"We Must Surrender -- God or Dog"

"We Must Surrender -- God or Dog"

74/06/18 Germany, Bhagavad-gita 2.13



(Prabhupada chants om namo bhagavate vasudevaya and verse with devotees)

Prabhupada: So

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]

So dehinah. Dehinah means the one who possesses this body. That is meaning, the dehinah. Just like in Sanskrit word, guninah. Guninah means one who has got some special attributes. (child cries, Prabhupada chuckles, devotees laugh) He, she is understanding more than anyone else. (laughter) Yes, yes. So asmin dehe. (child cries again) Now... (laughter) You will create disturbance. Yes. So one profit, one loss. You get a child, and another side, you cannot hear. This is karma-kandiya. This is the material world. As soon as you get some profit here, another side loss. As soon as you want to construct a big skyscraper, another side, digging earth. (laughter) Otherwise, where you get? You cannot create. The stones and bricks, you cannot create. You have to dig from somewhere else and pile here. And that is advancement of civilization, to be engaged in digging and piling. (laughter) This is called advancement of civilization. The rascals, they do not think, "Why, uselessly, I am digging and piling? After all, maya will kick me out, and there will (be) no more digging and piling." But they are very much busy. They cannot come to hear Bhagavad-gita. They are very busy. This is called maya.

So dehinah. Dehinah means the possessor of the body. This simple thing, that there is a proprietor of this body, or possessor... If we don't... Actually, we are not proprietor. We are occupier. Just like a rented house. The proprietor is different man. (another child cries) Now again another. (laughter) Everyone is the, knows it, that if you rent a house, the proprietor is different man, and the tenant is the occupier, that much. No proprietorship. So I am the spirit soul. I am not proprietor. I am simply occupier. The, the rascal materialists, they do not know that the proprietor is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He is giving me a particular apartment according to my capacity of paying rent. This is my position. Otherwise, why everyone does not get first-class body, king's body or rich man's body? A child born, immediately he is rich man. So there is no arrangement? And another child born in the same moment is very poor man. Why? This is called karma-kanda. This child is given a room, an apartment, according to his capacity of paying rent. And the other child is given another apartment, very luxurious apartment, according to his capacity of rent-paying. This is called karma-kanda. According to your karma, or work, you get a body, either as a king's son or a cobbler's son or a dog's son or a cat's son or a tree's son or a plant's son. This is the nature. This is to be understood. Krsna said in the last verse that "Don't think we did not exist in the past. We are existing at present, and we shall continue to exist in the future." Exactly like that, that we live in one apartment. Then, if I am able to pay more rent, I transfer to another apartment. Or if I cannot pay the present rent, then I'll have to move to another, less rented apartment. This is called: "I existed in one apartment, Now I am existing in one apartment, and I shall exist in another apartment." So I am eternal; I am simply changing my apartment or dress. This simple thing. Asmin dehe yatha. As kaumaram yauvanam jara, in this life I am experiencing that I changed so many apartments -- I was a child; that apartment I changed into boyhood; then again I changed that apartment into youthhood; then I am old man -- so when this apartment will be vacated, I'll have to accept another apartment. Where is the difficulty to understand? I must possess one apartment or body. The body is the apartment. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. It is just like this apartment. This room is made of bricks, stone and cement. Similarly, this apartment is also made of this stone, brick, or cement. So what is this body? This body and this huge, gigantic..., what is the difference? No difference. Just like here, in the material, in your presence, you see so many rocks. So the bones are like rocks. And so many secretions within the abdomen. At least, we know, there is urine. That is water, just like there are sea water, ocean water. Similarly, if you examine scrutinizingly, the same thing, as the whole material manifestation is made of, this body is also made of. There is no difference. Simply a small quantity and big quantity. The ant's body is also made of the same ingredient, the elephant's body is also made of same ingredient, and this gigantic universe, so many planets, sun, moon and sky, that is also made of the same ingredients. It is only difference of big apartment and small apartment. That's all.

But the proprietor or the occupier of the apartment is different. That is to be understood. He's changing apartments. So that is also explained here. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13]. This kaumaram yauvanam... We say "This is child's body." "This is boy's body." So they are different apartments. And according to the apartment, one's intelligence or consciousness is developed, according to the body. When the living being, or the soul, gets a... That you'll see. A poor man living in a poor cottage or very unclean apartment, his mentality is different. Another gentle, respectable gentleman, he's living in a very nice house, nice apartment, his mentality is different. So according to the circumstances, the mental changes are there. But the poor man is also a human being, and the rich man is also human being. Similarly, these so many apartments, or different types of body, different 8,400,000 types of body, the occupier, the living being, or the soul, is the same quality, but according to the apartment, or body, he has occupied, he has developed different consciousness and mentality. Is it clear or not? Where is the difficulty? They, these rascals, they do not believe in the transmigration of the soul, but where is the difficulty to understand transmigration of the soul? That is very clearly stated. And who is stating? Krsna, the supreme authority. You cannot say, "I don't believe in the transmigration." You may believe or not believe, but this is the fact. This is the fact. What you are? You don't believe? So what is loss there? Or gain there, even if you believe or not believe? Nature's work will go on. You rascal, you believe or not believe. It doesn't matter. Nature's work will go on. If you have done nicely to occupy a first-class apartment, then nature will give you a nice body.

Therefore I say repeatedly... I am saying again that you Western people, Western boys, Western girls, or Western people, you are given very good chance by nature. Therefore, once upon a time the whole European people were dominating all over the world because they're very intelligent. So they have got good intelligence, good resources, good, nice body, beautiful body. Everything is very good. But don't spoil it; utilize it for understanding further good. Don't spoil it simply behaving like cats and dogs. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. Krsna consciousness movement means that you are misled and simply bodily conscious of life. Therefore fight. Germany's fighting Englishman. Englishman is fighting in France. France is fighting. Why this fighting? If you know that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul. Why I am falsely identifying myself with the land?" "I am, I am, I am a German because I am born in this land of Germany." That is also false. No land is Germany or France or England. Land is land. You have falsely named it: "This is Germany." What is the Germany? Say, two hundred years or three hundred years, there was no Germany. Just like America. There was no America. The land was there, but the name was not there. So you have, some Europeans, they have colonized. They accept: "It is America. It is..." So this is all designation.

Actual, the fact is the land belongs not to you, not to the Germans, not to the Englishman, not to the American, but it belongs to God. The land was created by God. So it is God's property. Where is the difficulty to understand? You did not create anything. You did not create even your own body. That proprietor is also Krsna. Because as soon as Krsna asks you, "Please vacate," you must vacate immediately. Can you remain in this body? The proprietor asks you to vacate somehow or other. You have to vacate. Or the proprietor does not repair it. Then you voluntarily vacate, that "This is not to be, no more useful." This is law, going on. And that is... How nicely it is explained. Dehinah asmin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. As we have changed so many different types of body even in this duration of life... Now, how this change is taking place, that you cannot imagine. Therefore we say the same body. But actually it is not the same body. The body is different. It is changing. And because the person, the soul, is there, therefore it is changing. And as soon as the person is not there... Suppose in a child's body, a born baby, a dead body, it will not grow or it will not change. So long the soul is there, it will change. So Krsna said that "We existed in the past." This is authoritative statement. So it is to be understood that I existed in the past in different body. As I existed, say, seventy years before in a different body, I was jumping as a boy, now I cannot jump. Now I have to take the stick. This is a different body. So where is the difficulty to understand? If the same body had been, then I could jump like a boy. I remember that I jumped. But now it is not possible. I have to take help of three men. (laughter) So it is different body. Although imperceptibly it has changed, but the body is different. Body's different.

So in this way, if we try to understand, dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhira, those who are intelligent and sober, they are called dhira, not disturbed mind, not rascals. Rascals cannot understand. Therefore the very word is used, dhira. What is the meaning, dhira? Dhira, "the sober," those who have got brain substance, not cow dung. You see? They can understand. Therefore one has to become intelligent, dhira. For spiritual understanding we have to create the favorable circumstances. Favorable circumstances... Just like to create healthy body, you have to remain in such a way that you'll not fall sick; similarly, dhira means if you try to remain just like cats and dogs, then you remain as a cats and dog, but if you want to remain as a human being, then you must remain as perfect human being. Therefore no illicit sex. The cats and dogs, they can have illicit sex, and if the human being also have the same process, then where is the difference between cats and dogs? Therefore you have to be cautious not to become cats and dogs, but to remain as human being. Then you'll be dhira, sober, not agitated. Therefore this very word is used. It is not understood by the cats and dogs. If I say to the cats and dog that, "You are not this body. You are simply possessing this body," it is useless because he has got a certain body that he cannot understand even instructing him for one thousand years, because he has got a different body, cats' and dogs' body. But in the human form of body there is possibility. That is the difference between cats' and dogs' body and human body.

So to become dhira means not to use this, I mean to say, very important, very useful body, human body, to pass as cats and dogs. That is very dangerous. It is a great loss. Prahlada Maharaja instructed this. Durlabham manusam janma. We have to (be) very, mean, intelligent to understand that "I have got this body. Must be after many, many births." That is the evolutionary theory. I can understand that this tree... That is also a living being, but it is standing there for thousands of years. Thousands of years, they are standing. So many Napoleons, so many Kaisers, so many Hitlers came and gone, but the tree is standing. That is a punishment. But that is also a living being. It is also growing. As your body is growing or changing, that body's also growing and changing, unless you pour water on the root of the tree, no eating, then it will die. Similarly, if you don't eat, you'll die. You'll die. There is no difference. It is the simply different methods of living. That's all. The cats and dogs living in a certain method. The human being is living in a certain method. The trees are living in a certain method. The fish in the waters, they are living in the certain method. But the eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there. Is there. So according to the different bodies, they're living differently.

So all living entities, as Krsna said, that "They existed," so existed in a different body. Now existing in a different body. This is called evolution or transmigration. This is... The evolution... Evolution theory is there. Not theory, fact. In the Padma Purana... It is not Darwin's invention. There is... Asatim caturam caiva jiva-jatisu. As clearly stated, the evolution theory is, evolution fact is there are 8,400,000 different species of life, and the living entity passing, transmigrating, from one, another, one, another. Therefore, when one comes to this human form of body, Prahlada Maharaja says, durlabham manusam janma: "It is very rarely... This human form of body is very..." Why it is so rare? Now arthadam adhruvam. We shall die also. We shall give up this body like the cats and dogs. But I can get a sublime knowledge in this body. The cats and dogs cannot get. Therefore we should utilize this. So to understand this importance of this body is explained here, that "I am not this body. I am a spirit soul. I have been given a type of body by the material nature under the order of Krsna and God." Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. This, these things are going on by the nature's law. The law is so perfect. Just like I have given several times that if you infect some disease, the nature's law is so perfect that you must suffer from that disease, unless you take precaution. Everyone knows that any infections disease... That is... You see in the SB.. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.13 -- Germany, June 18, 1974

"God Is Individual Person"

66/03/07 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


Prabhupada: So last day we were speaking about the eleventh, eleventh, Second Chapter, eleventh verse. Just read it. Second Chapter, eleventh verse.

Devotee: "In fact, there was never..." "Arjuna, you grieve over those who should not be grieved for, and yet speak like the learned wise men who do not sorrow over the dead or the living."

Prabhupada: Yes. You have marked it? With pen? Yes. So we have finished this sloka. The next verse is

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

What is the translation?

Devotee: "In fact there was never a time when I was not, or you or these kings were not, nor is it a fact that hereafter we shall cease to be."

Prabhupada: Yes. Now...

Devotee: "...we shall ever..."

