was also not American currency.
They allowed me to bring forty rupees. So when I was getting off the ship I
asked the captain, "I have brought these forty rupees, which will not be
accepted here, so you take." At that time three books I had, the first, second
and third volume. So I asked him that "You purchase. Give me some dollars." So
he asked, "What is the price?" "Sixteen dollars." So he gave me twenty dollars,
and I delivered them. With that twenty dollars I got out down on the land of
America, and that forty rupees. So I did not know where to go, where to stay. So
Krsna is giving us all facilities, and these American boys are helping. I think
those who are Indians, they should join this movement sincerely and preach more
vigorously. People will be benefited -- this is real substance. Otherwise people
are being misguided, so many things going on. Transcendental meditation, the,
what is called? No, another. So many. Actually, speaking for the last at least
two hundred years, many swamis, people came here, but not a single person was
converted to become a devotee of Krsna. That is history. What do you think,
Sukla? You have studied. So many swamis, yogis, scholars came, and they spoke on
Bhagavad-gita and other, but not a single person became a devotee of
Krsna.
Dr. Sukla: I think they try to be impersonal.
Prabhupada: Whatever
it may be. They are supposed to be great personalities, but not a single person
was converted.
Dr. Sukla: (indistinct) ...he was asked who is such a master.
He pointed out could not answer who can be such a master. He posed himself as a
spiritual master.
Prabhupada: So here is an opportunity to preach real
India's traditional culture. So those who are Indians present here, they should
cooperate. They should not mislead further.
Dr. Sukla: We have started
teaching your Gita at Georgetown University, where I teach. Before we had, we
have two years course of Sanskrit, and we had some excerpts from Mahabharata and
some Panca-tantra and so on, but there was no Gita. So I decided and we were
using the entire Gita for the second year. Your contributions can't be
duplicated.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much.
Dr. Sukla: And same thing
with Bhagavatam. We all know what a great book that is, and what I really
appreciate about the whole thing is, number one, that there are no misprints in
the book. So that's a great delight. Especially, for people who do not know
Sanskrit, for them, there's no difference between the wheat and the germ that
comes with it. The translations are very accurate. So it's real scholarship
there. And people who were not aware of this Krsna consciousness, they know that
if the intellect is so powerful, the spirit must be powerful too. Our library,
of course, has several copies, and our bookstore has almost all
the...
Prabhupada: All over the world they have given standing order.
(laughter)
Dr. Sukla: Of course, it's very attractive to look at, another
thing, the colors. So it's a beauty sight. But for some people...
Prabhupada:
In India, the list you have got? We have got standing order from all
institution, universities, colleges, standing orders, "Send as soon as
possible."
Devotee (2): The best thing is to distribute them
everywhere.
Prabhupada: In Germany, in Russia, we have got order. The Russian
professors, they have given order.
Dr. Sukla: Your interview with the Russian
professor was really sublime.
Prabhupada: You were in Russia?
Dr. Sukla:
No, I read in Bhavan's Journal, quoted from Bombay.
Devotee (1): It was in
the journal, your article was in one of the Indian journals.
Prabhupada: My
talk with Professor Kotovsky?
Dr. Sukla: Yes.
Indian devotee: Actually,
other Indians also commented they appreciate it very much. That was the first
time I started association, then I came to realize, ah, my direction, I was
fooling around with Vivekananda.
Prabhupada: Now other professors you have to
assure that higher appreciation. Any scholar will appreciate. Apart from
religious point of view, from scholarly point of view, they like it.
Dr.
Sukla: I think you should maybe some day in the future also put out a grammar,
Sanskrit grammar, whether yourself you write or somebody.
Prabhupada:
Grammar?
Dr. Sukla: :Grammar of Sanskrit language published by the
Krsna.
Prabhupada: We have got grammar, Jiva Gosvami,
Harinamamrta-vyakarana.
Dr. Sukla: Is it in English, available in
translation?
Prabhupada: No, not here.
Dr. Sukla: Well, I mean for the
foreigners.
Prabhupada: But here is grammar. Harinamamrta, all examples,
words are harinamamrta. Yes, these are the list of, apart from European,
America. "Cc" means Caitanya-caritamrta, "SB" means Srimad-Bhagavatam, standing
order.
Pusta Krsna: In addition to other works also. This is within the last
few months. They just started after our Mayapura festival.
Devotee (3): In
Europe, Srila Prabhupada, there's a very nice Hungarian boy, he's a translator.
He doesn't know English expertly, but I kept talking to him, he was working on
translating.
Prabhupada: How he'll translate?
Devotee (3): He's a
Hungarian and he knows Russian also.
Prabhupada: If he does not know English,
how he can translate?
Devotee (3): He knows English quite fluently, but he
feels not so expert in it. He's developing his expertise for English too.
[break]
Prabhupada: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense
gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So
the firework as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very
heavy, I think, total?
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that with all of the cars
going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million
dollars.
Prabhupada: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose
was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was
other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something
illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also
want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes,
ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense
satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently
exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to
the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is
interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested.
They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the
firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere,
he'll be interested, than to see the firework. So because he has got a different
body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested
differently. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja rightly said, deha-yogena dehinam. This
sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body.
Deha-yogena dehinam. But this is arranged, this different process of sense
gratification is arranged daivat, by the superior arrangement. Daivat. Sukham
aindriyakam daitya deha-yogena dehinam, sarvatra labhyate daivat. By the
superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahma
or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is
there. (aside) You can come forward.
Rupanuga: This is Professor Dr. Sukla.
He has written a very favorable review on your books.
Prabhupada: Thank you
very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining
that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently... So that is
arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivat. So it is
available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlada Maharaja
says... Where is that book, Prahlada Maharaja, Seventh Canto? Tat-prayaso na
kartavyo, don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayaso na kartavyo. Why
not? Yata ayur-vyayah param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata
ayur-vyayah. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life
simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata
ayur-vyayah param. You can read.
Pusta Krsna:
tat-prayaso na
kartavyo
yata ayur-vyayah param
na tatha vindate
ksemam
mukunda-caranambujam
Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense
gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be
performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual
profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Krsna consciousness, one can
surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such
benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."
Prabhupada: This is
our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which
is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat-prayaso na kartavyo. We see, especially
in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless
one is engaged... I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in
India, people being fatalist...
Pusta Krsna: They questioned, many people
think this is a hindrance to progress.
Prabhupada: So what is progress? In
India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there
is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Krsna festival. Each day not
less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although
these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in
English, still, to hear the kirtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta
I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bharata-bhumi, anyone who has
taken birth in India, naturally Krsna conscious. By artificial means, they are
being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned
that... What they have said?
Pusta Krsna: They said that there are many
thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it
doesn't encourage people to make material progress.
Prabhupada: That economic
development. Our acaryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many
books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big
factories for economic development. You'll find Vyasadeva has written so many
books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma,
artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], he dealt with these four subject
matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Narada Muni chastised him, that "You have
wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kama,
moksa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Srimad-Bhagavatam
simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything
about dharma artha kama moksa. In the beginning he introduces, gives
introduction to his book, dharmah projjhita kaitavo 'tra srimad-bhagavate [SB
1.1.2], in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, dharma, artha, kama, moksa, they are all
kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra
[SB 1.1.2]. So this kaitava, Sridhara Swami gives his commentary, atra
moksa-vanchan paryantam nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected.
Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this
propaganda, Krsna consciousness, is on the basis... It is called
bhagavata-dharma. Prahlada Maharaja begins his teaching that this
bhagavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people
are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main
business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their
attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other
anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against
human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you
have given. What is that?
