The Psychology of Chastity

73/07/28 London, Bhagavad-gita 1.40

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Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):

adharmabhibhavat krsna
pradusyanti kula-striyah
strisu dustasu varsneya
jayate varna-sankarah
 [Bg. 1.40]

"When irreligion is prominent in the family, O Krsna, the women of the family become corrupt, and from the degradation of womanhood, O descendant of Vrsni, comes unwanted progeny."

Prabhupada: This is very important point. For good population. Without good population in the society, gentlemen, cultured, educated, following the rules and regulations of religious principles, how you can expect peace and prosperity? That is not possible. So the whole Vedic system was meant for having very good population. Not such kind of population who are addicted to killing and drinking and so many other sinful activities. No. Then you cannot check. If such population is there, then everything will be polluted. Especially nowadays, because there is want of good population, and they go in the government, and how you can expect good government, good administration? The whole population is polluted. Therefore even such a great state, U.S.A., the president is being tried and he's being criticized.

So there must be good population. So to have good population, the women should be very chaste. That is the basic principle of Vedic civilization. And to keep the women chaste, it was the function of the responsible father, or, in the absence of father, the elder brother... So he must get the woman, the girl, married. It is compulsory. There was no compulsory for man to marry. Because a man may remain brahmacari. By training, he can abstain from sex. But if woman is not protected very strictly, it is very difficult. It is very difficult. We are discussing sastra. Don't think otherwise. Canakya Pandita says: visvasam naiva kartavyam strisu raja-kulesu ca. Visvasam naiva kartavyam. "Don't trust women." Visvasam naiva kartavyam strisu. Strisu means women. Raja-kula... And politicians. Yes. Visvasam naiva kartavyam strisu raja-kulesu ca. Never the trust the politician and woman. Of course, when woman comes to Krsna consciousness, that position is different. We are speaking of ordinary woman. Because Krsna says, in another place, striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah. They are considered, women, vaisya, the mercantile community, and sudra, and the worker class, they are less intelligent. Papa-yoni. When the progeny is defective, then they become less intelligent.

So Krsna says:

mam hi partha vyapasritya
ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah
striyo vaisyas tatha sudras
te 'pi yanti param gatih
 [Bg. 9.32]

Even papa-yoni, degraded birth, even women, sudra and vaisya, they also can become fully Krsna conscious by training. And they can also go back to home, back to Godhead, without any check.

So when we study things from material point of view, these things are to be taken care. But when a man or woman becomes Krsna conscious, he or she takes care of herself or himself. So it is spoken... Arjuna is speaking of ordinary woman. Strisu dustasu. Just like adharma-abhibhava. Adharma. If the woman is trained, a girl is trained from the very beginning that: "You should remain chaste," that is dharma. It is called Satita dharma. Sati means chastity. There are many stories of Sati, chaste woman. Nala-damayanti. His husband became so poverty-stricken. He was king, but he became later on so poverty-stricken that he had no sufficient cloth. The husband and wife was putting on the same cloth, half and half. So still, still there was no divorce. You see. Still the woman did not consider... She was also king's daughter. But the husband has fallen down to so much poverty-stricken condition. "So why shall I live with him?" These are some of the extreme examples of chastity. Not to speak of olden days, I have seen in Bombay, in 1935 or '34, on the roadside, there was a beggar. The beggar, the face was defaced. Might be some accident. His eyes and everything became defaced. He could not see, everything became useless. So he, he was sitting on the roadside, and his wife also, also sitting. But I saw that beggar was neat and clean. The wife was also neat and clean. The wife's business was that to keep the husband always neat and clean and fresh and bring him there and again take him at home. Young woman. So I could understand that the wife is so chaste. She has not left such ugly husband. Because his face was defaced. And helping him. Because they require some money. So we have seen.

There are many stories of chaste woman. Many stories. There was one disciple of Ramanujacarya, a very poor. So Ramanujacarya came in that poor disciple's house and he saw there was no one in the house. So he thought: "What is this? This is my disciple's house. He's family man. Why there is none?" That means he could understand that the door is not locked. Door was closed only. Then he could understand that within the door his wife is there. Therefore he knocked the door, and there was response also, knocking, but she could not come out. That means she, she was so poor that she had no garment. She was keeping herself within the room, naked. So Ramanujacarya could understand that "There is his wife. Maybe she has no sufficient clothing." So immediately, his own cloth he gave her, within the room, and the woman came out, putting on that... And then offered obeisances. So he could understand the position. They were very, very poor. Even no clothing. So after putting on the cloth, she went to the grocer's shop. Because Ramanujacarya is there. She must receive. Grocer shop. The grocer knew that this woman is very woman, uh, very poor, so his business was to entice her. But she never agreed, although she was young. Now this woman went to the grocer's shop that: "You know that I am very poor. I require immediately some grains, ghee, and other things. My Guru Maharaja has come at home. I must receive. So tonight I agree with your proposal. Please give me. Even at the sacrifice of my chastity I want this." So the grocer was very glad. "Oh, this woman, I have canvassed her, I have tried to induce her. She never agreed. And now she's agreeing." So: "All right, you take, whatever you like. Take." So she was given all kinds of food grains, as much as she wanted. And she cooked and gave to the spiritual master and his associates, his servants. Everything was very nice. In the meantime, the husband came, working whole day. And he saw that everything was nicely done. "Guru Maharaja is fed, and his associates, they're fed." So he asked his wife: "How did you get all these things?" Then she narrated the whole story. Then husband also said: "Yes, you have promised. All right. Take some prasadam and go to him. Because you have promised to meet him this evening. So go." Then the grocer heard the whole story and his mind became changed. "Oh, such a chaste woman. Such a faithful... You are my mother. You take more ingredients, grains, as much as you like, you shall..."

