"Cow Care"
Bombay, August 14, 1976
Prabhupada: Fortunate vrsti. Still India fortunate. I'm coming from London, Paris, and Tehran. All fields yellow. And Europe, so much scorching heat and sunshine, I never seen. Especially in London. This time I saw everything has become yellow. Greenness gone.
Dr. Patel: The non-monsoon countries can produce more food than the monsoon countries. The monsoon comes only three months in a year. Those people get rain all year 'round, they can grow better crops. This is how so many parts of North America and Europe, they can have sufficient crops all the year. We can't have it here.
Prabhupada: No, there is scarcity of water also. They are killing the animal premature. They cannot do it. It has come to this point.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) in favor of vegetarians. We are fools raising fodder and this thing and again raising animals on that and feeding on that. Why can't we directly feed on poor animals? I think the human race will survive more that way than by eating animals, but economically it is more sound.
Prabhupada: Certainly. In the Bhagavad-gita it is recommended, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. Krsna never said mamsad bhavanti bhutani. Krsna never said. This is artificial. In the lower stage of human civilization when they cannot produce food they do not know how to do it, so the animals are killed. What can they do? But actual food is anna, food grains. Even for the animals. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Yajnad bhavati bhu... So there is no yajna. There is no yajna. So this sankirtana-yajna is the only yajna in Kali-yuga. So if they perform, everything is all right. There will be cloud, there will be rain.
Dr. Patel: Yajna karma samudbhava.(?)
Prabhupada: Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah [SB 11.5.32]. In the Kali-yuga, the other yajnas are not possible. First of all, there is no yajnika-brahmana and paraphernalia, so many things. Perhaps if we perform yajna and pour ghee on it, immediately government arrest. Ghee can be produced immense. I have studied. Immensely, you can produce, by keeping cows. Krsna has recommended, go-raksya. Krsi-go-raksya. The go-raksya is essential. It is not that animal slaughter stopping, no. Krsna could have said pasu-raksya. No, Krsna has not said. Go-raksya. Those who are animal eaters, they can indulge in eating other insignificant animals.
Dr. Patel: I think go-raksya must be the backbone of the economy.
Prabhupada: No, health, brain, everything. Milk is miracle food. And we are practically experiencing in our farms that if the cows are protected nicely, they can supply immense milk. We are getting in our farms, extra milk. Everyone is eating so many preparations, sandesa, rasagulla, rabri. They are surprised. In their history they have not eaten all these things.
Dr. Patel: They are eating the milk-producing animal so milk will not...
Prabhupada: No, they advertise milk is bad.
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: These Europeans, Americans.
Dr. Patel: Really?
Prabhupada: Yes. "Don't eat milk." Do they not? And they cannot drink also. In Bengal there is a proverb, kule pete ghiya(?) (indistinct). If you supply preparation made of ghee to the dog, he cannot digest it.
Guest: (quotes proverb in Bengali)
Prabhupada: Ha! They cannot digest factually. They get, what is called? That disease?
Harikesa: Jaundice.
Prabhupada: Jaundice. They cannot eat much milk product.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. Cow is the biggest factory to produce protein, first-class proteins for human beings. Instead of taking advantage of the products of the factory, they eat out the factory itself.
Prabhupada: So we see practically in our farm the cows give more milk than other farms.
Dr. Patel: The satisfaction of the animal.
Prabhupada: They are very satisfied. You have been in New Vrindaban with me? No, you were not. So the cows are so happy that... Just like in India. They are walking here and there.
Dr. Patel: They don't do anything. Now they have, they have (Hindi), brought some crossing and each cow, Jersey cows and Indian cows, they have crossed and they are producing more than thirty, forty liters of milk every day.
Prabhupada: One liter means?
Dr. Patel: Two pounds.
Prabhupada: So we have got cows, they are supplying more than hundred pounds.
Indian: This cost is three thousand rupees, one cow. Four thousand. (Hindi) pure cows five thousand rupees.
Dr. Patel: They have brought some Holland bulls and Jersey cows and then Indian bulls, and brought some genetic researchers brought out a new hybrid.
Indian: It is very good cow, very good. Giving thirty to forty liters per day.
Hari-sauri: Those cows we have in the Pennsylvania farm, the two best ones, they're the two best pedigree cows in the whole of America. They have their pedigree traced back two hundred and fifty years to when the first cows came to America. Purebreds.
Prabhupada: In our Philadelphia farm we are selling fifteen hundred dollars extra milk. Fifteen hundred dollars per month. So if cow is properly protected, it can supply immense milk.
Dr. Patel: It was Mr. Nehru, he said that we cannot prohibit cow slaughter. Therefore he made so many wrong things. [break] (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) This is maya. We are...
Dr. Patel: We are praying to end rebirths by krsna-bhakti, and so there is no question of rebirth if we do it sincerely, and it is for the parama-bhakta...
Prabhupada: Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti... [Bg. 4.9].
Dr. Patel: Mam eti so'rjuna.
Prabhupada: That is perfect. Samsiddhim paramam gatah. That is the highest. Why these people, our own people, in spite of possessing Bhagavad-gita, we are so rascals, we are not taking that?
Dr. Patel: I think the degeneration of this country are from the foreign people, foreign domination.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, it was their propaganda, Macauley's, that "If you keep Indians as Indians, you'll never be able to rule over them." So British policy was to make propaganda so that "everything Indian is bad."
Dr. Patel: I think Max Mueller (indistinct).
Prabhupada: No, it was necessary for them to Anglicize the Indians to rule over them.
Dr. Patel: Our differential, or (Hindi) has created all this rot.
Prabhupada: It is not our, it is human society's.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) We allowed everyone to be here unawares. If public corporation, trading company, becomes the ruler of this country, I don't understand how it could be.
Prabhupada: Because we have no, that catur-varna system. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. You have given up Krsna's instruction, now you have to suffer. You do not train brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. So anyone who is in power, he is good. That is Kali-yuga. Kali-yuga means anyone gets vote, he's in power. They can misuse the power. There is no ksatriya.
Dr. Patel: I think that is a wrong system (much airplane noise-indistinct) this open Democracy is not a (indistinct) by consensus...
Prabhupada: No, no. Now, either democracy or monarchy, the population is sudra. So either you make it democracy or any "crazy," sudra will be on the power. So they can...
Dr. Patel: In Kali-yuga, sir, the sudras will rule according to the...
Prabhupada: Everyone is sudra. Kalau sudra-sambhavah. Who is going to become brahmana? We are inviting everyone, "Come here, become brahmana." Who is interested? He'll go to the factory. Instead of becoming brahmana he'll be hammerman. In America no students are coming to the philosophical class or higher mathematics class.
Dr. Patel: Mathematics?
Prabhupada: No. Higher studies, nobody comes. Only technology. The higher class, higher studies class, they are being closed. The professors are getting no job. We have a friend, Dr. Henderson, he is a doctor in higher mathematics, he is not getting job. No students, nobody is interested in higher... Similarly, many other things, and literatures.
Dr. Patel: Here also the same thing, nobody. And Sanskrit practically nil.
Prabhupada: And philosophy class, closed. Here I think also. Nobody... They think "What is the use of speculation?"
Indian: At Kuruksetra, one Sanskrit university they are planning.
Prabhupada: Vedic university. So that is our plan. We have asked government to give us land.
Vasughosa: We had a big article in the Times of India about it.
Prabhupada: Provided government gives us land. [break] ...in Bombay. (Hindi) Palm trees, within the palm trees, such buildings will not have this advantage. I think in this quarter our, this land is the best. This Juhu and Birawallah(?) Scheme, this land is the best. Twenty-thousand square yards full of palm trees, and we have made this garden. This advantage is not available by everyone. They divided the property, this side five lakhs and the vacant side nine lakhs. Fourteen. So anyway, we took both the sides. Taking this side, five lakhs, now this one building is worth five lakhs. There are six buildings. Very high. And we have got six buildings.
Dr. Patel: I put up a foundation of my new house here, it has cost me only foundation sixty thousand. Only twenty-one square feet. Twenty-one hundred square feet. Foundation has cost (indistinct).
Prabhupada: No, it is very costly. (Hindi) So let us go down. (the remainder, meeting with Mrs. Birla and friends, is in Hindi with a little English.) (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- August 14, 1976, Bombay
Wednesday, May 5, 2010
Tuesday, May 4, 2010
"Dog By Action--Human By Law"
Totonto, August 7, 1975
Prabhupada: They have been taught by your rascal leaders, Jawaharlal Nehru and company. These rascals taught them.
Indian Man (2): Jawaharlal Nehru was representing the India for so many years.
Prabhupada: Yes. And therefore he has ruined.
Indian Man (2): He is ruining since our, before born, in 1930.
Prabhupada: Well, that was the beginning, but he completed the finishing touch. Sometimes he came to Vrndavana -- I was there, retired -- to open a Ramakrishna Mission hospital, and he stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning and went back to New Delhi in the evening, but not a single temple he visited. Where thousands of men are coming to see the temple, but he, the prime minister, he did not visit not a single temple.
Indian Man (2): He accepted as spiritual master, some sort of... His teacher is Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi. So he was teaching him the same thing what he has learned. From here he learned all this knowledge which has spoiled our Indian culture?
Prabhupada: No, Gandhi had no spiritual knowledge. He was little moralist. That's all. That was also good. But these men are not even moralist.
Indian Man (2): How can we fast move in India to spread our Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian Man (2): How can we spread the Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: If we go village to village. The village people are still pure, at least not so polluted as the town people, or especially the so-called educated. [break] ...hari-kirtana koro... (Bengali) We held this hari-kirtana in Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay. Oh, at least fifteen to thirty thousand people were daily... Even from the office with coats and pants, they are dancing. And they asked me, "Swamiji, continue it." [break]
Indian Man (2): I traveled all over India so many years, place to place, but I found the Gujarati is one of the best where the people have there some natural-born Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fact. Everywhere -- Gujaratis, Marwaris, Punjabis -- more or less, Krsna consciousness is there. [break]
Indian Man (2): I ask you one question. What is the future of India regarding the Krsna consciousness? The people are so much demonic. It every time bothers me, day and night, that what will happen? The people don't have respect for the olders. They just harass. I was with my wife too, and I found the... We talk about the Krsna, and they just laugh. They say, "There is nothing like that." They made so much fun, the young generation, that "You are a modern boy, and you are believing in that?" Just I found. I can't understand that how we can change over to the Indian future about Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: If we preach, it will be all right. That is going on perpetually, darkness and light. If you bring light, darkness will go out, will be driven away.
krsna surya sama maya andhakara
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
Just like now there is sunshine. Although it is not very bright, but still the darkness of night has gone away. So bring in Krsna consciousness; it will go away.
Indian Man (2): In Hardwar I have been recently, and I met one of my uncle's wife. My uncle's father was a very big mahanta. He was having quite in a big numbers, maybe in lakhs or you can say million, half million to million disciples. And what he was using in whole life, the disciple's money, for his own pleasure or his wife and children's. And at the end of it he took his sannyasa. Only just few years after that, he died. And I found there in a lot of mahantas, they have a temples, they are using there lot of jewels, gold, and money, and they have a business, like that. And thousand of educated people visit, and they believe that this is all they are doing, show off, and there is no God. This is bewildering everybody's mind. Is there any... we have some system that we can conquer those people by means to... Those young generation of their children, they really looking for the truth. I met one mahanta, his son. He is very educated boy. He met impersonalist leader, and he misguided, and they are leading their life just like a, you can say, I don't want to use bad word, like pigs. They are eating and sleeping and mating, same as there are other people doing.
Prabhupada: Well, this is want of knowledge, jnanam.
vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogah prayojitah
janayaty asu vairagyam
jnanam ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]
If one is engaged in the devotional service of Vasudeva, then he immediately becomes vairagi -- no attachment for material things -- and knowledge. But most of these rascals, they are nondevotees. The so-called mahanta, he is not mahanta-mohandha: "great blind." So that is the difficulty. Krsna consciousness movement is to bring everyone to the stage of devotional service to Vasudeva. Then it will be all right. Other platform will never be successful. Simply show. It is not fact. [break] ...also take it very easily that "I haven't got to do anything. My Guru Maharaja is there. He will do everything. I can do whatever I like." The Christians are doing like that, that "Jesus Christ will suffer. We indulge in sinful activities. That's all." This is their policy. It is perhaps in our movement only that each and every individual is being trained up. Others they do not do that. "I have made a guru; then my business is finished. Now I can do whatever I like." (To dogs barking:) Hut!
Passerby: Max! Max! Come here. Come on, buddy.
Prabhupada: Good friends. (laughter)
Harikesa: Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! [break]
Prabhupada: ...ing friendship with dog, then what he will be? He'll become dog. That's all. He will not hear anything. Sada tad bhava bhavitah [Bg. 8.6].
Indian Man (2): Prabhupada, these people, dogs, mostly are atheist? Atheist, they take the birth as the dog?
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless one is atheist, how he takes to dog? Theist takes to God, and they takes to dog. That's it. Not only animal dog, but they associate with a human dog, two-legged dogs. There are four-legged, and there are two-legged dogs-human being, but dog. He is also like dog, although he has got two legs and they have got four legs. In the parks it is by law prohibited to take dog, but he is dog. He violate the dog's law. Therefore he is no better than dog. [break] ...defect of modern civilization -- they are keeping people as dog, and they want to make them human beings by law. They are thinking, "If we impose this law, things will be all right." But how things will be all right? If you keep them dog, how the things will be all right? So we are training from dog to humanity. That is our special activities. We do not keep them as dog. We bring them to become godly. Then things will be all right. Other so-called gurus, they keep the disciple to remain as dog. Please pay him, and he... Asikbada -- he will be all right. This is going on. [break] ...our class begin?
Brahmananda: What time do the Deities open?
Visvakarma: Usually the Deities open at seven.
Prabhupada: So we shall go back?
Visvakarma: Yes. [break]
Indian man (2): ...very important, one question which everybody asks, in India, everybody. They want to see "Where is the God?" They want to see: "Show us how we can see it. We ready to do everything, and we want to see the God. And show us some miracle or something that we can believe it." Everybody is like that. And the people lot of having mystic power, they make the fool of the peoples.
Prabhupada: What is that mystic power?
Indian Man (2): I don't know what they show it, some sort of...
Prabhupada: You do not know?
Indian Man (2): Some ji(?), they make it like that and this and that. They make the fool people. How can we convince that something, that knowledge is there. But they want immediate to know it to believe it.
Prabhupada: That is their rascaldom. One wants to be learned without going to the school. Is it possible? So they are rascals. What can be done? They don't want to go to school and take the training, and they want to pass M.A. examination. This is their proposal. So these rascals should be kicked out. That's all.
[break] ...is: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg. 4.34]. First of all you surrender; then you ask question. The rascals first of all will question. And when he is satisfied, they will surrender. This is not the process. The process is first of all surrender; then question. Otherwise you have no right to question, waste time. [break] ...is the sinful part of water. This is sinful part. There is sinful water and pious water also. So this water is sinful. Drinking of this water is prohibited.
Harikesa: In America they use maple syrup a lot, maple syrup. Is that also part of the sinful reaction for the trees? Yes.
Prabhupada: [break] ...eh?
Visvakarma: No, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hm. Only fuel. They are called fuel. They are meant for using as fuel. [break]
Visvakarma: ...Ontario, Srila Prabhupada, this is known as the fruit belt, in this area. But now they are ripping up all the orchards and putting in factories.
Prabhupada: Whatever they do, they do it for factories so that people may be exploited very easily. [break]
Indian Man (2): ...like your company very much in Toronto and we feel like talk you so much, but we don't have so much time to talk with you. You have so much mercy, so we have not... know so much about Krsna from you.
Prabhupada: So in my absence you read the books. What I talk, I have written in the books. That's all.
Indian Man (2): Personally, we think more greater.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you can associate with me by reading my books.
Indian Man (2): I am reading books Prabhupada. That books are your very, very good and most blessful to us. It is the biggest good will upon whole of universe at present, I think. By that knowledge, from dog to, I have become... I feel like I have something in my property of your books in my home. That's the only property I feel that I have, this one. I was misled, misguided in this country.
Prabhupada: Therefore in the beginning of Bhagavatam it is said, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All cheating type of instruction is kicked out from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Only substance." Vastavam-vastu vedyam atra. One who is really anxious to know reality, for them, it is Bhagavatam. And those who want to be misled, not for them. One who is sincere to get the light, for him Bhagavata is the only remedy. [break] ...the question that "Why Bhagavata is so important than other books?" The reply is there: maha-muni krte kim va paraih. "What is the use of other books?" It is written by Maha-muni Vyasadeva, the Vedanta-acarya. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
Prabhupada: They have been taught by your rascal leaders, Jawaharlal Nehru and company. These rascals taught them.
Indian Man (2): Jawaharlal Nehru was representing the India for so many years.
Prabhupada: Yes. And therefore he has ruined.
Indian Man (2): He is ruining since our, before born, in 1930.
Prabhupada: Well, that was the beginning, but he completed the finishing touch. Sometimes he came to Vrndavana -- I was there, retired -- to open a Ramakrishna Mission hospital, and he stayed there the whole day. He came in the morning and went back to New Delhi in the evening, but not a single temple he visited. Where thousands of men are coming to see the temple, but he, the prime minister, he did not visit not a single temple.
Indian Man (2): He accepted as spiritual master, some sort of... His teacher is Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi. So he was teaching him the same thing what he has learned. From here he learned all this knowledge which has spoiled our Indian culture?
Prabhupada: No, Gandhi had no spiritual knowledge. He was little moralist. That's all. That was also good. But these men are not even moralist.
Indian Man (2): How can we fast move in India to spread our Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Indian Man (2): How can we spread the Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: If we go village to village. The village people are still pure, at least not so polluted as the town people, or especially the so-called educated. [break] ...hari-kirtana koro... (Bengali) We held this hari-kirtana in Delhi, Calcutta, Bombay. Oh, at least fifteen to thirty thousand people were daily... Even from the office with coats and pants, they are dancing. And they asked me, "Swamiji, continue it." [break]
Indian Man (2): I traveled all over India so many years, place to place, but I found the Gujarati is one of the best where the people have there some natural-born Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's fact. Everywhere -- Gujaratis, Marwaris, Punjabis -- more or less, Krsna consciousness is there. [break]
Indian Man (2): I ask you one question. What is the future of India regarding the Krsna consciousness? The people are so much demonic. It every time bothers me, day and night, that what will happen? The people don't have respect for the olders. They just harass. I was with my wife too, and I found the... We talk about the Krsna, and they just laugh. They say, "There is nothing like that." They made so much fun, the young generation, that "You are a modern boy, and you are believing in that?" Just I found. I can't understand that how we can change over to the Indian future about Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: If we preach, it will be all right. That is going on perpetually, darkness and light. If you bring light, darkness will go out, will be driven away.
krsna surya sama maya andhakara
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
Just like now there is sunshine. Although it is not very bright, but still the darkness of night has gone away. So bring in Krsna consciousness; it will go away.
Indian Man (2): In Hardwar I have been recently, and I met one of my uncle's wife. My uncle's father was a very big mahanta. He was having quite in a big numbers, maybe in lakhs or you can say million, half million to million disciples. And what he was using in whole life, the disciple's money, for his own pleasure or his wife and children's. And at the end of it he took his sannyasa. Only just few years after that, he died. And I found there in a lot of mahantas, they have a temples, they are using there lot of jewels, gold, and money, and they have a business, like that. And thousand of educated people visit, and they believe that this is all they are doing, show off, and there is no God. This is bewildering everybody's mind. Is there any... we have some system that we can conquer those people by means to... Those young generation of their children, they really looking for the truth. I met one mahanta, his son. He is very educated boy. He met impersonalist leader, and he misguided, and they are leading their life just like a, you can say, I don't want to use bad word, like pigs. They are eating and sleeping and mating, same as there are other people doing.
Prabhupada: Well, this is want of knowledge, jnanam.
vasudeve bhagavati
bhakti-yogah prayojitah
janayaty asu vairagyam
jnanam ca yad ahaitukam
[SB 1.2.7]
If one is engaged in the devotional service of Vasudeva, then he immediately becomes vairagi -- no attachment for material things -- and knowledge. But most of these rascals, they are nondevotees. The so-called mahanta, he is not mahanta-mohandha: "great blind." So that is the difficulty. Krsna consciousness movement is to bring everyone to the stage of devotional service to Vasudeva. Then it will be all right. Other platform will never be successful. Simply show. It is not fact. [break] ...also take it very easily that "I haven't got to do anything. My Guru Maharaja is there. He will do everything. I can do whatever I like." The Christians are doing like that, that "Jesus Christ will suffer. We indulge in sinful activities. That's all." This is their policy. It is perhaps in our movement only that each and every individual is being trained up. Others they do not do that. "I have made a guru; then my business is finished. Now I can do whatever I like." (To dogs barking:) Hut!
Passerby: Max! Max! Come here. Come on, buddy.
Prabhupada: Good friends. (laughter)
Harikesa: Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! Hut! [break]
Prabhupada: ...ing friendship with dog, then what he will be? He'll become dog. That's all. He will not hear anything. Sada tad bhava bhavitah [Bg. 8.6].
Indian Man (2): Prabhupada, these people, dogs, mostly are atheist? Atheist, they take the birth as the dog?
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless one is atheist, how he takes to dog? Theist takes to God, and they takes to dog. That's it. Not only animal dog, but they associate with a human dog, two-legged dogs. There are four-legged, and there are two-legged dogs-human being, but dog. He is also like dog, although he has got two legs and they have got four legs. In the parks it is by law prohibited to take dog, but he is dog. He violate the dog's law. Therefore he is no better than dog. [break] ...defect of modern civilization -- they are keeping people as dog, and they want to make them human beings by law. They are thinking, "If we impose this law, things will be all right." But how things will be all right? If you keep them dog, how the things will be all right? So we are training from dog to humanity. That is our special activities. We do not keep them as dog. We bring them to become godly. Then things will be all right. Other so-called gurus, they keep the disciple to remain as dog. Please pay him, and he... Asikbada -- he will be all right. This is going on. [break] ...our class begin?
Brahmananda: What time do the Deities open?
Visvakarma: Usually the Deities open at seven.
Prabhupada: So we shall go back?
Visvakarma: Yes. [break]
Indian man (2): ...very important, one question which everybody asks, in India, everybody. They want to see "Where is the God?" They want to see: "Show us how we can see it. We ready to do everything, and we want to see the God. And show us some miracle or something that we can believe it." Everybody is like that. And the people lot of having mystic power, they make the fool of the peoples.
Prabhupada: What is that mystic power?
Indian Man (2): I don't know what they show it, some sort of...
Prabhupada: You do not know?
Indian Man (2): Some ji(?), they make it like that and this and that. They make the fool people. How can we convince that something, that knowledge is there. But they want immediate to know it to believe it.
Prabhupada: That is their rascaldom. One wants to be learned without going to the school. Is it possible? So they are rascals. What can be done? They don't want to go to school and take the training, and they want to pass M.A. examination. This is their proposal. So these rascals should be kicked out. That's all.
[break] ...is: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg. 4.34]. First of all you surrender; then you ask question. The rascals first of all will question. And when he is satisfied, they will surrender. This is not the process. The process is first of all surrender; then question. Otherwise you have no right to question, waste time. [break] ...is the sinful part of water. This is sinful part. There is sinful water and pious water also. So this water is sinful. Drinking of this water is prohibited.
Harikesa: In America they use maple syrup a lot, maple syrup. Is that also part of the sinful reaction for the trees? Yes.
Prabhupada: [break] ...eh?
Visvakarma: No, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hm. Only fuel. They are called fuel. They are meant for using as fuel. [break]
Visvakarma: ...Ontario, Srila Prabhupada, this is known as the fruit belt, in this area. But now they are ripping up all the orchards and putting in factories.
Prabhupada: Whatever they do, they do it for factories so that people may be exploited very easily. [break]
Indian Man (2): ...like your company very much in Toronto and we feel like talk you so much, but we don't have so much time to talk with you. You have so much mercy, so we have not... know so much about Krsna from you.
Prabhupada: So in my absence you read the books. What I talk, I have written in the books. That's all.
Indian Man (2): Personally, we think more greater.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you can associate with me by reading my books.
Indian Man (2): I am reading books Prabhupada. That books are your very, very good and most blessful to us. It is the biggest good will upon whole of universe at present, I think. By that knowledge, from dog to, I have become... I feel like I have something in my property of your books in my home. That's the only property I feel that I have, this one. I was misled, misguided in this country.
Prabhupada: Therefore in the beginning of Bhagavatam it is said, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo atra: [SB 1.1.2] "All cheating type of instruction is kicked out from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Only substance." Vastavam-vastu vedyam atra. One who is really anxious to know reality, for them, it is Bhagavatam. And those who want to be misled, not for them. One who is sincere to get the light, for him Bhagavata is the only remedy. [break] ...the question that "Why Bhagavata is so important than other books?" The reply is there: maha-muni krte kim va paraih. "What is the use of other books?" It is written by Maha-muni Vyasadeva, the Vedanta-acarya. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- August 7, 1975, Toronto
© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International.
Monday, May 3, 2010
"Darwin's Speculation..."
San Francisco, July 18, 1975
Tamala Krsna: ...hoping to bring the buses here to take a photograph with you, Srila Prabhupada, this morning. [break]
Sri Govinda: ...Mr. Candra Ahuja Tir(?). He has loaned us the Continental which we have been using to drive you in.
Prabhupada: Oh. You are medical practitioner? [break] Cooler, cooler nowadays? [break] Then other big, big telescope, how many miles it can see?
Jayatirtha: You can see millions of miles.
Prabhupada: How many million? (laughter)
Jayatirtha: You can see light years away. Many, many, many millions of miles with the big ones.
Prabhupada: They can see four billion?
Jayatirtha: Maybe not four billion.
Prabhupada: Then it is imperfect. The radius, what is called, radius?
Tamala Krsna: Diameter?
Prabhupada: Diameter is four billion miles, universe.
Tripurari: One universe.
Prabhupada: One universe. This is the smallest. Four-headed Brahma. [break] ...all universes taken together, that is one-fourth energy. And three-fourth energy is spiritual world. Ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42], one part. [break] ...asat koti-yojana, one yojana equal to eight mile. And one koti means ten million. So fifty into eight, two hundred, into..., ten into ten million..., it comes. I have calculated four billion. How many millions make a billion?
Harikesa: A thousand. [break]
Prabhupada: Sun is situated in the middle from this circumference, two billion up and down. And the moon is situated above the sun, 1,600,00 miles. How they can go to the moon?
Devotee: They think the moon is closer than the sun.
Prabhupada: They may think, but we are thinking in this way. Who is right?
Devotee: We are right, the Vedas.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...thinking is right because they could not go to the moon. They say they went, but actually they could not. Now they are disappointed. [break]
Devotee: ...Prabhupada? He had some question whether Lord Nityananda ever took sannyasa.
Prabhupada: No. [break] ...went with the sannyasis as brahmacari. [break] ...philosophy?
Tamala Krsna: Philosophy book.
Harikesa: Philosophy book is waiting until...
Brahmananda: No, Hayagriva is editing it now.
Harikesa: Oh, now? Jaya.
Satsvarupa: We're going to do some of the chapters in installments in Back to Godhead. We're going to do Darwin as soon as possible, in a month or two. [break]
Prabhupada: ...philosophy is the ultimate, Vedanta. Vedanta philosophy. And Bhagavata is the commentary on the Vedanta philosophy. [break] ...Darwin's theory. Wherefrom he begins?
Jayatirtha: He begins in the ocean. He says that some fish-type animal climbed out of the ocean and began to breathe the air.
Prabhupada: Then wherefrom the ocean came?
Devotee: He doesn't say.
Sri Govinda: In the beginning on the planet there was great turbulence and the oceans were stirring, and then there was some lightning charge.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the lightning came? And wherefrom the ocean came? Where his philosophy is? It is a speculation.
Sri Govinda: It all began from a primeval explosion.
Prabhupada: Then same question, wherefrom the explosion came?
Satsvarupa: They say that explosion began at time zero.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Satsvarupa: Time zero. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Time zero?
Satsvarupa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question.
Prabhupada: Why?
Satsvarupa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked.
Prabhupada: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero?
Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then.
Prabhupada: So that is not philosophy.
Sri Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter.
Prabhupada: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?"
Harikesa: They say it's an accident.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Aham evasam agre. And Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anadir adih: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. That adi is Govinda, person, Krsna. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. We find from the history. Brahma is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. So He is the cause of Brahma also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy.
Harikesa: Darwin never tried to understand the...
Prabhupada: No, no, he admitted that he speculated. He is not a philosopher, he is a speculator. He has admitted that "It is my speculation. I think like this."
Harikesa: He started his speculation from the creation of life. He didn't...
Prabhupada: Anywhere, speculation is not science nor philosophy. We don't admit. No hypothesis.
Satsvarupa: They call the Vedas speculation. They say the Upanisads are speculation.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, not speculation. Isopanisad, isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], everything beginning from isa, the supreme controller... Where is speculation?
Tamala Krsna: They say that the Vedas are written by man so they are imperfect.
Prabhupada: So you are less than a dog. It is written by man. That's all right. But you are less than a dog. You have no reason, no right. What is your philosophy? What is the value of your philosophy? It is speculation. We don't say, "It is written by man." Apauruseya. They may say whatever they..., we don't say. If somebody says, "Your father name is that," and I know my father's name. "What you are? You are not authority to say what is my father's name. I know very well." So it is their suggestion like that, "Your father's name is this." We don't say that "My father name is..." Is that very good suggestion? You don't know anything of my family. How you say that "Your father name is this?" Is it not another rascaldom? You do not know anything about my family, and you say that "Your father's name is this." What is this logic? You cannot say what is my father's name. You do not know about my family.
Harikesa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological...
Prabhupada: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?
Satsvarupa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.
Prabhupada: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it.
Satsvarupa: Just this year they found a skull that was millions of years older than any human skull they found before.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible.
Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture.
Prabhupada: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.
Harikesa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.
Prabhupada: Yes, of the monkey-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey."
Brahmananda: Actually they are simply interested in bones, but this is the activity of the dog. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, he finds, (laughter) like that. So it is dog's philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] ...history in the I.A., intermediate. So a big professor, Dr. Kalidasa Nath, he began to speak, "There was stone age, simply stone there was," in this way. And I immediately..., that "What nonsense you are speaking, stone? There was nothing?" According to the anthropology of Darwin... From the very beginning, when I was a student, I did not believe this Darwin's theory. [break] ...study one after another, chronologically, as Darwin says, skull, it is not possible at all. For any single man it is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: 8,400,000 species.
Prabhupada: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation.
Tamala Krsna: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study.
Brahmananda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit...
Prabhupada: So that is not science.
Harikesa: It's the most important part too.
Prabhupada: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe.
Jayatirtha: Once you said the missing link was your foot in their face. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; deductive logic is perfect. [break] ...logic means srota-pantha, parampara, sruti, Vedic language, sruti. Sruti pramana. Pramana means evidence, and sruti means Veda. Pratyaksa, anumana, sruti. Pratyaksa means direct, direct evidence, and anumana, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And sruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, sruti-pramana is accepted as supreme, neither anumana nor pratyaksa. Pratyaksa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumana, guessing, that is also not perfect. And sruti, we take sruti from the perfect person, Krsna. He says, aham evasam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply.
Laksmi-narayana: Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that in the beginning of creation He sent forth generations of men among the demigods. So the bones that they have found of those...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Laksmi-narayana: I said the bones that they have found so far...
Prabhupada: Who?
Laksmi-narayana: Of the men that were living so many thousands of years ago.
Prabhupada: But they are not demigods.
Laksmi-narayana: No. But who are the bones... Where are those living entities now? Where they have gone?
Prabhupada: You can go to the higher planetary system and try to see there, bones of the demigods. Besides that, according to our sastra, when Brahma dies, then everything is finished. So you have no chance to see. Where is your chance? Because everything will be finished, you will be finished, everything finished, with the death of Brahma, so you cannot study Brahma's bones. Just like taste of potassium cyanide. As soon as you taste, you are finished. (laughter) So you cannot say what is the taste.
Laksmi-narayana: But the bones of those people that they've found, where are their bodies now? Have they gone to some other...?
Prabhupada: No, no, you might have found in your country. But that is not final that you have seen all the bones. [break] Darwin has... He is now dead. Now, even nowadays they are finding new bones. So how he studies perfect? He is now dead and gone.
Brahmananda: Actually they are finding bones now, they claim, that challenge his theory. They are much older than what he ever thought. So they have to change all the calculations.
Laksmi-narayana: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Laksmi-narayana: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. [break]
Jayatirtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now. [break]
Devotee: If the Vedic culture was a superior culture, how come man gave up the Vedic culture to take to the materialistic life? one
Prabhupada: No one has given up. You are taking up. No one has given up.
Devotee: But five thousands years ago...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Otherwise how you are getting if it was given up? How you are getting now? It was not given up. Who says it was given up?
Devotee: Well, America was formed on a materialistic society.
Prabhupada: America may say, but if it was given up, then how you are getting now?
Brahmananda: Now Americans are taking it up.
Prabhupada: Yes. How it is given up?
Laksmi-narayana: They will say that it became dormant. Not that many people liked it anymore so...
Prabhupada: Not dormant. It is coming. It is coming. We have not lost it. It may be that a few people know it, but it is not lost. It is not that missing bone; it is not like that.
Devotee: They say like in Chicago they're so prosperous, but they don't worship Krsna.
Prabhupada: Who?
Devotee: Here in Chicago, there's so many big buildings and there's so much money.
Prabhupada: So building, what you will do with building? You have to leave the building and go to hell. What you are doing for that? So long, fifty years, you can lick up the building. Then, after all, you will be thrown into the hell. Then what you are going to do about that? If you cannot stay in the building, then what is the use of constructing building? Suppose you construct one building here and the policeman..., "No, you cannot stay here." Still you construct building?
Devotee: They say they live for sixty years, so enjoy it while they can.
Prabhupada: So that is foolishness. You are making, (imitates piledrivers sound) "Dung! Dung!" very solid, but you are not going to live. The "Dung! Dung!" but that's all. This is called foolishness.
Tamala Krsna: I think there was one great personality -- I forget his name -- he was going to live as long as how many millions of years that he had hairs in his head. What is that story?
Brahmananda: The story of the man who was on the beach...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Romaharsana. Romaharsana Muni was standing on beach and was chanting. So Narada Muni was passing: "Then why don't you make a cottage here?" He was: "Oh, how long I shall...?" That, his life, was: when one hair will fall, one Brahma will die. (laughter) And in this way all the hairs, when they will fall -- all the Brahmas will die -- then he will die. And he was thinking, "How...?" Actually that is a fact.
Tamala Krsna: Who was that, Romaharsana Muni?
Prabhupada: Romaharsana. [break] ...basic principle of Vedic civlization. They did not... Vyasadeva, such a learned scholar, he was sitting in a cottage. Lord Siva, such a big powerful, and the whole material energy, Parvati, is his wife -- he is sitting under a tree.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore a sannyasi is always moving around, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. Vairagya. That is required. That is civilization. Vairagya and jnana. Jnana-vairagya, knowledge and renunciation, or detachment, this is the goal of human life. Because he is attached to this material world, he has to take birth after birth, birth after birth. So to save this botheration, one has to be detached. This is the basic principle of Vedic civilization, jnana-vairagya. And detachment is possible when one is in full knowledge, jnana. And this bhakti-yoga process is detachment. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. So it is a civilization of detachment, not attachment.
Tamala Krsna: That detachment is a form of wealth for the renounced order.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the gain of human life. Arthadam. This is meaning. Artha means meaning. Arthadam. Durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human life, form of life, is very, very rare. So one can say, "You will also die like cats and dog. How it is rare?" No, yes, adhruvam arthadam: "Although it is temporary, it will not stay, but you can have meaning of life." Adhruvam arthadam. Everything is there.
Tamala Krsna: The materialistic people say that... When they see someone in the detached position, they say, "He is impoverished." They are so confused that they conclude the opposite.
Prabhupada: Impoverished?
Tamala Krsna: Impoverished means they are poor.
Prabhupada: Then what is the poor? What you are rich? You are whole day working day and night, and we are not working, getting our prasadam. I am poverty-stricken, or you are poverty-stricken? You rascal, whole day you are working...
Brahmananda: For a dry biscuit.
Prabhupada: ...like an ass, and we are getting, sitting, chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So you are poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?
Tamala Krsna: A poverty-stricken man has to work very hard.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Laksmi-narayana: But they will say, "Well..."
Prabhupada: They will say... First of all you see. You try to understand that this rascal is working day and night twenty-four hours for getting his food, and we are simply chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So he is poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?
Brahmananda: That means we're the rich men.
Prabhupada: I am rich man.
Brahmananda: Rich man doesn't have to work, and everything comes.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is rich man. That is the explanation given by Marshall, a great economist. He says that unless one is obliged to work, nobody will work. That is his economic impetus. So the family affection gives impetus to work. He has to maintain the family. That is, he says, that is the beginning of economic development. Marshall theory. [break] ...krsna-sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. When there is attachment on account of Krsna, that is detachment. Yukta-vairagyam ucyate. He is attached to everything but not for his personal self. We are spending lakhs of rupees for constructing a temple, but we are not interested to construct a house or a skyscraper building. We are not interested. That is detachment. [break] We give up. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhe-vastunah: "No, no, we don't touch money." Why? If the money can be utilized for constructing a nice temple for Krsna, why we shall say, "We don't touch money"? Yes, give me as much money as you have got. Therefore you will find in India very, very big, big, costly temple, not skyscraper building. That is the sign. If any man had any money, he would spend it for Krsna, not for his personal self. Personally he would be satisfied with a cottage. That is India's civilization. You will find in South India one temple is more than a fort, bigger. It is impossible to construct such temple nowadays. Still you will find in Vrndavana that broken Govindaji's temple. If you construct such temple, even crores and crores of rupees will not be sufficient. That was done by Maharaja Mansingha, but you don't find any palace of Mansingha. He could have construct a palace there. No, he did not do. But for Govindaji, he spent so much money. There is no such thing, attachment, detachment. We must know that everything belongs to Krsna, and we are servants of Krsna. This knowledge is required. That is Krsna consciousness. And when you understand that everything is belonging to Krsna, then the next sense is that why not everything be used for Krsna? [break] ...theory is lost or not?
Tamala Krsna: Who?
Prabhupada: Bone theory, studying the bone.
Harikesa: I think you've broken the bone theory. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: (in car:) ...so where is your chance to study these colors?
Jayatirtha: That is a perfect explanation.
Harikesa: I'm going to send this tape and have them add that to the book. You defeated Darwin so quickly this morning it was wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can send. You have no chance to study. How you can theorize? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 11, 1975, Chicago
Tamala Krsna: ...hoping to bring the buses here to take a photograph with you, Srila Prabhupada, this morning. [break]
Sri Govinda: ...Mr. Candra Ahuja Tir(?). He has loaned us the Continental which we have been using to drive you in.
Prabhupada: Oh. You are medical practitioner? [break] Cooler, cooler nowadays? [break] Then other big, big telescope, how many miles it can see?
Jayatirtha: You can see millions of miles.
Prabhupada: How many million? (laughter)
Jayatirtha: You can see light years away. Many, many, many millions of miles with the big ones.
Prabhupada: They can see four billion?
Jayatirtha: Maybe not four billion.
Prabhupada: Then it is imperfect. The radius, what is called, radius?
Tamala Krsna: Diameter?
Prabhupada: Diameter is four billion miles, universe.
Tripurari: One universe.
Prabhupada: One universe. This is the smallest. Four-headed Brahma. [break] ...all universes taken together, that is one-fourth energy. And three-fourth energy is spiritual world. Ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42], one part. [break] ...asat koti-yojana, one yojana equal to eight mile. And one koti means ten million. So fifty into eight, two hundred, into..., ten into ten million..., it comes. I have calculated four billion. How many millions make a billion?
Harikesa: A thousand. [break]
Prabhupada: Sun is situated in the middle from this circumference, two billion up and down. And the moon is situated above the sun, 1,600,00 miles. How they can go to the moon?
Devotee: They think the moon is closer than the sun.
Prabhupada: They may think, but we are thinking in this way. Who is right?
Devotee: We are right, the Vedas.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...thinking is right because they could not go to the moon. They say they went, but actually they could not. Now they are disappointed. [break]
Devotee: ...Prabhupada? He had some question whether Lord Nityananda ever took sannyasa.
Prabhupada: No. [break] ...went with the sannyasis as brahmacari. [break] ...philosophy?
Tamala Krsna: Philosophy book.
Harikesa: Philosophy book is waiting until...
Brahmananda: No, Hayagriva is editing it now.
Harikesa: Oh, now? Jaya.
Satsvarupa: We're going to do some of the chapters in installments in Back to Godhead. We're going to do Darwin as soon as possible, in a month or two. [break]
Prabhupada: ...philosophy is the ultimate, Vedanta. Vedanta philosophy. And Bhagavata is the commentary on the Vedanta philosophy. [break] ...Darwin's theory. Wherefrom he begins?
Jayatirtha: He begins in the ocean. He says that some fish-type animal climbed out of the ocean and began to breathe the air.
Prabhupada: Then wherefrom the ocean came?
Devotee: He doesn't say.
Sri Govinda: In the beginning on the planet there was great turbulence and the oceans were stirring, and then there was some lightning charge.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom the lightning came? And wherefrom the ocean came? Where his philosophy is? It is a speculation.
Sri Govinda: It all began from a primeval explosion.
Prabhupada: Then same question, wherefrom the explosion came?
Satsvarupa: They say that explosion began at time zero.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Satsvarupa: Time zero. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Time zero?
Satsvarupa: Time began then, at time zero. And they say that if you ask the question, "What was before that?" that's not a logical, sensible question.
Prabhupada: Why?
Satsvarupa: They say it's a question that should not even be asked.
Prabhupada: No, then you are rascal. You are beginning from zero. How you can begin from zero?
Devotee: Everything comes from nothing then.
Prabhupada: So that is not philosophy.
Sri Govinda: They say it all originates from a giant mass of primordial matter.
Prabhupada: Then same comes..., that "Wherefrom the matter comes?"
Harikesa: They say it's an accident.
Prabhupada: That is another nonsense, another rascaldom. Where is the accident? Nothing is accident, everything is cause and effect. We say that in the beginning there was God or word of God. In Bible they say?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So God was there and God's word was there. That is the beginning, our beginning. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Aham evasam agre. And Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. This is our philosophy, "Everything begins from God." Now you can say, "Wherefrom God came?" But that is God. God existing, He is not caused by any other cause, He is the original cause. Anadir adih: "He has no beginning, but He is the beginning of everything." This is conception of God. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. That adi is Govinda, person, Krsna. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. We find from the history. Brahma is the beginning. He is deva, one of the demigods. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam. So He is the cause of Brahma also. So this is our philosophy. We don't begin from zero or accident. This is not our philosophy.
Harikesa: Darwin never tried to understand the...
Prabhupada: No, no, he admitted that he speculated. He is not a philosopher, he is a speculator. He has admitted that "It is my speculation. I think like this."
Harikesa: He started his speculation from the creation of life. He didn't...
Prabhupada: Anywhere, speculation is not science nor philosophy. We don't admit. No hypothesis.
Satsvarupa: They call the Vedas speculation. They say the Upanisads are speculation.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, not speculation. Isopanisad, isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1], everything beginning from isa, the supreme controller... Where is speculation?
Tamala Krsna: They say that the Vedas are written by man so they are imperfect.
Prabhupada: So you are less than a dog. It is written by man. That's all right. But you are less than a dog. You have no reason, no right. What is your philosophy? What is the value of your philosophy? It is speculation. We don't say, "It is written by man." Apauruseya. They may say whatever they..., we don't say. If somebody says, "Your father name is that," and I know my father's name. "What you are? You are not authority to say what is my father's name. I know very well." So it is their suggestion like that, "Your father's name is this." We don't say that "My father name is..." Is that very good suggestion? You don't know anything of my family. How you say that "Your father name is this?" Is it not another rascaldom? You do not know anything about my family, and you say that "Your father's name is this." What is this logic? You cannot say what is my father's name. You do not know about my family.
Harikesa: Darwin's whole theory rests on the fact, the speculation, that he can show bones. They take these bones and these evidences, archeological...
Prabhupada: Anyway, it is not possible that he has seen all the bones. That is not possible. So taking it that he has studied by seeing the bones, but I can say very easily that it is not possible for a person like you to see all the bones. That is my challenge. How you can say that you have seen all the bones? You say, "Millions and millions of years ago..." You live for fifty years. How you have seen all the bones? That is imperfect. You are a limited person. How it is possible that you have seen all the bones? What is the answer?
Satsvarupa: They say they haven't found all the bones, but what they've found is conclusive evidence.
Prabhupada: But then you cannot do that. If you have seen all the bones, then you can conclude. You say, "Some of the missing." So how it is fact? You did not see it.
Satsvarupa: Just this year they found a skull that was millions of years older than any human skull they found before.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But still, you cannot say that you have seen all the skulls. That is not possible.
Devotee: They will say they have not even found one skull from the Vedic culture.
Prabhupada: Oh. No, Vedic culture do not keep skull, they burn it. Therefore there is no opportunity for you to see the Vedic culture. Then you become defective. Because you cannot see the skulls of Vedic culture. We burn it. So therefore your conclusion is defective.
Harikesa: So the only bones they find are the bones of the fifth, sixth, seventh-class men.
Prabhupada: Yes, of the monkey-class men. (laughter) That's all. Therefore you conclude that the man comes from monkey. That is the conclu... Human being, Vedic culture, they burn it. So they have no opportunity to see the human being skull. The monkeys, they do not burn. So he has seen only the monkey skull, and his conclusion is, "Man is from monkey."
Brahmananda: Actually they are simply interested in bones, but this is the activity of the dog. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, he finds, (laughter) like that. So it is dog's philosophy. Hare Krsna. [break] ...history in the I.A., intermediate. So a big professor, Dr. Kalidasa Nath, he began to speak, "There was stone age, simply stone there was," in this way. And I immediately..., that "What nonsense you are speaking, stone? There was nothing?" According to the anthropology of Darwin... From the very beginning, when I was a student, I did not believe this Darwin's theory. [break] ...study one after another, chronologically, as Darwin says, skull, it is not possible at all. For any single man it is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: 8,400,000 species.
Prabhupada: Yes. Has he gone down the water? Then what is the...? simply speculation.
Tamala Krsna: Factual scientific study would mean to study all 8,400,000 species?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is scientific study. But that is not possible. Therefore your theory is always imperfect because you cannot say that "I have studied all." You simply guess, "There is some gap, millions of years." So this is not study.
Brahmananda: They say even there's a missing link, a part that they cannot explain. So they admit...
Prabhupada: So that is not science.
Harikesa: It's the most important part too.
Prabhupada: Therefore we say they are rascals. And rascals will believe.
Jayatirtha: Once you said the missing link was your foot in their face. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: ...logic also it is admitted that inductive logic is imperfect; deductive logic is perfect. [break] ...logic means srota-pantha, parampara, sruti, Vedic language, sruti. Sruti pramana. Pramana means evidence, and sruti means Veda. Pratyaksa, anumana, sruti. Pratyaksa means direct, direct evidence, and anumana, hypothesis. That is Darwin's theory, something like that. And sruti, Vedic. So out of these three kinds of evidences, sruti-pramana is accepted as supreme, neither anumana nor pratyaksa. Pratyaksa, you are seeing the sky, but you cannot say the length and breadth. You cannot say. You are seeing daily. If you say, "I have got this telescope," so that is an imperfect. and how you can see with your eyes directly, direct sense perception? Hypothesis, anumana, guessing, that is also not perfect. And sruti, we take sruti from the perfect person, Krsna. He says, aham evasam agre: "Before the creation I was there." We take simply.
Laksmi-narayana: Prabhupada, in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says that in the beginning of creation He sent forth generations of men among the demigods. So the bones that they have found of those...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Laksmi-narayana: I said the bones that they have found so far...
Prabhupada: Who?
Laksmi-narayana: Of the men that were living so many thousands of years ago.
Prabhupada: But they are not demigods.
Laksmi-narayana: No. But who are the bones... Where are those living entities now? Where they have gone?
Prabhupada: You can go to the higher planetary system and try to see there, bones of the demigods. Besides that, according to our sastra, when Brahma dies, then everything is finished. So you have no chance to see. Where is your chance? Because everything will be finished, you will be finished, everything finished, with the death of Brahma, so you cannot study Brahma's bones. Just like taste of potassium cyanide. As soon as you taste, you are finished. (laughter) So you cannot say what is the taste.
Laksmi-narayana: But the bones of those people that they've found, where are their bodies now? Have they gone to some other...?
Prabhupada: No, no, you might have found in your country. But that is not final that you have seen all the bones. [break] Darwin has... He is now dead. Now, even nowadays they are finding new bones. So how he studies perfect? He is now dead and gone.
Brahmananda: Actually they are finding bones now, they claim, that challenge his theory. They are much older than what he ever thought. So they have to change all the calculations.
Laksmi-narayana: Even their method for dating the bones is defective also.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Laksmi-narayana: They have a scientific, not scientific, but they have a process how they date the bones. It's called the carbon 14 dating process, and it's been proved defective. [break]
Jayatirtha: ...so many bones, they should draw the conclusion that the big problem is death.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) That is impossible, sir. You lick up your bones, but you have to die. You have to lay down your bone now. [break]
Devotee: If the Vedic culture was a superior culture, how come man gave up the Vedic culture to take to the materialistic life? one
Prabhupada: No one has given up. You are taking up. No one has given up.
Devotee: But five thousands years ago...
Prabhupada: That's all right. Otherwise how you are getting if it was given up? How you are getting now? It was not given up. Who says it was given up?
Devotee: Well, America was formed on a materialistic society.
Prabhupada: America may say, but if it was given up, then how you are getting now?
Brahmananda: Now Americans are taking it up.
Prabhupada: Yes. How it is given up?
Laksmi-narayana: They will say that it became dormant. Not that many people liked it anymore so...
Prabhupada: Not dormant. It is coming. It is coming. We have not lost it. It may be that a few people know it, but it is not lost. It is not that missing bone; it is not like that.
Devotee: They say like in Chicago they're so prosperous, but they don't worship Krsna.
Prabhupada: Who?
Devotee: Here in Chicago, there's so many big buildings and there's so much money.
Prabhupada: So building, what you will do with building? You have to leave the building and go to hell. What you are doing for that? So long, fifty years, you can lick up the building. Then, after all, you will be thrown into the hell. Then what you are going to do about that? If you cannot stay in the building, then what is the use of constructing building? Suppose you construct one building here and the policeman..., "No, you cannot stay here." Still you construct building?
Devotee: They say they live for sixty years, so enjoy it while they can.
Prabhupada: So that is foolishness. You are making, (imitates piledrivers sound) "Dung! Dung!" very solid, but you are not going to live. The "Dung! Dung!" but that's all. This is called foolishness.
Tamala Krsna: I think there was one great personality -- I forget his name -- he was going to live as long as how many millions of years that he had hairs in his head. What is that story?
Brahmananda: The story of the man who was on the beach...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Romaharsana. Romaharsana Muni was standing on beach and was chanting. So Narada Muni was passing: "Then why don't you make a cottage here?" He was: "Oh, how long I shall...?" That, his life, was: when one hair will fall, one Brahma will die. (laughter) And in this way all the hairs, when they will fall -- all the Brahmas will die -- then he will die. And he was thinking, "How...?" Actually that is a fact.
Tamala Krsna: Who was that, Romaharsana Muni?
Prabhupada: Romaharsana. [break] ...basic principle of Vedic civlization. They did not... Vyasadeva, such a learned scholar, he was sitting in a cottage. Lord Siva, such a big powerful, and the whole material energy, Parvati, is his wife -- he is sitting under a tree.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore a sannyasi is always moving around, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. Vairagya. That is required. That is civilization. Vairagya and jnana. Jnana-vairagya, knowledge and renunciation, or detachment, this is the goal of human life. Because he is attached to this material world, he has to take birth after birth, birth after birth. So to save this botheration, one has to be detached. This is the basic principle of Vedic civilization, jnana-vairagya. And detachment is possible when one is in full knowledge, jnana. And this bhakti-yoga process is detachment. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. So it is a civilization of detachment, not attachment.
Tamala Krsna: That detachment is a form of wealth for the renounced order.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the gain of human life. Arthadam. This is meaning. Artha means meaning. Arthadam. Durlabham manusam janma tad apy adhruvam arthadam. This human life, form of life, is very, very rare. So one can say, "You will also die like cats and dog. How it is rare?" No, yes, adhruvam arthadam: "Although it is temporary, it will not stay, but you can have meaning of life." Adhruvam arthadam. Everything is there.
Tamala Krsna: The materialistic people say that... When they see someone in the detached position, they say, "He is impoverished." They are so confused that they conclude the opposite.
Prabhupada: Impoverished?
Tamala Krsna: Impoverished means they are poor.
Prabhupada: Then what is the poor? What you are rich? You are whole day working day and night, and we are not working, getting our prasadam. I am poverty-stricken, or you are poverty-stricken? You rascal, whole day you are working...
Brahmananda: For a dry biscuit.
Prabhupada: ...like an ass, and we are getting, sitting, chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So you are poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?
Tamala Krsna: A poverty-stricken man has to work very hard.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Laksmi-narayana: But they will say, "Well..."
Prabhupada: They will say... First of all you see. You try to understand that this rascal is working day and night twenty-four hours for getting his food, and we are simply chanting Hare Krsna and getting our food. So he is poverty-stricken or I am poverty-stricken?
Brahmananda: That means we're the rich men.
Prabhupada: I am rich man.
Brahmananda: Rich man doesn't have to work, and everything comes.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is rich man. That is the explanation given by Marshall, a great economist. He says that unless one is obliged to work, nobody will work. That is his economic impetus. So the family affection gives impetus to work. He has to maintain the family. That is, he says, that is the beginning of economic development. Marshall theory. [break] ...krsna-sambandhe yukta-vairagyam ucyate. When there is attachment on account of Krsna, that is detachment. Yukta-vairagyam ucyate. He is attached to everything but not for his personal self. We are spending lakhs of rupees for constructing a temple, but we are not interested to construct a house or a skyscraper building. We are not interested. That is detachment. [break] We give up. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhe-vastunah: "No, no, we don't touch money." Why? If the money can be utilized for constructing a nice temple for Krsna, why we shall say, "We don't touch money"? Yes, give me as much money as you have got. Therefore you will find in India very, very big, big, costly temple, not skyscraper building. That is the sign. If any man had any money, he would spend it for Krsna, not for his personal self. Personally he would be satisfied with a cottage. That is India's civilization. You will find in South India one temple is more than a fort, bigger. It is impossible to construct such temple nowadays. Still you will find in Vrndavana that broken Govindaji's temple. If you construct such temple, even crores and crores of rupees will not be sufficient. That was done by Maharaja Mansingha, but you don't find any palace of Mansingha. He could have construct a palace there. No, he did not do. But for Govindaji, he spent so much money. There is no such thing, attachment, detachment. We must know that everything belongs to Krsna, and we are servants of Krsna. This knowledge is required. That is Krsna consciousness. And when you understand that everything is belonging to Krsna, then the next sense is that why not everything be used for Krsna? [break] ...theory is lost or not?
Tamala Krsna: Who?
Prabhupada: Bone theory, studying the bone.
Harikesa: I think you've broken the bone theory. (laughter) [break]
Prabhupada: (in car:) ...so where is your chance to study these colors?
Jayatirtha: That is a perfect explanation.
Harikesa: I'm going to send this tape and have them add that to the book. You defeated Darwin so quickly this morning it was wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can send. You have no chance to study. How you can theorize? (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 11, 1975, Chicago
Sunday, May 2, 2010
"Crossing The Ocean As Fish"
San Francisco, July 18, 1975
Prabhupada: ...many buildings like this.
Jayatirtha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...there is one word, sva-langulena atithi tirtva sindhum. We see sometimes the dogs are swimming. (greets someone:) Good morning. If somebody thinks, "Oh, the dog is swimming, so let me capture the tail, and I shall swim. I shall cross." So similarly, those who are thinking, the so-called scientists, philosopher, will solve the problems, it is exactly like to cross over the Pacific Ocean by capturing the tail of a dog. (laughter) If one thinks that "Dog is sufficiently strong to carry me. So he is swimming, so I shall swim also," so following the dogs, capturing their tail, if one thinks that he will cross over the Pacific Ocean... Similarly, these so-called scientists, philosophers, are like dogs, and if anyone thinks that he will cross by capturing his tail, he will be baffled. [break] ...bomb scientist still living?
Bahulasva: Yes, he's still living.
Prabhupada: So, what he is doing now?
Bahulasva: Now he is retired.
Prabhupada: Oh. No more swimming.
Bahulasva: No more swimming.
Nalini-kantha: He's taking money from the government for his work so that he can live.
Prabhupada: Well, money is everyone is getting. The dog is also getting. Sometimes dog is inheriting the property of his master. But that does not mean he is not a dog.
Paramahamsa: About one month ago there was a very big story in the newspapers about how this student who went to all the archives in the Washington D.C. library, and from known records he compiled enough information to construct an atom bomb. Did you hear about that?
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: He became world famous. So they concluded that anyone who wanted to could get normal information from normal sources and theoretically construct an atom bomb. But they don't have the equipment, but they have the knowledge now. So they're proposing in that sense that any terrorist organization within the next five years will be able to invent their own atom bomb.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.
Bahulasva: He was bribing one city in Florida that "You pay me so much money or else I'm going to blow up your city." And he sent them the plans, "Here is the bomb." So they became very frightened. And when they traced the letter, they found that it was only a sixteen year old boy who had done this. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive.
Brahmananda: You want one like that for Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: They have an organ here, Srila Prabhupada, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower.
Prabhupada: Which tower?
Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies.
Devotee: As they fall off. [break]
Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. [break] This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.
Tamala Krsna: They are simply expert at accelerating death.
Prabhupada: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?
Paramahamsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.
Prabhupada: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. [break] ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. [break] ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Krsna puts it: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Paramahamsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...
Prabhupada: Everyone now. India has also.
Paramahamsa: They're all afraid of using them.
Prabhupada: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, right. History.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.
Tamala Krsna: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Siva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.
Prabhupada: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.
Bahulasva: That is why they have wars, just so they can use up the weapons.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Paramahamsa: The only difficulty is that if one person uses the atomic weapon, that means entire, it would be entire waste of mankind. So everyone's afraid of using the ultimate.
Prabhupada: Well, anyway, they must be used. There is no doubt about it. Therefore we can say there will be war. It is no astrology. It is natural conclusion.
Tamala Krsna: Common sense.
Paramahamsa: That'd mean total destruction.
Prabhupada: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used.
Bahulasva: Now they like to blow them up in the ground. The scientists like to play by blowing them up in the ground.
Tamala Krsna: Or in the sea.
Bahulasva: They create big disturbances.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend -- ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: But a pure devotee is a friend to all.
Prabhupada: Because he carries the message of Krsna. Krsna is friend, and he is carrying the friendly message. Therefore he is friend. If there is a nice friend and if somebody gives information of that nice friend, he is also friend. Therefore nobody can become friend except Krsna's representative. The material world is: "I am your enemy, and you are my enemy." This is the whole construction of the material world. So how the enemy can become friend? It is pretension, cheating.
Devotee: When we go out to distribute books, we try and show the karmis that the devotee is actually their friend also.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, certainly. That is the real friendship work. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,
kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole,
enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'
hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'
This is friendship. "You are sleeping under the spell of maya, and how long you will sleep and suffer in this material world? So I have brought this medicine. You take it and you will no more sleep."
enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'
hari-nama maha-mantra lao...
"Now take Hare Krsna mantra, this medicine."
hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'
Bahulasva: So all relationships in this material world are...
Prabhupada: Inimical.
Bahulasva: Based on this enemy.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Even the so-called love.
Prabhupada: No, that is lust. That is not love. And as soon as my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then you are my enemy. [break] If we take shelter of any materialistic person, that is like to take the..., capture the tail of a dog and try to swim over the Pacific Ocean. It is like that. [break]
Nalini-kantha: ...ing that we should not give people anything other than Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: And what you have to give? First of all you consider what you have to give. What you have got to give?
Nalini-kantha: I was thinking that sometimes the devotees engage in business, selling so many things to help the temples, and you were saying that we should not do that?
Prabhupada: If you are business-minded, you can do that. Do business and give the result to Krsna. [break]
Brahmananda: ...planting a tree. And here are the animals. The tiger and the lizard, fish.
Prabhupada: So what is the meaning?
Bahulasva: This is zoology. They study all the animals.
Prabhupada: Not himself?
Bahulasva: Well, they think they get an idea of man by studying the animals.
Brahmananda: Catching the tail of the dog.
Bahulasva: Of the crab. Then they come to conclude that since all the animals do is eat, sleep, mate and defend, man should also just do that.
Prabhupada: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the sastra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans" -- the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. [break]
Paramahamsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Krsna consciousness be more easy to spread?
Prabhupada: No, threat is already there. But they are so fool that they are not afraid of the threat. Threat is already there. Everyone will die. That is the problem. So who is caring for this? They are avoiding this. They cannot take any anti measures.
Yadubara: So it will take a war to bring them to their senses a bit?
Prabhupada: No, war is going on. But they are so senseless that they will not come to this, so rascal. Therefore they are described as mudha, all rascals.
Tamala Krsna: Very hard to preach to these fools, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Tamala Krsna: These people are so stupid, it is very difficult to preach to them.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Krsna. That will be...
Dhira Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Dhira Krsna: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here.
Prabhupada: You think you will not die?
Dhira Krsna: I know I will, but how can we realize that, come to the platform of realizing?
Prabhupada: Everyone is dying, your father is dying, your mother is dying, your friend is dying, and still if you cannot understand, then how it will be possible to make you understand? Every day you see so many people are dying. Ahany ahani lokani gacchanti yamalayam iha. Every moment, every day, we see so many animals or men are dying. Sesah sthitam icchanti kim ascaryam... But those who are living he is thinking, "I will not die." Death is inevitable but still, he is thinking, "I will not die." Therefore that is the problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. This is the problem. Nobody wants to die, but everyone is dying. That problem this rascal scientist cannot solve. Therefore they are like dogs, and to catch their tail is like that. Yes. And that is the real problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die.
Jayatirtha: The Saivites go down to the burning ghatas. The Saivites, they go down to the place where the bodies are being burned in order to meditate on the fact that everyone is going to die.
Prabhupada: What is meditation? Without meditation even, one can understand, if he is intelligent.
Jayatirtha: Yes. So much trouble.
Bahulasva: So one must become convinced philosophically.
Prabhupada: Why philosophically? Philosophy means, at the present moment, mental concoction. We don't say that. Philosophy means to find out the reality. That is philosophy, not that "I think like this. He thinks like this. He thinks like this." That is not philosophy; that is mental concoction, hovering over the mental plane. Philosophy is here. Krsna says, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam: [Bg. 13.9] "Keep always in your front that there is death, there is birth, and try to save yourself from this." This is philosophy. What is this hot air?
Bahulasva: It is coming from the heating system of the university. They have a nuclear heating system.
Paramahamsa: Is that nuclear waste?
Bahulasva: Yes. They have a reactor on the campus. [break]
Prabhupada: ...they require so many scientist to get heat from the nuclear system, then who has created the sun to diffuse so much heat? How great scientist He is. They have no sense that who has created the sun's nuclear system, that heating the whole universe.
Bahulasva: They can't even measure how much heat is coming from the sun.
Jayatirtha: They say that the sun is inefficient because in some places it's too hot and in some places it's too cold, so therefore they have to make the adjustment by making the air conditioners and the heaters in order to make up for the sun's inefficiency.
Prabhupada: But who is getting this advantage?
Paramahamsa: Big businessmen.
Bahulasva: Actually, the fact is that now the scientists are spending so much money on this research, but the research is only being used in their personal homes. The common people have never seen any of these great devices. This one devotee, Jayarama, his uncle is a big scientist. He has created this radio telescope. So I saw pictures of his personal home, and it must cost about $300,000. All these scientific devices he has. But the people never see those things. [break]
Paramahamsa: ...and for all the success of scientific advancement, they have not created any love for God or their fellow man.
Prabhupada: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Krsna. Then their science is perfect. Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22], education, tapasya, svistasya suktasya ca buddha-dattayoh, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhih nirupito. Kavibhih, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vasudevah sarvam..., Krsna is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutah arthah kavibhir nirupito. Kavibhih means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Krsna is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhagavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original -- everything original. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. Govinda is the origin of everything. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Vasudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Krsna, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air?
Bahulasva: The scientists now, they have been studying the different atoms. They say that the origin is what they call pure energy. And they describe that as a disembodied electrical charge.
Prabhupada: Jugglery of words, that's all.
Bahulasva: Their idea is very close to the Brahman conception, though. They think that one pure energy is pervading the whole universe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: And it has no material properties.
Prabhupada: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh?
Bahulasva: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Then wherefrom this electric energy is coming? Where is the generating house? You cannot say that electric ener..., so many electrical light, they have come all of a sudden, no. There is a regular generating house. So where is that generating house? What is their reply?
Bahulasva: They have none.
Dhira Krsna: You may get some of them to admit that they don't know, but then they'll think, "No one knows." They will say, "Well, no one knows that."
Prabhupada: No, because you are rascal, therefore you cannot say that everyone is rascal. You rascal, you do not know. But we know because we are not rascals. We know. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So we know. You do not know, you rascal. But we know. Then what is the answer?
Dhira Krsna: Well, I said that once to a professor, and I was dressed in plain clothes, and then he became very upset, and he said, "I thought I was talking to a book salesman, and now I find out that you're a preacher."
Prabhupada: (chuckles) He is gentleman. He has admitted. A gentleman, if he commits some mistake, he admits, "Yes." He is gentleman. And if he persists on his mistake, he is rascal. He is a rascal. So he is a gentleman. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco
Prabhupada: ...many buildings like this.
Jayatirtha: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...there is one word, sva-langulena atithi tirtva sindhum. We see sometimes the dogs are swimming. (greets someone:) Good morning. If somebody thinks, "Oh, the dog is swimming, so let me capture the tail, and I shall swim. I shall cross." So similarly, those who are thinking, the so-called scientists, philosopher, will solve the problems, it is exactly like to cross over the Pacific Ocean by capturing the tail of a dog. (laughter) If one thinks that "Dog is sufficiently strong to carry me. So he is swimming, so I shall swim also," so following the dogs, capturing their tail, if one thinks that he will cross over the Pacific Ocean... Similarly, these so-called scientists, philosophers, are like dogs, and if anyone thinks that he will cross by capturing his tail, he will be baffled. [break] ...bomb scientist still living?
Bahulasva: Yes, he's still living.
Prabhupada: So, what he is doing now?
Bahulasva: Now he is retired.
Prabhupada: Oh. No more swimming.
Bahulasva: No more swimming.
Nalini-kantha: He's taking money from the government for his work so that he can live.
Prabhupada: Well, money is everyone is getting. The dog is also getting. Sometimes dog is inheriting the property of his master. But that does not mean he is not a dog.
Paramahamsa: About one month ago there was a very big story in the newspapers about how this student who went to all the archives in the Washington D.C. library, and from known records he compiled enough information to construct an atom bomb. Did you hear about that?
Prabhupada: No.
Paramahamsa: He became world famous. So they concluded that anyone who wanted to could get normal information from normal sources and theoretically construct an atom bomb. But they don't have the equipment, but they have the knowledge now. So they're proposing in that sense that any terrorist organization within the next five years will be able to invent their own atom bomb.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.
Bahulasva: He was bribing one city in Florida that "You pay me so much money or else I'm going to blow up your city." And he sent them the plans, "Here is the bomb." So they became very frightened. And when they traced the letter, they found that it was only a sixteen year old boy who had done this. [break]
Prabhupada: ...the sound of the church bell very much. It is very attractive.
Brahmananda: You want one like that for Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: They have an organ here, Srila Prabhupada, that you play the organ and the bells chime out a melody from that tower.
Prabhupada: Which tower?
Yadubara: That big tower here. They have bells up on top, and they can play different melodies.
Devotee: As they fall off. [break]
Yadubara: ...problem of suicide here, but in all schools all over the country.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are publicly suiciding, and others are silently suiciding. The suiciding policy is going on. Somebody manifests; somebody does not manifest. That's all. If the human life is wasted for sense gratification, that is suicidal. Because you got the opportunity of enlightenment and you live like dogs and cats, this is suicide. [break] This, what is called, hydrogen bomb manufacturer, he is thinking that he is successful in his life by discovering this hydrogen bomb. but he does not know how to save him from death. So it is suicidal.
Tamala Krsna: They are simply expert at accelerating death.
Prabhupada: Whatever he has done, so he could not save him. He cannot save him from death. So what is the use of this scientific knowledge? If the dog is also going to die and he is also going to die, so where is the difference of his scientific knowledge?
Paramahamsa: Coincidentally, the original purpose of the hydrogen bomb was to prevent death, to end the Second World War as soon as possible.
Prabhupada: How they can prevent? That he does not know, how to prevent. He can accelerate. That's all. [break] ...puts before us, "Here is your problem, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Solve it." Where is that scientist? They avoid the real problem and take some childish problem. [break] ...not any hidden problem. It is the open problem. Krsna puts it: janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam, The real seer will see to these problems. There is no answer or solution of these problems. Where is the solution of these problems? Where is the biochemist or the psychologist or the atom bombist?
Paramahamsa: The theory nowadays is that by the proliferation of atomic weapons, that Russia has so many weapons, China has so many weapons, the United States has so much...
Prabhupada: Everyone now. India has also.
Paramahamsa: They're all afraid of using them.
Prabhupada: They must use it. That is nature's arrangement.
Paramahamsa: Yeah, right. History.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is nature's arrangement (chuckles) that you all die. That is nature's arrangement.
Tamala Krsna: When someone gets some power he wants to try it out. Just like there was that demon. Lord Siva gave him power: whoever head he touched, the head would fall off.
Prabhupada: Just like in your country there are so many cars so that a poor man like me has car always, not an inch move on leg. So because there is so many. There are so many cars. So there are so many weapons now. That must be used. That is a natural sequence. They must use it.
Bahulasva: That is why they have wars, just so they can use up the weapons.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Paramahamsa: The only difficulty is that if one person uses the atomic weapon, that means entire, it would be entire waste of mankind. So everyone's afraid of using the ultimate.
Prabhupada: Well, anyway, they must be used. There is no doubt about it. Therefore we can say there will be war. It is no astrology. It is natural conclusion.
Tamala Krsna: Common sense.
Paramahamsa: That'd mean total destruction.
Prabhupada: Well, total or partial, that we shall see. But they must be used.
Bahulasva: Now they like to blow them up in the ground. The scientists like to play by blowing them up in the ground.
Tamala Krsna: Or in the sea.
Bahulasva: They create big disturbances.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...can be solved by understanding these three items: God is the proprietor; He is the enjoyer; He is friend of everyone. They are acting just the opposite way: "I am the proprietor; I am the enjoyer; I am the friend. Because I am God." This is their... Everyone is becoming friend -- ultimately proves to be enemy of the country because he is not friend. President Nixon took votes by pretending friendship, and later on, he proved enemy. This is going on. Everyone knows. Gandhi pretended to become friend, but he proved to become an enemy. Otherwise why he was shot down? Unless one thought him as enemy, why he was shot down? This is going on. Nobody can become friend except Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: But a pure devotee is a friend to all.
Prabhupada: Because he carries the message of Krsna. Krsna is friend, and he is carrying the friendly message. Therefore he is friend. If there is a nice friend and if somebody gives information of that nice friend, he is also friend. Therefore nobody can become friend except Krsna's representative. The material world is: "I am your enemy, and you are my enemy." This is the whole construction of the material world. So how the enemy can become friend? It is pretension, cheating.
Devotee: When we go out to distribute books, we try and show the karmis that the devotee is actually their friend also.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, certainly. That is the real friendship work. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,
kota nidra jao maya-pisacira kole,
enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'
hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'
This is friendship. "You are sleeping under the spell of maya, and how long you will sleep and suffer in this material world? So I have brought this medicine. You take it and you will no more sleep."
enechi ausadhi maya nasibaro lagi'
hari-nama maha-mantra lao...
"Now take Hare Krsna mantra, this medicine."
hari-nama maha-mantra lao tumi magi'
Bahulasva: So all relationships in this material world are...
Prabhupada: Inimical.
Bahulasva: Based on this enemy.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: Even the so-called love.
Prabhupada: No, that is lust. That is not love. And as soon as my lusty desire is not fulfilled, then you are my enemy. [break] If we take shelter of any materialistic person, that is like to take the..., capture the tail of a dog and try to swim over the Pacific Ocean. It is like that. [break]
Nalini-kantha: ...ing that we should not give people anything other than Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: And what you have to give? First of all you consider what you have to give. What you have got to give?
Nalini-kantha: I was thinking that sometimes the devotees engage in business, selling so many things to help the temples, and you were saying that we should not do that?
Prabhupada: If you are business-minded, you can do that. Do business and give the result to Krsna. [break]
Brahmananda: ...planting a tree. And here are the animals. The tiger and the lizard, fish.
Prabhupada: So what is the meaning?
Bahulasva: This is zoology. They study all the animals.
Prabhupada: Not himself?
Bahulasva: Well, they think they get an idea of man by studying the animals.
Brahmananda: Catching the tail of the dog.
Bahulasva: Of the crab. Then they come to conclude that since all the animals do is eat, sleep, mate and defend, man should also just do that.
Prabhupada: Then why he has become man? Why not animal? Therefore the sastra says, "One who is engaged in these animal activities, he is animal. He is not man." Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma idya-dhih [SB 10.84.13]. Actually, man is doing like that. In the jungle the similar animals, they flock together. This nationalism is like that. It is nothing better than that. So our defending, that "We are Americans," "We are Indians," "We are Germans" -- the same thing. Because they are animals, they have this United Nations. The animals will fight, so they are trying to compromise, "Let us live peacefully." That is not possible because they are animals, all failure. [break]
Paramahamsa: Under the threat of nuclear warfare wouldn't Krsna consciousness be more easy to spread?
Prabhupada: No, threat is already there. But they are so fool that they are not afraid of the threat. Threat is already there. Everyone will die. That is the problem. So who is caring for this? They are avoiding this. They cannot take any anti measures.
Yadubara: So it will take a war to bring them to their senses a bit?
Prabhupada: No, war is going on. But they are so senseless that they will not come to this, so rascal. Therefore they are described as mudha, all rascals.
Tamala Krsna: Very hard to preach to these fools, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Tamala Krsna: These people are so stupid, it is very difficult to preach to them.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) No, chant Hare Krsna. That will be...
Dhira Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we are hearing from you and your books that we will die, and we must learn to face these problems as you mentioned, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], but still, even as your disciples, we are not so convinced.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Dhira Krsna: Because we've been brought up in a culture where we've been taught that we will never die. Particularly in America we never even see death here.
Prabhupada: You think you will not die?
Dhira Krsna: I know I will, but how can we realize that, come to the platform of realizing?
Prabhupada: Everyone is dying, your father is dying, your mother is dying, your friend is dying, and still if you cannot understand, then how it will be possible to make you understand? Every day you see so many people are dying. Ahany ahani lokani gacchanti yamalayam iha. Every moment, every day, we see so many animals or men are dying. Sesah sthitam icchanti kim ascaryam... But those who are living he is thinking, "I will not die." Death is inevitable but still, he is thinking, "I will not die." Therefore that is the problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die. This is the problem. Nobody wants to die, but everyone is dying. That problem this rascal scientist cannot solve. Therefore they are like dogs, and to catch their tail is like that. Yes. And that is the real problem. Everyone is dying, and everyone is trying not to die.
Jayatirtha: The Saivites go down to the burning ghatas. The Saivites, they go down to the place where the bodies are being burned in order to meditate on the fact that everyone is going to die.
Prabhupada: What is meditation? Without meditation even, one can understand, if he is intelligent.
Jayatirtha: Yes. So much trouble.
Bahulasva: So one must become convinced philosophically.
Prabhupada: Why philosophically? Philosophy means, at the present moment, mental concoction. We don't say that. Philosophy means to find out the reality. That is philosophy, not that "I think like this. He thinks like this. He thinks like this." That is not philosophy; that is mental concoction, hovering over the mental plane. Philosophy is here. Krsna says, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi duhkha-dosanudarsanam: [Bg. 13.9] "Keep always in your front that there is death, there is birth, and try to save yourself from this." This is philosophy. What is this hot air?
Bahulasva: It is coming from the heating system of the university. They have a nuclear heating system.
Paramahamsa: Is that nuclear waste?
Bahulasva: Yes. They have a reactor on the campus. [break]
Prabhupada: ...they require so many scientist to get heat from the nuclear system, then who has created the sun to diffuse so much heat? How great scientist He is. They have no sense that who has created the sun's nuclear system, that heating the whole universe.
Bahulasva: They can't even measure how much heat is coming from the sun.
Jayatirtha: They say that the sun is inefficient because in some places it's too hot and in some places it's too cold, so therefore they have to make the adjustment by making the air conditioners and the heaters in order to make up for the sun's inefficiency.
Prabhupada: But who is getting this advantage?
Paramahamsa: Big businessmen.
Bahulasva: Actually, the fact is that now the scientists are spending so much money on this research, but the research is only being used in their personal homes. The common people have never seen any of these great devices. This one devotee, Jayarama, his uncle is a big scientist. He has created this radio telescope. So I saw pictures of his personal home, and it must cost about $300,000. All these scientific devices he has. But the people never see those things. [break]
Paramahamsa: ...and for all the success of scientific advancement, they have not created any love for God or their fellow man.
Prabhupada: That is the defect. They should scientifically explain what is Krsna. Then their science is perfect. Idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va [SB 1.5.22], education, tapasya, svistasya suktasya ca buddha-dattayoh, charity and gentleness, all good qualities. So kavibhih nirupito. Kavibhih, big personalities they have decided, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. If, by their knowledge they can establish vasudevah sarvam..., Krsna is the origin, then their scientific knowledge is perfect. Avicyutah arthah kavibhir nirupito. Kavibhih means great learned scholars. They have decided like this, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam, instead of talking all nonsense, "This is this. This is this," if they can scientifically explain that "Krsna is the original scientist, and His brain has done this like this, like this..." That is Bhagavata, who is the original scientist, who is original philosopher, original -- everything original. Anadir adir govindah [Bs. 5.1]. Govinda is the origin of everything. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Vasudeva is the original founder. That is a fact. The origin is Krsna, but they do not find it. Now, this sprinkling is being done, water and air. Now, who is the origin of air and water? You have combined together, utilizing as a spray, but who is the origin of air and water? You cannot manufacture air or water. You are taking advantage of it by mixing together, sprinkling, but where is the origin of water and air?
Bahulasva: The scientists now, they have been studying the different atoms. They say that the origin is what they call pure energy. And they describe that as a disembodied electrical charge.
Prabhupada: Jugglery of words, that's all.
Bahulasva: Their idea is very close to the Brahman conception, though. They think that one pure energy is pervading the whole universe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bahulasva: And it has no material properties.
Prabhupada: As soon as you accept energy, then you must enquire what is the source of the energy? Energy is produced. Just like here is energy, but it is produced under certain arrangement. Where the energy is being produced? If you accept energy, that is knowledge. Now, just like electrical energy is, what is called, generated in the powerhouse. You cannot say the electrical energy has jump over. It is being generated. Eh?
Bahulasva: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Then wherefrom this electric energy is coming? Where is the generating house? You cannot say that electric ener..., so many electrical light, they have come all of a sudden, no. There is a regular generating house. So where is that generating house? What is their reply?
Bahulasva: They have none.
Dhira Krsna: You may get some of them to admit that they don't know, but then they'll think, "No one knows." They will say, "Well, no one knows that."
Prabhupada: No, because you are rascal, therefore you cannot say that everyone is rascal. You rascal, you do not know. But we know because we are not rascals. We know. Krsna says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavah mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So we know. You do not know, you rascal. But we know. Then what is the answer?
Dhira Krsna: Well, I said that once to a professor, and I was dressed in plain clothes, and then he became very upset, and he said, "I thought I was talking to a book salesman, and now I find out that you're a preacher."
Prabhupada: (chuckles) He is gentleman. He has admitted. A gentleman, if he commits some mistake, he admits, "Yes." He is gentleman. And if he persists on his mistake, he is rascal. He is a rascal. So he is a gentleman. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- July 18, 1975, San Francisco
Saturday, May 1, 2010
"Colleges For Character Needed"
Los Angeles, June 23, 1975
Prabhupada: Where is Bahulasva? I have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic Science?
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So what is the actual program?
Bahulasva: That was not completed, Prabhupada. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.
Prabhupada: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?
Bahulasva: Who has...? Dharmadhyaksa has done the analytical breakdown.
Prabhupada: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we want your direction on how to actually do it.
Prabhupada: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?
Bahulasva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Krsna consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, that's why they want us to join.
Prabhupada: But we cannot join like that way.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, no. On our own standards.
Bahulasva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.
Prabhupada: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guna. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.
Dharmadhyaksa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?
Prabhupada: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brahmanas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulasva: Two aratiks a day, sixteen rounds -- these would be also course requirements.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the study of theology, Srila Prabhupada, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break]
Bahulasva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...
Prabhupada: A brahmana's business is pathan pathan yajan yajan danah pratigrahah. Brahmana means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brahmana's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called pathan pathan. Then yajan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danah pratigrahah. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brahmana. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Krsna said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahih. Antar means internally, and bahih means external. We... That chant, that acamana mantra?
apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. [break] We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. [break] ...not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Krsna consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg. 18.46]. One can get perfection, even becoming a sudra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brahmanas can become Krsna conscious. No. The sudras also can become, provided he is guided by the brahmana. [break] At the present moment the whole human society is full of sudras. There is no brahmanas. So you have to train real brahmanas. [break] ...how respectfully received that Sudama Vipra, not that because he was a caste brahmana.
Tamala Krsna: Devotee.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-hitaya krsnaya govindaya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brahmana means having a two cents thread. Not that brahmana. Vipratve sutram eva ca. "To become a brahmana, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brahmana: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brahmana. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pancaratriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire -- he wants to get Krsna consciousness -- so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Brahmananda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: If that stops...
Prabhupada: Then it is finished.
Bahulasva: That verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Which verse?
Bahulasva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guna. And smoke means rajo-guna, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guna. So you have to go still above. That is called suddha-sattva-guna. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upasate. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again maya. There are two things: Krsna and maya. If Krsna fire is extinguished, then maya, ignorance, darkness. Two things.
krsna-bhuliya-jiva bhoga-vancha kare
pasate mayara tare japatiya dhare
As soon as you forget Krsna, then maya is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. maya, Krsna. If you are not in Krsna, then you are in maya. And if you are in Krsna, there is no maya. Yahan krsna, surya-tahan, nahi mayara adhikara. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Krsna, there is no nescience."
krsna surya-sama, maya andhakara,
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
You understand Bengali?
Harikesa: I know that verse.
Prabhupada: That's... You know it eternally?
Harikesa: I hope so.
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that mayara nahi adhikara, no more jurisdiction of maya. That is perfect.
Bahulasva: We must keep very high standards.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable.
Revatinandana: Seaweed.
Sudama: Clams.
Jayatirtha: It's full of barnacles.
Revatinandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.
Prabhupada: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupada: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brahmana, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brahmana, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmadhyaksa: Nineteen...
Prabhupada: '62.
Dharmadhyaksa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmananda: When was the union started?
Bahulasva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupada: '62.
Bahulasva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book.
Prabhupada: I think it is '62. So what is the result?
Bahulasva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up.
Prabhupada: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...karad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformation, that makes a twice-born. [break] ...na jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah. Everyone is born sudra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is sudra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved viprah. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brahmana. This is the process. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. And then, after becoming a brahmana, when he understands Krsna, then he becomes Vaisnava. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatam api siddhanam, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Krsna. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Krsna. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Krsna, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupada: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmananda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Bahulasva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's it. Vedic science.
Dharmadhyaksa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupada: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalini-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupada: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupada: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Krsna conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Krsna conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Krsna. Krsna says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Krsna. Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
Anyone who does not submit to Krsna, he is useless, duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah. So why we shall give respect to the naradhamas, duskrtinas, mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnana? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Krsna conscious person.
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
"Vaisnava thakura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaisnava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaisnava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, janmaobi jadi iccha to hara, kita-janma hau jaha das bhakta tunhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kita-janma hau jaha das tunhara. This is Vaisnava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaisnava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahma who is not a devotee." So this Vaisnava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaisnava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaisnava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Krsna, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupada: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."
Prabhupada: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?
Satsvarupa: No, we have our own science.
Prabhupada: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarupa Damodara has said, "Krsna, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulasva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupada: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Krsna. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Krsna. That is stated in the sastra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Krsna. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brahmana, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner -- his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Brahmananda: Tagore?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kuteko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uska mutton chop banaiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy.
Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but...
Prabhupada: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Is it not like...?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.
Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.
Brahmananda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God...
Prabhupada: Is woman.
Brahmananda: Yes. (laughter)
Jayadvaita: That's tumi.
Prabhupada: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.
Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion...
Prabhupada: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog -- the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,
yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravindayor
nava-nava-(rasa-)dhaman(y udyatam) rantum asit
tad-avadhi bata nari-sangame (smaryamane)
bhavati mukha-vikarah susthu nisthivanam (ca)
So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spite on it." This is devotee. [break] ...whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hrdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Mohammedans, they say, "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)
Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is...
Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupada: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamala Krsna: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: You're abnormal.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupada: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Krsna consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupada: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupada: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know that Krsna is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something...
Prabhupada: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Krsna. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty.
Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sadhu. In India I run into hundreds of sadhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathura and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.
Prabhupada: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmananda: Has a house.
Jayatirtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupada: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmananda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmananda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: What is that man craft?
Harikesa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupada: That they did in respect of moon also.
Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.
Prabhupada: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayadvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break]
Prabhupada: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupada: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmananda: It's a big business.
Prabhupada: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.
Bahulasva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupada, they cannot make food grow without rain.
Prabhupada: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals.
Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So...
Jayatirtha: Yes, Krsna has no shortage of energy.
Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air.
Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.
Prabhupada: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Just try to understand Krsna, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Krsna, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim upasya, ye klisyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Krsna consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Tesam klesala evavasisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. This is science. bambharambhe laghu-kriya. So our Ramesvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice -- you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.
Ramesvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is...
Devotee: In fifteen days. [break]
Prabhupada: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.
Brahmananda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break]
Prabhupada: ...picture.
Brahmananda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."
Jayatirtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?
Prabhupada: No, I can go there.
Brahmananda: Well, we'll call him today.
Jayatirtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.
Jayatirtha: That would be very good. [break]
Prabhupada: ...purchased a house here?
Jayatirtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.
Prabhupada: Oh, from London?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Jayatirtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.
Prabhupada: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri?
Jayatirtha: Patty.
Prabhupada: Patty. [break] ...school building.
Brahmananda: Yes, Venice High School. [break]
Prabhupada: ...ten thousand dollar prize...
Jayatirtha: The race track.
Brahmananda: They are betting, gambling.
Jayatirtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have no good business.
Jayatirtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more.
Prabhupada: They also get good excise tax from liquor.
Jayatirtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.
Brahmananda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.
Prabhupada: Germany?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.
Brahmananda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.
Prabhupada: Scientific. (laughter)
Brahmananda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break]
Jayatirtha: They went on strike.
Brahmananda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupada: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmananda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatirtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmananda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupada: Occupying the churches?
Jayatirtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmananda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupada: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmananda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupada: It is called satyagraha.
Jayatirtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.
Prabhupada: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...
Prabhupada: Prostitute's house.
Brahmananda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.
Prabhupada: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatirtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmananda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda -- and actually it's a fact -- that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: "No one should ride the subway."
Prabhupada: Then that there will be another problem.
Brahmananda: Now there will be increase of crime.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway...
Brahmananda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...troubled water. Troubled water.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water.
Brahmananda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavananda Maharaja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.
Prabhupada: So Bhavananda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.
Brahmananda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break]
Prabhupada: ...everything will be all right. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles
Prabhupada: Where is Bahulasva? I have read that your program. What is that? College of Vedic Science?
Bahulasva: Yes.
Prabhupada: So what is the actual program?
Bahulasva: That was not completed, Prabhupada. That's just a description of the courses. Yet we have to add a biography about Your Divine Grace, description of the disciplic succession, the activities of ISKCON, and how the college relates to ISKCON. That was simply an explanation of what courses would be given and how they would be structured.
Prabhupada: That's nice. [break] How it will be conducted? The idea is very nice. Who has analyzed?
Bahulasva: Who has...? Dharmadhyaksa has done the analytical breakdown.
Prabhupada: Oh, analysis is done nice, of the study.
Dharmadhyaksa: Srila Prabhupada, we want your direction on how to actually do it.
Prabhupada: Actually our, that you have already mentioned, that "Example is better than precept." Our whole process is following the example of predecessors, nothing independent. So that principle should be followed. We do not accept any precept who is free from the predecessors. Do you follow?
Bahulasva: Uh huh.
Prabhupada: Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. This is the secret of devotional service: nothing to do independent. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the particular, specific qualification of Krsna consciousness. How they are doing? They have got so many other institutions. So what is the result? The Graduate Theological Union... So I saw so many names. What they are doing?
Dharmadhyaksa: Well, that's why they want us to join.
Prabhupada: But we cannot join like that way.
Dharmadhyaksa: Oh, no. On our own standards.
Bahulasva: We will be independent of that group. They will not dictate anything to us.
Prabhupada: Yes. Let him come. I shall talk with him.
Bahulasva: Dr. Judah now is in a theological convention in Boston, and he'll be getting back on Tuesday. So he said he'll come down then immediately.
Prabhupada: Regulative principle is the groundwork foundation of everything. Academic career has nothing to do with it. [break] ...bhaktasya kuto mahad guna. Anyone who is not factual devotee, his good qualification, academic qualification, has no value.
Dharmadhyaksa: Many of the students at the Graduate Theological Union, they might want to come to our college to take just one or two courses. Would it be all right for them to do that?
Prabhupada: No, everyone is welcome. But they must see what is our ideal. Then one day they will also come. So our ideal should be always there, not that we make some compromise. Then it will not be effective.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the catalogue we say that to get a degree one must be following the regulative principles, that that is as much an important requirement as the study, academic study.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is very important thing. Otherwise, just like in India, there are caste brahmanas, but they have no ideal, and therefore it is not working.
Bahulasva: Two aratiks a day, sixteen rounds -- these would be also course requirements.
Dharmadhyaksa: In the study of theology, Srila Prabhupada, there is a section called phenomenology, and phenomenology means the study of the actual practices. So actually, they already have this, but they don't actually practice themselves in their schools. But in our schools we would demand practice. [break]
Bahulasva: ...could also learn what is Deity worship, how it should be performed. They'd have to learn about chanting...
Prabhupada: A brahmana's business is pathan pathan yajan yajan danah pratigrahah. Brahmana means he is learned himself. He is a very erudite scholar. That is brahmana's first qualification. And he makes others also scholars, not that he remains himself a scholar. This is called pathan pathan. Then yajan yajan. Yajan means he worships the Deity, and he teaches others how to worship. Danah pratigrahah. He accepts charity from others, contribution, and he gives it to others. That we have mentioned, I think. What he gets in the day, he gives in the night. So these are six principles to become a brahmana. Otherwise, if he gets the degree and he smokes, he does not follow, he does not act... Because catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Krsna said, "The four divisions are according to quality and work." Whether he is qualified, that will be proved by his work, not that he has taken the degree, and now he is smoking. That is going on. Academic means this. They get the degrees and after that they do all nonsense. That is academic. But this Vedic culture is not like that. He must act. Then it will be all right. [break] ...the western culture, the idea is "Never mind whatever his private character. We don't mind. He has passed Ph.D, so let him become teacher." This is western culture. "By privately, he may be rascal. It doesn't matter." That is not brahminical culture. There is no "private" or "public." Antar bahih. Antar means internally, and bahih means external. We... That chant, that acamana mantra?
apavitrah pavitro va
sarvavastham gato 'pi va
yah smaret pundarikaksam
sa bahyabhyantara-sucih
Bahya means external, and abhyantara means internal, not duplicity. That bahya, externally something, and internally something, that will not be successful. Bahyabhyantaram sucih. Sucih means purified, brahmana. And who is not purified, he is mucih. [break] We have to present an ideal institution, not that we make compromise with everybody. That is not our business. We don't want stars. We want moon. What is the use of millions of stars? Get one moon. That is sufficient. [break] ...not expect everyone to become brahmana. That is not possible. Because the three qualities are working, you cannot make all the population on the modes of goodness. That is not possible. There must be people in passion and ignorance. Otherwise, why Krsna says, catur-varnyam, four division? He could have done one kind of men. But all of them can be utilized in Krsna consciousness if they are guided properly. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya samsiddhim labhate narah [Bg. 18.46]. One can get perfection, even becoming a sudra, provided he is properly guided, not that only the brahmanas can become Krsna conscious. No. The sudras also can become, provided he is guided by the brahmana. [break] At the present moment the whole human society is full of sudras. There is no brahmanas. So you have to train real brahmanas. [break] ...how respectfully received that Sudama Vipra, not that because he was a caste brahmana.
Tamala Krsna: Devotee.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was so respectful to the brahminical culture. Many places it is described. Therefore His another name is namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca, jagad-hitaya krsnaya govindaya. In the Kali-yuga the so-called brahmana means having a two cents thread. Not that brahmana. Vipratve sutram eva ca. "To become a brahmana, just have a thread, sacred thread, and then do all nonsense." That kind of is not required. That is Kali-yuga brahmana: "I have got the sacred thread. I have become brahmana. Now I can do all nonsense. Never mind." That will not help. [break] ...giving sacred thread on the Pancaratriki-vidhi, the same principle. There is a little spot, fire. Fan it. The process of fanning. But the fanning is stopped; then small spot of fire also extinguished. It will have no effect because the small fire cannot do anything. It must be blazing fire. So our this process... We are accepting from the most fallen condition. Because he has little spark of fire -- he wants to get Krsna consciousness -- so our process is: "Fan it." And then it must be blazing fire. But if you say that "Now that small fire is sufficient," that will not act. It must be blazing fire. A small fire is the potency. But potency should be brought to... Just like wood. There is fire. Everyone knows. But that will not serve your purpose. Fuel wood, unless there is fire... So there is fire, but it has to be increased. The wood... First of all set fire. Then there will be smoke. The smoke is also not fire. Smoke is another condition, symptom of fire, but smoke is not fire. The smoke must come into blazing fire. Then it can act.
Brahmananda: The fanning, that is the devotional practices.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Brahmananda: If that stops...
Prabhupada: Then it is finished.
Bahulasva: That verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Which verse?
Bahulasva: That verse about how wood is better than raw earth and fire is better than wood?
Prabhupada: Yes. Fire is better than smoke. Smoke is better than wood. Wood means tamo-guna. And smoke means rajo-guna, "Now it is coming." And fire means sattva-guna. So you have to go still above. That is called suddha-sattva-guna. Here, simply blazing fire, it may also extinguish, but the platform where it is never extinguished, that is spiritual platform. That is spiritual. That is not material. Not only fire, but ever-blazing fire. That is spiritual platform. You cannot stop even, "Oh, here is now fire." It must be ever-blazing fire. Then it will act. But that is said when there is no chance of extinction. Nitya-yukta upasate. That is stated in the Srimad Bhagavad-gita, nitya-yukta, ever-existing, eternal. That is wanted. Sometimes our devotees fall down because he has not come to that platform, ever-existing. Therefore the fire extinguished. That is possible, but everyone should be very, very careful that the fire may not be extinguished. Then again maya. There are two things: Krsna and maya. If Krsna fire is extinguished, then maya, ignorance, darkness. Two things.
krsna-bhuliya-jiva bhoga-vancha kare
pasate mayara tare japatiya dhare
As soon as you forget Krsna, then maya is there, "Yes, please come here." Finished. There is no two, er, three. maya, Krsna. If you are not in Krsna, then you are in maya. And if you are in Krsna, there is no maya. Yahan krsna, surya-tahan, nahi mayara adhikara. That is our Back to Godhead motto, "Where there is Krsna, there is no nescience."
krsna surya-sama, maya andhakara,
yahan krsna tahan nahi mayara adhikara
[Cc. Madhya 22.31]
You understand Bengali?
Harikesa: I know that verse.
Prabhupada: That's... You know it eternally?
Harikesa: I hope so.
Prabhupada: (laughing) That's all right. So we have to set such institution that mayara nahi adhikara, no more jurisdiction of maya. That is perfect.
Bahulasva: We must keep very high standards.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. There is also, vegetable.
Revatinandana: Seaweed.
Sudama: Clams.
Jayatirtha: It's full of barnacles.
Revatinandana: And mussels also. The black ones are called mussels. And also crabs.
Prabhupada: (speaks to someone in Hindi) So you were hearing me talking just now?
Indian guest: Oh yes, Swamiji. Listening, part of the conversation I heard. [break] ...these college courses and units, and I realize that to teach a religious course which is a Vedic culture first needs devotion, second needs knowledge. And I need both of them. I lack both of them. And this is... But still, I can support this kind of...
Prabhupada: That I was explaining. Because you have a little desire to know, so that we have to take, a small fire, and we have to fan it. Then it will come, blazing fire. Kali-yuga means actually there is no brahmana, but whenever there is a little tendency of becoming brahmana, we take it, accept. Otherwise there is no question of pushing on this movement. Wherever there is little chance, we take advantage. That is our process. [break] Initiation means just to see, "Here is a little chance. He is coming forward. Take it, accept him, and fan it." This is initiation, not that "Now I am initiated, I become perfect." [break] Theological Union, when it was started.
Dharmadhyaksa: Nineteen...
Prabhupada: '62.
Dharmadhyaksa: There are schools in the theological union that go back to 1850. In other words, there are... Around ten schools make up the union.
Brahmananda: When was the union started?
Bahulasva: 1952, I think.
Prabhupada: '62.
Bahulasva: No, '52 I think. The date is in that book.
Prabhupada: I think it is '62. So what is the result?
Bahulasva: They haven't produced any pure devotees. Actually, Dr. Judah says that we will add a lot of life to that union because all these other groups are dried up.
Prabhupada: Well, dried up, but they must agree to follow. Otherwise, it is dead. [break] ...karad bhaved dvijah. Samskara, reformation, that makes a twice-born. [break] ...na jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, vedo-pathad bhaved vipro brahma janatiti brahmanah. Everyone is born sudra, and by undergoing the reformation process, he becomes twice-born. The father is the spiritual master, and the mother is Vedic knowledge. First birth is ordinary father and mother. That even cats and dogs gets. Everyone gets father and mother. Without father and mother, there is no question of birth. That janma is sudra janma. Then, when he gets second birth by the spiritual father, then he becomes a dvija, twice-born. Again birth. Then he is allowed to study the Vedic literatures. Vedo-pathad bhaved viprah. And when, by studying, he understand the Brahman, then he becomes brahmana. This is the process. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. And then, after becoming a brahmana, when he understands Krsna, then he becomes Vaisnava. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. Siddha means to understand Brahman, and yatatam api siddhanam, and after becoming siddha, one who drives further ahead, out of many of them, one can understand Krsna. So we are aiming to that destination, to understand Krsna. And then it will be perfect. And as soon as you understand Krsna, you are fit for going back to home, back to Godhead. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. [break] ...headquarter (Hindi)?
Indian guest: San Jose, San Francisco (Hindi), southern peninsula. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) It is jumping of the monkeys. In my book, it was published in 1958. (Hindi conversation) I don't believe all these rascals. Otherwise, how could I write? Later on, in San Francisco some press reporter asked me, "What is your opinion?" And, "This is all foolish waste of time and money." It was published. [break] We are conditioned. We call ourself "conditioned soul." So whatever condition is made by nature or by God, you cannot overcome them. That is futile attempt. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass the condition of material nature. Foolishly, you may declare very great independent. But completely under the grip of material nature. Everything, there is a process. Just like you have come to U.S.A. You have come through a process, immigration. Can anyone come here without going through the process?
Indian guest: No.
Prabhupada: And how you can go to the moon planet? Independently, without going through the process. [break] ...nineteen hundred fifty-eight, I said, "This is all childish." So I am not a scientist. How did I say? On what standing?
Indian guest: There is a difference in nomenclature. Just to resolve the conflict in my mind and (Hindi conversation).
Brahmananda: You said it was a waste of time, and now they have stopped. They are doing it.
Prabhupada: Yes. So how I predicted? I am not a scientist. How did I say it?
Bahulasva: On the strength of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's it. Vedic science.
Dharmadhyaksa: First the scientists told the political leaders that "You let us go to the moon, and we will give you all sorts of benefits." Now they have not produced any benefits, so the political leaders won't give them any more money.
Prabhupada: That is good. They have come to their senses. All the so-called scientists, they should be dismissed, kicked out.
Devotees: (laughter) Jaya!
Nalini-kantha: Then they can work in the field.
Prabhupada: All impractical.
Indian guest: We will bring them in this movement. We will persuade them and just convince them that they need this.
Prabhupada: That kicking out will convince them. Otherwise, they will not be convinced. So long they are in the post, they will never be convinced. But when they are kicked out, when they are street dog, then they will be... [break] Otherwise, you can pass resolution, the senators. When the senators come for vote, you tell them, "First of all dismiss all these things. Then we shall give you vote. Otherwise no more vote." Then they will be also. And vote has become cheap. Samstutah purusah pasuh. That example I was giving, that small animals and big animal. The lion is a big animal, and he is afraid of by the small animals, jackals, cats and dogs. So out of fear, they are giving vote. But giving vote to whom? To an animal. So how they can be happy? A small animal is giving vote to the big animal. But suppose a big animal, a lion, he is very powerful. Does it mean he is human being? He is animal. So the small animals may be afraid of that big animal, but the human being knows that he is animal. That's all. He doesn't care for this animal. The animal may be very strong, but that does not mean he will be given any credit of human being. No. That is not possible. So in this animal civilization there are many strong, big animals. So they are voted by the small animals, but we are not going to vote that he is very important figure. No. We immediately reject. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. "One who is not Krsna conscious, he is useless." That's all. We are not going to echo the small animals. That is not possible. We reject, "Oh, he is animal." That's all. So our test is whether one is Krsna conscious. You can say that "If you are not a big animal, that does not mean that you are a big man." That is... We admit. But we have got our Krsna. Krsna says, "Here is a rascal." And so we say, "Here is a rascal." That's all. On the strength of Krsna. Krsna says,
na mam duskrtino mudhah
prapadyante naradhamah
mayayapahrta-jnana
asuram bhavam asritah
[Bg. 7.15]
Anyone who does not submit to Krsna, he is useless, duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah. So why we shall give respect to the naradhamas, duskrtinas, mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnana? We shall not give any. We shall respect only Krsna conscious person.
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
"Vaisnava thakura, you just accept me as your dog," Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings. That is success wanted. "If you accept me as your dog, that is my success."
vaisnava thakura, tomara kukura
bhuliya janaha more
Our endeavor is just to become a dog of a Vaisnava, not to become an animal like lion. We remain a dog, but of a Vaisnava. And we refuse to become a big animal like lion. This is our philosophy. Another song is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, janmaobi jadi iccha to hara, kita-janma hau jaha das bhakta tunhara: "I do not know what is my next life. That depends on Your consideration. But if you think that I must take another birth or another many births, it doesn't matter. Only I request You that You make me an insignificant ant in the house of a devotee." Kita-janma hau jaha das tunhara. This is Vaisnava aspiration, that If become an ant under the protection of a Vaisnava, that is also successful. And I don't want to become a Brahma who is not a devotee." So this Vaisnava philosophy is very accurate. Therefore this life of a Vaisnava begins with surrender, not the challenge. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is Vaisnava. Christ also said that "Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek." Is it not? He never said it is for the lion and elephant. The material disease means we have challenged Krsna, God, "Oh, what is God? We can live independently." And that is material scientist. They are trying to prove, "There is no God. We can create everything in the laboratory." And that is their foolishness.
Indian guest: Yeah, there are many, many atheist. I know that.
Prabhupada: Their whole propaganda is atheism. Therefore we are not very favorably disposed, the so-called scientists. Their whole propaganda is how to prove there is no God. That is their only aim. I mean, people say that: Oh, now nobody is going to talk of God. Talk of science." They say like that. Is it not?
Satsvarupa: Dr. Radhakrishnan said, "Religion won't be accepted unless it can be accepted in terms of science."
Prabhupada: So, religion is not science? We are following blindly?
Satsvarupa: No, we have our own science.
Prabhupada: No own science. This is science. They are following blindly, nonsense, the Radhakrishnan and company. We are following... Therefore our Dr. Svarupa Damodara has said, "Krsna, the greatest scientist." We are following the greatest scientist. They are rascals. They are following the false scientist.
Bahulasva: They have never seen the atom, but they believe in it.
Prabhupada: Atom, atom not question of seeing. You can count all the atoms throughout the universe; still, you cannot understand what is Krsna. You may be so great scientist that you can count each and every atom within the universe, but still, you shall remain unable to understand Krsna. That is stated in the sastra. Now here is sand. You can say, "There are so many sands." And this is only a small beach, but you can say how many sands and atoms are there within the universe. You can become so qualified. But still, you are unqualified to understand Krsna. Radhakrishnan, Dr. Radhakrishnan was a good man, brahmana, but he was victimized by the western culture. He got some money from Oxford University. Therefore he took the westerner -- his father mother, that's all. That is his qualification. Whatever the westerners say, they will say, he will say, "Yes, this is science." Not only Dr. Radhakrishnan, all the big men of India, they thought like that.
Brahmananda: Tagore?
Prabhupada: Yes. Tagore also got his position because he got the Nobel Prize from western world. Therefore he was so much obliged. All the big, big men, governors, etcetera, he would invite at his home. He was rich man, zamindar. Not very rich but a descendant of rich. [break] ...became so enamored by the western people that there is a song, yo kuteko baralad galikiya uska tengri laya uska mutton chop banaiya: "A dog, because he is killed by the governor, so we have made mutton chop out of it. Take it." (laughter) The dog became so exalted because he was killed by the viceroy." This is their philosophy.
Indian guest: Rabindranath Tagore and all these big people, they were not pure devotees, but...
Prabhupada: They're big lions, that's all. And they are praised by the small cats and dogs. (laughter) [break] ...Rabindranath Tagore's Gitanjali he indirectly praises, "I love you," but he does not mention whom he loves. He does not know who is the lovable object. You have read his Gitanjali?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Is it not like...?
Indian guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Tumi, "You are." Who is that tumi? That he does not know.
Indian guest: Well, I respect him as a person or whatever, but he is not a devotee, and it is a rare occasion to hear a pure devotee.
Prabhupada: But our principle is who is not a devotee, he is not respectable.
Brahmananda: He says in that Gitanjali that the most beautiful creation of God...
Prabhupada: Is woman.
Brahmananda: Yes. (laughter)
Jayadvaita: That's tumi.
Prabhupada: So what is this? Everyone is seeing the beautiful, the most perfect creation of God, is a woman.
Indian guest: That's lust or maybe passion...
Prabhupada: That's all. So what is the difference between man and dog? The dog is also seeing another she-dog -- the most beautiful creation of God. The ass is also seeing the she-ass-most beautiful creation. So what is the difference between ass and dog and this? And a devotee says,
yad-avadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravindayor
nava-nava-(rasa-)dhaman(y udyatam) rantum asit
tad-avadhi bata nari-sangame (smaryamane)
bhavati mukha-vikarah susthu nisthivanam (ca)
So long I have become devotee, since then, as soon as I think of sex, I spite on it." This is devotee. [break] ...whole world is going on simply by this perverted vision: the woman is very beautiful for the man and the man is very beautiful to the woman. This is the knot, hrdaya-granthi. Otherwise how they will work? Reciprocally, they are seeing beautiful. Sometimes the women like big, big beard. Yes, they like. And they keep. The Mohammedans, they say, "We keep beard. Women like it." They don't want this shaven headed. Huh? What is your experience? (laughter)
Indian guest: Well, there is a lot more emphasis over here about sex and girls than it is...
Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Why do you say here?
Indian guest: In India... I come from a village, and they don't talk... Well, fathers, parents, elder brother, and priest... And it is very different.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean the thought of woman is absent. They may be more civilized. They don't talk loosely. But that does not mean he is free from the woman's beauty.
Indian guest: Yeah, they have it, but it is not that rampant. It is kind of suppressed a little bit.
Prabhupada: At least, they know. They are taught by the culture, "This is not good." But here they do not know that, that the thinking of woman is not good.
Tamala Krsna: They think if you don't think of a woman, then that is not good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: You're abnormal.
Indian guest: That's right. They think you are abnormal. That's right. Over there something like divorce and the crisis, one woman marrying ten husband or going around..., those kind of... I don't anybody in India who has been divorced. I don't know personally. So it's different level.
Prabhupada: No, amongst the mass of people in India, still there is Krsna consciousness. It is not vanished. Because by culture, by taking birth in India that is inherent. India is so great.
Indian guest: The one problem over there: it's very hard to find a pure devotee or real...
Prabhupada: Because their leaders have gone dead. The leaders are Jawaharlal Nehru and company.
Indian guest: They have destroyed. The Nehru family has destroyed India. He was atheist.
Prabhupada: Even Gandhi, even Gandhi.
Indian guest: Gandhi believed in God, but Nehru didn't believe in God.
Prabhupada: No, no, he does not know that Krsna is God. Everyone believes in God. That is another thing, but one must know who is God. That is advancement. Here also, the people say, "God, God is great." But as soon God comes, "Here I have come," they don't believe it.
Indian guest: These people are good chors, and actually they can steal something...
Prabhupada: Even Dr. Radhakrishnan he did not believe Krsna. So this is the disease. God comes personally and says, "Here I am." They won't believe. That is the difficulty.
Indian guest: Really, it is some kind of sanctifying to a person to come in contact with a real sadhu. In India I run into hundreds of sadhus, and I donate some money, but completely... Well, this poverty probably has brought this corruption, in that whole temple. I go to Benares and I go to Mathura and I go to any temple, Badnatham(?), and those people only they are after money.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian guest: This has been over the... I don't know how it can be corrected, those holy places.
Prabhupada: So you see, they are living within the sand... (laughter)
Brahmananda: Has a house.
Jayatirtha: That's a very fortunate crab.
Prabhupada: And these people say there is no life. There is only sand. [break] What is their attempt about going to Venus?
Brahmananda: Going to Venus? I think the Russians have sent some...
Indian guest: They are working on a joint venture, Russia and United States. They are going to rendezvous sometimes pretty soon.
Brahmananda: To Venus there is some attempt now, to go to Venus?
Indian guest: The Russians have attempted to land not a manned craft but unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: Huh? Man craft?
Indian guest: Unmanned craft.
Prabhupada: What is that man craft?
Harikesa: Just one ship without any people inside.
Indian guest: With instruments in there.
Prabhupada: That they did in respect of moon also.
Indian guest: In the beginning, yeah.
Prabhupada: Then why it is failure?
Indian guest: There is nothing there. That's what they say. (laughs)
Prabhupada: So... Then what is their scientific knowledge? If there was nothing there, why they attempted? Is that scientific knowledge?
Jayadvaita: They can pay us, and we'll tell them what's there. [break]
Prabhupada: Why they are attempting to go there?
Indian guest: They are saying they are trying to learn the universe creation, see the relationship between earth's soil and geology and the geology of the moon, if there is some relationship. If the evolution process came through in some kind of joint relationship, they can establish some kind of hereditary of evolution process. They are trying to... On the top of that, they came out with a lot of electronic and gadgets to go over there. And to do any kind of adventure like this they have to design all kinds of gadgetry. And those gadgetry, they claim, is useful to human being on the earth over here because that came out...
Prabhupada: The useful is that they have squandered so much money of the human being.
Brahmananda: It's a big business.
Prabhupada: And bluffed. That is usefulness.
Indian guest: They have spent hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in that process, certainly a lot more money than one can imagine.
Bahulasva: Even by studying the soil on the earth, Prabhupada, they cannot make food grow without rain.
Prabhupada: They cannot do anything. Simply they can bluff. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is being done by the nature. What they can do? These foolish rascals.
Indian guest: Certainly, nature got a whole lot of power.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Indian guest: They're looking for energy. Energy running short, and we are running short of energy for driving a car and driving the entire ocean over here. See all these big waves coming round. So...
Jayatirtha: Yes, Krsna has no shortage of energy.
Indian guest: No. All big hurricanes and they came and full of energy and... I'm not saying that's good, but... We can put a small little fan in a room to blow a little wind this much. And see a big wind comes in from the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: Everything is floating in wind, in air. Such a big cloud, floating in the air. It contains millions of tons of water but it is kept in air.
Indian guest: We try to heat the home in the winter season, and it is a hard time heating a home. We don't have energy, run short of energy. But summer comes and nature heats it up that we are just too hot. So the nature's energy supply is just unlimited. Science cannot even imagine a small fragment.
Prabhupada: Our science is stated in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. Just try to understand Krsna, and everything will be understood. So try to understand one, Krsna, and then you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavanti. [break] ...philosophy is, it is said, that bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim... sreya-srtim bhaktim upasya, ye klisyanti kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha means just trying to understand this, that, this, that, this, that, this, that. In this way they are wasting time and giving up devotional service to the Lord. So what is the result? Bhaktim udapasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye. Kevala-bodha. The duration of life is very short, and he is gathering knowledge by going to the moon. In this way he is wasting his time. So the result is that waste of time. That is their gain and nothing more. Just see that these people instead of teaching Krsna consciousness, they wanted to study, go to the moon planet to understand. The result is, their only result is, that they have labored so much, and that is their gain, nothing else. What other thing they have made. Tesam klesala evavasisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam. Just like you beat the skin of rice paddy. You will not get rice. Simply your labor, "Gad, gad, gad, gad," that will be your gain. So their only gain is that they have learned that in the moon there is dust like here, that's all. This is their... (laughs) As if we are very much eager to know that there is also dust in the moon. (laughs) And they bluff people selling ticket for going to moon planet. Pan American?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is going on. This is science. bambharambhe laghu-kriya. So our Ramesvara Prabhu, where is? You have got now machine arrangement, such nice -- you can produce daily one book. (laughter) And if you cannot do so then it is like that moon planet. Bambharambhe laghu-kriya. It is very nice to see that so many machines are..., but what is the result? If you produce one book daily, then these machines are properly utilized.
Ramesvara: We will produce whatever you translate the same day, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Now you can produce the fifteen books which is...
Devotee: In fifteen days. [break]
Prabhupada: Find out how to do it. Simply you don't be satisfied that you have got so many nice machines. [break] ...the Baptist Church vehicle is there, that bus.
Brahmananda: There's a bus there of First Baptist Church. [break]
Prabhupada: ...picture.
Brahmananda: That red poster there on the board, "Talk, rock, and jazz."
Jayatirtha: It looks like some sort of a concert they're advertising. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Jayatirtha: You wanted George Harrison to come and visit you?
Prabhupada: No, I can go there.
Brahmananda: Well, we'll call him today.
Jayatirtha: Yes, we will try to contact him. When I was in London, Mukunda was saying that now it will be very good if George will sign over this manor to us because the Indian community is coming forward.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know that. So I will talk with him.
Jayatirtha: That would be very good. [break]
Prabhupada: ...purchased a house here?
Jayatirtha: Yes. Somewhere, I think, in Beverly Hills. He has moved here now from London.
Prabhupada: Oh, from London?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Who is his new wife? Do you know? He has a new wife.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Jayatirtha: Apparently, she is more religiously minded than the last one.
Prabhupada: The last one was religiously? Petri, Petri?
Jayatirtha: Patty.
Prabhupada: Patty. [break] ...school building.
Brahmananda: Yes, Venice High School. [break]
Prabhupada: ...ten thousand dollar prize...
Jayatirtha: The race track.
Brahmananda: They are betting, gambling.
Jayatirtha: Gambling is becoming much more widespread now in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, they have no good business.
Jayatirtha: The government is using it as a good way of getting more taxes and profits. The government is handling all the lotteries and horse races themselves now more and more.
Prabhupada: They also get good excise tax from liquor.
Jayatirtha: Yes. A very big source of revenue.
Brahmananda: In Germany the government supports prostitution.
Prabhupada: Germany?
Brahmananda: Yes.
Jayatirtha: Yes. They opened up their own prostitution houses, the government.
Brahmananda: They now have a skyscraper in Germany. The skyscraper is a brothel, and you drive your car in, and they have television screens. And you see on the television screen what girl you like.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes, and then you pick up the phone, and you..., they tell you the room number, and then you go in the elevator.
Prabhupada: Scientific. (laughter)
Brahmananda: Yes, it's very advanced. They call them erotic centers. [break]
Jayatirtha: They went on strike.
Brahmananda: France is not as developed. In France the prostitutes...
Prabhupada: Well, in France you can get prostitute on the street. They are standing.
Brahmananda: Well, that's a bad system for the prostitutes because...
Jayatirtha: They've gone on strike, saying that the government is not treating them properly.
Brahmananda: They're not being protected by the government like they are in Germany. So they have gone on strike by going into the churches and occupying the churches. So it has created a big...
Prabhupada: Occupying the churches?
Jayatirtha: The Catholic churches.
Brahmananda: They go on strike. They go there and they won't go out.
Prabhupada: That is called Gandhi's policy.
Brahmananda: Yes, gherao, or something like that.
Prabhupada: It is called satyagraha.
Jayatirtha: They are trying to get the Catholic church to support their demands.
Prabhupada: That means Catholic church is supposed to support these prostitutes?
Jayatirtha: Yes.
Brahmananda: Well, actually, in France there is another now, a leading church official, a bishop. He was found. He died in the...
Prabhupada: Prostitute's house.
Brahmananda: Prostitutes, yes. And in Germany the newspapers gave this very big publicity, that "Just see how France is..." They took the opportunity of criticizing that "Here is the French church." Another big official, he was found naked.
Prabhupada: And we say, "No prostitution." [break] ...the problems will come, one after another. This is a bad civilization. It is already a dangerous place, material world, and this bad civilization is creating more dangerous problems.
Jayatirtha: Now everyone is terrified. In New York they published... The police and the fire department published a pamphlet saying that New York is now called "fear city." And they pass them out to the passengers that come in on the airplanes and the buses, saying that "You should be very careful. You should not walk the streets at night and..."
Brahmananda: Because the New York City is financially bankrupt they are firing so many policemen, firemen,...
Prabhupada: Accha.
Brahmananda: Yes. So the policemen, in retaliation, they are making propaganda -- and actually it's a fact -- that "Now New York is very unsafe, and no one should go out on the street after six o'clock."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Brahmananda: "No one should ride the subway."
Prabhupada: Then that there will be another problem.
Brahmananda: Now there will be increase of crime.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not only crime, if there is no passenger in the subway...
Brahmananda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: ...troubled water. Troubled water.
Brahmananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you fish, catch fish. The houses will be cheaper. Now, in this crisis, the house, cost of the big, big house, is cheaper. So you want a big house. You can... Catch fish in the troubled water.
Brahmananda: Oh, yes. [break] ...Bhavananda Maharaja, he did not give a very good report about New York, that the devotees there are not very enthusiastic. He says he was there one day, they collected... The temple collected only $125, which is ridiculous.
Prabhupada: So Bhavananda has given report to the GBC. Now you do the needful.
Brahmananda: Well, he's heading back towards New York now. [break]
Prabhupada: ...everything will be all right. (end)
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- June 23, 1975, Los Angeles
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