"Follow... or Folly"

25 Dec 75, Sanand


Prabhupada: So if you have to translate, why not translate from English? That will be easier for me, and they will also understand. Tike? If he has to translate, then why not let me speak in English so that they will also understand?

Indian man: I will translate.

Prabhupada: So Bhagavan means the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absolute Truth is realized in three phases: brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Absolute Truth can be realized in the beginning as impersonal Brahman, which is the objective of the jnanis, and next, Paramatma, which is the objective of the yogis, and at last, the last word in the absolute understanding is person, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ultimate issue is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just like we understand that in the sun globe there is the Supreme Person or the surya-narayana, or the chief person within the sun planet. His name is also given in the Bhagavad-gita-Vivasvan. The Lord says in the Fourth Chapter, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I first of all explained this science, this yoga system of Bhagavad-gita, to Vivasvan, the sun-god." Vivasvan manave prahur manur iksvakave 'bravit. And Vivasvan, the sun-god, he explained to Manu, and Manu explained to his son. In this way, by the disciplic succession the knowledge has come down. So when we speak of jnana, knowledge, it must be learned from a person. So Bhagavan, the last word in the understanding of Absolute Truth, He says in this Bhagavad-gita.

So Vyasadeva specifically means here, bhagavan uvaca. He does not say krsna uvaca, because sometimes Krsna is misunderstood by the fools. So bhagavan uvaca, this word, means whatever He says, there is no defect or deficiencies. For ordinary person like us there are four defects: bhrama pramada vipralipsa kara-napatava. Vipralipsa, cheating. Vipralipsa, cheating. So in the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna or self-realized person, servants of Krsna, those who have understood Krsna, for them there are no deficiencies. They are perfect. For this reason Krsna gives the instruction,

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]

One who has actually seen or actually realized the truth, you have to take knowledge from there. So we have to approach such person. Otherwise, if we approach some speculator, we cannot get real knowledge. So those who are speculators, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they commit mistake that "God is like this," "God like that," "There is no God," "There is no form." All these nonsense things are proposed, because they are imperfect. Bhagavan therefore said, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritah [Bg. 9.11]. Because He comes for our benefit in the human form, the fools and rascals consider Him as ordinary person. If Bhagavan says, aham bija-pradah pita [Bg. 14.4], "I am the seed-giving father," so we, every one of us, we know that my father is person, his father is person, his father is person, and why the Supreme Person or the supreme father should become imperson? Why? And therefore we have to learn from Bhagavan, the Supreme Person, full knowledge. This Bhagavad-gita is therefore full knowledge from the full Personality of Godhead. We cannot change even one word in this Bhagavad-gita. That is folly.

So our this Krsna consciousness movement is following this principle. We don't manufacture any concocted things. We simply distribute the message given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And this is becoming effective practically. You can see practically these Europeans and Americans, Australians, all over the world, they did not know four or five years ago, or say ten years ago, since I have begun this movement, they did not know what is Krsna. Although Bhagavad-gita was being presented by so many swamis and yogis, not a single man became a devotee of Krsna. So our, this presentation, because it is pure, without any adulteration, it is acting very nicely. Even the Christian priests, they become surprised when they see that these boys, their boys -- they were Christians or Jews -- they becomes surprised that "These boys were never coming to the church. They were never interested in understanding what is God. Now, since this Krsna consciousness movement is there, how these boys have become so mad after God?" The only reason is that we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. We preach that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna says also in the Bhagavad-gita, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So this is being effective, that if we really want to understand Bhagavad-gita, we must understand as it is presented by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Our, this Krsna consciousness movement is the movement which was given to us by Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction is this. He says, amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So He is asking everyone, especially bharatiya,

bharata-bhumite manusya janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

So this Krsna consciousness movement is being conducted or was started by single-handed, myself. If all the Indian sages and saintly person, they take Bhagavad-gita As It Is and preach all over the world, there is great, great demand for it. Unfortunately, so many persons go there. One big swami, he said that "Krsna means black, and black means unknown." Of course, nobody cares for his speech. Krsna is going on, forward. Everyone is accepting Krsna. But this is the most unfortunate thing, that our men go there to deprecate Krsna. Therefore we should very carefully try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is presented by Krsna. Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. This should be preached, that Krsna is the supreme, ultimate. Aham saravsya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate. Even Brahman, Paramatma, has also come from Krsna. Krsna is ultimate. He says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. He is the supreme of all the demigods. There is no need of worshiping any other demigod. Krsna says, kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajanty anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Hrta-jnana. Hrta-jnana means who has lost his intelligence. How he has lost his intelligence? Because they get from these demigods some temporary benefit. Antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam [Bg. 7.23].

So our real problem is that we... Every one of us, we are the spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna. We are struggling for existence within this material world. So manah-sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7], struggle for existence. Therefore Krsna says that "Your real problem is janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]." We are eternal. We understand from Bhagavad-gita, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So if I am eternal, nityah sasvata, then why I am accepting death? This is real question. But foolishly we are thinking, "I am this body." Therefore we remain as an animal. So we should be interested to understand actually "What I am," aham brahmasmi. That is real solution of all problems. This is called knowledge. But sometimes we are misled by misleaders; therefore we still remain in darkness in spite of cultivating knowledge. But actually, when we cultivate knowledge under the guidance of real guru, then we can understand vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. This is confirmed in the Vedas, Brahma-samhita:

isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]

So spiritual knowledge means to become Krsna conscious. This is the sum and substance, to understand Krsna, what He is, not that concocting, manufacturing that "Krsna is this. Krsna is that." No. As Krsna says, as sastra says what is Krsna, you have to understand it like that. So sadhu sastra guru vakya. It is said that we have to accept knowledge through saintly person. Through sastra and guru we have to understand. So Krsna is accepted by all the sadhus and acaryas. Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu -- all of them accepted Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So acarya means one who has learned, taken knowledge from the sastra, authoritative sastra, Vedas. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is recommended, acaryopasanam. If you want real knowledge, then you must take knowledge from the acaryas or the acarya-parampara. Then there is knowledge. Otherwise it is ignorance.

So under the circumstances, whatever Krsna says, Bhagavan says... Sri-bhagavan uvaca, mayy asakta-manah partha. The real business is to increase your attachment for Krsna. This is your real business. How we can increase our attachment for Krsna, that is explained by Krsna. Mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. The asakti, attachment, it has to be done according to the system, adau sraddha. First thing is sraddha, little faith, that "Let us go to this Krsna consciousness movement, and let us hear what they say." This is called sraddha. Then, if you become interested, then sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Those who are actually devotees of Lord Krsna, you have to associate with them. And who is sadhu? Sadhu is described by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita:

api cet suduracaro
bhajate mam ananya-bhak
sadhur eva sa mantavyah...
[Bg. 9.30]

He is sadhu who is... So the fact is, sadhu means unalloyed devotee of Krsna. He is sadhu. Suddha-bhakta.

anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]

One who has no other desire than to serve Krsna favorably, he is sadhu.

So we are sending all these sadhus all over the world, these European and American sadhus, because they have taken to Krsna consciousness without any doubt. And it is becoming effective. Because we have got so many expansive centers all over the world, it is not possible for me to go everywhere. But these boys, because they have taken to Krsna consciousness very seriously, they are doing very nice. And it is not difficult for them, because we have given this English translation of this book. We have got at least eighty books of four hundred pages, and they are preaching very nicely. And by the grace of Krsna... You'll be surprised to understand that we are selling books, not less than one lakh of rupees per day. So the preaching is going on very nicely. We request all Indians to take part in this Krsna consciousness movement and be yourself happy, be yourself guru, and deliver all other persons who are in ignorance. And to become guru is not very difficult. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa
yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa
[Cc. Madhya 7.128]

You become guru. It is not very difficult. How? Now, because you have to simply repeat what Krsna has said. That's all. So Krsna says everything in the Bhagavad-gita. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These four things if you accept -- to think of Krsna always, to become devotee of Krsna, to offer obeisances to Krsna and to worship Krsna -- these four things if you do, you become Krsna conscious, a devotee of Krsna, and you can preach all over the world. It is not at all difficult. So if you become sincere, seriously Krsna conscious, then there will be no difficulty because Krsna says,

tesam satata-yuktanam
bhajatam priti-purvakam
buddhi-yogam dadami tam...
[Bg. 10.10]

If you constantly, twenty-four hours remain Krsna conscious, man-mana, then -- Krsna is there within your heart -- He will give you instruction, "Do like this." So Bhagavan is not far away from you. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna [Bg. 18.61]. He is staying within the core of your heart. But if you qualify yourself as devotee, He'll speak with you. But if you commit offenses, thinking Krsna as ordinary man, then Krsna will never give you instruction.

So our request is, this Krsna consciousness movement, that you study Bhagavad-gita. You don't require... Because Bhagavad-gita is the essence of all Vedic knowledge. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Vedas means if you are actually a student of Veda or Vedanta, Veda-Vedanta, then the ultimate goal is to understand Krsna. And if you cannot understand Krsna, however big Vedantist you may be, you remain a fool. This is the conclusion of Bhagavad-gita.

Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Lecture with Translator -- Sanand, December 25, 1975

His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada's Appearance Day, Lecture Atlanta, March 2, 1975

2 Mar 75 , Atlanta

Prabhupada: Today is the most auspicious day, 101 years ago, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he appeared on this day. So Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is gaura-sakti. Gaura-sakti means empowered, empowered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He wanted His mission to be broadcast... (aside:) What is that sound? ...all over the world. He desired:

prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama
sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

Prthivite, all over the world, as many towns and villages are there, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted that His mission will spread. This prediction was made by Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally five hundred years ago.

So perhaps my Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, attempted to fulfill the desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. And sometimes in the year 1918, he was brahmacari, and Bhaktivinoda Thakura, his material father, he wanted... Actually, he wanted, Bhaktivinoda Thakura... Of course, everyone wanted. But he wrote one small book, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Teachings and Precepts of Lord Caitanya, in 1896. And he presented that book to the McGill University in Canada. And he very much desired that the foreigners, especially Americans, would join this movement. That was his desire in 1896. And then, in 1918, my Guru Maharaja started with this mission one institution known as Gaudiya Math. Perhaps some of you know the name, Gaudiya Math. And he was trying to spread this message of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and by chance or by prediction, as you think, I was taken to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura by one of my friends. I did not want to go there, but he forcibly took me there. Yes. And he ordered me that "You preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu in English language. This is very much essential." So on the first meeting he told me like that. That was my first meeting with him. So at that time I was in favor of Gandhi's movement. So I said that "We are not independent -- subjugated. Who will hear about our message?" So Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura refuted my argument. I was very much pleased. I had so many talks. But I was very much pleased to be defeated, that "This so-called nationalism or any ism, they are all temporary. Real need is the self-realization."