So there are still. That is not very long ago. So this was the training. And the psychology is that woman, the first man she meets and if she is kept carefully, she becomes staunch lover. This is psychology. There is good psychology in maintaining the society. Therefore a woman, especially in India, especially in Bengal, before attaining puberty, she was married. Not to meet the husband unless she attains puberty. But she remained at father's house, but she must know that: "I am married. I have got husband." This psychology. Then she becomes very chaste. Because she thinks of her husband, and becomes more and more devoted. So this arrangement that woman must be married before puberty... Or even after puberty, she must get a husband. So if this dharma... It is called kanya-daya, kanya-daya. Kanya-daya means it is very obligatory that the father must get the daughter married. This is dharma. So if this dharma, or this religious principle is violated, that is... Arjuna is marking: adharma-abhi, abhi-bhava. When people become neglectful of the family tradition and religious principles, adharma abhibhavat krsna pradusyanti kula-striyah. Kula-striyah. Kula-striyah means... Kula means family, and striyah means woman. So woman must be belonging to a respectable family. Therefore it is said: kula-striyah. Not society-girls. Kula-striyah. Of the family. We have got experience in our school, college days. I was sitting in a friend's house and one sweeper woman, sweeper, with broomstick and with, what is called, covering?

Devotee: Shawl.

Prabhupada: She was standing, say, about twenty yards distant from our sitting place. So I asked my friend that: "Your, this sweeper woman wants to come in. She's waiting because we are sitting. She is ashamed to come. So let us come here." So we stood separately. That means although she was a sweeper woman, still we had to honor her to enter. We stood up separately. She was feeling that; "How can I go between two men?" This we have seen in our... So this is Vedic culture. Woman should not be allowed to mix with man. Not allowed. In Japan also, the same system. Before marriage, they can mix. But after marriage they cannot mix. In Japan also I have seen. But in India still the system is there. Woman, without husband, cannot talk with any man. That is also psychological. In the Bhagavata it is stated that man is like ghee, butterpot, and woman is like fire. Therefore, as they, as soon as there is fire and butter pot, the butter pot must melt. Therefore they should be kept aside. These are the statements. And the sastra says that in a solitary place you should not remain even with your daughter, even with your sister, even with your mother.

matr-svasra-duhitravan
na viviktah sanevaset
balavan indriya-gramo
vidvams api karsati

Either your mother or sister, or daughter. No, nobody becomes lusty with mother or sister or daughter. But sastra says: "Even your mother or sister or daughter, you should not live in a solitary place." Then one may question that "How it is possible?" No. The sastra says: balavan indriya-gramah. The senses are so strong that it becomes polluted. "Now it may be, some rascal fools may be polluted like that." No. Sastra... Vidvams api karsati. Even the most learned, he can be polluted. So sometimes in India, I am criticized that I keep women and men in the same temple. In India, that is not allowed. No women can live at night. They can come and go. But I defend myself that this is the system of the country, the women and men, they intermingle. How can I check it? Then the women, shall I not give them any chance for chanting Hare Krsna? No, I shall do this chance, I shall give this chance to woman even at the risk. That is my reply.

So therefore chastity is very, very important thing for producing good population, nice population. So unless the population is good... If the population becomes hippies, then how there can be any peace and prosperity? Therefore, to produce children, there is samskara. First samskara is Garbhadhana samskara. This is called kula-dharma. Garbhadhana samskara means when, especially the high caste, brahmana, ksatriya especially...Not sudra. Sudra has no samskara. Only the higher class, brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya. Vaisya also sometimes no samskara. But brahmana, ksatriya must have samskara. Dasa-vidha samskarah. Ten kinds of samskara. One of the samskara... Samskara means purificatory method. One of the samskara is also marriage. One must get married. So, before the child is given birth, there is a samskara, what is called? Garbhadhana samskara. It is not that the husband and wife mix without any restriction and have sex life at any time. No. You know that, that mother of Hiranyakasipu, Kasyapa Muni, I think, father. So she, the woman became very much sexually excited and the husband replied that: "This is not time. This is very bad time, evening. Why you are insisting?" But she was too much lusty, and because the husband was obliged, Hiranyakasipu was born, a demon was born. Therefore there is Garbhadhana samskara, to find out when the husband and wife should mix and give birth to a child. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita you'll see that sex life which is according to the principle of religious ideas, that is "I am." So sex life is not bad, provided it is executed according to the religious principles. So Garbhadhana samskara... Just, what is the idea? The idea is the child born must be first class. He'll be able to become Krsna conscious. He'll be able to understand the sastras, the Vedas. He must have the good brain. These were the ideas. But if they are not born in that way, like cats and dog, that is called varna-sankara. Varna-sankara. You cannot specify whether he's a brahmana or a ksatriya and vaisya and sudra. That is called varna-sankara. So varna-sankara population is not good. Varna-sankara. No caste. No designation, no definition to which class this man belongs.

So at the present moment, because these purificatory processes are not accepted, even in India... Accepted, they're unable. Everything has topsy-turvied. Therefore the sastra says that: "Accept everyone as sudra." Kalau sudrah sambhava. There is no more brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya. All sudras. We have to accept. Because no Vedic culture, no Garbhadhana samskara. They are born like cats and dogs. So where is this division? There cannot be. Therefore, accept them as sudra. Varna-sankara is less than sudra. So at least, sudra they should be. So there is no Vaidic diksa. For sudra, there is no diksa, there is no initiation. Initiation is meant for the persons who are born in brahmana family, ksatriya family, or vaisya family. The sudra has no initiation. So in India there are professional gurus. They initiate sudras, but do not eat foodstuff touched by the disciple. So there are so many things, that if he's initiated, how he can remain sudra? But they keep him sudra; at the same time, they become guru. Sanatana Gosvami gives direction in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that: tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam. If properly initiated, he becomes immediately brahmana. Dvijatvam. Dvija means second birth. Yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah. There is a chemical process that kamsya, bell metal, can be turned into gold by mixing with proportionately mercury. Now here is a hint of chemistry. If anyone can prepare gold... But it is very difficult to mix mercury. As soon as there is little heat, immediately the mercury's finished. So there is a process. Everything has process. Many yogis know how to make gold from copper. Actually, chemically, copper, tin and mercury, if you mix proportionately, it will be gold. So Sanatana Gosvami gives this example. As the copper and tin, these two metals, mixed with mercury, there can be production of gold, similarly, by proper initiation, by the proper spiritual master, one sudra, even though he's a sudra, less than sudra, varna-sankara, or candala, he can become dvija, brahmana. So our process is to make dvija. Pancaratriki vidhi. Pancaratriki vidhi. That is recommended.

sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratriki vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate
 [Brs. 1.2.101]

Rupa Gosvami gives this direction that the initiation must be done according to sruti, smrti or pancaratriki vidhi. There is nyaya-prasthana, sruti-prasthana and smrti-prasthana. To make spiritual progress in three ways: by the Vedanta philosophy, or Vedic ways, or according to Smrti. Smrti means authorized books written in accordance to the Sruti. Sruti smrti. Just like Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita is not directly Vedas, but the all the stanzas of Bhagavad-gita, they're strictly according to the Nyaya-prasthana and Sruti-prasthana. So any book which is strictly written according to the Vedas and Vedantas, that is also accepted as Vedic literature. So Pancaratriki vidhi means that it doesn't matter whether man is sudra or candala... Candala means less than sudra. Pancama The fifth grade. First class, brahmana; second class, ksatriya; third class, vasya; fourth class, sudra; and below this fourth class, they're all candalas. Candalas means pancama. Untouchable. They are called untouchable. So even the untouchables... Because Krsna has said: Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. The papa-yoni, candala means papa-yoni, born of low-grade family... The Bhagavata says, Sukadeva Gosvami says, that: Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavana khasadayah. Yavana, mlecca yavana. They, they are called... They are also counted amongst the candalas. Ye 'nye ca papah, even lower than that. Ye 'nye ca papah suddhyanti. They becomes purified. How? Prabhavisnave namah. When they are initiated to become Krsna conscious. So if a, one may argue, "How it is possible to make a candala a Vaisnava?" No, that is possible. Prabhavisnave namah. Visnu is so powerful, omnipotent. He can do that. So only by Visnu mantra, by becoming a Vaisnava, one can transcend all this restriction, sociology. They can be. That is confirmed by Krsna: mam cavyabhicarini bhakti-yogena yah sevate sa gunan brahmatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Immediately he transcends. He's in the Brahman platform. One who has taken very seriously this devotional service, he's no more on this material platform. So long we are in the material platform, these distinction, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, varna-sankara, they are considered. But when one is transcendentally situated, simply in pure, unalloyed service of the Lord, he's no more in the material platform. He's in the spiritual platform. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. He's already in the Brahman platform. Brahman platform means sa gunan samatitya etan. This material platform means three modes of material nature. Sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Here, even one is brahmana... Sattva-guna means the brahminical qualification. He's also contaminated. He's conditioned by the material nature. And what to speak of sudra and varna-sankara? Everyone is conditioned by the material nature. Daivi hy esa gunamayi [Bg. 7.14]. Brahmana means to be situated, a first-class prisoner. A first-class prisoner is also prisoner. You cannot say that he's free. No, free is different from a first-class prisoner. Sometimes, any respectable gentleman, some political offense, he's put into jail. Just like Gandhi also went to jail. And so many others. But they were given the place, first-class prisoners. They got servant. They got separate bungalow and books, library, all facilities. But they cannot go out of the prison house. They are called first-class prisoners. So to become a brahmana means to becomes a first-class prisoner. That's all.

So our, our point of view is not to become a first-class prisoner. To get out of the prison. That is Vaisnava vision. You'll find... Last night I have given comments that Madhavendra Puri, he was performing the Annakuta ceremony and installing the Deity. So everything was being brahmana, done by brahmana, qualified brahmana, but Madhavendra Puri initiated them again to become Vaisnava. Then he gave them in charge of the Deity worship. So the Vaisnava functions cannot be done evey by a brahmana. Even one is qualified brahmana, he is unfit to propagate Vaisnava philosophy. That is stated in the sastras.

sat-karma-nipuno vipro
mantra-tantra-visaradah
avaisnavo gurur na syad
vaisnavah sva-paco guruh

Sva-paco means candala, who was eating dog. That is considered the lowest. There are different kinds of meat-eaters. But in India, the cow-flesh–eaters, they were none. Some of them were eating hogs, even dogs. No government will not allow to eat the cow flesh. No, that is not allowed. If you want to eat flesh, you can eat hogs and dogs, and other, goats also. But you cannot touch a cow. This is restriction. First of all, they should not be meat-eater. But if you are staunch meat-eaters, then you cannot touch cow. You can eat some other animal. So sva-pacah. Sva-pacah means the dog-eaters. In Korea, and some parts of there, they eat dogs. They, they sell dog flesh publicly. So in India also there is a class. In Asamsaye, they eat also dog. So the dog-eaters, they are considered lowest of the mankind. Sva-pacah. Sva means dog and pacah means who cooks. Sva-pacah means candala. If a man from the sva-pacah family, or the candala family, he becomes a Vaisnava, strictly according to the orders, then he can become guru, but not a brahmana if he's not a Vaisnava. This is the stricture. Even one is born in the family of a brahmana, and he's not only born, he's qualified, sat-karma-nipuno... Nipuno means qualified. Brahmana has got six kinds of occupation. He must be learned himself, he must be able to teach others Vedic literatures. That is called pathana pathana. Then he must worship... Worship means demigods. Or they consider that any demigod or God, the same, some impersonalists. So yajana, yajana. There are other also, religious ritual functions. They perform. That is called yajana. Yajana yajana. And dana pratigrha. A brahmana takes contribution. A brahmana is never engaged in service like sudra. That is sudra's business.

So these are called dharmas. There are so many departmental dharmas. So Arjuna is referring to this, that: adharma-abhibhavat krsna. When these principles are sacrificed and there is awakening of adharma, irreligious principles, then the result will be... Adharma abhibhavat krsna pradusyanti kula-striyah. Then the stricture will be withdrawn and the family women, women, they'll be polluted. And as soon as the women is polluted, strisu dustasu, the woman is polluted, varsneya, "My dear Krsna," jayate varna-sankara, "then the whole population will be varna-sankara." And the next verse will explain how varna sankara population makes this world exactly like hell. That is stated.

sankaro narakayaiva
kula-ghnanam kulasya ca
patanti pitaro hy esam
lupta-pinda-udaka kriyah

This will be explained next...So five thousand years. You just try to understand how the society was going on strictly on the Vedic principles. So now there is no such thing. Nobody is observing Vedic principles. And because the Vedic principles were strictly being followed, the whole world was one unit, controlled by these Pandavas. Even the grandson of Pandava, Maharaja Pariksit,... This is on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. Then when the battle was over, the next king was Maharaja Pariksit, grandson of Arjuna. Up to that time, everything was in order, Vedic principles. All over the world. There was no question of eating meat. The same principles were followed. No meat-eating, no illicit sex, no gambling, no intoxication. Because the king was very strong. Maharaja Pariksit, when he saw that a black man was going to kill one cow, immediately he took his sword: "Who are you? I shall kill you immediately." That was king's stricture. So the Kali was ordered to get out of his kingdom. He begged of his life: "Sir, you are going to kill me. But it is my time. I have now come, and it is my business, cow-killing. So what can I do? This is my business." So Maharaja Pariksit understood that now the Kali-yuga is coming. So it is his business. So "I am as king. How can I stop his business?" That is also another problem. One must be occupied, one must be engaged in his business. Therefore, he asked him to go to these places. Where? In the slaughterhouse, in the brothel for illicit sex, and slaughterhouse and in the drunkard den for intoxication, gambling place. So Kali was in difficulty to find out a place like that in that time. He could not find. Therefore there was conspiracy to kill the king so that Kali can enter.

So these are the principles. This is called human society. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman. In human society, visnur aradhyate, the Lord is worshiped. But ne te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnuh. At the present moment, these rascals, they do not know. Andha yathandair upaniyamanah. And the so-called leaders, they are blind, themselves, and they are trying to lead other blind men. This is the social position. Therefore there is no more hope of reviving the Vedic culture. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, ceto darpanam marjanam... The Vedic culture means to cleanse the heart and make him perfect. Brahma-bhutah, perfectly spiritualized. That is Vedic culture. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. To know the Supreme Lord. That is Vedic culture. Now everything is topsy-turvied. Therefore, by the grace of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He has simply recommended: harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Only chant. Then the result will be: ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The same result as the Vedic culture introduced will purify the heart to understand one's position. By the chanting of Hare Krsna mantra, the same position will come. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. Therefore there is no question of being depressed that: "We do not belong to this, do not belong to that." Never mind. Whatever it is. Simply chant and you'll become purified. That is Krsna consciousness movement.

Thank you very much. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 1.40 -- London, July 28, 1973

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"Know Krsna -- Get Liberation"

66/07/28 New York, Bhagavad-gita 4.11-12


Prabhupada:

ye yatha mam prapadyante
tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
mama vartmanuvartante
manusyah partha sarvasah
[Bg. 4.11]

This sloka, this verse, we discussed last Friday evening, and I tried to explain the supreme leadership of the Supreme Lord. By nature we are destined to follow a leadership. Nobody is independent. Even in the animal society, the animals, they have also got a group, and there is leader of the group. Perhaps you know it. So in every group... And we are trying to make some group according to the similarly of thought and propensities. There are association, you know, various association, mercantile association, bankers' association, lawyers' association, and there is a leader. That is the nature's way.

Now, the supreme leader is Sri Krsna. That we do not know. Supreme leader, the leadership is accepted, but we do not know that the supreme leader is the Supreme Lord, or Krsna. So that is informed in the Vedic literature, and in the Bhagavad-gita also, the same thing is confirmed, that ye yatha mam prapadyante: "Now, everyone is under My leadership, everyone. There is no exception." Especially He mentions the manusya. Manusya means the human being. The human being especially mentioned here because amongst all the human beings in this lower status of our existence, the human being is considered the highest perfectional stage of living condition. And especially human being has the prerogative to understand the supreme leadership of Sri Krsna. The animals cannot understand it, or the persons who are in the animal nature...

Just like you will find in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita. The Lord says,

na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]

"Those who are always engaged in mischievous activities, those who are fools, those who are lowest of the mankind, and those whose knowledge has been deluded by the external energy, they do not make their surrender unto the Supreme Lord." But there are other persons who are virtuous. They are considered that arto jijnasur artharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha [Bg. 7.16]. There are other persons who are distressed and in need of some wealth or inquisitive or really research worker in the field of understanding what is the Absolute Truth. And this morning we were discussing in the morning class that the person who are research scholar in the matter of understanding the nature of Krsna, transcendental nature of Krsna, he is called jnani, or philosopher, and he is accepted, with bhakti, with devotional service, he is accepted as special for the attention of the Supreme Lord.

Now, everyone... Therefore everyone is following the leadership or the representative of the leadership. Now you will find in the Bhagavad-gita. When there is some specific qualification of a person, just like political leader or some spiritual leader... Leader there must be. So suppose a political leader or religious leader is there, and thousands of people are following him. So that is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, that they are invested with certain power of Sri Krsna. Yad yad vibhutimat sattvam mama tejo 'msa-sambhavam. So everyone is following directly or indirectly the supreme leadership of Krsna. And the perfectional stage of accepting that leadership is when we accept Sri Krsna as our direct leader.

We are going to that path gradually, going to that path gradually, but in the middle, we are hampered because there is want of sufficient knowledge. When sufficient knowledge is there... You'll find in the Bhagavad-gita. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "After many, many births, when one is developed in his real consciousness, he can understand." What? What he understands? Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah: [Bg. 7.19] "That Krsna is the Supreme. He is all in all, so I have to surrender unto Him." That is the perfection of knowledge. This stage one has to reach. Never mind whether he is following a principle of philosophical research, whether he is following the yogic principle, or whether he is following philanthropic work or political leadership or... So many things are going on, but the whole thing is targeted toward Krsna. How it is targeted? That is explained. I shall try to explain.

Now, the whole material world is working under two energies: the lower energy and the higher energy. And the both of the energies, they have got different dimensions. Just like in this atomic age, you know, the material energy ends in the atomic portion, atoms, paramanu. Similarly, this is... Material energy is called lower energy, and there is another energy which is called spiritual energy. So both the energies, they are emanating from the Supreme Lord. In the Vedanta-sutra also, it is confirmed, janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "All energies, they are coming, emanating, from the Supreme." In the Bhagavad-gita also, you will find the same thing confirmed. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]: "I am the fountainhead," Lord Sri Krsna said. "I am the fountainhead of everything." So now to understand how everything is He, so two energies are working in this world in our experience. One is superior energy, or the higher energy, and the other is the inferior energy. The inferior energy is matter, and the superior or the higher energy is the spirit soul.

So as we find... You have got now... We have no experience. Scientific advancement of knowledge, so far we have in this material world, that is bounded within the area of material energy. They have not succeeded in finding out the spiritual energy. Otherwise they would have given life to the dead man. That has not been possible. Suppose a man is dead. What is that death? Death means separation of two energies: the material energy and the spiritual energy. That is death. The supreme spiritual energy and the atomic part of it, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah... [Bg. 15.7]. Just you have experience in this atomic age, the minute quantity of atomic material existence, similarly, there is spiritual atomic existence. Now, this spiritual atomic existence...

The other day I explained and several times that atom is also described in the Padma-Purana, Vedic literature. And what is the form of that spiritual energy, I mean to say atom, spiritual atom? It is ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair. You have got experience up to the upper portion of the hair. It is just a little point. Now divide it into ten thousand parts, and that one part is yourself, spiritual atom. This is our position. And that spiritual energy is so powerful that we, from that one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair... It is not manufactured.

So far what I am speaking to you, it is from authentic sastras. The original verse is that, kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca, jiva-bhagah sa vijneyah sa anantyaya kalpate [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. The exact verse is in Sanskrit that jivas, the living entities, they are ananta. Ananta means there is no limit, how many there are. Ananta, unlimited. Unlimited. And a small. Just like in the material world also, you will find unlimited atomic existence, similarly, in the spiritual also, there are unlimited spiritual atoms. And one of the atoms is myself and yourself or the ant or the elephant. Everyone is containing that atomic portion of spiritual energy. And from that atomic spiritual energy develops this material body, from that spiritual.

The matter cannot develop. Matter cannot develop. That you have got experience. A dead body does not develop. A living body develops. A child, when it comes out of the mother's womb, if the child is dead, oh, there is no further development, however you can keep the child in a very antiseptic way preserved. No. There is no development. Therefore it is concluded that the supreme spirit, Krsna, from Him everything has come out. Everything has come out. Any stage you take, that is Krsna.
And whenever I surrender... Because my position is to surrender. I am spiritual, that atom, however big body I can develop. I can develop the body like an elephant, but the elephant is conducted under the direction of a man. You know? Such a big animal is controlled by a small boy of human being. So everyone is under control. We cannot deny that. So we have to... We are under control of different dimensions of that spiritual energy covered by material energy. But the real control is from Krsna. That we have to understand. Either we follow this path or that path...

Now, suppose there are impersonalists who believe in the ultimate, I mean to say, merging into the supreme effulgence, brahmajyoti. And what is that brahmajyoti? Brahmajyoti is just the atomic spiritual combination of atomic spiritual portions. That is brahmajyoti. Just like the sun rays. Those who are scientists, those who know what is the sun ray... The sun ray is a small molecular, glazing atom, the sun ray. You have got experience of sun ray, but what is the sun ray? It is not homogeneous. It is heterogeneous. When you can analyze the sun ray, you'll find small particles of molecules. Similarly, brahmajyoti is also spiritual atoms combined together. Just like the sun rays, different material molecules combined together, similarly, brahmajyoti is also like that. Now as in the sun rays there are different planets -- they are also generated from the sun rays -- similarly, from the brahmajyoti there are different planets, but those planets we cannot see here. That is beyond this sky. So in that planets, spiritual planets, there are different forms of God, Krsna. That is described in the Brahma-samhita.

advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam
adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca
vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.33]

Just like Krsna has expanded Himself with these molecular atomic portions of these living entities, similarly, He has got many other expansions as Visnu. So that is the nice subject matter. (aside:) Raymond, you can get there light.

So in every way this is a subject matter for studying, scrutinizingly studying, Krsna science. Krsna science is a great science. Therefore Krsna has said just in the beginning of this chapter, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. Yo vetti tattvatah. Anyone who understands Krsna scientifically, what He is, how He is working, how His energies are acting... These things are to be known. And one who simply knows this science -- what happens? Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. Simply by knowing this science he becomes liberated soul. He becomes liberated soul. And what is the position of liberated soul? Liberated soul, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. That person who is liberated simply by knowing the transcendental nature of Krsna, he is liberated, and he at once transferred to the spiritual sky into that planet which I am describing, Vaikuntha planet. There are innumerable Vaikuntha planets, and each and every planet, Krsna is there in different Narayana forms.

So this is the opportunity in the human life to understand this. We are submitting to different energies of Krsna. But if we directly submit ourself to Krsna, what He, Krsna, what He is, that is not very difficult to know because Krsna comes in this material world and displays His real nature. Anugrahaya manusyanam, in Bhagavata. Just to inform the human society that "If you have no knowledge of Krsna, just see. I have incarnated. How I am doing, you can see. You can have."

Just like something extraordinary happening in India, and if there is some photograph, cinematograph, and you see in the picture by a scope, cinema, you see the actually, what is happening. But Krsna's pastimes is not like that. Just like originally, the incidence which is happening in India, you have got a photograph. You see in cinema. This cinema picture is a shadow of that actual picture. But when Krsna comes, because He is absolute, the same picture, which is in the spiritual world, the same picture is represented here. There is no difference. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33].

Krsna is described as nava-yauvana. Some of you must have seen the picture of Krsna. He is always just like a boy of twenty years old, although He is the adi-purusa. Adi-purusa means He is the original person of all emanations. He is the oldest. Advaitam acyutam anadim, adyam purana-pu... Purana-purusam means the oldest. Purana means old. Purana-purusam; still, nava-yauvanam ca, just like a young man of twenty years old, full energy, full youthfulness.

This is the science of Krsna. So simply by knowing this science of Krsna, if we can get liberation from these material miseries of life, why should we not try for this? Let us try for Krsna consciousness. It is a very nice subject matter and very easy. We are just trying to propagate this Krsna consciousness. We don't ask you to have some troublesome or laborsome gymnastic. No. You simply come and hear, and this hearing, it is followed by nice music and singing. And beginning with music, ending with music, everyone will like it. And we have no means... Of course, whatever means I have got, I am distributing little fruit. But the process is -- Lord Caitanya, who introduced this process -- after this termination of this performance of chanting and reciting, distribution of prasadam, nice palatable dishes for eating. So Bhagavad-gita says, su-sukham: "This is a process is very palatable and very pleasurable and very easy." And still, you get Krsna. Although it is the easiest and most pleasurable and happy mood, still you get the Supreme.

And you don't require any qualification. It doesn't require that you have to become a great learned scholar. No. Simply by the gift of Krsna you have got these two ears. If you simply give aural reception to this transcendental word, that is sufficient. It does not require any extraneous education that you have to pass M.A. examination or D.A.C. or Ph.D. or something like that. No. So why should you not take advantage?

Satam prasangan mama virya-samvidah. Krsna says in Bhagavata, satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. If we actually take advantage of association of realized persons and if we hear from them, then the result is that it becomes very pleasing to the heart and the ear. Satam prasangan. Not to asatam. One must be realized soul in describing the science of Krsna. Then the result will be that the audience will feel that it is very nice to hear, and it is appealing to the heart. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna [SB 3.25.25]. Hrt means heart. Karna means ear. Hrt-karna-rasayanah, very pleasing.

Now, we have received this news, very pleasing. Now next duty? Taj-josanat. Now, if you little try to assimilate it. And what is that assimilation? Smaranam. Simply by thinking, "Oh, this has been spoken." Try to argue whether it is true or not. So you have to think over. Satam prasangan, taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani. And if you do that... Suppose you hear something of the Bhagavad-gita, and it appeals to you, or even does not appeal to you. Just try to think over: "What Bhagavad-gita says? How Swamiji has discussed this matter?" Apply your arguments. Apply your logic. Don't take it as a sentiment or as a blind faith. You have got reason; you have got arguments; you have got sense. Apply it and try to understand it. Neither it is bogus. It is scientific. Then you will feel... Taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati. You will gradually develop your attachment for hearing it, and devotional service will be invoked in your heart, and then, gradually, you will make progress.

But one thing. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, once you begin, even one percent you can realize, that will never be lost. That will remain a permanent settlement. Now suppose if you are trying for BA examination, or you have passed your B.A. examination. Now, with the end of this body, that, your qualification as graduate of Columbia University or any university, is finished. Now your life begins in another body, and you have to acquire knowledge again to become qualified to graduate. But this knowledge is not like that. Because it is spiritual knowledge, absolute knowledge, it goes with you, your spirit. That you will find, explanation. And another chance is that one who tries to assimilate this knowledge, even if he is not, I mean to, perfect, so there is no harm. Because whatever he has learned, that remains an asset, and you get another chance of human body to begin from where you have ended in this life.

Yoga-bhrastah. Sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41]. You'll find in the Bhagavad-gita. Sucinam and srimatam. Sucinam means purified family. Just like in India we have got the ideal purified family, a brahmana. Of course, nowadays, due to material advance of civilization, everything is polluted, but according to... Still there are some families, very purified. If you go to their house, at once you will feel, "Oh, it is a place, fully purified." So sucinam. Sucinam means in the family of such purified brahmanas. And srimatam. Srimatam means in the family of rich men.

Why these two chances are given? Because in the family of a pure cultural family, you get the chance of regenerating your lost spiritual consciousness which was unfinished in your last life. That you get chance. And in the rich man family you get chance because you haven't got to bother yourself how to maintain your body and soul together. Rich men get the opportunity that they haven't got to think over much about the maintenance of the body and soul together. Ordinary men, they have to seek how to earn the bread. Problem of bread is there. And for a rich man there is no such problem. He can advance in culture. He has the opportunity. But unfortunately, a rich man's sons are misguided. They get some money without earning and they spend like anything for sense gratification. You see? But he should know, "Oh, I have got this opportunity by the grace of Krsna. Now let me peacefully advance myself in the science of Krsna." This opportunity is offered by Krsna, but we misuse.

Still, we should not wait for the chance of another birth. We should take the opportunity in this birth. Just like Krsna prescribes here that simply by knowing the transcendental nature of Krsna and His transcendental activities, one can get liberated. Why don't you do that? Why should you wait for another birth, either in the rich man's family or in the pure family of a brahmana? Because it is not exactly sure that because a person is born in the family of a pure brahmana, he is elevating spiritually. No. Sometimes we see that he is degrading because he is misusing or by bad association or the parents is not training.

So we should not miss this opportunity of human life and follow this instruction that janma karma me divyam yo vetti tattvatah: [Bg. 4.9] anyone who simply understands the transcendental nature of Krsna, he becomes a liberated person. This opportunity we should take.

And ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. And we are already under the control of some leadership. That is a fact. Why should we not take exactly, directly, the leadership of Krsna? This is the process. If you have got any doubt, that "Why should I take the leadership of Krsna?" the answer is there in the Bhagavad-gita. This is the real study of Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita the Lord says that "Arjuna, you are My dear friend. Therefore, although I have explained all the different branches of, I mean to say, spiritual cultivation, but the most confidential thing just I am telling you because you are My very dear friend." Sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Just give up everything, and just be surrendered unto Me. I shall give you all protection." So instead of accepting so many infidel or imperfect leadership, let us accept the leadership of Krsna and make our life perfect. That is the whole philosophy.

Now, in the next sloka the Lord says,

kanksantah karmanam siddhim
yajanta iha devatah
ksipram hi manuse loke
siddhir bhavati karma-ja

Now, I accept some particular class of leader because I belong to that status of ideas. So therefore you know that in the Vedic literature there are names of many demigods. Sometimes the Hindus are criticized that "Hindus have got many gods." But they are not the Supreme God. If somebody is a serious student of Upanisads, they will find that the demigods described, they are all, I mean to say, servants of the Supreme Lord Krsna. But here it is said, kanksantah karmanam siddhim.

Sometimes we want something immediately by worshiping these demigods. Just like it is mentioned that if one wants to be free from diseases, he has to worship the sun-god. If one has to become very beautiful or he wants a beautiful wife, then he has to worship Uma. Similarly, there are different gods named in the Vedic literatures, and they become successful. That is not unreal. By worshiping those different demigods for particular purpose, they become successful. That is a fact. But in another place you will find in the Bhagavad-gita that it is said, I mean to say, kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah yajanty anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah: "Those who are misguided by material desires, they take the shelter of other demigods."

One goes to the worship of demigods because one is persuaded for a particular purpose. Just like one who wants to be very healthy man or to be free from all diseases, he worships the sun-god. Or one who wants to have a beautiful wife or becomes himself a very beautiful human, he worships the devi Uma.

But one who is convinced, one who is convinced that "I am not this body..." This is the thing, "I am not this body." The material wants means bodily demands. Then he does not go to all these demigods. He takes at once shelter of the Supreme Lord. Jnanavan. Jnanavan, who has understood the problems of life. Jnanavan. Jnana means who has understood the spiritual nature of the living being, he is called jnanavan. So jnanavan. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. One who has become really learned, even after many, many births, and knows that "I am not this body; I am spirit. My nature, my advancement, my happiness, is depending on the advancement of my spiritual life," such a person only can take shelter of Krsna and perfectly.

Others, of course, as it is said, that those who are distressed or those who are in need of some wealth, they also go to worship Krsna, but for some temporary relief. But the benefit is that even such persons go to Krsna worship for some temporary relief, but the benefit is that because he has gone to Krsna, therefore, at the ultimate end, he will be devoid of all these material desires and will absolutely take shelter of Krsna. There are many instances of that type, of that type.

Just like Dhruva Maharaja. Dhruva Maharaja, he went to worship Krsna just to have the property of his father. That's a long story. The property of his father... The father has two wives, and Dhruva Maharaja's mother was neglected by the king. So he was going to be bereft of the father's property. So he wanted father's property. He went to in the forest to worship Krsna just to ask Him, "Give me my father's property." There was a desire. But, you will be glad to understand, when Dhruva Maharaja, after finishing his tapasya, or penance, when he saw Krsna, when Krsna appeared before him as Visnu: "My dear boy, now whatever you want you can ask. I shall give you," now, he said, "Oh, my Lord, I don't want anything anymore."

There is a verse, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] "My dear Lord, I am so satisfied that I have no desire to ask You." Why? Sthanabhilasi tapasi sthito 'ham:(?) "I came to accept this severe type of penance just to acquire the land of my father, or just desiring the possession of a few acres of land or any... But I have seen You. Who are You?" Deva-munindra-guhyam: "Who is never seen even by the great demigods or great sages or great men by many years penances. Therefore my profit is that I came to search out some particles of glass, broken glass, and I have got the diamond. So what I have got to ask You? I am now satisfied."
So result is that even one is in need of money or he is in distress, as we'll find in the Seventh Chapter, that catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, so even if you have got some desire within yourself, so the Bhagavad-gita says, in spite of having that desire, you can worship Krsna and ask so that in future your desires will be desireless. You will not ask anything because that is pure devotion. So we have to wait.

Just like jnani. Jnani, he does not desire anything to take in exchange, but he simply wants to know Krsna, "What is my relation with Krsna?" This is called jnani. He has no other desire. Therefore eko bhaktih visisyate. Jnani has been eulogized. So even I am not jnani, even I am a needy person, if I take to Krsna and ask Him, that process is also recommended because ultimately, when I shall be purified, I shall know my real nature. Then I shall say like Dhruva Maharaja, svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace: [Cc. Madhya 22.42] "My dear Lord, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything." Because spiritual consciousness, Krsna consciousness, is so bright, so illuminated and so valuable that in the presence of such consciousness, you will directly deny to have any valuable things of this material world.

So we have to attain to that state. That is the real aim of life, and Lord Krsna personally is teaching in the Bhagavad-gita. Why should we not take advantage of this? We should not refuse. If we refuse... We can refuse because we are individual souls with independence. If you like, you can refuse, but we should not refuse. Here Krsna says that "Those who does not come to My leadership, but he goes indirectly to other leaders..." We worship leadership -- why? Because we want something from that leadership. Just like in India during the independence movement, so many people took part in the Congress movement, and later on, they became all ministers and high officers although they had no position in India's past life. So it is possible that if we worship other demigods, we can get some temporary relief from our distress, but if you take to Krsna, then the relief is permanent, and tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9], we can give up this body and go directly to the spiritual kingdom to be associated with Krsna.

Now, here Krsna says, kanksantah karmanam siddhim yajanta iha: "People are deluded for temporary relief, and therefore they go to worship demigods." They get some immediate relief. That is their profit. But ksipram hi manuse loke siddhir bhavati karma-ja. If you want some temporary relief, then you can worship this or that. But if you want really the ultimate relief... And that is the goal of human life, ultimate... Everyone is trying to get out of miseries. The whole struggle, either in the material field or in the spiritual field, the whole struggle is to get out of some misery.

So perfect man or a very intelligent man, he should try to have the highest benefit of this life, and that is surrendering unto Krsna. That is surrendering unto Krsna. If we do that, then we are both materially and spiritually benefited. You will find in the later slokas that tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam [Bg. 10.10]. The exact word, I forget now. It is said that "Those who are engaged in Krsna consciousness," Krsna says, "I supply them all that he needs. He hasn't got to ask anybody." Krsna knows.

Just like the father knows what is the necessity of his child who is depending fully on the father. The father may neglect of the grown-up children who is looking after his own business, but the child who is completely dependent on father and mother, the father-mother takes care.

Similarly, Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says, yoga-ksemam vahamy aham [Bg. 9.22]. Anyone who is fully in Krsna consciousness without any consideration, then everything is taken care by Krsna. This assurance is given. But if you don't believe in that assurance, if you don't believe in Krsna, that is a different thing. But so far Bhagavad-gita is concerned, if we become fully Krsna consciousness then our ultimate solution of all problems will be solved. That is a fact. Now if you have got any question, you can ask. [break]

Prabhupada: ...atomic, atom consistency of matter, have you got experience?

Guest (1): Not experience.

Prabhupada: No, at least you have heard that there is atom.

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: As in the matter there is atom, similarly, spirit there is atom. Simply... Now, both these, beginning from the supreme down to the atom, this is, they are expansions of different energies of Krsna, either this material atom or the spiritual atom. Now, we are spiritual atoms. We living entities, we are spiritual atoms, and by material atomic combination we have developed this body, although this material body is foreign to me. Similarly, we can develop our spiritual body also in the spiritual world. Is it clear? Just like in the material world, in combination with matter we have developed this material body. Do you believe in this, that "I am spiritual atom, and I have developed this material body on the basis of spiritual atom?" It is a fact. It is a fact.

Just like in the mother's womb when the spiritual atom takes place, then it grows, it forms the material body. Without that spiritual atom, there cannot be any growth of body. Simply sex intercourse does not give guarantee of pregnancy. Unless that spiritual atom is there, the body does not grow. That is... We get information from authoritative sastra. So the whole material world is also grown up upon the spiritual existence. And our whole problem is that instead of having this material body, we have to get our spiritual body. That is Krsna conscious... That is the benefit of Krsna consciousness. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9].

Now, one who goes to Krsna, do you mean to say, "One who goes to Krsna vacant"? No. He goes to Krsna with a body. Just like Krsna has got body, so you also go before Him... Just like you come to me with a body. I go to you with a body. You are a spiritual atom; I am also spiritual atom. Now I have developed this body; you have developed this body. Our meeting is between these two bodies. Similarly, when you go to Krsna, mad dhama, or Krsna's dhama, His abode, we go there with spiritual body. Yes.

Devotee: Does the spiritual contain spacial relationships?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Are things bounded by space in the spiritual world. In other words...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is only spiritual. As you have got a material space, similarly, there is spiritual space. As you have got material body, similarly, you have got spiritual body.

Janardana: What is the difference between spiritual body and spiritual atoms?

Prabhupada: Yes. Matter is not eternal, and spirit is eternal. Matter is full of ignorance, and spirit is full of knowledge. Matter is full of unpleasantness, and spirit is full of pleasure, sac-cid-ananda. That is the difference between matter and spirit.

Janardana: And what is the difference between spiritual atoms and spiritual bodies? Or are they the same thing?

Prabhupada: No. Spiritual atom... Just like from the spiritual body, you have developed this material body, similarly, from the spiritual atom, you can develop your spiritual body. Tyaktva deham. Tyaktva deham means that giving up this material body, he develops his spiritual body and then goes to the kingdom of God, or Krsna. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. So when he goes to Krsna, he goes in spiritual body. So there is potency of every living being. Just like he has got the potency of developing this material body, similarly, he has got the potency of developing spiritual body. Is it any difficulty to understand?

So our problem is that we are suffering all kinds of miseries on account of this material body. Now, our business should be that we shall be cultured in Krsna consciousness so that in next life will be my spiritual body. Then the solution of all problems solved. And so long we shall get material body repeatedly -- just like we give up this dress and take another dress, similarly, we shall continue -- then the four kinds of miseries, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], or at least these four kinds of miseries -- the miseries of birth, the miseries of death, and the miseries of old age, and miseries of diseases -- we have to suffer. And as soon as you get spiritual body, all these miseries over. Because your body is no more subjected to birth and death, disease and old age. That life is eternal, full of knowledge, and blissful. That you can get simply by studying the nature of Krsna, transcendental nature of Krsna. So we are hankering after so many things. We are taking the leadership of this leader, that leader, that leader just to relieve, get relief from our temporary misery. So our duty should be just to get rid of all misery by developing that spiritual body. That should be the aim of life. And that is possible by Krsna consciousness. Any other questions? Oh. [break]

Guest (2): I mean if it passes on. It's just a dim thought. That's all.

Prabhupada: Your question is whether miseries are eternal or not.

Guest (2): Eternal thoughts [force?].

Prabhupada: No. Miseries are not eternal. You can end your miseries. But if you want to end miseries materially, that is temporary. If you end your miseries spiritually, that is permanent. Just like in this world we are also trying to end our miseries. Suppose I am distressed or I am diseased. I go to hospital to end my misery. But that misery are not permanent, er, that end of misery is not permanent, temporary. I can get again disease. So long I have got this material body, that miseries can be repeated. That disease can be repeated. But if you get your spiritual body, then there is no more question of miseries. Yes?

Devotee: Is human birth superior in terms of self-realization? Is it superior to the demigods?

Prabhupada: Yes. Demigod is also like you. Just like in the human society there are difference of bodies. One body is richer than the other body. One body is happier than the other body in material estimation. Similarly, in the higher planets there are different bodies who are happier than persons who are living in this earthly planet. It is estimated that their standard of living is higher.

Just like in this planet there are different nations and different people and they have got different standard of living also. Your European and American people, your standard of living better than our Indian people so far material consideration is there. You have got very nice toilet room, but the Indians go to the field to evacuate. So in that way this country is advantageous.

So as you find even in this planet there are different species of life, different species of human kind and they have got different standards of living, similarly, in the higher planets there are also living entities just like us. They are also like men, but their position is different. Their bodily constitution is different. Their living standard is different.

But in spite of different being, they are subjected to the material laws, the birth, death, old age and disease. They are not free from that. Nobody is free. Within this universe, anyone, either human being or demigod or animal or anyone, they are subjected to these four principles of miseries: birth, death, and old age and disease. So when you get out of this material world, then you get free from this. Their duration of life may be greater than your duration of life, but death is sure.

You cannot get rid of death in higher planets. Death is there, sure. The duration of life... Just like a man's duration of life than the duration of the life of a dog is greater, but both are subjected to the principle of death. That one cannot avoid. But if you want to avoid the subjugation under death, then you have to develop your spiritual body, and that is possible by Krsna consciousness. Any other questions? Yes?

Woman: Are there individuals in these bodies?

Prabhupada: You are individual spirit. You are individual spirit. Are you not? Don't you feel it? Don't you feel your individuality?

Woman: Yes, but if one feels love for another[?], I want to be eternally one.

Prabhupada: Yes. You become one in the quality of spirit. Do you follow?

Woman: No, I don't understand that I have got a spiritual body really.

Prabhupada: Oh, then... (chuckles) That you take information from Bhagavad-gita. There is spiritual body. And why it is difficult to understand? You can understand it that your material body has developed from that atomic existence of spirit. You can understand that?

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly, from that atomic spiritual existence, you can develop your spiritual body. What is the difficulty? It is the same process. As you have developed your material body, similarly, you can develop your spiritual body. What is the difficulty in understanding it?

Woman: But by merging, we come to be all alone, one spirit.

Prabhupada: You are merged in matter; still, you have got your individual existence. What is your body? This is matter. Is it not? Then are you not merged with matter? Then still you have got your individual existence. Don't you agree? Similarly, I may merge in the spiritual existence, but still, my individuality will be there. You are merged already in this matter. Just like when you leave this body, your body will be transformed into earth. That means it is already merged. Still, you have got separate existence. And what is that separate existence? Due to that spirit. So even in the matter, if the spirit can maintain separate existence, don't you think in spirit it cannot maintain its separate existence?

Merging means just like aeroplane. Aeroplane is flying in the air, in the sky. When it goes too far, it becomes too small, you say, "It has merged into the sky." But it has got, even in that position, it has got its separate existence. Just like a bird, a parrot, enters a tree. The tree is also green, and the bird is also green. When it enters the tree, you see no separate existence of the bird, but it has got a separate existence. Similarly, either you are in material existence or in spiritual existence you are already merged, but you have got your separate existence. Is it clear? Thank you.

Now let us have sankirtana. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 4.11-12 -- New York, July 28, 1966