"Religious or Wretched"

"Religious or Wretched"
July 1, 1976


Hari-sauri: Now they are putting out the same kind of propaganda about Mars that formerly they were putting out about the moon -- that there may be life -- so that they can use that as an excuse to go. I just read a little bit where they say that due to information sent back by the last spaceship that they sent to Mars, now they think that there's more water vapor in the atmosphere than they at first thought. So that means that there's a good possibility that there may be some bacterial life on Mars. So (laughs) they don't... And then they state that the temperature ranges from-130 to +40 degrees farenheit. So that means that there could be life there in a bacterial form.

Prabhupada: And why there is no life in moon planet? Some scientists say the temperature is two hundred degrees less than the zero.

Hari-sauri: Yes, at night when they said, because there's no atmosphere.

Prabhupada: But why these rascals say it is full of dust, and how from the dust so much light is coming, illuminating the whole universe? What is their logic? They have already brought the dust. That dust does not illuminate.

Hari-sauri: Well, they say just like when the sunlight hits the earth, then the earth appears very bright from outer space. It appears very illuminating.

Prabhupada: Who says?

Hari-sauri: This is the scientists' excuse. They showed some pictures taken from outer space that shows the earth glowing very brightly, like the moon. So they say in the same way when the...

Prabhupada: Why the glow of the surface of the earth does not illuminate? It does not come between illumination?

Hari-sauri: Just like when the sun is here everything is bright.

Prabhupada: That's all right, when the sun is there.

Pusta Krsna: The moon is actually illuminating.

Prabhupada: Why it does not illuminate?

Hari-sauri: They only say it reflects the sunlight.

Prabhupada: Kick their face with shoes. That is the only reward for them. And foolish persons accepting. Just like sun is illuminating. It doesn't require illumination from any other planet. Similarly, if earth is also illuminating, why does it require moonlight in darkness? This common sense does not come into the brain of these rascals who believe that?

Hari-sauri: They put their scientific reasoning to explain the different things.

Prabhupada: What is their scientific reasoning? Talking like fools and rascals? If something is illuminating, why extra illumination required to illuminate.

Pusta Krsna: Their theory is that there's a dark side of the moon that we've never seen.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: Their theory is that there's a dark..., that actually the moon is reflecting the sun's light. So there's a dark side of the moon.

Prabhupada: So far the world is, where is the dark side and the bright side? If you compare like that, then so far this globe is concerned, which one is dark side, which one is bright side?

Hari-sauri: No, they say the earth is spinning on its own axis, so all parts of the earth at one time or another receive sunlight.

Prabhupada: The moon does not do that?

Hari-sauri: The moon does not revolve on its own axis.

Prabhupada: Another foolishness.

Pusta Krsna: Just to fit their speculation.

Prabhupada: Just see. Simply speculation and misleading people.

Hari-sauri: There's no basis for it, there's no truth to it at all. (laughs)

Prabhupada: And you people believed that? I'm surprised. (laughter) You are also fools and rascals.

Hari-sauri: This is what they teach in all the schools.

Pusta Krsna: They have little models, Srila Prabhupada, made out of plastic.

Prabhupada: Ah, they are... Let them, we take them as rascals, that's all. Mudha.

Hari-sauri: That other argument that you use about how the moon rays give life to the vegetables... So how is it that there's no life on the moon? If the rays from the moon give life, then how is it there's no life where the rays come from?

Prabhupada: They have never gone to moon. (laughs) All bogus. And this Mars expedition will be a failure. Let them spend millions of dollars. I told about moon planet ten years ago. It is childish, simply a waste of money and energy. I told this. Now it has proved.

Hari-sauri: There's no more interest in the moon at all.

Prabhupada: No? Kirtanananda said "It is inhabitable." Ten years ago I said there's no use going there. It is childish, waste of money. But who hears about us? We know moon planet is inhabited by high-class living entities. (laughs) (sarcastically:) And they will allow these rascals to go by their machine.