So I was convinced. But at that time, although he wanted me to immediately join him and spread this movement, so at that time I was a married man, young man. I was married in 1918. And I got a son also at that time, 1921. And in 1922 I met him. At that time I was manager in a big chemical factory. So I thought that "I am married man. I have got so many responsibilities. How I can join immediately? It is not my duty." Of course, that was my mistake. I should have joined immediately. (laughter) I should have taken the opportunity immediately. But maya is there. So I thought like that. So that's a long history. Then in 1954, no, not 1954, 1968, when I was fifty-four years old... Nineteen fifty-four, yes. Nineteen fifty-four, I was at that time fifty-eight years. So I left home, and I was living alone. Then, 1958, I took sannyasa, and then I decided to take up the responsibility of my Guru Maharaja. I thought that "My other Godbrothers are trying, so I am not capable to do it. They are better situated." But somehow or other, they could not do very much, appreciative activities, in this connection.

So when I was seventy years old I decided, "Now I must do and execute the order of my Guru Maharaja. And thus this movement was started in 1965 from New York. And I was not very much hopeful because it is very difficult task, just opposite the European and Western culture. I came... When I first came, I had no money. So I got a free passage through some Indian steam navigation company. So I came by ship. So when I was on the ship at Boston port, Commonwealth port, I was thinking that "I have come here. I do not know what is the purpose because how the people will accept this movement? They are differently educated, and as soon as I will say, 'So, my dear sir, you have to give up meat-eating and illicit sex and no intoxication and gambling,' they will say, 'Please go home.' " (laughter) Because that was the experience of one of my Godbrother. He went to London, and he had the opportunity to talk with one big man, Marquis of Zetland. Marquis of Zetland was formerly governor of Bengal. At that time I was student. He was Scotsman, and I was student of the Scottish Churches' College. So he came to see our college, and he was standing in front of me in the second-year class. So he was very nice, good gentleman. So he proposed to my Godbrother, "Whether you can make me a brahmana?" So my Godbrother proposed, "Yes, we can make anyone brahmana provided you follow this principle: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling." So that Lord Zetland immediately replied, "Impossible." (laughter) So I was thinking that "I will propose something which is impossible. Anyway, let me try."

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Prabhupada: So now, by the grace of Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in the presence of my Guru Maharaja, you are so nice boys and girls. So in front of Caitanya Mahaprabhu you are chanting Hare Krsna mantra, and you are taking part in it very seriously. So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased upon you and bless you with all benefits.

So he wanted this, and he is not... It is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. He is seeing. I never feel that I am alone. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. But I had full faith that "My Guru Maharaja is with me." I never lost this faith, and that is fact. There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means this physical body. So vani is more important than the vapuh. Vapuh will be finished. This is material body. It will be finished. That is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up. It doesn't matter. Just like Bhagavad-gita. It was spoken five thousand years ago. But if you keep to the words of Krsna, then it is always fresh and guiding. Not that because Arjuna personally listened to Krsna about the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, therefore he knew it. That is not the fact. If you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then you should know that Krsna is present before you in His words in the Bhagavad-gita. This is called spiritual realization. It is not mundane historical incidences. If we keep...

evam parampara-praptam
imam rajarsayo viduh
sa kaleneha (mahata)
yogo nastah parantapa
[Bg. 4.2]

If you don't keep in touch with the original link, then it will be lost. And if you keep touch with the original link, then you are directly hearing Krsna. Similarly, Krsna and Krsna's representative, spiritual master, if you keep always intact, in link with the words and instruction of the superior authorities, then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit nityah sasvato 'yam purano [Bg. 2.20]. Puranah means very old. Just like Krsna, the Supreme Being. He must be very old because He is the original person. But the Brahma-samhita says, advaita acyuta anadi ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusa nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. Purana-purusa, the oldest person, but you will find Him nava-yauvanam ca, always a fresh youth. That is God. God is not a material, that it gets old. The body gets old.

So you are hearing this philosophy daily. Try to understand more and more. We have got so many books. And this is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and, by disciplic succession, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, then my spiritual master. Then we are trying our level best. Similarly, you will also try your level best on the same principle. Then it will go on. Same principle. It doesn't matter whether one is born in India or outside India. No. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama, "As many towns and cities and villages are there," He did not say it to make a farce. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So sometimes I am very much criticized that I am making foreigners a brahmana. The caste brahmanas in India, they are very much against me. But this is not fact. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that all over the world His message will be broadcast, does it mean that it will be simply a cinema show? No. He wanted that everyone should become perfect Vaisnava. That is His purpose. It is not to make a farce, some lecturing and..., or some mutual praising society. No. It is Krishna Society. Everyone who will join this Krishna Society movement, he is more than a brahmana. Brahmana, what is brahmana? Brahmana is also material. A devotee is more than brahmana. The brahminical culture is included already. Brahma janatiti brahmanah: "Brahmana means one who knows the Absolute Truth, Brahman." He is brahmana. But that is not very fixed up. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. Brahman is impersonal effulgence, and then further progress, realization of the localized aspect, Paramatma, Antaryami, and finally, understanding the Supreme Person, Krsna, Supreme Person, that is the final understanding.

So people cannot understand that how the Supreme, the origin of everything, can be a person. That is their difficulty. Because they are thinking, "A person, God? How it is possible. God is great, and He is the creator of everything. How a person can do that?" Yes. That is the Vedic version.

isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
[Bs. 5.1]

He is the cause of Brahman. He is the cause of Supersoul. So ordinary man cannot understand. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. It requires Krsna's grace to understand Him.

So try to receive Krsna's grace through the disciplic succession, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you will understand everything. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [SU 6.23]. This is the process, Vedic process. One should have unflinching faith in God and spiritual master. Don't jump over God, crossing the spiritual master. Then it will be failure. You must go through. We are observing Vyasa-puja ceremony, the birth anniversary of our Guru Maharaja. Why? We cannot understand Krsna without spiritual master. That is bogus. If anyone wants to understand Krsna, jumping over the spiritual master, then immediately he becomes a bogus. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. That is Vedic injunction. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. Nobody can understand Krsna without going through His most confidential servant. This is the meaning of this Vyasa-puja. You cannot surpass. If you think that you have become very learned and very advanced, now you can avoid the spiritual master and you understand Krsna, that is the bogus. That is the meaning of this Vyasa-puja ceremony. We should always pray, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. Yasya prasadad, only by the grace of spiritual master we can achieve the grace or mercy of Krsna. This is the meaning of this Vyasa-puja, offering obeisances by parampara system.

So you have taken a very nice line of activities, spiritual activities. Of course, as far as possible, we have tried to give you instruction, books. But remain always faithful to the spiritual master and try to understand Krsna. And if you simply understand Krsna, then your life is successful. Janma karma ca divyam me yo janati tattvatah. The human life is meant for understanding Krsna. That is the perfection of life. Any other so-called understanding, that is simply waste of time because we are under the grip of the material nature. You may be very learned scholar. You may be a fool. It doesn't matter. You are under the laws of material nature. So before finishing this small span of life... We have got this human form of life. It will be finished, as the cats' and dogs' life also finished. But if we try through the guru and Vaisnava, then, we can achieve in this life the full success, not failure like cats' and dogs' life. That is the opportunity. So as far as possible, we are trying to lead you in this line, and you kindly follow. Then your life will be successful. That is the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wanted to deliver these fallen souls, the conditioned souls rotting in this material world. So Krsna Himself... Krsna comes Himself, Krsna sends His devotees, Krsna comes as devotee -- just to execute this mission to reclaim the fallen souls from the clutches of illusory energy, material world.

Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada's Appearance Day, Lecture -- Atlanta, March 2, 1975


© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission.

"Become Devotee--God Will Care"

"Become Devotee--God Will Care"

25 May 75 , Honolulu

Prabhupada: So this Prahlada-caritra play, drama, is very instructive. Although it is not played on a very nice stage, theatrical, but the feeling expressed by the devotees in playing this Prahlada-caritra has become very successful. We want to understand the feeling. Externally, we may not be very much equipped. Krsna takes the feeling. Bhava-grahi janardana.

So Prahlada Maharaja is one of the great personality in devotional line. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. It is very difficult to understand what is the purpose of religious principle. People actually do not know what is religion; therefore we have got so many religious system, man-made, or concocted ideas. Actually, religion means the law given by God. That is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Just like the law given by the state, by the government, you have to accept it. There is no question that the government is Christian government or Muhammadan government or Hindu government. It doesn't matter. The law given by the government, you must accept. You cannot deny it. So actually God is neither Hindu God nor Muhammadan God nor Christian God. God is God. His power is omnipotent. It is equally applicable to Hindu, to Muslim, to Christian -- anyone -- to animal, to human being. Just like God has given this law, "You must die." This is applicable to everyone -- Hindu, Muslim, Christian, man, animal, trees, birds, beasts, everyone. It cannot be disobeyed. That is law. That is God's law. You may be very much advanced in knowledge or so-called science, but because God says that in the material life you must die, you cannot avoid this law. That is called dharma. Dharma means the characteristic, that God has given this law that everyone should die; therefore all living beings' characteristic is that he must die. This is called religion. Similarly, God says that "You are My eternal servant. You must obey Me." That is religion. You try to understand the meaning of religion. Religion means the law given by God, and you must accept it. That is religion.

So people do not know. They manufacture religion. So how you can manufacture religion? Law can be given by the king, by the state, by the government. If you manufacture some law at your home, consulting your wife or father and mother, who will accept it? Nobody will accept. You may be puffed up that you have manufactured a law, but nobody will care for it. The law given by the state will have to be accepted, either you like it or don't like it. The law will not depend on your liking and disliking. You must accept. If you don't accept, then you are a law breaker; you will be punished. Similarly, the religion means, as Krsna says in the Bhagavad..., sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion, that "You have manufactured so many types of religion. You give it up. Kick it out. This is religion: you surrender unto Me." So if you become a surrendered soul to God -- that means you become a devotee -- then you are religionist. Otherwise you are criminal. Therefore sastra says that you should follow the great devotees. That is religion. You cannot manufacture religion, you cannot concoct religion. You just try to follow the great personalities, and that is religion.

So there... In the sastra there are great personalities. They have been mentioned. Just like Lord Brahma, Narada Muni, Lord Siva, then Kumaras, then Kapila, Manu, and Prahlada. Prahlado janako bhismo. Prahlada Maharaja is one of the great personalities who knows what is religion. So he practiced it. Unfortunately, he was born of a atheist father, Hiranyakasipu. But by the grace of Narada Muni he knew what is religion. You have seen in the play that when his mother was pregnant, the demigods were taking her to the prison just to keep her observation, that the child which is born of a atheist father, Hiranyakasipu, may not be missed. They wanted to kill him also. But although he was born of an atheist father, demoniac father, he became a great devotee by the instruction of Narada Muni. Narada Muni took his poor mother. He asked the demigods, "Why you are harassing this lady? After all, she is woman. She is dependent." So by the order of Narada Muni they let her go, and her husband was engaged in tapasya, so she had no protection. Therefore Narada Muni took her at his asrama and instructed her about God consciousness. That is the duty of saintly person. So Prahlada Maharaja, while he was within the womb of his mother, he heard all those instructions. His mother in due course of time -- that is the nature of woman -- she forgot the instruction. But Prahlada Maharaja remembered; therefore he became a great devotee. This is the history of Prahlada Maharaja.