Mr. Loomis(?): Could I ask a question? I look at
this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by
beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Krsna is pleasing to my ear, and I
have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not
be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense
gratification is helpful and when it is not.
Prabhupada: Sense gratification
is never helpful. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that kamasya
nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Sense gratification is required as far as..., as
little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping.
Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that
we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country
sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall
sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You
cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be
accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted
to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life.
Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. They're required.
So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep
sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But
it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this
is possible, this is possible. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. One can conquer
over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this
ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste.(?) It
is practiced. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at
most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three
hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours
total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of
Gosvamis. About them, it is said: nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. They
conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer
over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we
can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda
Thakura has sung, tar madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, ta 'ke jeta kothina
samsare. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first
thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the
sastra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. Atah sri
krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [BRS. 1.2.234]. Our present senses are
unable to understand sri krsna namadi, the holy name of the Lord. Adi, beginning
from His name, nama, then guna, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people
cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to
devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine
that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Atah sri krsna
namadi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name
of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand.
Atah sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [BRS. 1.2.234]. The present
senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from
the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy
name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam
means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti.
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena
hrsikesa
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
Bhakti means
to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the
present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we
are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when
they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of
Hrsikesa. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam. God's another name is Hrsikesa, master of
the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of
the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It
is Krsna's hand. Krsna has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my
room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made
by Krsna.
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan
sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]
It is a machine
manufactured by the material nature under the order of Krsna. So actually it is
not my body, it is Krsna's body. Krsna has given us. He has given you a
particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many.
Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here
and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine,
and Krsna has given us this machine manufactured by material nature.
Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So Krsna is within the
core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We
wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All
right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So
we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes
dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring
all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian
machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian
interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be
used for America's benefit." These are upadhi. Upadhi means designation. Neither
I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type
of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black,
I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this
understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body,"
we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it
not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also
thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me?
What do you think, Mr... How shall I address you?
Devotees:
Loomis.
Prabhupada: What is the spelling?
Devotees:
L-o-o-m...
Prabhupada: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that
"I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on
account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He
is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the
impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you
observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must
observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It
was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They
are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing.
Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday...
Mr.
Loomis: Under the impression that what?
Prabhupada: Everyone is thinking that
"I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or
something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the
difference between the mentalities?
Dr. Sukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are
victim of some kind of illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is illusion. That we are
trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog,"
the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian,"
or...
Dr. Sukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.
Prabhupada: No
difference. That is described in the sastra. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
[SB 10.84.13]. This body is made of... Everyone knows what is the composition:
the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The
body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with
these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living
entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood?
Mr. Loomis: Is it better to
have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?
Prabhupada:
Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you
have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The
dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and
tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear
about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged
not simply for sense gratification. Kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Find
out this verse. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. This is the business, tattva-jijnasa.
Tattva-jijnasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only
business.
Pusta Krsna: Kamasya nendriya-pritir labho jiveta yavata [SB
1.2.10].
Prabhupada: Labho jiveta yavata. You can satisfy senses as far as it
is required to live. That's all. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. The only business is to
inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijnasa. That is the only
business.
Mr. Loomis: For this machine?
Prabhupada: All other business
subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it
requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little
sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible.
Yuktahara-viharasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is
spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding
Krsna instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That
is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyasadeva writing so
exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern
civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for
spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. [break]
Devotee
(4): Srila Prabhupada, no matter what material body you have, by material nature
given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I
want to address myself to this question, because in Krsna consciousness, we
frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do
tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't
have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental
disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of
pain.
Prabhupada: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop
sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say
complete negation. No. Yuktahara-viharasya. Simply sleep as little as possible.
Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as
enjoyment. Is it not?
Pusta Krsna: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we
went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.
Prabhupada:
Not for beauty rest. (laughter)
Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also,
like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at
you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it
over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something,
you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be
angry...
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper
spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.
Devotee
(4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Krsna
consciousness?
Prabhupada: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning,
but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but
if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter,
I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease,
even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means
things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do
it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. We
take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present
moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old
age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul,
we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So we are not in eternal
existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be
finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehantara praptir. Then
again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished.
Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. So this is going on. This is impure stage of
our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required.
Tapo divyam yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya required. That tapasya
has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha
[SB 7.6.1]. That is brahmacari system, to understand the value of life. These
things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without
this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva
go-kharah [SB 10.84.13].
yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhih
kalatradisu bhauma idyadhih
yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij
janesv
abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah
[SB 10.84.13]
So just we are trying to
save men from this go-kharah civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to
the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we
chant Hare Krsna, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The
drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray(?)
gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the
drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men
to Krsna consciousness. Harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21].
Dr. Sukla: Have
the writings of Vidyapati come to attention, and if they have...
Prabhupada:
That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyapati's writing is meant for
realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between
girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced,
liberated, then these love affairs of Krsna and Radha, they will be
discussed.
Dr. Sukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out,
publishing them, his poems and translations?
Prabhupada: It is not for
ordinary. Candidasa, Vidyapati. Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's
books, Vidyapati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not
publicly.
Dr. Sukla: So you think they might be misused.
Prabhupada: Yes,
they are being misused. They take Krsna as debauch. They do not understand.
Therefore the Krsna's lila with the gopis, they are described in the Tenth
Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to
understand Krsna, beginning with janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So that is the
Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one
is fully convinced that Krsna has nothing to do with this material world, as
Sankaracarya said, narayanah para avyaktat, avyaktat anna sambhava. This
material world is a production... [break] It has to be purified.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When it is
nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Sravanam
kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. This
process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is
(indistinct), that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already
liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.
Indian man: Going back to this
sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Krsna conscious
life?
Prabhupada: Art?
Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or
literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes
oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy
and time. And so...
Prabhupada: Devotion means to engage your energy and time
for Krsna. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopadhi-vinir...
tat-paratvena. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. So if you can
serve Krsna by your hand, by painting about Krsna, that is service. If you chant
Hare Krsna, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Sravanam kirtanam
visnu, about Lord Visnu, Krsna. That is the beginning. Krsna is the reservoir of
pleasure, anandamayo 'byasat. So these things are producing ananda. If it is in
connection with Krsna, then it is service. (aside:) So, Palika, you can take
these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.
Devotee:
(indistinct)
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what if, ah,
for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I
find myself in that way...
Prabhupada: Just explain.
Pusta Krsna: Too
fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too
diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to
become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajna vai visnu.
Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is
perishable. When we come to the understanding of atma, aham brahmasmi, then we
understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles.
As Prabhupada said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we
are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more
and more ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], when the heart becomes
cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material
body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable (indistinct). Krsna says, "Be
happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing,
anandambudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased
condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupada gives the example of
someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears
very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is
sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for
someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But
gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.
Prabhupada:
Practical.
Devotee: When we have Krsna conscious (indistinct) struggling
for(indistinct). It has to be a struggle.
Prabhupada: What is struggle? Chant
Hare Krsna, dance and take prasadam. (devotee cheers)
Prabhupada: Is that
struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take
prasadam, nice prasadam, is struggle? (laughs)
Devotee: No.
(laughter)
Prabhupada: You simply take prasadam, you haven't got to struggle.
(laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be
(indistinct).
Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: At
all.
Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasadam.
Prabhupada: Su-sukham
kartum avyayam. Raja-vidya raja-guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukham kartum
avyayam. Find out this verse.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the only way
back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master.
So...
Prabhupada: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for
(indistinct) everything (indistinct). It is not magic. Krsna, when He advised
Arjuna, He never said that "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything
(indistinct). You don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Krsna's
mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy (indistinct). You have to struggle.