Hari-sauri: When they originally started sending sputniks to the moon, they couldn't even land them properly. They would crash, they said that they were crash-landing spaceships into the moon's surface.

Prabhupada: Crashed?

Hari-sauri: Crash-landing. The spaceship was supposed to just smash into the surface of the moon, like that.

Prabhupada: They have never gone. Simply propaganda. Even they have gone, what is the result? Simply with big report that it is inhabitable. (Prabhupada is eating something:) What is this fiber? Finding? What are other things are there in the... Hmm? What is this? (Hari-sauri laughs) Hmm? Do they add anything more? Something reddish there?

Hari-sauri: Sometimes there's a few bugs in it. (laughs) There's some..., it's probably some strands from the mango, fiber from the mango.

Prabhupada: Do they add mango?

Hari-sauri: Yes, sometimes they put different fruits in it.

Pradyumna: Little oranges in there. You can put orange?

Hari-sauri: Strawberry and mango and this and that. They make it with some kind of ice cream machine.

Prabhupada: Hmm? This is not from machine?

Hari-sauri: No, this is from machine.

Pradyumna: You first made ice cream in New York, Srila Prabhupada? Someone told me that in 26 Second Avenue, did you make..., you made them ice cream when it was very hot?

Prabhupada: Hot?

Pradyumna: It was hot, no, the weather was hot, so you made.

Prabhupada: No, you can make ice cream in this, what is called, refrigerator. You can make.

Hari-sauri: Just make thick cream and put it in the fridge.

Pusta Krsna: "Ice" cream.

Prabhupada: (Prabhupada speaks some gibberish). Big, big words.

Pradyumna: They put everything in language. Then everyone is fooled. No one knows...

Hari-sauri: Speak as many big words as possible and don't make any point at all, and then everybody will proclaim.

Prabhupada: So gradually they'll go up to Saturn?

Pusta Krsna: If the money holds out. Actually, they've already sent some exploring rocketships way out to Saturn years ago.

Hari-sauri: Takes several years to reach.

Pusta Krsna: It's such a bluff.

Hari-sauri: How long does it take them to go to Mars?

Pradyumna: Mars and Venus also, they say.

Hari-sauri: Venus is the other one they concentrate... They think that Venus, there's a good chance there may be some life there.

Pradyumna: Venus is covered by clouds. So no one can see what is there. There's clouds all around the planet. Heavy, what do they call, so that no one can see. So they sent a rocket inside or something to go through the clouds to see what is there. Russians also tried. Fermament. In the Bible, they say that on earth there was also..., above the earth there were all clouds at one time according to the Bible. And then at that time men used to live very, very long, and then the clouds went away at some point. They call it a firmament. So the same thing is on Venus. No one can see what the planet is like, no one has ever known. That is also a heavenly, we say also... That is Sukracarya's place?

Prabhupada: Not Sukracarya's, just Sukra.

Pradyumna: Just Sukra.

Prabhupada: May be Sukracarya's place. What benefit they will have? Nothing. This is science. Without any aim, without any objective.

Hari-sauri: What they're doing is entirely pointless. There's no proper reason for any of it. Because they aren't improving their actual living standards by it. They are... It's just like a jnani, he thinks advancement of knowledge, just to simply acquire any amount of knowledge.

Prabhupada: Kevala-bodha-labdhaye. They are described: Klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Simply works hard simply to know things. No benefit. These rascals are like that. Kevala-bodha-labdhaye.

Hari-sauri: That's the futility of the university system now. They are going and they're accumulating knowledge which is worthless for living. It has no practical value, so all the youth are becoming very frustrated.