So Prahlada Maharaja became a devotee, not a so-called devotee, that "If my senses are gratified, then I shall continue to remain a devotee. Otherwise I shall slip away, go away. That's all." So he was not such kind of devotee. He remained devotee in all circumstances. You see his father wanted to chastise him is so many ways. But what was Prahlada's fault? He was chanting Hare Krsna, and the father did not like it. So he wanted to induce him to stop this Hare Krsna, but he never stopped. In all circumstances he remained steady in..., when he was thrown into the boiling water... It is said oil. He was put into the oil. So he remained steady. So many demonic persons threatened him; he remained steady. His mother was instructed by the father to give poison in the food. So he remained steady. Then the father understood that "My son has got some mystic power." The mystic power was that he was a great devotee of Krsna, that's all. A devotee never practices any mystic power. But a devotee, being protected by the supreme mystic, Krsna, a devotee is never in danger in all circumstances. That is the instruction in this... So just to try... Try to remain a devotee always, and Krsna will give you protection in all circumstance. There is no fear. Devotees, they remain devotee of Krsna, and Krsna does everything. If something mystic or magic has to be shown, the devotee does not take any credit for that magic, because the magic is done by Krsna for the sake of devotee. So he doesn't require to learn the art of magic to cheat the people. That is not. When magic is required, Krsna plays. Krsna is called Yogesvara. Yoga is mystic power, and He is the Yogesvara, master of yoga, mystic power. Yatra yogesvarah harih. Just like Krsna was on the chariot of the Kuruksetra battle, Arjuna. Arjuna was facing enemies, big, big enemies like Bhisma, Karna, Dronacarya, and many other who were very very powerful. Arjuna was nothing before them. They are compared with timingila, timingila, a big fish which swallows up the whale fishes. So Maharaja Pariksit said that "Although they were timingila-like, they could kill thousands of Arjuna, but still, because You were protecting him, sitting on his chariot, they were killed; Arjuna was not killed."

So the devotee, he doesn't require to acquire any mystic power. What mystic power Prahlada could attain? He was only five years old. So there was no opportunity of acquiring any mystic power. But he was being protected by the supreme mystic, Krsna. That should be a devotee's point of view. Don't waste your time for acquiring so-called mystic power. Just devote yourself to remain a pure devotee of Krsna, and you become the supreme mystic. That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:

yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
[Bg. 6.47]

There are many yogis, mystics, but Krsna confirms that "Of all the yogis, of all the mystics, a person who is always thinking of Me," sraddhavan bhajate yo mam, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana, "always thinking Me, Krsna, within himself: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare...," so Krsna said, "he is the best yogi." Yoginam api sarvesam. Sarvesam means "of all." "Of all kinds of yogis, the best yogi is who is always thinking of Me." That is Krsna's philosophy, He is teaching in the Bhagavad-gita. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. If you sincerely do these four things -- always think of Krsna, man-mana; just become His devotee, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto; mad-yaji, worship Krsna... Just like we do in the temple room. Man-mana... You can do worship anywhere if you are a devotee. A devotee can worship Krsna anywhere, underneath a tree. Because Krsna is in everyone's heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. So if underneath a tree you think of Krsna and chant Hare Krsna, that is sufficient. Krsna does not require any big paraphernalia. He only wants how you are a sincere devotee. That's all. And that devotional service can be discharged in any condition. Ahaituky apratihata. It cannot be checked by the material circumstances. This is the process of Krsna consciousness. And you see the five-years-old boy, how he was protected from all kinds of dangers and he refused to take any benediction. He refused. The devotee should not be a mercantile man: "If you give me something, then I shall give you something." That is business. A devotee is not like that. He understands that he is eternal servant of Krsna, his duty is to serve Krsna. In the material world a servant works when money is paid, wages. A devotee is not like that. A devotee serves Krsna out of duty. That is God consciousness, Krsna consciousness, that "It is my duty." And then Krsna takes the responsibility, "It is My duty to protect this devotee." This reciprocation is called Krsna consciousness. There is no question of business transaction. Then he will be protected. Krsna is nobody's servant, but everyone is Krsna's servant. If everyone becomes Krsna's servant, then everyone is protected by Krsna. Krsna is protecting. Krsna is God, so He is protecting everyone, He is giving food everyone, but especially inclined to the devotees. Samah sarvesu-bhutesu.

There is a verse, samo 'ham sarva-bhutesu na me dvesyo 'sti na priyah [Bg. 9.29]. Krsna says God must be equal to everyone. God is one, so He is giving everyone food. The birds, beasts, they are getting food. The elephant he is also getting food. So who is supplying him food? Krsna, God is supplying. So in that way He is equal to everyone in ordinary dealing. But especially deals with the devotees. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. When he was put into danger, then Lord Nrsimhadeva came personally to give him protection. That is the special duty of God. That is not unnatural. If somebody says, "God is partial, that He takes special care of His devotee," no, that is not partiality. Just like a gentleman -- in the neighborhood, he loves all children, but when his own child is in danger, he takes special care. That is not unnatural. You cannot blame him that "Why you are taking special care of your own child?" No. That is natural. Nobody will blame him. Similarly, everyone is God's sons, but His devotee is special. That is God's special attention. Ye tu bhajanti mam pritya tesu te mayi. So God is giving protection to every living entity, but if you become devotee of the Lord, pure devotee, without any motive, then God will take special care of you. That is Krsna consciousness movement, that we are being harassed by maya, the material energy, and if we take shelter of Krsna then we will be specially protected. Mam eva prapadyante mayam etam taranti te.

So try to become devotee of Krsna. Our Krsna consciousness movement is teaching this philosophy. We have got so many books. Whoever comes here must read the books, devotee, the inmates of the temple, outsider, then you will understand what is Krsna consciousness. Or you should chant Hare Krsna only. Don't talk rubbish things, waste time. That is not good. A single moment is so valuable that you cannot purchase it by millions of dollars. Now today is 25th May, four o'clock gone. You cannot bring it back. Four o'clock, 25th May, 1975, if you want to get it back again by paying millions of dollars, it will not be possible. Therefore we should be very careful of our time. Time once wasted, you cannot get it back return. Better utilize this time. The best utilization is to chant Hare Krsna or think of Krsna, worship Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Lecture -- Honolulu, May 25, 1975

"Attachment to Krsna is Natural"

"Attachment to Krsna is Natural"

27 Dec 75 , Sanand

Prabhupada: ...sri-bhagavan uvaca means the supreme authority. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. If you learn from the supreme authority without any deficiency, then the knowledge is perfect. Ordinary person, they have got four deficiencies: they commit mistake, they are illusioned, their senses are imperfect, and with imperfect knowledge they try to speak -- that is cheating. Therefore we have to receive knowledge from the person who knows past, present, and future. So the best personality -- there are so many others -- Krsna and His representative, both of them are perfect because Krsna is perfect, there is no doubt, and one who speaks according to Krsna, he is also perfect. A human being or a living being is not expected to become as perfect as Krsna. That is not possible. Therefore, if a person sticks to the instruction of Krsna, does not make any addition and alteration, he is also perfect. Unfortunately, at the present moment especially... It was done formerly also five thousand years, that they make addition and alteration on the version of Krsna. Just like Bhagavad-gita is misinterpreted by so-called scholars and politicians. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. Somebody interprets, "This dharma-ksetra is this body." Why? Why one should interpret in that way? Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre is still there. People go to Kuruksetra for executing religious rituals. And in the Vedas it is stated, kuru-ksetre dharmam acaret. So why it should be interpreted as "body"? And where is the dictionary where dharma-ksetra means "body"? So in this way, if we interpret Bhagavad-gita, then we spoil the whole thing. I spoil myself and spoil others. Therefore the conclusion is we shall accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, as it is spoken by Krsna.

So here the bhagavan uvaca, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is speaking. So we shall take it without any interpretation. The Bhagavan says, mayy asakta-manah.

mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram (mam)
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu
[Bg. 7.1]

So Bhagavan says, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme authority, says that "You require to transfer your asakti, attachment, to Me." Everyone has got asakti. Asakti means attachment, this material attachment. Someone has got attachment for his family, some to society, some to nation, some in business and so many things. Asakti is there. But to make your life perfect, you have to transfer the asakti to Krsna. In the Western countries, I have seen, most of them, they have got no family, no asakti family, but because the asakti is there, every one of them keeps a dog. So they are accustomed to place their asakti to cats and dogs. That means asakti cannot be finished. That is not possible. So you haven't got to learn what is asakti. Asakti is there. Everyone has got experience. Simply that asakti, that tendency of attachment, should be transferred to Krsna. That is Vrndavana life. In Vrndavana the center of asakti is Krsna. There is Nanda Maharaja, Yasoda -- they have asakti to Krsna. The young girls, they have got asakti to Krsna. The cowherd boys, they have got asakti to Krsna. The trees, they have got asakti to Krsna. The fruits, flowers, they have got asakti to Krsna. The water, Yamuna River, the asakti to Krsna. So if we make our central point of asakti, then you can create Vrndavana everywhere. So this is the success of life. We have to change the asakti to Krsna. That is the highest form of mystic yoga. Krsna has already explained in the previous verse,

yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gata antaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo (matah)
[Bg. 6.47]

Aneka yogis... There are many yogis, many form of yoga practice, mystic, but the yogi who is always thinking of Krsna, he is first-class yogi.

So our this Krsna consciousness movement means to educate people how to become attached to Krsna. But if one does not know what is Krsna, there is no question of increasing his asakti for Krsna. So to understand Krsna, Krsna personally appears to draw our attention to Krsna. When we forget our asakti, that is material life, forget our asakti for Krsna, that is our material life, or we struggle for existence in the material life. That is said by Krsna:

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]

This dharmasya glani, deviation from the occupational duty... Dharma means occupational duty. Then Krsna, out of His causeless mercy, He appears to teach us how to divert your attention and asakti to Krsna. So dharmasya glani, deviation in the path of religious system, means to forget our eternal relationship with Krsna. Therefore Krsna ultimately, at the end of the Bhagavad-gita, He says, as the Supreme Person, He orders, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore He did not come to establish the so-called Hindu dharma or Mussulman dharma or Christian dharma, this dharma or that. He came to establish the real dharma, that is, to surrender to Krsna. So Srimad-Bhagavatam is establishing also in the beginning, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] In the Srimad-Bhagavatam the so-called cheating ways and cheating type of dharmas are kicked out, projjhita, thrown away. Srimad-Bhagavatam is explaining what is real dharma as it is established by Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So according to dharma-sastra, material dharma-sastra, it is said, dharma artha kama moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], up to moksa. In this connection Sridhara Swami, the great commentator of Srimad-Bhagavatam, he says, atra moksa-vancha api nirasta: "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no chance or opportunity for thinking of so-called liberation." The purpose is that if one fully surrenders to Krsna, he immediately becomes liberated. The Bilvamangala Thakura, he says, muktih mukulitanjali sevate asman. Why... For a devotee, why he should be anxious for mukti, because mukti is always standing on his door to give him service, mukulitanjali-seva, with folded hands. So a devotee hasn't got to endeavor separately for mukti. As soon as he is engaged in devotional service, mukti is already there. Just like if a person becomes rich man, automatically his poverty is gone away. So a rich man does not require to endeavor separately to drive away poverty. So therefore the central point is, Krsna is advising here, "Just increase your asakti, attachment, for Me. Then everything will come."