You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say?
Devotee
(3):
raja-vidya raja-guhyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam
dharmyam
su-sukham kartum avyayam
[Bg. 9.2]
"This knowledge
is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest
knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it
is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully
performed."
Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can
please you and obtain your mercy?
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct)
Devotee
(4): Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the Third Canto,
that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one
quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended
for a person in the the Krsna consciousness society? If so, how can you be
(indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: The basic principle is that -- Prabhupada
mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk -- that if you can control the
tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things
such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like
sex desire. Vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So
jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line,
like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it
becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction,
or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for
every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will
become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura says,
tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tara madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy
sudur... always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to
become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by
taking prasadam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what
you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like
there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant
and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular
quota of prasadam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this
(indistinct) is required. It's common sense.
Guest: There are two, two
functions in the tongue, one is (indistinct) and one is (indistinct)? So which
one (indistinct). Preaching is a form of tapasya? (indistinct)
Pusta Krsna:
Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad-gita, the different austerities. The
austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body.
It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the
tongue, of speech,
anudvega-karam vakyam
satyam priya-hitam ca
yat
svadhyayabhyasanam caiva
van-mayam tapa ucyate
It's an austerity,
tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and
then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly.
So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control
doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop
sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going
there?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) everyone. (indistinct)
Pusta Krsna: But
that everything should be done in relationship to Krsna. Then everything will
become purified. Hrsikesa hrsikena-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are
engaged for Krsna's satisfaction, then they're no longer... The senses are
compared to the sharp teeth of (indistinct). (indistinct) sharp teeth are
naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Krsna's service, the shark teeth,
they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses
which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Krsna's service, they no
longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation.
Prabhupada: (Sanskrit)
Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs. (indistinct) If the fang is
taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So (indistinct). But if I am sure
that his fangs are taken away (indistinct). Senses are dangerous, it is compared
with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Krsna consciousness that
(Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more
dangerous.
Devotee: Is it true or not true that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said
that failure is the pillar of success and (indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: I don't
know exactly if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada has used this
saying....
Prabhupada: What is that?
Pusta Krsna: Failure is the pillar of
success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn
from our mistakes.
Prabhupada: Hm. That is success. If we learn our failure
and try to rectify it, that is (indistinct).
Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupada
the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "Forget the past, it sleeps
and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and
progress thee shall call." So I asked Srila Prabhupada, is it possible to forget
the past? Srila Prabhupada said, "No, that would not be possible, but we can
think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not
that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience?
Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he
learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull-headed that again and again he
puts his finger in the fan... Basically our experience from the material world
should be duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That the material world is simply a
place of misery. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. That
we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That
should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for
real happiness. (indistinct)
Devotee: So this... It explains also in the
Nectar of Instruction that the man who may see others stealing and see others
also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and
punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this
(indistinct) again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause
(indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: It's called duracara, misbehavior. So atonement,
according to Sukadeva Gosvami, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm
sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real
intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material
world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for
myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it
beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows
that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become
intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's
athato brahma jijnasa. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature
of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going
on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Krsna
conscious.
Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door
neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Srila
Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: So what is his question?
Pusta Krsna: His question
is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say
that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very
close to the soul.
Guest: (indistinct) the relationship between the
intelligence, working in the soul.
Prabhupada: Soul is above intelligence.
This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the
intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.
Devotee:
(indistinct) matter.
Prabhupada: Yeah, subtle (?) matter
(indistinct).
Pusta Krsna: Indriyani parany ahur [Bg. 3.42].
Prabhupada:
Oh, indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah [Bg. 3.42].
Pusta Krsna:
Manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheh paratas tu sah.
Prabhupada: So when you
engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind,
senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the
present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on
the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite
side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of
giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses (indistinct) it should be
purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life
everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised,
that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going
to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema,
if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the
restaurant, hotel, if we take prasadam, so then you spiritualize your tongue.
Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Krsna, then it is properly
utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe krsna sambandhe
yukta-vairagyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not
possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how
would he say hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you completely
reject your senses then how we can serve Krsna? It has to be purified. That is
devotional service. Sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi
vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Manah krsna-padaravindayoh, fix up your
mind in Krsna, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be
purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified,
everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire
Krsna, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170].
Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [BRS 1.1.11]. Our activities are
going on on the platform of karma and jnana. Or little more on yoga. Karma,
jnana and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jnana. The karmis are
working for sense gratification. The jnanis are working for being liberated. The
yogis are working for some magical power. Asta-siddhi. So one has to become free
from all these desires. Anyabhilasa-sunyam, anyabhilasa-sunyam,
jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you should be prepared to
execute the order of Krsna. If you are trying in different way, for sense
gratification, karmis are grossly, they want something (indistinct) they want
nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice (indistinct), So many things. That is
karmi life. Jnani, as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyam jagan mithya,
this endeavor for all mithya. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they
take to the karmi's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain
karmi, jnani, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such
desires, anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11]. And then you become happy. Simply
(indistinct) to execute the order of Krsna. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing
Bhagavad-gita, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, karisye vacanam
tava. Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is (indistinct). He
did not become a karmi, jnani, yogi. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of
Krsna. Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan
madhusudana.
Pusta Krsna:
arjuna uvaca
nasto mohah smrtir
labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
karisye
vacanam tava
[Bg. 18.73]
Prabhupada: This is wanted. This is Krsna
consciousness. Krsna says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill
my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so
on. What You are advising, Krsna, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gita was
talked, and after learning he says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava." (indistinct)
This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was
declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it
was "No." And when he was perfectly Krsna conscious, it is "Yes." The
materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become
"Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jnanis are "No, God." The karmis are "No,
God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!"
Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about
this impersonal, what was his question?
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupada:
No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning?
Devotee:
(indistinct) interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and
another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if...
Prabhupada: So
why they should interpret different way?
Guest: What was the
question?
Prabhupada: Just... Explain to him.
Devotee: There was an Indian
man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Srila Prabhupada, the
philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an
impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they
say. Prabhupada (indistinct) now in our (indistinct) you can't actually
substantiate that God is impersonal, because Krsna is a person speaking to
Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? (indistinct) So Prabhupada said
it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in
some devious manner, rather than taking what Krsna said, literally, as
(indistinct).
Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that
whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise,
devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal.
Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling.
So...
Prabhupada: It is in the Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said, bhagavan
uvaca. It is never said Brahman uvaca. (laughter) People have no eyes to see.
The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB
1.2.11]. But in the Bhagavad-gita it is never said Paramatma uvaca. (laughter)
Or Brahman uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca! Vyasadeva, He does not say krsna uvaca,
because Krsna will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyasadeva) directly says,
sri bhagavan uvaca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal.
He clearly says bhagavan. Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Bhagavan says, "I
am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all?
It is simply dragging (?) the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic
culture.
Guest: Well, the example is that Sankaracarya, who was of
course...
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja
govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just..."
Guest: On the
one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time
he realized that bhaja govindam.
Prabhupada: No. He is correct in the study.
Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of
Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism.
Therefore, the Buddhists are sunyavadis. So he said, "No, it is not sunya. That
is Brahman. This material world is false, (indistinct)." Lord Buddha said
everything is false. He said, "No, the material world is false, Brahman is
false, brahma satyam jagan mithya. But he did not give any further information
of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindam brahmate bhaja
govindam.
Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he
was walking and someone who knew that Sankaracarya preached this illusion
business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase
Sankaracarya." And of course he did and Sankaracarya started running. So this
man said, "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said, "So is my
running." (laughter) He said, "So is my running, that's also an
illusion."
