The Fragrance Of The Soul -- The Learning Of The Fool

66/03/04 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.11

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Prabhupada: So Krsna is, in this sen..., He's identified, that bhagavan. Bhagavan means that nobody can surpass His knowledge. Because I have already given the definition of bhagavan, that a personality who is in full, all the opulences -- wealth, strength, fame and knowledge, beauty and renunciation -- He is God. You see? So... Now, in this, at the present moment, when people are godless, I think, this definition is convincing. If you find out a personality that, one who has got in full all these opulences, He is God. Then it will be very difficult to present an ordinary man as God. You see? You'll find that in the Bhagavad-gita, when Arjuna was convinced that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead... But because in future others will have doubt about Krsna, he requested Krsna that "Will You show me Your universal form?" And Krsna agreed and showed him the universal form. That means in future any intelligent man, accepting a so-called God, may also ask him, "Just show something, that you are God." Without showing something, simply by false advertisement, one cannot be God. So whole mistake is that we do not know what is God. We consider God may be just like one of us. No. The God who is controlling such a huge affairs of universal administration, He cannot be, He is superconscious. That is superconsciousness.

Now, here, asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. Now, the whole living existence is a very subtle thing. Now, this body, this body made of earth, water, fire, air, sky, this gross body; and behind this, there is another subtle body. That is mind, intelligence and ego. So when we give up this gross body, that subtle body carries me to another gross body. So when this, this body is lifeless, that body, subtle body, is not lifeless. Just like at night, when this gross body is asleep, the subtle body works. Therefore we dream. So subtle body carries to next life. And I have given in the introduction that how one man changes his body. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Now, the subtle body, I mean to say, mind, intelligence and ego, when these three things, psychic life, is absorbed in a certain kind of thought, the dying man gets a similar body in the next life. The, that we shall come when we make progress in the study of Bhagavad-gita. Just like the air passing over the rose tree carries the flavor of the rose, and the air passing over a filthy place carries the flavor of that filthy place -- the air is pure, but because it is passing over certain conditions, it carries the flavor -- similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego carries the flavor of our present activities to the next life. That is the subtle mystery of transmigration of the soul from one body to another. Now, if this, this life we purify just like rose, then next life we shall get a body which is full of flavor. If, if, if in this life, if we practice devotion of God, then next life is to become the associate of God. That cintamani-prakara-sadmasu... We are transferred to that planet. You see? These are simple things. The whole thing is in my hand. If I want to be degraded, I can prepare myself in this life for such degradation in the next life. And if we want to elevate ourself to the highest perfection of life, as to become one of the associates of God, we can prepare ourself like that. You'll find in the, in the advanced chapters, that yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Now, we are trying to go to the moon planet. Now, here, in this life, if cultivate ourself for the same thought, the moon planet... That means the moon planet, about moon planet, we have to hear, and we have to think that "I shall go in such and such place." Unless you hear, you cannot abide here. Just like our friend, Mr. Cohen, he has left for California. Now, so far I am concerned, I have no idea of California. Now, he has told me that after reaching there, he'll write about the description of the place. Now, suppose if, reading that description of the place, I think of going there, so I prepare myself, "Oh, I must go there." So just like I, I was describing that cintamani-dhama [Bs. 5.29], what sort of trees are there. And you were very much pleased that "I must go there." So we have to hear. Unless we hear what sort of God He is, what sort of God's place is, what is the mode of life there, we cannot be attracted. We cannot be attracted.

So here they say that gatasun agatasums ca. There are two, two sort of bodies in which we are now entered. Now, suppose this gross body appears to be now dead and gone, stopped, but one must know that subtle body has carried him to another body. So subtle body is not lost life. The life is there. So here Krsna says that either of the gross body or of... Subtle body has to be also left. When you get liberation, when you get liberation, that subtle body, that egoistic life, has also to be left. Now, at any condition, the body has to be left. So why one should cry for this body? Therefore Krsna says that "A learned man does not lament over this body." The whole question, that a soul is different from this body, the whole question is solved in one verse. You see? Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah [Bg. 2.11]. "One who is actually learned, he does not, he has no concern of this body. He's concerned with the activities of the soul. So you are speaking of so many things that 'If these, my friends, die, the, I mean to say, their wives will become widow.' These are all... According to the bodily relation, you are speaking. And you are posing yourself just like a very learned man, but you are a fool number one because your whole conception is on the body. Your whole conception of argument with Me was on the body, but you are, you are posing himself just as if you are very learned man." So anyone who has got conception, the identification of this body, he's not a learned man. He's a fool. He may be, in the calculation of academic education, he may be B.A., M.A., Ph.D., DAC, or something like, doctors and..., but if he has got his identification with this body, he's not a learned man according to Bhagavad-gita. Not only according, according to whole Vedic literature. This is the first instruction. This is the... If we want to make progress towards spiritual advancement of knowledge, this preliminary knowledge we must have, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." This is the preliminary standing of spiritual knowledge. This is not advancement. This is simply A-B-C-D, ABCD of spiritual life. In the Bhagavata there is a very nice verse in this connection in which it is stated, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. Kunape means this bag, this bag made of three elements. Now, according to Ayurvedic medical system, this body is made of three elements: kapha, pitta, vayu.

Woman: Three elements?

Prabhupada: Yes. Kapha. Kapha means cold, coldness.

Woman: Common.

Prabhupada: Cough, cough, what do you call cough? Coughing. Yes. Kapha, pitta, vayu: "coldness, heat and air." Yes. Only these three things constitute this body. Therefore it is called a bag made of three elements: coldness, air and fire, heat. Heat, coldness and air -- this body's made.

Woman: What, what does coldness stand for?

Prabhupada: Coldness, you can take it for water, or secretion.

Woman: Water.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: Yes. Water, fire and air.

Prabhupada: Water, fire and air.

Woman: That's better.

Prabhupada: Now, the Bhagavata says that yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: [SB 10.84.13] "If anyone, he's identified with this body made of water, air and fire..." And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. This is a body made of three things. Now... And sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And if one thinks the issues, the by-products of this body as his own kinsmen..." Just like my children, my wife, my relatives, my father, my mother, my brother, my nation, my society -- everything is due to this bodily relation. And there are thousands of women loitering in the street of New York, and suppose I have got some ma..., bodily connection with you, I call you my wife. And because I have got bodily relation with you, all the children produced by you, they are my children. You see? So whole thing is... The basic principle is wrong, that "I am this body." Now, from the expansion of the body, the whole thing, the whole thing is false. Because I am not this body, so my expansion of body is also not I am. But whole world is going on on this false impression. The whole world is going on. The fight, the fighting between one nation and another nation -- because due to this body. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. "One who is identified with this body, which is made of water, fire and, water, fire and air, and the issues from this body as kinsmen and own men..." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dha.., sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And," I mean to say, "attachment, attachment for such issues..." And bhauma-ijya-dhih: "And the land from which this body has grown up, that is worshipable." Now everybody is fighting for the land. "Oh, we are Indian." "We are Pakistani." "We are Vietnamese." "We are Americans." "We are German." The fighting, so much fighting is going on. The land, for the land. So land, land has become worshipable, so worshipable that one is sacrificed his valuable life for that land. You see? But the land is so dear, why? This body has become grown up from this land. So that is also there, the bodily connection.

So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. In the land... They have no meaning for God. Now, the Russian philosophy, they have no meaning for God, but they have every meaning for their land, for the land. So land has been identified as worshipable, and they're prepared to sacrifice anything for the land. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: "One who is identified with this body and one who thinks the bodily offshoots as his own men, and the land from which the body has grown as worshipable," yat-tirtha-buddhih salile.

Yat-tirtha-buddhih salile. Now, in Christian world also, that the water of the Jordan River is sacred is considered. Similarly, Hindus also, when they go to some pilgrimage, they take bath on the sacred river. But one should know that going to the sacred place does not mean simply to take bath in that water. Real meaning of going to a sacred place -- to find out some intelligent scholar in spiritual knowledge. They are living there. To make association with them, to take knowledge from them -- that is the purpose of going to pilgrimage. Because in pilgrimage, holy places... Just like I, my residence is at Vrndavana. So at Vrndavana there are many great scholars and saintly persons living. So one should go to such holy places not simply to take bath in the water, but he must be intelligent enough to find out some spiritually advanced man living there and take instruction from him and (be) benefited by that. But he does not go. He takes simply bath and purchases some goods and advertises, "Oh, I have been to such and such pilgrimage." Well... yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13] and yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu: "He has the attachment for pilgrimage, for taking bath only, but he has no attraction for the learned people there." You see?