So He recommends, mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. This word mad-asrayah is very important, because you cannot increase your attachment for Krsna without being mad-asrayah. Mad-asrayah means to be directly under the direction of Krsna or to be directly under the direction of somebody who has taken shelter of Krsna. Therefore He recommends mad-asrayah. You cannot execute the yoga system, devotional service, bhakti-yoga, without being under the control of somebody who is under the control of Krsna. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami has recommended therefore, yad upasrayasraya. One has to take shelter of a pure devotee; then he becomes purified. Yad upasraya. Upasraya means to take shelter of a pure devotee. And in that case,

kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti (tasmai) prabhavisnave namah
[SB 2.4.18]

So not only those who are highly elevated brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra... Sudras... Less than sudra, they are called kirata, huna, andhra, pulinda, pulkasa, abhira, yavanah, khasadayah. They also can be purified if they take shelter of a pure devotee. Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mam ca...,

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striya vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]

Means that "Anyone, even if he is born in the papa-yoni, the papa-yoni, kirata, huna, if he takes shelter of Me, then he also gets the supreme perfection." Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Now it is the duty of a devotee of Krsna to expand this progressive march toward devotional service. Otherwise, how the papa-yoni will learn? This is para upakara. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission,

bharata-bhumite manusya janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

That every Indian who has taken birth in India as a human being, he should first of all make his life successful by understanding Krsna, and then he must preach outside to render service to others as welfare activities.

So Krsna appeared as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us practically how to preach Krsna consciousness and how to deliver persons from the papa-yoni. Sri Narottama dasa Thakura, a acarya of the Gaudiya sampradaya, he says in his song, sri-nanda-nandana yei, nanda-suta haila yei, saci-suta haila sei. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He appeared as the son of mother Saci. Narottama dasa Thakura sings, "The same Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of Maharaja Nanda," nanda-suta haila yei, saci-suta haila sei, "He has now appeared as the son of mother Saci." And balarama haila nitai: "And the same Balarama has appeared as Nityananda prabhu." Now, what is Their business? That is described: papi tapi yata chilo, hari-name uddharilo. So papi tapi yata chilo, harinam..., ta'ra saksi jagai and madhai. Then he is giving evidence how the papi and tapis are delivered. "Here is the example of Jagai-Madhai." This Jagai-Madhai, they took birth in a good brahmana family but by bad association they became drunkard, thief, woman-hunter, and so on, so on. But they were also delivered by Caitanya Mahaprabhu to become first-class Vaisnava.

So our aim should be how to increase our attachment. The attachment is there. It is not artificial. It is said in the Caitanya-caritamrta that,

nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

The Krsna bhakti, attachment for Krsna, is quite natural. It is already there. Simply it has to be awakened.

nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

If you engage yourself to hear about Krsna, then your heart will be purified and your original Krsna consciousness will be awakened. For this purpose Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu also advises, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, "All glories to the sankirtana movement," because simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, everything will automatically come in. The complete instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is,

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam
sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam
anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam
(sarvatma-snapanam) param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam
[Cc. Antya 20.12]

So the sankirtana movement, Krsna consciousness movement, the more you chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra, your, the heart disease, material enjoyment, that will decrease, and then you will understand what is your position and you will be gradually attracted by Krsna. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. This is the test of bhakti, that if you engage yourself twenty-four hours in devotional service, then immediately you become liberated. Bhaktih paresa... Liberation means to become detestful to material enjoyment.

So Krsna attachment is so nice that... Dhruva Maharaja, he was in the beginning attracted by material enjoyment. He wanted a kingdom more than his father, and he went to the forest for meeting the Supreme Personality of Godhead to get this benediction. So Dhruva Maharaja actually, when he saw the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he refused to accept any benediction. Svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. This is the benefit of Krsna asakti. If you actually become attached to Krsna, then you'll think yourself completely filled up. There is no more asking for any material benefit. Therefore in the sastra it is recommended,

akamah sarva-kamo va
moksa-kama udara-dhih
tivrena bhakti-yogena
yajeta paramam purusa
[SB 2.3.10]

Even if you have got material desires, sarva-kama, still you be attached to Krsna so your material aspiration will be fulfilled; at the same time, you'll get Krsna. When Dhruva Maharaja refused to take any benediction, Lord Visnu informed him that "Don't bother. You had some desire for material fulfillment, so there is Dhruvaloka. You enjoy, and after your life is finished, you'll come to Vaikuntha." So Krsna is so nice, so liberal, that if you have got a little tinge of aspiration He will fulfill you, and at the same time, you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore it is recommended, yajeta paramam purusa. If you have got some material desire, still you worship Krsna. He'll fulfill; at the same time, you will be able to go back to home, back to Godhead. Krsna is all-powerful, almighty, full with six opulences. So if you have got any material desire, that also Krsna can fulfill, but you stick to Krsna so that your asakti will be increased. If you divert your attention to other demigods, then this asakti will fail. Therefore for a devotee who sticks his faith in Krsna, he has no chance for worshiping other demigods. So the Narottama dasa Thakura says, anya devasraya nai, tomare kahinu bhai, ei parama bhakti karana. For a devotee of Krsna there is no scope for worshiping other Deity, because that will not help him to increase his attachment for Krsna. But if we want our asakti, attachment, to increase for Krsna, then absolute...

anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]

We have to give up all other material desires, simply stick to Krsna to serve Him, always ready to serve Him. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like Arjuna. He was ready to serve Krsna. Similarly, everyone should be ready to serve Krsna. That is the perfection of life.

So one has to execute this process of devotional service. As Krsna said, mad-asraya: "Take shelter of Me, or My devotee." Now, at the present moment, in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita Krsna is personally instructing, so let us take shelter of His personal instruction and make our life successful. And not only he becomes a devotee, but a pure devotee understands Krsna as it is said here, asamsayam samagram, not partially but fully. It is, of course, not possible to understand Krsna fully. Still, almost fully a devotee can understand Krsna. That is also confirmed in the last paragraph, last chapter,

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
[Bg. 18.55]

So if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must increase our attachment for Krsna, and by that process we can understand Krsna, what He is. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Then our door to go back to home, back to Godhead is clear. The conclusion is, therefore, that we should take to the bhakti process as it is enunciated in authoritative sastra, by Krsna, by the acaryas. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the way, only, for our perfection of life.
Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => "Attachment to Krsna is Natural"

27 Dec 75 , Sanand

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Prabhupada: ...sri-bhagavan uvaca means the supreme authority. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. If you learn from the supreme authority without any deficiency, then the knowledge is perfect. Ordinary person, they have got four deficiencies: they commit mistake, they are illusioned, their senses are imperfect, and with imperfect knowledge they try to speak -- that is cheating. Therefore we have to receive knowledge from the person who knows past, present, and future. So the best personality -- there are so many others -- Krsna and His representative, both of them are perfect because Krsna is perfect, there is no doubt, and one who speaks according to Krsna, he is also perfect. A human being or a living being is not expected to become as perfect as Krsna. That is not possible. Therefore, if a person sticks to the instruction of Krsna, does not make any addition and alteration, he is also perfect. Unfortunately, at the present moment especially... It was done formerly also five thousand years, that they make addition and alteration on the version of Krsna. Just like Bhagavad-gita is misinterpreted by so-called scholars and politicians. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. Somebody interprets, "This dharma-ksetra is this body." Why? Why one should interpret in that way? Interpretation is required when things are not very clear. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre is still there. People go to Kuruksetra for executing religious rituals. And in the Vedas it is stated, kuru-ksetre dharmam acaret. So why it should be interpreted as "body"? And where is the dictionary where dharma-ksetra means "body"? So in this way, if we interpret Bhagavad-gita, then we spoil the whole thing. I spoil myself and spoil others. Therefore the conclusion is we shall accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, as it is spoken by Krsna.

So here the bhagavan uvaca, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is speaking. So we shall take it without any interpretation. The Bhagavan says, mayy asakta-manah.

mayy asakta-manah partha
yogam yunjan mad-asrayah
asamsayam samagram (mam)
yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu
[Bg. 7.1]

So Bhagavan says, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme authority, says that "You require to transfer your asakti, attachment, to Me." Everyone has got asakti. Asakti means attachment, this material attachment. Someone has got attachment for his family, some to society, some to nation, some in business and so many things. Asakti is there. But to make your life perfect, you have to transfer the asakti to Krsna. In the Western countries, I have seen, most of them, they have got no family, no asakti family, but because the asakti is there, every one of them keeps a dog. So they are accustomed to place their asakti to cats and dogs. That means asakti cannot be finished. That is not possible. So you haven't got to learn what is asakti. Asakti is there. Everyone has got experience. Simply that asakti, that tendency of attachment, should be transferred to Krsna. That is Vrndavana life. In Vrndavana the center of asakti is Krsna. There is Nanda Maharaja, Yasoda -- they have asakti to Krsna. The young girls, they have got asakti to Krsna. The cowherd boys, they have got asakti to Krsna. The trees, they have got asakti to Krsna. The fruits, flowers, they have got asakti to Krsna. The water, Yamuna River, the asakti to Krsna. So if we make our central point of asakti, then you can create Vrndavana everywhere. So this is the success of life. We have to change the asakti to Krsna. That is the highest form of mystic yoga. Krsna has already explained in the previous verse,

yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gata antaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo (matah)
[Bg. 6.47]

Aneka yogis... There are many yogis, many form of yoga practice, mystic, but the yogi who is always thinking of Krsna, he is first-class yogi.