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Rupanuga: But sometimes the
impersonalists, they say, Prabhupada, that this Krsna consciousness is just the
beginning platform, that after Krsna consciousness then one can come to
impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gita and a
few scriptures teach about Krsna but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about
Krsna's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one
comes to it, after bhakti.
Prabhupada: No. There are Vedas, there are so many
names described. Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If
one has not understood Krsna by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas.
It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Krsna says vedais ca sarvair aham eva
vedyam [Bg. 15.15]? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Krsna, then
his labor is useless. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].
If one is actually jnanavan, then he (indistinct). Sankaracarya said bhaja
govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the
Vedas, you don't find Krsna's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Krsna
says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The actual purpose of
studying Vedas means to understand Krsna. If one has not understood Krsna, then
srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They have simply labored for nothing.
Guest:
Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have
today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the
literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't
occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in
the Vedas. This is something that people have...
Prabhupada: No, Krsna's name
is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jiva
Gosvami has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Krsna's name. And this, the best
scholar of Vedas, (indistinct) he says, sa bhagavan svayam krsna, Sankaracarya.
Then other acaryas they have supported Krsna's teachings, just like
Ramanujacarya, and (indistinct) he has quoted Vedic quotation, every sloka. So
one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned,"
(Sanskrit). Everywhere is Krsna's name. But one must be actually scholar in
Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned in the beginning, in the
middle, and at the end."
Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Rg Veda,
(indistinct) example of glorifications of Krsna there?
Prabhupada: Everything
is glorification of Krsna.
Devotee (3): Whenever Krsna is mentioned in the
Vedas, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say, "Well, so
many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Krsna, but Krsna's
mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, (Sanskrit). "Krsna is the
Supreme."
Prabhupada: Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Either
you accept this Krsna's statement, or you reject Krsna. But He says mattah
parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. What do you want more?
Guest: Well, Prabhupadaji,
if anyone has gone to Gita and if he is still bothered by the historical
evidence, I don't think he has read Gita.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest: So we
should never really be bothered by this question of historical...
Prabhupada:
Therefore we have concentrated on Gita. This movement -- when I registered this
association, so when I wrote "Krsna consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't
you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Krsna consciousness. We are particularly
preaching Krsna's teaching. Krsna is God, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28].
But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are
concerned with Krsna. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Krsna.
That is our (indistinct). (aside:) Yes?
Guest (2): There is a Swami,
Gangesvaranandaji, (indistinct) Vedas (indistinct) books that Krsna's name in
the Vedas is mentioned.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Devotee: Krsna's name in the Vedas
is already there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: He has clearly
(indistinct)
Prabhupada: Otherwise how Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva
vedyam [Bg. 15.15]?
Guest (3): The Mayavadis say that Vedanta is impersonal,
and (indistinct) Vedanta...
Prabhupada: You do not know what is Vedanta.
(indistinct) In the beginning of Vedanta, athato brahma jijnasa. "Now try to
inquire about this Supreme, (indistinct) Brahman." The next verse is janmady
asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now,
what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that
thing? That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam is the real
explanation of Veda. Brahma-sutra, (indistinct) mahasyam brahma-sutranam vedasya
parividyatam (?), this Srimad-Bhagavatam, vedasya parividyatam, (indistinct)
avyayam, brahma-sutrasya (?) uvaca, by Vyasadeva himself. Vyasadeva is the
writer of Vedanta-sutra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of
Narada. So to understand Vedanta, you have to study Bhagavatam. He's explained
janmady asya [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmady
asya yatah. So what is the nature? Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca...
(end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington,
D.C.
Indian woman: (indistinct) When he
used to be married he wrote some songs, he used to practice to sing, he used to
chant and he used to cry.Dr. Sukla: Of course, first we were talking about
Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two different personalities and two
different paths.
Indian woman: Yes, but I thought Ramakrishna... Many times I
get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't
say rascal." I don't read him, but he inspired me so much. And I don't know
what's wrong. Am I wrong or...?
Prabhupada: Now what is the philosophy of
Ramakrishna?
Indian woman: He does not say that Krsna is God. (indistinct)
and I was very young at that time.
Prabhupada: If you want to discuss, there
is points of discussion. (laughs) Yes. He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone
knows it. Do you know that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to
that?
Dr. Sukla: No. He said, "I'm Rama and Krsna both."
Prabhupada: But
he realized by worshiping Kali. (laughter)
Devotee: ...he dressed up as
Radharani too.
Prabhupada: So do you agree to that? Then how you appreciate
it? Indian woman: No, I don't appreciate it.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is a
common sense. He, later on, he became God, by worshiping Kali, is it not?
Dr.
Sukla: He was cursed by Kali.
Prabhupada: No, he was a big worshiper of Kali.
And he was meat-eater also, Ma Kali's prasada, that unless one eats that
prasadam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his position, that he worshiped
Kali, and later on by worshiping Kali... His picture is there, mother Kali's
embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata pat: "Whatever path you take,
accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you think it is all right? He
worshiped Kali and he said yata mata tata pat. You agree to this? Now,
Ramakrishna says yata mata tata pat. And Krsna says... He became Ramakrishna,
identifying himself with Krsna. And Krsna said mam ekam, and now he's becoming
Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Just see. When he's actual Krsna, he says mam
ekam, and when he became imitation Krsna, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna has
changed his views. (laughter) Just see, this foolishness is going on.
Dr.
Sukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of deranged, of a deranged mind.
(laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the proof.
Dr. Sukla: Yes, because he
was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking, he was going from one
village to another village through the paddy fields, and the clouds were very
thick and thunder and lightning, and he writes that he saw Kali, and I have a
friend in England, Carl Wilson, who has done some work on Ramakrishna, he
believes that at that very moment...
Prabhupada: These are miracles, that's
all. It has no value. People are after miracles. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is
said kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajante 'nya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are
worshipers of other demigods, they are hrta-jnanah. Hrta-jnanah. Srila
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his comment, hrta-jnanah nasta buddhayah,
one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali he is to be
considered as hrta-jnanah, one who has lost his intelligence -- and he becomes
God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God. With
that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost
intelligence, he says yata mata tata pat. Krsna says mam ekam. Sarva dharman
parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Krsna is speaking,
yata mata tata pat. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how
he gave up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know
everything. So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of
sastra.
yah sastra vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama karatah
na sa siddhim
avapnoti
na sukham na param gatim
[Bg. 16.23]
If you have no
knowledge of the sastra, then you'll never be successful in your spiritual life,
what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not possible.
Indian woman:
Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple?
Prabhupada: I'm talking of this
Ramakrishna particularly. There is no sastra siddha. Whimsical, sentiment,
that's all. So far his yata mata tata pat is concerned, at last he proposed,
"Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have to eat cow's
flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in Calcutta?
Daksinesvari. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because it is
temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So they are
taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he wanted to
take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I shall now
practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I want your
permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but if you ask
this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this permission." Then he
stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical.
Dr. Sukla: We have
another mentally retarded person in India, Sai Baba.
Prabhupada: Yes,
magic.
Pusta Krsna: We have that newspaper from South Africa.
Prabhupada:
Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want this
magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Krsna, we are
preaching Krsna consciousness, "Sir, Krsna says like this, you do like that,"
that's all. If you like, you can do; otherwise let us do our own business. We
don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in the
Bhagavad-gita. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's all.
(Bengali) Krsna says that He is Supreme, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So
we are preaching, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme," that's all.
Dr. Sukla:
Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success.