So such kind of man is considered as ass. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-khara. Go-khara. Go means cow or..., and khara means ass. So practically the whole world is moving as the civilization of cow and asses because the whole thing is identification with this... The center is this body, and expansion of the body, the attraction, whole attraction is there. Yes? You want to...?

Woman: Yes. In the Indian places known as sacred places...

Prabhupada: Sac... Yes.

Woman: ...isn't ...sacred places...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: ...isn't it also a fact that there is more magnetism there because of the meeting of...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Woman: ...saints and more people...?(?)

Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Therefore the place itself has got some magnetism. You see?

Woman: Yes. And when...

Prabhupada: Just like at Vrndavana, at Vrndavana... That is practical. Now here I am sitting, New York, a very great, the world's greatest city, so magnificent city, but my heart is always hankering after that Vrndavana.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. I am not happy here.

Woman: Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: I shall be very happy to return to my Vrndavana, that sacred place. "But then why you are...?" Now, because it is my duty. I have brought some message for you people. Because I am ordered by superior, my spiritual master, that "Whatever you have learned, you should go to the Western countries, and you must distribute this knowledge." So in spite of all my difficulties, all my inconveniences, I am here because I am in duty. I, I... That is my personal convenience, if I go and sit down at Vrndavana, I shall be very comfortable there. And I'll be, I'll have no anxiety, nothing of the sort. You see? But I have taken all the risk in the old age because I am in duty-bound. I am in duty-bound. So I have to execute my duty in spite of all my inconveniences. That is the idea.

So this is the whole thing, the whole basic principle of spiritual advancement of knowledge. One should first be convinced that he is not this body. He is not this body. Then other spiritual knowledge will begin. This is the basic principle. You'll find it. You'll find it in the Bhagavad-gita that this situation of spiritual life is called brahma-bhutah. Brahman. So

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
 [Bg. 18.54]

So the, unless one understands himself, he also cannot understand God also. In his, in his misunderstanding position... Now, what Dr. Mishra is teaching is very nice because he is teaching that "Just first of all you know 'What I am, what I...' " That's very good. But that "what I am" can be known from the Bhagavad-gita also, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." That knowledge, at least theoretically, one must accept, that "I am not this body." Now Krsna is describing that what is the position. I am not this body. That's all right. Now, actually, what we are? What we are? I'm not body. That's all right. Then what we are? Now, the next, next version is Krsna... We must always know that Krsna... Here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca means that He has got so extensive knowledge that there cannot be any mistake. He's authority. He's authority. So whatever He says is right. Is right. That is the conception of bhagavan. Here it is not said, Krsnah uvaca. Because somebody may doubt Krsna, that "Krsna was a historical personality. Why you should be so much concerned with Krsna?" as is general view. But here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. And I have given you the definition of Bhagavan, that He is all knowledge. So whatever He will speak, Bhagavan, there cannot be any mistake. For ordinary persons, there are four, I mean to say, difficulties, four imperfectness. Just like we are ordinary man. We have got four imperfectness. What is that imperfectness? That we must commit mistake. We must commit mistake. Our constitutional position at the present moment is such that we are sure to commit mistake. Even greatest politician like Gandhi, he committed mistake, and so many great men, they committed mistake. "To err is human," therefore, it is called, that any, any man, however he may be great in the estimation of this world, he is sure to commit mistake. And another imperfection is that he is illusioned.

Woman: Illusioned.

Prabhupada: Illusioned. Now, illusioned you can see. Illusioned means taking one thing for another. That is called illusion. Just like in the desert, accepting the sand as water. That is called illusion. Similarly, every one of us who are identified with this body, he's under illusion. That is a false thing, but he has no knowledge. Even President Johnson, he's under illusion. Even the greatest scientist, he's under this illusion. So that, one is sure to commit mistake, and one is under illusion, and bhrama, pramada and vipralambhana... Vipralambhana means the tendency for cheating.

Woman: That is the fourth?

Prabhupada: That is the third. First is that one is sure to commit mistake, one is sure to be in illusion, and one is adapted to cheat others. Now, he is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. That is cheating. Everyone is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. Then you can ask that "You are also giving us knowledge?" No, I am not giving you knowledge. I am speaking Bhagavad-gita. I am giving you knowledge as given by Lord Krsna. It is not my knowledge.

Woman: But this is own interpretation.

Prabhupada: Eh? Not interpretation. It is reading.

Woman: One can cheat.

Prabhupada: I give you... Cheat. No, that is also in the definition of a conditioned soul. These four principles are there. It is not my manufactured thing. The, these are information from authoritative scripture, that a conditioned soul has four imperfectness. One imperfectness is that he's sure to commit mistake. He's illusioned, and he has got a tendency to cheat, and, above all, his senses are imperfect. So anyone who is above all these four imperfectness -- who never commits mistake, who is never illusioned, who never cheats others, and who has got perfect senses -- He is God. That is also another definition of God. He may not be... God is Supreme, God, but anyone who comes to this stage of life, he's liberated. He's lib..., as good as God. Yes?

Student: Do you say, eh..? (incomplete) (end)

 

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Part 2 The Unavoidable Battle

66/03/02 New York, Bhagavad-gita 2.7-11

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So these are opulences: wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation -- six things. Anyone who possess all these six opulences in full, He is God. That is the definition of God. So when Krsna was present on this earth, He showed His opulence, opulences, in full. Opulences in full. Of course, we have got all these historical records about Him. Now, so far His wealth is concerned, He had 16,108 wives. And for each of them, for each of them, He built a palace. And all those palaces were so nicely built that there was no need of electricity or light. It was bedecked with jewels. So day and night, they were blazing. You see? So these description are there. But if we forget that, that He is God, then this will be something like story, that "How a man can marry sixteen thousand wives? How He...?" But we should always remember that He is God. He is all-powerful. And for no other person such historical records are there, only for Krsna. So in strength also nobody could conquer Him. And beauty... So far beauty is concerned, when He was on the battlefield... Have you seen any picture of Krsna? Have you seen? Oh, no. Any one of you have seen Krsna? Krsna, when He was present in the battle, Battlefield of Kuruksetra, at that time He was about ninety years old. Ninety years old. He had His great-grandchildren. He married sixteen thousand wives, and each wife had ten children. And those ten children, they also got, each, ten, twelve children. And they had children also. Because He was at that time ninety years old, He got at that time great-grandchildren also. So His family was very great. Now, if you see the picture of Krsna, you'll see Him just like a boy of twenty-two, twenty-five years old. He was so beautiful. He was so beautiful. Then... That is the sign of God. It is stated in Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca [Bs. 5.33]. He is the original person. Because from God everyone has born, therefore He is the original person, adyam. Purana-purusam. Purana means the oldest person. Still, nava-yauvanam ca. Whenever you will see God... That is the... This is the sign of God. You'll find Him just like a youth, a new youth. Youthfulness means, say, sixteen to twenty-four years. So nava-yauvanam ca. That is the sign of God. So He was so beautiful that when He was a boy of fifteen years old His, the whole, I mean, of His, of the same age girls, girls of His age, they were after Him. He was so beautiful. So in beauty He was superexcellent. In wealth He was superexcellent. In strength He was superexcellent. And in knowledge...

Now, here is a book, Bhagavad-gita. Now, apart from other books, other knowledge which He imparted to other..., now, here is a book which was imparted to Arjuna. Now, it is so, the depth of knowledge..., that people are still considering, great, great scholars. We are not reading, but Dr. Radhakrishnan, one of the greatest scholars of the world -- now he is the president of India -- he is discussing. Professor Einstein, he was living here in America. He was a German Jew, and I think he was living in America. He was a great student of this Bhagavad-gita. Hitler. Hitler was a great student of Bhagavad-gita. And there were many scholars still reading Bhagavad-gita, trying to understand. Just see what best depth of knowledge He has given. It is made by Krsna. So in knowledge, in wealth, in strength, in beauty, and in everything He was opulent. Therefore He is Bhagavan. You cannot accept any ordinary man as Bhagavan. So therefore Bhagavan. Now, bhagavan uvaca. And because He has been accepted as the spiritual master... Just like a teacher has the right to sometimes rebuke the student, so in the first instance He is rebuking Arjuna in the following words that

asocyan anvasocas tvam
prajna-vadams ca bhasase
gatasun agatasums ca
nanusocanti panditah
 [Bg. 2.11]

that "Arjuna, you are speaking just like a very great, learned man, but you are... You are... In other words, you are a fool. You do not know how things are going on because panditah, those who are learned men, they would not have lamented just like you are doing." That means indirectly He says... Panditah means learned. Learned man does not lament over a dead body or a living body. Gatasun agatasums ca. Asun means life. One has lost his life. And one has got his life, a body, living body and a dead body, living body and a dead body. Just mark the point, that "A learned man... As you are lamenting over the subject of killing your friends and relatives, but a learned man would not have lamented like this. That means you are a fool." When He says... Just like if I say, "Mr. Green, what you have done, any intelligent man should not have done this." So this is indirectly saying that "You are not intelligent." It is in a gentleman's way, speaking that "Mr. Green, what you are doing, no intelligent man can do this." That means "You are not intelligent." So here He say that "You are lamenting over the bodies of your relatives because in the fight you are considering that 'My friends and my relatives will be killed,' so that means they are living bodies, and you are lamenting over the, over their killing. So this sort of lamentation is never done by a learned man. A learned man never does it." Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah [Bg. 2.11]. "Those who are learned, one who is learned, he does not lament over the body, either a living body or dead body. There is no question of..." Now, because one who knows the distinction between the body and the soul, firmly con... Just like you have heard the name of Socrates. Soc..., a great philosopher, Greek philosopher. He believed in the immortality of soul. So he was punished in the court. Hemlock. Hemlock was offered to him, that "All right, if you believe the immortality of soul, then you drink this hemlock poison." So he drunk because he was firmly convinced that "Even if I drink this poison... My body will be destroyed, but by destruction of my body, I am not going to be destroyed." He was convinced. So he did not lament. So a pandita, learned man, must know that this body and soul, the distinction, the difference between body and soul... The body is not soul, and the soul is not body, and one who knows, he is learned man. This instruction is given first. So for spiritual advancement this first knowledge, that the body and the soul is different... This body cannot be identified with the soul. You see? The soul is there, but body is not soul. Body is not soul. So every learned man knows it, and we should be...I think we can stop here.

Prabhupada: So Krsna is, in this sen..., He's identified, that bhagavan. Bhagavan means that nobody can surpass His knowledge. Because I have already given the definition of bhagavan, that a personality who is in full, all the opulences -- wealth, strength, fame and knowledge, beauty and renunciation -- He is God. You see? So... Now, in this, at the present moment, when people are godless, I think, this definition is convincing. If you find out a personality that, one who has got in full all these opulences, He is God. Then it will be very difficult to present an ordinary man as God. You see? You'll find that in the Bhagavad-gita, when Arjuna was convinced that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead... But because in future others will have doubt about Krsna, he requested Krsna that "Will You show me Your universal form?" And Krsna agreed and showed him the universal form. That means in future any intelligent man, accepting a so-called God, may also ask him, "Just show something, that you are God." Without showing something, simply by false advertisement, one cannot be God. So whole mistake is that we do not know what is God. We consider God may be just like one of us. No. The God who is controlling such a huge affairs of universal administration, He cannot be, He is superconscious. That is superconsciousness.

Now, here, asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. Now, the whole living existence is a very subtle thing. Now, this body, this body made of earth, water, fire, air, sky, this gross body; and behind this, there is another subtle body. That is mind, intelligence and ego. So when we give up this gross body, that subtle body carries me to another gross body. So when this, this body is lifeless, that body, subtle body, is not lifeless. Just like at night, when this gross body is asleep, the subtle body works. Therefore we dream. So subtle body carries to next life. And I have given in the introduction that how one man changes his body. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Now, the subtle body, I mean to say, mind, intelligence and ego, when these three things, psychic life, is absorbed in a certain kind of thought, the dying man gets a similar body in the next life. The, that we shall come when we make progress in the study of Bhagavad-gita. Just like the air passing over the rose tree carries the flavor of the rose, and the air passing over a filthy place carries the flavor of that filthy place -- the air is pure, but because it is passing over certain conditions, it carries the flavor -- similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego carries the flavor of our present activities to the next life. That is the subtle mystery of transmigration of the soul from one body to another. Now, if this, this life we purify just like rose, then next life we shall get a body which is full of flavor. If, if, if in this life, if we practice devotion of God, then next life is to become the associate of God. That cintamani-prakara-sadmasu... We are transferred to that planet. You see? These are simple things. The whole thing is in my hand. If I want to be degraded, I can prepare myself in this life for such degradation in the next life. And if we want to elevate ourself to the highest perfection of life, as to become one of the associates of God, we can prepare ourself like that. You'll find in the, in the advanced chapters, that yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Now, we are trying to go to the moon planet. Now, here, in this life, if cultivate ourself for the same thought, the moon planet... That means the moon planet, about moon planet, we have to hear, and we have to think that "I shall go in such and such place." Unless you hear, you cannot abide here. Just like our friend, Mr. Cohen, he has left for California. Now, so far I am concerned, I have no idea of California. Now, he has told me that after reaching there, he'll write about the description of the place. Now, suppose if, reading that description of the place, I think of going there, so I prepare myself, "Oh, I must go there." So just like I, I was describing that cintamani-dhama [Bs. 5.29], what sort of trees are there. And you were very much pleased that "I must go there." So we have to hear. Unless we hear what sort of God He is, what sort of God's place is, what is the mode of life there, we cannot be attracted. We cannot be attracted.So here they say that gatasun agatasums ca. There are two, two sort of bodies in which we are now entered. Now, suppose this gross body appears to be now dead and gone, stopped, but one must know that subtle body has carried him to another body. So subtle body is not lost life. The life is there. So here Krsna says that either of the gross body or of... Subtle body has to be also left. When you get liberation, when you get liberation, that subtle body, that egoistic life, has also to be left. Now, at any condition, the body has to be left. So why one should cry for this body? Therefore Krsna says that "A learned man does not lament over this body." The whole question, that a soul is different from this body, the whole question is solved in one verse. You see? Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah [Bg. 2.11]. "One who is actually learned, he does not, he has no concern of this body. He's concerned with the activities of the soul. So you are speaking of so many things that 'If these, my friends, die, the, I mean to say, their wives will become widow.' These are all... According to the bodily relation, you are speaking. And you are posing yourself just like a very learned man, but you are a fool number one because your whole conception is on the body. Your whole conception of argument with Me was on the body, but you are, you are posing himself just as if you are very learned man." So anyone who has got conception, the identification of this body, he's not a learned man. He's a fool. He may be, in the calculation of academic education, he may be B.A., M.A., Ph.D., DAC, or something like, doctors and..., but if he has got his identification with this body, he's not a learned man according to Bhagavad-gita. Not only according, according to whole Vedic literature. This is the first instruction. This is the... If we want to make progress towards spiritual advancement of knowledge, this preliminary knowledge we must have, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." This is the preliminary standing of spiritual knowledge. This is not advancement. This is simply A-B-C-D, ABCD of spiritual life. In the Bhagavata there is a very nice verse in this connection in which it is stated, yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. Kunape means this bag, this bag made of three elements. Now, according to Ayurvedic medical system, this body is made of three elements: kapha, pitta, vayu.

Woman: Three elements?

Prabhupada: Yes. Kapha. Kapha means cold, coldness.

Woman: Common.

Prabhupada: Cough, cough, what do you call cough? Coughing. Yes. Kapha, pitta, vayu: "coldness, heat and air." Yes. Only these three things constitute this body. Therefore it is called a bag made of three elements: coldness, air and fire, heat. Heat, coldness and air -- this body's made.

Woman: What, what does coldness stand for?

Prabhupada: Coldness, you can take it for water, or secretion.

Woman: Water.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: Yes. Water, fire and air.

Prabhupada: Water, fire and air.

Woman: That's better.

Prabhupada: Now, the Bhagavata says that yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: [SB 10.84.13] "If anyone, he's identified with this body made of water, air and fire..." And yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke. This is a body made of three things. Now... And sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And if one thinks the issues, the by-products of this body as his own kinsmen..." Just like my children, my wife, my relatives, my father, my mother, my brother, my nation, my society -- everything is due to this bodily relation. And there are thousands of women loitering in the street of New York, and suppose I have got some ma..., bodily connection with you, I call you my wife. And because I have got bodily relation with you, all the children produced by you, they are my children. You see? So whole thing is... The basic principle is wrong, that "I am this body." Now, from the expansion of the body, the whole thing, the whole thing is false. Because I am not this body, so my expansion of body is also not I am. But whole world is going on on this false impression. The whole world is going on. The fight, the fighting between one nation and another nation -- because due to this body. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. "One who is identified with this body, which is made of water, fire and, water, fire and air, and the issues from this body as kinsmen and own men..." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dha.., sva-dhih kalatradisu: "And," I mean to say, "attachment, attachment for such issues..." And bhauma-ijya-dhih: "And the land from which this body has grown up, that is worshipable." Now everybody is fighting for the land. "Oh, we are Indian." "We are Pakistani." "We are Vietnamese." "We are Americans." "We are German." The fighting, so much fighting is going on. The land, for the land. So land, land has become worshipable, so worshipable that one is sacrificed his valuable life for that land. You see? But the land is so dear, why? This body has become grown up from this land. So that is also there, the bodily connection.

So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. In the land... They have no meaning for God. Now, the Russian philosophy, they have no meaning for God, but they have every meaning for their land, for the land. So land has been identified as worshipable, and they're prepared to sacrifice anything for the land. So yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke: "One who is identified with this body and one who thinks the bodily offshoots as his own men, and the land from which the body has grown as worshipable," yat-tirtha-buddhih salile.

Yat-tirtha-buddhih salile. Now, in Christian world also, that the water of the Jordan River is sacred is considered. Similarly, Hindus also, when they go to some pilgrimage, they take bath on the sacred river. But one should know that going to the sacred place does not mean simply to take bath in that water. Real meaning of going to a sacred place -- to find out some intelligent scholar in spiritual knowledge. They are living there. To make association with them, to take knowledge from them -- that is the purpose of going to pilgrimage. Because in pilgrimage, holy places... Just like I, my residence is at Vrndavana. So at Vrndavana there are many great scholars and saintly persons living. So one should go to such holy places not simply to take bath in the water, but he must be intelligent enough to find out some spiritually advanced man living there and take instruction from him and (be) benefited by that. But he does not go. He takes simply bath and purchases some goods and advertises, "Oh, I have been to such and such pilgrimage." Well... yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13] and yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu: "He has the attachment for pilgrimage, for taking bath only, but he has no attraction for the learned people there." You see?

So such kind of man is considered as ass. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Go-khara. Go-khara. Go means cow or..., and khara means ass. So practically the whole world is moving as the civilization of cow and asses because the whole thing is identification with this... The center is this body, and expansion of the body, the attraction, whole attraction is there. Yes? You want to...?

Woman: Yes. In the Indian places known as sacred places...

Prabhupada: Sac... Yes.

Woman: ...isn't ...sacred places...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: ...isn't it also a fact that there is more magnetism there because of the meeting of...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Woman: ...saints and more people...?(?)

Prabhupada: Certainly. Certainly. Certainly. Therefore the place itself has got some magnetism. You see?

Woman: Yes. And when...

Prabhupada: Just like at Vrndavana, at Vrndavana... That is practical. Now here I am sitting, New York, a very great, the world's greatest city, so magnificent city, but my heart is always hankering after that Vrndavana.

 

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. I am not happy here.

Woman: Yes, I know.

Prabhupada: I shall be very happy to return to my Vrndavana, that sacred place. "But then why you are...?" Now, because it is my duty. I have brought some message for you people. Because I am ordered by superior, my spiritual master, that "Whatever you have learned, you should go to the Western countries, and you must distribute this knowledge." So in spite of all my difficulties, all my inconveniences, I am here because I am in duty. I, I... That is my personal convenience, if I go and sit down at Vrndavana, I shall be very comfortable there. And I'll be, I'll have no anxiety, nothing of the sort. You see? But I have taken all the risk in the old age because I am in duty-bound. I am in duty-bound. So I have to execute my duty in spite of all my inconveniences. That is the idea.

So this is the whole thing, the whole basic principle of spiritual advancement of knowledge. One should first be convinced that he is not this body. He is not this body. Then other spiritual knowledge will begin. This is the basic principle. You'll find it. You'll find it in the Bhagavad-gita that this situation of spiritual life is called brahma-bhutah. Brahman. So

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
 na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
 [Bg. 18.54]

So the, unless one understands himself, he also cannot understand God also. In his, in his misunderstanding position... Now, what Dr. Mishra is teaching is very nice because he is teaching that "Just first of all you know 'What I am, what I...' " That's very good. But that "what I am" can be known from the Bhagavad-gita also, that "I am not this body. I am not this body." That knowledge, at least theoretically, one must accept, that "I am not this body." Now Krsna is describing that what is the position. I am not this body. That's all right. Now, actually, what we are? What we are? I'm not body. That's all right. Then what we are? Now, the next, next version is Krsna... We must always know that Krsna... Here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca means that He has got so extensive knowledge that there cannot be any mistake. He's authority. He's authority. So whatever He says is right. Is right. That is the conception of bhagavan. Here it is not said, Krsnah uvaca. Because somebody may doubt Krsna, that "Krsna was a historical personality. Why you should be so much concerned with Krsna?" as is general view. But here it is said, bhagavan uvaca. And I have given you the definition of Bhagavan, that He is all knowledge. So whatever He will speak, Bhagavan, there cannot be any mistake. For ordinary persons, there are four, I mean to say, difficulties, four imperfectness. Just like we are ordinary man. We have got four imperfectness. What is that imperfectness? That we must commit mistake. We must commit mistake. Our constitutional position at the present moment is such that we are sure to commit mistake. Even greatest politician like Gandhi, he committed mistake, and so many great men, they committed mistake. "To err is human," therefore, it is called, that any, any man, however he may be great in the estimation of this world, he is sure to commit mistake. And another imperfection is that he is illusioned.
Woman: Illusioned.

Prabhupada: Illusioned. Now, illusioned you can see. Illusioned means taking one thing for another. That is called illusion. Just like in the desert, accepting the sand as water. That is called illusion. Similarly, every one of us who are identified with this body, he's under illusion. That is a false thing, but he has no knowledge. Even President Johnson, he's under illusion. Even the greatest scientist, he's under this illusion. So that, one is sure to commit mistake, and one is under illusion, and bhrama, pramada and vipralambhana... Vipralambhana means the tendency for cheating.

Woman: That is the fourth?

Prabhupada: That is the third. First is that one is sure to commit mistake, one is sure to be in illusion, and one is adapted to cheat others. Now, he is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. That is cheating. Everyone is imperfect, but he wants to give knowledge to others. Then you can ask that "You are also giving us knowledge?" No, I am not giving you knowledge. I am speaking Bhagavad-gita. I am giving you knowledge as given by Lord Krsna. It is not my knowledge.

Woman: But this is own interpretation.

Prabhupada: Eh? Not interpretation. It is reading.

Woman: One can cheat.

Prabhupada: I give you... Cheat. No, that is also in the definition of a conditioned soul. These four principles are there. It is not my manufactured thing. The, these are information from authoritative scripture, that a conditioned soul has four imperfectness. One imperfectness is that he's sure to commit mistake. He's illusioned, and he has got a tendency to cheat, and, above all, his senses are imperfect. So anyone who is above all these four imperfectness -- who never commits mistake, who is never illusioned, who never cheats others, and who has got perfect senses -- He is God.

Prabhupada: Now, the next question is that the Mayavadi philosophers, they say that "Because I am now covered in ignorance, therefore I see individuals." Yes.

Woman: Is that a main claim?(?)

Prabhupada: Yes. My... This individual experience that you are Mr. Such and Such, you are Mr. Such and Such, you are Mrs. Such and Such, this individual experience, is due to my ignorance. And generally, they give the example of a disease. I think it is called, medical terms, myopia. Myopia means they see this moon in two. The eyes become so defective that whenever they see things, they see two.

Woman: No, that's astigmatism.

Prabhupada: Uh, yes.

Woman: Myopia is when you have to see very near.

Prabhupada: I said... It may not be myopia, but some disease.

Woman: Astigmatism. Some sees, if somebody sees...

Prabhupada: Yes. Sometimes...

Woman: Astigmatism. In two, if somebody sees. Astigmatism.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: In two. Is it a sickness?

Prabhupada: Yes. It is sickness.

Woman: In the eyes.

Prabhupada: Because, because the thing is one, but due to my disease of the eye, I see one thing, two. That is a disease. There is a disease like that. So...

Woman: Usually people who drink.

Prabhupada: Anyway, that's an abnormal condition. In abnormal condition sometimes we can see one thing into two, divided into two. So now that ignorance, you cannot apply to Krsna because He's all-perfect. And if He is not all-perfect, then there is no value of His instruction. A man with defect in knowledge cannot impart instructions. His instructions... Therefore the whole Vedic process is parampara system. Parampara system means that I cannot deviate. I cannot make any interpretation. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. You'll find in the Fourth Chapter. Now we are reading Second Chapter. You'll find, as we have explained in the introduction of Bhagavad-gita, that because... Just like I am speaking to you. I am an imperfect person. I cannot give you any knowledge. I cannot manufacture any knowledge. If I do that, then I shall deceive you. I can simply present before you the original knowledge. I can explain it in an understandable way but not deviating from the original text. Now, here it is clearly stated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead that na tu eva aham jatu [Bg. 2.12]. Aham. Aham means Sri Krsna Himself. Now sometimes we make some grammatical jugglery of words, but I cannot understand. Now, aham, "myself," when I speak aham, or "myself," is applicable to me. When you speak, the aham is applicable to you. But that does not mean because there is a common understanding of myself between you and me, therefore I... Now that I and you become one. When you speak, you say, "I speak." When I say, I say, "I speak." That does not mean this "I" and that "I" becomes one. So Sri Krsna says like that, na tu aham.

Woman: Ah, yes.

Prabhupada: He. That means this aham, Sri Krsna. And na tvam: "And you." That means Arjuna. And na ime janadhipah: "Neither all these kings." He's dividing the whole audience into three: "Myself, yourself and they." And again He confirms it, sarve: "all." He never identifies into one. So this is the version of Sri Krsna. Now, if I say that our interpretation of aham, I, myself, yourself, and he, or she, different vision, this is due to our ignorance. You can say. Because I am ignorant, it may be my mistake, that I see differently from you. But Sri Krsna, Lord Sri Krsna, cannot see like that. He is above all this ignorance because He's all-perfect. And we have already defined that the Supreme Lord is full of knowledge. So... He's full of knowledge, supreme knowledge. Now, if the Supreme Personality, with full knowledge... He cannot commit any mistake.

Woman: No.

Prabhupada: How can He commit any mistake? Then there is no meaning of full knowledge. If you are in full knowledge, then how you can commit mistake? So this ignorance of duality, because they say that "We see two because it is due to our ignorance. All, everything is one," but here you cannot apply that ignorance to Sri Krsna. Otherwise, His instruction of whole Bhagavad-gita, which is so importantly taken by all authorities, all scholars, then it is at once rejected. If it is supposed that Sri Krsna was also to commit mistake, or He was in imperfect knowledge, then whole thing becomes rejected. So it is not, not like that.

So Sri Krsna, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He's in full knowledge, and therefore as He says that "Either Myself or yourself or all these persons, kings and soldiers, who are assembled here, they're all individuals. In the past they were individuals, in the present we are individuals, and in the future they will continue to be individuals." Now, one thing... Suppose another argument is that due to ignorance... Just like an animal. It thinks that there is water in the desert, on the reflec...

Woman: What?

Prabhupada: Water in the desert. Now, in the desert, due to sun's reflection... You might have experienced in the street also, during blazing sun. It appears like water. Now, that animal, because it has no knowledge, it is, I mean to say, flying towards water in the desert. Although there is no water. But a sane man like you and me, or a human being, he knows that there is no water. There is no water. So this direction, that there is water, this mistake is committed by the animal because he, it has no sufficient knowledge. But one, a human being who has got sufficient knowledge, he does not commit that mistake. Yes.

Woman: Does an animal make that mistake? I thought the animals...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: ...wouldn't, would, uh...

Prabhupada: No, no. This is a...

Woman: ...not see the water that our eyes tell us that there is a mirage in the desert.

Prabhupada: Yes. I mean to say, any sane man who has got the knowledge that "This is only reflection of the sun; it is not water," he will never go there. He knows that it is useless to search water in the desert. Similarly, if Sri Krsna is in full knowledge, He cannot say that in future also we shall all remain individuals. He says that in the future also we shall continue to be individuals. Now, He cannot give us misdirection. Suppose we, in the future we shall not remain. After liberation, we shall not become, remain, individuals. Then that sort of misguidance cannot be given by Sri Krsna. Just like a sane man cannot direct you that "Just go there. There is water in the desert." A man with perfect knowledge cannot give you that direction. A animal may go there. That is a different thing. Similarly, when Sri Krsna says that "In future also, we, all these, yourself, Myself, and all these, they will keep their individuality," so that is not a misdirection. You want to say anything?

Woman: Sure. But is that what the Bhagavad-gita's saying on...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: ...I mean (being?) a lot to it? (?)

Prabhupada: Yes. It is, it is... I'll, I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you the exact meaning. Na tu eva aham: "Neither Myself." Aham means "myself." Jatu. Jatu means "at any time." At any time means present, past, future. Jatu kadacit. Kadacit means "at any time." Nasam: "Not that we did not exist." So na tvam. So this aham, "myself and yourself," na ime, "neither these janadhipah, all these kings." Now, this plural: "Myself," first person, "yourself," second person, "and these janadhipah," third person. Na caiva na bhavisyamah: "It is not that in future also we shall not exist like this, Myself, yourself and all these." You see? Sarve. Now, here it is called sarve. They never becomes one. Sarve means all, plural number. Here means janadhipah. "As they are now plural numbers, Myself, yourself, and they, similarly, in future also, we shall remain like that. We shall remain like that." Sarve vayam atah param: "After this." This is the clear version of number -- you can note down -- number twelve verse of the Second Verse, er, Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

 

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This is the clear version of number -- you can note down -- number twelve verse of the Second Verse, er, Chapter of Bhagavad-gita.

Now, now I have already explained that because Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and because He has got clear vision, and because He has full knowledge, He cannot give us misdirection. And what is given, that is perfect. So we have to believe that in future, even after liberation... Now, one thing we must also explain -- the liberation, the conception of liberation. So there are different, five kinds of liberation. One of them, liberation, is to become one with the Lord, one with the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti, to merge into the existence of, of the Supreme. That is also another. That is one of the five liberations. That is not the only liberation. That means we all individual beings, we are individual constitutionally. God is the father or creator or whatever, or the source of all life, or source of our existence. Whatever you like, you can say. So we have, we have been created in that way. Eko bahu syama. God has become many. This is also version of the Vedas that many, all these many, we are also god. Just like the fire diffuses its sparks. The sparks coming out of the fire, it is the..., they are also part and parcel of the fire. Similarly we, we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. Now, He wanted to become many. He wanted to become many, so He has become many, and we are that many. So we are not different from God. We are not different from God, but because He wanted to become many, so we have become many. Now, thing is, when God wanted to become many, there must be some purpose behind this. Otherwise, why did He like to become many? He was one, one without second. That's all right. But why did He become many?

So that is a question, one must like to put, that "Why God became many?" So that is, that answer is that because God is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1] -- He's all-pleasure -- therefore, without many, there is no pleasure. Just like here I sit down the whole day alone, but I become more active and more pleasing when you come. Whenever we want to enjoy some pleasure, pleasure is not enjoyed alone. Pleasure is enjoyed with many. Now God is by nature... He's anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). He's always full of pleasure, full of blissfulness. Now, if He wants to become many, it is... He's omnipotent. He can become many. Where is the objection there? He can... He can manifest Himself in various... Just now we have quoted a verse from Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta-rupam means unlimited forms. Unlimited forms. Ad... Still, they are one. In spite of becoming unlimited, they're one. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots, waterpots, in every pot you'll find the sun's reflection. But that millions of reflections, sun, does not mean that sun has lost his oneness. Sun is one. That is also a Vedic system, that we are all reflection like that. So anyway, these many, many forms of God, is from the desire of God. Now, out of these... Because God has got some desire, transcendental desire, to enjoy with many. He enjoys with His own energy because He is all-perfect. Just like if I want to enjoy life, I want family, I want a wife, I want children, I want friends, I want servants. So I have to think before having a wife. You see? Because I am limited, so I think twice, whether I am able to keep a wife, then whether I am able to maintain my children. These things are consideration. And actually, in the present society every young man is thinking like that. You see? Whenever the question of marrying is there, they think like that. But that thinking is due to our imperfectness. Because we are not all-powerful, therefore we think like that. But when we give the qualification to God that He is all-powerful, omnipotent, so He can maintain any number of children or any number of wives. Otherwise, there is no meaning of omnipotent. So similarly, God has become many, and He has got a plan behind this thinking of many. Now, out of these manies, if one wants to merge again into the existence of God, so God has no objection.

Woman: Huh?
Prabhupada: God has no objection. Now, from God we have become many. Now, suppose I or you want that I don't want to keep myself as one of the many. I want to become one with Him. If you like that, that is called sayujya-mukti. So God does not deny you. "All right, you merge into Me." But that does not mean all other manies also merge into Him. That does... Because, individually, I want to merge into the existence of God, that does not mean all other manies... Because many means not only myself. There are millions and billions and trillions of many. So if out of that trillion, billion, one wants to merge into the existence of God, God is all-powerful; why he should be denied? "All right, you merge into Me. If you don't want to keep your individuality, if you want to merge into Myself, all right, you are welcome." Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11]. In the Bhagavad-gita you'll find it, "Anyone who wants Me in any way, I fulfill his desire."

So that oneness, merging into the existence of..., that is not a general rule. That is a specific instance only, that if anyone wants to merge into the existence of God, he can do that. God has no objection. But if others... That does (not) mean that everyone gener..., as a rule merges, merge into the existence of God. There are others. Just like another example. You take it. Generally, this example is given, that the, the rivers, the rivers all flow into the sea, and they become one. Or the drop of the ocean water, when put into the ocean, the drop of the ocean water loses his existence. It become one with the... That's all right. Now, if you have seen the ocean, there are always millions and millions of drops coming out by the dashing of the waves. You see? That is going on continually. And some of them again falling into the water. They lose their... They lose the drop existence. But that does not mean that that creation of drop is stopped. Even from that example. You see? And because the river waters comes and, I mean to say, merges into the sea water, that does not mean the river, all rivers are stopped. The rivers are there. Another example: now, there are many aquatic animals within the water. They are also... Now, as the drop of the water emerges from the sea water and again merges into the sea water, so that is a nice example, but these fishes, these aquatic animals, they are also born in that water. Nobody has given these aquatic animals from anywhere else. They are... They have taken their birth from that water. They are also born of the water. Just like the drops of the water also born of the water, similarly, these living aquatic animals, they are also born of the water. Now, the drop of the water merges into the water and loses his existence -- that does not mean -- there are other living entities within the water, millions and billions -- they also lose their identity. They keep their identity.

So some of the living beings may merge into the existence of the God. That is called sayujya-mukti. But there are many millions and millions and billions of... Ananta. They want to keep their existence and enjoy the association of God. That is the difference between jnani and bhakta. The jnani's ultimate aim is nirveda-brahmanusandhanam(?). They want to become one with the Supreme. He does not, a jnani does not want to keep himself separately from the Supreme. He wants into the merging.

Woman: You mean the jnani yogi?

Prabhupada: Jnani. Yes. Jnani, not yogi.

Woman: Jnani.

Prabhupada: Jnani. Jnani means philosophers, empiric philosophers. Empiric philosophers. Brahma, Brahmavadis, those who want to merge into the existence of Brahman. They are called jnanis. And those who meditate on God within himself, they are called yogis. This is general definition. And those, those who worship the Supreme as Personality of Godhead, they are devotees.

Woman: Yes. The name? The name? You say jnani...?

Prabhupada: Jnani, yogi and bhakta.

Woman: Bhakta.

Prabhupada: Bhakta.

Woman: The other one...

Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakta.

Woman: Jnani, how do you spell it?

Prabhupada: J, N, A, N, I. "Jan-nanee. Jan-nanee." The spelling is "Jananee." So the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Truth is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, the Supreme Truth. Now, according to... Because we have already explained that each and every individual being has got his individual minute quantity of independence. God has given us. Now, by our independence, I may accept as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, I may accept Him that the all-pervading Supersoul, and I may accept Him that the all-pervading Brahman, impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence. So all these are applicable to the Absolute Truth. Now, it depends on my discretion whether I want to merge into the existence of the Lord, whether I want to keep my individuality and associate with Him as friend, as father, mother, as wife. Just like we have got relation. So that depends on my discretion. But now, comparatively, if we study that if we merge into the existence of God, the, at least, in the opinion of the bhaktas, that is not acceptable. That is not acceptable. They know that, that "God has created me as an individual being, so He has got some purpose. And because He has created me for some purpose, I must fulfill that purpose. I must fulfill that purpose."

Now, I can give you another crude example that a, that a, from the mother... Suppose a few children, half a dozen children, has come. Now, what is the intention of the mother? The mother or the father... Mother or father, same thing -- who has taken the responsibility of the children. They, they want to be happy. Otherwise, why people are taking so much trouble, whole day, for, I mean, maintaining their children? There is some happiness. Nobody wants to take so much trouble, but at home, because there is some happiness by seeing the children, by maintaining the children, by..., therefore he takes so much trouble. Now, at the same time, the children has also some troubles of life. Now, if one of the children requests the mother, "Mother, you have given birth to me, and... But I find my life very troublesome. Better you again put me in your belly." (laughs) Is it a good proposal? It is not at all a good proposal. This is a disappointment. "Oh," the mother says, "oh, my dear son, you are in trouble. Therefore you want to come again into my belly? You want to merge into my existence again?" Well, the mother is unable. He cannot, she cannot do that. But if, if such kind of request is made to the Supreme Lord, He can accept that. For Him it is not possible, impossible. "All right, you want to merge into My existence? Come on. Come on. I, I, I take you." But the thing is whether the son who requests the mother or the father like that, he is sane person. The sane son, the intelligent son, will think, "Well, my father and my mother, they have brought up me. They have begotten me. They have given us our life. All right, let us serve our parents. Let them be happy. Our activities so that..." That is the natural way. That is the natural... Because God has created us in so many individual living entities, we are all parts and parcel. Just like father and son or mother and son. Sons are the parts of the body of the mother. The, we get this body from mother's body. That's a fact. Similarly, it is, it... You'll find in Bhagavad-gita also that this material nature is the mother, and the Lord is the father, and the father is giving seed into the womb of the mother, and we have all come out from the... We have got this material body. Similarly, you see?

Now, this point, that to merge into the existence of the Supreme Lord is, if it is proposed by some individual soul or individual living entity, that can be accepted by the Lord, sayujya-mukti... That is not very difficult. But the thing is whether we should think like that, whether it is good for us. That is my choice. If want to merge into... You follow me, what I say? If I want to merge into the existence of God... Just like if your son wants again to merge into your existence, because you are human being, it is not possible for you, but it is not impossible for God. God can accept: "All right, you want to merge into Me. All right, come on. I accept it." So that not impossible. So that merging into the existence of God. There is a liberation like that. But that is not the ultimate. You want to speak something?

Woman: Jnani, you say, means liberation from reading literature.

Prabhupada: Yes, but there are other individuals who... There are other individuals who may not agree with that kind of salvation or liberation. They want to keep their individuality and enjoy the Supreme Personality of Godhead's company. Just like Arjuna. In the Fourth Chapter you will, you will see that Arjuna... When Sri Krsna said to Arjuna that "This system of yoga was first explained to the sun-god, sun-god," now Arjuna inquired, "How is that? You are... You are my contemporary. How You say that You advised or instructed this yoga system to sun? That means crores and crores, I mean, millions and billions of years before. How is that?" This is, mean, a very sane question. Now, in that question the Lord answered, "My dear Arjuna, yourself and Myself, we took birth many times, but you have forgotten. I, I, I have not forgotten."

Now, now, here you see that because Arjuna has taken up that transcendental bliss, that he wants to keep with the company of the Lord. So if anyone wants to keep company with the Lord, he's welcome. There are five different kinds of relation with God: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya... I think I gave you one day...

Woman: Yes. Could you give them by name, the five kinds of liberation? In English?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. I'll give.

Woman: One is with the Lord, we merge, we merge...

Prabhupada: Mergence means... The merging into the existence, this is called sayujya-mukti. Sayujya-mukti.

Woman: No, but in English.

Prabhupada: English, there is... Sayujya, to become one.

Woman: Yes, to become one.

Prabhupada: Sayujya-mukti means liberation by becoming one with the Lord.

Woman: Yes. Okay. What is number two?

Prabhupada: Yes. I'll explain. Yes.

Student: Mukti?

Prabhupada: Mukti means liberation. Mukti means... Now we are in egoistic condition in this material body. Now, mukti means when we shall be liberated from the material existence and we shall get our spiritual life, proper. That is called mukti. Just like a person is suffering from disease, fever. Now, when he, he's out of feverish attack, he's called mukta. Rogya-mukta. Rogya-mukta means he's free from the disease. Similarly, mukti means because we are now encumbered with this material body, as soon as we become free from this material conception of life, that is called mukti. That is called brahma-bhuta. Brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20]. Generally, Dr. Mishra is teaching this, that you, what you think of your, what I am, I am not this body. That is the whole process of his teaching. So we have already discussed. This is same point is being discussed nicely in Bhagavad-gita, that we are not this body. Our material identification is wrong. So we have come to that point, come to that stage, you see, that I am not this body. And because I am not this body, therefore I have no connection with this world -- because my connection with this world is due to my body, is due to my body. I consider one woman my wife because I have got bodily connection. I, I consider somebody my son because bodily connection. I consider this town, this country my country because my body has grown up from this land. So in this way, as soon as one become free from the conception of identification of this body, he becomes a liberated soul. Therefore you'll find in Bhagavad-gita in the later chapters that as soon as one emerges out from this conception, he is prasannatma: "Oh, I have no responsibility. I have no responsibility." Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as he is liberated... Just like a man freed from the attack of fever or any disease, when he's recovered, he finds himself happy: "Oh, now my disease is now gone. I am happy." Similarly, as soon as we come to the spiritual understanding of our existence, then our life will be joyful. That is a sign. Whether a man is freed from this material existence, mukti... Mukti can be achieved even in this life. Mukti. Mukti. It is, it is, it is a question of conviction. Now we are convinced firmly that "I am this material body. And as soon as... I gave you the other day the example of Socrates. He was convinced that "I am not this body." So he was offered poison. He gladly took it, that "What is that? I shall take it!" Because he was mukta-purusa. It is... He is liberated soul. "Never mind. You want to kill me. Kill me. I don't mind. All right." So this liberation. This is liberation.

Now, this liberation is divided into five. There are five kinds of liberation. One of the liberation is to merge into the existence. We, we, we... Our birth was from the Supreme Absolute. Now, after liberation, we merge into the existence of the Supreme. That is called sayujya-mukti. Now, besides this sayujya-mukti, there are other five muktis which, we, the Vaisnava sampradaya, or the devotees, the Lord's devotees, they accept. They, they, practically, those who are pure devotees, they do not want any kind of mukti. They do not, even they are offered. They are simply after the service of the Lord. They are prepared to suffer any kind of suffering. They are not affected by all those sufferings. What they want? Pure devotees? They want that "I must serve the Supreme Lord." That is their mission. So anyway, these bhaktas, or the devotees of the Lord, for them there are other four kinds of mukti. And what is that? This is sayujya-mukti, to become one with the... Now, there is... Then sarupya, sarupya-mukti. Sarupya-mukti means the spiritual body becomes as... The features of the spiritual body becomes just like the Supreme Lord. Just like Narayana. Narayana has got four hands with sankha, cakra, gada, padma, and with the lotus flower, conchshell, club and wheel. So, so everyone who takes that sarupya-mukti just become just like the... His feature of the body become just like the Lord. That is called sarupya-mukti.

Woman: That is S, A, R, U...

Prabhupada: S, A, R, U, P, Y, A. Sarupya. Yes. Sarupya. This is called sarupya-mukti. And...

Woman: Mukti, or mukhi?

Prabhupada: Mukti, yes.

Woman: And three?

Prabhupada: And three... The two I have explained, sayujya and sarupya. Then salokya. Salokya. Salokya means you can, one can, get habitation, residence, in the same planet where God is there. That is salokya. And then the next is sarsti. Sarsti. S, A, R, S, T, I, sarsti. Sarsti means to get the same opulence. As I have already explained, opulence, he, he gets all the opulences as the Lord has got. He becomes so..., as good as Lord, becomes so powerful. This is called sarsti. And, and the last is samipya. Samipya means he is always in the company of the Lord. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is always... Whenever Lord takes His incarnation, Arjuna is there. Arjuna is there. Samipya. They are never separated. Just like a husband and wife, never separated. You see. Or the father and the son. Of course, nowadays the question is different, but generally, the family members, they all remain together. Samipya. And the father and the boys and wife and..., they remain together. So there is samipya-mukti. Samipya-mukti means to remain always as associate of the Lord. That is samipya-mukti.

So these five kinds of muktis are there, and the, the purport is that even after liberation, we, the living entities, they keep their individuality. Just like as associate of the Lord, as the resident of the Lord's planet or to have the bodily features of the Lord, in so many ways. And one can merge into the existence of the Lord. That is also accepted. So simply merging into the existence of God, that is not the only liberation. That is one of the liberation. But the, the devotees of the Lord, they do not accept such kind of... They do not want to merge. They want to enjoy the company. That is the difference between... Both of them become liberated. Merging into the existence of God, that is also liberation. And to keep individuality and enjoy the company of the Lord, that is also liberation. Yes?

Woman: Therefore, may I say that the four other ones are what you call the demigods...?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are not liberated.

Woman: They are not liberated?

Prabhupada: No. Demigods, they are just like delegated officers for maintaining this material existence. Just like sun. Sun is a demigod. Sun. The moon.

The moon is a demigod.

Woman: And what about the masters who are working...?

Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?

Woman: The masters who are working the...?

Prabhupada: Master is the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, but there are different masters, or higher degrees that you were calling. You were mentioning before. The sound(?) of different degrees who are working on planets...?

Prabhupada: Yes, different degree. Just like everyone is servant of the Lord.

Woman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But did you...? That's not what you called...

Prabhupada: Degree. No degrees. Now suppose, suppose, take for example the sun. The chief, chief living entity or the chief man, or chief living being in the sun planet. Now his position and my position, there is vast difference. He has, he is maintaining such a planet and he is situated there as the chief man or the chief living being. So his degree of power is far, far greater than the degree of power here like President Johnson or something else. You see? So that degree of power does not make him that he's God. He's not God. He's also servant of God. Anyone, even Brahma, anyone. There is a verse in the Caitanya-caritamrta: ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya [Cc. Adi 5.142]. That the individual living entities, there are so many, multi, but all of them, they are servant of the Lord. There may be, their position may be upper or lower in different degrees, but that does not make them equal with the Lord. The Lord is different. That is also mentioned in the Patanjali yoga system. Lord is Supreme. He's the great. He's the greatest. Asamaurdhva. Nobody is equal with Him and nobody is greater than Him. That means nobody's equal with Him, nobody's greater than Him, everybody is lower than Him. So is that question solved?

Woman: Yes. Now you were using very often the name of demigods and therefore I...

Prabhupada: Now demigods, demigods are just like you and me. Demigods, just like you and me. But they have got a degree of power than me and you.
Woman: Now you just said the sun.

Prabhupada: Sun, yes. He's also a living...

Woman: The sun is a planet.

Prabhupada: Sun is a planet, but there is a controlling deity also.

Woman: Yes.

Prabhupada: There is a control... Just like here, in this planet, when you go up, you see it is ball, but in this ball there are so many controlling deities here also. President Johnson, prime minister of India, this and that and so many things. But when you go up you see just like a ball. So when you come here you find... Similarly, from the distance of ninety millions of miles you can see the sun just like a ball, but it is not ball. It is a, it is a far, far greater than this planet, and there are cities and there men and there are persons and there are everything. But they are made up of fire. Their body's made of fire. Your body's made of earth. That is the difference. Just like in the water you cannot live because your body is made differently that you cannot live in the water. Similarly, the aquatics in the water, they cannot live in the land. Similarly, because I cannot live in the sun planet due to this, my body, that does not mean there are no living beings. There are living beings. After all, the whole material world is made of five elements, earth, water, fire, air and ether. Now these five elements, in some planet you'll find earth predominant. In some planet you'll find water predominant. In some planet you'll find fire predominant. In some planet you'll find air predominant. But that does not mean that there are no living entities. There are living entities. The sun planet is a planet where is, where fire is predominant. Now, according to medical science that by heat and fire of the germs are killed. But in the fire also there are living entities. Just like Dr. Mishra was giving the example the other day about opium. Now opium is a death poison. Death poison. But in the opium also you'll find some worms.

Woman: Some what?

Prabhupada: Worms.

Woman: Worms?

Prabhupada: Yes. How it is possible? They are also living entities. If I, if I take a drop of opium, I die. But they are living and they are eating and they are living there. So because it is impossible for me to eat opium and live, you cannot say that there are other livi..., that there cannot be no living entities there. Similarly you have experience that you cannot live in the fire. That does not mean that in the sun planet there is no living entities. There are living entities. Because in Bhagavad-gita you'll find that living soul, as it is, it is not burnt by fire. It is not burned by fire. Because it is spiritual. The material elements has no power to destroy it. It is not burnt by fire. So in every planet it is concluded that every planet there are living entities. There are intelligent beings. And because in the higher planets there are more intelligent persons, beings, they are called demigods. The demigods means they have got, practically, qualification almost equal to the Supreme Lord. They have got such qualification.

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: And deevas.

Prabhupada: Dee..? Deevas? Devas.

Woman: Devas.

Prabhupada: That is the Sanskrit word. Real deva means the Supreme Lord, and when you call devas... These devas, they are all obedient servant of the Lord. They are very powerful. So when you become obedient devotees of the Lord we can get such post. In the sun planet, in the moon planet, in the heavenly planets, in the Brahma planets. So the devotees of the Lord, they are not loser. They get more power. For controlling power. Therefore they are called devas, devas. Devas means those who are the... There are two words used in Sanskrit, devas and asuras. Asuras. Now the definition of these devas and asuras are like this: visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva asuras tad-viparyayah. Asuras tad-viparyayah. Visnu-bhakta. Those who are devotees of the Lord, they are devas. This is the difference between devas. Devas, devas and asuras does not mean that asura has got a very ugly face. No. Even a very beautiful man, he can be asura. He can be a... And even a very ugly man, he can be deva. Just like Hanuman. Hanuman was a beast. He was not even man. He was animal. He, he comes from the monkey species of life. But he's a great devotee of Lord Ramacandra. So he's deva. So visnu-bhaktah smrto daiva. Those who are unalloyed devotees of the Lord, they are called devas. And those who are against the obedience of the Lord, they are called asuras. Anyone. It does not mean human being, or the, anyone. But in the higher planets you'll find all the inhabitants there, they're all great devotees of the Lord. Therefore they are called devas, demigods. And therefore they have been entrusted with the management of this material world. Just like confidential persons are given responsible post in government. Similarly, because they are devotees of the Lord they have been awarded this post, to be sun-god, to be moon-god, to be Indra, heavenly god, to Brahma, like that, so many, Marici and so many... You see? Yes?

Woman: Are they working a lot with the vibrations of music?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: With music?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everything is there. Why do you think that only here in this planet everything is there and there is nothing? This is our foolishness. Just like you have never been to India, but...

Woman: Not yet.

Prabhupada: No, no. I am giving you an example. If you think that the Indians, they do not eat, they do not sleep, they do not marry, that is your madness.

Woman: That is my what?

Prabhupada: That is your madness. If you think that Indians do not eat or Indians... Because you have not seen them, but if you... As soon as you know they are also human beings like us... Just like as for my example. When I was in India I was thinking of America something wonderful.

Woman: Then you haven't seen everything yet.

Prabhupada: Now I see here there is not at all any difference. The only difference is that you people are fair complexioned, your bodies are white and they are colored or they are not so white. But there are white men also. In India you'll find varieties of color, beginning from this American, European color down to the black negro color. You find in India. We have so many colors. And actually I give you my frank admission that when I was in India I was thinking the Americans may be of different type of people or they may be thinking in otherwise. They may be... So, so many differences. But here I see there is no difference at all. No difference at all. Only some bodily features. Even I study the pigeons, I see, oh, this same pigeons are here, what, playing just like Indian pigeons. Even I see the sparrow. So there is no difference.

Woman: There is.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: There is. Besides the sparrows, the other birds, as a rule, here in America are bigger than the birds in Europe.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman: The same kind of bird are bigger here.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I admit that. I admit that. They are stout and strong. They are stout and strong. Yes. The squirrel, I see. I saw the

squirrel in the park. Oh, they are also bigger.

Woman: They are bigger.

Prabhupada: They are bigger. That is also natural. You see. Just like in African people. They are taller. They are taller than the Aryan people, even in your, this black negroes, they are taller than American people. So there is little difference of course. That is all right. But on the primary facie, prima facie, there is no difference. Similarly, in the sun planet, in the moon planet, there are also human beings like us, and they are called devas because they are high, intellectual. They are all very powerful than ourself, and they have got different bodies with different power and everything. Otherwise, there is no question... Even great scientists like Dr. Meghanatha Sar(?) in India, he, he said that there is no reason to disbelieve that in other planets there is no life. How can you? Just like because you have not seen India you cannot say, "Oh, there, there is no living being. It is vacant." So these people are going to the moon planet. They are saying it is full of dust. It is full of clay, or something like that. All these foolishness. You see? That means they have not reached. Outside they take some photo and they come out.

Woman: They announced today on the radio they've seen a lot of flying saucers.

Prabhupada: Yes. Let them talk all nonsense. But we have got information that this moon planet is a very nice planet, and the inhabitants there, they are very intelligent and the people who perform pious work here in this planet, they are promoted, promoted to the moon planet. And it is very cold also. Just like your European countries and American countries because, due to... You have come from America. America, European countries, people are accustomed to drink because due to the cold climate. Indians are not accustomed. But your drinking is necessary thing in Europe. Similarly, this moon planet is so cold that they live by drinking soma-rasa. There is a kind of liquor which is called soma-rasa. Yes. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa. Soma-rasa, here, it is described in Ayur-veda. That soma-rasa preparation is there. If anyone can prepare that soma-rasa, and anyone can drink that soma-rasa, he becomes immortal. That means his duration of life increases. Increases. So anyway, these descriptions are there. So there are intelligent living beings there also.

Woman: What kind of bodies do they have?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Woman: What kind of bodies...

Prabhupada: The body may be different. Just like your body is different from me.

Woman: Yes, but we're the same in...

Prabhupada: That does not mean, because you have got a different body, therefore you are not a living being. Or because I have got a different body from you, I am not a living being. So body... Because a living soul is not the body, he might have different body. That doesn't matter; that doesn't matter. Why should we consider, identify with the body? The whole question is there. The body, you'll find your body is different from animal body. Animal is different from human body. Or the so many difference of body. But the four principles of bodily wants, ahara... Ahara means requiring some foodstuff, and nidra, sleeping, and fearing and mating. These four principles you'll find in the birds, in the animals, in the human beings, or even the devatas, or gods, or everywhere you'll find, these four principles. The only difference between the animal and higher, developed consciousness living being is that they are God conscious. They accept the Supreme Lord. That makes the difference between lower animals and others.

I think we will stop here. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- New York, March 9, 1966

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