So our this Krsna consciousness movement means to educate people how to become attached to Krsna. But if one does not know what is Krsna, there is no question of increasing his asakti for Krsna. So to understand Krsna, Krsna personally appears to draw our attention to Krsna. When we forget our asakti, that is material life, forget our asakti for Krsna, that is our material life, or we struggle for existence in the material life. That is said by Krsna:

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]

This dharmasya glani, deviation from the occupational duty... Dharma means occupational duty. Then Krsna, out of His causeless mercy, He appears to teach us how to divert your attention and asakti to Krsna. So dharmasya glani, deviation in the path of religious system, means to forget our eternal relationship with Krsna. Therefore Krsna ultimately, at the end of the Bhagavad-gita, He says, as the Supreme Person, He orders, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Therefore He did not come to establish the so-called Hindu dharma or Mussulman dharma or Christian dharma, this dharma or that. He came to establish the real dharma, that is, to surrender to Krsna. So Srimad-Bhagavatam is establishing also in the beginning, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] In the Srimad-Bhagavatam the so-called cheating ways and cheating type of dharmas are kicked out, projjhita, thrown away. Srimad-Bhagavatam is explaining what is real dharma as it is established by Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So according to dharma-sastra, material dharma-sastra, it is said, dharma artha kama moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], up to moksa. In this connection Sridhara Swami, the great commentator of Srimad-Bhagavatam, he says, atra moksa-vancha api nirasta: "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no chance or opportunity for thinking of so-called liberation." The purpose is that if one fully surrenders to Krsna, he immediately becomes liberated. The Bilvamangala Thakura, he says, muktih mukulitanjali sevate asman. Why... For a devotee, why he should be anxious for mukti, because mukti is always standing on his door to give him service, mukulitanjali-seva, with folded hands. So a devotee hasn't got to endeavor separately for mukti. As soon as he is engaged in devotional service, mukti is already there. Just like if a person becomes rich man, automatically his poverty is gone away. So a rich man does not require to endeavor separately to drive away poverty. So therefore the central point is, Krsna is advising here, "Just increase your asakti, attachment, for Me. Then everything will come."

So He recommends, mayy asakta-manah partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayah. This word mad-asrayah is very important, because you cannot increase your attachment for Krsna without being mad-asrayah. Mad-asrayah means to be directly under the direction of Krsna or to be directly under the direction of somebody who has taken shelter of Krsna. Therefore He recommends mad-asrayah. You cannot execute the yoga system, devotional service, bhakti-yoga, without being under the control of somebody who is under the control of Krsna. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami has recommended therefore, yad upasrayasraya. One has to take shelter of a pure devotee; then he becomes purified. Yad upasraya. Upasraya means to take shelter of a pure devotee. And in that case,

kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa
abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah
ye 'nye ca papa yad-apasrayasrayah
sudhyanti (tasmai) prabhavisnave namah
[SB 2.4.18]

So not only those who are highly elevated brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra... Sudras... Less than sudra, they are called kirata, huna, andhra, pulinda, pulkasa, abhira, yavanah, khasadayah. They also can be purified if they take shelter of a pure devotee. Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mam ca...,

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striya vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatim
[Bg. 9.32]

Means that "Anyone, even if he is born in the papa-yoni, the papa-yoni, kirata, huna, if he takes shelter of Me, then he also gets the supreme perfection." Te 'pi yanti param gatim. Now it is the duty of a devotee of Krsna to expand this progressive march toward devotional service. Otherwise, how the papa-yoni will learn? This is para upakara. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission,

bharata-bhumite manusya janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari kara para-upakara
[Cc. Adi 9.41]

That every Indian who has taken birth in India as a human being, he should first of all make his life successful by understanding Krsna, and then he must preach outside to render service to others as welfare activities.

So Krsna appeared as Caitanya Mahaprabhu to teach us practically how to preach Krsna consciousness and how to deliver persons from the papa-yoni. Sri Narottama dasa Thakura, a acarya of the Gaudiya sampradaya, he says in his song, sri-nanda-nandana yei, nanda-suta haila yei, saci-suta haila sei. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He appeared as the son of mother Saci. Narottama dasa Thakura sings, "The same Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of Maharaja Nanda," nanda-suta haila yei, saci-suta haila sei, "He has now appeared as the son of mother Saci." And balarama haila nitai: "And the same Balarama has appeared as Nityananda prabhu." Now, what is Their business? That is described: papi tapi yata chilo, hari-name uddharilo. So papi tapi yata chilo, harinam..., ta'ra saksi jagai and madhai. Then he is giving evidence how the papi and tapis are delivered. "Here is the example of Jagai-Madhai." This Jagai-Madhai, they took birth in a good brahmana family but by bad association they became drunkard, thief, woman-hunter, and so on, so on. But they were also delivered by Caitanya Mahaprabhu to become first-class Vaisnava.

So our aim should be how to increase our attachment. The attachment is there. It is not artificial. It is said in the Caitanya-caritamrta that,

nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

The Krsna bhakti, attachment for Krsna, is quite natural. It is already there. Simply it has to be awakened.

nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti sadhya kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

If you engage yourself to hear about Krsna, then your heart will be purified and your original Krsna consciousness will be awakened. For this purpose Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu also advises, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, "All glories to the sankirtana movement," because simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, everything will automatically come in. The complete instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu is,

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam
sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam
anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam
(sarvatma-snapanam) param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam
[Cc. Antya 20.12]

So the sankirtana movement, Krsna consciousness movement, the more you chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra, your, the heart disease, material enjoyment, that will decrease, and then you will understand what is your position and you will be gradually attracted by Krsna. Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. This is the test of bhakti, that if you engage yourself twenty-four hours in devotional service, then immediately you become liberated. Bhaktih paresa... Liberation means to become detestful to material enjoyment.

So Krsna attachment is so nice that... Dhruva Maharaja, he was in the beginning attracted by material enjoyment. He wanted a kingdom more than his father, and he went to the forest for meeting the Supreme Personality of Godhead to get this benediction. So Dhruva Maharaja actually, when he saw the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he refused to accept any benediction. Svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace [Cc. Madhya 22.42]. This is the benefit of Krsna asakti. If you actually become attached to Krsna, then you'll think yourself completely filled up. There is no more asking for any material benefit. Therefore in the sastra it is recommended,

akamah sarva-kamo va
moksa-kama udara-dhih
tivrena bhakti-yogena
yajeta paramam purusa
[SB 2.3.10]

Even if you have got material desires, sarva-kama, still you be attached to Krsna so your material aspiration will be fulfilled; at the same time, you'll get Krsna. When Dhruva Maharaja refused to take any benediction, Lord Visnu informed him that "Don't bother. You had some desire for material fulfillment, so there is Dhruvaloka. You enjoy, and after your life is finished, you'll come to Vaikuntha." So Krsna is so nice, so liberal, that if you have got a little tinge of aspiration He will fulfill you, and at the same time, you'll go back to home, back to Godhead. Therefore it is recommended, yajeta paramam purusa. If you have got some material desire, still you worship Krsna. He'll fulfill; at the same time, you will be able to go back to home, back to Godhead. Krsna is all-powerful, almighty, full with six opulences. So if you have got any material desire, that also Krsna can fulfill, but you stick to Krsna so that your asakti will be increased. If you divert your attention to other demigods, then this asakti will fail. Therefore for a devotee who sticks his faith in Krsna, he has no chance for worshiping other demigods. So the Narottama dasa Thakura says, anya devasraya nai, tomare kahinu bhai, ei parama bhakti karana. For a devotee of Krsna there is no scope for worshiping other Deity, because that will not help him to increase his attachment for Krsna. But if we want our asakti, attachment, to increase for Krsna, then absolute...

anyabhilasita-sunyam
jnana-karmady anavrtam
anukulyena krsnanu-
silanam bhaktir uttama
[Brs. 1.1.11]

We have to give up all other material desires, simply stick to Krsna to serve Him, always ready to serve Him. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Just like Arjuna. He was ready to serve Krsna. Similarly, everyone should be ready to serve Krsna. That is the perfection of life.

So one has to execute this process of devotional service. As Krsna said, mad-asraya: "Take shelter of Me, or My devotee." Now, at the present moment, in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita Krsna is personally instructing, so let us take shelter of His personal instruction and make our life successful. And not only he becomes a devotee, but a pure devotee understands Krsna as it is said here, asamsayam samagram, not partially but fully. It is, of course, not possible to understand Krsna fully. Still, almost fully a devotee can understand Krsna. That is also confirmed in the last paragraph, last chapter,

bhaktya mam abhijanati
yavan yas casmi tattvatah
tato mam tattvato jnatva
visate tad-anantaram
[Bg. 18.55]

So if we want to go back to home, back to Godhead, then we must increase our attachment for Krsna, and by that process we can understand Krsna, what He is. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Then our door to go back to home, back to Godhead is clear. The conclusion is, therefore, that we should take to the bhakti process as it is enunciated in authoritative sastra, by Krsna, by the acaryas. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is the way, only, for our perfection of life.
Thank you very much. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Lecture with Translator -- Sanand, December 27, 1975

"Varnasrama-dharma, Varnasankara"

6 Jun 74 , Geneva

Prabhupada: So Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your participating in this meeting. Our Krsna consciousness movement is based on the authority of this Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita, I think most of you know, Indians or foreigners. And some of you must have read Bhagavad-gita. We have published Bhagavad-gita as it is, without any malinterpretation. In the Bhagavad-gita, the author of the Bhagavad-gita is enounced as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the Hindus, especially the Vaisnavas... Vaisnava or not Vaisnava, Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. We... Our Indian spiritual life is guided by the acaryas, sampradaya acarya, the Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami and Nimbarka. There is... Whole Indian spiritual culture is dependent on the guidance of these acarya. And in the Bhagavad-gita also, in the Thirteenth Chapter, it is advised, acarya upasanam: "One should follow the instruction of the acarya." That is our Vedic civilization. And in the Bhagavad-gita, also, it is said in the fourth chapter, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. The science of God... Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. This is a yoga system, this Bhagavad-gita. So Krsna says that "Formerly, this yoga system was spoken by Me to the sun-god, Vivasvan." And visvasvan manave prahur, "Then the sun-god, whose name is Vivasvan at the present moment..." We get all information from the sastra. Each and every planet has got a predominating personality. Just like we have got on this planet, a few presidents. But in other planets, there are also presidents, and their name is also... Because the duration of other planet is very, very great. The topmost planet, which is known as Brahmaloka, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, sahasra-yuga-paryantam ahar yad brahmano viduh [Bg. 8.17]. Many millions of years, sahasra-yuga. One yuga means forty-three hundred thousands of solar years, and multiply it by one thousand. That becomes the duration of one day in the Brahmaloka. So in different planets, there are different duration of life, different standard of life.