Prabhupada: Yes, people
say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I
do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated.
That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But
I am certain that I have not adulterated what Krsna has said. That's all. And I
study everything by the crucial test of Krsna's teaching. That's all. Krsna
says:
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta
jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
As soon as we see that
somebody is not Krsna conscious or Krsna's devotee, I take them immediately he's
a duskrtina, he's a mudha, he's a naradhama. "Oh, he's educated!"
mayayapahrta-jnana. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here
is a mayayapahrta-jnana. That's all. Asuram bhavam asritah. Because he denies to
accept Krsna, he must be within this group. Duskrtina, mudha, naradhama,
mayayapahrta-jnana. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that,
that "Here is a duskrtina," that's all.
Dr. Sukla: Tulasi dasa has also said
that who is not God, Krsna, conscious, you should treat them like your
enemy.
Prabhupada: That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, that asat-sanga
tyaga vaisnava acara. The Vaisnava's behavior is to give up bad company. Who is
bad? Next question will be that "I have to give up the bad company. Who is bad?"
Then He says, next line: asat stri sangi 'krsnabhakta' ara. Two words. Those who
are too much attached to woman and those who are not devotees of Krsna, they are
bad. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says give up the company of these two bad men,
that's all. That is Vaisnava. So everything is there. If you simply follow with
sincerity, then Krsna is pleased. As Arjuna says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava
[Bg. 18.73]." That's all. He becomes perfect. And Krsna immediately accepts, na
ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69]. He becomes immediately
recognized by Krsna. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg
18.68]. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69].
Priya-krttamah, superlative. Priya-krt, priya-krtara, priya-krttamah. So let us
follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita as it is, our life will be perfect. That
is a fact. Don't divert your attention here and there.
Devotee: Prabhupada,
you were a chemist before, but I think you are the greatest alchemist to have
taken so many leaden souls and turned them into golden Vaisnavas. Perhaps you
can even transform them (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So Krsna is giving us
facilities to preach this cult. Everywhere we have got very, very palatial
buildings to accommodate devotees. Now we have got here a very nice place,
accommodate devotees. Everywhere we have got. In Bombay we are getting the best
temple in India. We are spending crores of rupees, Krsna is giving us money. So
I started the business with forty rupees. That was also not American currency.
They allowed me to bring forty rupees. So when I was getting off the ship I
asked the captain, "I have brought these forty rupees, which will not be
accepted here, so you take." At that time three books I had, the first, second
and third volume. So I asked him that "You purchase. Give me some dollars." So
he asked, "What is the price?" "Sixteen dollars." So he gave me twenty dollars,
and I delivered them. With that twenty dollars I got out down on the land of
America, and that forty rupees. So I did not know where to go, where to stay. So
Krsna is giving us all facilities, and these American boys are helping. I think
those who are Indians, they should join this movement sincerely and preach more
vigorously. People will be benefited -- this is real substance. Otherwise people
are being misguided, so many things going on. Transcendental meditation, the,
what is called? No, another. So many. Actually, speaking for the last at least
two hundred years, many swamis, people came here, but not a single person was
converted to become a devotee of Krsna. That is history. What do you think,
Sukla? You have studied. So many swamis, yogis, scholars came, and they spoke on
Bhagavad-gita and other, but not a single person became a devotee of
Krsna.
Dr. Sukla: I think they try to be impersonal.
Prabhupada: Whatever
it may be. They are supposed to be great personalities, but not a single person
was converted.
Dr. Sukla: (indistinct) ...he was asked who is such a master.
He pointed out could not answer who can be such a master. He posed himself as a
spiritual master.
Prabhupada: So here is an opportunity to preach real
India's traditional culture. So those who are Indians present here, they should
cooperate. They should not mislead further.
Dr. Sukla: We have started
teaching your Gita at Georgetown University, where I teach. Before we had, we
have two years course of Sanskrit, and we had some excerpts from Mahabharata and
some Panca-tantra and so on, but there was no Gita. So I decided and we were
using the entire Gita for the second year. Your contributions can't be
duplicated.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much.
Dr. Sukla: And same thing
with Bhagavatam. We all know what a great book that is, and what I really
appreciate about the whole thing is, number one, that there are no misprints in
the book. So that's a great delight. Especially, for people who do not know
Sanskrit, for them, there's no difference between the wheat and the germ that
comes with it. The translations are very accurate. So it's real scholarship
there. And people who were not aware of this Krsna consciousness, they know that
if the intellect is so powerful, the spirit must be powerful too. Our library,
of course, has several copies, and our bookstore has almost all
the...
Prabhupada: All over the world they have given standing order.
(laughter)
Dr. Sukla: Of course, it's very attractive to look at, another
thing, the colors. So it's a beauty sight. But for some people...
Prabhupada:
In India, the list you have got? We have got standing order from all
institution, universities, colleges, standing orders, "Send as soon as
possible."
Devotee (2): The best thing is to distribute them
everywhere.
Prabhupada: In Germany, in Russia, we have got order. The Russian
professors, they have given order.
Dr. Sukla: Your interview with the Russian
professor was really sublime.
Prabhupada: You were in Russia?
Dr. Sukla:
No, I read in Bhavan's Journal, quoted from Bombay.
Devotee (1): It was in
the journal, your article was in one of the Indian journals.
Prabhupada: My
talk with Professor Kotovsky?
Dr. Sukla: Yes.
Indian devotee: Actually,
other Indians also commented they appreciate it very much. That was the first
time I started association, then I came to realize, ah, my direction, I was
fooling around with Vivekananda.
Prabhupada: Now other professors you have to
assure that higher appreciation. Any scholar will appreciate. Apart from
religious point of view, from scholarly point of view, they like it.
Dr.
Sukla: I think you should maybe some day in the future also put out a grammar,
Sanskrit grammar, whether yourself you write or somebody.
Prabhupada:
Grammar?
Dr. Sukla: :Grammar of Sanskrit language published by the
Krsna.
Prabhupada: We have got grammar, Jiva Gosvami,
Harinamamrta-vyakarana.
Dr. Sukla: Is it in English, available in
translation?
Prabhupada: No, not here.
Dr. Sukla: Well, I mean for the
foreigners.
Prabhupada: But here is grammar. Harinamamrta, all examples,
words are harinamamrta. Yes, these are the list of, apart from European,
America. "Cc" means Caitanya-caritamrta, "SB" means Srimad-Bhagavatam, standing
order.
Pusta Krsna: In addition to other works also. This is within the last
few months. They just started after our Mayapura festival.
Devotee (3): In
Europe, Srila Prabhupada, there's a very nice Hungarian boy, he's a translator.
He doesn't know English expertly, but I kept talking to him, he was working on
translating.
Prabhupada: How he'll translate?
Devotee (3): He's a
Hungarian and he knows Russian also.
Prabhupada: If he does not know English,
how he can translate?
Devotee (3): He knows English quite fluently, but he
feels not so expert in it. He's developing his expertise for English too.
[break]
Prabhupada: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense
gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So
the firework as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very
heavy, I think, total?
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that with all of the cars
going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million
dollars.
Prabhupada: Yes, that petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose
was little sense gratification, "I shall see something illuminating." What was
other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something
illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also
want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes,
ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense
satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently
exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to
the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is
interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested.
They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the
firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere,
he'll be interested, than to see the firework. So because he has got a different
body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested
differently. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja rightly said, deha-yogena dehinam. This
sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body.
Deha-yogena dehinam. But this is arranged, this different process of sense
gratification is arranged daivat, by the superior arrangement. Daivat. Sukham
aindriyakam daitya deha-yogena dehinam, sarvatra labhyate daivat. By the
superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahma
or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is
there. (aside) You can come forward.