Prabhupada: Any sane man will be frustrated. Why you are spending money and going there? Kevala-bodha-labdhaya, klisyanti kevala, bhaktim.... Klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye tesam asau klesala eva sisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like the husk... The outer portion of rice? If there is rice, you husk, beat it, rice will come. The rice is not there, simply husk, what is the use of this beating? It is like that. Rice will not come, simply they are trying to beat it. So the result is they become tired, that's all. They only result is they'll become tired. Klesala eva sisyate, that's all. The result of hard labor is tiresome. So they'll get that only, that's all. They are satisfied, "Now we are tiresome, let us sleep." What you have gotten? "Dust." That's all. This is the philosophy. Bhaktim, what is that verse?

Pradyumna: Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]?

Prabhupada: Huh? That's not it. Klesala, klesala.

Pradyumna: Klesadikataras, klesa?

Prabhupada: Klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye tesam asau klesala eva sisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam.

Hari-sauri: It's from the Bhagavatam?

Prabhupada: Yes, it is mentioned in the Caitanya-caritamrta. Any process you accept, rejecting devotional service, the result will be that there is no profit. You simply labor for nothing, as much as to beat the husk, you'll never get the rice, you will simply be tiresome, that's all. Just like so-called religion. There is no faith in God. There is no need of God, and "religion." This is nonsense. Religion means without God? This is going on. God, you can accept anyone, Ramakrishna Mission. Any rascal...He was a fool, illiterate rascal, Ramakrishna. He became God. No standard, and they are propagating Ramakrishna Mission. As we are preaching Krsna is God, they are preaching Ramakrishna. And who's accepting them? For the last hundred years, they are preaching. So who has become a devotee of Ramakrishna?

Pusta Krsna: It's absurd to even think about becoming a devotee of Ramakrishna.

Prabhupada: You have got Caitanya-caritamrta?

Pradyumna: I think it is Tenth Canto. Sreyah srutim bhaktim? I've been making a list of all the verses that you quote most.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Pradyumna:

sreyah srutim bhaktim udasya te vibho

klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye

tesam asau klesala eva sisyate

nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

[SB 10.14.4]

Prabhupada: There is note?

Pradyumna: Bhaktim vina jnanam tu naiva siddhyed ity aha (indistinct) sreyah srutim iti; sreyasam abhyudayapavarga-laksananam srtih saranam, yasyah sarasa iva nirjharanam, tam te tava bhaktim udasya tyaktva sreyasam marga-bhutam iti va; tesam klesalah klesa evavasisyate. Ayam bhavan (indistinct) yatha alpapramanam dhanyam parityajya antah (indistinct) kanahinam sthula-dhanyabhasams tusaneva (indistinct) vaghnanti, tesam na kincit phalam, evam bhaktim tucchi-krtya ye kevala-bodhaya prayatante, tesam apiti.

Prabhupada: Yes. Simply tiresome, that's all. Religion, no God. There are so many religions.

Hari-sauri: Soon as they forget the actual religion then there are so many concoctions.

Prabhupada: "This is our religion." What is religion? "No God." What is religion? Then, those who are godless, they have got religion. Atheism has got religion. Then why bring this religion? What is the meaning of religion? Just see.

Pradyumna: One time we went to a church in Boston to speak. They had only a pulpit for the preacher, and behind, no altar, no crucifix, nothing, just big map of outer space with planets on the wall. Not even any Christian church, but no cross, nothing. Only universe. Universalist Church, it's called. The Universalists.

Prabhupada: That's nice, but give some information of the universe.

Hari-sauri: Says, "Religion: 1. monastic condition, being a monk or a nun, enter into a monastic order; 2. practice of sacred rites; 3. one of the prevalent systems of faith and worship, i.e. Christian, Muhammadan, etc.; 4. human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience, effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude."

Prabhupada: This is religion. Personal conception of God.

Hari-sauri: And then "5. action that one is bound to do."

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything is there. Any one of them you take. That's good idea, but special conception of personal God, huh? What is that?

Hari-sauri: "Human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience."

Prabhupada: That's all, clear. What are the other items?