So all these information we get from the Vedic scripture, just like Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam and Upanisad, like that. And we follow the instruction. That is good for human society. Human society, if they do not follow the footprints of great acaryas, great saintly persons, then there will be trouble. And that is happening actually. In the Bhagavad-gita, when Krsna was..., Krsna and Arjuna was talking, so Arjuna presented the after-effects of war, that women will be widows and their, they will not be able to keep their character, and then adharma, irreligious principles, will begin. So he said... He was arguing like this, that,

adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
[Bg. 1.40]

The Vedic civilization is varnasrama-dharma. If the varnasrama-dharma is not properly protected, then there will be population who are called varna-sankara, mixed population. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra -- that is the natural division. The society must be divided... Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. (aside:) There is no need. The natural division... Just like you have got natural division in your body: the head, the arms, the belly and the legs, similarly, social divisions, there is. Some of them are very intelligent men, class of men, and some of them are martial-spirited persons, and some of them are interested in trades and industry, and some of them are interested only for filling up the belly. So this is natural division. Therefore Krsna says, catur-varnyam maya srstam. If this catur-varnyam, this division... The most intelligent class of men, they should be trained up as brahmana. Samo damo titiksa arjava jnanam vijnanam astikyam brahma-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.42]. The social division must be there. The most intellectual class of men, they should be engaged in studying the Vedas and acquire the knowledge and spread it to the human society so that they may be guided and do the needful for peaceful situation of the society. That is the guidance. The ksatriyas, they're meant for protecting the society, military power, or martial-spirited. When there is danger, attack, they'll give us protection. Similarly, there must be a class of men for producing food grain, and giving protection to the cows. Krsi-go-raksya vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. And the rest of the people, who cannot work as intellectuals or as martial-spirited persons or cannot take to production of foodstuffs, they should assist all these three classes of men. And they are called sudras. This is the social division. So this is called varnasrama-dharma. The word dharma is used. Dharma means occupational duty. Dharma does not mean some religious sentiment. No. Natural division and the occupational duty.

So here Arjuna says,

adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
[Bg. 1.40]

So the precaution was to stop varna-sankara. Varna-sankara means, I mean to say, chaotic condition of these four classes of men. And next he says,

sankaro narakayaiva
kula-ghnanam kulasya ca
patanti pitaro hy esam
lupta-pindodaka-kriyah
[Bg. 1.41]

There are so many talks about to keep the varnasrama intact for peaceful condition of the society, and the modern problem, the overpopulation... We... In the sastras, in the Vedic literature, we don't find such thing as overpopulation, because the living entities are already fixed up. From the Padma-Purana, we can understand that the living entities, they're very, very small particles of the supreme spirit soul, or God. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. And their dimension is also mentioned, kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca: [Cc. Madhya 19.140] the one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. And jiva-bhago sa vijneya sa anantaya kalpate. So the living entities are already ananta, unlimited. In another place of Upanisad, Kathopanisad, we find that nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). These living entities, they are maintained. Their provision for their maintenance is already there, made by God. So there is no question of overpopulation. The question is varna-sankara. Varna-sankara, that is the problem. So the human life is meant for systematic organization of spiritual realization. That is human life. There is evolutionary process from low-grade life, from aquatics to trees, plants, from trees, plants to insects, from insects to birds, and then from birds to the beasts, from beasts to human being. So there are 8,400,000's of living entities in different species of life. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said,

sarva-yonisu kaunteya
sambhavanti murtayo yah
tasam mahad-yonir brahma
aham bija-pradah pita
[Bg. 14.4]

So Krsna, or God, claims that He is the seed-giving father of all these living entities. So as the father makes provision for maintenance of the sons and children, so God is not incapable. He has made provision for all these living entities. But when we mismanage, we become varna-sankara, there is calamity. So far I have studied -- I am touring all over the world -- there are enough place uncultivated. Especially I have seen in Australia and Africa, there is enough place that is not being utilized. In India also, there are enough places still. That is not being utilized. And Bhagavad-gita says, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. The maintenance of the living entities -- bhutani means living entities -- can be done by production of food grains. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Then parjanyad anna-sambhavah. And then it is said, parjanyad anna-sambhavah, yajnad bhavati parjanyo yajnah karma-samudbhavam [Bg. 3.14]. This formula is given in the Bhagavad-gita, that living entities, it doesn't matter whether animal or men, they are flourished, they are raised very nicely, provided there is anna. Anna means food grain. So we can produce enough quantity of food grains all over the world. And if we actually produce food grains, we can feed ten times of the population which are at present. But unfortunately, we are not producing food grains. That is the problem. It is not the problem of overpopulation. It is the problem that we are not producing food grains. This is clearly stated, that unless you have sufficient food grains, how you can maintain? They have taken a policy that they would not... Especially in the Western countries, I see that they will not produce food. They will raise some cattles and send them to the slaughterhouse for eating. This policy is going on. And this is not a very good policy. You produce your food grain. Why you should kill the innocent animals and eat them? So on account of these sinful activities, according to Vedic civlization, there are four kinds of sinful activities. One sinful activity is illegitimate, illicit sex life. According to Vedic civilization, without marriage, no sex life is allowed. Therefore marriage is compulsory. In every human society, there is marriage. But according to Vedic civilization, marriage is compulsory, samskara. So therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, strisu dustasu varsneya jayate varna-sankarah. If the women are not married, then varna-sankara population will increase. It is said. And as soon as there is varna-sankara population, the whole world will be in chaotic condition.

So the, our Krsna consciousness movement, we are suggesting from the sastras, from the Vedic literature, how to reorganize the human society. Actually, there is no scarcity of food, there is no scarcity of land. Everything, there is sufficient. From the Isopanisad, we understand... Not only this planet; in every planet there is sufficient arrangement.

purnam adah purnam idam
purnat purnam udacyate
purnasya purnam adaya
purnam eva avasi...
[Iso Invocation]

It is factually complete. There is no problem. The problem is that we are not following the, I mean to..., the principles of life as they are enunciated, as they are enjoined. Dharma, the word dharma, it is not a, a religious sentiment. Dharma means occupational duty. So in the... From Vedic literature, we understand that dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the laws given by God. Unfortunately, at the present moment, they have no information what is God and what is God's law and how to abide God's law. They're all in ignorance and they're manufacturing their own way of life, every day changing. This will not solve the problems of human society. If we actually follow the Vedic injunction, it is very simple thing. The whole idea is that everything belongs to God. Actually, that's a fact. This is the... Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. Everything be... Now this United Nations, they're trying to be united, but actually, in the heart, they have got this, "This is my land," "This is my land." The American thinking, "This is my land." The German thinking, "Oh, it is my land." Indians thinking, "My land." Actually, there is no knowledge. Every land belongs to God. But they cannot come to this conclusion because they are godless, without any God consciousness. Actually, that's a fact. Just as the America, two hundred years ago, this land did not belong to the Americans. It was there already. So to whom it belonged? Similarly, everything... This is the statement of the Vedas: isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. If we accept this, if the United Nations makes this resolution, that "From this date, let us dissolve this so-called nationality, accept this whole planet belonging to us, all the human beings, all the animals, all the birds, beasts, trees, as they are on this planet," if we accept this philosophy, there is no question of chaotic condition of the society. Actually, that is the fact. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that whatever there is, property, on the land, on the sky, or on the water, anywhere, everything belongs to God. This is, some way or other, communistic idea, but it is spiritual communistic idea. The Communists, they are making their center as the state. The Bhagavata makes the center as God. Everything belongs to God. The Communist says that everything belongs to the state, and the Bhagavata says everything belongs to God. So from the idea, this is very nice idea. Now we are... Krsna claims in the Bhagavad-gita that "All the species of life, they are My sons. I am the seed-giving father." So the property is belonging to God, the supreme father, and we are the sons of God. Not only human being. Krsna says, sarva-yonisu: "All species of life." Therefore God has provided for everyone's sufficient necessities of life. For example, just like we are human beings, only 400,000's of species. But other species, they're eight million. Eighty hundred thousand species. In Africa, there are millions of elephants. They eat, at a time, fifty kilograms. Kg. What is that Kg?

Devotees: Kilos.

Prabhupada: Kilos. But they are also eating. There is no scarcity of food for them. So it is a fact that eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. But because we don't believe in God, we manufacture our own ideas; therefore we create simply chaotic condition.

So according to Bhagavad-gita, as we are preaching, we are also opening centers, self-help center. In New Vrindaban, West Virginia, we have already opened a very big community center. We are going to open in California also, and we have already opened in India also, that we occupy a certain tract of land, we produce our own food, we keep our cows and take their milk, and there is no scarcity. Everything, there are. We don't require to go outside the land for our livelihood. So we are advising, we are making centers like that, that "Be self-sufficient. Save time for spiritual culture." That is human civilization. This was advised some thousands of years ago by Rsabhadeva. I will recite some verses. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is stated in the Fifth Chapter of the Fifth Canto. It is said, Rsabha uvaca. Rsabhadeva was a, the emperor of this world. He was advising his sons. So he said,

nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke
kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye
tato tapo divyam putraka yena sattvam
suddhyed yasmad brahma-saukhyam anantam
[SB 5.5.1]

This is the instruction of Rsabhadeva to his sons. "My dear sons, this human form of body, ayam deha, this body, na, not..." Na ayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke. Everyone has got a body. The cats and dogs, they are also possessing a body, and the human being also possessing a body. So what is the difference between the cats and dogs and human society? So Rsabhadeva says, ayam deha-bhajam nrlo..., kastan kaman na arhati yad vid-bhujam. To accept too much labor for the necessities of life, kaman... Kaman means the necessities of life. This life, this human form of life, is not meant for that. It is meant for vid-bhujam, the hogs and dogs. They are... The hog is whole day working to find out "Where is stool? Where is stool?" The human life should not be like that. Human life should be very peaceful and prosperous and save time for spiritual culture. That is stated here. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1], for tapasya, tapasya, voluntarily accepting renouncement. This is human life. That is our Vedic principle, compulsory sannyasa. There are varnasrama-dharma. So student life, brahmacari; then married life, grhastha; then vanaprastha; then sannyasa. That is tapasya. The brahmacari is also trained up for austerity and penances. That is brahmacari. The grhastha also... Because from brahmacari life, they go to grhastha life, they are trained up in tapasya. Then again, at the age of fiftieth year, they give up the family life, they take vanaprastha. Only the husband and wife go out of home and travels all over the holy places. Then, when one is little trained up, he sends back his wife to the care of his grown-up children, and he takes sannyasa. This is varnasrama-dharma. The so-called Hindu dharma, that is a gift of the Muhammadans. We don't find the word "Hindu" in any Vedic scripture. This "Hindu" word has come from the Muhammadan countries. They used to say the people of this part of the world, means, across the river Indus, they call "Hindas" or "Hindus." So actually, Hindu not..., that is not Hindu dharma. Our... From the Vedic literature, we understand the varnasrama-dharma, varnasrama: four varnas and four asramas. Varnasramacaravata. In the Visnu-Purana, you'll find this word. In the Bhagavad-gita, you'll find. In the Bhagavata you'll find. So really Indian civilization or Aryan civilization, Vedic civlization, means varnasrama-dharma.

varnasramacaravata
purusenaparah puman
visnur aradhyate pumsam
nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

So this human form of life, here, according to the instruction of Rsabhadeva, is not meant for working hard simply for eating, sleeping, mating and defending. This is not human form of life. This is condemned in the sastras. Human form, the civilization means they should mold the form of the society in such a way that easily we can live and save time for spiritual culture. Therefore it is said, tapo divyam putraka [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya, the spiritual culture, is necessary. Divyam. Tapasya. Tapasya means... There are so many scholars. They also undergo tapasya for finding out, discovering... Just like we have now discovered this atomic energy. That is also tapasya. Or something wonderful, discovery, that also, tapasya. But here it is said, tapo divyam: "Undergo tapasya, austerity, penances, for transcendental realization." Divyam. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. So we should undergo tapasya, penance, austerity, for transcendental realization. Divyam. Tapo divyam putraka: [SB 5.5.1] "My dear boys, this life, human form of life, is not meant for working so hard like hogs and dogs. This life is meant for tapasya, and for transcendental realization." Tapo divyam putraka yena sattvam suddhyet. Sattva means existence. We exist, but this existence is not pure. Therefore we have to accept birth and death, old age and disease. This is not pure. Actually, we are living entities. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. The living entity never takes birth, neither dies. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire: [Bg. 2.20] "This body being destroyed, the living entity is not destroyed." So as eternal part and parcel of the Supreme Lord... The Supreme Lord is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], eternal, full of bliss, and knowledge. But we have got this body, material body, which is full of ignorance, full of miseries and neither... It is only temporary. This is our position. Therefore tapasya should be executed, how we can also revive our original constitutional position, sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. This is called suddhyet sattva. Just like when a man becomes diseased, it is his duty to go to the physician, consult him, take some medicine to get out of the disease, similarly, human life is meant for to get out of this disease. What is that disease? Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9].

So there are so many nice things. And they are very, very beneficial for the human life. If we do not utilize the already information we have got in the Vedic literatures, so then this temporary program to save us, that will not solve the problem. It will never solve. The problems will be more intricate day by day, and it is stated in the Bhagavata, that some day will come when there will be no food grains, no sugar, no milk, and no fruits, that these things will not be available. So these, they are all acting under the direction of the Supreme Lord. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. Prakrti, this material nature... In the Bhagavad-gita... It is working under the direction of the Supreme Lord. It is not blind. So there is some direction. It is very simple to understand. Just like my bodily activities are being carried under my direction. So similarly, the huge cosmic body, there is also a director. But we have no information. Or we have information, but we don't take, utilize it. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So they are simply seeing the wonderful activities of the material nature, but behind this material nature there is the direction of the Supreme Lord. So we have to study all this information and utilize for the social benefit. Then everything will be adjusted. If we simply become disturbed by the external symptoms, it is not possible to make them solved. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot make solution of the stringent laws of material nature. It will go on. Just like the fire. If you touch fire, it will burn your finger. It will not consider that... Even if you are a child, if you touch fire... The material laws are very stringent. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. So our only request is: Those who are working in the United Nations in so many different departmental situations, if they will take advantage of this great cultural book, Bhagavad-gita, and try to study and, if possible, to implement in social life -- everything is there -- then people will be happy, and there will be no problem, and the chaotic condition will not exist.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Guru-gauranga: So as this was a colloquium, I hope you may have some questions you would like to ask. Vedic knowledge touches on everything from art, literature, science, technology, and overpopulation has already been discussed five thousand years ago in Srimad-Bhagavatam. So we hope we can share this knowledge with you. If you have some questions, His Divine Grace would be disposed to answer.

Guest (1) (Indian man): Swamiji, nobody will disagree with you that taking the world's population at its present level, and also the production at its present level, one can see that the distribution is very uneven. And it is also true, just leaving aside the predictions, the pessimistic predictions of demographers as to what will be the human population five hundred years from now or in the year 2,300 or whatever it is, but also leaving aside the deterioration of the environment as a result of wrong technologies that have begun here (?), it is true that, as you said, there is lot of scope of additional sources, food production and other resources if it is evenly distributed over the existing populations. Yet the fact remains that there are areas of the world where people are living in luxury, and they are guarding their rights, territorial ones, as you rightly said, national...

Prabhupada: Yes. So-called nationalism.

Guest (1): ...and on the other hand, there are river valleys overpopulated in certain parts of the world where people are living in misery. They are willing to work and they are willing to contribute their talent to the world in whatever way they can, and yet they have no opportunity.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): Now, the problem is, eventually, of course, if we agree as you said, that everything belongs to God... And this idea is also, as you pointed out, in the, in the Bhagavad-gita, but also in the Bible, they say, "The earth is the Lord's." And in the Koran also it is said that Al addha lila, which means the same thing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): The idea has been there for thousands of years, but the question is, until this idea is accepted and put into practice the way you said, what is to be done in the interim period? Because lot of people are dying in misery and...

Prabhupada: Now, one thing is that...

Guest (1):. You see. What is the solution?

Prabhupada: The solution is that... As soon as there is problem and you want solution... Suppose there is some problem in legal affairs. So you go to lawyer. When there is problems of your health, you go to the physician. Similarly, our Vedic instruction is for solution of this all chaotic condition, one should... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigaccet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. You have to approach persons who can make the solution. So that is, that is the injunction, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigaccet. Who is guru? Guru means srotriyam, who knows all the Vedic literature, the information. Srotriyam. And brahma-nistham. Brahma-nistham means completely God conscious. These are two qualifications. Those who are claiming that "I am God," cheating people, they are not gurus. Guru means he's always... Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya **. That is the definition of guru. Guru is accepted as good as God, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih, in all Vedic literature, tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih, and those who are learned, advanced, they accept it. But what is the position of guru? Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya: "Guru is the most confidential servant of God." That is his position. So people do not come to us, but we are going, canvassing. This is the position. Solution is there, but they do not come to us for solution. We are going door to door, all over the world, that "Here is the solution, sir. Here is the solution." But if they do not take, what can I do? This is our position. The solution is there. And we are canvassing that "Please take this solution." But they'll not take it. They'll not hear us. They'll hold big, big conference and talk all nonsense, and that's all. This is their business. And make the things more complicated. That's all.

Guest (1): Yes. Do you have any suggestions for...?

Prabhupada: Suggestion is already I have given, that utilize this land for cultivation. I have seen so much land vacant. In Austria, Australia. Eh? Yes, Australia, and special... In U.S.A. also, there are so much land vacant. They're not utilizing... Whatever production, they... Sometimes they throw it in the water. And, I, I have heard in this Geneva, that there was excess of milk production. Therefore they want to kill twenty-thousand cows to reduce the milk production. This is their brain. Actually, there is no brain. So they, for brain, they should come to these sastras. They should take guidance. Produce. Produce, utilize. But they'll not utilize. Rather, the limited number of people... At least in India, all the villagers, they have been drawn in the city for producing bolts and nuts. Now eat bolts and nuts. So, so Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi's program was that, village organization. And our big Pandit topsy-turvied everything. So Gandhi's program was very nice, to organize a... [break] ...and produce your own food. If you work only three months, you get the whole year's provision. Whole year's provision. The balance time, you save. Chant Hare Krsna. This is our movement. And be spiritually advanced. Be human being. Otherwise, it is risky. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. After all, we have to change this body; however big plan we may make, we have to give up this plan, and we have to change this body. But there is no guarantee what kind of body we are going to get. Suppose I, this time, this life, I am very busy for constructing a big skyscraper building, and next time, next life, if I get the body of a cat or dog, so I'll have to live in that house because I have got attraction as a cat and dog, and who will care for me? So these are the facts. Because nobody can change the nature's law. Nature's law is exactly like infectious disease. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. They do not even believe that there is life after death. I talked, in Moscow, a big professor, Kotovsky. He said, "Swamiji, after death there is nothing." You... He's a big professor. He has no knowledge of the soul. And he's a big professor. Just see. This is going on.

So as far as possible... Now, as gradually this godless civilization will go on -- that is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavata -- there will be problems. Anavrsti. Anavrsti: there will be no rain. And durbhiksa. As there will be anavrsti, no sufficient rain, there will be no sufficient production. Actually, these things are already begun. Anavrsti. And on the other side, taxation, the government taxation. In this way, people will be so much disturbed that they will give up their hearth and home and go to the forest. Acchinna-dara-dravinam gacchanti giri-kananam. They will be so much harassed because there will be no... There will be scarcity of rainfall, there will be scarcity of food, and there will be taxation. Then how one can keep the brain equilibrium? He will be mad. So unless we take the instruction of the sastras... Immediately, we should take this instruction of Bhagavad-gita, annad bhavanti bhutani parjanyad anna-sambhavam, yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg. 3.14]. Therefore we have introduced this Hare Krsna Movement. This is yajna. In the Kali-yuga, this yajna is possible. So if all over the world... Or make an experiment in some portion. Just go. Just like we are making samples in West Virginia. They are self-sufficient. And the saved time is being utilized for Krsna consciousness. This is the remedy. But they'll not take this remedy. They have got their own remedy. So a few men may be happy, so-called happy. The other day, I saw in Calcutta Mr. Kanunga. He's the son of late governor of Gujarat. So he said... He's the manager of that coal distribution, government... So he said that "Now, being government concerned, the laborers, they're not working. They're sitting idly. So we have to increase the price. Cost is..." So this is the problem. People, being godless, they are dishonest, they are not working honestly and so many things. The only remedy is that people should be taught to become God conscious. And this method is very simple: chant Hare Krsna. Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam, kalau nasty eva... [Cc. Adi 17.21]. And samples are there, these European and American boys. They were addicted to so many bad habits. Now they are... Just see how sober they are, and they're chanting Hare Krsna. So everything is possible, provided you people take our instruction. Otherwise, there is no other remedy. What can be done? The remedy's there. The medicine is also there. But if you don't take the medicine, how the disease will be cured?

Guest (2) (Indian man): I would ask the respected swamiji, you referred to the departure of the villagers to the city and getting in that city life and the villagers(?) become factory and all workers the evils which follow. And you suggested as a solution that if you live in the villages and work only for three months, then you'll have food to eat. But I'd like to point out that there is such a vast amount of unemployment in our villages in India. The vast populations are there doomed,(?) and despite all these settlements, (indistinct) are not able to make enough food because they don't own the land and they are not... They are unemployed. And that's why they go into the cities. It is not necessarily the good life in the city which attracts them, but they don't own the land. The land is owned by other people, and they are not free to live in the village as free men and grow enough food for them. Now this is a question of the means of owning of the means of production. And we still have the zamindar system. We still have the system, and the rich people are exploiting. They do. Unless there is some kind of a revolution by which you can curb the power of the landlord, how can you be for land distribution(?) of the village, of those who live in the village, and not go to city to pull a rickshaw or do other labor to...?

Prabhupada: (aside:) You can come in. Thing is that it is the government's duty to see that nobody's unemployed. That is good government. That is the Vedic system. The society was divided into four divisions: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. And it was the duty of the government or the king to see the brahmana is doing brahmana's duty, and the ksatriya's duty, uh, ksatriya... His duty is the ksatriya's duty. Similarly, vaisya... So it is the government's duty to see that why people are unemployed. Then the question will be solved.