Rupanuga: This is Professor Dr. Sukla.
He has written a very favorable review on your books.
Prabhupada: Thank you
very much. (laughs) Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining
that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently... So that is
arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivat. So it is
available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlada Maharaja
says... Where is that book, Prahlada Maharaja, Seventh Canto? Tat-prayaso na
kartavyo, don't waste your time for that purpose. Tat-prayaso na kartavyo. Why
not? Yata ayur-vyayah param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata
ayur-vyayah. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life
simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata
ayur-vyayah param. You can read.
Pusta Krsna:
tat-prayaso na
kartavyo
yata ayur-vyayah param
na tatha vindate
ksemam
mukunda-caranambujam
Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense
gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be
performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual
profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Krsna consciousness, one can
surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such
benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."
Prabhupada: This is
our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which
is better? (laughs) Here it is said tat-prayaso na kartavyo. We see, especially
in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless
one is engaged... I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in
India, people being fatalist...
Pusta Krsna: They questioned, many people
think this is a hindrance to progress.
Prabhupada: So what is progress? In
India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there
is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Krsna festival. Each day not
less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although
these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in
English, still, to hear the kirtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta
I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bharata-bhumi, anyone who has
taken birth in India, naturally Krsna conscious. By artificial means, they are
being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned
that... What they have said?
Pusta Krsna: They said that there are many
thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it
doesn't encourage people to make material progress.
Prabhupada: That economic
development. Our acaryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many
books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big
factories for economic development. You'll find Vyasadeva has written so many
books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma,
artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], he dealt with these four subject
matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Narada Muni chastised him, that "You have
wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kama,
moksa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Srimad-Bhagavatam
simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything
about dharma artha kama moksa. In the beginning he introduces, gives
introduction to his book, dharmah projjhita kaitavo 'tra srimad-bhagavate [SB
1.1.2], in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, dharma, artha, kama, moksa, they are all
kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra
[SB 1.1.2]. So this kaitava, Sridhara Swami gives his commentary, atra
moksa-vanchan paryantam nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected.
Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this
propaganda, Krsna consciousness, is on the basis... It is called
bhagavata-dharma. Prahlada Maharaja begins his teaching that this
bhagavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life. And people
are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main
business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their
attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other
anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against
human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you
have given. What is that?
Mr. Loomis(?): Could I ask a question? I look at
this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by
beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Krsna is pleasing to my ear, and I
have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not
be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense
gratification is helpful and when it is not.
Prabhupada: Sense gratification
is never helpful. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that kamasya
nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Sense gratification is required as far as..., as
little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping.
Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that
we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country
sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall
sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You
cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be
accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted
to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, or advancement of spiritual life.
Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna. They're required.
So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep
sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But
it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this
is possible, this is possible. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. One can conquer
over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this
ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste.(?) It
is practiced. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at
most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three
hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours
total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of
Gosvamis. About them, it is said: nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. They
conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer
over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we
can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda
Thakura has sung, tar madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, ta 'ke jeta kothina
samsare. Of all our senses the tongue is very, very prominent. So the first
thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the
sastra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. Atah sri
krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [BRS. 1.2.234]. Our present senses are
unable to understand sri krsna namadi, the holy name of the Lord. Adi, beginning
from His name, nama, then guna, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people
cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to
devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine
that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Atah sri krsna
namadi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name
of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand.
Atah sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [BRS. 1.2.234]. The present
senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from
the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy
name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam
means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti.
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena
hrsikesa
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
Bhakti means
to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the
present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we
are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when
they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of
Hrsikesa. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam. God's another name is Hrsikesa, master of
the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of
the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It
is Krsna's hand. Krsna has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my
room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made
by Krsna.
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan
sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]
It is a machine
manufactured by the material nature under the order of Krsna. So actually it is
not my body, it is Krsna's body. Krsna has given us. He has given you a
particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many.
Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here
and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine,
and Krsna has given us this machine manufactured by material nature.
Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So Krsna is within the
core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We
wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All
right, you want to get this facility, sit down on it and travel as you like." So
we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes
dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring
all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian
machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian
interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be
used for America's benefit." These are upadhi. Upadhi means designation. Neither
I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type
of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black,
I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this
understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body,"
we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it
not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also
thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me?
What do you think, Mr... How shall I address you?
Devotees:
Loomis.
Prabhupada: What is the spelling?
Devotees:
L-o-o-m...
Prabhupada: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that
"I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on
account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He
is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the
impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you
observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must
observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It
was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They
are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing.
Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday...
Mr.
Loomis: Under the impression that what?
Prabhupada: Everyone is thinking that
"I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or
something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the
difference between the mentalities?
Dr. Sukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are
victim of some kind of illusion.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is illusion. That we are
trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog,"
the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian,"
or...
Dr. Sukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.
Prabhupada: No
difference. That is described in the sastra. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
[SB 10.84.13]. This body is made of... Everyone knows what is the composition:
the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The
body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with
these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living
entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood?
Mr. Loomis: Is it better to
have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?
Prabhupada:
Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you
have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The
dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and
tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear
about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged
not simply for sense gratification. Kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Find
out this verse. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. This is the business, tattva-jijnasa.
Tattva-jijnasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only
business.
Pusta Krsna: Kamasya nendriya-pritir labho jiveta yavata [SB
1.2.10].
Prabhupada: Labho jiveta yavata. You can satisfy senses as far as it
is required to live. That's all. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. The only business is to
inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma jijnasa. That is the only
business.
Mr. Loomis: For this machine?
Prabhupada: All other business
subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it
requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little
sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible.
Yuktahara-viharasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is
spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding
Krsna instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That
is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyasadeva writing so
exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern
civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for
spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. [break]
Devotee
(4): Srila Prabhupada, no matter what material body you have, by material nature
given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I
want to address myself to this question, because in Krsna consciousness, we
frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do
tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't
have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental
disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of
pain.
Prabhupada: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop
sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say
complete negation. No. Yuktahara-viharasya. Simply sleep as little as possible.
Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as
enjoyment. Is it not?
Pusta Krsna: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we
went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.
Prabhupada:
Not for beauty rest. (laughter)
Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also,
like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at
you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it
over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something,
you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be
angry...
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper
spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.
Devotee
(4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Krsna
consciousness?
Prabhupada: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning,
but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but
if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter,
I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease,
even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means
things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do
it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. We
take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present
moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old
age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul,
we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So we are not in eternal
existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be
finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehantara praptir. Then
again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished.
Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. So this is going on. This is impure stage of
our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required.
Tapo divyam yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya required. That tapasya
has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha
[SB 7.6.1]. That is brahmacari system, to understand the value of life. These
things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without
this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva
go-kharah [SB 10.84.13].
yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhih
kalatradisu bhauma idyadhih
yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij
janesv
abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah
[SB 10.84.13]
So just we are trying to
save men from this go-kharah civilization. Therefore it is not very appealing to
the general mass of people. But still we have seen yesterday that as soon as we
chant Hare Krsna, everyone is attracted, everyone. You have seen yesterday? The
drunkard, he was also attracted, and the child was attracted, the gray(?)
gentleman, he was also attracted, within the park. The child was dancing and the
drunkard was dancing. Therefore this is the only means to elevate the modern men
to Krsna consciousness. Harer nama harer nama [Adi 17.21].
Dr. Sukla: Have
the writings of Vidyapati come to attention, and if they have...
Prabhupada:
That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyapati's writing is meant for
realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between
girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced,
liberated, then these love affairs of Krsna and Radha, they will be
discussed.
Dr. Sukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out,
publishing them, his poems and translations?
Prabhupada: It is not for
ordinary. Candidasa, Vidyapati. Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's
books, Vidyapati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not
publicly.
Dr. Sukla: So you think they might be misused.
Prabhupada: Yes,
they are being misused. They take Krsna as debauch. They do not understand.
Therefore the Krsna's lila with the gopis, they are described in the Tenth
Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to
understand Krsna, beginning with janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So that is the
Absolute Truth. These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one
is fully convinced that Krsna has nothing to do with this material world, as
Sankaracarya said, narayanah para avyaktat, avyaktat anna sambhava. This
material world is a production... [break] It has to be purified.
Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When it is
nirmalam, then it is first-class. The first process is nirmalam. Sravanam
kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. This
process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is
(indistinct), that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already
liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.
Indian man: Going back to this
sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Krsna conscious
life?
Prabhupada: Art?
Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or
literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes
oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy
and time. And so...
Prabhupada: Devotion means to engage your energy and time
for Krsna. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopadhi-vinir...
tat-paratvena. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. So if you can
serve Krsna by your hand, by painting about Krsna, that is service. If you chant
Hare Krsna, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Sravanam kirtanam
visnu, about Lord Visnu, Krsna. That is the beginning. Krsna is the reservoir of
pleasure, anandamayo 'byasat. So these things are producing ananda. If it is in
connection with Krsna, then it is service. (aside:) So, Palika, you can take
these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.
Devotee:
(indistinct)
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what if, ah,
for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I
find myself in that way...
Prabhupada: Just explain.
Pusta Krsna: Too
fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too
diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to
become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajna vai visnu.
Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is
perishable. When we come to the understanding of atma, aham brahmasmi, then we
understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles.
As Prabhupada said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we
are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more
and more ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], when the heart becomes
cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material
body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable (indistinct). Krsna says, "Be
happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing,
anandambudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased
condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupada gives the example of
someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears
very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is
sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for
someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But
gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.
Prabhupada:
Practical.
Devotee: When we have Krsna conscious (indistinct) struggling
for(indistinct). It has to be a struggle.
Prabhupada: What is struggle? Chant
Hare Krsna, dance and take prasadam. (devotee cheers)
Prabhupada: Is that
struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take
prasadam, nice prasadam, is struggle? (laughs)
Devotee: No.
(laughter)
Prabhupada: You simply take prasadam, you haven't got to struggle.
(laughter) But don't take anything else. Then it will be
(indistinct).
Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: At
all.
Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasadam.
Prabhupada: Su-sukham
kartum avyayam. Raja-vidya raja-guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukham kartum
avyayam. Find out this verse.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the only way
back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master.
So...
Prabhupada: And he'll sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for
(indistinct) everything (indistinct). It is not magic. Krsna, when He advised
Arjuna, He never said that "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything
(indistinct). You don't fight." Did He say? "You have to fight!" That's Krsna's
mercy. Not that by spiritual master's mercy (indistinct). You have to struggle.
You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say?
Devotee
(3):
raja-vidya raja-guhyam
pavitram idam uttamam
pratyaksavagamam
dharmyam
su-sukham kartum avyayam
[Bg. 9.2]
"This knowledge
is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest
knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it
is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully
performed."
Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can
please you and obtain your mercy?
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct)
Devotee
(4): Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the Third Canto,
that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires, one
quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended
for a person in the the Krsna consciousness society? If so, how can you be
(indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: The basic principle is that -- Prabhupada
mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk -- that if you can control the
tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things
such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like
sex desire. Vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So
jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line,
like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it
becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction,
or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for
every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will
become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura says,
tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tara madhye jihva ati, lobhamoy
sudur... always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to
become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by
taking prasadam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what
you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like
there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant
and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular
quota of prasadam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this
(indistinct) is required. It's common sense.
Guest: There are two, two
functions in the tongue, one is (indistinct) and one is (indistinct)? So which
one (indistinct). Preaching is a form of tapasya? (indistinct)
Pusta Krsna:
Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad-gita, the different austerities. The
austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body.
It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the
tongue, of speech,
anudvega-karam vakyam
satyam priya-hitam ca
yat
svadhyayabhyasanam caiva
van-mayam tapa ucyate
It's an austerity,
tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and
then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly.
So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control
doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop
sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going
there?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) everyone. (indistinct)
Pusta Krsna: But
that everything should be done in relationship to Krsna. Then everything will
become purified. Hrsikesa hrsikena-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are
engaged for Krsna's satisfaction, then they're no longer... The senses are
compared to the sharp teeth of (indistinct). (indistinct) sharp teeth are
naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Krsna's service, the shark teeth,
they're broken. So they can't feel any trouble. Although we are using the senses
which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Krsna's service, they no
longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation.
Prabhupada: (Sanskrit)
Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs. (indistinct) If the fang is
taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So (indistinct). But if I am sure
that his fangs are taken away (indistinct). Senses are dangerous, it is compared
with the serpent. (Sanskrit) But if you take to Krsna consciousness that
(Sanskrit) the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more
dangerous.
Devotee: Is it true or not true that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said
that failure is the pillar of success and (indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: I don't
know exactly if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada has used this
saying....
Prabhupada: What is that?
Pusta Krsna: Failure is the pillar of
success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn
from our mistakes.
Prabhupada: Hm. That is success. If we learn our failure
and try to rectify it, that is (indistinct).
Devotee (3): I asked Prabhupada
the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "Forget the past, it sleeps
and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and
progress thee shall call." So I asked Srila Prabhupada, is it possible to forget
the past? Srila Prabhupada said, "No, that would not be possible, but we can
think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not
that we should remain fools. Then what would be the value of our experience?
Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he
learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull-headed that again and again he
puts his finger in the fan... Basically our experience from the material world
should be duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. That the material world is simply a
place of misery. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. That
we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That
should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for
real happiness. (indistinct)
Devotee: So this... It explains also in the
Nectar of Instruction that the man who may see others stealing and see others
also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and
punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this
(indistinct) again and again. Is this a symptom of the cause
(indistinct)?
Pusta Krsna: It's called duracara, misbehavior. So atonement,
according to Sukadeva Gosvami, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm
sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real
intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material
world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for
myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it
beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows
that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become
intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's
athato brahma jijnasa. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature
of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going
on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Krsna
conscious.
Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door
neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Srila
Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: So what is his question?
Pusta Krsna: His question
is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say
that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very
close to the soul.
Guest: (indistinct) the relationship between the
intelligence, working in the soul.
Prabhupada: Soul is above intelligence.
This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the
intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.
Devotee:
(indistinct) matter.
Prabhupada: Yeah, subtle (?) matter
(indistinct).
Pusta Krsna: Indriyani parany ahur [Bg. 3.42].
Prabhupada:
Oh, indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyah param manah [Bg. 3.42].
Pusta Krsna:
Manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheh paratas tu sah.
Prabhupada: So when you
engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind,
senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the
present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on
the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite
side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of
giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses (indistinct) it should be
purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life
everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised,
that is perfect. But instead of working uselessly, if we use our legs for going
to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema,
if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the
restaurant, hotel, if we take prasadam, so then you spiritualize your tongue.
Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Krsna, then it is properly
utilizing the tongue. In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhe krsna sambandhe
yukta-vairagyam ucyate. Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not
possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how
would he say hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. If you completely
reject your senses then how we can serve Krsna? It has to be purified. That is
devotional service. Sa vai manah krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi
vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Manah krsna-padaravindayoh, fix up your
mind in Krsna, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be
purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified,
everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire
Krsna, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170].
Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [BRS 1.1.11]. Our activities are
going on on the platform of karma and jnana. Or little more on yoga. Karma,
jnana and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jnana. The karmis are
working for sense gratification. The jnanis are working for being liberated. The
yogis are working for some magical power. Asta-siddhi. So one has to become free
from all these desires. Anyabhilasa-sunyam, anyabhilasa-sunyam,
jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Simply you should be prepared to
execute the order of Krsna. If you are trying in different way, for sense
gratification, karmis are grossly, they want something (indistinct) they want
nice car, wife, house, nice wife, nice (indistinct), So many things. That is
karmi life. Jnani, as they are baffled, they say, brahma satyam jagan mithya,
this endeavor for all mithya. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they
take to the karmi's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain
karmi, jnani, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such
desires, anyabhilasita-sunyam [BRS 1.1.11]. And then you become happy. Simply
(indistinct) to execute the order of Krsna. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing
Bhagavad-gita, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, karisye vacanam
tava. Yes. Yes, I am now ready to do whatever You say." That is (indistinct). He
did not become a karmi, jnani, yogi. Simply (indistinct) to execute the order of
Krsna. Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan
madhusudana.
Pusta Krsna:
arjuna uvaca
nasto mohah smrtir
labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah
karisye
vacanam tava
[Bg. 18.73]
Prabhupada: This is wanted. This is Krsna
consciousness. Krsna says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill
my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so
on. What You are advising, Krsna, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gita was
talked, and after learning he says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava." (indistinct)
This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was
declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it
was "No." And when he was perfectly Krsna conscious, it is "Yes." The
materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become
"Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jnanis are "No, God." The karmis are "No,
God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!"
Yes. So that is perfect. This morning one Indian gentleman was talking about
this impersonal, what was his question?
Devotee: (indistinct)
Prabhupada:
No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning?
Devotee:
(indistinct) interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and
another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if...
Prabhupada: So
why they should interpret different way?
Guest: What was the
question?
Prabhupada: Just... Explain to him.
Devotee: There was an Indian
man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Srila Prabhupada, the
philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an
impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they
say. Prabhupada (indistinct) now in our (indistinct) you can't actually
substantiate that God is impersonal, because Krsna is a person speaking to
Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? (indistinct) So Prabhupada said
it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in
some devious manner, rather than taking what Krsna said, literally, as
(indistinct).
Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that
whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise,
devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal.
Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling.
So...
Prabhupada: It is in the Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said, bhagavan
uvaca. It is never said Brahman uvaca. (laughter) People have no eyes to see.
The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB
1.2.11]. But in the Bhagavad-gita it is never said Paramatma uvaca. (laughter)
Or Brahman uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca! Vyasadeva, He does not say krsna uvaca,
because Krsna will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore (Vyasadeva) directly says,
sri bhagavan uvaca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal.
He clearly says bhagavan. Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Bhagavan says, "I
am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all?
It is simply dragging (?) the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic
culture.
Guest: Well, the example is that Sankaracarya, who was of
course...
Prabhupada: Sankaracarya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja
govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just..."
Guest: On the
one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time
he realized that bhaja govindam.
Prabhupada: No. He is correct in the study.
Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of
Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism.
Therefore, the Buddhists are sunyavadis. So he said, "No, it is not sunya. That
is Brahman. This material world is false, (indistinct)." Lord Buddha said
everything is false. He said, "No, the material world is false, Brahman is
false, brahma satyam jagan mithya. But he did not give any further information
of Brahman. But at last he said brahma me govindam brahmate bhaja
govindam.
Guest: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he
was walking and someone who knew that Sankaracarya preached this illusion
business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase
Sankaracarya." And of course he did and Sankaracarya started running. So this
man said, "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said, "So is my
running." (laughter) He said, "So is my running, that's also an
illusion."
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Rupanuga: But sometimes the
impersonalists, they say, Prabhupada, that this Krsna consciousness is just the
beginning platform, that after Krsna consciousness then one can come to
impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gita and a
few scriptures teach about Krsna but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about
Krsna's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one
comes to it, after bhakti.
Prabhupada: No. There are Vedas, there are so many
names described. Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If
one has not understood Krsna by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas.
It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Krsna says vedais ca sarvair aham eva
vedyam [Bg. 15.15]? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Krsna, then
his labor is useless. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19].
If one is actually jnanavan, then he (indistinct). Sankaracarya said bhaja
govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the
Vedas, you don't find Krsna's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Krsna
says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. The actual purpose of
studying Vedas means to understand Krsna. If one has not understood Krsna, then
srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They have simply labored for nothing.
Guest:
Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have
today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the
literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't
occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in
the Vedas. This is something that people have...
Prabhupada: No, Krsna's name
is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jiva
Gosvami has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Krsna's name. And this, the best
scholar of Vedas, (indistinct) he says, sa bhagavan svayam krsna, Sankaracarya.
Then other acaryas they have supported Krsna's teachings, just like
Ramanujacarya, and (indistinct) he has quoted Vedic quotation, every sloka. So
one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned,"
(Sanskrit). Everywhere is Krsna's name. But one must be actually scholar in
Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned in the beginning, in the
middle, and at the end."
Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Rg Veda,
(indistinct) example of glorifications of Krsna there?
Prabhupada: Everything
is glorification of Krsna.
Devotee (3): Whenever Krsna is mentioned in the
Vedas, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say, "Well, so
many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Krsna, but Krsna's
mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, (Sanskrit). "Krsna is the
Supreme."
Prabhupada: Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Either
you accept this Krsna's statement, or you reject Krsna. But He says mattah
parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. What do you want more?
Guest: Well, Prabhupadaji,
if anyone has gone to Gita and if he is still bothered by the historical
evidence, I don't think he has read Gita.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest: So we
should never really be bothered by this question of historical...
Prabhupada:
Therefore we have concentrated on Gita. This movement -- when I registered this
association, so when I wrote "Krsna consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't
you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Krsna consciousness. We are particularly
preaching Krsna's teaching. Krsna is God, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28].
But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are
concerned with Krsna. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Krsna.
That is our (indistinct). (aside:) Yes?
Guest (2): There is a Swami,
Gangesvaranandaji, (indistinct) Vedas (indistinct) books that Krsna's name in
the Vedas is mentioned.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Devotee: Krsna's name in the Vedas
is already there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: He has clearly
(indistinct)
Prabhupada: Otherwise how Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva
vedyam [Bg. 15.15]?
Guest (3): The Mayavadis say that Vedanta is impersonal,
and (indistinct) Vedanta...
Prabhupada: You do not know what is Vedanta.
(indistinct) In the beginning of Vedanta, athato brahma jijnasa. "Now try to
inquire about this Supreme, (indistinct) Brahman." The next verse is janmady
asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], Brahman is there, from whom everything emanates. So now,
what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that
thing? That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam is the real
explanation of Veda. Brahma-sutra, (indistinct) mahasyam brahma-sutranam vedasya
parividyatam (?), this Srimad-Bhagavatam, vedasya parividyatam, (indistinct)
avyayam, brahma-sutrasya (?) uvaca, by Vyasadeva himself. Vyasadeva is the
writer of Vedanta-sutra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of
Narada. So to understand Vedanta, you have to study Bhagavatam. He's explained
janmady asya [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmady
asya yatah. So what is the nature? Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca...
(end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase =>
Conversation with Prof. Saligram and Dr. Sukla -- July 5, 1976, Washington,
D.C.
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