Hari-sauri: Then, "the effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude." And then "action that one is bound to do."

Prabhupada: One is bound to do. Dharmena hina pasubhih samana. If he does not do, then he's animal. It must be done. There is no question of optional. If you are human being, you must be religious, you must recognize the supreme controller. Otherwise, you are animal. What is the other interpretations? Beginning one?

Hari-sauri: "Monastic condition, being a monk or a nun."

Prabhupada: Just like every religion has got some condition, monastic, is it not?

Hari-sauri: Yes, every religion has a system of priests.

Prabhupada: (Coughs severely for a few minutes) Monastic condition?

Hari-sauri: "Practice of sacred rites."

Prabhupada: So, without reference to God, what is the meaning of sacred rites? Everything is reference that accepting the supreme controller. That is the real meaning. At least, Christian religion accepts God, Muhammadan religion accepts God, or Hindu religion accepts God. So without God, how it can be religion? If there is no understanding of God, the conclusion comes that there is no religion. Fictitious. "We trust in God," but do not know what is God. This is going on. So we have to fight against all this nonsense. Nonsense scientists, nonsense religionists. What do you think? It is not easy-going, sleeping business. We have to fight with so many demons. Otherwise, kava dava adakanam (?), my Guru Maharaja used to say. Beg some rice and bring it and cook it and eat and sleep.

Pradyumna: Kava daka?

Prabhupada: Kava dava adakanam. As all our Godbrothers are doing. They have got a little temple, and a few devotees go and beg rice and cook it and eat and sleep, that's all.

Pusta Krsna: Like being dead almost.

Prabhupada: No fighting spirit. Thakura dekhiya (indistinct). Just make a Deity, show. Our Tirtha Maharaja is doing that. His whole idea was, that "I have now captured the birthplace of Caitanya Mahaprabhu by high-court favor. Now I have got everything. People will come and they'll pay something, and that will be my income for my family." As the caste gosvamis do in Navadvipa and other... A means of livelihood. He has no devotion. He wanted as a means of income. Like the Vrndavana gosvamis, Navadvipa gosvamis do. Little devotion, automatically, there is. They are, after all, worshiping the Deity. But their purpose is different. Just like we have established Radha-Vrndavanacandra not that people will come and pay something. Who will come here, in this foreign country or in this secluded place? So our aim is to make the devotees real devotees. Not for earning money. When we establish a center in a place like this, where is the idea of getting money? (laughs) Who will come here? One, it is a foreign country, nobody knows what is Krsna. And one has to come with so great difficulty, on the mountain. And who is coming to pay for it? After spending so much money, they will come here to pay? Our process is that wherever we stay, we worship Krsna. As far as possible. That we are doing. Not for earning money but spending money. Now Tirtha Maharaja is seeing that without getting Caitanya Mahaprabhu's birthsite, Swami Maharaja, he is attracting lakhs of people. Without the favor of high-court, he is attracting. That is his envy. This year, you were not present?

Pusta Krsna: At Mayapura?

Prabhupada: Oh, you were present?

Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes. There was always...

Hari-sauri: That leaflet that he put out that we saw, he put one leaflet advertising that...

Prabhupada: No, no. Apart from that leaflet... Let him do whatever nonsense... But actually, on the birthday of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, there was the greatest crowd in our temple.

Pusta Krsna: Oh, yes, there was a constant... It was just always packed.

Pradyumna: Every year, before, last year, year before, year before, Caitanya Math, only, not...

Prabhupada: Nobody goes.

Pradyumna: No, only their Math people, and some people they invite from Calcutta. But the regular people all come in to our place.

Prabhupada: Sometimes we went to Madhava Maharaja's temple?

Hari-sauri: In Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana. Who was there?

Pusta Krsna: Empty. Completely no one.

Hari-sauri: They didn't even have any of their own men living there.

Pusta Krsna: They had to unlock the Deity.