Prabhupada: Krsna is trying to convince Arjuna that death does not take place. He says clearly that "Myself -- I am the Supreme God, Krsna -- yourself, you, and all the other kings and the soldiers, those who have assembled in this great battlefield, it is not that in the past, we were not existing. And in the present, we are now face to face. We are seeing that we are existing. And in the future, we shall also exist in the same way." "In the same way" means individually. Just like I am an individual person. You are an individual person. He is an individual person. So I, you, he, or they -- first person, second person and the third person -- so that individuality continues. Individuality of every living being is a fact. Therefore in the actual field also, we see that we have got difference of opinion. What I think, you may not agree with me because you have got your individuality. Similarly, your thinking may not be agreed by another gentleman. So everyone has got his individuality. That is a fact. Not that the... Just like there is a class of philosophers who says that the soul is a homogeneous, one entity, and after the destruction, after the annihilation of this body, the soul, as a substance, will mix up. Just like water. You keep in different pots. In different pots you keep water. So the water takes the shape of the pot, the bowl, round bowl. You keep water. The water takes the shape of round. So similarly, there are thousands of, or millions of, waterpots, and suppose all the waters are mixed up. Then there is no distinction. Just like they were in the pots. So their theory is that when a soul is liberated then the, that it mixes up with the Supersoul. Just like a drop water taken from the sea water and again put it into the sea, it mixes up. It loses its identity.

So that is one theory. But here Lord Krsna says that "Myself, yourself, and all others who have come here..." There were about sixty millions of people assembled in that fight. It was not a small fight. In India there was... Of course, that was also great world, world war. Just like we had experience... I think in the First World War none of you had seen because you were all young men. And we were child. When the First World War was declared, we were all boys, schoolchildren. My age was at that time fourteen years old, in 1914, when there was fight declared between Germany and Belgium. So that was the First World War. Then Second World War was in 1939. That was also German and Englishmen, like that. But actually, this was also World War, this Battlefield of Kuruksetra, because all the kings of the world, they joined either this party or that party. So there were a great assembly of all worldly kings. Now, Krsna says that "Either Myself, either yourself, or these persons who have assembled here, they are individual. They were individuals in the past, they are now individuals, and they will continue to be individual even after annihilation of this body." Now, how you'll adjust? There are two theories, that after liberation all these souls, they become one. Just like all drops of water, if you put into the sea, they become one entity. There is no distinction. And the Lord Krsna says that "No, they keep their individuality. They do not mix." Now we are supposed... We are all laymen. We are ignorant, what is actually position, what is the actual position. But we have got our discretion also. Just like every one of you has some knowledge in the history. Now, in the history in the past... Suppose you are now thirty years old or thirty- five years old, and suppose two hundred years before, the history which you read, you find that all people were individuals. And at the present you are experiencing that all individual, they are. All living entities -- either human being, or animals or birds, or anywhere -- you can see that they are individual. Then why should you not believe that in future they will remain individual? Do you follow? In the past they were individuals, in the present they are individuals, and why not in future they'll remain individuals? It is naturally concluded that they will continue to be individuals. Even we do not have any sufficient knowledge in either of these two theories, mixing up or keeping individual, but by our own small reasoning we can understand that in the future history we have information that there were individual persons. At the present moment also, we are seeing that there are individual persons. So why not in the future? How it is that in the future they'll mix up and become one, homogeneous thing? It is quite reasonable. And this conclusion is like this: just like in two hundred years before, in the month of March, the climatic position was like this. And in 1966 we find in March the climatic position is exactly the same. And in future... Naturally I conclude that in future in March the same climatic condition will be there. In astronomy also, if you find that in March, in such and such date, the sun rising is like this, and actually in the present March, month of March, 1966, we see the same exact time... And the whole calculation of astronomy is made like that. They prepare hundred years' astronomical charts. Hundred years'. How they do prepare? By this calculation, that in the past it was like this, at the present it is like this, so naturally, in future it will be like this. Just like you are speaking of the imminent springtime, that the nature, how will be decorate, how springtime, it will be nice, because you had past experience. So you are foretelling. It is not foretelling. From past experience, you are telling that this will take place. This will take place.

So this is another point, to understand things by our reasoning. But there are things which is beyond our reasoning. There are things, just like God, the existence of God. Of course, by our reasoning, we take it for granted that because everything has a creator... Just like we have this tape recorder before us. So we know that there is a manufacturer. Similarly, the typewriter, there is a manufacturer. In everything there is a father or manufacturer. Myself, I am, I am created by my father. My father was created by his father. Similarly, naturally we can conclude that this whole cosmic situation, the whole material manifestation -- there is one creator. You see? So these are simple reasoning. It is not very hard to understand. But at the same time, there are things which are beyond our experience, beyond our reasoning, beyond our, I mean to say, conception. Those things are called acintya. Acintya means inconceivable. Inconceivable.

Now, how to understand that which is beyond our conception? The scriptures says like this, acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet: "Anything which is beyond our conception, beyond our reasoning power, beyond our approach of the material senses, such things we should not try to have conception simply by arguments." So in the Vedic injunction it is said that tarkah apratistha: "By... What should be the... What should be our real understanding, that we cannot establish simply by argument." Tarkah apratisthah smrtayo vibhinnah: "If we consult different scriptures, then we'll find that one scripture is speaking something, another scripture is speaking something else." Just like cow-killing. Take, take it for example. The Hindus, they say that cow-killing is irreligious. The Muhammadans say, "No, cow-killing is religious." There is some adjustment, but... Now, in the scripture I see that the cow-killing, in some scriptures it is said that cow-killing is irreligious, and another scripture says that cow-killing is religious. So which of them I shall accept? This is ni... This is all right, or that is all right? So therefore it is said that smrtayo vibhinnah. If you consult different scriptures, you'll find different contradictory statements. Your scripture may be different from my scripture. And nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. If you consult philosophers, you'll find one philosopher is differing from another philosopher. A big philosopher means who has cut down other philosophers and put up his own theory, "This is true." This is going on. So tarko 'pratisthah smrtayo vibhinna nasau munir yasya matam na bhinnam. Then how to conclude what is the right path? I cannot establish it by my imperfect arguments. I cannot consult even the scriptures. Neither I can take real instruction from different philosophers. Then what, what is the way of having the real thing? So it says that dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: "The truth of religiosity is very confidential, very secret." So how to know it? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah: [Cc. Madhya 17.186] "We have simply to see that great personalities, as they have taken up, we have to follow. That's all." Just like in your Christian religion you may not understand all the Biblical injunctions or you may not have the time, but you'll simply, if you follow the ideal life of Lord Jesus Christ, then you get the same result. Similarly, the Muhammadans, if they follow the ideal life of Muhammad, Hazrat Muhammad, so they get the result. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Just like in a unknown path, in a village, especially when there is a field... Now, in, in the city, you can know that "I have come so far" because the streets are numbered and the, you have got the location and there are some symptoms, this house or that house. But in the country, everything, every, every place is of the same similar nature, the same jungle, the same field, the same grass. We do not know where I am going. Or in the sea. Or in the sea. I have got experience. Have you ever traveled in the sea? No. But when I was coming from India, so everywhere I see a round only, round of water. I do not know which way the ship is proceeding. You see? But they have got a chart. They have got a chart. By latitude, longitude, by time and by chart, they are calculating. Now, I was asking the Captain, "Where we have come?" He was saying, in the Mediterranean Sea, "Oh, we are so many miles from Italy. We are so many miles from..." Like this. "Tunisia. Now we are coming to Gibraltar." Like this. But I was seeing all vast of water only. I was seeing, "Just after ten miles I shall reach," but it never reaches. So then how, what are these charts? The charts are that experienced sailors, they have made the charts. The captain was also consulting that chart because it was made by experienced sailors. That is nothing. So similarly in calculating in which way we have to find out our salvation is to follow such liberated souls.

So last day we had been discussing that difference between the conditioned soul and liberated soul is that a conditioned soul is imperfect in four ways. A conditioned soul is sure to commit mistake, a conditioned soul is in illusion, a conditioned soul has the tendency for cheating others, and a conditioned soul has got his senses imperfect, imperfect senses. Therefore knowledge should be taken from a liberated soul. Why this Bhagavad-gita is so honored? Now, this Bhagavad-gita was spoken in India, and it is understood that it is a scripture of the Hindus. But why...? Now, you are Americans. You are also keeping this Bhagavad-gita, and not only in America, in other countries also, in Germany. In Germany there are great, great scholars, in England, in Japan, in all countries. So why? Because it is spoken by a great personality. Apart from... We may... We Hindus, we accept Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but others, even not accepting Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they accept it as, at least, that He was a great personality. Therefore, besides the Hindu community, others, they are also consulting the knowledge. Now, my point is that when such a great personality, and when a..., we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then His version is right. What He says, that from our practical experience we can conclude that every individual persons who were in the past individuals, they are also individuals at the present, and they'll continue to be individuals, and this is by our common sense, but it is confirmed by Sri Krsna, whom we call the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He is accepted as a great personality. He says, na tu eva aham jatu nasam: "Don't think that I was not in existence." That means "I was in existence," not that "Just now I have come before you as God, as Sri Krsna. I was Sri Krsna in the past also, and I am Sri Krsna at the present. So also yourself, and so also others -- all individuals. So and at the present we are." Na caiva na bhavisyamah: "And don't think that we shall not remain." Sarve. This sarve means "we all," not that... Sarve is plural number. Janadhipah is plural number. "So they are all individual souls." So the individual soul continues. That is the version. That is the version of the Bhagavad-gita, and we... It is better to accept this version without unnecessarily commenting it or interpreting it in a different way so that one... Interpretation is very bad. You see? A scripture should not be interpreted. A scripture should be taken as it is, as it is. And besides that, interpretation... When interpretation is required? When a thing is not properly understood, at that time, interpretation is required. Otherwise, there is no necessity of interpretation. Just like you..., that "Such and such village" or "such and such town is on the sea." Somebody says. Now, the person who hears that "Such and such town is on the sea," and he may be confused: "How is that? On the, on the water, how there can be a town?" So there is explanation required. Now that explanation is that " ‘On the sea' does not mean ‘in the midst of the sea,' but ‘on the bank of the sea.' " Here is an interpretation. So similarly, a thing which is very clear to everyone, so there is no necessity of interpretation. Here the, the statement of Bhagavad-gita as by, spoken by Lord Krsna, is very clear, that "Myself, yourself and all these people who have assembled here, they are all individual persons. And they were individual persons in the past, and at the present moment, we see that they are individual persons, and they will continue. They will continue." I may not know what they will become in the future, but because He is God, because He is the Supreme Personality, His statement should be accepted. That makes my knowledge perfect. Just like I give you one very simple example. Now, if a little boy asks his mother that "Who is my father?" The mother says that "Here is your father." Now, if the child says, "I don't believe it, that he is my father," is it possible to convince him in any other way than the statement of the mother? Is it possible? No. That is the final. That is the final. And if he says, "I don't believe it," that is his foolishness. Similarly, a thing which is beyond our conception, beyond our limit of knowledge, that should be taken from the authority.

So here is an authority, Sri Krsna. Authority. His authority, authorityship, is accepted by all over the world. In, in our India there are five different disciplic succession of authorities, just like the Sankarites, followers of Sankaracarya, and Vaisnavites. Generally, they are two: Mayavadi, impersonalists; and personalists. The personalist school, philosophers, they are divided into four: Ramanuja-sampradaya -- that means followers of Acarya Ramanuja; Madhvacarya-sampradaya, or the followers of Madhvacarya; Nimbarka-sampradaya, followers of Nimbarka Acarya; and Visnusvami-sampradaya. They, their conclusion is the same. Although they are four in number, their conclusion is the same. And another sect is Sankarite sampradaya. So all these four, I mean, five different section of the Hindus, they accept Sri Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. All of them. There is no denial. Although they are five, they have got different theses and philosophies, little, little difference, not, I mean, conclusion, but still... Now, Sripada Sankaracarya, he, he is supposed, he is considered to be impersonalist. Impersonalist means he does not believe in the personal form of God. But still, he has commented in this, of this Bhagavad-gita, Sankara-bhasya. He has admitted there that "Sri Krsna is the Personality of Godhead." He has also admitted. Others, they are Vaisnavites, other acaryas, other authorities, they are Vaisnavites. They have naturally admitted because they believe from the beginning. But even Sankaracarya, who is impersonalist, he has also clearly written that sa bhagavan svayam krsnah: "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And there are many evidences in many scriptures and Vedic scriptures that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In the Brahma-samhita it is stated,

isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]

Isvarah paramah. Isvara. Isvara means the Lord. Now, there are different lords, different lords, degree. Lord means controller or proprietor. So you have got some lordship over your environment. He has got some lordship. I have got some lordship. He has got some lordship. Or the President Johnson, he has got some lordship. In this way you'll find different degrees of lordship. But here it is said that the supreme, superlative degree Lord is Krsna. Above Him, there is no other Lord. Here we shall find that you are bigger lord than me, he is bigger than lord you, and somebody is bigger than him. In this way you can approach the lordship of Johnson. Then you can see another man. He is more than Johnson; another man, more than Johnson, like that. But when you reach Sri Krsna by such analytical process, you'll find that nobody is greater, nobody is equal than Sri Krsna. Therefore Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And He says something -- we must agree to accept it. (laughs) We must... If we don't agree, that will not be beneficial for us. When a great man says something... And He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is saying that we are all individual persons. We are all individual persons. God is also individual person. It is confirmed in the Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). Nityo nityanam. Nitya means eternal. We are all eternal. This is plural number. So amongst all the eternal living entities, He is the chief. This is a definition of God, is given in the... Nityo nitya. Cetananam, nit..., cetanas cetananam: "We are all conscious, conscious beings." So He is the supreme conscious. He is the supreme conscious. Now, of course, there are some yogic schools. In America you'll find. They do not believe in God. But it is not actually... The yoga principle does not deny the existence of God. God is there.

Now, just to inform you I have just brought one very authoritative book by two great professors of Calcutta University. The book is called Introduction to Indian Philosophy. Now he says... "He says" means he is giving, after studying all different kinds of philosophy, he is giving a nutshell idea of each type of system. Now, just see: "The place of God in the yoga... The place of God in the yoga, as distinguished from the Sankhya, the yoga is theistic." Yoga system was introduced by Lord Patanjali, a great authority. You see? Now they have studied. Here is two persons. And this book is very authoritative. This is the sixth edition. Just see. It has very good sale in all the universities of the world. It is a very authoritative book. And this Dr. Chatterjee and Dr. Datta, they are not ordinary persons. This is accepted by all universities. And they are authoritative persons. Now, just... I am therefore reading his version. What does he say? The yoga system. Now, "As distinguished from the Sankhya, the yoga is theistic." Yoga system is theistic. Theistic means believing in God. (From here for about four pages, Prabhupada is mostly reading from the Indian Philosophy book.) It admits the existence of God and both practical and theoretical Gods. Patanjali himself, however, has not felt the necessity of God for solving any theoretical problem of philosophy. For him, God has more a practical value than a theoretical one. This is the version of Patanjali. You see?

Devotion to God is considered to be the great practical value, as much as it forms a part of practice of yoga. Those who are practicing yoga, they must be devotee of God. Otherwise, yoga will be a failure. You see? So inasmuch as it forms a part of practice of yoga and is one of the means for the final attainment of samadhi-yoga or the restraint of the mind... That yoga, citta-niruddha. The whole purpose of practicing yoga is to control the mind, control the mind. Now, here Patanjali system, that unless you, I mean, conduct devotional service of Lord, or bhakti, there is no success of yoga. The subsequent commentators and interpreters... The difficulty is that wrong interpretation of the original text delude the audience. You see? So they are... The subsequent commentators and interpreters of the yoga reveals also a theoretical interest in God and discuss more fully the speculative problems as to the nature of God and the proof for the existence of God. They practically take up the speculative way. But Patanjali, as he is, he takes practically, that without devotion of God, there is no success of yoga. Thus the yoga system has come to have both a theoretical and practical interest in the divine will. According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person. Now just see. This is authoritative statement. A Supreme Person. Did you ever hear...? You have been in so many yoga societies. Did you ever hear that God is the Supreme Person? Now just see.

According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person who is above all individual selves and is free from all defects. Now, the same thing, in the Bhagavad-gita also, Lord Krsna, He, He is telling. He is informing us about the future or of the past because He is perfect. He can see both past and future. Because we are not perfect, because we do not know... Now, accepting it that you existed in, in your, in the future... Say your age is thirty-four, thirty-five years. Can you say, thirty-six years before, where you were? You cannot say. Or suppose you live for hundred years. Can you say hundred years after where you shall be? You cannot say because you are imperfect, because you are imperfect. So God is not imperfect. God is perfect being. Here yoga system also accept like that. According to the yoga, God is the Supreme Person who is above all individual... Individual, now here you see the individual. The every, every living entity is individual. That, this particular word, that individual self and is free from all defects. And because He's free from all defects, His statement is defectless. And therefore we must admit. My statement, because I am imperfect, my statement is also imperfect. I have no idea of the past and future. How can I say that in future you will be like this, or in the past you were like this? I cannot say. That, who is defectless -- who can see past, future and present equally, and there is no defect -- he can say.

So here is the statement of the Supreme Person. We have to believe it. We cannot go out of it. If we don't believe it, then we are loser. If we don't believe it, then we are loser. He is the perfect being who is eternal and all-pervading. Just see, all-pervading. That means, although you can see Him as a person... Just like you are present before me as a person, but you are absent in your residence. Is it not? But God is not like that. God is, although He's present, Krsna, although He's present just before Arjuna, instructing him, but He's all-pervading at the same time. A crude example. Just like at twelve o'clock in the mid-day, you see that the sun is above your head. And five thousand miles away, if you ask any friend, "Where is the sun?" he'll say, "It is on my head." Five thousand miles this way, that way, you inquire, and everyone will say, "The sun is on my head." So if a material thing... Sun is a material thing. If a material entity can be so all-pervading, at one and the same time, so is it not that the supreme spiritual being, He'll not be all-pervading? He is, certainly. He must be. He must be.

So here you see that He is the perfect being who is eternal... And eternal. Eternal means that... Eternal means everything. Eternal in consciousness. Now, Krsna says that "You and Myself and all these beings were like this" because He has got eternal consciousness. He has actually experienced what I was. But because my consciousness is not eternal, I have forgotten what I was in my previous birth. Neither I can say what I shall be in my next birth. These are the distinctions. If we falsely claim that "I am God, I am that supreme consciousness," it is our lunacy. It is our lunacy. We should not indulge in that way, and anyone teaching in that way, that is a cheating. It is not possible. Here is an authoritative book. He is the perfect being who is eternal and all-pervading, omnipotent, omniscient. All individual selves are more or less subject to the affliction of ignorance. We are, all living entities except God, everyone, everyone, they are subjected to ignorance, forgetfulness.

That's a fact. Ignorance, egoism. Egoism means that without having the qualification, one declares that "I am God." This is egoism. Without having the qualification of God, if one declares that "I am God," a foolish man, that is called egoism. Egoism, desire, aversion and dread of death. They have to do various kinds of work, good, bad, and indifferent, and reap the consequences thereof. That means they are subjected to the acts of your, I mean to say, reaction of their acts. If you do some good thing, then you reap the good result. If you do some bad thing, then you reap the bad result. And because we are defective, therefore we do something good, sometimes bad.

The best thing is, therefore, that God is all-good. If we follow God, then we become good. If we follow God or God's representative, then we also become good. Because God is always good. A good cannot give you bad direction. Therefore devotional service... It is incumbent that everyone should be followers. Everyone should be followers of the instruction of God. That is devotional service. Nobody should be deviated from the service of the Lord. The whole Bhagavad-gita... This is the beginning, and at the end, Lord will instruct, I mean to say, Arjuna, that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You just surrender unto Me"; and aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah: "And I shall protect you, give you protection from all reactions of sinful life." The best thing is, if we want to be all-good, then we have to follow the instruction of all-good. We have to mold our life in such a way that what is advised by the all-good... That will make our life perfect. Next we shall... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- New York, March 7, 1966

"Don't Be Animalistic Scholar"

75/02/12 Mexico, Bhagavad-gita 2.12



Prabhupada: Read the translation.

Hrdayananda: (Spanish) (translates into Spanish throughout lecture)

Prabhupada:

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

So Krsna began His teaching to Arjuna, chastising him that "You do not know anything; still, you are talking like a learned man." This is the fault of a person without any spiritual knowledge. Every man in this material world is almost without any spiritual knowledge. Still, they are proud of their learning, their knowledge, their degrees. This is going on. When Sanatana Gosvami approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he first of all presented himself as a person without knowledge. Sanatana Gosvami was coming of a very brahmana, aristocratic family. He was very learned scholar in Sanskrit and Urdu; still, he presented himself before Caitanya Mahaprabhu as a foolish man. So actually that is the position. He said, gramya-vyavahare pandita, tai satya mani, apanara hitahita kichui na jani. He said that "These common men say that I am very learned pandita, but I am such a rascal, I do not know what I am."

So this is the position for everyone. You ask any learned scientist, professor, "Who are you?" He'll say, "I am Mr. John." He'll say, "I am Mr. John, I am American," or "I am Mexican," "I am Indian," like that. So this is ignorance. Nobody is this body. That is the first lesson of spiritual knowledge. So long we identify with this body, that "I am Mr. Such-and-such," "I am American," "I am Indian," this is all ignorance. When you actually understand that you are not this body -- therefore you are not American, nor Indian nor Mexican, but you are spirit soul -- then your spiritual education begins. And that is... In Sanskrit it is called aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul." Spiritual... Spirit soul has no connection with this material world. When one understands fully this, I mean to say, fact, that spirit soul is different from this material world, then he's actually learned. In that stage he's called situated in brahma-bhutah stage. The symptom of brahma-bhutah is brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as one becomes self-realized, he becomes jubilant, jolly. So long one identifies with this body, he is unhappy, full of anxiety.

So Bhagavad-gita begins with this point, that one should know that he is not this material body. That knowledge is lacking at the present moment throughout the whole world. Yes. Everyone is identifying with this body like the animals. Therefore Krsna chastised Arjuna that "You have got animalistic concept of life and still speaking like a very learned scholar. No learned scholar laments on account of this body." It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dhira... Dhira means one who is sober by education. He is not disturbed. Just like when a man dies, his relatives lament, cry, "My father is gone. My father is gone. My father is no more," or "My son is no more." Anyway, they lament like that. But if he is little sober, he can understand, he can study, that "I am lamenting, ‘My father is gone,' ‘my son is gone,' but he's not gone. He's lying on the bed or on the floor. Then why I am speaking ‘gone'?" If some friend asks him, "Why you are lamenting, ‘my father is gone,' ‘my son is gone'? He's lying here," but still he will say, "No, he's not. He may be lying there, but he's gone." That is puzzle. He's lying there and gone? What is this contradiction? That is the point to understand about the soul. The relative is lamenting, crying, "My father is gone." That means he never saw his father; he saw the body only. But at the time of death of his father he understands that this father is not this body; that is soul.

So when we come to this understanding that every one of us, we may be in different body, but we are not this body, we are spirit soul, so that time, our actual knowledge begins. Now Krsna is describing what is the nature of that soul. He says... Whenever we sit down together we say "I, you and they," first person, second person and third person, "I, you, or he." There cannot be more than these three. I can say "I," I can say "you," and I can say "he." So Krsna says in this verse that na tu eva aham jatu: "Either I, you, or he, none of us ever born." Because we are not this body, the birth takes place of the body, not of the soul. The soul is described here that he does not take birth. It is not that he was not existing in the past; now he has taken birth. It is not like that. It is not like that, that the soul did not exist in the past; now he's existing. There are some philosophers, they think like that, that the living symptom was not existing before, and by the combination of matter the living force is there. But that is not the fact. The living being is there; therefore the life symptoms are there in the body. Therefore, when a man dies, because we do not know about the living force, we cry that "My father, my son, has gone."

So we should acquire knowledge from the authority. Krsna is the authority. He says that "All of us -- you, me, and all the others who have come to join this fighting -- it is not that they did not exist in the past. They existed. We existed, all, in the past, we are existing now, and after so-called death, or after quitting this body, we shall still exist." Now, the question will be "How I shall exist, either as American, Indian, or something else?" So that is very intelligent question. First of all, we have to understand that I, you, every one of us existed in the past, so how I existed in the past and how I shall exist in future? So past is past; that is gone. Now I am existing as a human being. It is my duty to understand how I shall exist in future. That is intelligence. If we do not prepare for the next life, then we are animals. Just like the human society. There is education. The father gives education to the child, thinking about his future. The cats and dogs, they do not give any education, neither they know what is the meaning of education. That is the difference between human being and animal. So if we are not educated in the matter of understanding what is our future, then we are no better than the animals. Yes. That education we can have in this human form of life. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.

yanti deva-vrata devan
pitrn yanti pitr-vratah
bhutani yanti bhutejya
yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam
[Bg. 9.25]

The process is there. You can prepare your next life in this life. Just like they are attempting to go to the moon planet, but the fact is they could not go there. Why they could not go there? The reason is that wherever you go, you must be fit for that place. Even in this planet, suppose somebody goes from one place to another place. He has to make himself fit to go there. He must know what is the temperature there. Accordingly, he'll take his dress. Then he'll have to take permission of the state, visa, passport. So many things you have to arrange. Then you can go, not that all of a sudden anyone can come to your country, Mexico, without arrangement. Similarly, if you want to go to the higher planetary system, then you have to make your arrangement in this life. You cannot go to the moon planet by force because you have got a tiny airplane. That is not possible. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says, yanti deva-vrata devan [Bg. 9.25]. A man can go to the higher planetary system when he is preparing himself to go there. So there are millions and trillions of planets. Wherever you want, you can go. The descriptions are there in the sastra. But there is another description, the kingdom of God. That kingdom of God is there beyond this material sky. So we have to take information where that spiritual world is there. You can have it from Vedic literature. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanah [Bg. 8.20]. There is another nature, the spiritual nature, which is beyond this material nature. That material nature... Vyaktavyakta means some portion is manifested and some portion is not manifested. And we get information from Bhagavad-gita that the spiritual nature is beyond this manifested and nonmanifested cosmic situation. So Krsna says, the supreme authority says, mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. If somebody cultivates Krsna consciousness, he can go there. It is not difficult; simply you have to change your mode of life. To become Krsna conscious means to be pure in the original spiritual existence. We are pure as Brahman, as spirit soul, but because we have contaminated these material modes of nature, our consciousness is now different. So on account of different consciousness, there are three classes of men. One class of men is very intelligent; one class of men, very passionate; and one class of men, fools and rascals. So in order to understand your promotion to the spiritual world, you have to become first-class man. First-class man means brahmana. A brahmana means he is truthful, he is self-controlled, he is simple, he is tolerant... In this way there are nine qualification to become first-class man. And to become first-class man, the preliminary qualification is that you should not become sinful.

So instead of becoming sinful, to become pious, you simply follow these four regulative principles. The first principle is illicit sex. That is forbidden. Sex is not forbidden, but illicit sex is forbidden. That is not very difficult. Everyone wants. That is the necessity of the body, that sex. As we want to eat, as we want to sleep, similarly, there is sex desire. But if you want to become first-class man, then don't have illicit sex. Except marriage, do not have sex. The human society... Therefore, human society, there is marriage. There is no marriage in the dog society. So therefore, sex life within marriage and regulative principle, that is not prohibited. That means anyone who follows these rules and regulation, he becomes purified and pious. Without becoming purified and pious, you cannot understand God. It is said therefore in the Bhagavad-gita,

yesam tv anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmukta
bhajante mam drdha-vratah
[Bg. 7.28]

A person who is completely free from sinful activities, such person can become a devotee, a lover of God. So this Krsna consciousness movement is teaching to the human society how to become purified. There is no such restriction that "This man can be purified; that man cannot be." No, there is nothing like that. Everyone can be purified if he desires to be so. So immediately we may not be able to purify. As it is prescribed -- no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication -- it may not be possible because those who are accustomed, it is difficult to give up. Therefore the process is given very simple: "Chant Hare Krsna." So purification is absolute. That is necessary. Without purification, you cannot understand God. But the method we are prescribing... Not we are prescribing; it is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's prescription. We are simply propagating that "Chant Hare Krsna." Yes.

So I am very glad to see that you Mexican young boys, girls, ladies and gentlemen are coming here and joining the chanting Hare Krsna mantra. So I request you to continue this procedure. Please come here, join this chanting of Hare Krsna mantra, and take prasadam and go home. And surely you'll be purified and qualified for going back to home, back to Godhead. [break]

Hrdayananda: (translating from Spanish) So he is asking what type of piety is required to understand God.

Prabhupada: That we have already said: no illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication.

Hrdayananda: (translates questions from Spanish) He wants to know if within marriage it is possible to achieve perfection.

Prabhupada: Yes. Human being is meant for marriage, not the cats and dogs. If you can remain without marriage, without sex life, that is very good, but if you cannot, then marry and be gentleman and remain peaceful.

Hrdayananda: (translates) If one can achieve Krsna consciousness outside the temple?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You have to follow the rules and regulation, that's all.

Hrdayananda: He said, "If there is a spiritual world, what is it like, and what are the activities of Krsna there?"

Prabhupada: The same activities. Simply there is no sinful activity, that's all.

Hrdayananda: When one breaks the principles, can Krsna forgive him?

Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna can forgive you once, twice, not regularly. (laughter)

Hrdayananda: Sometimes people come and join our movement and follow the four principles, and even so, there appears to be some fault in their character in terms of their treatment of other people who come to the temple. So he says that he feels undoubtedly that by following the process gradually the defects will be eliminated, but is there any way to more rapidly...

Prabhupada: If a man comes, follows the regulative principle even for some time and again he falls down, so so long he has followed, that asset is permanent. Anything, spiritual asset, that is never lost. So little, little, little, when it is complete, cent percent, then you become liberated. Spiritual asset is never lost. So even a person comes to the temple and follows the regulative principle for some time -- again he falls down -- he's not loser; he's gainer. Others who do not take this lesson and outside they may perform his so-called duties very perfectly, he's loser. So at least for some time let every one of you come here and follow the restriction. And if you become perfect, is all right, but even if you go away, whatever you have done, that is your permanent asset. That is stated in the Bhagavad... Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. And even that little asset can help you to become free from the greatest danger. There are many examples. They are stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Therefore, in this human form of life, at least we shall try to get some spiritual asset. So, in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, even such person falls down, he is given chance next life to take birth in very rich, aristocratic family or in a very pious brahmana family. So, little spiritual asset in this human form of life will at least guarantee your next life in a very nice family. But without spiritual life there is no guarantee whether you are going to become human being or cat or dog. That's all right. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- Mexico, February 12, 1975

"What Abortionists Don't Know"

"What Abortionists Don't Know"

73/08/18 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."

Prabhupada: This is a very important verse. The modern scientists, philosophers, they say that after finishing this body, we no more exist, finished, everything finished. This is not new. In olden times also there were atheists like Carvaka Muni, he also said like that: bhasmi-bhutasya dehasya kutah punar agamano bhavet. Now why you are worrying about next life? As soon as this body is burned into ashes, everything is finished. According to Vedic funeral ritualistic ceremony, the body is burned. There are three ends of the body, either to become stool, or to become ashes, or to become earth. Those who are burying the body, just like the Christian, Mohammedans do, the body becomes earth. Everything, from the earth it has come up: "Dust thou were, dust thou beist." This beautiful body, nice body, will become earth. And those who are burning, so their body becomes ashes. And those who throw the body to be eaten by jackals and crows, they become stool. This is the end of the body. We are taking so much care of this body, but the ultimate end of this body is either stool, earth or ashes. So foolish persons who are in the bodily concept of life, they are thinking: "After all, this body will be finished. So so long the body is there, senses are there, let us enjoy. Why so much restrictions, no illicit sex, no gambling? No. These are all nonsense. Let us enjoy life." This is atheistic life. Foolish life. They do not know, so the body is not all.

This is the first lesson to understand, what is spiritual life, what is spiritual knowledge. But all rascals, they do not know. Therefore Krsna first of all slapped Arjuna: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You do not know what is the fact, and talking like a very learned man. Just try to understand what is truth." Na tv evaham jatu nasam. First thing is that nasam, we have no nasam. We never die, that will be explained later on more clearly, we do not die. Nasam. At any time. It is not that sometimes we die and sometimes... No. Any time, jatu. At any time. So: "Sir, You are Supreme Personality of Godhead, You may not die. But we die, we are ordinary living entities." So Krsna says, nasam, na tv evaham jatu nasam na tvam: "Neither you nor I. We never die." "So it may be I am Your friend and You are Krsna.

Therefore the others will die." No. Neme janadhipah: "Neither these, all these people, all these soldiers, (and) the kings who have assembled here, they'll also not die. There is no end. They'll never die." So, na caiva na bhavisyamah, it is not that we did not exist in the past, and we are existing at present. That is everyone knows. So in the future, don't think that we may not exist. Na bhavisyamah. It is not that we shall not exist in the future. Na bhavisyamah, not exist, and another not. Two nots make one yes. Two negatives make one positive. So therefore, we have two negatives. Na caiva na bhavisyamah. Na bhavisyamah means not to exist in the future; that is not. That means we shall exist. Na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve... all of us. All of us, you, not that "Because I am God, because you are My friend, God's friend, and all others..." No, everyone. This is knowledge. In the Katha Upanisad there is the verse nityo nityanam. Nityo nityanam. Nityanam means ever existing. Nitya means ever, always. So either Krsna or we, every one of us are ever-existing, because we are part and parcel of Krsna. Therefore, if Krsna is ever-existing, so we are also ever-existing. A particle of gold is gold, qualitatively. The value of gold mine and the gold earring may be different. Gold earring may be, say, hundred dollars, but a gold mine, millions of dollars. But both of them are gold, not that it is iron. Therefore, less value, no.

Krsna is the Supreme Spirit Person. He is all-pervading. Everywhere He is present. He is so expansive. We are simply... We are also all-pervading, but within this body. That's all. Krsna is all-pervading means throughout the whole creation, Krsna all-pervading. And we are also all-pervading only in this body. You are all-pervading within your body; I know the pains and pleasures of my body; you know the pains and pleasures of your body. So all-pervading means within this body. If I pinch anywhere, I'll feel pain, you'll not feel pain. Therefore, you are not all-pervading, I am not all-pervading. But Krsna is all-pervading. When I feel pain, Krsna knows it. Vedaham samatitani. "I know everything." That is Krsna. Try to understand distinction between Krsna and us. He's all-pervading, but He's nitya, ever-existing. We are also ever-existing. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). We have got knowledge, Krsna has got knowledge. But we have got limited knowledge. Krsna has got unlimited knowledge. That is the difference. Krsna is also cognizant. He's also acknowledged. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam.

Then where is the difference between Krsna and us? Yes, there is difference. What is that? That Krsna, singular number, nityo nityanam...nityanam, this is plural number. Cetanas cetananam. Cetananam, this is plural number. So there is one person, singular number. Others, they are plural number, we jivas. Anantyaya kalpate. Jivas, that is described, the dimension of the jiva. I have several times explained, kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. First of all, divide the tip of the hair into hundred parts. Then take one of the parts, one hundredth part, again divide into hundred parts. That small, less than atom, that is the magnitude of the jiva. And they are anantyaya kalpate. There is no limit. There is no limit how many living entities are there. If you search out, after passing stool, if you search out stool, you'll find millions of living entities, germs. Even from the hole of your room, there is small hole, and there are ants, hundreds and thousands will come out. So similarly, within the hole, within the earth, within the air, within the fire even, there are germs, worms in the fire. These rascals, they do not know. They simply think... Because nitya, nitya means ever-existing. So in the fire the living entities does not die. They sterilize. "Now it is sterilized." That is all nonsense. Sterilized means the body is killed, but not this... There is abortion. The body is killed. Contraception... The body is killed. But the soul, he's not killed. If you make some inconvenience to the soul, who has taken shelter in the womb, and you kill the body, then he'll have to search out another body. This is going on. Just see how the rascal civilization is going on. They're thinking they're killing. This way killed, that way killed. No. You, it is sinful because you create inconvenience to that particular soul. He was taking shelter, karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. By his karma he was given shelter to develop a body, and if you kill that body, that means you go against the order of the Supreme. Daiva-netrena, suppose you are destined to occupy some room, and somebody does not allow you to enter that room, is it not criminal? It is criminal, unlawful detention, unlawful... It is unlawful, even in the state. Similarly, a living entity is developing one body, and if you kill that, you become immediately criminal, punishable. And the living entity who is checked to develop the body, he's put into inconvenience, he's also sinful. He's also sinful. Therefore it may be simply he's wandering from one womb to another, one womb to another. Because he committed that sinful activity abortion. Now the man who causes his abortion, he also being punished, that "You'll never see the light of this world. You'll simply have to live one womb to another, one womb to another. Go on." So nature's punishment is like that. But these foolish people they do not know.

Nityo nityanam. So every living entity is nitya. As Krsna is nitya. He is singular number we are plural number. That is the difference. We are many; Krsna is one. There cannot be many Krsnas. But there are many living entities. So what is the difference between the singular number? That is also stated here: eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. This one singular number is supplying all the necessities of this plural number. Is it not fact? We are very much disturbed over population. That is all nonsense. Krsna is quite able, if there is overpopulation... There cannot be overpopulation, because there are already ananta living entities, what to speaking of overpopulation? It is already there, you cannot count. There is no question of... There are already overpopulation. And they can be provided by Krsna. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. Krsna is not limited; He is also unlimited. He can provide unlimited living entities. There is no scarcity of food. So this theory that overpopulation is nonsense. It is also nonsense. There cannot be overpopulation. But there is restriction, by nature. Nature will restrict production of food if there are demons. Nature will not provide the demons. You'll find in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Fourth Canto, nature is quite prepared to supply all the foods, but as soon as there are number of demons, because the whole plan is to correct. Just like the criminals are sent to the prison house for being corrected so that they may not again commit criminals. That is the purpose of... Similarly, we are all criminals who are in this material world. The purpose is to be corrected. We wanted to imitate Krsna, to become Krsna, and therefore we violated the orders of Krsna, and that criminality means material life.

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare
nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
(Prema-vivarta)

This is maya, this material world, maya. This body is false, maya. So we have to accept this body because we wanted to enjoy. So enjoy, you enjoy with this body, particular body. Either human's body, or dog's body, or cat's body, or demigod's body, you get as you desire. You get a material body and enjoy. This is material life.

So Krsna also, although in the material life, Krsna is providing all necessities of life. Duly, there is seasonal changes. You get seasonal fruits, flowers, grains, and all necessities. You'll be still given chance, especially to the human being, that you get all supplies, necessities. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. All necessities, But again you revive your consciousness, Krsna consciousness. That is the plan. But if you do not revive your Krsna consciousness, if you simply enjoy the senses, then there will be restriction of supply. This is the law. That is the restriction of supply. Therefore, there will be no rain. And if there is no rain, what factory will do, you rascal? You can manufacture scissors and knives and buckets of plastic, but you cannot prepare rice and wheat. That is not possible, sir. That will depend on rain. So immediately rains will be restricted. Now you all chew all these kankar (?). What is this kankar? These stone particles?

Devotee: Pebbles?

Prabhupada: What are called these? In Hindi, it is called kankar, Indian.

Revatinandana: Pebbles?

Prabhupada: Pebbles, big. Small. Sand, sand. Yes. So you can eat that. When there is no rain... That is also eatable. The peacocks, they eat. The pigeons, they eat. Yes, the, they can eat. You have seen? They're eating. So everything is there eatable. So there is no question of overpopulation. Overpopulation is already there, anantyaya kalpate. They why do you call overpopulation? When there is already fire, why do you say there will be fire? It is already there. So, but, the restriction, eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That eka, that eka, Krsna, He orders. He does not order actually. Just like, not every time the police has to be ordered by the superior authority to punish the criminal. They know how to punish. So the nature knows how to punish these criminals. Therefore, the scientists are finding now shortage of petrol, shortage of this, shortage... What to do? What to do? This is the position. Otherwise, there is no question of overpopulation. The supply is restricted. That is the problem. Eko yo bahunam. Because He supplies all the necessities, the supply will be restricted. As we become more and more sinful and without Krsna consciousness, they will be put into difficulties, they will be dying within the womb, they will be killed, within the womb, there will be war, there will be pestilence, there will be famine, there will be earthquake. In so many ways, we have to die. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. Again, take birth, this business will go on. And ultimately, when the whole universe is annihilated, then again we take shelter in the body of Maha-Visnu and live for, in that way, without any body, for many millions of years. Again, there is creation, and then again given chance. "All right, take another chance. Be Krsna conscious."

So this is material creation. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. As we have got this body, we have got the chance, not to become Krsna conscious, and if we miss, then I do not know where I am going next life. But I am not going to die, that's a fact. That will be explained in the next verse. I am not going to die. So we existed in the past, we are now existing at present, and we shall continue to exist in the future. This is the position. But how we shall exist? What kind of body, either demigod's body or dog's body or tree's body or fish's body, that will depend on my work. Or we go back to home, back to Godhead, Krsna like... We get the spiritual body like Krsna. Everything is possible.

So it is our business to see what kind of body we shall get next life. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Actually, if we become Krsna conscious, then after giving up this body, we are no more going to accept any material body. Because spiritual body is already there. That is eternal. The spirit soul, the spiritual body, that is never vanquished. It was existing in the past, it is existing now, and it will continue to exist in the future. Because people may say, "How is that? How odd thing Krsna is speaking, that na tv evaham jatu nasam na tvam neme janadhipah." Because actually, we died. Maybe we have taken birth again, but everyone dies. How that, that we do not die?" No. It is not the body, but Krsna is speaking about the soul. Soul is ever-existing. It existed in the past, it is existing now, and it will exist. Maybe, different type of body, that is Krsna's instruction. Another thing is that the Mayavadi philosophers say that we are one. There is no "you" and "me." Everything one. So, then Krsna is defective. If Krsna says, "You, Me, all others," so it is not one. It is not homogeneous. We are all individuals. "You are individual, I am individual, and all the kings and soldiers, they are all individuals." So the Mayavadi theory that after liberation everyone becomes one, one lump sum... What is called? Homogeneous spirit. No. Then Krsna is false. The Mayavadi theory accepted, that we become one lump sum, then Krsna's theory... Not theory, Krsna's actual knowledge. Then it becomes false. And if Krsna speaks false, something defective, then where is the use of reading Bhagavad-gita? Why should we read Bhagavad-gita which is spoken by a person who is defective? No. That's not... What Krsna is speaking, that is fact. Otherwise, why Bhagavad-gita is given so importance? So, so Mayavadi philosophers, they try to interpret in a different way, " ‘I' means this, ‘you' means that," some... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- London, August 18, 1973

"The Minister Of Defence Has"

76/12/12 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.12



Prabhupada:

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

Krsna says that na tu eva aham na tvam na ime janadhipah: "Either I or you or all these people who have assembled here in this battlefield, janadhipah, kings..." In the battlefield, janadhipah, they are not ordinary men. Now in the battlefield the poor mercenaries, they go to give their life, whereas the janadhipah, the leaders of the people, they sit down very comfortably. They do not go to the battlefield. They simply give order in writing, and the poor mercenaries, paid soldiers, they are paid for giving their life. Money is so sweet that one is prepared to give his life for money. Such men are sent to the war field. And the janadhipah, they are after also money, but they carefully avoid the battlefield. Minister of Defense, perhaps he has never seen a battlefield, Minister of Defense. Formerly it was not like that. When there was fight, because they are ksatriyas... Ksatriyas, they will never go back from fighting. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. That is the symptom of ksatriya. When there is fight, they will come forward first. Sauryam tejo... Viryam yuddhe capy apalayanam isvara-bhavas ca danam ca. Ksatriyas means they are very powerful, strong, and when there is fight, a ksatriya, if he is challenged by somebody that "I want to fight with you," he cannot deny. "Yes. What kind of fight you want, bows, arrows, or club, or sword?" Any way they will fight. And fight means until one is dead, the fight will go on. That is fight.

When Krsna and Arjuna and Bhima went to Jarasandha... Jarasandha was very powerful king. So before Maharaja Yudhisthira's becoming the emperor, it was the system that all the other kings within this world, they must submit, either submit or fight. So Krsna and Arjuna and Bhima went to Jarasandha. He was very charitable to the brahmanas, and these three persons went there, dressing themselves as poor brahmanas. So in the assembly they begged from Jarasandha, "Sir, we have come to beg from you for fight." Krsna, to save the other soldiers, He advised that "Let us fight with Jarasandha alone. Why he should unnecessarily bring so many soldiers and we have to also? Why these poor soldiers will give life? Better go, let us individually fight." So Jarasandha could understand that "They are ksatriyas. They have come in the dress of a brahmana to beg," because ksatriya cannot beg. So he accepted, "Yes." Then he selected Bhima to fight with him. He rejected Arjuna and Krsna also, that "You are not fit for fighting with me." So there was fighting for twenty-eight days. Fighting was going on from morning to evening. And at night they were friends. Bhima, Arjuna, and Krsna was the guest, and he received them as guests. They were eating together, talking together. In the morning again fighting. This is ksatriya. It is sport, sporting, but that sporting was meant for... Until one dies, the fighting will go on.

So yuddhe capy apalayanam. This is the qualification of ksatriya. So here it is said, Krsna... Krsna is chariot driver of Arjuna. So He says, janadhipah. There were many kings. Different parts of the world, they joined. Janadhipah, the leaders, when there is fight the leaders must come forward. And as soon as the leaders are killed, then it is victory, not by killing the soldiers or common men by atomic bomb. No. That was not fighting. So Krsna says, na tu eva aham. Krsna is individual person. God is person also. Vetti. The one who does not know what is God, they think impersonally, but God is person. Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He appeared upon this earth as person, as the son of Vasudeva. He acted as person. The original God is person, not imperson. Imperson is a feature. Just like the sunshine. This is an imperson, but the sunshine is coming from the sun globe. That is local place, and within the sun globe there is sun god. He's person. He's not imperson. Similarly, the impersonal feature, brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11], Absolute Truth... The imperson is a feature of God, anga-jyoti. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. It is the bodily rays, impersonal Brahman. But God is person. Here He said that na tu eva aham. Aham means "I am person," jatu, "at any time," nasam, "we are not annihilated." Na tu, na tvam: "You are also not annihilated." Because Arjuna is jiva, and Krsna is God, so both of them are existing, part and parcel. Just like this sunshine.

What is the sunshine? It is very small atomic particles of shining material. This is sunshine, combined together. Similarly, we are also a small particle of the rays, bodily rays of God. We are living entities, very minute particle. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah [Bg. 15.7]. So we are also individual, and God is also individual person. "And all the kings, all the soldiers assembled, they are also individual." So this individuality is never lost. Krsna says that "At present we are individuals, and in the past we are individuals." Then one may say, "In the future we may become one, amalgamated," as the Mayavadi philosopher says that as soon as we become liberated, we become one with the Absolute. No, that is not fact. Here it is said, na ca eva na bhavisyamah: "It is not that in future we shall not remain individual. We shall remain individual." Na bhavisyamah na. Two negatives makes one positive. That means "In the future also we shall exist as individual." Na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve, "all of us." "All" means Krsna says, "I, you, and all the other peoples, kings, and soldiers, we shall remain as individual." Then where is oneness? This Mayavadi theory that after liberation we shall all become one with God, that is not mentioned here. This is bogus theory. Real, that we remain individual. So long we are not in a position to act means so long... Just like ghost. Ghost is also individual. But because the ghost does not get this material body they are invisible. They create disturbance for want of this body. Those who have got experience of ghost in some house, the ghost is there, he is individual soul, but because he hasn't got this material covering, that is a punishment. For the most sinful person, that is a punishment, that he does not get this body, although he wants this body, because for enjoyment we want this body. Body is the combination of senses, instrument. If I want to touch you I require hand, and through hand I'll feel the pleasure of touching you. So the ghost wants to touch, but he hasn't got the instrument. That is ghost. But there are ghost. It is not fictitious. It is a fact. Ghost means without this material body.

So so long we are materially contaminated, we require this material body for enjoying senses. And the spiritual world, we get our spiritual body developed. So there is no question of becoming ghost or... Individual, there is. The person is always existing. That is the purport of this verse. Na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve vayam atah param. Atah param, "after this," means after this body is ended the individuality continues; simply we change our body. This is the version, and it is explained in the next verse, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. We are individual always, but we are changing this body from one type of body to another body according to our karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha-upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. By superior examination we get a body, karmana. So at the time of death it is decided what kind of body you are going to have next. That is decided by superior authority. You cannot dictate that "Give me this body," or "I don't want this body. I want a body..." No. That is not in your hand. You can do, you are given freedom. In the human form of life you are given freedom to act although there is direction that "You act like this." But if you don't like, you can act. Yathecchasi tatha kuru. You can act, but you become implicated with your karma because you have to act according to the modes of nature.

The modes of nature are three: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So if you act in sattva-guna, then you will be promoted to the higher planetary system. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah [Bg. 14.18]. If you act in the rajo-guna, then madhye tisthanti rajasah. And if you act in tamo-guna, then jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasah. Jaghanya. Tamasah means very abominable activities. The other day I was speaking. I saw one gentleman, Indian gentleman. He was eating the intestines of hog in the airplane. That is very palatable, they say. Tamo-guna, most tamo-guna. Hog, the stool-eater, and its intestine, that is cooked, and he's eating. How much tamo-guna. Jaghanya. Jaghanya guna-vrtti, very abominable. So next life he is going to be a hog. This is going on. We are in this material nature. Purusah prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan [Bg. 13.22]. We are in this material world according to our association with different modes of nature. We are making one type of mentality, and at the time of death, that mental position is responsible for carrying me in a different type of body. In this way we are changing body one after another.

So we are spirit soul. This is the chance of rectifying or purifying our existence. If we like, we can purify our existence in this human form of life. This Krsna consciousness movement means to purify the existence, and after death, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If you become perfect in Krsna consciousness, means you understand Krsna... Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding and acting accordingly, you can purify your existence, and next life means after giving up this body... This body we have to give up. But those who are not purifying their existence, they will accept another material body. And those who have purified the existence, they will go back home, back to Godhead. Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- Hyderabad, December 12, 1976

"The Minister Of Defence Has"

76/12/12 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.12



Prabhupada:

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

Krsna says that na tu eva aham na tvam na ime janadhipah: "Either I or you or all these people who have assembled here in this battlefield, janadhipah, kings..." In the battlefield, janadhipah, they are not ordinary men. Now in the battlefield the poor mercenaries, they go to give their life, whereas the janadhipah, the leaders of the people, they sit down very comfortably. They do not go to the battlefield. They simply give order in writing, and the poor mercenaries, paid soldiers, they are paid for giving their life. Money is so sweet that one is prepared to give his life for money. Such men are sent to the war field. And the janadhipah, they are after also money, but they carefully avoid the battlefield. Minister of Defense, perhaps he has never seen a battlefield, Minister of Defense. Formerly it was not like that. When there was fight, because they are ksatriyas... Ksatriyas, they will never go back from fighting. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. That is the symptom of ksatriya. When there is fight, they will come forward first. Sauryam tejo... Viryam yuddhe capy apalayanam isvara-bhavas ca danam ca. Ksatriyas means they are very powerful, strong, and when there is fight, a ksatriya, if he is challenged by somebody that "I want to fight with you," he cannot deny. "Yes. What kind of fight you want, bows, arrows, or club, or sword?" Any way they will fight. And fight means until one is dead, the fight will go on. That is fight.

When Krsna and Arjuna and Bhima went to Jarasandha... Jarasandha was very powerful king. So before Maharaja Yudhisthira's becoming the emperor, it was the system that all the other kings within this world, they must submit, either submit or fight. So Krsna and Arjuna and Bhima went to Jarasandha. He was very charitable to the brahmanas, and these three persons went there, dressing themselves as poor brahmanas. So in the assembly they begged from Jarasandha, "Sir, we have come to beg from you for fight." Krsna, to save the other soldiers, He advised that "Let us fight with Jarasandha alone. Why he should unnecessarily bring so many soldiers and we have to also? Why these poor soldiers will give life? Better go, let us individually fight." So Jarasandha could understand that "They are ksatriyas. They have come in the dress of a brahmana to beg," because ksatriya cannot beg. So he accepted, "Yes." Then he selected Bhima to fight with him. He rejected Arjuna and Krsna also, that "You are not fit for fighting with me." So there was fighting for twenty-eight days. Fighting was going on from morning to evening. And at night they were friends. Bhima, Arjuna, and Krsna was the guest, and he received them as guests. They were eating together, talking together. In the morning again fighting. This is ksatriya. It is sport, sporting, but that sporting was meant for... Until one dies, the fighting will go on.

So yuddhe capy apalayanam. This is the qualification of ksatriya. So here it is said, Krsna... Krsna is chariot driver of Arjuna. So He says, janadhipah. There were many kings. Different parts of the world, they joined. Janadhipah, the leaders, when there is fight the leaders must come forward. And as soon as the leaders are killed, then it is victory, not by killing the soldiers or common men by atomic bomb. No. That was not fighting. So Krsna says, na tu eva aham. Krsna is individual person. God is person also. Vetti. The one who does not know what is God, they think impersonally, but God is person. Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He appeared upon this earth as person, as the son of Vasudeva. He acted as person. The original God is person, not imperson. Imperson is a feature. Just like the sunshine. This is an imperson, but the sunshine is coming from the sun globe. That is local place, and within the sun globe there is sun god. He's person. He's not imperson. Similarly, the impersonal feature, brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11], Absolute Truth... The imperson is a feature of God, anga-jyoti. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti [Bs. 5.40]. It is the bodily rays, impersonal Brahman. But God is person. Here He said that na tu eva aham. Aham means "I am person," jatu, "at any time," nasam, "we are not annihilated." Na tu, na tvam: "You are also not annihilated." Because Arjuna is jiva, and Krsna is God, so both of them are existing, part and parcel. Just like this sunshine.

What is the sunshine? It is very small atomic particles of shining material. This is sunshine, combined together. Similarly, we are also a small particle of the rays, bodily rays of God. We are living entities, very minute particle. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah [Bg. 15.7]. So we are also individual, and God is also individual person. "And all the kings, all the soldiers assembled, they are also individual." So this individuality is never lost. Krsna says that "At present we are individuals, and in the past we are individuals." Then one may say, "In the future we may become one, amalgamated," as the Mayavadi philosopher says that as soon as we become liberated, we become one with the Absolute. No, that is not fact. Here it is said, na ca eva na bhavisyamah: "It is not that in future we shall not remain individual. We shall remain individual." Na bhavisyamah na. Two negatives makes one positive. That means "In the future also we shall exist as individual." Na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve, "all of us." "All" means Krsna says, "I, you, and all the other peoples, kings, and soldiers, we shall remain as individual." Then where is oneness? This Mayavadi theory that after liberation we shall all become one with God, that is not mentioned here. This is bogus theory. Real, that we remain individual. So long we are not in a position to act means so long... Just like ghost. Ghost is also individual. But because the ghost does not get this material body they are invisible. They create disturbance for want of this body. Those who have got experience of ghost in some house, the ghost is there, he is individual soul, but because he hasn't got this material covering, that is a punishment. For the most sinful person, that is a punishment, that he does not get this body, although he wants this body, because for enjoyment we want this body. Body is the combination of senses, instrument. If I want to touch you I require hand, and through hand I'll feel the pleasure of touching you. So the ghost wants to touch, but he hasn't got the instrument. That is ghost. But there are ghost. It is not fictitious. It is a fact. Ghost means without this material body.

So so long we are materially contaminated, we require this material body for enjoying senses. And the spiritual world, we get our spiritual body developed. So there is no question of becoming ghost or... Individual, there is. The person is always existing. That is the purport of this verse. Na caiva na bhavisyamah sarve vayam atah param. Atah param, "after this," means after this body is ended the individuality continues; simply we change our body. This is the version, and it is explained in the next verse, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. We are individual always, but we are changing this body from one type of body to another body according to our karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha-upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. By superior examination we get a body, karmana. So at the time of death it is decided what kind of body you are going to have next. That is decided by superior authority. You cannot dictate that "Give me this body," or "I don't want this body. I want a body..." No. That is not in your hand. You can do, you are given freedom. In the human form of life you are given freedom to act although there is direction that "You act like this." But if you don't like, you can act. Yathecchasi tatha kuru. You can act, but you become implicated with your karma because you have to act according to the modes of nature.

The modes of nature are three: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So if you act in sattva-guna, then you will be promoted to the higher planetary system. Urdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthah [Bg. 14.18]. If you act in the rajo-guna, then madhye tisthanti rajasah. And if you act in tamo-guna, then jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasah. Jaghanya. Tamasah means very abominable activities. The other day I was speaking. I saw one gentleman, Indian gentleman. He was eating the intestines of hog in the airplane. That is very palatable, they say. Tamo-guna, most tamo-guna. Hog, the stool-eater, and its intestine, that is cooked, and he's eating. How much tamo-guna. Jaghanya. Jaghanya guna-vrtti, very abominable. So next life he is going to be a hog. This is going on. We are in this material nature. Purusah prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan [Bg. 13.22]. We are in this material world according to our association with different modes of nature. We are making one type of mentality, and at the time of death, that mental position is responsible for carrying me in a different type of body. In this way we are changing body one after another.

So we are spirit soul. This is the chance of rectifying or purifying our existence. If we like, we can purify our existence in this human form of life. This Krsna consciousness movement means to purify the existence, and after death, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. If you become perfect in Krsna consciousness, means you understand Krsna... Janma karma ca me divyam yo janati [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by understanding and acting accordingly, you can purify your existence, and next life means after giving up this body... This body we have to give up. But those who are not purifying their existence, they will accept another material body. And those who have purified the existence, they will go back home, back to Godhead. Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- Hyderabad, December 12, 1976

"Meaning of Dhira"

"Meaning of Dhira"

72/11/17 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


Prabhupada:

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
[Bg. 2.12]

Krsna is giving more enlightenment on the living entity, soul. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Now, Krsna says that "In the past I existed. So also you. And so also all these soldiers and the kings who have assembled in this fighting. They existed in the past. For the present, there is no question of asking... We are existing. And in the future also, it is not that we shall not exist." That means, "We shall exist." So what is "I," "you," and "others"? I am individual person. You are individual person, and all others, they're also, each and every one of them, individual persons. So in the past we were all individuals; at present we are all individuals; and in the future also, we shall remain individuals. So where there is question of merging, become one? Here Krsna says that "In the past we are individual persons, in the present we are all individual persons, and in future also, we shall remain individuals."

So the Mayavadi theory that impersonal, how it stands? Neither God is impersonal, nor the living entities are impersonal. Every one of us -- person. The difference between the Supreme Person and our personality is that He is all-powerful; we are limited. Our power is limited. Everything, ours, limited. Anu, vibhu. He is great; we are small. He is infinite; we are infinitesimal, very small. Otherwise, in all other qualities, we are one. There is no difference. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. In eternity, in blissfulness, and in knowledge. Everything is there. But Krsna's knowledge and our knowledge, different. Just like Krsna said, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this yoga system, Bhagavad-gita, long, long ago to the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "And the sun-god explained it to his son, Manu; and Manu again, in his turn, he explained to his son, Iksvaku. In this way, this knowledge of Bhagavad-gita is coming by the disciplic succession." So Krsna says, "I spoke." So it is millions and millions, at least, four hundred thousand millions of times, millions of years ago, according to the calculation of Manu. So Krsna said million; and millions of years ago this Bhagavad-gita, He remembers. But Arjuna inquired from Him that "How can I believe that You spoke this Bhagavad-gita millions of millions years ago to sun-god, because we are contemporary?" Krsna and Arjuna, they're of, practically of the same age.

So Arjuna was calculating as a human being about Krsna. That was his mistake. That was his not mistake. That was his inquiry to clear the mistake of our. We mistake Krsna as one of us. Because Krsna comes down as human being, we, due to our lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge, we think Krsna is as good as we are. But actually it is not. Krsna is God. We are ordinary living entities. His knowledge, His power of remembrance, His power of knowing everything perfectly is different from our knowing. But unfortunately we think, "God may be little greater than me." That is that Dr. Frog philosophy. We have explained several times. Kupa-manduka-nyaya. The frog within the well, he is calculating the dimension of Pacific Ocean. So by this dog, frog philosophical way, we can, we cannot understand what is God. We must receive the knowledge from God Himself, or from a person who knows God. Otherwise, there is no possibility. Now, according to maya..., Mayavada philosophy, they say that there is no duality. It is a kind of illusion that we see difference between God and ourself. That is maya. Then Krsna is not advocating herewith about the impersonal feature of the Lord. He says, ah, He represents... He is God himself. He says "I, I was existing as I am existing now, and in future also, I shall exist like this." So He was speaking as individual person. So in the past He says that "I was individual person." And in the present He's individual person. So why these Mayavadi philosophy, philosophers, do not understand this direct version from the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Because asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15]. The Mayavadi philosophers, they do not accept the supremacy of the Personality of Godhead. They think God is as good as they are. Therefore they introduce themselves as Narayana. But according to Vaisnava philosophy, Narayana cannot be equal to any one of us. What speak of us, Narayana cannot be equally estimated even with great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva. That is... The Vaisnava Purana says, yas tu narayanam devam brahma-rudradi-daivataih, samatvenaiva vikseta sa pasandi bhavad dhruvam: [Cc. Madhya 18.116] "Anyone who calculates Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, equal with such demigods, not, what to speak of ordinary human beings, even big, big demigods like Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, he immediately becomes a pasandi, atheist." So if... The Mayavadi philosophy, they put forward this argument that "Because we are now in maya, we are thinking that we are different from God." But Krsna is making thus such differentiation that... He's making, He's saying, "You and I and all these." So does it mean that Krsna is also covered by maya or illusion? Because He is very clearly differentiating between Him and the living entities, all individuals. So if the Mayavadi philosopher is right that this differentiation is due to our illusion, then we have to accept Krsna is also in illusion. Because He's making differentiation. So if Krsna is in illusion, then what is the use of taking His version? Because our proposition is that we have to take knowledge from the perfect person. So if Krsna is in illusion, then how He can become perfect person, and the knowledge delivered by Him is perfect? No. Krsna is not illusioned. We are in illusion. Krsna is not in illusion. Krsna cannot be in illusion.

(reads from purport:) "In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities..." The Supreme Personality of Godhead... Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). There is eka and bahu. The bahu, they are also nitya and cetana. That means we living entities, we are also cetana and eternal. And Krsna is also eternal and cetana. So so far the living symptoms and the eternity is concerned, both the living entities and God, Krsna, they are one. But the difference is that eko bahunam vidadhati kaman, that one, that chief one, although He's eternal and living force as we are, but He is the chief. He maintains all others. That is the version. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman, tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhiras tesam santih sasvati netaresam. This is the version from Kathopanisad. Nityo nityanam. He's the supreme eternal amongst all the other eternals. Cetanas cetananam. He's the supreme living force amongst all other living forces. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That one, singular number, eka, He is providing, maintaining, all other living entities. Tam atma-stham. He is also in everyone's heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhirah. Anyone who can perceive His presence, dhira, very highly learned or very gentle, dhira... Dhira means who is not disturbed. He's called dhira. And there are others who are called adhira. Adhira means those who are disturbed. So those who are in the material world, they are always disturbed. And those who are on the spiritual platform, they are dhira. Dhiradhira. About the Gosvamis it is said:

krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi
dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pujitau
sri-caitanya-krpa-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bharavahantarakau
vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

So one who is in the transcendental position, he's dhira. One poet, poet Kalidasa, he has described, dhira means: "Even in the presence of provocation, one who is not disturbed, he's called dhira." He has described about Lord Siva. When Lord Siva was being worshiped by Parvati, Lord Siva was naked and Parvati was worshiping the siva-linga, but he did not become agitated. Therefore Kalidasa has described: dhira. Dhira. One who is not... The first disturbance is sexual disturbance. So anyone, although he is completely potent with all the potencies, but still, he is not disturbed with sex impulses, he's called dhira. Actually, that is called brahmacari. Brahmacari is not he is impotent. He can marry. He can beget children. But self-restrained. He's so self-restrained, that he's not disturbed. Unless he desires that "I shall have sex and for begetting children," he's not disturbed. That is called dhira. Not by seeing any woman or man, one is disturbed. He's adhira. She's adhira. So dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau... The Gosvamis, they were equally respectable for the dhiras and the adhiras. So a, a spiritual master, a gosvami, should be equally merciful both for the dhiras and the adhiras. Otherwise, he cannot become a preacher. Preacher has to meet so many fallen souls. So he, if he becomes disturbed, then he cannot preach. Therefore dhira. This word is here: anupasyanti, tam atma-stham ye anupasyanti dhira. He's called dhira. Without being dhira, you cannot perceive the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead within your heart, because the God is there in Paramatma feature. But you have to become dhira, without being disturbed. Then you can understand: "Here is Krsna within my heart."

premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.38]

This dhira can be possible when we develop love for Krsna. Then we become dhira. Otherwise, it is not possible. Otherwise we shall be disturbed.

Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. And how we can see God? Not with these eyes. These eyes, but there must be some ointment. That is called prema. Just like a mother sees his child, although not very beautiful, very beautiful. Because he has, she has got love for the child. Others, they are seeing the child not very beautiful. The mother, out of ecstatic love, sees the child very beautiful. So similarly, unless we have developed our love for Krsna, we cannot see the Supreme Personality of Godhead within our heart, not only within our heart, everywhere.

premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.38]

(reads purport) "The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge." This is poor fund of knowledge that "God and I, we one. Now, because we are illusioned, we are thinking that God is different from me, but when the illusion is over, then I and God become one." This is Mayavadi theory, monism. But actually this is not clear knowledge. God is..., God is always distinct from me. He's the Supreme. It is not that we are equal to God. We are equal to God in quality, not in quantity. Therefore those who are thinking that they are equal to God in every respect, they are illusioned. Maya, mayaya apahrta-jnanah. They have been called, they have been designated by Krsna as mayaya apahrta-jnanah. Although they appear to be very learned scholars, but the essence of the knowledge is taken away by maya. Therefore they say that God and ordinary human being is the same. Mayaya apahrta... Asura. This is called asura-bhava. Asura-bhava means not to accept the supremacy of the Lord but think Him as one with all individual souls. But that is not the fact. That is poor fund of knowledge. Actually, when one becomes advanced in knowledge, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. In due course of time, after many, many births, when he actually comes to the platform of knowledge, he can understand that "Vasudeva is great and I am small, I am insignificant." Therefore he surrenders. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. This is the sign of knowledge. When one surrenders to Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is to be understood that he has actually attained knowledge. Otherwise it is ignorance. To think of Krsna and ordinary person as equal is not knowledge; it is illusion.

So anyone who takes shelter of Krsna by the words of Krsna, believing Him... So... Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Krsna orders that "You surrender unto Me. You become My devotee. You always think of Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah [Bg. 9.34]. "You become My devotee." Mad-yaji. "You worship Me. You offer your obeisances unto Me." Persons who are in poor fund of knowledge, they think, "It is too much. Krsna is demanding too much. It is sophistry." No, no. That is not sophistry. That is the real position. Otherwise, without surrendering to Krsna, if you think yourself, that you are Krsna, that is in illusion, avisuddha-buddhayah, contaminated intelligence. Avisuddha-buddhayah. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32]. Because they cannot understand Krsna, so their knowledge is not perfect, or not purified. Knowledge perfect is there in every living entity, but it is contaminated by the contact of maya. So one who can understand the position of Krsna and himself, he's called mukta. Mukta means liberated. Mukti means to know perfectly what is our relationship with Krsna. That is called mukti. (pause)

The verse...

antavanta ime deha
nityasyoktah saririnah
anasino 'prameyasya
tasmad yudhyasva bharata
[Bg. 2.18]

Yuddha, fighting, Arjuna was ksatriya. It is his duty. Because here, in this material world, violence is also required. Violence. Because everyone is competitor, everyone is trying to become the Supreme, so there will be violence. Just like in your state, at the present moment, there is violence because one party is trying to become Supreme than the other. That is going on everywhere, all over the world, the struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to become supreme than the other. So there must be violence. So expecting that there will be violence, the ksatriya class required. Just like in the state, expecting that there will be violence, therefore the police department is maintained, the military department is maintained. So you cannot avoid violence from this material world. It is useless proposal. Our Mahatma Gandhi tried to stop violence. He started the nonviolence movement, but factually he had to die by violence. So ksatriya, they are trained up violent to become violent to stop violence. That is required. Therefore Krsna advises that "Don't try to become nonviolent because..." Tasmad yudhyasva bharata. "Don't think that by killing the body, your grandfather, or your nephews and your brother on the other side, they will be finished. No. They'll live. The body may be destroyed." Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. But actual soul, he'll transmigrate. According to Vedic philosophy, if a ksatriya dies in proper fighting, then he is immediately transferred to the heavenly planet, the heavenly planet. Because he sacrifices his body for right cause. Formerly, the fight was not a very trifle thing. After much consideration, then fighting or war was declared. Just like the fighting between the Kurus and the Pandavas; first of all, there was great endeavor to stop the fight. Krsna Himself became the messenger and was going from this party to another. Because Krsna... Both the parties were Krsna's family relatives. So He wanted to stop and mitigate the misunderstanding by mutual settlement. But it was not possible. The Duryodhana's party said that "We are not prepared to spare even a small piece of land which can hold the tip of the needle." Sucagra-bhumi. Then it was decided there must be fight. That fighting was meant for the ksatriyas. Formerly, there was no democracy. The so-called democracy. Democracy means that there was one king only; now there are hundreds of kings. One king and few ministers. Now one governor, one, I mean to say, three dozen secretaries, and three dozen... So many things... It is overburdened. The tax, tax is overburdened because there are so many officers. They have to be sumptuously paid. So tax is required. So in this age, Kali-yuga, by, I mean to say, finishing the monarchical system, people have accepted the democratic system, but it is not very much improvement. Because the state expenditure has very much increased and people are very much overburdened with taxes. So Krsna advises that tasmad yudhyasva. Tasmad yudhyasva bharata. "Don't think that your grandfather, or the other party, relatives, they'll be destroyed by fighting. It is not the fact, that, by destruction of the body, the soul is destroyed." Real purpose is... Bhagavad-gita. That we should understand that the soul is always existing, even... Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20].

ya enam vetti hantaram
yas cainam manyate hatam
ubhau tau na vijanito
nayam hanti na hanyate
[Bg. 2.19]

There is another example. Krsna says... Because the soul is immortal, eternal, so if somebody kills somebody, the body is destroyed, but the soul is not destroyed. So if one thinks that "I have killed him, he's finished," he's also foolish. And one who thinks that "If I have died in the fight, then I will be finished." No. Ubhau tau na vijanitah. Both of them are ignorant. Ubhau tau na vijanito nayam hanti na hanyate. The living soul is never killed, neither he can kill others. For duty's sake... Of course, when there is fight... That is called dharma-yuddha. Dharma-yuddha, by the order of the Supreme. Just like Arjuna was fighting by the order of the Supreme. That is dharma-yuddha. If there is no sanction by the dharma, there is sastra injunction, "In this case fighting should be there, in case, in this case, there should be no fighting..." So one who follows the principles of regulation in the Vedas, that is called dharma-yuddha. Even there is fight, there is religion, there is piety. Even by killing and being killed. Two ksatriyas are fighting. Either he kills or he is being killed, in both ways they are profited. That will be explained. Just like Arjuna was advised that "My dear Arjuna, why you are hesitating to fight? Both ways you'll be benefited. If you can kill your enemies, then you get the kingdom, you enjoy. And if you are killed, then you are promoted to the heavenly planets. So where is your loss? Where is your loss?" This is the instruction given. A ksatriya who is fighting for the real cause, as sanctioned by the dharma-sastras, when both ways he's profited. If he becomes victorious, he's profited, but if he's killed in the battle, he's also profited. Both ways.

ya enam vetti hantaram
yas cainam manyate hatam
ubhau tau na vijanito
nayam hanti na hanyate
[Bg. 2.19]

Then the next verse He clearly explains:

na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]

This soul... "Do not think that soul is born." No. As God is ever-existing, the soul is ever-existing. It is not... There is no question of birth. And when there is no question of birth, there is no question of death. Because we experience, anything, anybody, who has taken birth, he dies. Nobody will live here. So if the soul has no birth, there is no question of death. And as Krsna, God, God is eternal, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam Purana [Bs. 5.33]. Purana means old. Because Krsna is the original person, therefore He must be Purana, the oldest, older than Brahma. Because Brahma is given birth by Krsna. Therefore Krsna has been addressed in the Bhagavad-gita as prapitamaha [Bg. 11.39]. Brahma is called pitamaha, the grandfather, and prapitamaha means "the father of the grandfather." So Krsna has been addressed as prapitamaha, "father of Brahma." Therefore He's adi-purusa. Actually, within this creation, Lord Brahma is the original person, because he was firstborn. There was no other person before him. But he's given birth by Narayana, from the abdomen of Narayana in the lotus flower. Therefore He's the father of Brahma. Prapitamaha [Bg. 11.39]. So Krsna here says, because that Mayavadi philosophy's also nullified here. Because here it is said, na jayate, na jayate mriyate va kadacin nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah. Mayavada philosophy says that the living entity has become separated on account of illusion. Not becomes separated. He is... There is no separation. But it is illusion; he's thinking, "I am different from God." But Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah [Bg. 15.7]. That amsa, part and parcel of God, he's sanatana. Not that, being covered by illusion, he's thinking "I am separated." He's separated always, sanatana. That is the statement of the Vedas. Separated. Although separated, quality one, but that separation, that fragments of Krsna, that is sanatana. It is not that by maya we are fragmental separated; when we are liberated, we merge into the body or the effulgence of God. We are separated in..., perpetually. Although we are eternal, but we are perpetually... vibhinnamsa. In the Varaha Purana it is said, vibhinnamsa, "separated part and parcel." So we should understand very clearly that, although we are eternal, part and parcel, but we are separated. Separated in this sense that we are, everyone of us, are individual, not merge into the existence. Everything is existing. In the Bhagavad-gita, you'll find: mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu avasthitah [Bg. 9.4]. Everything is existing in Him, Krsna. But still, Krsna is not the living entity.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Indian: (Hindi?)

Prabhupada: Bhakti... If we chant Hare Krsna mantra, then we come to our perfection. At the present moment, we are illusioned. Just like every one of us thinking that "I am this body." Otherwise, why there is so much fighting? Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." This bodily concept of life is maya, illusion, or ignorance. So the whole process is to drive away the ignorance. Drive away. That is called jnana. We are in the ajnana.

ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana-salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah

Every one of us is covered by the darkness of ajnana. What is that ajnana? "I am this body." "I am Indian." "I am American." "I am Andhra," "I am Bengali." "I am this, I am that." So there is fighting, due to ajnana. So first of all we have to drive away this ajnana. Therefore Krsna is teaching Arjuna that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul." This is the first spiritual instruction by the authority to anyone, that "You are not this body." So by chanting Hare Krsna mantra... It is the medicine recommended in the sastra, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That dust of ignorance is moved. He can understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna. My duty is to serve Krsna." In this way, he becomes enlightened gradually.

Question: Lord Krsna has claimed in the past He was existing, in present, He exists, in future He will be. In what... [break]... form Krsna is not?

Prabhupada: Just like you have dressed now, covered yourself with some type of dress. So if you change your dress, does it mean that you are finished?

Indian: But He...

Prabhupada: Try to understand: You are now in my presence dressed in a certain type of covering. Now, if you change this covering, does it mean you are finished.

Indian: No.

Prabhupada: Similarly, this body, this material body, has been explained as dress. So if I change my dress... Now, suppose I am now human being, and I change my dress to become a demigod, or I change my dress to become a dog. It does not mean that I am finished. I have simply changed my dress, according to my karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. By your karma, you'll have a dress. After death, as it is explained in this verse, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20], the living soul is not destroyed after the destruction of this body. Therefore he remains, and his finer dress, subtle dress, is there -- mind, intelligence, and ego. So according to the composition of his mind, he develops another gross dress. This is the process. So you, spirit soul, you are always the same, although you are changing dress. Our problem is that we are perpetually changing dress, but our desire is to have a permanent life. That is spiritual education. You can have a permanent life, permanent dress, permanent knowledge, if you become free from this dress-changing problem. That is called mukti. The Krsna consciousness movement is to stop this business of dress changing. Yes?

Question: So do you mean to say that Krsna is also karma-bound?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Question: Do you mean to say that Krsna is also karma-bound?

Prabhupada: No, no.

Question: Just now you have quoted the example, sir, that as we changing our dresses, Krsna will also change that dress by changing from past to...

Prabhupada: What is, I have explained?

Indian: So just now you were complaining that as we change our dresses, Krsna will also be changing.

Prabhupada: Where, where I have said? I have never said.

Devotee: That man's original question is: "What form is Krsna in now?"

Indian: No. Excuse me. His question was: "Krsna was, will be and He is in what form?"

Prabhupada: Oh, his question was...?

Devotee: Yes. His question was that if Krsna says that "Never was there a time when you and I..." [break]

Prabhupada: That is not correct. Krsna... As we have got distinction between the body and the soul, Krsna has no such distinction. Krsna is completely soul. And if we think that Krsna is like us, that is forbidden. Avajananti mam mudhah, tanu, manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because Krsna comes before us just like a human being, if we think that "He's also like me," then we are ass. Krsna does not change His dress. Otherwise, Krsna could not say that "Millions and millions of years ago I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." Because..., because we change our dress, we forget what I was, what you were, in your past life. Because you have changed the dress... [break]

Question: What is the business of Krsna consciousness society?

Prabhupada: Always thinking of Krsna. As Krsna says. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These four principles. Always think of Krsna, become Krsna's devotee, worship Krsna and offer your respect, obeisances to Krsna. That's all. This is Krsna consciousness. They are doing that. Nothing more, nothing less. These four principles.

Question: Is Narayana... [break]

Prabhupada: (Hindi:) ...sastra sunye paregara, samanye paregara, vo sastra janta nai chela grantha paragara, kavi mana...(?) (Hindi)

Question: The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Question: The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupada: Yes...?

Question: So what is the form and what is the definition of soul, and how to know whether there is soul...?

Prabhupada: That is... that is... that is described. We are describing na jayate na mriyate. Soul is never born, soul never dies. Soul is eternal. Nityah sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Even after the destruction of this body, the soul is not destroyed. These, these are the education.

Indian: There is a test of knowing the thing. You are just describing the qualities of the soul. If you can say mango, mango is very sweet, color is like this. But it requires to taste the mango. So I want to realize the soul. What is the shortest way?

Prabhupada: There is mango. But you have no eyes to see it. That is the difference. Soul is there. Just like we have begun our instruction: dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. There is dehi. There is the soul within this body. Krsna says. So we have to accept Krsna's authority. You cannot see the soul. That does not mean there is no soul. Your, what is the value of your eyes? You cannot see so many things. Because you cannot see the soul, it does not mean there is no soul. We have to accept the authority.

Indian: Why can't I see?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: Why I can't...?

Prabhupada: Because your eyes are imperfect.

Indian: So what is the proof that there is soul?

Prabhupada: Because there is a proof. As soon as the soul is gone, you are dead body. That is the proof.

Indian: I should like that thing...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: I should see.

Prabhupada: But you must be qualified to know.

Indian: How?

Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that you must become... Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You must approach to a person who knows by surrender, not by challenge. You cannot know about soul and God by this challenging spirit. You have to become a submissive, submissive. You have to accept a spiritual master who knows. Then you'll know. It is not that in a meeting by challenging, you can know. No. That is not possible.

Indian: How to get that master who knows?

Prabhupada: That you have to search out. If you are fortunate, you'll get.

Indian (2): In Bhagavad-gita... [break]

Prabhupada: ... dvaita-advaita, that we have explained.

Indian: Dvaita-advaita, yes?

Prabhupada: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. Just like this finger is, is my finger. So it is part of this body. So you can, you can say, "This finger is also body." But, at the same time, the finger is not the body. Is it clear? You cannot say "This finger the whole body." But at the same time, you can say, "Yes, finger is body." If you say, "This is my body," there is no wrong because finger is also part of the body. But if you say that "The finger is body," that is also wrong. This is dvaita-advaita. It is simultaneously one and different. Similarly, the soul and the Supreme Lord, equal in quality. Krsna says, mamaivamsa. The small particle of gold is gold. That is advaita. You cannot say, because it is small particle of gold, you cannot say, "It is iron." It is gold. That is advaita. But the gold mine and the gold earring, there is difference. You cannot say the gold earring is as good as the gold mine. That is dvaita. so in this way, as so far our spiritual existence is concerned, we are one. But so far our energies are concerned, that is different. That is dvaita-advaita. You have no such big energy as God has. In that sense you are different. God can create millions of universe by His breathing. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs. 5.48]. You can create one small sputnik, and take credit. But God can create innumerable universes simply by breathing. So your energy, your power, is different from God's power. But in quality, you are one with God.

Indian: Then you must prove it is dvaita.

Prabhupada: Both advaita and dvaita. Both...

Indian: How? How? Prove, how?

Prabhupada: That, that is, that requires little brain. That requires little brain. Not dull brain. Very fertile brain requires. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- Hyderabad, November 17, 1972