Guest (2): But they are the people who are also in the government.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): They are also... The entrenched(?) people, the monied people, landowners, they also have a strong voice in the government.

Prabhupada: No. That, that means bad government.

Guest (2): Yes. That is, that is true.

Prabhupada: That is bad government. Otherwise, it is the duty of the government to see that everyone is employed.

Guest (2): That's what I am looking forward to, the day when the Krsna consciousness movement can become a real revolutionary movement which will change the face of society.

Prabhupada: Yes. I think it will bring revolution because the American and European young men, they have taken into hand. I have introduced to them. So I hope the European and American boys, they're very intelligent, and they take anything very seriously. So that... Now we are working for a few years, five, six years. Still, we have spread the movement all over the world. So I am requesting... I am old man. I will die. If they take it seriously, it will go on, and there will be revolution. Because we are not working whimsically, capriciously. We are taking authoritative version from the sastra. And we are... Our program is to publish at least one hundred books of this size. There are so many information. They can read all these books and take information. And we are now being received. In America especially, the higher circle, in colleges and universities, they are reading now these books, and they are appreciating. So we are trying our best, introducing the literature, practically working, instructing, as far as possible. But I think if the, these boys, young boys, take it very seriously, it will bring revolution.

Guest (2): Is there a center in Geneva where this literature...?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Give...

Guru-gauranga: We have a center in Petit-lancy, neuf(?) de Credo, with daily program, philosophy, classes, kirtana, and general training.

Prabhupada: You have not any literature having the address?

Guru-gauranga: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Give them.

Guru-gauranga: This is our monthly magazine which we publish in French language, and this is a presentation book which shows the scope of our activities in the world. Our center is open, admission is free. There is no cost or pain to come, and if you only learn one thing, where is the question of loss? Krsna consciousness means that everyone can win something for the benefit of everyone else.

Guest (3) (Indian man): There is one thing, Swamiji, if I may, which I cannot reconcile. As an Indian, the question bothers me very, very often. I believe in a great many things which you say. There's no question about that. I'm not a Westernized Indian. But what I cannot reconcile is the fact that we who had this Vedic knowledge and all the things which you have just now said is the solution to all our problems, with all this knowledge, we have not been able to keep our society free from so many evils to come... I'm not only referring to the poverty, but to the other things...

Prabhupada: No. It is due to bad leaders. It is due to bad leaders.

Guest (3): They are our own people. They...

Prabhupada: They may be own, your father. Just like Prahlada's father was Hiranyakasipu, a demon. So what can be done? Prahlada was a devotee, and his father was a demon.

Guest (3): Yes. He has to be destroyed.

Prabhupada: So he was destroyed. He'll be destroyed. They are being destroyed. These demonic leaders will not stay. They'll be destroyed. But everything takes some time. Just like I told you that Gandhi, he understood the pulse of the country. He wanted to reorganize the villages, but our big Panditaji topsy-turvied everything.

Guest (3): Yeah, and we killed him.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (3): That was the first thing.

Prabhupada: And we killed him, Gandhi. Yes. So this is... Murkhayopadeso hi prakopaya na santaye. If a murkha is advised to do something, he becomes angry. Payah-panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. So at the present moment, our Indian leaders are not very good. Blind. They have no knowledge, and they are leading. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. They have killed our original Vedic culture, and they cannot give anything. Gandhi wanted to give something, but he was also killed. What can be done?

Yogesvara: I can show them our book, Moscow Talks.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Yogesvara: We have the Moscow Talks book here, your conversation with Professor Kotovsky.

Guru-gauranga: You may see that in this presentation book we have a center in Mayapur, in Navadvipa, in West Bengal. We are distributing Krsna-prasada. There is no problem.

Prabhupada: Yes. In all our centers, we distribute prasadam. Anyone who may come, "Take prasadam."

Guest (4) (Indian man): Has the movement involved itself in social philosophy, then? Because sometimes I'm sure you, if you propagate your good will, the moral path...

Prabhupada: Yes. We are spreading the best moral principle, Krsna consciousness.

Guest (4): But don't you come... (sound of jet drowns out) ...who don't like you? Does it not mean a bit of problem?

Prabhupada: We are getting a better response from the Western countries than in India. In India, we see that the leaders, they do not like it. They are now opening beef shop, wine shop, and we are preaching "No intoxication, no meat-eating." So actually, we are not very favorable to their propaganda. (laughs) They don't like us, the leaders. Now there are big, big signboards. In Juhu we have got a center, and the government has opened beef shop, very big. And wine shop, you'll find everywhere. And we are preaching, "No intoxication, no meat-eating." So how they'll like us? That is the difficulty. "It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss." But still, we are struggling.

Guru-gauranga: The value of this movement is that if we can prove on a small level, on a model level, that it works, then any scientific man... This is the empirical method. If it works on a small level, it shall work on a large level.

Guest (5) (Indian man): Yeah, like what?

Guru-gauranga: Well, for example, Isaac Newton discovered gravity. That discovery was a universal discovery. It was an axiom. If it works here, it will work anywhere.

Guest (5): No. That I understand. But I mean in regard to your own work, can you give an example of something having worked that..., whatever you mean by work?

Guru-gauranga: Yes. Cultivating the land, for example. We have communities. New Vrindaban, in West Virginia; California. We are establishing in France. We can absorb as many people as wish to come, and we can feed them all, and we still have surplus in foodstuffs.

Prabhupada: Yes. In Virginia, it has proved very successful. We are getting eighty pounds of milk daily. And from that milk...

Pusta-krsna: Eight hundred.

Prabhupada: Eh? Eight hundred. Yes. Eight hundred, I am sorry. So that milk product is sufficient for give them nutritious food. We are preparing ghee. Just like in India, they utilize milk so nicely. And vegetables we are growing. They are making sweetmeats, sandesa, rasagulla. There is enough milk product. And ghee, luci, puri. They are satisfied. So that is the basic principle.

Guest (5): This is just an example of a successful corporative enterprise which is... But would you speak something new which has not been tried before?

Prabhupada: No. The new thing is that they do not go outside for bread. That is the new thing. Here, at the present moment, in every big, big city, they are coming from hundred miles to the office. Now there was railway strike in Bombay. I was there at that time. Oh, people are suffering so much. You see? From five o'clock in the morning, they are standing in queue for catching one... Not bus, it is truck. The buses on strike. So people are so much in difficulty. And if one train or two train was running, so many people smashed the... They were on the top of the train. So the problem is why one should be induced to go hundred miles off from his home for earning his livelihood? This is a very bad civilization. One must have his food locally. That is good civilization.

Guest (5): Yeah. What do these people do for a living? Only grow food?

Prabhupada: No. Grow food for eating, and then they read all these books. They become spiritually advanced. That's all. Deity worship.

Guest (5): And did you need money?

Prabhupada: Well, we get money. We sell these books also. If they require money, there is money also. But we live very simple life. Whatever little necessity of money is there, that we can gather by selling these books. Even in Indian parliament, the question was raised, "Wherefrom this ISKCON movement gets their money?" Some Communist member raised this question. And the home member replied, "They get money by selling literature." That's a fact.

Guest (6) (European man): I would like to ask also a question. In your rural communities... I call them rural because from what you said, the main purpose is to be self-supporting as regards food. In your rural communities, do you utilize the most modern techniques with fertilizers, with mechanical means for cultivating land? This is one question. The other is that obviously, from what you say, the necessary money for buying anything else, that is provided by the selling of your books. Of course, if you would imagine communities having not, as you have, something which (indistinct), and therefore books which can be sold, such communities would not be eased to be self-supporting in regards to everything. Food is also there. And if, by any chance, would your system...? Supposing we could transform all the members of the Swiss community into peasants, having their piece of land and living in rural communities, I suppose from what I know that many would starve and would have not sufficiently to eat because conditions here, conditions of climate, etc., are not of the same category of the ones which may exist in Asia or in other countries. The basic problem is that in former centuries most of the male population of that country which population was mainly composed of peasants had to expatriate and become soldiers abroad because there was not enough food. So what do you say about these things?

Yogesvara: His first question was do we use machines and modern methods on our asramas and farms.

Prabhupada: We have no objection. We want to be self-sufficient. That is our point of view. We have no objection with... It is not that we don't touch machine. We don't say like that. But we want to be self-sufficient. That is our point. We have not taken a vow that we shall not touch any machine. No, no. We're not like that.

Guest (6): Well, I think it's an admirable objective. Certainly it can be realized in small rural communities which acquire the necessary surface to have each member in the community to be self-sufficient. Like in the Middle Ages in this country the monks were more or less self-sufficient within the frame of their land. But outside this, the peasants were really always hungry.

Guru-gauranga: He says that on a small level that may be valid like the monks who have their monastery and they made food enough, but for most people, especially where the climate is so unfavorable... He said that the Swiss people, they could not even stay on the land in the past, but they had to go away to find food because of the climate. So on the whole he does not see the practicality.

Prabhupada: Well, after all, this is material world. The miserable conditions are there. But as far as possible, try to minimize. Our only aim is how to save time for spiritual cultivation. That is our main aim. So we have to find out the opportunity according to the time, circumstances. We, we do not reject anything. Whatever is favorable, we accept.

Yogesvara: So, in other words, the absolute platform that you were speaking of where everyone would be engaged in that kind of rural cultivation of the ground isn't any kind of long term goal for us necessarily. We have our small communities, and then there's also activity going on in other areas as well. But the idea in our spiritual master's describing, as far as possible we utilize every opportunity for advancing in spiritual life, whether it be by cultivating the ground or whatever occupational duty we may have to perform.

Guest (6): But I understand that your goal is to have everybody becoming self-supporting in regards to food. But if everyone who is engaged in food production, who will be providing other things?

Yogesvara: He thinks that we have been saying that ultimately we'd like everyone to be engaged in food production. Is that our...?
Prabhupada: No. We don't say that. According to the Bhagavad-gita, the..., there is a section of men who will produce food, there is a section of men who will be spiritually elevated, and there will be section of men who will manage as the government or the king, and the balance men, they're all sudras. They'll help these three men. This is Bhagavad-gita. Not that everyone will be cultivator. No. There must be management, and there must be brain also, and there must be worker also. This should be... This is natural division. But all should combine together for spiritual cultivation. Just like we have got our brain, our arms, our belly, our legs. They're all required. We cannot reject the legs and keep only hands. That is not possible. But the hands, leg, brain and belly should combine together to keep the body healthy. That is the aim. So we shall now go?

Guru-gauranga: So if there are no other question, I guess we can take leave of each other and thank you very much.

Yogesvara: Kirtana?

Prabhupada: Yes, have sankirtana.

Guru-gauranga: There is more prasada. We have brought this for you. So we hope you'll take. You can... (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Lecture at World Health Organization -- Geneva, June 6, 1974