Prabhupada: And that is on the prominent roadside. And our temple is off. Still, so many people are coming. Neither there were inhabitants nor their outsider, visitors. Gate was closed, we had to open and then enter. And he constructed temple at least for the last twenty years.

Pusta Krsna: They have no vision of expanding, except maybe their...

Prabhupada: They make this money-making machine. They do not know the money will automatically come you are sincere. You haven't got to make it a machine. Money Krsna will send. But they have no faith in Krsna. They have faith in their own ability. "Yes, we shall earn money in this way, by showing the Deity." They don't recognize Krsna's everything. They think "By high-court judgement, if we capture this place, then money will come."

Hari-sauri: Practically speaking, they're finished. They're on their last legs.

Prabhupada: Similarly, other svamis and yogis they are finding that this Bhaktivedanta Svami alone is preaching all over the... "We, combined, we could not do anything."

Pradyumna: They are all wondering what your secret is. They always wonder, they cannot understand.

Prabhupada: All the yogis, svamis are there. How it is possible? The Ramakrishna Mission, they are working here for the last hundred years. What they have done? If they had actually preached something, so so many American boys and gentlemen are coming to our temple, we cannot give them place. We have to find out some other, and who is going to the Ramakrishna temple?

Pradyumna: They have empty house.

Prabhupada: If actually Vivekananda preached something, out of inquisitiveness they would have gone there. So "We have heard so much about Ramakrishna and Vivekananda. Let us see what is there." Nobody goes. They do not know even the name. And we are already advertised all over the world, Hare Krsna Movement. At least, everyone knows. Who knows Ramakrishna, Vivekananda?

sreyah srutim bhaktim udasya te vibho

klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye

tesam asau klesala eva sisyate

nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

[SB 10.14.4]

This is Brahma-stotra?

Pradyumna: Yes, Fourteenth Adhyaya. From brahmovaca, brahma-stuti.

Prabhupada: Just stick to this principle, then you will be successful. Bhakti sreyah srutim. That is the real welfare. Sreyah srutim means "expands auspicity." (apparently talking about a picture) And they want to become one with God. And here is not one, but God is so lower that He carries the shoe of His devotee. Have they got any conception like this? (laughs)

Hari-sauri: They are always talking about...

Prabhupada: There is a verse sruti mahapure sruti mahapure. You know this?

Pradyumna: Sruti apare?

Prabhupada: Sruti mahapure. (indistinct) yasya linde param brahma. "Let others worship the srutis and others smrtis, all these Vedic literature, and others Mahabharata for liberation. But I shall worship Nanda Maharaja, because in his courtyard the Param Brahma is loitering. I shall worship Nanda Maharaja. He's so powerful that he's made the Param Brahman come here and carry his shoes." Sruti mahapure (indistinct) yasya linde param brahma.

Pusta Krsna: That was by a Muslim who became Vaisnava? Once you quoted that, I think that verse, in London.

Prabhupada: That is another similar verse. Yes, you quoted me. And there is another verse by Bilvamangala, in Krsna-karnamrta. The Muslim, he said "I was searching after the Param Brahma, and now I see here He is playing with the gopis." What they will speculate? Everything is there in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Where this picture is given? (Prabhupada is being massaged)

Pradyumna: Which book is it in?

Pusta Krsna: It was on the cover of one Back to Godhead magazine.

Hari-sauri: But it's in one of the books.

Pradyumna: Lord Caitanya did the same thing. He did the same thing, and it was compared Krsna also had done.

Prabhupada: If there is no such acceptance, where is religion?

Hari-sauri: It just becomes a show. Religion nowadays has degenerated so that people more or less accept it just as some moral code now, because there's no knowledge of God.

Prabhupada: So where is that morality?

Hari-sauri: (laughs) There's no morality either.

Prabhupada: While hunting, drinking, meat-eating, is that morality?

Hari-sauri: No. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation -- July 2, 1976, New Vrindaban


H OM E

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission.